# Anyone use a doe as nanny that has eaten pups previously?



## newchance360 (Nov 3, 2016)

I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of this situation.
Veronica the doe is mother to two older daughters and Veronica had her second litter 5 weeks ago. The first daughter "Minnie" gave birth a little over a week ago. Minnie became extremely ill and didn't appear to have any milk as no milk bellies were seen over a period of time.
As I didn't have another nursing mom to use in a last ditch effort I removed Minnie to give her care and I put Veronica in with the pups to see if there was any way to save them as she was always such an incredible mom. (I rubbed Veronicas scent from bedding all over the pups and put some nest material with their smell in with Veronica before doing this). I was hoping that with some suckling she would start producing milk again. She seemed to take the job immediately. She got busy building her nest and went and laid on the pups for awhile before coming back out to work on the nest. 
The pups were very weak at this point. I left everyone alone overnight and to my dismay the next morning I found most of the pups dead and partially eaten. I feel horrible that I put them with her only to cause them pain and suffering. 
Veronica has never eaten a pup before this, everyone is always accounted for.

A question I have is that Veronicas other daughter "Mira" will be giving birth in about a week or so. I would like to give her a nanny as this is her first litter and it will be harder on her. I can't use Minnie as she is weak and still recovering. Do you think it would be wise or unwise to use Veronica as a nanny knowing she has eaten pups? Veronica has never been a nanny but her daughter Mira (the pregnant one) was a nanny to Veronicas second litter. 
I don't have any other females to use right now.

Should I:
*A*- use Veronica and just hope for the best? If so I would like to reintroduce them now so that they both have a week to settle in.
*or B* - Just take the chance that Mira will be ok on her own?

I'm worried that with her sister having had an issue that Mira may also get in trouble and get sick. A nanny would reduce strain on her.

Has anyone had something like this happen previously? If so, what did you do?
Advice greatly appreciated!~
D


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Id leave her on her own.Does don't need a nanny so unless space is an issue theres nothing to be gained and only potential risk to introduce although Veronica only behaved normally in fairness to her.


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## newchance360 (Nov 3, 2016)

Thank you for the reply! Space is not an issue at all. I just wanted to avoid Mira getting over tired or stressed. 
I will leave her alone and keep a very close eye on her. 
As for Veronica eating the weak babies, do you think this was a bad idea trying to use her as surrogate? Any other recommendations should something like this happen again? I always keep KMR on hand but have been told previously that its better to try a surrogate than to supplement.
I would love to learn from this!
Thank you again, I appreciate it!
D


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Mice won't get over tired or stressed out as long as you don't leave them with really large litters, and if the litter is really large then the health of the babies is more of a concern.

In general nannies are more for the owners peace of mind and their perception of it being less stressful for mum than anything else and in my opinion the risks that can come along with it are just not worthwhile. Even a simple thing like the nanny looking after the babies (which is adorable right?) can be harmful, because if the nanny is then the biological mum is not and she is the one with the milk with the nutrients that they need, so her spending less time with them is a bad thing.

The chances are that Veronica only ate pups that were already dead or very near dead, a mechanism to stop predators being attracted to the nest or get some much needed protein. For future reference though it would be better to cull than attempt to put with a mum that has either stopped lactating or has old milk. I know that sounds harsh but milk nutrients change over the milk cycle, at birth the milk is higher in proteins and fats than later on, so putting say a new born in with a mum that weaned her litter at 3 weeks will usually result in the babies showing signs of malnutrition such as hairless, poor growth etc (if they even survive) and overall not being very healthy.

Along those lines supplementing, or hand feeding of newborn mice has a very low success rate and even if you were to succeed then the chances are they would be a lot smaller and less healthy.

Giving babies over to a surrogate mum can work very well and I have done it quite a lot of times but as mentioned above you have to make sure that the litters were born at a similar time so the milk nutrients are similar.


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## FlufferNutter (May 6, 2016)

I don't use nanny does myself, I cull my litters to 6 or less earlier on, none of my does seem to struggle alone. But I wouldn't blame poor Ms. Veronica too harshly, she more than likely had no milk at that point, and you said the bubs were fading anyway, she didn't let nutrients go to waste, hardly the same as a full on litter munching.


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