# Ava and her Daughter



## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Basic info on each mouse for you guys.
Ava was born on the 4th of May 2012, her daughter is Topaz who was born on the 10th of September 2012. Both are Himilayans. Ava has had only 1 litter, Topaz has yet to be bred.

With that out of the way..
Ava has never been 100% after her litter, having a litter seemed to really take it out of her despite having culled the litter down to around 4. She became relatively boney but after weaning, she gained back all the weight she had lost and slightly more but still remained ever so slightly boney. One of her eyes became squinty and she has just never gotten back to the state of health she use to be. Her daughter has always been healthy except recently.
Both suddenly gained about 10g within a matter of days and I'm a little puzzled as to why.. While before they were a little pear shaped, they are now rather puffed up and round. It's hard to explain.. There poo is also pretty soft.

Diet hasn't changed, nor had the bedding or anything in the cage. I have not brought in any new mice since before Ava had her litter.
It could be nothing but I feel like something is wrong.


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## bonsai (Oct 14, 2012)

Hello Cordane.
I'm sorry for your two ill mice.
My first idea was that inner parasites like worms are the reason for the illness.
All I read about the symptomes fits together with your mice.
But I have no personal experiences with that.
You should bring a fecal sample to the vet to let it test.

Good luck for your mice.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Yeahh.. No vet around here would do that.
I have yet to find a vet who knows more about mice than I do and my knowledge of mice illnesses is minimal.


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## TrixYogurt (iM) (Oct 28, 2012)

If it is some kind of internal parasite, testing feces for worms or something should be standard practice for them. Even if its not a dog.

I hope they are both alright.


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## bonsai (Oct 14, 2012)

I agree with TrixYogurt.
Any vet would be able to to the test.
You could also buy bene-bac gel to regulate the gastro-intestinal tract.
But if there are really worms it would be no solution.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Well in theory, my mite treatment that I use is a cattle drench which also treats for internal parasites.
As for the bene-bac, I have never seen it in pet stores but I will ask about it next time I'm in town - if it isn't there, I'm afraid I won't be able to get it.


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

cordane if you can not find bene-bac look for yakult in the grocery store or other pro-biotic for humans its basically the same thing just comes under so many trade names.

can you post pics of the mice as I do not think it is internal parasites if you are using the cattle drench as that is more than likely ivermectin based.

Have you used the cattle drench on them since the litter.

Ava may be lacking in some vitamins or essential minerals and that would explain her not being 100 per cent after weaning as she has probably been such a good mum and given too much to the offspring.

As Topaz is showing similar symptoms my first course of treatment would be to treat for internal parasites and supply additional vitamins and trace minerals, keeping them as warm as possible.

If no change after a week then further investigations would need to be carried out, looking at every aspect of the husbandry including environmental. Not having a vet that entertains mice makes things more difficult in tracing down what is wrong.

Environmental issues may be anything from temp range being more than 10 degrees to air pressure to something like a change in disinfectant used for cleaning, to even things like soap you use to wash your hands basically anything that is not apparently connected to the mice themselves.

I have noticed with my mice humidity levels if above 65 per cent the mice start to look off colour abit but goes back to full health again once the humidity level drops to less than 60 per cent.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Cannot post pictures currently (it's almost 11pm). But for the time being, if you look at my "Current Guys and Gals" thread, there is a picture of both Ava and Topaz in there. They use to look and weigh the same as Sapphire and Opal.
I'll be purchasing a temperature gage thing with humidity reader next week I hope (I don't go to town often at all). I have treated them with my "mite" treatment spray since the litter a few times, the most recent being 1-2 weeks ago as I introduced Xia and her bubs into the group (even though they are housed in the same room, with any new introductions, I give them a 1 dose treatment).
The Drench I use is Cydectin which I don't believe is ivermectin based but a similar thing. As for their cage and such, nothing has changed. I'm still using the same everything I was back in September. Same disinfectant, same food, same toys. The only change is the currently, it's summer.

I would also assume that if it were worms or something, Xia and her bubs would likely have it or sapphire and opal who were in a litter born the day after Topaz (introduced at 10 days old) so they, in theory, would show some symptoms right?


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

As all the miice are housed together worms is a possibilty for all of them although some may be infested more than others and as such not necessarily show. You are right Cydectin it is similar to ivermectin just a different brand name.

Out of curiosity do you have a fan in the room that is circulating the air, whilst beneficial in circulating air also has low risk of spreading any air borne infections.

Looked at the pics and they do look healthy but only you will really know if something is not right, I have noticed in my mice and other rodents I have kept that worms are more common in spring / summer and in lactating does.

The poo being soft is an indication to digestive problem which may be a dietary thing too much fibre/protein etc for the mouses needs at present.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Nope, no fan. Well there is a fan but its never on - if it gets to hot during the day, I usually open the door but the room the are in is pretty sheltered so it never gets hot in there.
It's really just the sudden weight gain that has me wondering what is wrong really. Ava hasn't been 100% since her litter but I cannot pinpoint exactly why she doesn't seem 100%. 
Well.. No lactating does here.. 
Out of curiosity, why would a diet but fine for a mouse most of its life and then not be for a short amount of time?
If it helps, their seed mix diet consists of.. 2/7 oats, 2/7 cockatiel bird seed, 1/7 cat food, and the remaining 2/7s is a mix of wheat (milled and puffed), buckwheat, split peas, a Cheerio per mouse every time their bowl needs topping (every 2-3 days), uncooked pasta and I cannot remember the last thing.. They also get chicken whenever we buy it, scrambled and/or boiled egg when we have it and small bits of apple once a week as its the only fruit/vege they will eat.


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

Dietary requirements vary with all living things depending on various factors including age environment pregnancy etc. What we feed our animals is personal choice based on our current knowledge and suggestions from others whom have similar animals.

A varied diet is essential for all to obtain all the vitamins minerals and other requirements, feeding the same diet can cause dietary problems in certain circumstances. Mice like any other living creature are all individuals with their own personalities etc, like humans one diet for one may not be good for another.

Your current mix sounds good and well balanced, I personally do not give cheerios but use the cat kibble or dog kibble as a treat on a daily basis.

10g weight gain in a couple of days appears alot but could be due to the fact that they are actually getting the nourishment they require after dosing with the cydectin killing off any internal parasites and putting on abit of fat.

Besides worms the other alternative is I am sure you are aware may be due to internal growths ruling out the weight gain due to removal of worms and putting fat on, but even that would be strange for the two to have the same symptoms at the same time as they are not of the exact same age.

Just thought possible phantom pregnancies?


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