# Some Blackthorn Mice



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Dutch mice:


















































































Marten Sable doe:


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## Satin mouse (May 25, 2012)

these mice are excllent! how do you get them to stay still for these photos? lol


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Haha, they're just used to it


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## Fraction (Aug 29, 2011)

I love your mice, Sarah! Especially the agouti (?) dutch.

The marten sable mice look pretty interesting. Are they difficult to breed, moreso than a fox or tan?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Very nice. Dutch mice remind of of Dutch rabbits (although I guess that's the point).

How far is the tail stop supposed to go on Dutch mice?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Thank you! Yes, marten sables are veeery difficult. They breed well, well mine do anyway, but that's as far as it goes. They're so faulty it's unbelievable, I'm starting to think a perfect Dutch might be easier to achieve. They don't breed true so you get silver foxes in their litters and most of the time a mating seems to produce only one marten sable in a litter of foxes, although I've got lucky twice and had two litters with four or five marten sables in them. They cast unbelievably and get ugly lines and streaks in their coats. And they they have the general red problems of obesity etc. It's not very rewarding work. You get the odd nice one, like this doe, but so much rubbish. It's a lot like breeding Dutch really, except I love the Dutch a lot more and have a lot more patience for them :lol:

The tail stop *should* be halfway up the tail of a Dutch mouse. I've noticed that with a few exceptions, it tends to mirror the saddle. Low saddle = short tail pigment and vice versa.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

I've not been much of a fan of dutch mice, but your agouti dutch are really pretty!  Marten sables, on the other hand are one of my favourites, and yours are stunning!  It's so nice to see pics of such beautiful animals. (Nice, like it makes me want to go and lecture my puny little piddly eared beady eyed pet type girls to make a bit of effort and pop out a few magnificent typey British show mice, just to pleasantly surprise me. :/ ) :lol:


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

love the 8th one looks like its smiling


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

the marten sable is beautiful. it is interesting to hear how difficult they are to breed. are there photos of the unattractive faulty ones? every one i see posted is simply stunning.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

sys15 said:


> the marten sable is beautiful. it is interesting to hear how difficult they are to breed. are there photos of the unattractive faulty ones? every one i see posted is simply stunning.


Of course!

Here is one that is casting:









This one is much too dark on the belly and sides, and showing the typical dominant red obesity:









One with the required dark face and good shading, but a cream belly:









This buck had a white belly but he was too pale on top:


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

thanks! still attractive mice, if not as beautiful as the proper one.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

It was very interesting to see those mice, Sarah. I agree with Sys15 that they're still very beautiful mice, but their fault are clear. I can see why it would be so challenging to breed a "good" marten sable though!


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

So the desired Marten should have a white belly but as dark as possible on the top with the colours gradually merging on the sides?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes that's right


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

Your dutch mice is gorgeous, especially the argente one! 
I agree with Satin mouse, it is s hard to make them stay still long enough to photograph them :lol:


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm not sure I understand how the genetics produced the marten sable phenotype. You mentioned that they have the tan gene... but firstly, isn't the Ay dominant over a(t)? Also, even if it was incomplete dominance, wouldn't there be a more defined line separating the pale belly from the darker top? The shading is so smooth! Would this be more a result of something like umbrous?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I can't tell you why, just that it is that way 

Ay/at cch/cch is a marten sable and at/at (or at/a) cch/cch is a silver fox. When you breed two marten sables together you get marten sables and silver foxes in every litter. The same goes for nomal sables and black tans, it works the same. If it was down to umbrous rather than tan a marten sable x marten sable mating would result in marten sables and black selfs.


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