# Breeding what to what?



## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

So I'm already thinking about what pairing to do next but I am unsure. They are all in good health and older than 3 months.
I want to breed them to my coffee fox boy, (Siamese and Piebald black parents) and its a choice between my Siamese girl (Siamese and piebald black, same dad as fox, different mum) or my piebald black girl (piebald black for generations).
I'm just curious as to what colour babies I might get from each pairing.

I'm also thinking about breeding the Siamese to my other boy Basil who is a piebald something grey, I always forget what he is. (piebald agouti with piebald RY).

Any ideas?


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

breed the siblings together, see if you can figure out their c dilution genes (sounds like one is ch/ch the other is ce/ch?).

just my opinion, but unless you have a plan for diluted pieds, i'd work on getting your c dilutions into a self line and work on getting them out of the broken. i don't see much point in throwing more confusion into a litter (c dilutions plus whatever dilution turned your piebald grey plus agouti plus ee).


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

sys15 said:


> breed the siblings together, see if you can figure out their c dilution genes (sounds like one is ch/ch the other is ce/ch?).
> 
> just my opinion, but unless you have a plan for diluted pieds, i'd work on getting your c dilutions into a self line and work on getting them out of the broken. i don't see much point in throwing more confusion into a litter (c dilutions plus whatever dilution turned your piebald grey plus agouti plus ee).


So breed my Siamese to my to Piebald grey and Piebald black to my Fox
Then breed their babies together? Or breed both the siamese and piebald black to the fox and then their babies together?
I only have two plans for breeding colour wise. Light coloured pieds and any colour selfs.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Cordane said:


> sys15 said:
> 
> 
> > breed the siblings together, see if you can figure out their c dilution genes (sounds like one is ch/ch the other is ce/ch?).
> ...


sorry, i guess i should have said half sibs. the siamese to the coffee and the piebalds to each other. or just don't breed the piebalds at all (my bias showing,  )

if you really want light colored pieds, then just dumping a bunch of dilutions into pied will achieve that, i guess.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

sys15 said:


> sorry, i guess i should have said half sibs. the siamese to the coffee and the piebalds to each other. or just don't breed the piebalds at all (my bias showing,  )
> 
> if you really want light colored pieds, then just dumping a bunch of dilutions into pied will achieve that, i guess.


Personally my first pick for breeding is a self, any colour. I have never seen a self here other than beige. 
The main reason I want to breed my piebald black girl is because she has bigger ears than the rest of my girls and I'm hoping that will pass on. (She is pictures in my thread in current litters)


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Cordane said:


> Personally my first pick for breeding is a self, any colour.


well, assuming the siamese has a self background, it shouldn't be hard to get some. it might not show until the f2s, but breed her to anything that isn't homozygous c diluted and you're on the way.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

sys15 said:


> Cordane said:
> 
> 
> > Personally my first pick for breeding is a self, any colour.
> ...


I wish I knew more about their backgrounds. I'm happy to get a few more females but I have a feeling I will have to travel a lot further than my local petshop. 
My girl who just had the litter had a BEW mum but we think its just total spotting.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

sys15 said:


> Cordane said:
> 
> 
> > Personally my first pick for breeding is a self, any colour.
> ...


I wish I knew more about their backgrounds. I'm happy to get a few more females but I have a feeling I will have to travel a lot further than my local petshop. 
My girl who just had the litter had a BEW mum but we think its just total spotting.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

does the coffee fox buck have any white patches? if not he would be S/si so he carrys pied, if thats the case if you breed him to you Black pied doe who would be si/si you will have a 50% chance of getting non pieds like dad, but if he doe have any white patches you will get all pieds and i would asume he only has 1 copy of the tan gene at/a so with the black pied girl who will be a/a (unless she is actualy a black tan pied) you have again a 50% chance of getting more tans or getting slefs. We know the female has at least one C gene so that would be 50% non c diluted babies if she is C/C you wont get any c diluted babies.

So asuming the buck is at/a B/* ch/? D/* P/* S/si and the doe is a/a/ B/* C/* D/* P/* si/si you could get
Black Tan pied
Black Tan
Black Pied
Black Self
That is asuming they are not carrying anything else and the female is nto carry a c dilute gene and the buck has only 1 tan gene. If buck is a pied as well you wont get the selfs only pieds

So if you want a self and the coffie fo buck is not pied id breed the coffee fox buck to the Black Pied girl.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

are you sure the coffie foxs mother was a siamese? just wondering as you say the black pied farther produced a siamese girl when put to a siamese doe so that would mean he carryed siamese C/ch but he then produced the coffie boy when put to another siamese doe which would mean either he doesnt carry siamese (so the siamese girl he produced isnt siamese but black eye siamese aka colour point baige) or the coffies mother wasnt siamse (maby black eyed siam aka colour point baige). Do the siamese all have pink eyes?


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

PPVallhunds said:


> does the coffee fox buck have any white patches? if not he would be S/si so he carrys pied, if thats the case if you breed him to you Black pied doe who would be si/si you will have a 50% chance of getting non pieds like dad, but if he doe have any white patches you will get all pieds and i would asume he only has 1 copy of the tan gene at/a so with the black pied girl who will be a/a (unless she is actualy a black tan pied) you have again a 50% chance of getting more tans or getting slefs. We know the female has at least one C gene so that would be 50% non c diluted babies if she is C/C you wont get any c diluted babies.
> 
> So asuming the buck is at/a B/* ch/? D/* P/* S/si and the doe is a/a/ B/* C/* D/* P/* si/si you could get
> Black Tan pied
> ...


No white patches on my coffee fox other than the normal all white belly. The girl, I don't think she is a black tan pied, her belly is white with a black spot in the middle. If you like, I can take a picture of her belly. Thank you so much for explaining that in terms I can understand. I'd love to know how to write the locus symbol things in the right way and to know which one a mouse has. I must learn that. 
I would love to get a self, anything that isn't beige. I love the look of black tans too *drool*
The pied black, for the past 6 generations has been pied blacks.
I assume if my pied black was actually a pied black tan that she would have some tan showing on her belly?


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Just throwing something else into the mix here... You can and will get the range of colours possible from the combination of genes you have over time, that's just a matter of working out the genetics and pairing accordingly - however, what about keeping in mind the conformation/type characteristics of the mice you pair as well? Xia has ears with a lot of potential - they're nice and big, but just need a better shape and placement. Basil has gorgeous eyes. It's a long process before you get the best raits of each (because you also get bubs with the worst of each), but is should happen with careful selection. The only problem is that they're both marked, and you're wanting selfs...

I'm just mentioning this because it's rewarding to see you mice start standing out from the mice you get in pet shops.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Cordane said:


> No white patches on my coffee fox other than the normal all white belly. The girl, I don't think she is a black tan pied, her belly is white with a black spot in the middle. If you like, I can take a picture of her belly. Thank you so much for explaining that in terms I can understand. I'd love to know how to write the locus symbol things in the right way and to know which one a mouse has. I must learn that.
> I would love to get a self, anything that isn't beige. I love the look of black tans too *drool*
> The pied black, for the past 6 generations has been pied blacks.
> I assume if my pied black was actually a pied black tan that she would have some tan showing on her belly?


If she has a black sopt on her belly then yep she isnt tan, i thogut i would ask as sometimes it can be easy to not noitce a tan pied if the white parches are covering the belly, i had one who only had i timy bit not covered by white markings. So breed her to the coffie buck and you should get some black selfs and some black tans as well as black pieds and blacktan pieds, you will also know if your girl is carrying a c dilute if you get any c diluted babies.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

MojoMouse said:


> Just throwing something else into the mix here... You can and will get the range of colours possible from the combination of genes you have over time, that's just a matter of working out the genetics and pairing accordingly - however, what about keeping in mind the conformation/type characteristics of the mice you pair as well? Xia has ears with a lot of potential - they're nice and big, but just need a better shape and placement. Basil has gorgeous eyes. It's a long process before you get the best raits of each (because you also get bubs with the worst of each), but is should happen with careful selection. The only problem is that they're both marked, and you're wanting selfs...
> 
> I'm just mentioning this because it's rewarding to see you mice start standing out from the mice you get in pet shops.


Oh, I'm breeding for confirmation to of course. It will always play a part.
I was thinking about keeping one of basil's offspring if they have the nice big eyes and keeping one of xia's and my fox boys babies, if they have big ears, and then breeding them together.

I was pretty sure she wasn't a tan, one of my older females who is just a pet (she is 2) has tan on the outter side of her belly. So when she is on your hand, you can just see part of the tan. But otherwise she is white underneath.

How would I get Xia's offspring to have better shape and placement of their ears?


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Cordane said:


> How would I get Xia's offspring to have better shape and placement of their ears?


By either getting in a mouse who has better ears to breed them to or by just keeping the best ears from the litters you breed and breeding them tougher and keeping the best again and breeding them tougher. Slowerly you will get better ears.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

PPVallhunds said:


> Cordane said:
> 
> 
> > How would I get Xia's offspring to have better shape and placement of their ears?
> ...


Now I really wish importing mice was legal. It might be but I doubt anyone would be willing to ship/fly their mice from America/UK to NZ.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Can you import rodents into NZ or are they a banned like in Australia?


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

MojoMouse said:


> Can you import rodents into NZ or are they a banned like in Australia?


Banned. No rats/mice, reptiles, birds can be imported. The list goes on. *sigh*


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

You can understand it in relation to reptiles, and the necessity of preserving NZs fragile and unique ecosystems... BUT that's a bummer about the mice. You guys are going to improve your mice the hard, slow, (but rewarding) way like we have to here.

On the good side, you may have unusual genes pop up that aren't readily available OS. In Aus, we have some of the nicest long hairs, and a true manx gene that is fairly common. I know there's a rat breeder in NZ that has really spectacular long haired rats - so you never know what your mice will turn up!


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

MojoMouse said:


> You can understand it in relation to reptiles, and the necessity of preserving NZs fragile and unique ecosystems... BUT that's a bummer about the mice. You guys are going to improve your mice the hard, slow, (but rewarding) way like we have to here.
> 
> On the good side, you may have unusual genes pop up that aren't readily available OS. In Aus, we have some of the nicest long hairs, and a true manx gene that is fairly common. I know there's a rat breeder in NZ that has really spectacular long haired rats - so you never know what your mice will turn up!


My boy Basil has that.. inbetween coat. To short to be Angora, to long to be Standard. Niether of his parents had long coats, nor did any of his brothers. He is the only one.
Yes, it will take a long time to improve the mice here. I've got many years to work on it, I'm only 18. But yes, The next to breed will be Xia with Foxy and out of that, I will hopefully get a big eared self or black tan which will be bred with Basil in hope for a self, big eared, big eyed mouse. After that, I will go for a road trip around half of the North Island to find some good looking mice.


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