# Champagnes.....



## NaomiR

My light champagne doe littered in the early hours, I caught her cleaning up at about half 6 this morning, I counted about 11 but there could be more, why are my does having such big litters when they're supposed to be their first litters? :?

Anyway the Dad is my awesome Chunky and he's a fabulous colour so I really can't wait for them to be furry


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## Vivian

oh 11! that's a lot for the first litter.. i hope all babys will be hale and hearty all the time.

vivian


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## violet1991

i once had 14... and only 2 were does.. try that one LOL

nice, i like chams 

vi x


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## NaomiR

well she actually had 14 

so my litters have been 14, 11, 4 and now 14 lol


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## Vivian

hm my biggest litter was 18, but it was her first litter and i take 8 boys 3 days after the birth and the athers are oll girls...

but 11 ist verrry difficult ... but if she is a good mami, it will be all good ;-)

lg viv


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## NaomiR

babies are just getting some fur......Mummy doesn't want you to look :lol:


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## ian

Gorgeous. I love champagnes, I'm working on my first litter of champagne rump whites.


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## NaomiR

wowzers I didn't even know they existed in rumpies how lovely, I look forward to seeing them


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## ian

Rump whites are great because the rumpwhite gene is dominant so you can cross in selfs of any colour and eventually make rumpwhites of any colour. Obviously the paler colours dont work as you have to be able to clearly see the line of demarcation.

I've got two champagne rumpwhites already, both does. Both of them have a good amount of white but not good markings. They were a bit of a surprise and I got really lucky. One of them is definately pregnant I reckon she has about a week to go the other one doesnt have any signs of pregnancy yet.
Here they are as babies.


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## Cait

Ian I have just mated my 2 cham rw does to a cham rw buck as well, the place will be coming down with them as my granny would have said  I've also had a dove/silver doe and buck pop out of a litter as well, they are very attractive mice.


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## Vivian

hi nice micees ;-)

hm i thought you can't cros(?) a male rw and a female rw ..bcaucse of the lethal factor!?


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## Cait

Yes you can, the rw/rw babies are reabsorbed and never born. There is no danger to the mother whatsoever.


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## ian

I'm currious how a silver rumpwhite would look, is there much distinction? Obviously the skin will show the markings but when the fur comes in will it show?
I'm really excited about it I've got a good group of pink eyed does now but no pink eyed bucks so I'm going to have to wait one more generation before I start producing them properly. I'm really close however to having blue and blue tan rumpwhites (not keen on the tans!).

I've never liked red eyed animals at all but since these accidental champagnes popped out I'm really liking them, the colour is so soft and I no longer find the eyes menacing.

Vivian-there is a fatal factor but it causes death only in foetus (I think its 9 days into pregnancy?) so r/w x r/w litters are generally smaller but all the babies produced are genetically healthy.


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## Cait

I think they are genetically dove to be honest but when they were very young they looked almost white, which is why I mentioned silver. Now they have got their fur (but eyes still closed) they look more dove. The demarcation line is clearer than on the chams I think, perhaps this is why they look nice. I'll be breeding these two when they are old enough barring any problems between now and then. The buck is well marked but the doe is not.


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## Vivian

hm

but is it essential for good rw's? or doesn't matter for it?

lg vivian


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## Cait

You produce much better rumpwhites by mating rw to rw than rw to anything else, yes. If you mate them to something else you'll still get some that are genetically rw but this may only be shown by a piebald tail or a tiny spot of white underneath or at the tail root.


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## ian

I have also had a problem with brindling at the demarcation line which reduces the crispness of the line and I think that is due to cross breeding with non-rumpwhites.


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## Vivian

here in germany, there aren't so many rw mice at time, so i never get one i think... but i would like to cross them with an normal mice.

ok the marked won't be so good, but it doesn't matter for me.

but i can understand why you breed them in your form.... here in germany, Ay, Fizzy, naked and all mice how aren't shorthair are cald "Qwalzuchten" (torture breedings) so all peaple how breed them, shall be deemed to be a irresponsible person.

we don't want mice how get's problems in the age becase of there genetics.

the rw is a medium (like all lethal factor mices) because the breeder have assume a big responsibility.
and mice how died (and if that only in mothers bady a fetus) don't liked in germany.

i think we are much softer to feel with pet's ;-)

hm it will be difficult and the breeder must decide.

lg vivian


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## NaomiR

Vivian said:


> i think we are much softer to feel with pet's ;-)


.......only with mice I think because all the cavy breeders I have met still cull their litters but NO ONE in the UK culls cavies any more and if they do, they do well to keep jolly quiet about it 

But it is (as you say) a matter for each person / breeder to decide for themselves, I don't agree with a lot of things lots of breeders do and they possibly don't agree with some of my methods or husbandry traits but that's okay, I sleep well at night knowing I do put my animals first


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## ian

My mice aren't pets they are exhibition animals and as such I have no problem culling surplus or sick mice so having a variety which has a linked genetic fatality in foetus certainly isn't an issue. I personally wouldn't want to breed from an animal which had a genetic defect or was in anyway likely to pass on a hereditary disease as I don't like to see animals suffering but also it wouldn't be a successful exhibition mouse which is my whole aim of breeding. To be honest I think the fact that rumpwhites produce smaller litters causes less of a toll on the mother in carrying, birthing and rearing the litter which is a beneficial biproduct of the r/w gene.

Do German exhibition breeders not reduce their litters through selection?


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## Cait

NaomiR said:


> .......NO ONE in the UK culls cavies any more and if they do, they do well to keep jolly quiet about it


I know several exhibition cavy breeders who cull and it doesn't seem like they are the only ones. I think maybe you have only spoken to those who don't do it  Even the rat fancy, who are quite pet orientated, have breeders who cull, though most hide it because they get abuse from others for doing so. The mouse fancy are unusually open about it.

As for genetic problems, there are far worse problems that people breed into mice by bad breeding than those inherited by Ay mice (obesity) and rumpwhites (all those who are born are healthy the same as other mice). Some genetic problems are also exaggerated, such as those that 'hairless' mice supposedly have. I bred 'fuzzy' hairless for a few years and they never had any problems whatsoever unlike people assumed when I said I had them. In many cases a well-bred and healthy strain of the varieties you are talking about will have no more problems than a normal strain of mice.


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## SarahC

all the cavey exhibitors I know cull and rabbit fanciers do.I think the ones who dont have the varieties that are popular with the pet market.I dont suppose many netherland dwarfs or fluffy varieties of cavey are culled.Giant breeds of rabbit and plain black or white cavies wont be as appealing to the pet market though,cant remember the last time I saw a black cavey or big brown rabbit in a p.shop.Even if you go to the rspca all the fluffiest cutie pies are reserved.The public dont choose to give a home to the ugly old buggers.


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## Sputnik

sarahc said:


> all the cavey exhibitors I know cull and rabbit fanciers do.I think the ones who dont have the varieties that are popular with the pet market.I dont suppose many netherland dwarfs or fluffy varieties of cavey are culled.Giant breeds of rabbit and plain black or white cavies wont be as appealing to the pet market though,cant remember the last time I saw a black cavey or big brown rabbit in a p.shop.Even if you go to the rspca all the fluffiest cutie pies are reserved.The public dont choose to give a home to the ugly old buggers.


Just wanted to say, here in Canada at least, this is not the case. I work in a pet shop, and some of our most popular cavies and rabbits are black or brown, or other "plain" colours.


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## SarahC

you would be hard pressed round here to find a rabbit that wasnt dwarf or lop eared and another animal that doesnt crop up much is your plain old mongrel dog.Everything is a designer cross breed.


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## Cait

Yes there aren't many new fanciers who go for agouti, for example, as their first choice. Many want things like siamese or longhair etc - the varieties that are popular as pets too.


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## Vivian

sorry i have to translate..i wrote back later ok!

lg vivian


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## Vivian

> .......only with mice I think because all the cavy breeders I have met still cull their litters but NO ONE in the UK culls cavies any more and if they do, they do well to keep jolly quiet about it
> 
> But it is (as you say) a matter for each person / breeder to decide for themselves, I don't agree with a lot of things lots of breeders do and they possibly don't agree with some of my methods or husbandry traits but that's okay, I sleep well at night knowing I do put my animals first


yes i just speek from the mice breeders, but in germany are many peaples alnd fancy breeders, how don't know wath they do ... it's to easy, to breed pets....



> My mice aren't pets they are exhibition animals and as such I have no problem culling surplus or sick mice so having a variety which has a linked genetic fatality in foetus certainly isn't an issue. I personally wouldn't want to breed from an animal which had a genetic defect or was in anyway likely to pass on a hereditary disease as I don't like to see animals suffering but also it wouldn't be a successful exhibition mouse which is my whole aim of breeding. To be honest I think the fact that rumpwhites produce smaller litters causes less of a toll on the mother in carrying, birthing and rearing the litter which is a beneficial biproduct of the r/w gene.
> 
> Do German exhibition breeders not reduce their litters through selection?


oh i dont goto shows..it isn't important for me, my mice will be breed to criteria like good strong bodyand an verry , cute and lovly character. the colour isn't important for me.
if good colours in a litter, ..ok its good, i verry lucky about, isn't it ..it doesn't matter for me .

i just breed for snakes and me...

the peaple in germany how goes to shows with there mices are all in the DMRM ... that isn't my favorite, my ather breeding friend and I startet the IGLFZ , because we just wont fitt feeding mice how were breed in lage cages, we learning the genetic (im think it will never end *lol*) only for these projetct. and so we dont will get soo goodlooking mice like the DMRM i know, but that doesn't matters for us our mices are get a better life i think, that is wat im portant for me .. lucky mice with an good life oll there life long.



> I know several exhibition cavy breeders who cull and it doesn't seem like they are the only ones. I think maybe you have only spoken to those who don't do it  Even the rat fancy, who are quite pet orientated, have breeders who cull, though most hide it because they get abuse from others for doing so. The mouse fancy are unusually open about it.
> 
> As for genetic problems, there are far worse problems that people breed into mice by bad breeding than those inherited by Ay mice (obesity) and rumpwhites (all those who are born are healthy the same as other mice). Some genetic problems are also exaggerated, such as those that 'hairless' mice supposedly have. I bred 'fuzzy' hairless for a few years and they never had any problems whatsoever unlike people assumed when I said I had them. In many cases a well-bred and healthy strain of the varieties you are talking about will have no more problems than a normal strain of mice.


yes too many unexperienced pearsans breed animals in germany, do, red mice are verry often in germany many peaple like them, but they don't know about there problems..the genetic doesn't interesing for them i i know tht mices dont be the only pets how breed from so boring peaples....

i know that the born babys from the breed of tow rw mices are healthy, but i think it isn't impotant to breed so.. you will get the same achievements but you need more time for it. i mean is the colour so important that you must breed so ?

of course its your thing... you get the charge and i accept that!

i is only my position i woldn't do that ..thats al i would say with it.
i love all my mice.if the are dom red, i alreddy love them too.. the mice are the same pet, i know that you all don't want to endamage them!

lg vivian.

ps i hope now one think i will make trouble here ... i cant verbalise so good in english


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## SarahC

It's good to hear other peoples thoughts :thumbuo


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## yyoung

I had no idea that cavy breeders cull their litters. Why would they do that ? Cavies don't have as many offspring so what do they cull down to ? I am a bit shocked to be honest. What about hamster breeders do they cull also. I am having a big problem with culling but I am trying to accept that other people have different views to mine and just because I don't necessarily agree with them that doesn't make it wrong .... or indeed me right !

Of course there is the theory that I am just a downright softie :lol:


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## Mark

yyoung said:


> I had no idea that cavy breeders cull their litters. Why would they do that ? Cavies don't have as many offspring so what do they cull down to ? I am a bit shocked to be honest. What about hamster breeders do they cull also. I am having a big problem with culling but I am trying to accept that other people have different views to mine and just because I don't necessarily agree with them that doesn't make it wrong .... or indeed me right !
> 
> Of course there is the theory that I am just a downright softie :lol:


Personally when i was younger i wouldnt listen to anyone who culled there animals but growing up a bit i realised the benefits for and now see both sides, I myself cull mice ( for snake food, even though you saw no snakes at my house :shock: thye go to my friends  )

But i know a few rabbits and cavie breeders that cull, most of them show and are culled undesirble colours and others do it for snake food aswel.

a bermese is going to be full off a mouse now is it 

I also no people who cull rat litters.


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## Vivian

(if someone how know wath cull in german?)

breeding for snakes is ok, but the pets must be live good i think.


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## yyoung

Actually a guy who has been an enormous help to me is a snake breeder and his house is full of beautiful snakes. I used to completely hate snake breeders until I met him. He has altered my view.

Every time I have a problem with a mouse now I call him and he says "that might be a threat to your other mice ... I would cull it" and everytime he says that I get a new box and remove the 'offending mouse' and try and save it. This now means I have mouse boxes all over the place.... still we are all different. He respects my need to save animals and I respect his need to feed his snakes :!: :|

Sorry for going off on a tangent on this thread .....

Your babies are beautiful by the way.


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## SarahC

cavies might have small litters but if you have a lot of breeding sows numbers can soon escalate.I quite fancied showing rabbits,but I'm not comfortable with the idea that I would be able to cull them.Then there is the problem of if you find homes for everything can you really hand on heart say that they all get good life long permanent homes.Some animals as we all know have terrible lives.When my puppies were born the pleasure was spoiled by the thought that they were so happy and loved and secure with us and even with careful vetting of owners you can never be 100% sure of people.Upshot puppies stayed with us and my grand ambition of being a dog exhibitor were over.If your rabbits,cavies mice etc go to the petshop or even straight to a home who knows what their lives will be.It's a big downside of breeding anything :?every year for the last ten years my parrots have laid eggs and every year I have put a pinhole in the eggs because despite the fact that the offspring would be valuable if ever an animal shouldnt be in captivity its the bright intelligent parrot.Passed from pillar to post because they are noisy and destructive,normal parrot things.I have inherited another this year,the owner did the bird a favour and died(harsh I know)Hes spent 16 years incarcerated in a caged little bigger than a budgie cage.Result hes gone mad.My blood boils.Ill get off my soap box and this is my last comment on the subject but I want you to understand that people who don't cull do not corner the market in concerns for animal welfare.I cull but I care alot.


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## dangermouse

I have to agree with sarah........ alot of people take on animals with not much thought or understanding about the care and nature of them.

I too looked after my partners parrots being an african gray .. timmy parrot,, senigal ..orange wing and an eclectus parrot (cracking birds) very nosey and destructive and clever.finding the right homes for them is very hard indeed.


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## Vivian

uff i wrote my komand in german, because i have not so many time, but this theard are verrry inmortant for me ok!?

also cull(selektieren/verfüttern von tieren die nicht in den zuchtplan passen!?)

ich frage mich was ihr mit den ganzen Böcken aus den Würfen macht?

ich meine Einzelhaltung ist Tierqwälerei, und in Gruppenhaltung geht es nicht gut auf Dauer. Deswegen machen ich mir da garkeine Ilusionen, die Böcke werden wenn keine Anfragen für Zuchttiere besteht eben schon mit 3-5 Tagen nach der Geburt aus dem Wurf entfernt...somit gebe ich den Weibchen aus den Würfen eben mehr Milch, weil sie sich nicht darum kloppen/kämpfen müssen sie werden viel besser groß und sind natürlich auch stärker. 
Auch die Mama ist so entlastet, da sie eben nur einen 4er wurf großziehen muss statt einem 10er Wurf, so kann sie evtl, einen Wurf mehr haben da sie nicht so viel Kraft brauchte.

sie ist nicht so ausgezehrt und viel entspannter.
die Buben werden als Pinkies verfüttert, aber vorher getötet, denn ich möchte nicht das sie noch in der Schlange weiterleben... Pinkies können noch 20 Minuten die Luft anhalten, somit gab es schon welche die man aus dem Hals der Schlange noch qwiken gehört hat. unvorstellbar für mich..deswegen ist auch das einfrieren von Pinkies so qwälerei, weil sie noch so lange leben bis sie erfrieren

wenn man Tiere für Shows züchtet, muss man selektieren, an sonsten geht es nicht. man würde seinem Ziehl wohl nie näher kommen.
was man nun mit den selektierten Tieren macht ist dem Züchter wohl selber überlassen, ich für meinen Teil gebe aufgezogene Weibchen lieber an Liebhaber ab oder behalte sie selber als Liebahbertiere, als das ich sie verfütter.

was ich NIE machen würde ist einen zooladen aufzusuchen und dort meine mühsam gezogenen mit liebe versorgeten Mäuse abgeben.. wer weis wo sie landen.
das kann ich nicht verantworten und Leute die sowas tun zeihen sich meiner Meinung nach aus der verantwortung ihre Tiere die sie gezogen haben und wofür sie sorgetragen müssten ein gutes zu Hause zu suchen!
ich trage für jede Maus die aus meiner Zucht geht die Verantwortung und entweder sie geht als Schlangefutter raus (wie 90% meiner Määuse), dann aber an Leute die ich kenne und wo ich weis die werden auch verfüttet und nicht vermehrt oder eben an private Liebhaber, wo ich vorher prüfe wie meine Mäuse bei Ihnen leben (also ich telefoniere vorher mit jedem Interesenten für meien Mäuse und lasse mir meistens Bilder von den zukünftigen Behausungen schicken).. in andern fällen gehen auch Zuchttiere bei mir raus, aber nur wenn ich sie für zuchtfähig befinde und nur an Zuchten die Ihre Tier auch so geräumig halten wie ich, die sind an die gleichen Zuchtkritärien halten wie Ich auch.

als Züchter hat man weit aus mehr Verantwortung als ein Liebhaber der nur mal aus versehen einen Wurf hatte... das aufklären von Leuten über Haltung und Pflege der Kleinen, die Zusammenarbeit mit Schlangehaltern, das Zooladenmäuse für 0,15 cent das Stück keine gesunde gezogenen Tiere sein können und so weiter.. ein Züchter hat ein breit gefächetes Aufgabengebiet und die Abgabe von Mäusen im Zooladen, nur weil ich nicht konsecent genug sein kann sie zu verfüttern ist für mich nicht akzeptabel.

im nachinein sehe ich meine Babys schon im Tierhaim sitzen, mit 2 oder 3 Würfen, da ein Kind mit der Pflege und Nachwuchs weil sie im Zooladen ein Päärchen bekommen hatte überfordert war. 
mal abgesehen davon, das die Buben so oder so Diereckt als Schlangefutter gehalten und abgegeben werden!

ein Züchter zu sein bedeutet eben auch konseqwent zu sein.. denn wenn ich die Tendenz sehe, das von 100 Tieren die im Zooladen gekauft worden sind nur gerade mal 3 ein gutes artgerechtes zu Hause bekommen haben, ist es für mich alles andere als eine Alternatve zum verfüttern.

lieber kurz und schmerzlos durch meine Hand gestorben, also langsam umd qwalvoll durch eine fremde Hand leben.
es gehört zu meiner Pflicht als Züchter.

lg viv


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## sommy

WOW! :lol:


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## Vivian

to much!?

well wroting in english could be takes a long ime. but i try it later!

lg viv


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## Cait

I don't think most members will be able to understand the German version  I did try to put it into a translator online but to be honest it didn't make much sense so I didn't post the results (these online translators aren't always very good).


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## Cait

yyoung said:


> I had no idea that cavy breeders cull their litters. Why would they do that ? Cavies don't have as many offspring so what do they cull down to ? I am a bit shocked to be honest. What about hamster breeders do they cull also. I am having a big problem with culling but I am trying to accept that other people have different views to mine and just because I don't necessarily agree with them that doesn't make it wrong .... or indeed me right !
> 
> Of course there is the theory that I am just a downright softie :lol:


Breeders of almost every show animal that I can think of cull (with the exception of dogs and cats, although who knows). So yes, hamsters are definitely culled too. And yes, you are a softie but there's nothing wrong with that  :lol:


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## Vivian

i work for a translate


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## SarahC

you are right there is nothing wrong in being a softie but perhaps people who are taking the moral high ground should equip themselves with wild mus musculus.After all with their breeding methods that would be all they were entitled to.Then after a decade of careful breeding and rehoming we could see what they had produced.Second thoughts lets not bother because we all know it would be a shed load of brown mice.Certainly no rumpwhites to be responsible with.I find it hypocritical to be reaping the rewards of the methods so abhorred and be complaining at the same time.Stick to brown mice if you want a clear conscience otherwise you've bought into the selective breeding concept,just let someone else do the dirty work.


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## Cait

Very good point Sarah. I have also seen other people say only to get mice from breeders and then slag the breeders off because they cull. They don't seem to realise that the better quality animals come from that selection.


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## Peteyandthegang

Any pics of your champs Naomi? 

I wish I spoke German :?


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## ian

Yep totally agree. I am also angered at people who claim they are 'rescuing' or 'saving' an animal from a breeder which I think is both arrogant and ignorant.

My champagne rumpwhite gave birth over the weekend. I put her to a buck which had black eyes but his father was also black eyed but carrying pink eyed. The buck is obviously carrying pink eyed too, by a stroke of luck, and there seems to be 3 pink eyed babies in the litter, all of them will be champagnes. I've got my fingers crossed that they will be rumpwhites. It will be ages (about 5 days) until I can tell because the paler colours dont show their markings as early as the dark colours.


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## sommy

Champi rumpwhites? 
Wow, never seen them before!


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## Cait

I hope all 3 are rumpwhites for you Ian. One of my two does looks to be pregnant, the other is yet to show. If I get a chance I'll take a photo of the dove rumpwhite for you as well.


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## cloverstud

> Breeders of almost every show animal that I can think of cull (with the exception of dogs and cats, although who knows).


some dog exhibitors do cull, yes for example rodeshian ridgeback puppies that are born without the ridge are sometimes culled and english bull terrier breeders sometimes cull deaf puppies.
but apparently there is a very big controversey surrounding it at the minute my neighbour was telling me as she shows irish red and white setters.


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## NaomiR

and I will get back to my original thread.....here are the baby chams in all their lovely colour variations


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## NaomiR

none of them are as dark as the dad to this litter, do you think they'll darken with age possibly?

I'm going to run most of this little lot on to see what happens but I'm curious what will happen to their colours :shock:


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## Vivian

:love1

so sweet. wath colour ist the adult mice!ß nice light colour.

lg viv


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## Loganberry

I can see one at the top that is dark, so that will be the dad's colour. It looks like you might have one or two PEWs in there too.


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## NaomiR

yes 2 or 3 are pew's, 2 are Dad's dark colour (which I like) and the others are very pale chams, but they're stonking babies I love them :lol:


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## ian

My champagne rumpwhite litter was a miracle litter. There were 9 babies and it turns out 4 were pink eyed 3 does and a buck all of which have now developed rumpwhite markings. There is also one chocolate r/w buck and 3 r/w does one sof which is shaping up to be showable in terms of her demarcation line. So there was just one chocolate self which is a doe, i didnt have to cull down at all because all of the babies could be useful. I did a little experiment with the self doe and fostered her over to another litter which is something I havent done before and it all went perfectly.
I'll try to get pictures when the colour comes in properly, its still very pale at the moment.


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## Cait

Nice one Ian. I'm still awaiting babies from my two cham rw does to a cham rw buck, will let you know the results. I also separated the dove rw buck from mum yesterday and he's doing well.


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## ian

These will start cropping up at show relatively soon then. My champagnes are a little bit darker and yellower than a champagne self should be but I think that actually looks better and provides a better contrast in the rump whites. The colour isnt that important with rumpwhites anyway is it?


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## Cait

It's not as important as it is on a self but it should still be as good as you can get it. I don't know about you but my cham rw are a decent colour as u/8 but are too dark as adults. I haven't selectively bred for the colour though so this is to be expected. The doves are closer to the correct colour than the chams at the moment, but there are only 2 doves and they're just over 4 weeks old :roll:


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## ian

I have bred to acheive the desired colour but not yet selected to improve the colour. I suppose as I get more champagne rumpwhites coming through and start breeding champagne x champagne then it will become a more defined colour but until then I am happy to be working on the markings. I personally prefer the darker shades of champagne so I think that will show in my own mice (I also like the lighter chocolates so most of my rumpwhites are lighter than they should be). I think the quality of colour is something which I'll have to work on later on. I have a dream of having a rumpwhite win Best Marked at some point in the future and to compete with the variegateds and dutch etc I will have to improve significantly in all areas 

Here is a pic of my champagne/chocolate litter, theres a wide range of shades..it looks like the chocolates are going to be very pale as well.










Here is a champagne with a chocolate, you can almost make out the definition between the coloured part and the white rump on the champagne, its only slightly more obvious in the flesh.


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## Cait

Nice pics, I can see the demarcation line on the cham as you say. Happy to swap some in the future if you ever want new blood. Will let you know if and when mine produce litters and how the doves are doing


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## ian

Yes definately, keep me posted.


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## Vivian

ohhh so sweeet looks like naked bottom XD


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## ian

Two of my champagne litter are cinnamons. This means that one of my champagne rumpwhite does is actually ticked, I cant see any ticking though? I know a pink eyed agouti is an argente so is a pink eyed cinnamon called anything special or does the pink eyed gene cancel out the ticking in cinnaons making them appear the same as a champagne?


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## Cait

Good question. I suppose the cinnamon is a chocolate ticked mouse, so this would appear champagne coloured, yes. What a turn up and interesting too  Maybe that's why your 'chams' and mine are different shades? Mine are definitely champagne as both parents were chocolate selfs. We should get photos and compare the two...


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## ian

Well I have two champagne rumpwhite does both are darker than the champagne self I got from you recently. Anyway the one that had the litter (the other one didnt get pregnant unfortunately) has become darker and slightly yellower which I put down to some strange effect of pregnancy, but she has to be a cinnamon base so that might be making the difference.

I wonder if champanges and pink eyed cinnamons are just so similar that no idstinction has ever been made? I'll have another good look at the does tommorrow and hopefully get some pics.


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## Cait

I wonder if they were both the paler shade (i.e. the showing preference) whether you'd be able to tell the difference easily or at all. I suppose maybe the type wouldn't be as good as a self cham though so perhaps no point in persuing it but still interesting. I really must take a photo of the dove rw for you as well, I'm so slack


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## Cait

They're only quick snaps, but here's the dove buck:

















And a comparison of the dove and a mismarked champagne the same age. Neither is as dark in real life but the tones can still be seen here...


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## ian

The dove isnt bad! The colour looks a bit like the (cece) dilute rumpwhites I've had although obviously not such a wishywashy shade and mine are black eyed. I really like my dilute rump whites and I always thought it was a shame that I wouldnt be able to do anything with them but if I can get some dove rumpwhites out that would be better.


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## Cait

Just to give you an update Ian, one of the cham rw does gave birth last night to 5 babies. A small litter but the other doe has still to produce, hopefully she'll have a few more. It also looks like I have a few chams in another litter so not exactly short of a few :lol: How are your babies doing?


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## ian

They are doing really well, they aren't huge because I kept the whole litter. I have two champagne rumpwhite bucks and two champagne rumpwhite does I also have a couple of choc/cinn rump white does. Most of them have reasonable markings on top and theres two does one of them a champagne which look really good on top all of the unders need some work. I'll take the cham rw doe to a show if I get to one on the next few months, she wont do much on the judging bench but she should look impressive in the maxey.


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## ian

So this issue of pink eyed cinnamons is present again, I have two pink eyed bucks on is a champagne the other is a pink eyed cinnamon. The pink eyed cinnamon is a much darker richer colour and they really do look quite distinct, he looks a bit more like an argente than a champagne (but at the same time not like an argente!). I tried to get apicutre but it doesnt show the colour difference. 
Any ideas Cait?


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## Cait

Ideas in what sense? Have you tried different lighting to get the photo to show up the ticking etc?


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## ian

OK I'm going to give it a bash.

I've just looked on finnmouse site and looked under the agouti section and it refers to them only as pink eyed champagnes. They must be something! Maybe they are considered too close to champagnes to be distinguished as its own variety?


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## ian

Here they are:



















please feel free to let me know if there isn't a difference-I might just have convinced myself of something that isn't there.
The one is consider a pink eyed cinnamon is at the bottom of both pictures (champagne top of both pics)
I only need to keep one of these guys long term for breeding although I had planned to get a litter or two from both and continuing with which ever turns out best. They have almost identically faulted markings, both are healthy and the same size so it's all down to colour. I prefer the darker one which I think is the pink eyed cinnamon but I'm guessing they are entered as champagnes but are not the right shade for champagnes so maybe its best not to breed from him at all?


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## Cait

I can see a definite difference in colour but I can't see ticking on my monitor. The one you are saying is PE cinnamon has a warmer tone to it than the champagne. It looks as if it has more orangey tones to it, is that true in real life?


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## ian

Thats right much more orangy and richer. Does that eliminate him from breeding for champagnes, I imagine so?
It's not a problem if so as I have the other bucks and a surpirse champange tan r/w has popped up in another litter which is well marked and he can be backup. My friend is here now so if I decide not to keep him he can go with her tonight-I hate keeping hold of mice once I've decided to get rid and I already have a little group which are ready to go with her.


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## Cait

I would say to use the one that really is champagne and as you say give the other one to your friend. There's no point running a gene through your lines that might ruin it in the future!


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## ian

Thats really helpful thank you Cait. 
I usually am able to make these decisions easily, the problem in this case is that I personally prefer the darker shade but I need to focus on the fact that I'm breeding champagnes for show purposes!


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## Cait

If you need another champagne rw buck at some point I'm happy to oblige. I have a total of 5 cham rw babies at the moment, plus a pink litter of 6. They are not as well marked as yours yet although the parents were comparable.


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## ian

I now have two cham r/w does both are slightly better marked than these bucks, also I have a new cham tan r/w buck which has a fantastic top but not seen the under yet as hes too young. Oh and the two adult cham r/w does which are similar to these bucks but with terribly pull unders. All of the young apart from the new cham tan r/w buck are tiny as I kept more than I normally would from the litter.

I'll see how it goes, I'm hoping I've got enough to be getting on with for the time being.


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## Loganberry

Hi there guys! just wanted to say it's really good seeing the progression on what you're both doing with pink eyed rumpwhites - it's like a case study! Exciting to keep up to date with, litter by litter!


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## NaomiR

I have nothing of any real value to add except to say I think they're really pretty colour combinations and like Heather, I'm enjoying watching this un fold


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