# any lethal factors that produce smaller litters



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

hello, i was wondering if there where any other lethal factors besides red that produce smaller litters. I'm not to thrilled about culling, and would it be possible to start a small litter line? only breed the mice with smallest litters?


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

I think there are a few members here that breed for smaller litters, easier on the does' bodies to gestate 6 rather then larger sized litters. I personally like it when they have medium sized litters with only a few that need to be culled, as it means that I have more control over which bubs I'm keeping. Ie, a litter of 6 might not have what I'm looking for, but a litter of 10 means that is 4 more mice to choose from within the parameters I'm looking for.

I also don't know at what stage in creating a line of mice you would select for the small litters, I am under the impression that you would do it later on once you have established a line, since color, size, health might be considered more important. (Show vs. pet vs. feeder aspects I suppose)

There is also the question of what selection for smaller litters is doing biologically, is it less eggs being released, a smaller sperm count, embryo's not sticking to the uterine wall, etc. Maybe someone else who has experience with breeding for small litters can help out with any triumph/problems they've had?


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

rumpwhite is like reds, ones that get two copies of the gene are ment to be reabsorded. The other leathal i rember think its vari and uk brindle the non viable ones are born but will die if nto culled.

So id amigin a line of red rumpwhite would be much smaller. as you would lose double rumps and double reds. you need to get domant red and rumpwhite and breed them tougher.
so a black rumpwhite to a red carrying agouti you will get
red rumpwhite
agouti rumpwhite
red self 
agouti self.

Keep and breed the red rumpwhites and you will get
red rumpwhite 
red self
black rump white 
black self
leathal red reabsorbed
leathal black rumpwhite reabsorbed
leathal red rumpwhite reabsorbed


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

I was thinking about helping mom raise the litter by feeding the pups milk from an eye dropper., and saving euthanasia for last resort. I was thinking about starting a black tan line, any one recommend that?


----------



## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

They've covered the lethals I know - we don't have by of those genes here but I seem to get naturally small litters in my type improvement line, litters so far have been 4 for first time Mums and increased to 7 or so by their last litter. 
As for breeding black tans, if you really like black tans then go for it - don't breed a colour just because you think it may be easy, breed what you like.


----------



## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

You said 'mom' not 'mum' so I'm guessing you're in the US? If so you won't be able to get rumpwhites or dominant red. There are a couple of breeders with Ay there but you would only get it from those few who imported and definitely not from a pet store or hobby breeder.

Personally I would say that breeding for smaller litters specifically would cause fertility problems over time. The reality is, if you want to breed successfully for show you will have to cull at some point. Even if you didn't cull litters in the nest you'd have to be able to cull ill animals.


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

yeah, I'm in the US. I don't mind culling, though I'd rather not unless necessary. I understand that in the wild only a fraction of the pups survive, and if you want to breed, you kind of have to be the predator as well as the caretaker. I also understand that if I don't cull, they will either die a slow death, or get killed by there mother. I think I will do tans, and use euthanasia for the pups.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

mousefan said:


> yeah, I'm in the US. I don't mind culling, though I'd rather not unless necessary. I understand that in the wild only a fraction of the pups survive, and if you want to breed, you kind of have to be the predator as well as the caretaker. I also understand that if I don't cull, they will either die a slow death, or get killed by there mother. I think I will do tans, and use euthanasia for the pups.


If you need a reason to cull, find someone with a snake who would buy the "extra's" or donate them to a wildlife rescue. :3


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Whereabouts in the US are you? We've actually got a pretty good gene pool going for the dominant red, though it'll be a while still before they make it to new breeders. Variegated is actually less common at this point, since it's not really a hot variety. Rumpwhite, though, completely died out after it was imported. Instead, by culling out males, you can generally get fairly small litters. Male mice aren't wanted as pets, and aren't as useful in a breeding program, so the vast majority are unneeded anyway. If you go for a marked variety, it can be quite simple to see the spots on a dark-eyed marked variety while they're still young enough to cull, making it easier to make the decision early.

Feeding pups from a dropper is basically pointless, in my opinion. You'd have to be there constantly for the first few days to make a noticeable difference in Mom's load.

Black tans are a pretty good variety for a beginner, since they breed true and there are fairly straightforward breeding goals, and we've got fairly good stock going in several parts of the country. Personally, I just got out of all my black-eyed tans, and just do the pink-eyed tans, but there's an awful lot about. The variety can be found in pet shops, and that's not a terribly bad place to start with the variety, since it gives you a good way to learn how to breed the variety before you can source good stock. Most PetCos get tans occasionally. I saw a blue tan in mine today when I went in for turtle food, actually.


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

I am actually in northern NY, right on the canadian boarder. Though I will be going to ohio this fall for a gerbil show, to maryland for another show in late january, hopefully next rodent fest, and a gerbil show in MA sometime next may. I'm willing to drive to VT or Nh, and other parts of NY. I think I'd rather get some show quality tan stock, not from the petstore as i would like to start breeding for show. Does anyone know of any breeders in New england, Ny, Ohio, or mayrland?


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Oh, honey. There are a ton of breeders in OH and MD, several in NY. You're in a prime position to find folks with stock, especially tans. If you don't find them on FMB, there's also a Facebook group for the club that puts on the mouse show at Rodenfest, the United Mouse Club, and checking in there might work for you, too.


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

I can't find any. I only know of eccentric evolution in NY (she doesn't do tans), 
and mason dixon in MD (I'm not going there till next january). I need a good Ohio breeder to start out my lines. I know mousery moments stopped breeding, and just for fuzzes doesn't do tans... any recommendations????


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

JFF can give you a recommendation for other folks in Ohio, though Mason Dixon has the best quality black-eyed tan stock in your area, judging from what came to the show a month ago. She has fully import-bred stock in black or agouti tan.


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

Who is JFF? That is neat, she imported tans. I have been on her site and saw pics of her mice, though i never realized she actually brought mice over from Europe, wow! What does Beth specialize in? I'll be going to Ohio this fall, and Maryland next January, so I'll get some nice stock


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

A big group of us imported tans, reds, siamese splashed, blacks, and a few other varieties last year. Several of the UK folks on here were a great help in getting that organized.  JFF is Just for Fuzzies, who you had just mentioned; she has some of the imported reds. I'm honestly not sure what Beth breeds.


----------



## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up about this thread Laigaie!

Mousefan- I'm the owner of Just For Fuzzies. My site is in serious need of an update.  I have some nice Tan lines going that are derived from Red lines, so they've got nice belly color.  I also breed quite a few other varieties. What are you looking for?

Unfortunately, I'm on the opposite end of the state from Beth(and Michele and Kimberlee, 2 other breeders near Beth). Where exactly in OH will you be going?


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm going to Northern Ohio. I was thinking of a black tan trio. 
I'm going to Ohio in late September to early October. will you have any promising tans available?


----------



## mouselover01 (Nov 1, 2011)

Mousefan, I am in NYS near the border of Canada as well and am breeding import tan lines.

I have black tans (no litter yet) and I have dove tans and reds with a litter 2 days ago.

eccentric evolution is not in New York and is not a reputable breeder. I'm curious where you heard she was in New York?


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

What does NYS stand for? New york south??? I heard of **** in albany on the mouse connection, it said under her profile.


----------



## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

mousefan said:


> What does NYS stand for? New york south??? I heard of ***** in albany on the mouse connection, it said under her profile.


We all hope that ***** doesn't ever own mice again. You would not want ANYTHING from her.


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

Who would want mice if they cant take care of them?
She sounds like an animal hoarder


----------



## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

mousefan said:


> She sounds like an animal hoarder


And a theft, lier, and general all around jerk. That is why we are warning you to stay away!


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

Thank you for warning me, I don't want to get involved with her from what she sounds like...


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Have edited some posts as we prefer that personal grievances with specific people are not brought to the live forum. These can be discussed by PM


----------



## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

WoodWitch said:


> Have edited some posts as we prefer that personal grievances with specific people are not brought to the live forum. These can be discussed by PM


 I strongly disagree with this. Hiding the names of people who have done terrible things in the community just allows others to be taken in and hurt. When she scammed me and sold me sick dying animals, I was told by pm that she had done it before many times, but by then it was too late. Not being allowed to warn others is a mistake and let's it happen to newbies over and over.


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Whilst I have no personal issues over either the subject or the people being discussed, the bigger picture is more important. It's Mine and other moderators job to keep the forum a pleasant environment for all.


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

I understand you want to keep it calm, but i am very glad they warned me about her. I have been on her site a lot, and was starting to consider buying some of those adorable short furred, or ASFs from her. after reading many other posts about her stealing mice, and the way she cares for her animals, that was practically a life saver. I think if it's that if it is something really serious, it shouldn't be kept secret.


----------



## mouselover01 (Nov 1, 2011)

NYS is New York State. I'm technically in WNY (western New York) lol

And I also disagree. 
Maybe a buyer beware section or something. I for one would not be able to keep quiet after I opened my home to this person because she needed a place to live and they stole my things, killed my animals and fed them to her lizard, scammed people, had the cops here constantly, broke into my garage, and had her rodents so infested with mites I had to constantly treat mine so they wouldn't be infested, while I was itching all over because her mites were infesting the whole house. I had to throw away dead rats after she left here because she moved out and left them here without telling anymore because she didn't want a rat with huge tumors hanging off of it and she couldn't make a buck off of it.

There's personal grievances and outright law breaking and scamming. Also, when the whole US mouse community has a problem with the same person, I think it means something.


----------



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

I double agree with you, LOL!


----------

