# The Haven Group



## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

So if you have read my little rant in my "Cordane Chat Something" thread then you will know all about these little beauties. I was meant to take in 24 mice but sadly, while my friend was away at a show, someone broke into her mouse shed and stole 11 mice (9 males and 2 females).

With that said, meet the new fella's!

This is the only adult male here (he is coming down to Hamilton with me to go to his new home) : Monty









These two little boys don't have names (due to be weaned on the 20th) and are the sons of Diamond :
















And the girls for you 
Speedy :








Ford :








Trixie :








Diamond :








Ruby :








Possum :









And these gals don't have names yet :












































One thing that did shock me was the size difference. In this picture, the girl on the left was bred by me (born 5th April), the little girl on the right was bred by my friend (born on the 6th of April).









And in this one. The girl on the right is bred by me (5th of April), The middle girl is bred by me as well (10th of April, the runt of the litter) and the girl on the left is bred by my friend (born 6th of April)


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

My goodness! It's clear you've been breeding quality mice, but were they other ones from a rescue situation? Just different breeding practices? Were you planning on breeding them into your lines, or working on them on the side?


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

Size difference is crazy! You must be doing something right!  I can also tell your first big doe has a great tail set on.

Stolen her mice? Wow, crazy, that must have been dramatic, tragic and well, crazy! So sorry about that.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Frizzle said:


> My goodness! It's clear you've been breeding quality mice, but were they other ones from a rescue situation? Just different breeding practices? Were you planning on breeding them into your lines, or working on them on the side?


Mine are a generation or two away from pet shop mice, but it definitely is nice to see how my "strict" practices have really helped. Her breeding practices are almost the same as mine (she learnt from me), the only thing I really do differently is daily weight checks/handling and a different food (I use a home-made mix while she uses rolled barely and maize or something). 
I definitely won't be breeding them into my lines. Long story short, she is a breeder of rabbits, guineas and mice. Some breeder who has never been to her place laid complaints with the SPCA and they have told her she needs to reduce numbers drastically. They are here because if she didn't rehome them by the 20th, the SPCA would take them and put them down. 


TwitchingWhiskers said:


> Size difference is crazy! You must be doing something right!  I can also tell your first big doe has a great tail set on.
> 
> Stolen her mice? Wow, crazy, that must have been dramatic, tragic and well, crazy! So sorry about that.


She has animals stolen on a relatively frequent basis. Her property is right on the main road, low fence, people just hop over and take what they want. It's insanely frustrating. 
Why thank you! She's actually from my pet line


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

I really like Ruby & the first two unnamed girls 

That's horrible about her critters being stolen!


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Perhaps she didn't cull litters down, or do it early enough? From what I understand large litters can take a while longer to reach their adult size. There is some thought that they never will reach their best adult size from a big litter, also. I'd be curious to see what happens later, in the next generations. Most pet breeders seem argue that they do reach 'full' size (not usually on this forum), and most show breeders say no they don't. I've not seen adult pictures of the difference, in enough quantity, to have any assumptions, so I'm still quite curious.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

ThatCertainGlow said:


> Perhaps she didn't cull litters down, or do it early enough? From what I understand large litters can take a while longer to reach their adult size. There is some thought that they never will reach their best adult size from a big litter, also. I'd be curious to see what happens later, in the next generations. Most pet breeders seem argue that they do reach 'full' size (not usually on this forum), and most show breeders say no they don't. I've not seen adult pictures of the difference, in enough quantity, to have any assumptions, so I'm still quite curious.


That's the thing, she's never needed to cull litters down - her does so far have only had between 2-6 babies each. The one time a doe had more (a litter of 8) she was living with another Dow who had a litter of 2 so there was essentially 5 babies each. 
At first I thought maybe it could be genetics but quite a few of her mice are "half mine". The ones bred by her in the comparison picture were sired by my boy Junior (he has always given me 40-60g babies when they mature and he is 49g). We both currently have litter still on mum. Diamond with her litter of two being born on the 21st of April and my Nephelie and her 4 born on the 26th. Both mums are about the same weight, dads are father and son and yet her two are smaller than my 4.
All that makes me question if its care related (ie diet)
I personally doubt her babies will ever reach "full size" and will probably weigh no more than 30g each even though they have potential to be much larger.


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Cordane said:


> All that makes me question if its care related (ie diet).


Ok, going with this then. :lol: I'm surprised though, simple grains are often recommended as a base diet for mice. *Goes back to see what she fed other than barley and something...* So, only two grains, no other foods? Perhaps that would do it then. Caused a lack that prevented the potential, perhaps. Both of litter size, and body growth. Barley isn't my first choice as a second grain either (if you're only feeding two grains), for reproduction and growth. Interested to see later how they are under your feeding methods.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

I've currently got 3 pregnant does of hers here though I'd really rather not change their diet during the middle of their pregnancy. I think I'll just do a half-half mix tip they give birth and go from there. 
Ah! I clean forgot and this. I borrowed one of her bucks a while back and use him over my smallest doe (she matured in the low 30's). I've kept one of her babies and my friend has the other. My girl is small ish though she did go without food for 5 days not long after weaning (she escaped) but the son my friend kept, he is a little monster! (He is the same size as my stud boys, in the high 40's easily).
The buck I used came from Wendy's girl speedy who is her smallest mouse and the one we originally introduced the small size/wild mouse in the distant past.

But yes, she has been feeding what I feed to my stock. It's great for weight gain in cattle. You cannot feed it daily to the cows or they pack on weight way to fast and causes feet problems.


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