# UK Import Splashed Setback(Split from F1 UK Import Babies!!)



## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

unfortunately, my male splashed siamese died, a significant setback to my plans. i may be stuck with no better than half english mice when all is said and done. or i could perhaps breed the black tan male into the siamese line, should he live long enough to offer that option.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Oh no!


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

What happened?


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Jack Garcia said:


> Oh no!


if i'm very lucky, perhaps one of the females will turn up pregnant.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Laigaie said:


> What happened?


i don't know, but would assume some sort of contagious disease. i found him dead in a cage with a group of american females. he had not appeared particularly ill previous to dying, but in truth none of my new mice appear wholly healthy.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Oh no, how awful!  I hope it's not a contageous disease - the others would have it as well. Did you have just the one male with all the females with him, or do you have another male and female(s)?

I feel so disappointed and frustrated for you!


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> Oh no, how awful!  I hope it's not a contageous disease - the others would have it as well. Did you have just the one male with all the females with him, or do you have another male and female(s)?
> 
> I feel so disappointed and frustrated for you!


i received a pair of splashed along with a siamese female. also a red female and a black tan male. as well as a group of american mice.

the splashed male was housed with the siamese and splashed females, but had a couple sojourns with groups of my own females. all of the new mice were housed in a separate room from my own mice (which are in my garage), but really there was enough admixture of mice and equipment that it was a rather futile quarantine, if you could even call it that (i didn't really intend it as a quarantine, they were housed separately as i didn't want to just throw the new mice into a climate to which they weren't acclimated).

would you (and anyone else that might offer an opinion) recommend breeding some of the half english siamese line mice to the english black tan, should i have that opportunity? i don't know how the selection for really red pheomelanin would effect siamese (and blacks and blues).


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

I don't have any experience with that high quality of mouse so wouldn't know what to suggest. The people who know the varieties would be able to help. All I'm thinking is that, in your position, I'd want to retain as much type as possible. Are the half English siamese line of similar type quality to the imports?

I don't think red in the black tan would hurt the siamese, but the inverse wouldn't be so good. I imagine the introduction of any c-dilutes from siamese would have a negative effect on future black tans if this is a line you want to keep going. It would take ages to get the c-dilutes out. Just my thoughts - like I said, I have NO experience at that high quality level of breeding.

Again, I'm so sorry this has happened.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> All I'm thinking is that, in your position, I'd want to retain as much type as possible. Are the half English siamese line of similar type quality to the imports?


it is unlikely that they will be. they will be mice from the deceased male and females that i've had here. the females are animals that i've bred for 3-4 generations, originally from pet shop stock.



MojoMouse said:


> I don't think red in the black tan would hurt the siamese, but the inverse wouldn't be so good. I imagine the introduction of any c-dilutes from siamese would have a negative effect on future black tans if this is a line you want to keep going. It would take ages to get the c-dilutes out.


that makes sense to me too, it would be a cross only in the direction of the siamese line. the tan line would remain separate.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm sorry yours aren't doing well  All the ones I recieved in the shipment are doing great...but then I also took the precaution of not breeding anything of my existing mice, or getting any new mice, since the end of February before they arrived and took care not to have them come into any contact with any American mice (though they have technically been in the same airspace). The only one of mine that's been in contact with American mice is the one that Casey took that Elena currently has with her litter and luckily she seems to be doing well from what I've heard.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Do you have access to any of the self blacks that were sent over?


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

MouseBreeder said:


> Do you have access to any of the self blacks that were sent over?


I'm sort of hoping the group that imported the mice will get together and put differences aside to see that sys15 gets some great mice from the F1 litters. The fact is that many came over already pregnant, which was thoughtful by the UK people. That was a sort of insurance, and maybe could be utilised by the group?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Sys15 is in California. There's really not much we can do to help from here. He's hundreds of miles west of the next westernmost breeder in the shipment.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

If you happen to come to Kentucky you can have one of my extreme blacks, as long as I have enough notice (a couple of months) to breed it.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Laigaie said:


> He's hundreds of miles west...


Sys15 is a bloke? Talk about forming impressions about people that are not true to life! :lol: (I don't know why I'm surprised, but I am!)

Jack, I bet you'll be saying you're male as well next! :lol: I'll never believe that!


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Jack Garcia said:


> If you happen to come to Kentucky you can have one of my extreme blacks, as long as I have enough notice (a couple of months) to breed it.


jack, thank you very much. that is very thoughtful of you. i'll make every effort to take you up on that offer if i make it towards kentucky.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> Sys15 is a bloke? Talk about forming impressions about people that are not true to life! :lol: (I don't know why I'm surprised, but I am!)


heh. i wonder how many of the genders i'm projecting on posters are incorrect? although i think if you assume everyone is female, you're probably right most of the time.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

i may have gotten lucky. it is too early to be sure, but i think the siamese female may be showing the first signs of pregnancy.

a quick question on splashed - what does this gene look like on albino, ch/c and/or ce/c animals?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

No color can show on albino, because albino animals cannot produce pigment.

On heterozygotes of ch/c or ce/c, you will see reverted splashes of the base color (probably black?) along with the C-dilute (Himalayan or ivory).


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

how is it that the gene "repairs" other c diluting alleles, but not albino? ugly mice (to me) but an interesting gene.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't know, but that's how it works.

There are countless long-standing American breeders of splashed (including Jenny and Christina) who have attested that c/c Spl/* is albino. It can produce splashed because it is splashed "underneath" the albino, but it is nonetheless albino.

I've actually bred them accidentally from crossing a PEW to another mouse who couldn't have been splashed (I don't keep marked varieties).


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

oh, i believe you, i just think it's odd.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Albinos produce no pigment, thus there are no pigments for the splashed to dilute. Albino paired with any other c locus dilution will produce tricolors (in the presence of Spl), however, as in and of itself it is overridden by the presence of other c locus dilutions.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I knew the fancier who originally brought splashed from the laboratory (Wanda), but she is no longer with us and I never asked her about splashed. I've always preferred other varieties over splashed, anyway.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

moustress said:


> Albinos produce no pigment, thus there are no pigments for the splashed to dilute. Albino paired with any other c locus dilution will produce tricolors (in the presence of Spl), however, as in and of itself it is overridden by the presence of other c locus dilutions.


well, yes, albinos produce no pigment, but that is because the albino allele cripples production of melanin. the other c-dilute alleles do the same, just to a lesser extent. my understanding of the splashed gene is that it somehow restores or repairs melanin production or expression in random swathes of the mouse's coat (and presumably skin?). so it is not obvious to me why it would have that effect on various incomplete albinos (at least the three non-albino c-dilution alleles common among mouse fanciers, correct?), but not have a similar effect on complete albinos.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

sys15 said:


> (at least the three non-albino c-dilution alleles common among mouse fanciers, correct?)


Yes.

In addition, I've seen it work with heterozygous intense chinchilla, ci/c, as well.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

> Albinos produce no pigment, thus there are no pigments for the splashed to dilute.


Splash does not dilute anything....splash UNDILUTES in patches on an otherwise diluted animal.

My guess with c/c vs the other dilutes would be that c/c completely disables the production of all pigments and spl doesn't work in a way that can reenable that production...but when the production is only reduced by the other c-dilutes, it is able to increase the the production. A lot of splashed mice do not have fully reverted splashes btw...often times the splashes are somewhere between diluted and undiluted.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Stina said:


> often times the splashes are somewhere between diluted and undiluted.


This is true. It's also why I've held for a long time that a good American brindle with white spots (Avy/* s/s) would make a better "tricolor" (red, black, and white) than the "standard" type of tricolors (faded brown/gray, black, and white)...on the former nothing is being diluted (or reverted) so you could actually have three distinct, full, clear colors. A fancier with the RMFE bred some like this in the 1990s but that's the only instance I know of. If I had the time and space, I'd do it.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

looking today, i am probably 98% sure that the siamese female is pregnant. what a relief.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

as it turned out, both the siamese female and splashed female managed to get themselves pregnant before the male died. both females gave birth this week. unfortunately i wasn't home when they gave birth, and while the splashed female had a litter of nine and seems to have taken very good care of her litter, the siamese did not do so well. she was the fatter of the two when i left, but had just five pups with her when i returned, all significantly smaller than the splashed female's pups. although three of them did have some milk in their stomachs, they did not appear to be getting sufficient nourishment. the other two pups were even smaller, did not have any observable milk in their guts and died last night.

fortunately, i had a couple of american females give birth today and i used them to foster off the remaining three pups from the siamese as well as a couple of pups from the splashed. hopefully they will recover and thrive with their foster mothers.

a few photos: of the splashed female and her litter along with some half english juveniles. i'm a little puzzled by the half english splashed pups. the light ones i should think could only be himalayan, however their eyes appear too dark, no? the darker ones, i assume are likely color point beige (black-eyed siamese), although they too are darker than i would have expected. i'm still not completely convinced that the c dilution gene that popped up in my american colony is ce, but i can't think of anything else that seems plausible.

the half english tans, although not great, are noticeably better than than their american mothers.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

sys15 said:


> as it turned out, both the siamese female and splashed female managed to get themselves pregnant before the male died. both females gave birth this week.


Glad to hear that they were both pregnant and that you have a good number of young to work with in future. I look forward to photos when the babies are older.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MouseBreeder said:


> Glad to hear that they were both pregnant and that you have a good number of young to work with in future. I look forward to photos when the babies are older.


thanks. i may have overreacted when i found the male dead. or perhaps not, and i have just gotten lucky since then. either way, the situation seems to have stabilized with no tremendous damage done.

i can't wait till these things get fur.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I guess you believe me now then, when I said that I never had any problems with splashed does getting pregnant :lol: I hope all 12 do well for you, that plus the two adult does should be plenty to base a stud on. Do you know the buck/doe ratio yet?


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MouseBreeder said:


> I guess you believe me now then, when I said that I never had any problems with splashed does getting pregnant :lol: I hope all 12 do well for you, that plus the two adult does should be plenty to base a stud on. Do you know the buck/doe ratio yet?


heh. they do seem fertile. it was odd with the male, anyways, as he hadn't evidenced any particular sign of illness prior to death. certainly not compared to some of the others (which have survived and apparently recovered).

the three surviving pups from the siamese are all males, there were five males and four females in the splashed's litter, of which i culled one male.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Well I suppose they had been through a very stressful journey from here to the US, then were shipped again internally. Fingers crossed that all the hiccups are over with now...


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

That's really good news about the litters, even though the siamese had difficulties. How are the fostered bubs doing, btw?

I was thinking about the mystery illness and the sudden death of the buck. Given that these are mice from a long inbred, location specific line, perhaps it's something as simple as a normally harmless bug that they had no resistance to. Like the common cold decimating indigenous populations who had no previous exposure to it. The mice that survived managed to produce antibodies in time, but the buck didn't. Just wondering...


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

No, they aren't inbred much - they've only been in the uk since January 2011. But moving mice from one stud to another can be bad for the mice.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Ok, of course. But I was thinking more of the change of country. There are different pathogens that would normally be harmless. Just a thought.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

i've left a lot of the details out. but yes, it is certainly possible that the stress of moving, along with possible exposure to novel pathogens, may have played a role in the male's death.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I am thrilled to hear that you are back on track!!!


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I am thrilled to hear that you are back on track!!!


thanks! me too.


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