# Questions for European/American Genetics Boffs...



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I hope someone can answer my questions 

I don't know that much about recessive red as we don't have it here and there's not very much information available online. I would like to know a few things, for no good reason other than my terrible curiosity 

1. Can you make a _proper_ looking sable with recessive red (proper as in with a dark brown back fading down to fiery red on the belly)? Our English sable is dominant red + tan (Ay/at). Would recessive red + tan (at/* e/e) also be a sable?

2. I've seen loads of pictures of splashed mice made from black + Siamese, black + stone/beige, etc; so I assume that a black + albino mouse would be a white mouse with black splashes, rather like a variegated. Is that correct?


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## SiamMeece (Sep 21, 2010)

I can't help you with question nr. 1, hopefully with question nr. 2 

The splashed gene doesn't work on albino, a splashed albino will be all white. The closest thing to colour on white splashed would be himilayan based (ch/c) or bone based (ce/c). No good for breeding tricolours though because of lack of contrast between the c-dilute and the white patches (but I realise that's also a matter of taste  )


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

As to 1, don't sables also needed the Umbrous gene? So Ay/at U*, while the recessive red version would be at/* ee U*. I've wondered whether you could get true-breeding sables by using recessive red and at/at ee UU, since that's a completely non-lethal version of what really ought to be the same thing. Does anyone over here breed sables?


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## Sharon_ (Jul 6, 2011)

To question 2: I don't think you can have albino splashed. But White splashed mice with dark eyes are possible. I have a litter of it. Himalayan splashed and bone splashed is even possible, like SiamMeece said


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

It's very interesting that you can't get an albino splashed (a/a c/c Spl/*) I wonder why the splashed gene allows the black to show through on every c-dilute except albino...


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## SiamMeece (Sep 21, 2010)

SarahY said:


> I hope someone can answer my questions
> 
> I don't know that much about recessive red as we don't have it here and there's not very much information available online. I would like to know a few things, for no good reason other than my terrible curiosity
> 
> 1. Can you make a _proper_ looking sable with recessive red (proper as in with a dark brown back fading down to fiery red on the belly)? Our English sable is dominant red + tan (Ay/at). Would recessive red + tan (at/* e/e) also be a sable?


I'm not sure if it's a proper enough sable but there is a resemblance. Nothing to do with recessive red and tan but with a black based recessive red.

http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/mousefancierforum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=930


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I have made sables using just the agouti gene, bred to be dark on the top and light on the bottom.
Now, they are NOT red, they are brown, black, and with tan and white bellies, but they are 'proper' in the way that they fade from top to bottom in colour.

I also have a pink eyed version of this, which is silver on the top, then it fades to gold, then fades to white/light straw on the belly.

Very neat.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

SiamMeece, I had a couple like that but they were just very poor reds and quite ugly. Not like a decent sable at all.

May we see pictures please Rhasputin?

Just to clarify, I mean as in fiery red under and dark rich brown on top, a show quality sable. I had quite a good one a couple of years ago, he had few faults such as the paler nose, but was quite good really. I didn't breed him though:


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Rhasputin said:


> I have made sables using just the agouti gene, bred to be dark on the top and light on the bottom.
> Now, they are NOT red, they are brown, black, and with tan and white bellies, but they are 'proper' in the way that they fade from top to bottom in colour.
> 
> I also have a pink eyed version of this, which is silver on the top, then it fades to gold, then fades to white/light straw on the belly.
> ...


Hi Rasputin, would love to see a photo of your Pink eyed Sables, I have never set eyes on them but to me they have the potential to be very striking. I Have three litters in the shed now which will contain lots of them.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

SarahY said:


> It's very interesting that you can't get an albino splashed (a/a c/c Spl/*) I wonder why the splashed gene allows the black to show through on every c-dilute except albino...


The Albino Gene in British Mice does not effect colour at all. What it does do is turn off completly all pigment in the animal. We do not possess a white mouse in the Britsh Fancy. We have albinos which of course are white. If say we had a genetically white mouse the it would be easy to apply the dominant splashing gene. 
We do have the potential for a white mouse, which is the Broken selected for no spots, and there have been succesful studs of them in the past. I have one at the moment, it has a tiny splash of black pigment in the ear.I would imagine if I tried to put it to a splashed it would reinstate some spotting though. That I would imagine would be the way to re- engineer a mouse to better fit the varigated standard. I can see splashed ousting the Brindle. I also have a splashed marked like a Harlequin Rabbit. Exciting times .


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