# red babies



## Jack Garcia

Here are a couple updated pics of the two litters of mice fathered by my red guy:

Red X black:








(three sooty/umbrous reds pictured)

Rex X cinnamon:








(2 cinnamon, 1 red pictured)

Dad:









The original breeder in Europe told me to hang on to the sooty/umbrous reds from the red X black pairing and cross back to the dad to see if that helps bring back the rich red color. I'm going to try that, but I'm not crossing them into the "main line" of reds for at least a few more generations to make sure I don't lose the gorgeous color.


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## Rhasputin

Is that one red baby you ended up with, a buck or a doe?


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## Jack Garcia

A doe.

I've never bred a red doe, preferring instead to breed the cinnamon sisters, but if she seems otherwise healthy at 8-12 weeks, I may cross her back to her father.

Neither of the red males I have are the least bit fat, and they're around 14 weeks old now, so we'll see.

The red X black litter gave me babies with better type but poor color and the red X cinnamon litter was the opposite. I'm wondering if I can't "find the balance" and cross the two, but I'm keeping most of the original reds pure for the time being anyway, at least until they make it out to other people and are more widely kept. I wouldn't want to be the only person in this part of the country with reds, and ruin them all.


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## The Boggit keeper

Those are some gorgeous babes you have there, such super colours.  
Will the colours develop more as they become older or will they stay as they are? Sorry if it's a daft question but my Stone doe has just had a moult and her colour is much darker now, she now also has developed a white nose, tail root and gone white behind the ears- I'm assuming no good for showing but looks pretty cute (it's just as well she's only a pet)


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## Jack Garcia

The reds are supposed to get a bit darker red as they age. I'm waiting to see how the dark backs look after their first molt.


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## WillowDragon

I'd recommend breeding the red doe younger than 12 weeks if you feel comfortable doing so.


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## Jack Garcia

How young, though? I've heard from 6 weeks to 8 weeks to 12 weeks as the earliest age for red does. I think six weeks might be pushing it, but I can try 8 weeks I think.


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## Rhasputin

I wouldn't do 6 weeks. You should definitely play it safe, since you don't have many of these guys.


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## WNTMousery

Rhasputin said:


> I wouldn't do 6 weeks. You should definitely play it safe, since you don't have many of these guys.


Red mice aren't like the mice you keep.

The reason for breeding a red doe before normal breeding age is to "play it safe." Dominant Yellow mice often get obese and have other issues and breeding problems. That is why it is suggested to breed them younger than you would normally breed any other doe.


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## Jack Garcia

I've also heard that show breeders in the UK, Finland and the Netherlands breed them continuously (back-to-back) in order to ensure continued fertility. My gut instinct is that this would be harmful, but it's apparently only a couple litters, then they're retired.

It's weird having a variety who "breeds differently" than the others.


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## WillowDragon

Advice I have been given about red based does (reds and fawns) is to show them in the u8 (kitten) classes, and then breed from 8 weeks old.


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## Jack Garcia

Did they say to breed them back-to-back?

I'm just curious how things are done over there. I don't want to screw up.


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## WillowDragon

I don't recall anything about back to back litters, but i don't imagine only doing it once (one litter born, pregnant straight after) would harm the mommies too mum, i know you feed your girlies well.


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## Cait

SarahC is the best person to ask, since she breeds fawns  I reckon she'll say breed at 8-10 weeks old.

Oh, and a note to the poster who mentioned the stone developing white and being no good for showing - you can't show stone in the UK anyway, it's not a standardised colour


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## Jack Garcia

Here are some more updated pictures. You can really see the difference in color now.

Red X black:

























Red X cinnamon:

















And since somebody asked for proof of their undercoat (they thought they were chocolates)


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## Autumn2005

Do cinnamons vary a lot? I've never seen such a dark cinnamon, but then I'm not actually working with show mice...


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## Jack Garcia

Yeah, they vary as much as chocolate from a deep, reddish brown (what the standards call for) to a light, washed-out color that almost looks beige (which is found in petstore stock). But from a show standpoint I would rather have a took dark, too-evenly ticked animal than a too-light animal with clumps of ticking on the spine (for example). If you were showing cinnamons you'd want them to be a bit redder than some of these are, too--in pictures they _do_ look almost chocolate. They also don't have very good type, which is related to the fact that they're red-related. But they'll be good for breeding more reds as I know they carry nothing at all and have all the pheomelanins needed for good reds.


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## Jack Garcia

This mouse: 









was a very poor (in all respects) pet-type cinnamon.


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## Autumn2005

Could cinnamons be even lighter than that, pet type?


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## Jack Garcia

Yeah, easily. Especially if they carry PEW or other C-dilutes.


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## The Boggit keeper

I just love your red x blacks on your pic update :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 
The little poppet with the slightly darker markings needs to come and live with me


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## Autumn2005

Correct me if I'm worng, but the red gene is very rare, right? At least in the US? Because I picked up what I thought was a chocolate, but when I looked at her next to my other chocolate, she's much redder than my others. Most likely this is just a variation of chocolate, right?


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## Jack Garcia

Well, yes and no. Some reds are Ay/* and some are Avy/* (undermarked brindles) and some are e/e, so it depends on which you are talking about. Jennifer Hipsley (for example) had some really nice recessive reds once. She may still have them, but I don't know for sure. Most of the nicest reds in the US are Ay/A b/b (i.e. dominant red with cinnamon "underneath").

There are around six or seven people who have Ay/* in the US (though there will be more soon since I'm adopting them out to more people) and there are lots who have Avy/* and e/e.


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## Autumn2005

But it wouldn't really be the thing to find in a common pet store, would it? What would be a good cross to see what she is?


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## Jack Garcia

No, I don't know of any petstores that have dominant red mice except for one (and that one may or may not).

I'd cross her with an agouti you're sure doesn't carry recessive yellow. If you get any red babies, she's probably dominant red except if any have stripes, then she's certainly brindle (which can produce solid red mice and mice with stripes). If in that cross you get zero red babies, she's probably recessive yellow.

Her eyes are black, right?


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## windyhill

I have a recessive yellow mouse that is very red in coloring, but she is simply a recessive yellow. I would die if I could find a dom red mouse near me,lol


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## Rhasputin

With all of the mice being bred, and moved around the country, it wouldn't surprise me, to one day find something extremely rare, or new, in a common pet store.


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## Jack Garcia

Once I saw what could only be described as a chimera. It was an agouti mouse with a solid blue patch on it. It was in the feeder bin at Adventure Pets in Berea, Kentucky. It and a lot more mice were being held for a snake breeder to pick up later that day. I tried to make the employees sell it to me anyway (and I offered them a hundred dollars lol) but they refused. 

I suspect that all kinds of things turn up in petstores across the country (and the world), but most people don't realize what they have.


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## Autumn2005

Yes, black eyes. My only agouti male carries recessive yellow, so how would that affect the cross? My other bucks are chocolate and black. Here's some pictures of her with my other chocolate. She has a white heart on her stomach and her tail is half pink, so I figure she carries some sort of spotting.

New girl on bottom









New girl on right









New girl on left









She looks a little redder in person than in the pics... So what do you think, red or just light chocolate?


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## windyhill

Most of the time petstores dont even know what they have,lol.

Chocolates can range in shades, some have more of a reddish tint to them and some are very deep coco colored.


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## Jack Garcia

That mouse is chocolate. She's just a "poor" shade, which hasn't been bred properly. She's very cute!

If she had been recessive yellow and you bred her to a mouse who carried recessive yellow, you'd've gotten some recessive yellow babies.


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## Autumn2005

She might be poor by show standards, but I just love her! :lol: I saw her and two black tans with dark bellies (for pet mice) and just had to snatch them all up! I think her color is just gorgeous, brighter and redder than my other chocolates. Just by off chance, what would a chocolateX dominant red produce?


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## Jack Garcia

Red mice carrying chocolate.

Most good reds are also chocolate (or cinnamon, which is chocolate + agouti) "under" the red.

Your mouse is adorable.


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## Lottiz

Very nice! 
But...i think 12 weeks is young! In Sweden we want our mice to be health, long lived so we preferens to not breed them untill they are 6-10 month! Why hurry?


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## Rhasputin

6-10 months!?!?!

That's so old for just starting to breed!


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## Jack Garcia

Not if you're breeding for longevity specifically. It makes sense to wait as long as possible, for obvious reasons.


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## Rhasputin

Okay yes, I understand if your goal is longevity, I suppose.


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## tipex

for the best Red you needs cordovan choco b(c)... that make the best red i have ever see... black is good but chocolate is better

But i think the littler are so beautifull from you... i love them...

tipex


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## WillowDragon

I wouldn't wait until a doe was 10 months +, but 6 months is perfectly fine I think!


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## Jack Garcia

tipex said:


> for the best Red you needs cordovan choco b(c)... that make the best red i have ever see... black is good but chocolate is better
> 
> But i think the littler are so beautifull from you... i love them...
> 
> tipex


Thanks. I can only take a little bit of credit for these, as the parents were both bred in Europe. These babies are either b/b or bc/bc...I'm not sure how you'd tell the difference in red mice, but they produce cinnamons when bred to each other, so that's how I know.


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## Autumn2005

What do you mean breed for longevity? I mean, I know it means long lives, but /how/ do you breed for longevity?


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## Jack Garcia

Breed females as late as possible and only breed from the males who live the longest. If mouse gets cancer or dies before a certain age (say, 2 years old), remove all its descendants from the gene pool. Breeding for longevity is one of the slowest ways to breed mice. Hehe.

I don't know anybody who breeds _only_ for longevity, though I know a woman in Chicago about ten years ago who did that with rats. She claimed to have rats who routinely lived to 4 or older, but I don't know if I believed her...


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## Autumn2005

Wow, that'd be very hard to do! It'd be very time consuming too, and require a lot of record keeping.


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## windyhill

Ive heard of someone breeding mice for longevity, but I dont remember who.
I would love to breed for longevity, but Im afraid to breed a mouse past like 6 months,lol.
I had a line of rats thats life average was 4 years, but it took me 6 years to get it.


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## moustress

Well, I do that to a certain extent. It's the main reason I don't routinely cull meeces that I normally wouldn't use for breeding. 
A good example of a mousie still living at the age of 2 1/2 years is Mondo, by big orange frizzy boy. I decided to breed him a 2 years plus. Another example was Diamond Stud, who I bred at 3 years plus to a tri doe (it was also in an effort to determine the type of genetic gimmickry done to create my tris years ago in a lab somewhere). I keep health records for my meeces so I kow which ones are the healthiest, and I use that info in selecting which ones to breed. It's not my only criteria, but I consider it among the top three considerations.

Diamond Stud's offspring are being used for the outcross to improve the longevity of my tri line; his boy Sweetheart will be paired off any day now to a couple of nice tri does.


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## Jack Garcia

If you're breeding for pets, I guess that makes sense. In fact, breeding for longevity is counter-productive when showing because you want to "turn out" as many generations as possible in as quick a time as possible so you can make as many improvements as possible. None of my mice are particularly long-lived or particularly short-lived, but for me, it doesn't matter if my mice live 18 months or 32 months because either way (in theory) by that point they'll have many descendants who are better examples than were they.


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## miss.understood

OMG they're gorgeous!


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## tom95

Recently I had two litters, I wanted to get fawns from my reds. I crossed argente male x satin red female and I got from them: pew male, argente tan couple, agouti male and two fawn males, those fawn males now are 2 months ago, and they're great colour from mother.
The second couple was champagne male x satin red female = satin choco sable couple, 3 satin pews females and fawn female - she's about 6 weeks now and she's also still darker .
I think it's my first step to breed fawns  
I know, I like to praise  But the true is that I just want to say you my modest experiences  
The best results in breed reds are when you breed red x red and then like for example in my mousery when all offspring have the same good colour then you can select best mice for type.
Jack somewhere i saw you've got also good agoutis so I think it's better idea to breed reds by cross red x agouti than cross red with black. From cinnamon x red you can get good in colour cinnamons and reds also so that's also good idea if you haven't red females.
I like breed reds, because when I cross red x red i get beautiful reds and cinnamons, agoutis which I really like.
Jack what did you want to get from these litters ? Reds ? Or is it maybe one of your experiment  .


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## Jack Garcia

Tom, thank you for commenting. 

I know it's better to breed agoutis to reds. That's what I generally do (actually, cinnamon, but your point is the same). The only reason I crossed one of my imported males to a "homegrown" black was because the breeder in Europe wanted me to in order to see how the pheomelanins (phäomelanins, or red pigment modifiers) were inherited in animals who have absolutely zero reds in their backgrounds. The results so far are tentative.

I now have a billion cinnamon and agouti females (to the point that I've adopted a couple out as pets, lol), and four or five red females so I'm good at this point. I am keeping two entirely separate lines, though: a) the "pure" European reds, bred only to each other for the past few decades and b) the offspring from the original outcross, bred to each other for the next few years at least.


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