# Ethics - Selling Exhibition/Feeder Stock as Pets...



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Hey all,

I haven't sold/given any mice as pets for some time now, mostly because of very few serious people wanting pet mice and far too many timewasters messing me about, but when I first got my Dutch mice they were rather prone to tumours and I refused to sell them as pets because of this. I explained to the few (serious) enquiries that I had for pet Dutch mice that I didn't think it was ethical on my part to sell a mouse which I knew was likely to be sick later on in life. On the whole, I found my honesty was appreciated.

Although I have not seen a tumour for quite some time (after outcrossing the Dutch to dove self) and I've never seen a health problem in my foxes/chinchillas, it has recently occurred to me that as I only keep mice for six to eight months of their lives I can't ethically sell ANY mice as pets (not that I mind!) - simply because I have no knowledge of any health problems and/or expected lifespan. I imagine most feeder breeders are in the same situation. Longevity is just not important in an exhibition mouse, I'm far more concerned about the myriad of other things one has to get right; colour, type, size, etc, etc.

Does anyone else have any views on this?


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

I really don't see the point in selling feeder-mice as pets because they can be used for food. - most feeder mice are never as big and well fed as pet/show breeding- and after a doe has been bred to 'death' there's no point in selling her as a pet because her life expectancy would be so poor. 
as for breeding stock etc I sell any extra mice born that I don't need for whatever breeding I want to do. any money made just goes strait back into the mice (so they pay mostly for themselves) I've had no problems selling them as pet or to breeders as they are young. Older does/bucks I either keep and retire or sell on informing the buyer of their age, especially if they still have breeding potential -but I don't really sell older ones that often. I plan to keep selling unwanted stock even when breeding better show-line and show next year (hopefully) -even if it's just to help costs/free up space.

any good ol pet-store mice I have had seem to have a shorter life span than the show-liney ones I have, even when the pet store ones haven't been bred but the others have.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

As I've stuck with the varieties I started with several years ago I feel I know my lines quite well.I keep many of my bucks until geriatric and a fair percentage of genetically obese fawns and brindles as companions for bucks and they all live decent lifespans with no particular health issues that would make them unsuitable as pets.However I have no interest in the pet trade,my pets are just that,pets and I wouldn't breed from them.I have no pet mice.I have just given all 200 0f my spare mice in frozen format to Terry Thorne,fellow but non active(at present)mouser for his hawks.He will be getting a further 200 in January.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

I think its reasonable and responsible to hold back selling Pets from a strain of mice that are known to have a age related health issue. I don't think I would be worried about giving a person a pet mouse from any healthy strain though. I much prefer to continue to act as Mother Nature in my shed, but I allow a much higher percentage of the population to survive. I cannot keep up with demand from my Local Falconers, So I see every thing as very well balanced.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I have to say, *morning-star*, I really don't appreciate your comment about feeder breeders breeding their does "to death". While I am a hobby breeder and produce feeder mice on the side, I am certainly not a pet or show breeder. I do not breed does "to death", and would argue that any feeder breeder doing so is not looking at the long-term picture. Two or three litters, depending on the condition of the doe, is tops. If she can't handle a birth-size litter, pinkies become feed. If she can, without compromising either her health or that of the other pinks, great. I also have non-feeder mice, particularly a buck whose original breeder requested that his line be non-feeder-only, but the majority of my mice do provide feeders.

On the topic at hand, I also keep retired breeders for their entire lifespans, and consider this and their health history useful information for times when I do adopt out mice. I give prospective owners every bit of information that I can on what to expect from their mice, from potential lifespan to diseases the mice could possibly get (RI, mites, etc), though the animals are always healthy when they leave here. Since a pet owner here would otherwise be adopting from a mass-market pet store, I figure this is much, much more information that they'd have on the mouse they'd have if they weren't adopting from me. As far as ethics are concerned, that's the best that can be expected. You're providing them the best product available, not necessarily the best possible product.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> I have to say, morning-star, I really don't appreciate your comment about feeder breeders breeding their does "to death".


Nor do I. I know many feeder breeders and they all care about their mice as much as I do, breeding two or three litters with appropriate rest periods between them. I think exhibition and feeder husbandry is very similar really, just a different end.



> I also keep retired breeders for their entire lifespans, and consider this and their health history useful information for times when I do adopt out mice.


When I bred rats I kept them all until old age and could confidently sell healthy pets. As an exhibition mouse breeder I have no space for mice I can't breed or show and therefore I'm not confident in selling mice as pets. But, as SarahC says, showing is what I keep them for, they aren't pets.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Would it be feasible to keep even just one a year from each line, simply for research purpose?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Why? I'd rather not have to deal with selling the odd pet to be honest! I used to do that with my dove self mice, but after so many timewasters (like 99% of all enquiries) it's not worth the hassle. The amount of times I've packed up mice and dragged them about, only for the prospective owner to not bother to turn up. I want to focus on showing, that's where my heart is, I don't need the hassle.

On an aside, one mouse from each line is poor research, really. If I kept ten and one died early in life but nine made it to two years old (or vice versa), then that's fine. But what if the one mouse I picked to keep was the one that died early? Keeping one mouse wouldn't tell me anything.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

If you're not actually interested in selling as pets, why the topic?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

It was just something I was musing over again because I received an email enquiring about pet mice this morning (first one for months), and I wanted to see what other people thought. I wasn't asking if I should sell pets or not. Other exhibition/feeder breeders do sell mice as pets, some don't, I wanted to know their thinking behind it. Just interested, that's all


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I would sell for pets, sparingly, but I mostly sell to other breeders in my area, as there are not many other breeders that track at all around here.
When I sell for pets, the prospective buyer communicates regularly with me throughout the doe's pregnancy and the weaning of the babies. Any lapse in communication or odd things that come up and I have plenty of time to duck out! If I have a random older mouse (not often since I started culling) I will advertise once in a while and screen with lots of questions, information, etc. Any weirdness and I stop communication, especially with a stranger. 
Like I said, with culling I'm pretty much going to keep the ones I want and just have a few spare when they grow into adult type. When anyone asks about pets, I always have a couple I can give them. It doesn't bother me too badly to keep a few extras.
Right now I keep all retired breeding does and most of the bucks. Any small potential health related issues are told upfront to adoptors and they can choose to proceed or not. For example, once in my mousery, a doe had a tumor at a young age. I tried to work with the lines more and I haven't seen anything else pop up, but I did inform the adoptors of her sisters and brother of what happened (none of them had the problem). I'm very upfront about most things like this. Right now my mice just sortof get older and weaker after about 1.5 years and either pass naturally or I PTS when they look to be struggling.
Of course, I don't know what I would do if I had hundreds of mice. Right now I stay under 100, well under. I don't like the feeling of scrambling to find a home for a buck, but if someone approached me I'd just ask the appropriate questions and have them comment on the contract and possibly go ahead with it.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I sell very few pets, but I do sell them.
Mostly, I sell to other breeders, and what doesn't sell becomes feeders. I make pretty good money off of the feeders, because I can sell 60 mice to a single person, rather than taking my time to sell each mouse individually and hope to have them all sold, and waiting months, etc etc.

I think if you -have- someone ask for a pet who is serious, and you have stock available, go ahead and sell them a pet. But I wouldn't bother advertising pets, or bothering with a bunch of people about it.


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

Laigaie said:


> I have to say, *morning-star*, I really don't appreciate your comment about feeder breeders breeding their does "to death". While I am a hobby breeder and produce feeder mice on the side, I am certainly not a pet or show breeder. I do not breed does "to death", and would argue that any feeder breeder doing so is not looking at the long-term picture. Two or three litters, depending on the condition of the doe, is tops. If she can't handle a birth-size litter, pinkies become feed. If she can, without compromising either her health or that of the other pinks, great. I also have non-feeder mice, particularly a buck whose original breeder requested that his line be non-feeder-only, but the majority of my mice do provide feeders.


There's a big difference between you breeding main for hobby with feeder breeder on the side to someone who breeds solely for snake breeding for example. I know big snake breeders who breed mice and rats who I know they will breed a doe more than three times and then cull the doe when the litter sizes she has starts getting too small. What matters to quite a few mass breeders is the amount of mice they can churn out not what is healthy for the doe, especially if they are selling the frozen mice as well. I'm wasn't saying anyone on this forum does this but iv'e spoken to people who does this.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

morning-star said:


> There's a big difference between you breeding main for hobby with feeder breeder on the side to someone who breeds solely for snake breeding for example. I know big snake breeders who breed mice and rats who I know they will breed a doe more than three times and then cull the doe when the litter sizes she has starts getting too small. What matters to quite a few mass breeders is the amount of mice they can churn out not what is healthy for the doe, especially if they are selling the frozen mice as well. I'm wasn't saying anyone on this forum does this but iv'e spoken to people who does this.


I'd have to say that your description fits nearly all the breeders in my area. I don't think they even know that back to back litters and very large litters are unhealthy. Every store in my area breeds in community tanks as do the few home breeders I've seen. I'm very much the exception to the rule as are most of the people on this forum. I'm thankful for the forum to help me overcome the bad advice of the local feeder breeders.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Yes, yes, everyone understands that this happens, and is not uncommon or even quite common with mass-scale breeders or uneducated breeders. What I'm saying is: please do not generalize "feeder breeding" to always mean this. It is unfair to those who do breed for feeder mice in an ethical and healthful way.


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

I was generalising because there is a LOT of feeders that do that. I can't account of nice feeder breeders who take care in their mice because there appears to be only a limited number of them.

my point still stands that I don't really see the point in selling feeder mice as pets.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

High-quality feeder mice are bred to be healthy, have long periods of peak health, and be able to handle great deals of stress (large litters), all so they can have plenty of good-sized babies. If you choose to give your breeding mice good lives, they'll also be well-socialized, because there's no sense in dealing with difficult mice. The above are great things to have in a pet mouse line as well.


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## The Boggit keeper (Mar 5, 2010)

Just as a slight aside, from a Pet mouse owner point of view, I do not breed Mice because I have only ever kept them as pets and cannot imagine myself ever being able to take care of all the aspects of animal husbandry required to breed responsibly, producing only good quality lines, hence why I do not breed. 
However, this does not mean that I don't appreciate a "good mouse" and I was over the moon to talk to a very informative and generous member of this forum who was prepared to let me take home some beautiful mice from his stock to keep as pets.

For me, it is a pleasure to keep animals beautiful to their breed and I for one , genuinely appreciate not only the mice that I have but also the plentiful advice and warm welcome that I have been given into the world of mouse fancy. It is such a shame that some breeders have been treated poorly by some pet-keepers,it seems to me that a little more respect is due to the breeder who has generously given access to their stock.


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

I second Boggit. I would give a good chunk of time, money, and effort to get a good, healthy breeder mouse. I love my feeder mice, and as far as pet shoppers are concerned my mice are georgous, and they are visible well cared for, but compared to other's stock, they aren't very pretty at all. (well, I think so, but they're my babies.) I know they have health trouble and I know I will loose them fairly young because of it, although me and my vet will try our best to give them the most time possible. I love them very much, and I wish they'd live longer. A healthy breeder mouse usually does, not to mention the colors available! I'm a sucker for blue fox and nice brokens.

If I ever have the chance, I'll get a breeder mousey, love it to shreds. Most pet owners don't love mice that way or see them as disposable, but I don't. So, don't lump us all together.


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

I sell both to other breeders and to pet owners.
I started off as a pet owner, so I know there are pet lovers will treat their mice the way I want them too.
I do prefer to sell to other breeders though, as long as they share the same guidelines I do.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't sell my babes, simply because of the mindset of people around here.
In my community id a animal doesn't pull it's weight, then it is food. If it isn't food, it is useless. I know for a fact my babies would go as live food, so I just cull out the ones I can't use for breeding.

I breed pet types, But I'm trying to improve them so maybe my opinion isn't exactly what is needed.
I would love to get a hold of some show types , but I'm having trouble find any in reach.
A nice typed blue or two would be worth their weight in gold.
I recently related to another member that any nice blues are like unicorns to me.

A mythical, beautiful creature that only lucky people get to see.xD
Pets tend to be loved in a different kind of way and for longer,so I would gladly sell to a pet keeper.


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