# My Three Mice



## YuukikoOgawa

I'm going to try and upload pictures, and I'm not sure if it will work, but here goes! Oh, and all of them are does.

1. Mocha
-Longhaired
-Choclate Variegated
-The leader of the group, spends a lot of time grooming everyone else

2. Caramel
-Either Recessive Yellow or Lethal Yellow...? Not sure, breeder said RY but also mentioned issues with obesity which I read tends to happen more with Fawn/Lethal Yellow because of how the genes code for storing the yellow pigment in the fat cells.
-Seems to be the relaxed and curious one.

3. Kahlua
-Black tan doe.
-Extremely high energy, kind of nervous and jumpy compared to the others.

(Nevermind, will post pics later. One I figure out how to shrink the file or something...)


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## Frizzle

I read your other post about absorbing better from pictures then words, & wanted to link you to some of how brindle & RY can look similar.

This is litter of a range of brindles, from straight yellow to striped: http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7129

That being said, while certain varieties tend to have defining characteristics (anemia, obesity, small size), lines of mice can have characteristics that other mice in the variety lack. So it could very well be that your mouse is simply RY & fat, if that is what the original breeder has been selecting for, intentionally or not. The only way to find out would be by test breeding, otherwise it really is just an educated guess.


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## YuukikoOgawa

Caramel doesn't seem overweight herself, I just remember the breeder mentioning it as a concern in that line, and I remembered reading about the two different yellow genes.

I don't plan on ever breeding these three; I'm just starting out and it will be a few years before I have the resources for breeding. So I guess in a lot of ways it's sort of a moot point what genes she has.

I did notice that she's got these small patches that look almost pale blue-gray rather than yellow, which I thought was pretty cool. They're pale enough to blend in most of the time, but every once in a while I catch her under the right light and the little blue patches become more obvious.


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## YuukikoOgawa

This is the site I found with the info on the difference between recessive yellow and "lethal yellow":

http://www.thefunmouse.com/varieties/selfcolors.cfm#RY

It's about halfway down the page, I think?

Since I'm not planning on breeding her at all, my main concern is just possible health problems that wouldn't be issue if she turns out to be a genuine recessive yellow.

Hopefully I can upload pictures soon; she is a really pretty color, sort of a pale lemon color?


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## NikiP

What colored eyes does Caramel have?

Color may not necessarily be a concern, but as you've started to see, that information can be helpful for more then just breeding  What I find more interesting about most mouse colors is that if you google specific ones, usually research papers pop up with info on what was being researched when it appeared.

As Frizzle said, not everything is 100%. I was given brindles by a feeder breeder, this person didn't know what he had. Obesity is a huge issue with them also, not a good thing for that situation at all. I'm still not sure how he manages to successfully produce feeders given that it's predominate in his bins. Out of the ones I kept, one female is a chunker. She milks like a horse & her babies are chunkers. The second female isn't a chunker. The third I thought was going to be a chunker, but since moving her into a bin with other young females, more room, & saucers, she isn't chunky at all. My theory is that his line may not have predominate weight issues. Will be interesting to see how the babies from #1 & #2 turn out. Used a nonbrindle buck with weight issues with the chunker & a slimmer buck on the slimmer brindle.


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## YuukikoOgawa

She's got pink eyes.

She's such a pale shade of bright yellow that I think she may have something else in there too.

I keep trying to figure out how to upload a picture, but the forum keeps saying the file is too big and I have no idea how to make it smaller.

I'll have to see if I can find a picture of a mouse with a similar color.


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## YuukikoOgawa

Here's a link to the closest I can find to Caramel's shade of yellow:

http://www.espcr.org/micemut/a007.jpg

That site says the one on the left (closest to Caramel's color) is a "wild-type agouti in pink-eyed dilution."

It's genotype is listed as A^+/A^+ p/p.


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## Frizzle

Try uploading the picture to somewhere like facebook or photobucket. You can either link us to the image (but then you'd have to make it a public setting for fb, and idk if you want to do that), or you right click the image, then select "view image info" (on firefox this works for sure), then copy the highlighted the line of text & paste here. Highlight that newly pasted line, & press the IMG button at the top of your post a reply box and it should work.


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## YuukikoOgawa

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Hopefully this link will work!

I'd uploaded this picture on the West Coast Mice group on Facebook, as well as my own timeline, so hopefully this version will be available to view publicly. 

Should have pictures of the other two up there, too.


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## Frizzle

We don't have permission to view, can't wait for the public pics!


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## YuukikoOgawa

It's still not showing?

Dangit...okay, I may have to seriously consider this Photobucket thingy...


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## Frizzle

The link works, it's probably whatever privacy settings you have you fb set to.


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## YuukikoOgawa

I usually have my Facebook privacy settings set to a pretty strict level.

I've had enough experience with cyber bullies that I don't want to leave any ammunition laying around.

I'm working on the Photobucket option though. I might need to ask my sister to add a watermark of some sort just to be safe.

I'm really falling in love with Caramel's color, and I'm really hoping that WCM is able to start some mouse shows up closer to my area. I found some pictures from a UK show for best-in-class in Gold color; I think Caramel is just a little too pale, but the picture was of a mouse with dark eyes rather than pink eyes too.

I think if I start any breeding projects in the next year or so, it would involve either Caramel or Mocha. Not Kahlua; she's way too hyper and nervous, and she's not that great of a tan; just personality-wise, I wouldn't want to encourage a nervous disposition in my mice.

Caramel has that gorgeous Lemon/Gold color, with no sootiness, so I'd have to figure out how to maintain that color while improving body type. And Mocha has a wonderful personality, plus the longhair, variegated markings, and...she's with a light chocolate or maybe coffee? So I guess with her, the focus would be on improving the longhair a bit (more consistently fluffy rather than scruffy)...

I'll get those public pictures up soon!


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## YuukikoOgawa

Finally got them up on Photobucket!

Here goes nothing!

First is Caramel (recessive yellow, pink-eyed dilution):



Then Mocha (longhaired, variegated, not sure if light mock chocolate or coffee?):



And Kahlua (black tan):


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## Frizzle

Not bad! You've got one of the key concepts, small space for minimal mouse movement. A few suggestions, put them near a window, the natural light will help with color. Also, unless you've got a good macro setting & lots of good light to combo it with, you might want to try taking pictures farther away, and then zooming & cropping.

With breeding mocha, have you read into how variegated is a lethal gene when paired with another variegated? Just something to think about with that variety, not to deter you or anything. I think their skunky little heads are so cute! Below is a link to what anemic young look like, & inside is another link to a more extreme example.
http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14033&p=124234&hilit=anemic#p124234


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## YuukikoOgawa

Thanks for the photo tips! I noticed the other mouse enthusiasts at WCM had theirs posing on wine glasses, so I tried that...I just couldn't get them to hold still.

Unfortunately, the only camera I have is my phone, so that sort of limits the quality a bit...

And yeah, I know about the lethal whites. Another breeder nearby had a few from a pairing where one mouse was a sneaky variegated; the does was confirmed to be vari, but the buck looked like a piebald or splashed and turned out to be actually vari.

We had some similar issues when my friend's grandmother was breeding Australian Shepherds. For them, it's the merle gene that causes lethal whites. We know Dozer, the stud, was a blue merle, but Baby (the bitch) was listed on her papers as being a regular red and white, no merle at all. Then some customers started calling and threatening to sue because their puppies turned out to be lethal whites; we had no idea how, Baby's breeder kept insisting they did all the required testing and that Baby wasn't a merle.

We finally did the testing ourselves and found that Baby was actually a merle...she just didn't look like one. So no more dog breeding, since my friend's grandmother couldn't really keep up anymore and no way would Baby tolerate another female nearby.

I think if I breed Mocha at all, my first focus would be on the longhair and body type, and maybe breeding some stronger contrast between colors? I'm still not sure what her base color really is; is she chocolate, and the long hair is just making it look lighter?

I've also heard that you can get great vari markings if you breed a vari mouse to a mouse that appears self but had a vari parent? Supposedly you get the same ratio of vari vs. self as you do from a vari x vari cross, or a vari x self, but you get better marking than the second cross and less risk of lethal whites than the vari x vari cross...

And...how is Caramel on color? Is RY supposed to be stronger, or is that light lemon pretty good?


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## Miceandmore64

CARAMEL IS STUNNING!


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## YuukikoOgawa

Yeah...she's also a brat who ate her babies and starved a few others. She was scheduled to be snake food, except one of my friend's bucks took a liking to her. So now we're waiting on her newest litter, and hoping she won't eat these ones.


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## Miceandmore64

Well although the temperature could be passed down have you thought of trying to breed three litters at same time to same buck and if one of the others has a small litter give her a few of caramels baby's as her colour would be a shame to lose it.


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## YuukikoOgawa

Her color really isn't worth it. She's supposed to be a brindle, but she has no stripes, and is too much on the chubby side. Her type isn't very good and she has a bad personality, so after this newest litter she's done for.

I don't breed multiple litters to the same buck for several reasons. One, it makes it very difficult to tell which babies belong to who, which in turn completely ruins my ability to track genetics and pedigrees. Two, if I did that, I would end up completely overrun by mouse babies. I keep my breeding projects small and strictly controlled so that I don't let myself get tricked into taking on way more than I can handle.


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## Miceandmore64

I see I breed no more than 2 litters at a time. Do you keep your nursing does together?


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## YuukikoOgawa

Usually not. I usually keep each nursing doe with one "nanny," which is a female mouse that is experienced, but hasn't been bred at that time. The nanny helps keep the babies clean and warm so the mother can take a break, and a nanny who has helped with other litters or has had litters of her own can also help keep a new mother calm.


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## Miceandmore64

A nanny yeah I have never used one would you recommend it?


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## YuukikoOgawa

Yes, I would recommend it. With caution; mice have independent personalities, and some might not get along.


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## Miceandmore64

Hmm sounds good how old would the nanny have to be?


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## YuukikoOgawa

Haven't worried much over the age, since once a mouse reaches full maturity the age difference wouldn't matter much.


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## Miceandmore64

Like would a 4 week old mouse be able to be a nanny or not? Like 2 months decent? I think I may be able to use a nanny on my next litter


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## YuukikoOgawa

A four week old mouse is barely even weaned, so no, a four week old mouse would not work. I would give them a minimum of three months before using them as a nanny, and even then I would only pair them with a more experienced female mouse who can teach them while they help out with her litter.


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## Miceandmore64

Just checking thanks! I may not use a nanny for my next litter as it will be a very important litter (after I work out something with the doe who is sneezing)


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