# Can mice have milk?



## mousery_girl

It'll be either skimmed or semi, can she have it instead of water she's a little skinny and doesn't like eating much?


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## tinyhartmouseries

No, they are lactose intolerant (despite the famous "mouse with cheese" misnomer)
You can give them plain soymilk, or KMR soaked oatmeal!

Oh, but mice always need clean water available to them, so the soymilk/kmr needs to be given treat style in a small dish or something.


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## Cait

If a mouse is thin it's usually due to illness rather than underfeeding. One reason that she may not eat is overgrown teeth, but I haven't heard of this happening often in mice (but I have in other animals whose teeth also constantly grow and need to be worn down). As someone said, you could make porridge up with KMR (Lactol in the UK) and offer some more protein, carbohydrate and fatty foods to try and build her up, but she may need to see a vet. Do you have any photos of her showing an accurate picture of her overall bodyweight/size?


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## moustress

Cream, heavy cream, has next to no lactose in it. It doesn't take much, just a few drops on a piece of dry bread. Lactol is probably better, but may not be available where you live. Scrambled egg with a little water like 1/2 teaspoon) after swished into it before cooking (I nuke my scrambled eggs, mmmm...so good..(it takes just about a minute, be sure to scramble first...or it gets remarkably messy as the yolk goes KABLOOEY! Way too much fun if you ask me which I guess you sort of did....)


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## mousery_girl

ok thanks guys, I thought about the teeth thing too but I had a look and they're fine, I'll try the soymilk, cream and scrambled egg!


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## Wight Isle Stud

Where is your proof that mice must not have Milk, as It comes. Show me the Original source of that Information please.


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## moustress

Wight Isle Stud said:


> Where is your proof that mice must not have Milk, as It comes. Show me the Original source of that Information please.


Uh-huh; some of my does will not take any substitute for moo juice. And others leave the scrambled egg alone. I've tried plain whey from my home made yogurt, but, you know, I wouldn't drink that stuff, so I guess it's not too surprising that they wouldn't either.

As far as lactose intolerance goes, is that a liver problem? I thought lactose intolerance was seen as intestinal problems. Or is it a problem with enzymes, in which case yogurt can be used. Tell me if I'm wrong, please!


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## SarahC

I think it should state 'weaned' mice 'can' be lactose intolerant as can any adult mammal including humans.Milk is for babies as we all know but most of us consume large quantities even though we were weaned decades ago.There's loads of literature on lactose intolerance in mice but the mice are lab strains developed for lactose investigation.It's not as simple as a straight comparison.I use 18 pints of cows milk a week for my mice so I'm afraid any lactose intolerant ones will be long gone.Still I would think there are many more suitable foods for underweight animals if in doubt.


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## moustress

As I suspected; digestive intolerance can be a problem in any case, but for meeces that get it from the time they are up and around the nest, you'd think they'd be able to tolerate it. I still think if it's a lactose problem using something higher in butterfat would be preferable, which is why I geive them whole milk.

Dr. Oz sez more or less, 'Don't use skim or 1%. You get too much sugar. Stick with 2% if you feel you have to cut down. If you don't have a problem that requires cutting down, stick with whole milk. It adds to satiety and cuts down impulses to overeat.'

PARAPHASING only.

He's paid to be right, though...shouldn't and wouldn't believe everything one hears on TV


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## SarahY

> Where is your proof that mice must not have Milk, as It comes. Show me the Original source of that Information please.


Haha, the only animals which should be drinking cow's milk are calves 

Cow's milk is actually very difficult for other mammals, including us, to digest. But it doesn't generally cause enough problems to worry about it and is a valuable source of other things. We've given up the cow juice in our house because my husband is allergic to it and I don't go through enough on my own to warrant buying it. The change in both of us has convinced me not to feed it to any animals ever again. I've felt so much better and I didn't even realise there was a problem in the first place! Try it, give up cow milk for a month and see how different you feel 

Unlike cow's milk, goats milk is actually good for us. Unfortunately, it would take a LOT to change our global milk supply from cattle to goats.

Despite everything I've said, healthy mice have been raised for over a century on stale bread and milk. That fact can't be denied


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## Frizzle

^^^
My understanding regarding goats, is that in larger herd numbers they get sick a lot more often. Stress/disease runs faster, idk, but that's what I heard. Had one family friend who had a pretty big dairy herd, but I've never owned any so I don't know if its true.


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## moustress

Argue with the mod? Sure.

Some of us need the butterfat for metabolic reasons. Goat's milk cheese is hard to come by, and, while I've had it, I won't pay thru for the nose for something I don't like. I don't drink much milk, I don't use much butter, and my lipids are in great order.

I believe in a healthful balance, not extreme avoidance. If I had a problem with digesting dairy, I'd think about it. I have some concerns about BGH, but not about use of dairy in moderation.

I'd still like to see documentation for either assertion; that milk is bad for mousies, or that it is bad for humans.


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## Laigaie

The dairy farmer we bought from when we were buying goat's milk had a fairly decent-sized dairy herd and has had no trouble with disease in the several years that she's been farming. Good husbandry practices, good sanitation practices, and always always always quarantining new animals, she says, has saved her herd when others disappear. To contrast, all the dairy farmers we know (other than the one we actually buy our milk from) keep the majority of their herd medicated in some way or another pretty much constantly. If it's not ivermectin, it's antibiotics for mastitis, or ointment for wounds, or ugh. Plenty of things I don't want to drink. The dairy farmer we do buy from has exactly TWO head of adult dairy cattle, plus the calves. Really easy to keep everyone healthy when you just have two.

Basically, milk *can* be bad. If you don't keep consuming dairy your whole life, you'll lose your ability to digest it at all. If you're worried about BGH, go organic. If you're worried about digestibility, go raw milk, and if even that's too much, goat's milk is much more digestible. LOCAL raw milk has also been shown to help with seasonal allergies. I'm also a fan of healthful balance, and, like Dr. Oz, I'm also a big proponent of the idea that fat doesn't make you fat. Fat can cause blood lipid problems, particularly saturated fats and cholesterol, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up lean raw meats and the eggs from my chickens. It just means I'm not going to eat any of it every day.

For mice, though, it seems like it's a matter of individuals. Just like most persons of Asian descent are lactose-intolerant, there are plenty of mice who can't handle it. If your mice can, milk (cow/goat/whatever) has lots of awesome vitamins, minerals, good fats, and proteins that can make a big difference in helping them get through rough patches. If they can't, they can't.

What I'm surprised by is the fact that this comes up so often. Is there perhaps a way we can put up a FAQ section with links to appropriate threads? The idea being that we'll have a permanent link to a thread or two putting forth the majority of opinions on the subject, so that when someone new comes along and brings it up again, we'll have somewhere to point. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of: milk, corn, how to sex, they won't breed, males are stinky, separate males please, fat mouse, and cull or not cull.


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## Frizzle

How to make tri-colors is one I've seen crop up a few times since I joined.

Just wanted to say I grew up with dairy cows, and if a cow had mastitis, it didn't go into the bulk tank and instead got dumped out for the cats. The chunks clog the filter, as well as it ruins the entire tank which you'd then have to dump. I always thought it was something that got tested for, and was why we didn't put it in. Mastitis was a killer for us, we'd get maybe one case a year with pretty low success rate, like 9 out of 10 would die. They'd get a fever so we couldn't/wouldn't eat the meat, I always felt like it was such a waste of cow.

I've always liked the idea of having only a couple dairy, with rotating the breeding cycle so you have one in production. What breed does your dairy farmer go with?


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## Laigaie

How to make tris has definitely come up a good few times. That's worthwhile, too.
In that the bacterial count of the tank is tested, mastitis is tested-for, yes. Mastitis is definitely a waste of a cow. I remember our roommate, who was Arkansas Dairy Princess while we were in high school, did her speech thing on preventing mastitis. Our farmer keeps Jersey only.


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## WoodWitch

SarahY said:


> Haha, the only animals which should be drinking cow's milk are calves


Good point Sarah, agreed!

My body doesn't like milk/dairy products too well. When I discovered I was intolerant I read a load of lit on the subject and I remember reading that intolerance to lactose and milk protein is far more common than you'd ever think. There was also some evidence to support that the incidence of breast cancer could have a link to the consumation of milk (incidence in the western world being high as opposed to low in the eastern world where dairy is rarely consumed at all)

I don't feel strongly about it. I give my mice bread/milk mash on ocassion with no issue.......


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## Wight Isle Stud

Good Balanced replies to my question. My Target this year is to stop Myths being perpetuated by people repeating them without qualification. Although it took nearly a year or more, most people now understand that Inbreeding does not produce animals with three heads, although it will often crop up. Hopefully we can now put to rest the Milk Fallacy, and agree that it is possible that some mice will have a lactose intolerance, as in the human Population.The benefits far outweigh any disadvantage. Senior NMC Breeders do not shell out on 18 pints of milk a week for no reason. They are the ones to listen to, large numbers of mice to evaluate it properly on, and the results shown in fabulous condition on the show bench.


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## moustress

I'm surprised no one brought up the Mucus issue; how bad it is, how milk and meat make you make more of it, and why that is supposed to be bad.

Anyone?

(I was tempted to say, "Any one for Mucus?")

ps mucus is not all bad in my opinion; life starts in mucus, and many biological processes require mucus


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## SarahY

> I'm surprised no one brought up the Mucus issue; how bad it is, how milk and meat make you make more of it, and why that is supposed to be bad.


Don't even go there!  One of the biggest benefits to giving up milk was that my husband stopped snoring! Mucus is a BIG contributor to snoring. The proteins in milk are similar to the proteins in the common cold, and the body produces mucus as a byproduct of fighting the 'cold' it thinks it has. He used to snore so loudly I couldn't sleep, now I don't hear a peep out of him unless he actually has a cold (which is rare).

I'm so happy in my milk-free house  :lol:

Edited to add - 
Wight Isle Stud, for your reading pleasure, some links:
From an osteoporosis organisation: http://saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/
Explaining why processed milk is even worse by Frank Oski, M.D: http://www.formerfatguy.com/articles/dont-drink-milk.asp
Even more reasons against cow milk: http://www.waoy.org/9.html


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## Cait

Wight Isle Stud said:


> Senior NMC Breeders do not shell out on 18 pints of milk a week for no reason.


Just because it's Sarah's birthday at the end of the month doesn't mean that she'll appreciate being called senior :lol:


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## moustress

I got my spouse to switch from whole milk to 2% for most things; he'd revolt entirely if I stopped letting him have his whole milk and a little bit of butter. I'm not an expert on Milk and Mucus, by any means. Is is the sugar, the protein, of the fat that does it?

Not that I'm planning to give up any of them any time soon. I've been told about the problem, but since I have overly dry sinuses, I actually try to encourage Mucus to help me out. The meeces seem to thrive on it; if one or two can't take it and don't thrive, that's evolution in action, and considering how short the generations are, I'd bet most English show meeces are already able to take milk without damage.

And as far as allergy problems, I'm starting to think, from current immunological theory, that sensitivities depend as much on the timing of the exposure that brings on allergy or intolerance as it does on individual makeup. I say this because I was diagnosed as being allergic to a HUGE list of things when I was about 19 yrs. old. It was right after a bout of severe bronchitis. I avoided those items for awhile (like a year or so) got tired of being hungry for things I craved, and started adding those things back to my diet bit by bit. There turned out to be only about three things out of a list of about sixty that cause problems, and I believe those are mostly chemical sensitivities or vasomotor reactions to things in the environment.

The murine model for allergies can't be that much different than the human model.


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## Wight Isle Stud

Thank you, I enjoyed my reading pleasure, all I can say is its a good job your not mice in my stud. Especially the excess mucus bit.


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## moustress

Have I offended somebody? :roll:

I thought this was on topic.


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## SarahY

Not that I can see sweetie, why would you think that?  xx


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## moustress

...something about milk not being suitable for...etc., etc. .....nvm :|


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## SarahC

MouseBreeder said:


> Wight Isle Stud said:
> 
> 
> 
> Senior NMC Breeders do not shell out on 18 pints of milk a week for no reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because it's Sarah's birthday at the end of the month doesn't mean that she'll appreciate being called senior :lol:
Click to expand...

you are so right.I've always been smugly proud of the fact that I've been allergy free all of my life but in the last decade I've become allergic to a few things.Raw potatoes,cream make up and moisturises,hair removing cream,oats to name a few.I guess with these things there's no definitive answers.


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## SarahC

moustress said:


> Have I offended somebody? :roll:


 :?:not that I can see either. Been an interesting exchange.Might explore the alternatives to cows milk for myself.Although my interest would stem more from the fact that I think dairy cows get a poorer quality of life than beef but that's another debate.


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## Laigaie

Goats have lovely quality of life! If you go local, you can even go meet them. Or stick with cow's milk, and buy under the table. I've no clue what the laws on that are in the EU, but they're probably not as ridiculous as here. See, in the US, we think it's worth months of undercover work and a SWAT team to take down an organized raw milk co-op. :roll: We're smart like that. Personally, I won't use store milk for my mice. For them, it's either raw or goat. I feel like the benefits to me are great enough, but the benefits to them are worth the price tag, too. Then again, I don't give my mice store eggs, either. Maybe I'm just spoiled. :lol:


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## SarahC

rules are tight here as well.I buy a brand of eggs called woodland eggs . The reason I get them is that I saw the actual farm featured on a cooking program.The hens have a good quality life and the eggs are called woodland because the hens have wooded areas to roam in.It's hard to do everything ethical but everyone can make a difference for just a few pence when it comes to the egg industry.Mind you,I see that we are moving towards intensively reared beef over here,the days of beasts in the fields look numbered.


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## SarahY

> all I can say is its a good job your not mice in my stud.


I think it's a shame, I would be a BIS win for you 



> I buy a brand of eggs called woodland eggs . The reason I get them is that I saw the actual farm featured on a cooking program.The hens have a good quality life and the eggs are called woodland because the hens have wooded areas to roam in.It's hard to do everything ethical but everyone can make a difference for just a few pence when it comes to the egg industry.


Absolutely, I buy the same eggs for the same reasons. I would rather go without eggs than buy ones from caged hens. I'd rather go without bacon if there is no British bacon available. Which seems to often be the case, sadly


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## Frizzle

^^^
Just a question for you ppl in overseas, but its my understanding that in general there isn't as much space for grazing and raising animals as say, in the US. Would you say that is true, or mostly true? I know I'm generalizing, but I figure the idea stemmed from somewhere, and I was wondering if there is any validity to it.


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## SarahC

intensive rearing of beef is only just taking off in a big way in the U.K.Most beef still has grazing.Intensive rearing of beef is more popular in other Europen countries.It's the same as any other business,farmers need to make a profit.I'm like Sarah and try to buy British,I'd certainly never buy Danish pig meat.Not that it's great here but there are better welfare rules in place even if they are sometimes flouted.


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## kellyt

A friend of mine used to raise pigs for meat but due to the prices in Europe there is barely any money in it at the moment.

Its like the whole veal debate people think it is raised in small dark places which they can do in Europe but most veal here is very well looked after.

I have to say that I do buy eggs from "free range" farms but I do think its never going to stop hens being caged its been done for far too long and is there is too much demand.


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## SarahC

battery hen cages as they exist at the moment are to be banned in eu countries this year.The replacements aren't great but they are a bit bigger and have to have a perch.


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## SarahY

> I do think its never going to stop hens being caged its been done for far too long and is there is too much demand.


It's sad to think that people still support this miserable type of farming just to save a few pence


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## mousery_girl

i totally agree with SarahY  i thought there would be more grazing in the us as its huge!


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## Laigaie

Battery farming of hens actually hasn't been done that long. It really only started to get big in the thirties. Compared to the history of the domestication of the chicken, that's not long at all. We do have a far larger population of chickens and cows than the UK overall, simply because the grazing style of production is preferred in both places. If you don't have enough land for cattle, you just don't raise cattle.


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