# Two males?



## JCC

It is apparently a debated topic, and I was wondering if it is okay to keep a pair of male mice in a suitable size cage. Please answer from personal experience ONLY.
God Bless.


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## ThatCertainGlow

From my personal experience, NO, and yes. Because of the no, and how bad that NO can get, is why keeping males apart is recommended. Often people have some success doing so with un-bred male groups until they are about 8 weeks to 3 months old.

Past that point, it is more likely to get deadly at a moments notice, and usually in the hours that humans sleep. The deadly part can happen before 3 months. (Not my experience, but just saying you're not always safe earlier.)

I had males that got along just fine, their whole lives. But I also slept right next to my mice, and flew out of bed at the sound of a dominance tiff that wasn't flowing correctly. The males that had to be separated, really couldn't live with another male.

Or at least not in my experience, and trying everything I could think of. Those males were like that mostly before being bred, so their virgin status didn't help. Mice are individuals, but I don't think, personally, that males who get along with other males are a good thing to bred towards. Even thought it is more convenient. Those mice who got along just fine with males were not my most...um... well, not the best breeders. Even the does seemed to feel that way.

-Zanne

*edited to add* The large cage idea (over 2 ft) didn't work for me, as a social thing, for two average males. They divided up the territory, and woe be the transgressor. Might as well have been two cages. Had to carefully hang two water bottles, two feeding items, everything in twos.


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## pro-petz

Unrelated males I have found will not get along once they reach maturity. Related males that have been together since birth I have found they will co habit reasonably well with the odd disturbance but once they have been with a female then will not get along with a male again including a sibling.

Whether size of enclosure has any other bearing on the possibility of a peaceful co habitation with other males can only speculate that the enclosure would have to extremely large to give each a sufficient territory, a size of which may need to equate to that of a wild mouse or close to it of some 10 square metres per mouse.

Dividing a cage equally with single mesh does not stop the damage to toes that appear through the mesh divide unless a double mesh is applied allowing sufficient gap so that toes etc can not be reached by male in adjoining section.


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## Rodentman

Well I have 7 bucks together in the same cage (all brothers) and they are 5 months old now and get on fine from what I see and I check each buck every day for any signs of blood or marks on them and so far, nothing.

I ain't gonna split them up unnecessarily as I go by the old rule, no blood, no foul.

You might see little squabbles but it doesn't always end in out and out fighting.

I say go for it but be prepared to split them up if necessary


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## JCC

JCC said:


> It is apparently a debated topic, and I was wondering if it is okay to keep a pair of male mice in a suitable size cage. Please answer from personal experience ONLY.
> God Bless.
> 
> ThatCertainGlow, have you tried housing brothers who have not been with a doe? If so, we're they rather peaceful?


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## WoodWitch

I've had much success housing bucks together but would never advise it as safe for any mouse keeper. Bucks that grow on together and have never been with a doe seem to get along well enough, whilst bringing two older males together presents more difficulties. Much depends on the mice themselves though; some strains are particularly docile whilst other strains are more inclined towards wild behaviour. There is no definitive answer to your question unfortunately.


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## Skye_29

I've put a pair of males together since yesterday. There were a few squabbles, but I was up late and nothing serious happened. One male is 4 weeks and the other is 5, so they're still rather young, not sure how it will play out but I can separate if neacessary. The older guy wants to sniff and check over the younger but the younger squeaks and pushes him away, that's all I've witnessed so far.


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## ThatCertainGlow

JCC said:


> ThatCertainGlow, have you tried housing brothers who have not been with a doe? If so, we're they rather peaceful?


Most often any males I was attempting to house together were highly related brothers, and had not been with a doe because I was still waiting to see something specific about them. The exception to that was foster brothers, but it wasn't often that I felt the need to hang onto two or three unrelated males out of a 'litter'. That happened when I would 'create' a buck only litter, from different lines. Those few unrelated pairs or trios never got along, after about 4-6 months, for me. I think they smell too different from each other upon sexual maturity.

Sometimes the brothers got along for a time (anywhere from 3 months to over a year), then not. Sometimes they, or one of them, decidedly did not get along. Sometimes they got along their whole lives, even after one, or both/all three, had a visit with a doe (HIGHLY unusual). It could change in a few hours from 'hi buddy' to 'HATE!'. It only takes one testosterone fueled male to make it not work. From what I observed, living together appeared to cause more stress for a normal male, than living alone did. Even if he often didn't have a doe companion while living alone. Obviously, the rare exceptions felt differently, and showed more stress at times when they were alone.

Maybe I should explain how rare those exceptions were. Out of hundreds over about 5 years of active, constant breeding, I had TWO groups that worked out lifelong, composed from related mice of different ages. Then a handful, not at the same time, that worked out for over a year, un-bred. It's not really natural, so you're hoping for unnatural circumstances/mice, each time. I have read that there is less fighting in larger groups. I have no personal experience of trying to keep more than three together, past 3 months, due to not having five foot cages. It seems to me that the older they get, the more likely it would be similar to a prison yard atmosphere, that kept them from fighting, for an average male; and less like you would hope.


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## Seafolly

Can I ask those who were successful with it, how large were the tanks? I have two males (4 days old) that I'll keep until they're weaned but I expect it will take time to rehome one. My plan is to put them on an entirely different floor than my does, but also wondered if a habitat can be too large (encourages territorial behaviour) or too small (stressful).


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## DaisyTailsMousery

I kept two males (father and son) together in a 50 gallon tank for almost a year. I had two water bottles and two wheels and each kind of had their own territory. I also scatter fed so it would be less likely that they would fight for food. This worked for almost a year, but then they got in a fight when I wasn't home and the son killed the father. So I would suggest using a large cage, big enough for each male to have his own space


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## PPVallhunds

It can't be guaranteed, I've kept a group of 5 virgin bucks tougher no problem, the odd squabble when one over stepped the mark but a quick telling off by the buck in charge and all was well again. The group ended up as a pair as they got older and started dieing off. I bred one and put him back thinking it would be fine as they were only appear for a few hours but he attacked the other so badly he had to be put down.

Had a pair from a breeder, tougher all there life and were adults. But not long after I had them one was constantly bullying the other. Had 3 brothers sent to me, I was having one and the others were going to another breeder, they were 8 weeks and were fighting. Had brothers who were fine until 12 weeks then started fighting.

I keep my weaned bucks tougher until a max of 12 weeks then I pick who is staying for breeding.

So much of if it will work or not comes down to the individual personalities. The group I had the buck in charge was a loverly boy, very friendly and he never took telling off the others too far. Just a quick telling and never chased after them when they ran, however one of the bucks in the same group was like his horrible dad, occasionally he would tell of an annoying boy but he would chance after him and would take it too far if allowed. The nice buck all most lost his tail to another buck when I first got them as all the mice were tougher and the dominant buck was a right piece of work, a horrible mouse who spent his time bullying others and attacked a few before I could get the space to split them.

So in my experience it can be done but it can't be guaranteed and if you try you must be prepared to split at any time and never breed them.


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## ThatCertainGlow

I am not sure if I count as one of the successful, exactly? 
The males were housed in a number of sizes, depending on the mice. That's not terribly specific, but they weren't either.  Exterior measurements of largest cage: about 2.75' by.. I think it was 1.5 ft, not sure about that, but I recall it being a stretch across (I'm short). So, 30-40 gal? Normal 10 gals (20" X 10"?), normal 20 gals (24" X 12"?), and a few stretched 20 gals. It either got divided up, or it didn't. Space wasn't always helpful or unhelpful, with any of mine. Some worked better in less space then I would want to house them, some needed more. Don't think I ever put two in a 5 gal, except during cage cleaning, although I had one.

Toys were more likely to be a problem for me. Many toys didn't solve that. I guess I had male hoarders. Two bridges, and all four wheels, were once being guarded by one 4 month old; in a trio of males. After I removed all the toys, he was a congenial cage-mate. Didn't leave that set up in place, because two were high energy males, and needed more things to do. Any male guarding a water bottle, was usually not going to work out as a buddy. Toys, yes. Water, no. I always transferred bedding (the stuff they used for sleeping in) of any male.

I currently have two, 8 week old, males in a 17L RUB ( exterior 18 7⁄8" x 15 3⁄8" x 8" and interior 15" x 12 1⁄4" x 6 11⁄16") who only have short disagreements, in the wee hours of the morning, as expected. They still sleep together, and drag everything for sleeping into the center under a cardboard dome. I transfer the sleep stuff when cleaning. One eats his food in there.

It did not work with these guys at 4.5 weeks with two saucer wheels, in a 64L (interior 24"L 14.5"W 11"D). Took those saucers out within the hour, then moved them to smaller quarters, when they kept trying to divide it up. They ceased squabbling and looked less stressed by that evening, in the 17L, thankfully. I have two cages with bedding and such, on either side, waiting for the night that they are not reasonably content with this arrangement, or start sleeping separately. This is also over six feet from any females.

I do not know the mice well, but their breeder kept the males together, for some months, regularly. With what looked like minor ear nicks being the worst result. She didn't use toys at all for the young males (I think there is a theme here); but did keep them in larger groups, and long pen type things. I'm hopeful peace will last until 12 weeks, at least. Usually they fall out badly before they start sleeping separate, but I don't know these mice that well, and that is what the breeder said they do when she knows it's time to separate them.


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## Blackframeworld

i would have to agree that splitting up your males is your best choice. If you do keep two males together its only a mater of time before animal nature kicks in. To be safe split them up or cull unwanted males. Also if you are keeping more than one buck, its because your keeping him for future breeding. And if you are breeding you should have more than one cage to house males in. These opinions expressed above are based on my experiences. Hope this was of some help. Also if you are going to cull make sure that you wont need that male in the future.


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## Seafolly

ThatCertainGlow said:


> Any male guarding a water bottle, was usually not going to work out as a buddy.


Wow! That's playing dirty! I do have a 100 gallon tank which I can put the two in when they're weaned but I'll be working hard to find a home for one as they grow. I can also attempt to fashion a divider of sorts just in case. Thank you so much for all those examples!


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## Skye_29

Skye_29 said:


> I've put a pair of males together since yesterday. There were a few squabbles, but I was up late and nothing serious happened. One male is 4 weeks and the other is 5, so they're still rather young, not sure how it will play out but I can separate if neacessary. The older guy wants to sniff and check over the younger but the younger squeaks and pushes him away, that's all I've witnessed so far.


It failed. Had to separate before anyone lost any limbs! Happily alone now, won't be trying it again.


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## Cait

I would always advise people not to keep bucks together as it is a risk. This is people who keep pets and/or may be not overly experienced with mice. I include novice breeders in that because they are invariably attached to their mice as individuals (I'm not saying this is wrong) and see them less as stock like seasoned breeders do. I'm not sure that came across how I meant it so I'll move on to my other point...

I have been breeding mice to show since 2002, and kept pet mice before that. I have had success in keeping bucks together in anything from pairs to double figures, but of course there have also been failures. My pet type mice were much more likely to fight than the show mice. Even so I remember a pair of brothers who lived out their whole lives together and really did seem to love each other's company. I now only have show mice. I put all weaned bucks together in similar aged groups to run on and can only remember one group that didn't work out in years and years of doing so. The size of the group depends on which mice are weaned - it could be two, or it could be up to six - unrelated and different varieties. They are still macho and don't have fertility issues. I didn't breed for this, it is natural and just more convenient for me. I know other breeders do the same, but not all of course.


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## Cait

I forgot to say, regarding the amount of space, I find that less space and a fairly bare cage brings more success. The presence of females in the room has little to no effect on whether the bucks get on in my experience.


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## Rodentman

MouseBreeder said:


> I forgot to say, regarding the amount of space, I find that less space and a fairly bare cage brings more success


That is so true.

I had a cage of brothers last year and they were fine in their smaller abode but then decided I would upgrade them to a bigger cage and then suddenly they started fighting to the point I had to split some up. Thankfully they didn't all fight as I still have 3 together now.

So now I don't bother with the large cages for bucks.


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## Seafolly

Yikes. X-nay on the 100 gallon then! I have a couple of extra hamster cages, it's just tanks I'm low on, so that's the only reason I'm considering it. Definitely a temporary thing.


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## Cait

Seafolly, if you have a pair only, they would be ok in an 18x12 inch or similar as just weaned bucks. If you then wanted to increase the size a little after a few weeks you could.


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## Rodentman

Seafolly said:


> Yikes. X-nay on the 100 gallon then! I have a couple of extra hamster cages, it's just tanks I'm low on, so that's the only reason I'm considering it. Definitely a temporary thing.


It might turn out differently for you though.

All mice are different and all experiences different


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## ThatCertainGlow

MouseBreeder said:


> I put all weaned bucks together in similar aged groups to run on and can only remember one group that didn't work out in years and years of doing so. The size of the group depends on which mice are weaned - it could be two, or it could be up to six - unrelated and different varieties. They are still macho and don't have fertility issues.


That is really good to know. (You do mean, over the age of 3-4 months, and after breeding, they still get along, right?) So I don't have to frown at any who end up enjoying another male's company longer than I would have expected. 

I definitely fall in the category of attached to the male mice, for sure. I doubt it would be well received in the US though, to view them as stock, and still want to keep them in any nice way (such as breeding them to a standard, and keeping them healthy), but I could be wrong. It certainly seems to be that way about all other 'livestock', although I have not ever understood it. I would want any animal I bred, for any reason, to be the best possible representative of it's kind, and kept in the best way that was at all reasonable (clean quarters, quality food, etc). (I hope that made sense, I'm half asleep.)


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## DaisyTailsMousery

I know what you guys mean about seeing them as stock. I love my mice each individually for different reasons, but I do see them as stock and know when I have to cull/sell. Being attached to every mouse isn't wrong but refusing to get rid of them when it's time leads to a bit of a hoarding situation.


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## Cait

ThatCertainGlow said:


> That is really good to know. (You do mean, over the age of 3-4 months, and after breeding, they still get along, right?)


I don't reintroduce them after breeding, no. By that point the numbers have been reduced and I won't have kept any bucks that didn't show promise for breeding. I have reintroduced some bucks in the past that got along (notably the 'fuzzy hairless' bucks always enjoyed company) but I simply can't observe multiple tanks of bucks every week after clean out to make sure they don't fight, so I don't reintroduce. There is also the risk that if a buck is good enough to show, that even a minor scuffle can destroy their potential, say a tiny nick in the ear or even a temporary cut on the tail, for example.


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