# first steps :)



## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

hi there 

In a few days I should get the first litter. (today could be day 17 if he impregnated her the first night, which he tried really hard :lol: :roll: )
The mother is one of my black tan girls, the dad is the chocolate tan buck.
So I'm expecting a litter of black tan bubs carrying chocolate. Since I don't know the pedigree of the parents, there's no way to tell if there will be other things popping up. This is so exciting!  
Momma has gained weight nicely the past days (today: 54g :shock: ), so I'm hoping for a nice fat litter. She already has her own "appartement" and seems to have settled in nicely. she's not skittish and takes treats out of my hands, so I think I can risk a little peek 2 or 3 days after the babys are born.
If there's a nice boy in it, he'll replace his father and I will mate him back to his mother to see what pops up and if the tan can be imporved.
I do not really want to use the dad again, since he hasn't looked his best lately. He has some sore spots near his ears (I noticed them when the doe was already pregnant...), despite having them treated for mites recently.
I don't want to buy the selamectin all the time, since it is quite costly. I would use the iver pour-on if I could get a hold of it, but in Austria you can't just buy meds online, you have to have a prescription, and i don't know any vets that would sell me cattle-stuff for my mice. But i'll keep searching.
since he doesn't seem to be uncomfortable (I rarely see him scratch) and doesn't lose weight I'll watch it for a little longer and then make a decision.
I had planned to put him with my longhaired girl next, but now I'm not sure if I should, or if I rather wait for a boy of the first litter to be ready. She is about 9 or 10 weeks now, so i have a few weeks left to decide what to do. I just really would like a litter off of her, since she's my only longaired, and I suspect she could be variegated. I compared her to pictures, and she looks like an (undermarked?) variegated to me.

Loads of beginner's insecurities, but I think I'm on a good path (or at least I hope I am  )


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Sound like you have a very sensible approach!
Best of luck with your litter, hope everything goes smoothly. We'd love to see pictures and hear of your progress as it comes


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

If you've already treated for mites, the sore patches the buck has may be from a diet that is too high in protein for him. If you alter his diet and give it a few weeks you may see a big improvement


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

thanks for your feedback  I'm glad I didn't make any big mistakes.

so I'll give him just grains for a week or two, and very little seeds like millet. 
I have barley, rye, oats and spelt. He also gets a teeny tiny bit of vitamin-paste for cats with omega 3&6 and zinc every few days.
would this combination be ok, or do you have better suggestions?


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

If you feed dog food, this is an easy way to overdo protein unintentionally. Does who are pregnant and raising litters don't usually have any problems, but the bucks don't have the same drain on the body's reserves. Just check the packaging on whatever foods you buy and try and keep his protein levels low for a few weeks. I hope it helps


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

the first litter is here 
She's a little early, but I didn't stress her or anything, so I assume it's not a premature birth.
I heard odd squeeking and risked a peek trough the bottom of the tub and saw at least 2 little pinkies 
I didn't open the tub of course, so I hope she doesn't feel disturbed. (but I will have to for feeding in the evening. without disturbing her nest, of course)
this morning I weight her and after that she took her piece of doog food out of my fingers as usual. Did'nt seem stressed or anything. (I have been weighing her in the mornings for the past week or so, she should be used to it)
It is just so exciting, since it's the first litter here  (hopefully not the last ^^)

the buck is on a dog food free diet from now on, with little seeds and more grain, I hoe it helps.

edit: another peek:








I see milk bellies, so I am full of hope


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Lovely milk bands! Congratulations on your first litter! I hope to have my first in a month and a half or so and I can't wait. I hope you post photos of their development!


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

due to the colours in the litter I tried to figure out the possible genetic code of the parents.
all of the darker bubs seem to be chocolate tan, the light ones probably PEW. I would have expected at least a few black tans, but I've probably taken them all out by chance before I could tell the colours.
This is what I came up with:

Doe: at/* B/b C/c D/D P/P
Buck: at/* b/b C/c D/D P/P

Could that be a possibility or did I make a gross mistake?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

If you have non-tan babies, both your tan parents must be at/a.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I see only tan babies (well, tan and PEW^^), but I removed half of the litter before I could tell colours properly. So I'm not sure abut this allel. I guess I would have to get another litter to prove that.

But the next one will be of this doe:
















Her belly looks a bit tan in some places, but that's only on the pictures, not in rl. Probably a reflection from the table.

this one could be interesting, too. Can fox be greyish?
















my other tan-girl (sister to the doe with the current litter) is much browner:









please excuse the fur, they have all had a spritz of frontline


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Your first photo does look tan in the pic, but it's hard to tell without belly photos. The second is definitely fox. Fox can be a variety of shades, though of course a stark white is desired. Darker top color generally means a darker tan, since blue and other dilutions hinder the good orange color. That last doe looks great, definitely C/C.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Ok, I will do a belly shot during the next cleaning. that's the big disadvantage of nice large cages with loads of corners  If they do not want to come out you have to remove everything from the cage or wait patiently until they sit in a box or sth ^^ 
It is really interesting, you can tell c-dilution due to the belly colour. I have to keep that in mind, it could be handy  At first, the fox-doe just looked like a really really poor tan to me, it didn't even occur to me to think about fox until I saw the pictures. It's easier to concentrate on the colours if the mouse is not moving all the time.

I might breed the fox doe first, since she's a little older than the longhaired one. I don't know how old exactly, but she doesn't look too old to me. 5 months probably, maybe 6.
Today is the next check and photoshoot for the buck to see if he has improved under the treatment. If he has, I might consider giving him company on the weekend  Then the first litter will be weaned and ready to go when she delivers 

At the moment it isn't so much about improving a variety for me, but getting to know which genes are present and getting a feeling for the whole thing (handling pregnant does, babies, sexing...).
In the end I will try to concentrate on 2 or 3 varieties (max), that go together well since space is limited. (but I might kick out the remaining 2 fishtanks in favour of the mice )
I'm really grateful for all your input!


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

I would disagree that one of those mice is a fox. I would say a poor tan. You can see how it's slightly brown at the line of color change. Poor tans can look creamy or greyish.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

hm, to prove if she is or isn't fox I would have to breed her and cross a son back to her, correct? 
could be a nice project.
I see, I need more tubs ^^


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Is that belly line brown? I just assumed the whole photo was warm (yellow-tinted) since the glass wasn't quite clear. Since you're getting pews, though, she could likely be C/c, giving you some belly dilution. Do the parents have bellies like the sister you posted, or more like the pale tan/fox?


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't know the parents, sorry. Pet shop 
the belly line might be the slightest shade of brown. If I remembere corectly that would make her tan, too. 
I'm still readig into genetics, therefore the stupid questions :lol:


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I think tan is correct.
It's funny somehow, because when I first startet reading into mice, I fell in Love with tans, but thought I wouldn't own one in the near future, since I haven't seen them before in real life, and now all my mice are tan by chance (I got a few of them by a friend and did not select them myself, the only non-tan-mouse is the one i pts because of the sneezing) ^^









and I still shink she might be variegated, I read the pattern on the head can be an indicator.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Whether she's variegated or piebald, the giant white marking on the belly explains the confusion! Indeed, she's a tan for sure, and not too shabby, once you can see that the white in the belly's not related. Also, she has a nicely fluffy coat for a doe. They always seem to have the longest hairs right behind their ears.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

So now she's been with the buck for two weeks and hasn't put on a single gram. The other doe was gaining nicely by day 10. I hope she has concieved, otherwise I will have to wait a few more weeks for the babybuck to be ready and try his luck... Normally a fortnight should be plenty for her to get pregnant, and the buck has proven he's a fertile breeder...

second problem:
I considered breeding this doe: http://www.dbsw.de/bilder/showcase/gall ... se_006.JPG
to her nephew once he's ready.
Now she seems a little down. slightly hunched back, but fur still clean and shiny, eyes clear, nose clean, but soft respiratory noises when you hold her right next to your ear...
I haven't separated her yet, but am weighing my options. i don't really want to, since I just put the youngsters in with them. Yesterday she didn't seem sick to me, but I probably was too nervous to notice.
I think I might give her a few days with extra vitamin-paste and see how she's developing.

If you have better suggestions/plans, please let me know!


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I was wondering about the genetics of my mice (again  )
Since the PEW seems to be a himalayan in reality, the genetic codes can't be what I first thought they were.

Guess for the doe was at/* B/b C/c D/D P/P
for the buck: at/* b/b C/c D/D P/P

but himalayan is a/a B/* ch/c D/* P/* (according to finnmouse)

so one of the parents has to carry ch and one c, and both have to be at/a. If I pair the himi-buck back to his mother, I should be able to produce more himalayans in any case, and probably even some siamese (ch/ch), correct? (I would LOVE some siamese)


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

If mum is the ch carrier, you'll get half full-color mice, a quarter himi, and a quarter siamese. You can cull out your black-eyed pinkies from the start, either way. If she's the c-carrier, though, you'll get pews instead of siamese, and you won't for sure be able to tell the difference between the himi and pew until 16 weeks at the latest.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

The marked doe is really beautiful! Is that the splashed pattern? (We don't see it in Australia so I'm not really familiar with it.) The soft mottled look is so pretty, especially with a long coat!


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

16weeks? the buck getting the points is 5weeks now. and i'm pretty sure it's points, not dirt.
but i try to be patient (and succeed most of the time), so waiting is the smallest problem. (he's 24g now, mom is around 35g, so he still needs to grow a little bit).
I'm just kicking myself for not keeping the 2 does. It would have made things a bit easier.
nonetheless, it's really enjoyable. I like figuring out stuff like that 

@MojoMouse:
thanks. I have no idea, which spotting-gene is involved. I'm thinking varigated due to the shape of the spots, but I have no proof. She just looks different to the longhaired piebalds I've seen so far.
I tried to breed her to my old chocolate tan buck (put them together on the 31.03., separated them on the 14.04., so I will have to wait until the 5th of may to be totally sure...), but so far she's not showing signs of pregnancy. 
Sadly, I have no idea, what my stock carries exactly, so it could take a few generations to figure everything out.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Depending on the base color, the quality of the mice, and whether they're lighter or darker, particularly with himis, it can take a while for points to fully develop. Usually, you can tell which are pew and which are pointed by 8 wks, but lighter base colors (rather than black), can come in later, and continue to develop until several molts after weaning.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I dared putting them with 1 female each yesterday. (they have 27g each, the females 30 and 34)








himi buck + his mother in their tub with loads of stuff in it (I know, sometimes I'm a bit sentimental ^^)
he doesn's photograph very well, but in the picture above, he really does look pointed, not just dirty *g*

















chocolate tan buck + longhaired spotted female
he sure is interested in her :lol:


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

The black tan female has already gained approx. 4g, so I think she's pregnant again. the longhaired female is still the same. I wonder if she's even fertile... 
it would be a shame, she's such a pretty one


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

He looks pointed to to me as well and cute too. What a loverly suprise for you.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

thanks 

I took a few shots of the does today:

















I still would like to breed her to the young choc tan, but she's making clucking sounds. Not all the time, and she seems fine otherwise. No weightloss, nothing. Coat seems nice, eyes clear, nose clean... I'm not sure, what to do. She has a the nicest tan of the lot, but obviously I don't want to breed a sick mouse.

















young doe 1, nice colour, sadly no tan 

















#2, all in all a nice mouse, tan could be better









#3, my favorite atm









Fatso, weighing impressive 50g without being pregnant. but still the boss of the group despite her first grey hairs.









and last but not least the little flea. Still not sure about the colour. (see my other thread)


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Heavily pregnant 
Day 17, 56g.
If she repeats her last litter, she'll have her bubs tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. I wonder how many are in there...
Last time: 58g, 14 pinkies.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

My girl I think will pop tomorrow too! High five!  Mine's 41g as of last night but looks fatter. (she's a small girl)


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

let's see whose pops first


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Hahahaha! Labour races, I love it! I just peeked and still just my fat lovely girl. Ack, I'm so nervous! This thread title is fitting as it's her (and my) first litter! She only gained 1 g yesterday so I do wonder...!

Edit: Roughly 3 hours later she gave birth!


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Mine is still fat. 58g this morning. 
How many bubs in your litter?


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Nice weight!  You can definitely tell mine's a pet store gal. She was gaining at least 2g a night if not more, so when she only gained one gram I should have known it would be today. First time error. 

I'm not quite sure. I was going with seven but now I'm leaning towards eight. The boys are already huge. -_- At least, the smaller ones look female to me. Sexing doesn't look as scary as I once thought! But culling will be worse than I expected. I forgot they'd be wiggling and lively. Rather than placid and less alive looking.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Still no babys  Weight this morning was 62g, she looks like she has swallowed a pingpong-ball XD

Her colleague is doing well, too, but she will need a few more days. I'm just glad she is finally pregnant.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

She's beautiful!

I took the hint when I weighed Tully...she was 40g on Tuesday night. She was 41g on Wednesday night. She typically gained at least 2g per day so I figured she'd give birth within 24 hours. So since you're weighing I guess keep an eye out for the drop.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

15!! I cannot believe it. And they are so tiny!
I culled 5 right away, and I hope, mom doesn't reduce further since I disturbed the nest (with her in the carrier of course)









the obvious runt (on the far left in the first picture)









comparison to a normal sized sibling:


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Happy birthday babies!!  They're so lovely and fat! But wow. 15 again! Seems like a magic number! This is quite the time of year - fourth litter I've heard about in the last 48 hours.  What are you hoping to see in this litter?


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Since the dad is pointet (looks like c/ch), I'm hoping for more points. preferably siamese, but I don't know if mom carries c or ch, so I cannot tell what I'll be getting.
But first she has to let them live despite me disturbing the nest. Last time she was ok with me and didn't eat any young, but you never know if they won't change their minds 

If her daughters have litters the same size as mom, I should offer them as "extremely fertile/ prolific" (not sure which of those is the correct term for mice) XD


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I have faith in her.  If Tully, the untested pet store mouse who still dislikes handling despite daily work, let me hand her the runt of the litter without comment or consequence, I have much more faith in them. 

I can't wait to see photos of them grow! Fortunately they grow fast.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

You'll know which mice are c-diluted immediately, as their eyes will be ruby/red/pink, not black. When breeding C/ch mice to ch/ch, you can immediately pick out the Siamese by culling the black-eyed babies.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Laigaie said:


> You'll know which mice are c-diluted immediately, as their eyes will be ruby/red/pink, not black. When breeding C/ch mice to ch/ch, you can immediately pick out the Siamese by culling the black-eyed babies.


Not helping the fact that I have to cull all my pink (?) eyed babies now leaving me with three black eyed girls. :lol:


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

The variegated girl would be getting close by now. She's such a beautiful mouse! Are you interested in specialising in this variety in your plans?


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm still in the process of finding out what I want ^^ The choc tans might end up as my "main" variety. But if theres a little space, I'd like to see what else I can do with the genes I have.
Not even sure she's variegated, but shes nonetheless really pretty. 
It's so sad, longhair is not appreciated in this country  they are such beauties. (sth about "deformed breed", "always eye problems", stuff like that)

to the current litter: Momma didn't cull any, but I picked out two more blackeyed babies this morning. Now she's left with 7 red eyed pinkies and 1 black eyed (I'd like another black tan, hopefully it is one ^^)
i might reduce them further if I see more runts, but atm it looks good and she coped very well with 7 the last time, so 8 shouldn't be a problem.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

they are developing nicely 
i hope, her daughters have inherited her mother-qualities. she's really good.

The longhaired doe had her litter today. She hasn't been outside yet, so I don't know how many. It is her first litter, so I think I'll wait until tomorrow evening to check them, just to let her settle in a bit. I hope she's a good mom, too.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Ahhh my heart melts. I'm glad you're having good luck with your mothers so far!


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I dared to look in te nest of the longhaired doe:









9 bubs, 1 of them red eyed. I hope she's a good mum and doesn't eat any after my intervention.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I just follow the same procedure each time. Put momma when she's already out eating into her carry case in another room, rub my hands with litter, make sure I don't have any perfumed soap smell on me, and try and make everything look as it was.  Tully is a bit fearful, but so far she's been very tolerant. Thus I imagine this method would work for most.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I use the same method. But you never know for sure beforehand if the mother will accept it. So far it looks good. I didn't count them again but I can see them trough the bottom of the tub and they have milkbands. So I am optimistic ^^









this is the blacktan x himalayan litter. Sadly 1 seems to be a runt despite belly full of milk. I'll wait 1 or 2 days and decide then what to do (I think it's a girl -.-). The other ones look perfect to me, especially the fat one in the middle.
Out of curiosity I'm doing a weight chart on the dark one (since it is the only one I can't confuse ^^).

picture from today:


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

black tan doe x himalayan male, 6 days old
If I sexed correctly: 2.6 

















longhaired marked doe x choc tan male, 4 days old
If sexed correctly 4.4 -.-








I cannot wait to see what colours they'll get.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

black tan x himi litter (the dark one died  )









the small, runty one:









marked longhair x choc tan litter:









one marked baby  but it's a boy -.-









I wonder how this will turn out









and, since it's just cute:


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Awww I was wondering how these guys were doing! So cute. And I love that marked one even if he is a boy.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

a few (ok, a lot ) pictures 

black tan x himi:








I think I will cull the runt. She only weighs 4,5g, her largest sister is around 8g









I missexed 1 female. Today I can see the nipples, and it looks like 1.6.
the one with the black dot is the buck, let's see, how long the mark lasts ^^









longhaired x choc tan








because she is so pretty 










there are at least 3 marked babies 
With this kind of markings, I'm really thinking variegated. they don't look like any pied baby of which I've seen pictures yet.
Of course the dad could carry a spotting gene I don't know of. I think I'll find out when I pair him up with his two sisters in a month time.

























not sure about this one. I imagine some spots on the left side, but it could be dirt.

















the dark ones all have bellies like that, so atm I'm thinking all tan


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Awww. I'd guess those are spots coming in on that second last shot. I hoped my RY girl had a faint dirt smudge but no.  And not only did that come in, but her bum turned yellow too.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

a few more pictures from the black tan x himi litter and a question ^^









I culled the runt, since it wasn't half as big as his siblings. The one with the black mark is the buck.
It is a little odd that 3 of them are more beige than white. Could this be the first sign of a siamese mouse?










so cute!


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

not dirt, spots  what colour might that be... she has fairly light eyes









and I thought right: tan ^^


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Two of the bubs look like they have wavy fur. Can I trust my eyes or are they fooling me? I have absolutely no experience with wavy fur whatsoever.









one of them next to a standard coat sibling. it just looks so different


























the second one


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

It looks like you have astrex


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

lol, ok. wherever THAT suddenly comes from ^^
Mother is longhaired without visible curls, dad is standard coat with two standard coat parents.
So it would have to be a recessive gene *think*
what are the odds :lol:


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Have you had mom since she was born? This is pretty mild curl, and it straightens out with age.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

No, I got her when she was approx 5 or 6 weeks old. This was her back then:


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

There are both recessive and dominant forms of astrex.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

I just love that doe! She has the most beautiful markings. What a surprise with the wavy bubs! They're adorable.  I didn't know you could get a recessive astrex gene - we only have the dominant one.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

I didn't know there was a recessive gene for astrex, either. So much to learn.

They are developing quite nicely imho
The curls are just lovely 
























for this one I'm thinking champagne (a/a b/b C/* D/* p/p, I don't think both parents carry d, so not "proper" champagne according to finnmouse)









those are doing well, too. 
3 are more beige and I think I can see the first hint of points. (could be wishful thinking, though ^^)


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

CURLS?! Oh what a fantastic surprise. They're all adorable.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Imagine my face when I first saw it :lol:


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I'd like that last one shipped asap please. ;D


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

still thinking siamese for the darker one and himi for the lighter ^^










the other litter

















choc tan, weird long guard hairs? (the other 3 look just like that)

fluffball: looks kinda longhaired, too

















champagne, I do so hope, she does not grow into her ears ^^









second fluffball


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

Gosh, they are so lovely!


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

the lovliest little fellow I've had so far. He's the sweetest of all the boys


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

He's growing into an extremely nice boy! I love his features - especially his eyes.  I also like the champagne doe you posted a few days ago with the big ears. How's she going?


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

thanks 
I wonder if I could pair him to his mother or sister. I know it'll produce around 25% homozygous variegated mice that'll die, but I have culled down every litter so far anyways... the advantage would be a certain percentage longhaired curly mice.
not sure yet if it would make a difference to my conscience.

all of the mice seem to be doing fine as I can tell. I'll have to get a few new pictures soon. (prolly this weekend)
the champagne is really light, I have a hard time telling it apart from the other litter.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Sorry I forgot about the pictures.

The champagne has really washed out, but I swear it is the same mouse 








this turned into this:








With a lot of imagination you can still see the spots ^^









the curly choc tan variegated female sleeping









the curly choc variegated boy


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