# What wins BIS in the UK?



## Jack Garcia

I was wondering what varieties usually win BIS in the UK? Is it PEW? I know that over here (the US), it depends because our shows are so small there may not be many PEWs entered. At the last show I went to, a splashed mouse actually won BIS.

I've heard that in the UK it's hard to compete with the big, showy PEWs. So do they usually win?


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## Cait

Selfs are probably the most common winner of BIS but not always PEW - creams, blacks and to a lesser extent champagnes and silvers get a look in too. The paler self coloured satins also do well. Black and chocolate tan occasionally get high honours as do siamese and a few other AOVs. It all depends on what is 'popular' and therefore more common and being worked on. Marked rarely win BIS or BOA, but it does happen.


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## Jack Garcia

Black wins? I would never have thought that. Over here, black is hard to breed to standard in terms of getting rid of yellow vent hairs, ears, etc., while at the same time maintaining type. Also, blacks seem to be smaller than all other varieties, which doesn't help on the show table...


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## Cait

Blacks here are smaller too but they are bred by quite a few people and have been rigourously selected so that a white toenail or the odd tan hair will mean they don't even place in a class. They seem to have remained popular throughout the time I have been showing (since 2002).


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## WillowDragon

Are the good show blacks over here extreme non agouti's Cait?

Willow xx


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## Cait

It's believed so, yes


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## WillowDragon

I need to get my beehind to a show soon, even though I can't show myself yet. I've always wanted to see an a(e) mouse in real life... I'm so used to the standard blacks that pop up in my outcross litters, though cute, are full of tan hairs! lol
I would love to have a look at some excellent show mice!

Willow xx


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## moustress

An extreme black mouse has to be seen to be believed. If you've never seen one it's almost possible to convey the estent of how black a mousie can be. Pictures can show it, but to hold one in your hand is a big 'wow'.


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## Cait

I always describe the best black I ever saw like looking into a black hole - so black it almost had no features visible!


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## Jack Garcia

I had a show breeder tell me once that the extreme blacks in the UK are also homozygous umbrous and that the extreme blacks in the US usually aren't. I don't know how true that statement is, but it would make sense as to why the UK show blacks are just a little bit darker than even the darkest US extreme blacks.


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## WillowDragon

Are show blacks mellow? Cos all my blacks... mental!! I handle them the same as all my other mice, my PEW's are mellow as anything, especially the males, but my blacks are just so hyper!! I figured the colour contributed to that.

Willow xx


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## SarahY

There'll be a dove self winning BIS show one day... 

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia




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## WillowDragon

I'm hoping that Lilacs are gonna get a look in at shows too in a few years! 

Willow xx


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## Jack Garcia

I think lilacs would be one of those varieties with good potential since they're so light.

Is the reason that varieties like agouti or brindle don't win often due to them being harder to breed to standard? I've bred both (American brindle) and I've found that it's a lot easier to breed PEWs to standard than agoutis or brindle.


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## Cait

Selfs in general are more consistent per litter; even if not all are winners, a higher proportion should be showable. Shades like lilac and dove are more open to interpretation than white or black, for example. They also have faults a white doesn't, for example a dove suffers from light nose and tail root when a PEW doesn't. Agoutis can and have won top honours btw


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## WillowDragon

The standards for Dove and Lilac are so vague, the ideal shade would vary according to different people and different judges I would imagine?

Willow xx


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## Jack Garcia

That makes me happy for agoutis!

My biggest problem with them is trying to improve type (specifically ear set and head shape) while keeping reasonably even ticking. It could be just that ones I'm working with, but it seems that as soon as I get the head shape going in the right direction, all the ticking is concentrated on the back! It's very frustrating. That, and pink toes!


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## Jack Garcia

WillowDragon said:


> The standards for Dove and Lilac are so vague, the ideal shade would vary according to different people and different judges I would imagine?
> 
> Willow xx


It varies in the US for sure. Champagne, too. I once heard a judge talking to somebody else about how champagne should be the color of...and I interrupted her and said, "champagne?" 

You can see how non-specific that is.


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## moustress

A fair number of show champagnes are actually pink eyed cream.


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## WillowDragon

Pink eyed Lilac yes, but I would say Pink Eyed Cream would be too light surely??

Apparently alot of Black Eyed Creams over here are chinchillated Lilacs too =o)

Willow xx


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## Jack Garcia

Yeah, mousetress is wrong on that one, at least for the US. Our show champagnes are either a/a b/b p/p or a/a b/b d/d p/p.

As you can see here: 
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/cream.html

...PE Cream is extraordinarily light.

The champagnes at shows (moustress, I thought you didn't go to shows?) should look more like the first mouse here: http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varie ... pagne.html

Although again, there is considerable variation between shades.


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## moustress

My meeces no longer go to shows. It's a waste of time and stressful for the little darlings.


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## Jack Garcia

Then how can you say what a "fair number" of show champagnes allegedly are? 

Most of the show mice I've met are bred to be so docile that nothing stresses them out. Only the wilder, petstore derived mice get overly excited by traveling.

BTW, they have a term for people who call dog shows "a waste of time," a term which works with the mouse world too.

That term is "sore loser."  (said with a friendly poke, of course)

You should come to shows more often. I'm sure with some hard work you could do very well!


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## moustress

You can't judge a book by it's cover or a mouse by it's coat for that matter.


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## Jack Garcia

And yet that's _exactly_ what we (well, they, as I'm not a judge) do!

And by things other than coat, too! :mrgreen:

You can actually tell a lot about a book by looking at it from the outside, though. When was it made? What is it made of? How big is it? Do the pages, binding, and flaps seem to be in the right place? Are any pages obviously loose or missing? Does it seem solidly constructed, overall? Will it hold up to daily use? Does it have any holes or any obvious flaws on its various parts? Is it smaller or larger than the other books present? What is the history of this type of book? You can pick it up and feel it and see how it "feels" in your hand. And you can give advice to the book maker on how to improve the next generation of books so that they will compare even better to the book standard, written by the national, local or regional book club that you belong to.


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## moustress

You can't tell by looking at a mouse what genetics are at work; or if you can you should call a press conference. Just about any type of color can be created in at least two different mixes of genes. How would you know the genetics of a mouse with red/pink eyes just by looking at it? You can't, clearly.

Furthermore, I thought I was wrong once but later on I found I was mistaken.


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## Jack Garcia

That's exactly why advanced knowledge of genetics is helpful but not necessary to breeding good show mice.

What is more important is a skilled eye that can distinguish minor type differences between mice, differences that pet owners or casual breeders might not see, and these differences are not necessarily inherited in the same simple way as coat color(s), as anybody who shows their mice can tell you! 

In fact, if you have a good objective eye for what makes a solid mouse overall, you could very well have *no* advanced knowledge of genetics and yet still do very well, with certain varieties.

And of course there are folks who are proud to have tons of genetics information stored in their heads but who consistently breed small, spindly, average-to-poor-looking mice with poor conformation, for generations and generations but don't even realize the low quality of what they're producing (or worse, react with hostility when a major flaw on one of their mice is pointed out to them). So in other words, it goes both ways.

If you have not already, you might read _Principles of Selective Inbreeding_, by W.A. Watmough. It deals with just this (among other things).

Here is one excerpt:



> In the pages that follow I shall write about inbreeding from the practical breeder's viewpoint, and not that of the geneticist. In these days when the scientific approach to almost everything in life is receiving so much attention and publicity, there is a danger of people thinking that unless they become amateur scientists they have but little chance of achieving success. And it may well be that the livestock lover may believe that unless he becomes thoroughly versed in Mendelism (the true story of the mechanics of inheritance) he cannot hope to breed high-class specimens with regularity.
> 
> I wish to disabuse his mind immediately, and to tell him that among the many successful breeders of different species of animals and birds with whom I am acquainted only a few have much knowledge of genetics. On the other hand, I have known but few scientists who have bred winning specimens however hard they have tried to do so by the application of Mendelian principles in an effort to improve type, size, color and markings, or in the case of racing stock to improve speed and stamina.
> 
> But because I have said this please do not jump to the conclusion that I am other than a staunch supporter of the Mendelians or that I deprecate their work in the slightest degree. They have done, and are doing, a wonderful job. They have enabled budgerigar fanciers, for example, to know just what colors to expect from given matings, thus saving us from the waste of good material which would otherwise occur. If the research work carried out by a series of eminent geneticists had not been accomplished, we should not know, as we do, the exact color expectation of the youngsters bred from any two budgerigars that may be mated together. And the same remarks apply to poultry, rabbits, mice etc, and to some extent to pigeons.


As I said above, it really does go both ways. Ideally, a mouse breeder with a good eye for confirmation (or who actively develops a good eye for confirmation, something I am constantly striving for) is also reasonably adept at genetics of the particular variety or varieties he is breeding.

Here is the link to the full text of Watmough's piece: http://web.archive.org/web/200710242009 ... gMenu.html


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## Cait

Champagnes are not PE cream here either (PE chocolate). A lot of PEWs are genetically PE cream though!


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## Jack Garcia

That would make sense.


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## SarahY

It's probably of no use to you, but here is a list of LSCMRC winners from 1965 to 1994:

http://www.miceandrats.com/winners.htm

I was suprised how many varieties are missing from the list...

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

Oh, that's fascinating. I see agouti (and cinnamon) appearing a lot more than I would have figured!


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## WillowDragon

Lots of Argente!


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## Jack Garcia

There is, isn't there?

Is it just me, or does ticking usually appear more even in argente than agouti? I have argente pop up all the time, and argentes usually seem more evenly colored, even in the same litter.


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