# Sable or Agouti?



## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

I just got some new mice nearly two weeks ago from a feeder breeder but I'm not sure about her colour. At first I though she is a sable but now I think perhaps that she might be just a poor agouti? 
Her top colour is dark brow and look ticked and her belly is yellowy cream colour like what's in a poor tan
(As far as I've seen, sable is quite rare in Thailand, where I live)






Just as a note: I know she might be pregnant before I got her as she's living with a male, so I'm not surprise that she's so big right now.
Thanks


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

I don't think she's sable. She does look agouti with a crazy high tan line, but what about an odd brindle? Her sides look like she's got some striping vs. the straight line of tans, and brindles can be really under marked, so maybe she's just really heavily over marked?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Do you have American brindle in Thailand?


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I was also thinking that this mouse looks like an american brindle. 
American brindles are also prone to obesity, so it would explain why she is a bit portly, too. 
If she does have a litter, you will know for sure. If there are striped babies, then you know she is brindle for sure.


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

Looks Brindle (american)


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm not quite sure if we have one here as I haven't seen any before, but it might be the case that most of them are under marked or over marked. I think I need to look for brindles in her litter of 7 (that just born this morning). 
If it turns out that there're no brindles, what could she be?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Your other options are agouti tan or sable, and the color of the babies should help us figure that out, too, though it's too bad we don't know what the father looked like.


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks^^ I need to wait for their colours to come in then.

The day that I got her, I remember that the only male in the box is a broken black and she would probably carried broken too. Most of their mice is broken black, but also some that are banded and self in argente, agouti, blue and dove.

Edit: The pattern of her pups just came up, and now I'm pretty sure that the father isn't just a broken black, but a broken banded black since 5 out of 7 pups are broken and the other two are banded.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

That's interesting. Is there any way you could post pictures?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I'd say either sooty yellow or brindle.


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

These are the picture of the pups, just in case it helps figuring out the colour of the mum. There are 5 does and 2 bucks in the litter. I haven't take the photo of the mum yet, but she looks the same as in the first picture anyway.

Doe1 - Broken Agouti 















Doe2 - Broken Agouti















Doe3 - Agouti Banded








Doe4 - Broken Agouti















Doe5 - Broken Agouti








Buck1 - Yellow? Banded His back is a bit darker than his side. He also look lighter in real life















Buck2 - Broken Yellow? He is a bit darker than his brother, the colour is light brown wich is darker on his back than his side. As far as I know, there are no chocolate in this line, and he doesn't look ticked to me so he couldn't be cinnamon.















All Does








All Bucks








All together


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Your 3rd doe has the best chance of not expressing pied (but they carry it) in addition to her banded, the yellow? male probably as well. Best way to test would be to breed to a self mouse and see if you get 50% banded. Your high whites could also be banded, but it could be covered be a lot of white spotting. How many were there in the original litter size? Were there any selves?

Here's a link to an article that covers banding: http://www.fancymice.info/whattolookforbanded.htm and here's an example of some from an earlier generation of mine, you can see a range in patterns even with out being *pied*.









Oops, made that a little big, fixed it. aaaand wrote the wrong word.


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

The whole litter survive and I didn't cull any pups, so 7 is the original litter size.


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

So all of the pups are now 5 weeks old. The lighter one (buck1) starts out looking very much like a yellow of some kind and then the undercoat turns dark grey and he gets darker and darker along his back (looks a lot like his mom, but a bit lighter). Another buck start as light brown and turns into the same colour as his mom and brother, but a lot darker. All of the does remain agouti.
They make me confuse now, no tans, no brindle(even an undermarked one) or Ay yellow. What could they be :?

I'll upload their picture as soon as possible

[If I choose to test breed the first buck, who should I breed to? Right now I have 2 black pied (one could also be banded), 2 argente self (one LH and might carries pied gene. another probably carried blue or chocolate), his mom and his sisters]


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

Anyone?


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Maybe give us updated pictures?


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

Sorry about the picture, it takes me so long to get some. Now here it is

The mom (I think she just moult her hair recently and turn a little yellower than normal)







































Buck 1 (he's only 1 and a half months old but start getting fat like his mom)

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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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Buck2 
























Their sisters
Doe1








Doe2








Doe3















Doe4








Doe5


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I think mom is probably Avy/A, a brindle, and some of her children are agouti and some brindle. The fact that the dad was most likely black, and you had no black babies tells me this. Brindles change color and shading through out their life, and some brindles can even look agouti.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Definatly some overmarked brindle to me. You can see striping on the back legs of some.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I am absolutely baffled and amazed that American brindle has made it to Thailand, but that is quite obviously the case! They're lovely, all around, and don't be too worried about the pudginess. It's virtually unavoidable.


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

Thank you so much for the reply! Woh, I was a bit *shock* and amaze that they're American brindles. No wonder why they're big and chubby. 
I don't know how they made it here, but the feeder I got then from seems to always have uncommon varieties popping up e.g. longhair: they're very hard to find here, I have only seen one in fur in my life, which is the one that I got(I believe she is one of the first 3 or so longhairs here). Pied are not that easy to find here. Also hairless

some of their hard-to-find mice


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Whoa, that hairless looks different then the ones I've seen floating around the boards.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

That is indeed definitely a different kind of hairless.


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Could it be a type of fuzzy? It looks like peach fuzz on it's back.


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

I don't know what kind of hairless she is, but pretty cute in my eyes ^^ 
The picture was taken around 8 month ago,I might ask the breeder about her when I got the chance, I hope she is doing well.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I have had 4 mice that look identical to the 'hairless' mouse you have there, and all 4 grew their hair back in normally after about a month. It could be a similar thing here. 

Edit- oh but you say that was 8 months ago, and she still looks the same?


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## We Love Mouse (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm not quite sure how's she looking right now, as he didn't post any picture of her lately. :? Hopefully she will keep that look and pass some down to her offspring. 
(He does keep a lot of mice for his snakes, but also focusing on breeding pied mice. Sadly he said he'll decrease the number of mice soon, leaving only some interesting ones because of the cost of keeping them. I really hope he choose keep hairless and longhair.)


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