# Local clubs? why yes or no?



## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I've tried to write this approximately ten times now with varying success. Hopefully it won't offend anyone and I'll be able to express what I mean clearly enough.

Some of you know that before I came to the mouse fancy, I bred finches for showing.
I was a long time member of a well organized and established club.
We had meetings monthly and shows twice a year.
My grandmother was the treasurer and a board member. I was very involved with planning and setting up the shows. I was one of the best breeders of Gouldian finches.
I learned to handfeed from older members and helped to raise endangered species. I eventually was able to help people who were newer to the hobby learn those same things.
It was one of the most fun and enriching things I have ever participated in. I made a ton of friends and regularly learned new things.
We were well connected with other branches from other states too, so we weren't isolated by state.
When I switched over to mice it was like being lost out to sea, and I've wondered why that is. Why should the mouse fancy be so ...isolated compared to that of the birds. If I am correct, fancy mice have been around way longer than the interest in birds. Mice are domesticated while the birds are still wild animals. Why do we not have organized local chapters and instead have a national club or two only? 
I have only met with my fellow breeders occasionally to exchange stock.

Is it because nobody has ever tried to organize local clubs?if that is why, I'd be more than willing to help set something up. And help people in other areas start chapters as well. 
I think it would be fun to have meetings for mice the way we did for birds.

It's just an idea that I've been rolling around in my head for a while. I was wondering what you guys think about trying to form local chapters in addition to talking on the forum like we do already.
And why it hasn't been done before I mean.

This importation of mice has reminded me how much I miss the community I had, so I thought I'd at least ask.


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## hlforumhl (Oct 2, 2011)

I agree...it is very hard to learn about the mouse fancy. I believe that it's just that no one has the time or desire to start and run local chapters. I know I, for one, being a college student, would not be able to dedicate much time to actually running an organization. It is a wonderful idea though...


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Me and a friend are looking into starting a club. It would be AFRMA affiliated and have 2 shows per year idealy. 
There is a lot of work that goes into it. And to be AFRMA affiliated you have to train in CA, and pay a yearly due, and report to them all of your show results, etc. . .

Would anyone be offended by a very small membership fee? Like $10 per person as a one time only fee that would strictly be used to pay the AFRMA affiliation dues, and show costs?

Hmm. . . just tossing around some ideas right now, but we're working on it none the less.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Here in the UK a year's NMC adult membership is £15. I think $10 is very reasonable.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

We actually contacted the NMC to see if it would be possible to become Affiliated with them. It would be cool to have a link to the other side of the pond like that!

I don't know what it would require, but I'd assume it would be something similar to the AFRMA affiliation. Who knows! Waiting to hear back from them. But if that doesn't turn out, we'll definitely be affiliating with AFRMA.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm not sure if you could be affiliated to the NMC. I think that would mean that your shows would count as open NMC shows... Which wouldn't work because you couldn't in any practical sense expect UK exhibitors to attend :shock: :lol:


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

That's what I was wondering about. . . :lol: 
But it would be cool to have some kind of connection


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## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

Rhasputin said:


> Me and a friend are looking into starting a club. It would be AFRMA affiliated and have 2 shows per year idealy.
> There is a lot of work that goes into it. And to be AFRMA affiliated you have to train in CA, and pay a yearly due, and report to them all of your show results, etc. . .
> 
> Would anyone be offended by a very small membership fee? Like $10 per person as a one time only fee that would strictly be used to pay the AFRMA affiliation dues, and show costs?
> ...


I really really like this idea. Being affiliated with an established exisiting club would add an element of stability to a club. I also think it would make the officers accountable, which would be nice since decisions would have to be made in accordance to their actual merit and not according to individual preference.

Would this mean this new club would adhere to their standard of perfection? If I'm not mistaken there are several differences in the afrma standard and the one used by the ecma.

I think dues are very important, how else does a club expect to be able to finance events. I think a one time only fee is unreasonable. I think annual dues are more fitting, as you would need a steady treasury to hold events, and while you can hope that enough profit is made from each show to pay for the next, it's always good to have a back up. It also provides a means to purchase other things a club may need, such as charter dues or a website, or whatever is needed.

Count me in if you need any help to get this started.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Thank you Cindy, we could probably use your help. 
By becoming an Affiliate, we would have to adhere to AFRMA's standards, attend a show and be trained by a judge in CA, and report our show results back to their comity. 

There is a section on their site about becoming an affiliate. They outline the must dos there.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I have been trying to organize people to join a midwest club for a while. The main problem is that i only hear from some interested parties every now and then..Ras where would you hold meetings, shows, etc?


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Hoping to have shows slightly to the west, and all along the east coast.
Unfortunately, the further west you go the more sparse the mousers get. We would ideally hold one west-ish show (like in pigeon Forge) and one east coast show a year.
Ideally, the east coast shows would alternate between northern, and southern.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

This would be fantastic and I would certainly be willing to pay a membership fee. I think 10 is a touch low and going with 40 or 50 (which perhaps could include being on a breeder list or linked website privalige) I am all for it! What fun!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm all for an officially AFRMA affiliated club  I think afree membership that would allow registering a prefix and for basic show entries, $10-15 per year for a "basic" membership (say one that just allows discounted rates on show entries and perhaps an official "web banner" or something to put on one's website as a member), and maybe $20-25 to have a membership that includes a breeder listing and slightly more discounted show entry rates is reasonable...I can tell you right now if it was $40-50 a year for membership I wouldn't do it and I think a rate that high would really limit membership.

Casey, keep in mind that the shows themselves are NOT the only costs involved in running an organization...it costs to keep up a website, and the shows themselves tend to have losts of charges along the way that you don't think of at first. I know jenny personally paid for most of the charges associated with ECMA shows herself...even with dues and show entries the shows rarely pay for themselves, if ever.

I would be more than happy to help with any artistic type stuff that needed to be done  (logos/banners/etc) ...and I'd help whenever else I could as well


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Yees. I'd have to come up with a more realistic figure later on, but I agree I think. $10 sounds too low, and $40-50 sounds too high.

Artistic help would be great, we'll need a logo! 
Right now we're working on a name. . . We're at American Mouse Exhibitioners Club (AMEC) right now, but it sounds too official to me, and I don't like the abreviation, it reminds me of AMEX (American Express) :lol:


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I just read the AFRMA affiliate stuff...personally I think its wierd that champions and such are not granted actual championships...they are "affiliate champions"....lol If the clubs are officially affiliated and have to pay to be affiliated and have to report results and everything, then why aren't the show results as official? What is the point of even being affiliated or calling themselves "American" if they do not fully cater to the entirety of America?...just my thoughts...lol

My opinion for a most successful club would be to not have one individual as a president with sole responsibility for decisions...the most successful organizations have a group as a board who make decisions as a group and board is voted on by the membership every year or two...this helps keep anyone from getting "drunk with power"...lol

At any rate...lol What about American Mouse Breeders & Exhibitors Ring "AMBER" ...super easy acronym! lol


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Yeah, I don't get why the champions aren't official, if we have to pay, either. lol


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

I love the idea of the teired memberships! Great idea, I would do that. I can also volunteer to do any artistic stuff needed. YOu can see my art style in my own avatar and siggie here!


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Great! 
Still working on a name. . .

I'll release more details as they come.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I was actually considering just starting a club that was independent from other clubs. Not like isolated, just something more specific and organized. Something that doesn't have to ...kiss butt to be recognized(jk)? If our members do right by their mice and the fancy as a whole and do have some interest, then it will earn it's own respect in a few years instead of piggybacking on another name.

I was thinking around 20$ for a individual membership( annual)
and 25$ for a household (also annual.)
That would allow other members to bring in family members to a meeting which would preferably be bimonthly or something with 2 shows a year.

I thought all clubs worked on the board structure @[email protected] 
I was with the Baltimore bird fanciers for YEARS.
I know how a well organized club runs. It wouldn't be that hard to set one up if there was enough interest. I think the issues come in with legal stuff. For instance I know the BBF is listed as "nonprofit" but they have to pay taxes or something to get the paperwork or whatever. I'm close friends with all the people there so I could always ask.

Just a side note-
I'm not sure how I feel about this thread at this point.
It is taking an different direction than I had intended.
The Idea I had was to have a smaller area, so members could actually get to some of the shows and meetings. To have them all over the place is exactly the same as what we have now. I was hoping to fill that niche, and help other people organize local clubs too. By local I mean a few close states. Not all up and down the whole country. That's what the other bigger clubs do. That's the reason why it is so hard to get involved with the fancy as it stands now.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I don't understand what you mean...there really aren't any clubs that encompass the whole country, only regional clubs. A club that only included a few states would be pointless because there just wouldn't be enough people to make it worthwhile. Even with shows encompassing the entire east coast we still generally have 10 people or less entering mice in any given show. A lot of smaller clubs have been started that just fizzle out after a year or two b/c there just isn't enough interest.

As far as a board structure, no, not all clubs are run that way. The ECMA is basically completely run by its president who makes every single decision....which is why people are interested in starting a new east coast club.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

That's so strange. The president thing I mean.
That seems like an obvious disaster waiting to happen to me, but then again
all club structures tend to have a few really cliquey types.

By entire country I mean the fact that if you want to go to a east coast club show...you could have to travel for hours and hours just for one meeting. And those meetings are literally all over the place.
That's fine and everything for shows every once in a while, but I know quite a few people who have fallen in love with mice and then looked around and decided it was too hard to get involved with the community. Going to an other club's shows is even harder, often involving cross country trips. Maybe I'm spoiled. The bird fanciers met in towson every month so it was like a 20 minute drive to get there. Thought it would be cool to do something similar with mice. If it's available, We might even be able to interest some people who hadn't even thought of taking up the hobby before.

One of the bigger problems with a smaller club that I have noticed is getting word out that it exists.
Also it's hard to stay interested if there isn't anything to do other than talk.

I really think in at least the central part of the east coast there is plenty of interest in mice as a whole, it's just a issue with connecting those people. Especially the ones who don't know about the forums.


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## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

I've actually thought a lot about this for a while. And it has always struck me as odd and ineffective the way the mouse clubs are set up and run.

Shadowrunner, my experiences in the rabbit and cavy fancy seem similar to yours with birds. There is one large national club responsible for making all the rules and regs of shows, for making the standard and updating it, for recogonizing new breeds/varieties, for licensing judges and registrars. But shows are put on by the small local clubs, most of which only cater to a couple counties within a state. The shows are sanctioned with the national club, and abide by their rules. Members pay dues, period, and everyone pays the same amount. Most of these clubs don't have websites. You don't have to be a registered rabbity in order to exhibit, and membership lists are only given to members. But the most important thing is that everyone actually knows one another, trusts one another.

I'd very much support a small local club. I think at this point a regional club is just too much with too few people involved. I'm not suggesting membership be limited based on zip code, but rather that the club serve just a couple states, have shows in just 2-3 states, but permit members from anywhere to join, and permit anyone[member or not] to attend/exhibit. I'd think the best course of action would be to start the club and establish regular events[shows or gatherings makes no difference to me]. Hold the events on the same weekend, at the same venue every every year. Hold 2-3 of these a year so that people can get together frequently and get to know one another. Holding them in the same place and at the same time would allow people to plan well in advance so that more people can attend. Hold meetings, if it's impractical to hold them independently hold one at each event, have actual elected officials, and have the meetings run properly so that the membership is actually involved in the workings of the club.

You need to have good working relationships within the membership for a club to work. I wouldn't worry so much about affiliations or which standard you'll follow, or even having trained judges to start. I'd worry about consistancy and participation. If after a few years you've got enough people, a good stable treasury and enough competition at the events, then I'd start to think about the official side of things, about becoming affiliated with a larger older club, adopting their standards, and getting a judge trained by them. But I wouldn't consider that the first step. You've got to start small.

I don't like the idea of tiered membership dues, or free memberships. It's too complicated, I think when starting out it's better to make things as simple as possible.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

The benefit to a free membership is that it makes it easy for the club to keep track of those involved, and gives those with casual interest a little incentive to participate and feel involved.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

That's exactly what I mean M137b.
I often have a solid idea in mind, but have trouble translating it to test form so it's clear.

In bird club we would have optional monthly meetings. For those who had memberships in other states and couldn't make a meeting, we would have a newsletter that went out on a mailing list. You could attend if you had a membership. Or you could bring someone with you as a guest. If a friend was interested in breeding finches like me, she would attend a few meetings and get comfortable with the community. Then she would get her own membership. We had a holiday meeting in December where we would have an attendance award, raffle and party games.

For the shows we had one in spring and one in fall. Anyone could attend or show so long as they passed the heath check and paid the showing/judge fee (it was like 2$ a bird). The show would also include tables for people to sell stuff like bird sculptures or home made breeding cages, or even Bulk food.The vendors paid a fee for their tables, and those accumulated judging/vendors fees paid for renting the hall and flying in judges. Sounds a ton more complicated than it is. lol.

Point being it would be cool to translate that into a mouse club. 
And still I think the way you put it is very close to what I had intended to say to begin with xD


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## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

Stina: 
The purpose of a club isn't to track those involved or interested in the fancy. Its to put on events and promote good relationships between those who are involved. People will track their own interest by attendance at events/meetings and by continued enrollment in the club. Giving the option of a free membership promotes what i'd call useless members, members who join without any intention of being involved or helping. A functional club is one who's membership participates. If someone is only passively interested, they can attend an event and/or meeting, be properly introduced to the membership and get to know everyone a bit, then decide if they actually want to be a member.

Shadowrunner, 
Exactly. Those are the things I think of when I think of a good club. Where the focus is not on policing the breeders but on providing events for the breeders to attend and compete at. Rabbit show entry fees are generally $4 an animal pre-entry. But most small local shows don't have many vendors, usually just one or two supply/equipment vendors may be in attendence but other than that it's just exhibitors. There are no limits on the number of animals entered or brought to sell, and there are no regulations on sales, exhibitors don't pay to rent a table or anything like that. The club makes money through entry fees, the raffle table, and the kitchen. And those profits are used to put on the next show.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I didn't say that the purpose of a club is to track those involved.....but I do think it can be beneficial to the club to do so. With a hobby like mouse showing/breeding there aren't many involved/interested to begin with and a free membership allows a way to keep track of those few who have some interest and keep them up to date with what is going on so they don't have to do that themselves.... I think it encourages people to become more involved when they can be a member without having to pay...even if the only benefit is the ability to show and say they are a member. It doesn't prevent or discourage anyone from becoming full, paying members.

I'm pretty sure the ECMA has never had a venue fully paid by just entry fees...not even close. Even with table fees the venue is not generally paid for. There just isn't as much interest in mouse showing/breedng as rabbits and I don't think you can necessarily base a mouse club off of clubs for animals that have a much higher interest rate. It's also harder to find a venue to allow mice.


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## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

You don't have to call them a member to include them in a mailing list to get a show catalog or to permit them entry to your event. And i disagree, free membership discourages paid memberships, if you can get it for free why would you pay at all.

And I still don't see the need to police breeders. Keep track of your members and leave everyone else alone. Your going to have fanciers who don't want to be involved in clubs, who just want to show up, show their stock, take their placings and go home. And there is nothing wrong with that.

As far as how many people are involved, I think there would be many more if some breeders got their egos and attitudes in check.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

m137b said:


> As far as how many people are involved, I think there would be many more if some breeders got their egos and attitudes in check.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

That's a hard concept for me to get.
I'm typically pretty much humble and quiet all the time.
I have confidence but I know not to get worked up over little things.
Lol so I guess ego wont be too hard for me to avoid.

You know, I was a guest for the longest time before I was old enough to make my own choice to join. I had my first finch at 8 but I wasn't breeding until I was 14. I went with my grandmother who was a board member/treasurer. But there is some level of confidence you get with paying for your membership that you don't get with a free one or a guest status. For people like me that's enough incentive to buy a membership but I know plenty of people who are content to coast along. So free memberships are a tough one. How do you balance interest with availability?


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I know you're talking about the US not the UK, but I can't see that there would be a huge difference so I hope you don't mind me contributing to this thread. I don't think free memberships are a good idea. If someone wants to make all the effort to breed and show, they're not going to forego the chance for a few dollars. Also, you risk getting the people who want to make money out of their animals by saying they're show line etc. They'd join for free so they could say they were a member of xyz club, use that membership to get mice from decent dedicated breeders and effectively sell them and/or their offspring on. Sad, but it has happened here even with paid membership.

The other thing is, if you can share a hall with a like-minded fancy, you can share the costs too. If rabbit shows are big there then great, because compared to rabbits mice take up no space at all and they'd probably have room to fit you in  Other options are rats, hamsters, gerbils, cavies... We have shows like that here every so often and it's nice to get to know people who breed other animals.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Perhaps...since so many of us posting here are from MD, PA, and VA we can start with just one get togeather. Bring a mouse or two and as a group discuss them and help each other to grow as a hobby, talk about what faults to fix and sure..even bring along extra stock to sell/trade. Just starting small. We can use time like that to discuss what everyone would be looking for in a regular club meeting. 
I agree that starting small and hosting our own events to extablished club standards is a great way to start. Then you can go to those national groups and say...hey we have 25 members active in our group and we would like to become affliliated with you.
That is how the AKC works (or used to work 10 years ago). Local AKC groups have to build a group and members BEFORE appling to join the AKC offically to have offical shows.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I wouldn't mind being in alliance with a bigger club but doesn't affiliation also mean thy have a sort of ... authority over a smaller club?
I'm not saying rules and regulations are a bad thing, I just don't know how free we would be to make our own choices. I have no experience with an arrangement like that because BBF was entirely independent. We were allies with many clubs and nonprofit sanctuaries, but we had our own board that voted on stuff like rules.

I think if people are going to bring mice to meetings in addition to shows, it should be a personal risk thing too. I never took my birds to meetings because the one time I did the poor little canary caught something from another member's bird. I wouldn't say don't bring them. I would just cation anyone to be very careful and not bring any into the room myself.

I think your right it might be a good idea to get a group of people together casually at first to get better acquainted before doing too much paperwork.


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