# Recessive red (recessive yellow) in Europe



## Jack Garcia

Recessive red (aka recessive yellow) is making its way through Europe now. Officially, it is in Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, and other places. Unofficially (I don't know if the folks want it known) it is in other countries, too.

This worries me a little bit because of what happened in the US. We used to have two varieties of red. We had the traditional, dominant red of Walter Maxey, and the more modern recessive red. Breeders crossed them, then soon lost the dominant red all together. Granted, dominant red was never very wide-spread to begin with, but now it rests in the hands of fewer than 5 people (I currently know of 3, myself included) because recessive red has become so commonplace.

Because dominant red is heterozygous and dominant, once it's gone, it's gone forever. That is to say, with only one exception (when it is covered by C-dilutes), when you no longer see it, it's lost. The opposite is true of recessive yellow: it's nearly impossible to get rid of!

In an animal with as short a breeding life as mice, it's easy to see how a variety can be entirely lost in the course of a year or two if it is replaced by another one. We've recently come so very close to losing pearl (another old variety), that the prevalence of recessive yellow does worry me a little.

While it's true that recessive yellow doesn't have the health problems associated with dominant red, I think we should hold on to red for the following reasons:

1) it is an original variety of Mr. Maxey and his cohorts, already around in 1895, and as such has historical value for us
2) it is the only top-A-locus red dominant in any animal species (that I know of, at least)
3) it was fundamental in establishing other varieties (such as fawn, sable, and even cream at one point)
4) it's pretty 

Especially for those who breed red or fawn: do you see yourself "switching" from dominant (Ay/*) to recessive (e/e) at any point in the future? What are your thoughts?


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## Roland

People who are not able to keep the dominant Ay* and the recessive e/e apart from each other, even when mixing them, have little knowledge about genetic basics and should not breed at all.

If you breed a dominant Red to an Recessive Red you do the following:
Ay/* E/E x A/* e/e and you get 50% Agoutis and 50% dominant reds in the F1. All are carriers for E/e. Continue breeding the Agoutis to improve the recessive reds, but cull all dominant reds from the F1.

That is all one needs to know. It makes no sense at all to continue with the F1 for breeding dominant reds, since recessive red is not able to improve dominant red, not the type and not the colour.
If you want to improve dominant reds, use the best Golden Agoutis /Cinnamonms and Chocolates you can find, and try to keep them setterv red, not yellow and not sooty.

Ay/* should not be breed, they are fat and prone to get cancer early in life. Recessive Reds can be as dark as dominant reds and should substitute the Ay/* all over the worls as soon as possible.

This is all one needs to know.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## Jack Garcia

Roland said:


> People who are not able to keep the dominant Ay* and the recessive e/e apart from each other, even when mixing them, have little knowledge about genetic basics and should not breed at all.


I agree with this, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who have little knowledge and ability and who breed anyway. You might be surprised at the number of mouse breeders who have no idea what they're doing!



Roland said:


> Ay/* should not be breed, they are fat and prone to get cancer early in life.


This is a value judgment which I do not accept at face-value, because it is based on acceptance of the notion of Qualzuchten, which I also do not accept, not in full at least.


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## SarahY

> Ay/* should not be breed, they are fat and prone to get cancer early in life. Recessive Reds can be as dark as dominant reds and should substitute the Ay/* all over the worls as soon as possible.


I think it'd be a terrible shame to lose the gorgeous bright red fatties to recessive red, and awful to lose the Ay gene altogether. Especially considering it is the oldest known colour mutation in the fancy. They had "black eyed yellows" recorded in China hundreds of years ago. My best friend breeds them and she has had no incidences of tumours in her dominant reds, in fact as far as I'm aware her dom reds are the healthiest mice in her shed!

Sarah xxx


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## tipex

sarah... it is question of genetic, you don't can breed it healty... it isn't possibel.. it shows only that you don't understand the molecular genetics...

And i think it is better to lose a old mutation..... as a unhealty mouse.. lg Tipex...


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## SarahY

It certainly is possible! I'm sorry you have only seen unhealthy, poorly bred specimens of dominant red, but here in the UK fancy they are just as healthy as any other mice and live just as long, despite their tendency to obesity. Selective breeding comes to the rescue once again.

The difference is, dom reds are a tricky variety that needs skill and understanding to breed successfully. All of the dom reds I've seen in this country have been gleaming, shiny, bright eyed examples of show mice. Obviously they don't know they're supposed to be genetically sickly :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## Roland

Dear Sarah

it is not a good argument, to say that there are healthy dominant reds. The argument reminds me a little bit to the excuses of heavy smokers, who tell us that smoking does not hurt health, because they know someone who is 86 years old and still smoking.
It is the mean rate of health problems, which should be considered.
There are many scientific publications about the health problems of Ay and Avy, which can not be ignored. Perhaps you do not believe me, but you should believe Jax:
"The Ay allele is also of interest because it often is associated with stimulation of normal body growth ( Heston and Vlahakis, 1961a), obesity (Dickerson and Gowen, 1946, 1947; Grüneberg, 1952), sterility ( M.C. Green, 1966a), and a diabetes-like syndrome ( Hummel et al., 1972). Moreover, this allele has been associated with an increased susceptibility to both spontaneous ( Heston and Deringer, 1947) and induced ( Heston, 1942) pulmonary tumors, to spontaneous hepatomas in males and spontaneous mammary tumors in females ( Heston and Vlahakis, 1961a), to induced skin tumors ( Vlahakis and Heston, 1963), and to spontaneous reticular neoplasms ( Deringer, 1970). 3 The fact that all of these pleiotropic effects are unique to Ay, or to animals of yellow phenotype, i.e., these effects are not associated with any of the nonyellow agouti series alleles, is undoubtedly significant both in terms of the structure of the locus and its mode of action."
So the healthy problems are directly connected to the mode of action of the Ay and it is not possible to separate the health and the colour in these mice. The diabetes is connected to the obesity and so on and on.

Of course this is no problem in studs, which breed mice as snake food or for shows only, since the number of old mice is low there. The reds get culled before they are old. As breeders we are responsible for the animals, which leave our studs to stay in childrens rooms as pets too, not only for the mice in our own stud. We should avoid kid's tears.

The beautiful colour of Ay is not connected to the Ay allele. Ay can be pale and ugly. The high amount of pheomelanines is the result of 100 years of selection of darkening factors. These factors are not connected to the Ay allele genetically, they are independent. Since Ay is lethal and no homocygotous Ay/Ay mouse exists, there are always some Golden Agoutis in the litters. They have the same amount of pheomelanins, but without the dilution of eumelanines of their Ay siblings.
It is possible to transfere these pheomelanine enhancing factors to recessive Reds. See the progress of my breeding programm after only 2 generations of breeding recessive reds into Golden Agoutis. The four mice in the pic are recessive reds, no 1 from the original US line, the others after breeding them to Golden Agoutis. The next generation will be even darker than the darkest mouse shown in the pic.

When there are two alleles which give the same phenotype, but one is healthy and the other is not, we should focus on the healthier variety.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


Some recessive red mice:
1 is similar to the original US import mice
2 is from crossing no 1 with GA and selfing the resulting F1 agoutis (linebreeding, no inbreeding)
3 is from crossing no 2 with GA and selfing the resulting F1 agoutis (linebreeding, no inbreeding)
4 is from crossing no 1 with GA and selfing the resulting F1 agoutis (linebreeding, no inbreeding), but Tan 
The next generation of recessive reds will be darker than no 3.










































************************************
Obesity, diabetes, and neoplasia in yellow AVY mice: ectopic expression of the agouti gene. 
The viable yellow AY mutation results in a mottled yellow mouse that is obese, slightly larger than its nonyellow sibs, and more susceptible to tumor formation in those tissues sensitized by the strain genome. The mutation exhibits variable expressivity resulting in a continuum of coat color phenotypes, from clear yellow to pseudoagouti. The mouse agouti protein is a paracrine signaling molecule that induces hair follicle melanocytes to switch from the synthesis of black pigment to yellow pigment. Molecular cloning studies indicate that the obesity and growth effects of the A mutation result from ectopic expression of the normal agouti gene product. This review seeks to summarize the current state of knowledge regarding the obesity, stimulation of somatic growth, and enhancement of tumor formation caused by the AVY mutation, and to interpret these pleiotropic effects in terms of the normal function of the agouti protein. 
Yen, T. et al., FASEBJ. 8: 479-488; 1994.
Sources: http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/reprint/8/8/479 (free Fulltext) 
Mittenberger et al., The Role of the agouti Gene in the Yellow Obese Syndrome, J. Nutr. 127: 1902S-1907S, 1997 http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/127/9/1902S (free Fulltext)
BULTMANN, S.J.; MICHAUD, E.J.; WOYCHIK, R.P.: Molecular characterization of the mouse agouti locus. Cell,71,1195-1204,1992: "...we found that the pleiotropic effects associated with the lethal yellow (Ay) mutation, which include pronounced obesity, diabetes, and the development of neoplasms, are accompanied by deregulated overexpression of the agouti gene in numerous tissues of the adult animal."
MOUSSA, N.M.; CLAYCOMBE, K.J.: The yellow mouse obesity syndrome and mechanisms of agouti-induced obesity. Obesity research,7(5),506-514,1999: "This syndrome is caused by ectopic expression of Agouti in multiple tissues."


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## tipex

> I'm sorry you have only seen unhealthy, poorly bred specimens of dominant red


no... but i understand what the Gen Ay make realy. It make not only the yellow coat color ...Lethal yellow (Ay) is a mutation at the mouse agouti locus in chromosome 2 that causes a number of dominant pleiotropic effects, including a completely yellow coat color, obesity, an insulin-resistant type II diabetic condition, and an increased propensity to develop a variety of spontaneous and induced tumors. Additionally, homozygosity for Ay results in preimplantation lethality, which terminates development by the blastocyst stage. The Ay mutation is the result of a deletion.

Lg Tipex


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## tipex

lol Roland you was fast Thank you


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## SarahY

I'm not saying I don't believe you and I do understand what you're saying to me, I'm just saying there are plenty of examples of healthy dom reds and you can't write the whole variety off as unhealthy. Breeding practises make a huge difference to this kind of variety.

Believe it or not I read quite a lot about mouse genomes and so forth and I understand it, it's just that with my own eyes I've seen healthy, happy dom reds. I have never seen a diabetic red or a red with tumours. I have seen reds resistant to respiratory infections that have wiped out a lot of other stock in the same shed.

I know the deep red doesn't come with the Ay gene by default, as with any variety there's variation. I have doves that are as pale as silvers and as dark as gunmetal grey, and I've seen pictures of pet type red mice (on here mostly) that are definitely yellow in colour. It's selective breeding, again.

I'm not expecting either of you to agree with me, but it is my opinion (taken from my own experience and not from something I've read on the internet) that it is unnecessary to drive the Ay gene into extinction just because something else is easier.

Sarah xxx


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## Roland

Hi Sarah,

I appreciate your good knowledge and experience very much, as you will probably know from our personal contacts and meeting in UK. Therefore it is such a pitty that you do not support our efforts to spread the healthier version of reds more widely within Europe. The US guys unfortunately do not have the pheomelanine enhancing factors (unless they got some from imports ;-))) , and would sit on their pale recessive yellows for ever, but we have many of the pheomelanine enhancing factors in our european studs here. 
The same is true for the at, btw. Have you seen the difference in belly colour of european and american Black Tans? 
There are fantastic colours in the US, but little pheomelanine enhancing factors.

It is definitely not easier to breed recessive reds, it is easier to breed a dominant allel, since you lose a generation if you have to cross carriers with each other, but it is worth to give them a try and to combine the nice colour and the better health.

Visit me and get some e/e (for free, of course) !








Best regards, Roland


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## Jack Garcia

Sarah and Roland, I want to thank you for having this conversation. This is the type of conversation I want to be held about (dominant) red, because it is VERY MUCH in danger of disappearing, slowly and un-noticed, as recessive red makes its way around Europe, like it has in America.

I hope for the variety's sake and for our history's sake that people hold onto it and keep breeding them well!

Roland, you're insistent that the molecular genetics are enough reason to stop breeding dominant red, but you're blind to your ethnocentrism regarding the concept of Qualzuchtvarianten, which is a cultural concept that Brits and Americans do not acknowledge the same way that Germans do (so much so that we have no need for a word for it in our language).

I'm glad we can all be mature and agree to disagree!


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## SarahY

> Visit me and get some e/e (for free, of course)


Awww that's very kind of you, Roland 

Just as a small side note, have you made e/e p/p fawns yet? I'm rather interested to see if the colour is comparable to the Ay/* p/p fawns.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

SarahY said:


> ...is unnecessary to drive the Ay gene into extinction just because something else is easier.


This is actually an excellent way to condense the issue into one line. Much more succinct than I could ever be. Thank you!


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## tipex

you see a recessiv Red littler... it is the same color of dominant red...










and here a fawn... ee pp











> ..is unnecessary to drive the Ay gene into extinction just because something else is easier.


The coat is the same...for looking it make no different... why you would breed with Ay? Ay/Ay is lethal.. so more point don't breed with it

Lg Tipex


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## Jack Garcia

Red breeders in the Netherlands breed Ay X Ay all the time. The litters have fewer babies, but they do a very good job.

I breed Ay X A/A b/b usually. That's why I keep cinnamon does around.


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## Roland

Jack Garcia said:


> SarahY said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...is unnecessary to drive the Ay gene into extinction just because something else is easier.
> 
> 
> 
> This is actually an excellent way to condense the issue into one line. Much more succinct than I could ever be. Thank you!
Click to expand...

It is unnecessary to breed an ill variety, if a healthier one has the same phenotype and is around...


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## tipex

jep roland :thanks


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## Jack Garcia

At the end of the day, it is _unnecessary_ to breed any variety of mice the way that we do. I think unnecessary is the wrong word. 

If you mean that it is _morally or ethically wrong_ to breed them, that's a somewhat common opinion to which you're absolutely entitled, but it is also a notion which I reject because I reject the underlying premise that any one person (you) has a legal or moral right to tell another person (me, or others) what to do with their own property--from a legal standpoint, livestock is property.

The philosophical issue here is not whether or not the mice suffer: it is whether or not one person can dictate what another does with his property.

I have dominant reds available in central Kentucky for people who want to breed them for their own sake or for improving other varieties. Most people who've taken them so far are using them to improve other varieties (tan, RY, and splashed).

If it was good enough for Walter Maxey, it's good enough for me.


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## tipex

so interessting... so different morally or ethically

in Switzerland why don't breed with long hair or with Rex or hairless...ect.. it is a Question of moral.... it is normal... in our Country

animals have rights...http://www.bvet.admin.ch/tsp/index.html?lang=de

think it is a different you don't can chance it LG Tipex


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## Jack Garcia

Yes, that's a BIG difference between the English-speaking world (who usually have systems based on English common law) and other forms of European law. It's a difference that most German-speakers and most English-speakers never realize or acknowledge, and so they argue in circles instead of getting to the root of the matter!

Many societies which use English common law (such as the USA) reject most, but not all, rights given to animals preferring instead to base our legal systems on an emphasis of the rights of mankind. It is understood that animals should be treated kindly, and in some cases (such as with dogs) it is even legislated. But humans are *always* given a higher priority in all legal and moral matters. When the issue comes down to property rights and animal rights, property rights, which are distinctly human rights--a dog cannot own a house and a mouse cannot own a field--win.

Even though we contend that not all reds suffer, and that red needs to be saved, what you hear is "I don't care about the suffering of animals!" and what we hear is "I have a right to tell you what to do with your own property!" This is a difference that I don't think will be resolved, but it needs to be acknowledged before red disappears!


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## tipex

perfekt explain Jack


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## Malene

tipex said:


> in Switzerland why don't breed with long hair or with Rex...


Sorry about going OT, but what's wrong with long hair and rex?


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## Rhasputin

I think the problems they see, is with the whiskers, and with the coats getting tangled and dirty.

The whiskers are their biggest concern, I believe. Since it is modifying a part of the mouse that it uses to sense the world around it.

Am I correct?


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## tipex

Yes Rhasputin Kiss to you.....

Look this...

http://www.farbmaus-rassezucht.de/farbmaeuse/allgemeines/qualzucht/qualzuchten_bei_der_farbmaus.htm

but for me is no problem that other breeder have this mice.... but we don't breed that... the whiskers are very importen for the mice... it make not healtyproblem like diabetes.... ...

lg tipex


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## tipex

lol so it is 24:00 i go to bed it raining like cats and dogs her in Lucern... poor weekend

Virginia have you sunshine?

lg tipex


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## Rhasputin

Sunny and warm here! Have a good rest!

I'd like some rain. It is so dry today. :?


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## tipex

dry...i love dry.... and sun.... i life in the wrong country... LG Tipex


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## Malene

Rhasputin > Oh yeah, the whiskers. I didn't even think of that!

tipex > Although I had german for three years at school, I understand very little of it, and I didn't find Google Translate very helpful. All I understood was that they have problems with their eyes and are more prone to getting parasites?
Can you show me some scientific studies about that, or just something in english?

And again.. Sorry about going OT, but I'm curious and want to learn 

BTW, it's raining here too. Stupid weather!


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## Rhasputin

Malene, if you download Google chrome browser, it will translate the page automatically, and it does a very good job. 

Here is some of the info from the site about rexes and angoras:

Restriction of touch by touch and deformed whiskers (thin, wavy, curly, curved thick)
increased susceptibility to disease in many tribes, and frequent occurrence of death still a puppy or up to the completion of the first six months of life
the skin is thinner overall than normal, especially in the area of the neck
Mice of these coat variations often suffer permanent eye inflammation due to the long and straight whiskers in the visual field and also curved eyelashes
because of the abnormality of the dermal papilla, the abnormal hair growth is responsible for the caused skin irritation, so many animals a persistent itching torment
Moreover, these mice are more susceptible to skin variants parasites

The differences in culture, is very apparent with 'suffering breeds'.


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## moustress

I've noticed problems with the eyes and ears on many of my 'accidental' curly meeces, and wondered if that was a typical problem or just a problem with the ones born in my mousery. I guess it's good to know that it's considered a problem in general. I hate seeing the eyes all irritated looking. I had asked in another thread why my long haired curly that showd up in a tri litter didn't have curly whiskers. It never occurred to me that curly whiskers would affect the meeces sensory input.


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## Rhasputin

I can't ask my mice, but the curly ones seem to get along fine with their whiskers curled. It's probably because they grow up with them, and are used to using the oddly shaped whiskers to feel around.

I have seen on some of my rexes, the eye irritations, but interestingly, never on my texels. This is very interesting. I wonder if it had to do with the length at which the hair curls?


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## tipex

> I had asked in another thread why my long haired curly that showd up in a tri litter didn't have curly whiskers.


have you a pic from this litter?... It is interessting that long haired curly didn't have curly whiskers.



> It's probably because they grow up with them, and are used to using the oddly shaped whiskers to feel around.


Yes it is like a blind person... they also learn to go around.... but are they happy?

I think the mice have so so many wunderfull color... you can work so many to breed it better... so i don't need the other coats.... I have healty mice an you can see that... and the owners are also happy with mice how life long and have no problems... lg tipex


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## CatWoman

tipex said:


> Yes it is like a blind person... they also learn to go around.... but are they happy?


My sister is certainly happy.

Y'know.. I'm really hoping there's a language barrier at play in that statement, because assuming a blind person is unhappy just because they can't see is a pretty ignorant assumption.


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## tipex

> a blind person is unhappy


yes it is a language barrier... i mean when your sister can choose to be blind or not... what does she choose?... For a mouse is the whiskers the same the for us the eyes is... and when you have the option... i think it is better to see... LG Tipex


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## Seawatch Stud

This is silly and off the point. If it continues in this manner this thread will be closed.


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## Rhasputin

Seawatch, it really isn't off point. 

What Tipex is trying to say is, that the mice don't have a choice in the matter. We are forcing them to be 'blind' in a sense.

She isn't saying that blind people are all un-happy. Just that, if given the choice, they would likely rather be able to see, that not to.
This is relevant to the mice, because they do not have a choice, but we do, even knowing this we still breed them towards this 'deformity'.

It's a concept that the US and UK breeders do not fully understand, but it isn't being rude, or nasty, or innapropriate at all. I think this topic is quite civil.  
I'm very glad we can have conversations like this, and I greatly hope you do not feel the need to close this thread, since I see no harsh words or attacks in here. 

Just civil disagreements.


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## The Village Mousery

lol it is off topic this is a thread about red genetics not coat types! make a second topic for the coat types.


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## Rhasputin

It all fits here. The main discussion is about suffering breeds here.


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## WNTMousery

moustress said:


> I've noticed problems with the eyes and ears on many of my 'accidental' curly meeces, and wondered if that was a typical problem or just a problem with the ones born in my mousery. I guess it's good to know that it's considered a problem in general. I hate seeing the eyes all irritated looking. I had asked in another thread why my long haired curly that showd up in a tri litter didn't have curly whiskers. It never occurred to me that curly whiskers would affect the meeces sensory input.


I do not think it is an issue in well-bred curly-coated varieties. I have had Rex and Fuzzy in my mousery for a many years and not once had any itching or eye problems in those varieties.

The only eye problems I've seen are out of true hairless mice.


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## The Village Mousery

lol no its isnt the post is about red mice and if more shood be done to stop the dominant type going extinct nothing about suffering mice at all the topic got changed to that by other posters


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## WNTMousery

Also, I think Jack would be the one to say whether or not this is still on topic, seeing that he is the one who started the topic in the first place.


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## Rhasputin

Jenny, I agree. Breeding does have a lot to do with it.
Of course, I know Tipex will argue that a large number have the problems, so it is bad. 

My texels do not suffer from eye problems. But their grandparents, who are very short coated rexes, do have those 'rings' around their eyes.

I also agree that Jack should should be the one to say whether it's on topic or not!


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## The Village Mousery

If that was the case there would be no need for mod's would there!


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## Rhasputin

This topic is about suffering breeds. Part of the reason that the Ay gene is going extinct, is because it is supposedly easier to breed healthy mice using recessive yellow genes.
And since we were talking about it, the topic of suffering breeds came up, completely on topic.

I do think, however, that recessive yellows have a lot of problems with obesity, just as dominant reds do. I'm not sure if they have a higher risk for tumors though?


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## WillowDragon

Oh Lordy's sake... don't get me wrong, there are some varieties I won't breed (MoBr, Varigated) because of real health issues, but the fact that you a blanketing all the Ay mice in the world as a 'Suffering Breed' is quite annoying actually.

There are people in this country that have been truely dedicated to breed real healthy red and fawn Ay mice, and there are some robust and beautiful specimens out there.

And if we are going to get 'Moral' about it people... we wouldn't breed animals at all. We are forcing living things to mate and produce young, that in itself is morally wrong!!

Please don't use Morality as an arguement!

W xx


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## Rhasputin

Willow, it is simply a matter of culture. 

Tipex is from a culture, where this is the normal standard for breeding. It isn't that she's on a high horse necessarily.
I understand it, but don't go to the lengths that she does, to uphold it.

Everyone had their limits on how far they'll go with breeding, and her limit just happens to be pretty low on the scale. Like you said, you won't breed certain varieties, just like Tipex won't breed certain ones. 

Some people here won't even breed hairless mice because of health problems.


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## WillowDragon

I know Rhasp, and I put it slightly worng, changed my post a bit.

I don't have a problem with people not wanting to breed certain varieties... but I don't think preaching on how its morally wrong is the right way to go about it.

W xx


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## Rhasputin




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## tipex

Thanks Rhasputin... you understand what i will say...

Willow Dragon what is the problem from Varigated? I breed it 4 Years... and i have studie a lot of Molecular Genetic... about it... you must only look that you have a lot of melain.. and than it is no problem.... I breed only W/w with w/w...but when you send me a link from a studie... i am very interessting... to learn more....



> breed real healthy red and fawn Ay mice,


That is only correct when they have a mg... gen...(Mahagonie gen) this is the only way to make it healty... but how knows...how are the mg/mg is? So many many Ay have no mg/mg.. and they have so many problems! But you are the Breeder... I am not a judge ..I just want to clarify ... the choise you have

lg Tipex


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## Jack Garcia

I personally don't mind for discussion of reds to veer into Qualzuchtvarianten or blindness in people, but it's not for me to say if it's still on topic--I'm not a moderator. 



Artuntaure said:


> lol no its isnt the post is about red mice and if more shood be done to stop the dominant type going extinct nothing about suffering mice at all the topic got changed to that by other posters


This is accurate. My concern is that red (Ay/*) will disappear in the UK and Europe like it nearly has in the US. In the US, this was a relatively slow and gradual process and nobody realized it had happened until nearly all the reds were gone! At the same time, it can be much faster than you might think (a couple years) because once reds are gone, they're gone. I see this happening already in German-speaking Europe, and I'm afraid that this will happen in the UK in particular because that's our "ancestral homeland" as it were. Hehe...

I think that one tautological mistake that many people are making is that of conflation between animals and humans. In other words, people are taking qualities relevant to humans (such as happiness and legal rights) and trying to apply them directly and matter-of-factly to animals, and that incites people's emotional responses, quite rightly. But hopefully none of us keeps humans in cages and breed them for the color of their fur and make all their life decisions for them. That which applies to humans need not necessarily apply to animals. The more concrete the concept (food, bodies, reproduction), the more similar we are. The more abstract the concepts (legal rights, morality, even suffering), the less and less it applies to the lives of animals the same way it does to people. I'm not saying we all should go torture animals. I'm saying we must acknowledge that animals are different from people.


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## SarahC

Especially for those who breed red or fawn: do you see yourself "switching" from dominant (Ay/*) to recessive (e/e) at any point in the future? What are your thoughts?[/quote

I'm happy with what I have got and won't be changing.I did a lot of winning with this mouse,including the Bradford Champs.I'm not greatly interested in genetics,it doesn't necessarily = winners which is what I am interested in


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## SarahC

Rolan
Of course this is no problem in studs said:


> No interest in supplying mice as pets either,there are plenty of pet breeders to do that and who enjoy supplying mice in a kaliedoscope of colours.


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## Jack Garcia

I can see why you won with that mouse! I'm jealous!!


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## SarahC

Jack Garcia said:


> I can see why you won with that mouse! I'm jealous!!


deceased now but I did keep him for his entire life and he enjoyed good health to the end.


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## Rhasputin

That hairless mouse is also beautiful Sarah, wow!
Did he experience any skin, or eye problems?


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## SarahC

Rhasputin said:


> That hairless mouse is also beautiful Sarah, wow!
> Did he experience any skin, or eye problems?


the ones with eye problems are evident at an early age and I am scrupulous about culling them.I don't think it can be entirely eliminated.Those that don't show it have normal eyes all of their life .Varieties like this remind me of things like bulldogs and persian cats.With dedicated keepers life quality can be good but they have 'special' needs and there is scope for suffering.I wouldn't recommend hairless breeding to anyone who finds culling a problem and would only pass them on to people with a real passion for them.


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## SarahC

they never have skin problems.


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## Rhasputin

Sounds good to me.


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## Mymouse

Jack Garcia said:


> I think that one tautological mistake that many people are making is that of conflation between animals and humans. In other words, people are taking qualities relevant to humans (such as happiness and legal rights) and trying to apply them directly and matter-of-factly to animals, and that incites people's emotional responses, quite rightly. But hopefully none of us keeps humans in cages and breed them for the color of their fur and make all their life decisions for them. That which applies to humans need not necessarily apply to animals. The more concrete the concept (food, bodies, reproduction), the more similar we are. The more abstract the concepts (legal rights, morality, even suffering), the less and less it applies to the lives of animals the same way it does to people. I'm not saying we all should go torture animals. I'm saying we must acknowledge that animals are different from people.


Agree!

I think the orginal red should not be lost just because another colour is easier and overall healtier. To let some thing be lost that people hve worked on producing for years or decades (in the old days).....is no respect for the work they have done. I may be a newbie in mice breeding but I know dog breeding pretty well and losing a colour in any breed, an old colour, because it´s not popular, difficult or for some other reason would be sad and not right....and often impossible to get back once it´s gone (in this case not at all possible)....and then in the future (many of) you will regret it. 
that´s my bit :mrgreen:


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## neurozool

Honestly, I think morality can only be brought into the conversation when talking about how you raise/keep animals, and the reason you breed them. If you breed lethal varieties to see them suffer, then you shouldn't. If you do it to create a healthier animal, then good for you! Keep at it! If you do that but keep them in cramped dirty cages with no food and dirty water, then never mind- you shouldn't have them at all. And really if we are going to be so very strict about animal breeding, then we are right back to the days of Eugenics.


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## Rhasputin

Animal breeding is -all- about eugenics. Breeding, and culling to get to a 'greater' goal.


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## CatWoman

It only takes a brief look at history to realize that humans have absolutely no business making decisions that result in the permanent loss of biodiversity. The human race is far too destructive and our reasoning is most often informed by fear and ignorance.


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## tipex

the reason I breed them, is to create a healthier mouse... only for this... I have one how is 2 years old. I have very few tumors, Myco...

I keep the mice in big cages... with vegetables, hazelnut branches, wooden house, ect, straw and hay.

we have build our own food for the mice ..

















Look a pet home from a owner...








or this pretty wood home...















. Many may think we are exaggerating .... but that's normal here in Switzerland. The handling with the animals is different here.

LG Tipex


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## tipex

And the ee can be also so beauty an very very red ...like this.. one...










No difference .. LG tipex


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## Jack Garcia

neurozool said:


> If you breed lethal varieties to see them suffer, then you shouldn't.


By what right do you say this? (I ask seriously.) I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure.

Laboratories breed animals to study pain reception all the time ("to see them suffer" in more anthropomorphic terms).

Eugenics is, by definition, about humans. You've made the common mistake I pointed out earlier: conflation. You're applying a human situation (Nazi Germany and the period of human events that led up to it) to an animal's situation.


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## Roland

Jack, sure, these tiny feet are yours, you can do with them and to them whatever you want and nobody has the right to say stop it. 
You can breed blind and crippled mice if you want. You can breed any kind of suffering mice and you can even cut off their tails and eat them for breakfast, if you want.

This is really not the question. The questions is: Do you want to do it?
Some people do not.

The choices we make, not the chances we take, determine our destiny.

All the best to you, dear friend, 
Roland


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## Jack Garcia

Roland said:


> Jack, sure, these tiny feet are yours, you can do with them and to them whatever you want and nobody has the right to say stop it.


Thanks. I think this is the primary issue here, but not the only issue. And I appreciate this concession.



Roland said:


> You can breed blind and crippled mice if you want. You can breed any kind of suffering mice and you can even cut off their tails and eat them for breakfast, if you want.


Enter the secondary issue! Hehe! I don't think anyone who breeds rex, angora, or red mice would categorize them as "blind and crippled." Maybe I am wrong, and anybody who does breed these varieties can speak up and say so if this is how they feel. And even though I _do_ cut their tails off and eat them for breakfast, I much prefer to eat them for dinner.

(_That was a joke!_)



> This is really not the question. The questions is: Do you want to do it?


I reject the question due to the definition of "it." In other words, that question cannot be answered honestly because it is loaded and what "it" is, is perceived very differently by the person asking and the person answering. In both instances, our cultural beliefs and values very heavily influence our response.



> Some people do not.


I don't think anybody here would _force_ another person to breed a variety they didn't want to. But it doesn't go both ways. It seems some folks _would_ try to force other people to stop breeding a variety they didn't personally approve of.



> All the best to you, dear friend,
> Roland


You too! :love1


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## WillowDragon

Personally I don't see Reds (Ay) as a suffering breed... but maybe I have been lucky in the past and only seen and owned the healthy ones?

Tipex... I know you only breed Varigated to Self, and good for you, but I have known breeders (One in particular springs to mind) that breed varigated to varigated and then let 'nature' take its course on the poor W/W babies.
I also feel this way about MoBr (Though you wouldn't know it, because I don't preach about the morals of people breeding that variety) because you are breeding essentially with the fact that in possibly every litter there will be a male MoBr baby that will suffer and die.

Don't get me wrong, I think both Lethal White and MoBr mice are beautiful, and I will say so if people post pictures... but these are varieties I will never breed. This is MY personal choice, and I don't push people to make that choice also.

Manx is also a variety I wouldn't breed, but as to how I feel about it, I am undecided.

Bring in recessive red for the pet keepers, but lets face it, I don't think show breeders are going to be so quick to switch, because the mice are there to conform to a standard and win shows, and most of the pictures I have seen of recessive red just don't match the deep lustrous colour that red is required to be.
Also comparing Ay reds to breeding mice that are crippled is a bit silly... most show breeders breed fo thier lines to be healthier not worse off.

W xx


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## Rhasputin

I would never breed earless mice. . . they're so ugly, and just look like they are burn victims. :? 
I can't see any aesthetically pleasing aspects of earless. :|


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## Jack Garcia

I would never breed any ugly mice if I could help it, and that includes almost all petstore mice (in my humble estimation). But I have no place to tell other people "You can't breed them! Shame on you!" lol In fact, I think people who breed petstore mice add a richness and diverse perspective that we otherwise wouldn't have. Just because I personally wouldn't do it anymore, doesn't mean I don't want other people to.

As a side-note, I read once that the earless gene was not an actual gene (technically an allele) but rather a kind of virus that attacked a certain gene, and that's why it is passed on weird, in a non-Mendelian fashion. I forgot where I read it though. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Jax because I've searched there pretty thoroughly and haven't found it. I didn't save it because at the time I didn't realize we had it in the fancy. There are (or were) folks in San Diego breeding earless.


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## Rhasputin

Yeah, I've heard of that being true for several 'genes'.

My super ugly half bald fuzzies are pretty, well. . . ugly. But they are some of my healthiest mice (oddly) do well nursing (their babies have ROLLS!), make very nice crosses, and are just neat, and original to have around. 

I think there are certain places where I would draw the line, and tell someone (well I wouldn't track them down and tell them. But if it were a post on here, for example) that I think it is wrong to breed the animals. There was a person on here recently, whose mice in certain litters all lost their front limbs. I think that if this were appealing to the person, and they continued to breed and post, I would be upset by it, and probably speak my mind.
Not like me saying 'NO DON'T DO THAT' would stop them, or could stop them.

I'm not getting this accross well in text. I feel like I'm typing in circles, and not getting my point across like I'd like to. :lol:


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## Jack Garcia

I just remembered that there are varieties of hamsters without eyes. I bet those are considered "suffering breeds" in Germany, aren't they?


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## Rhasputin

Those are terrifying. They often are born with no teeth, too, and die or starvation. ):


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## Jack Garcia

I saw some at Pet Supermarket in Lexington. They were all white and didn't seem to have trouble getting around. I hate hamsters anyway. I don't think anybody should breed them for any reason, ever!  :lol:


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## tipex

I think the big problem is... so many breeder have no idea about the genetic... from the mice...they do not understand the correlation of the proteins... They see a nice color and make litter... no interessting to learn any thing about genetic... Then when you know a lot about genetic...... you understand it is a pointmutation in the DNA! . and you don't can breed healty...the information to produce a protein is cancel.. delete....

Arguments for Ay: Show and nice Color and old gen... 
Counterarguments for Ay: fat, Diabetes, and die faster.. ...

My horror vision is to mix Ay with ee... than you don't can see when is Ay or ee activ...

And willowDragon how do you breed Ay?... It is also a lethal gen like W.... It is the same..you can only breed it heterocygot... but i think that is also no discuss... I can imagine that many are simply bred... without ever thought to worry about... LG Tipex


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## WillowDragon

Yes both Ay and Rumpwhite are 'lethal' genes too... but those babies that are Ay/Ay and Rw/Rw don't develop beyond a cell clusture.
Its not the same as have a male MoBr born and having it suffer for weeks and weeks before it dies.


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## Jack Garcia

I disagree that all Ay/* mice die faster. That's partly the same argument that is used against Avy/* mice, and I had one who was at least 31 months old, maybe even older (she was from a pet store!). Her daughters lived to nearly that and her grandchildren are probably still alive (I haven't checked--they'd be living with somebody I haven't spoken to in a long time).

Notice what I'm _not_ saying: I'm not saying that in general Ay/* mice aren't affected negatively by obesity and tumors. They can be. I'm saying that, bred properly, they can be (and are) managed well. It's part of what makes red a challenging variety.


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## SarahY

This post is going round in circles now and has become rather pointless. Everything that could be said has been said, at least twice already. Might be time for everyone to just accept that people have an opinion different to their own and back off.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

That's a really good idea!


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## tipex

> This post is going round in circles now and has become rather pointless. Everything that could be said has been said, at least twice already. Might be time for everyone to just accept that people have an opinion different to their own and back off.


Yes you say it.

I would only show you why you don't can breed Ay healthy Let me explain Than you understand why i am like a donkey. ;o) 
LOL i explain in a very easy english so all must understand

You don't can breed Ay healthy...Because.. the Ay have a deletion&#8230; the information for ,how many do you eat, it is go away..
this is a normal Agout ... and for a Ay... you see the sequence is delete... than you have a Ay.. 









The Ay have now the same effect like the Agouti-related Protein (AGRP) in the Brain. So the Body weight regulation have a problem

&#8230;..In the Pic you see the left site..it is normal for have hungry (ingestion)..and on the right site you see the problem.. normal this way say: You don't have hungry.. so you don't eat. But the Ay give the same information like the AGRP on the left site to the right site. So you have all time hungry. You must eat all time&#8230; you have no limit no regulation. 
So all Ay or Avy get fat&#8230; because they have all time hungry&#8230; ---- When you eat all time.. your body give up.. too much sugar&#8230; all time.. you get Diabetes Typ 2. So please don't say you can managed them! If you know the way, it is not possible to breed it healthy. Never.... the information is delete&#8230; only the mg/mg can help.. but than Ay is not fat! I don't belive that uk have this gen.. US can have perhaps. When you have luck










The Ay must show like this.. in 5-7 Months ... but for Show thy are mostly younger.. or they life not long..










I hope you understand know why you don't can breed it healthy... .. LG Tipex


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## SarahY

That is enough. I've locked this thread because I feel it has spread into areas that are potentially very upsetting and I can see no resolution for the issues brought up, only continued argument.

_Be nice to each other and respect everyone's opinions._

Sarah xxx


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