# Huh, what?



## Gracegarden (May 30, 2012)

I have been trying to learn/research the necessary information for the selective breeding of a better mouse.
I am so confused.

I have been to many websites, AFRMA, Finnmouse, this forum, and a few others.
At first I thought memorizing the abbreviations of breeds and varieties was the thing to do, while also studying genetics, chromosomes, alleles, diploid cells, and loci and so many other things I cannot yet grasp...I am still (or maybe even MORE confused.)

Please help me start to understand this. What is in front and after the front-slash? What do the spaces mean? Why an asterisk (instead of another seemingly random letter?) Why so many slashes to begin with?

Are there some articles I can read or perhaps a secret code that would allow me to understand? I would even be willing to learn a secret handshake.
Can someone explain these columns to me?

at/* B/* cch/cch D/* P/* (we'll start with an easy one)

Thank you!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Gracegarden said:


> Please help me start to understand this.


Gladly. 



> What is in front and after the front-slash?


Every mouse receives 50% of its heritage from mom, and 50% from dad. The slash just denotes a different parent, a mouse who was Z/T would have one copy of the "Z" allele and one copy of the "T" allele (those alleles don't actually exist, they're just an example) on the same locus. "Locus" is just the Latin way of saying "location," so you can think of it as though they have different "versions" of the same allele in the same place. The fact that both are capitalized here means both are dominant. One would have come from mom, and the other from dad.

So a mouse who was J/q (also just as an example) would have one copy of the J allele (dominant, because it's capitalized) and one copy of the q allele (recessive, because it's lowercase). In other words, it would be a J mouse carrying q.



> What do the spaces mean?


In "A/a B/b C/c" (for example), the spaces are just spaces.



> Why an asterisk (instead of another seemingly random letter?)


M/* means the dominant allele (usually the one you can see) is known to be M, but the asterisk means the second one could be anything. It might be M, it might be m, it might be Mnopqrstuv, but it's not known for sure. (These allele combinations don't actually exist, either).



> Why so many slashes to begin with?


Because they each represent a locus. A/* represents the A(gouti)-locus, B/* represents the brown ("chocolate") locus, and so on. There are dozens of loci.



> Are there some articles I can read or perhaps a secret code that would allow me to understand?


You can ask me, either on this forum, my forum, facebook, or wherever.



> Can someone explain these columns to me?
> 
> at/* B/* cch/cch D/* P/*


Yes, the above mouse is tan (at/*), NOT chocolate (B/*) chinchilla (cch/cch), is NOT blue (D/*) or pink-eyed (P/*) because remember--blue and pink eyes are recessive, so D/* or P/* means they're dominant for "not blue" or "not pink eyes."



> Thank you!


You're welcome. I hope I've helped!


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## Gracegarden (May 30, 2012)

Not quite there, Jack. Sometimes I think I am understanding, but when I quiz myself I am only correct a small percentage of the time.

Let's return to this mouse:
at/* B/* cch/cch D/* P/*

Are these letters describing one particular mouse, the mouse's parents or both?

Also,
Dominant means "how the mouse actually appears."
Recessive has nothing to do with the mouse outward appearance, but instead, what it carries. What it's offspring could look like/what it's parents were.
Yes?

(I'm getting most of my info from slogging through FinnMouse http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/b-locus.html )


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Gracegarden said:


> Let's return to this mouse:
> at/* B/* cch/cch D/* P/*
> 
> Are these letters describing one particular mouse, the mouse's parents or both?


Both, really. It's describing the mouse you see before you, but that mouse got its alleles from its parents.



> Dominant means "how the mouse actually appears."


Usually, yes. A mouse that is dominant for agouti (A/a) will look agouti. I'm speaking very broadly here.



> Recessive has nothing to do with the mouse outward appearance, but instead, what it carries. What it's offspring could look like/what it's parents were.
> Yes?


Yes. A mouse who carried black (A/a, the same mouse I just mentioned) would still be agouti.


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## Gracegarden (May 30, 2012)

Can this be simplified any more? 
Possibly:
_/_ what the mouse looks like, _/_ what the mouse carries (because of parents,) _/_ what color the eyes are, _/_ what the mouse ate for dinner???

Are their some basic assumptions I should already be working with?
Is there a chart to memorize, and then fill in the blanks between the slashes?


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## Gracegarden (May 30, 2012)

Back to Mr. Mouse
at/* B/* cch/cch D/* P/*

he is showing tan/we don't know what else
he is showing dominant black/but we don't know what else
how do we know he is siamese? He is a Black Tan. (photo here - http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varie ... k_fox.html )

D means he's dominant for something (how do you know what it is NOT?)
P is capitalized so something is dominant, wouldn't a capital P mean Pink?

Ugh! :?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Mr. Mouse is a black fox! 

at/* - he is tan/don't know but we do know it's not red (Ay) or agouti (A) as these are part dominant over tan.
B/* - he is not chocolate/but could carry it.
cch/cch - two copies of the chinchilla gene, which means the tan belly is diluted to white.
D/* - he is not blue/but could carry it.
P/* - he is not dove/but could carry it.

at/at = tan. at/a tan carrying self. a/a = self
B/B = black not carrying chocolate. B/b he is black but does carry chocolate. b/b = he is chocolate.
C/C = full colour (black in this case). C/cch = full colour but carries chinchilla. cch/cch = displaying chinchilla (which dilutes red pigment to white but doesn't affect black pigment).
D/D = black not carrying blue. D/d = black but carries blue. d/d = he is blue
P/P = black not carrying pink eye dilute. P/p = black but carries pink eye dilute. p/p = dove.


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## Gracegarden (May 30, 2012)

Yeah! Most of that was actually understood!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

> Every mouse receives 50% of its heritage from mom, and 50% from dad. The slash just denotes a different parent, a mouse who was Z/T would have one copy of the "Z" allele and one copy of the "T" allele (those alleles don't actually exist, they're just an example) on the same locus. "Locus" is just the Latin way of saying "location," so you can think of it as though they have different "versions" of the same allele in the same place. The fact that both are capitalized here means both are dominant. One would have come from mom, and the other from dad.
> 
> So a mouse who was J/q (also just as an example) would have one copy of the J allele (dominant, because it's capitalized) and one copy of the q allele (recessive, because it's lowercase). In other words, it would be a J mouse carrying q.


I feel the need to mention that you would not have 2 completely different letters on either side of the slash....as different letters would denote different loci/genes. On either side of the slash you will always have 2 alleles of the same gene, or a star denoting an unknown allele i.e. A/a, B/b, A^y/a, Mo^br/mo^br, c^ch/c^h, etc.



> Dominant means "how the mouse actually appears."


 Dominant means one allele is capable of hiding another. Recessive means 2 copies of an allele must be present for it to express that trait. Dominant does NOT necessarily mean that a trait is visible. A is dominant to a....but if a mouse is c/c, you will not see that it is also A/*. For example.....a mouse that is A/a P/p b/b d/d c/c is genetically lilac agouti (A/a b/b d/d)....however you cannot see any of those traits, because it is also genetically albino, so phenotypically (visibly) all you see is a pink eyed white. Agouti (A) is dominant to non-agouti (a), but with c/c also present, the agouti is hidden. c/c hiding the the traits on other loci/genes means that it is epistatic to the other traits (like dominant...but dominant only refers to the alleles on one locus/gene). This mouse would also be carrying the pink eyed gene (p)...so were it not albino, it would not be pink eyed, but would be capable of producing pink eyed offspring.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Stina said:


> I feel the need to mention that you would not have 2 completely different letters on either side of the slash....as different letters would denote different loci/genes.


I know, but I was trying to make it appear as different (and clear) as possible, which is why I used made-up examples. Sorry if that confused you!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Making up examples that make no sense and would not ever exist isn't helpful


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## Gracegarden (May 30, 2012)

I did understand Jack's 'not possible' examples (as being examples,) but you also helped immensely, Stina. I did not completely understand the dominant part of the equation. I was stuck on thinking Dominant meant "visible." It is becoming more clear, and I also get that there are co-dominants (which I now realize is so, but to me it is not intuitive.)

This is actually becoming more fun and less frustrating. You all are excellent teachers and very patient people.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Some may understand an example like jack gave...but it could just confuse others even more. I do feel a lot of what jack said was helpful, but I don't ever consider anything that's completely inaccurate to be very helpful. (btw...I consider jack a very close friend of mine and I know he's a big boy and can handle my telling him I think he's wrong...lol...he'd do it to/for me  )

Genetics is a complicated subject....very complicated....lol It can take a great deal of time to figure out even the "simplest" of genetics....b/c there is often an exception to any "rule." I happen to love genetics myself....and it was my favorite course in college...but even those of us with a good understanding have trouble figuring things out sometimes! It is easy to get discouraged....but remember we all have frustrations with genetics...its not just you!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

No, you're right. If you think I'm wrong to explain something a certain way, I want to know! Pedagogy is important.


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