# Black Eyed Siamese



## MiceGalaxyDK (May 26, 2009)

Well, I love siamese and also breed them, BUT they are red eyed, is there any way to breed a black eyed siamese without one, or should there be one before i can? we doesn't have them here in DK. 

I'm still hanging a little bit loose in genetics, so please be gentle when you talk about genetic


----------



## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I believe that shaded siamese have black eyes. I'd guess that lilac (dove) depending on which side of the pond you are on, would be the best shade, although I suspect they can some in a variety of shades. I had one ten years ago and she was a real beauty. Probably any color light enough to provide contrast with the points would work. A diluted blue shaded siamese sounds like it might be lovely as well. Here's a bunch of shaded siamese from the Finnmouse Varieties listings, with nice pictures.

http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/IV.html


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

The same gene combination that dilutes the fur to beige-ish (ch/ch) also dilutes the eyes to red/ruby.

Nearly ALL siamese mice are actually black-eyed genetically (P/P) due to the linkage of the C- and P-loci on chromosome 7. That is to say, when "ch" is inherited, so is "P," but the eyes don't look black due to the dilution mentioned above.

You may find black-eyed siamese in rats, but they're working with different alleles.


----------



## MiceGalaxyDK (May 26, 2009)

*Jack*
But can you make one without actually having a black eyed siamese..(hope that you can understand my baaad english   )


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I think that you may be able to use the ce (beige) allele to create a pointed mouse with black eyes, if bred selectively. You'd need a mouse who had one copy of himalayan (ch) and one copy of beige (ce). That's what some rat people do, if I'm not mistaken...


----------



## MiceGalaxyDK (May 26, 2009)

Jack Garcia said:


> I think that you may be able to use the ce (beige) allele to create a pointed mouse with black eyes, if bred selectively. You'd need a mouse who had one copy of himalayan (ch) and one copy of beige (ce). That's what some rat people do, if I'm not mistaken...


well, is not the same, 

Colorpoint is not me 

I mean a siames with black eyes 

are there some one in the UK who breeds them?


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Genetically, it's a colorpoint beige but bred very selevtively, it's phenotypically as close to black-eyed siamese as you'll get.

Interestingly, the NMC standard for Siamese allows for the eyes to be any color.


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Jack Garcia said:


> Genetically, it's a colorpoint beige but bred very selevtively, it's phenotypically as close to black-eyed siamese as you'll get.
> 
> Interestingly, the NMC standard for Siamese allows for the eyes to be any color.


They are all pink eyed,even though black eyes are allowed.


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

That's what I would have figured.


----------



## MiceGalaxyDK (May 26, 2009)

Okay 

So they can't be breed, without a colourpoint beige?


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Nope. Not easily, at least!


----------



## MiceGalaxyDK (May 26, 2009)

Jack Garcia said:


> Nope. Not easily, at least!


Damn it! 

I thought "well, there is black eyed siamese rats, then there must be black eyed siamese mice" 

But nooooooooo... I have to take what there is 

Thanx for the help.. 

A little siamese question, some of my siamese mice have big spots around the body(if you know what i mean  ) and some of my friends told me that it's because of the temperature.. don't know if it gave any sense


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Siamese mice are prone to molting (shedding large parts of their fur at once) and it often grows back in another color. If it's cold, the spot may grow in darker than the surrounding areas. If it's warm, it may grow in lighter.


----------



## MiceGalaxyDK (May 26, 2009)

Okay..

I looove this forum 

Sometimes I feel that I am a little bit stupid, hehe


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

You're not stupid at all!

Besides, your English is 100% better than my Danish!


----------



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Genetically speaking, if you cross a siamese (ch/ch) with a beige (ce/ce) you would end up with a whole litter of black eyed siamese (ch/ce, otherwise known as colourpoint beige) - 'ce' brings the black eyes and 'ch' brings the points. Though I would think you'd need to selectively breed for a greater contrast between the points, shadings and body colour than there would naturally be, because there's only one gene for points whereas seal point siamese has two.

There's some info here: http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/colorpoint_beige.html. Finnmouse calls it colourpoint beige, but it's the same thing.

Sarah xxx


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Both himalayan and beige (but particulary beige) show great variability in depth of color so it wouldn't surprise me at all to see a phenotypically black eyed siamese bred out of that combination. It might take a couple years and a few generations though.

What would be difficult is that you'd have to keep large numbers of offspring because they wouldn't develop their points right away, and you'd also have lots of mice who were either regular beige (ce/ce) or regular siamese (ch/ch).


----------

