# BEW or PEW



## Cordane

Eye colour doesn't bother me but I'm thinking I would like to breed some as a side project or main project.. 
I don't have any BEW or PEW which I know will make it more complicated but is it possible to produce some with what I have or from breeding possible progeny?? (I hope that made sense).

Here are my girls.












































And my boys


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## MojoMouse

I don't work with piebald or fawn/red mice, but as this thread is unanswered I'll have a go.

BEWs can be made from BE Ay mice, when they are c-diluted. In particular, ce wipes out all the yellow colour. The only (possible) issue with these BEWs is that they're subject to the Ay health issues such as obesity. Obesity has been shown to be directly linked to the amount of phaemelanin in a mouse, so even if the colour is masked, the problem remains. Also, some of the c-dilutes will only give BE cream (or stone/bone/whatever the local fancy calls them).

BEWs can be made from selectively breeding banded mice and/or other varieties of mice with the spotting gene. Once you have double banded mice (homozygous), you're well on the way to your BEWs. This would, I imagine, be a longer process, and you'd still get spotted mice in litters once you had BEWs. It does, however, seem the way to go with the mice you have to work with. A couple of the mice you have are overmarked, so they would be a good start.

Imo a nicely typed BEW is a very beautiful mouse!


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## Cordane

Thank you for answering, its very much appreciated. I believe my next pairings, (when the girls are old enough and big enough as they are only 7-8 weeks now) will be Basil who is a c-dilute with my "argente" girl. Thinking about it, any lightly coloured mouse would be lovely, once I got the colour right, I would work on type and personal preference for features. The other pairing would be my fluffy siamese girl with my dark haired boy. I'm not sure exactly what this would achieve but I'm hoping for long haired mice which may help produce some more. 
Slow improvements. Something I will have to get use to.


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## Frizzle

I think MouseBreeder mentioned it somewhere about bandeds and how she had a line of BEW using them. I could be wrong about who wrote it though. What's nice about homozygous banded is that the color is mostly isolated at the head, little on the rump. I kinda want to breed heavily marked Charlies to see what the patterns will turn out as; the facial spots are more sketchy looking vs. the concrete areas I was expecting. I don't think it would take very long using this method.

Lets say you find a banded mouse and breed it to a self. Since it's a dominant gene, you could take any of the offspring (who're banded) and breed back to the adult (and any banded siblings). This will give you about 25% Charlies in each litter. You could scrap all the heterozygous bandeds at this point, unless a particular pairing gave you especially light marked mice, and continue just with the Charlies. I actually had a couple with almost no spots on their face, but unfortunately my run in with megacolon wiped them out...

Here are some examples of my Charlies:



























Poorly one that just opened her eyes, she'll probably be culled in the near future.









As you can see, the pigment is almost completely isolated to the face with some light marking on the hindquarters and tail. I think this gene would make BEWs easier then s/s because of where the pigment is confined to. AKA, you only have to worry about color in two main areas, vs it popping up anywhere on the body.


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## Cordane

I think my best bet for breeding some light selfs in my girl Zoey who has the spot on her bum. Her current babies are rather high white with one having colour on the face with a spot on the rump and that was with a pied boy so maybe her high white markings can help if I can find a high white or light self male.
I absolutely adore the first two. So cute.


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## Frizzle

Yeah, you gotta work with what you got. : ) Breeding the lightly marked male back to Zoey should work well, I'd also breed him to any females that were lightly marked (girls 2 & 4 in your other thread). Then you can choose high-white babies from both litters vs one.

Thanks, I really like his eyes.


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## Cordane

Yes I do. I'm glad other people say that! 
I think girl 2, who I refer to as Bandit, and Zoey bred to Basil Jr would be good. Basil Jr is lighter than Basil and has more white and breeding Zoey and Bandit to him should, in theory produce higher whites.
Let me get this right, once I get a decent high white, would it be good to try and find a white mouse and breed it to that or would one of my current mice be suitable?


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## Patry

I have obtained BEW and charlies crossing a banded doe and a piebald buck
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/431172_239072282839555_1774438903_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/405945_253979418015508_383803577_n.jpg


















But also I have obtained a BEW baby with a self fawn and a piebald black :/
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/526076_312889185457864_2103710372_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/423960_239061626173954_1448850859_n.jpg










In this last litter I don´t understand why I have a BEW...

Also you can get BEW with variegated + piebald...

Sorry for my bad expression :/


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## Cordane

You're mice are STUNNING!
I have never seen a varigated mouse here so that is out of the question nor have I seen a banded. I hate that NZ has limited genetic variation. Zoeys Dad was a coloured rump while her mother was a fully spotted black eyed mouse so she appeared white.

I adore your fawn mouse by the way. I'm in love with your mice.
Back to the point. The banded doe looks similar to my Bandit girl though yours has a fully coloured head while mine has a mask.
















And actually, the buck you paired her with has a similar colouring to my boy Basil. Similar in my eyes but probably not to everyone else.


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## Patry

Thanks!! I love my babies too 

Your buck is as sweet as mine . I see him very similar to Gummy. He is A/a b/b cch/cch (cinnamon chinchillated)...

And your doe looks double banded too. Some Linn´s brothers are like her, with mask 

I think that you paired both you get BEW ^^


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## Cordane

This breeding was actually to figure out what Basil was. He was from an accidental litter between a pied agouti and a pied tan/fawn thing (pink eyes). He was the only one like it. Total oddball. His brothers were all like mum and Dad and there was a pied black, all standard coats, then there was Basil.

Oh gosh, now I'm all excited about the thought of some BEW! So very very excited. Now I wish my girl would hurry up at age, she is only 3 weeks and 2 days old.. *sigh
Still so excited.

Thank you for telling me that. A few members from another forum said that the doe above is a cinnamon(the photos don't show her color at all) which would explain what dad is, if he is the same as your boy.

So many questions answered! Gosh thank you so so so so so much!


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## Patry

I´ve seen that she is his doughter, no?

She looks cinnamon to me, is like my babies: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/481332_327993867280729_1677099062_n.jpg

Can be Basil cinnamon blue? (Aa bb C* dd Pp). This mouse is blue agouti, and looks similar in shade, but darker: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/542408_3800786070407_1749586913_n.jpg

Mum what colour is? how are undercoat of mum and dad?


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## Cordane

Doubled banded is his daughter, yes. Her sister has a similar colour though she is pied (spots on her body, white face). They both looked like the one of the end right when colour first came in though now they both look similar to your darker babies (to cute!).
Basil could be though his top coat looks lighter than that though is undercoat is rather blue looking or maybe just a dark grey. (his undercoat is similar to the blue cinnamon).

Do you mean Basils parents or the doubled banded cinnamons?
In either case, I'm not sure bout Basils parents, (Basil is 2, his parents are no longer around).
Though I have a feeling you meant the girls..

Right, like I said before, Basils undercoat is like the blue you get in cats but a shade darker. And Mum is a pied.. I don't know what you call her. The colored part is a dark grey. Undercoat is the same as top coat.
She is in the beginning of this thread (not Siamese, the high white girl)


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## Patry

Yes, I meant the girls cinnamons 

I´ve found a "supposed" lilac agouti (or blue cinnamon) and looks "similar" in my eyes, hehehe...










In my litter between Gummy and Peanut I got cinnamons, chocolats and two babies like Gummy. Some people said me that He was lilac agouti, but I don´t know sure, I think that he was cinnamon chinchilated (it´s very difficult :/)

My litter: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/401447_247441372002646_1327578965_n.jpg
He has undercoat chocolate: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422194_250582481688535_36542404_n.jpg

I´m going crazy with colours xDDD


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## Cordane

I can see how without any dilutions, Basil could look like that, though my "argente" girl looks similar to that (beginning Of the thread, mouse in th sunlight). Some people have said to me that basil is a c-dilute brindle, which would explain his roundness but I though if that was the case, I would get some brindle babies right?
Cinnamon seems like a good fit, I dislike doing a test breed and ending up with more questions and very few answers. One of his babies looks almost just like his Dad. Dark undercoat with that grey spotting but is a little lighter (he is only 3 weeks so it may darken). I still seem to have no idea on how these babies tell me what Variety Basil is, I know the broken blacks came from mum but then I'm left with 3 who I have no idea what they are.. Just like Dad or an undilluted version. Oh the possibilities.

Basils undercoat is definitely not a chocolate colour, same with his babies. It's more of a darker grey/blue.
That is an adorable baby though


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## Frizzle

"And your doe looks double banded too. Some Linn´s brothers are like her, with mask"
"Doubled banded is his daughter, yes"

Just wanted to point out your mice are highly unlikely to have any sort of banding going on. For one, both parents need to carry the gene to get offspring that are homozygous for it, and Basil doesn't look like it at all. Even in my extremely poor bandeds, I get very crisp foot stops (not necessarily in the right place), and the pigment areas are not jumbled, they are also extremely crisp/definite. If Zoey was double banded, then about 50% of her litter would have been banded, and 50% selfs. Being that 100% of your babies came out with random color patterns, I would say that she and Basil are both pied. Also, the pigment on her rump is just to solid. While I'm not saying it's impossible, if you compare to the pics I uploaded, pigment concentrates on the head, with a slight spattering on the tail in double banded mice.

Patry: I wouldn't have expected a Banded X Pied to result in a BEW, the genes really shouldn't work that way. Question though, am I seeing a white snippet on the female's nose? If so, then she was probably pied as well, and the s/s is what resulted in a high white baby. Though I suppose that the banding gene would work nice to help eliminate any potential color in the midsection, and the s/s would hide any of the color stops.


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## Cordane

Frizzle, thank you for that. Other than breeding Charlie's, is there any other way I could get a BEW with what I have? In all honesty, I'm pretty sure I would be happy having any self light colored mouse.


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## Patry

Frizzle said:


> Patry: I wouldn't have expected a Banded X Pied to result in a BEW, the genes really shouldn't work that way. Question though, am I seeing a white snippet on the female's nose? If so, then she was probably pied as well, and the s/s is what resulted in a high white baby. Though I suppose that the banding gene would work nice to help eliminate any potential color in the midsection, and the s/s would hide any of the color stops.


Then, why I have obtained BEW?

Linn has a line in her nose, yes . But all his brothers and sisters who have had offspring, have been banded or similar...

Linn´s babies (with Gummy)

















Leeds´s babies (linn´s brother) 









Linn´s sister (with Jui, my fawn self)

























Other sister with other fawn self









Another linn´s brother (the same father, "albino"), Kotton, has with a siamese doe, this litter:









We assume that Kotton and his dad has BEW with pink eyes...

Some explanation of why we obtained babies with the same spots even if the other progenitor is self?

And why I have a BEW baby between a self fawn and a pied black?

I´m lost with that


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## Frizzle

Cordane said:


> Frizzle, thank you for that. Other than breeding Charlie's, is there any other way I could get a BEW with what I have? In all honesty, I'm pretty sure I would be happy having any self light colored mouse.


Just keep selecting the most high white pied mice, and if you have the pink eye gene in there, stay away from it. Otherwise you'll end up with mice that look like albinos. I would breed some of the high-pigment areas together, It would be good to know if you have triocolors or brindles.



Patry said:


> Frizzle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Patry: I wouldn't have expected a Banded X Pied to result in a BEW, the genes really shouldn't work that way. Question though, am I seeing a white snippet on the female's nose? If so, then she was probably pied as well, and the s/s is what resulted in a high white baby. Though I suppose that the banding gene would work nice to help eliminate any potential color in the midsection, and the s/s would hide any of the color stops.
> 
> 
> 
> Then, why I have obtained BEW?
Click to expand...

So the banded gene hid any color in the mouse's midsection. Both parents were probably pied, so the areas that would have been mainly affected with color (head and rump) were mostly covered up with s/s (pied). That is the only way I could see your first BEW happening.



Patry said:


> Some explanation of why we obtained babies with the same spots even if the other progenitor is self?


For the most part, banded clears the midsection. Depending on how you select for it, you can end up with bigger or smaller areas, and if you don't select against spotting, you can end up with color blobs.



Patry said:


> And why I have a BEW baby between a self fawn and a pied black?


I only really know about banded mice, sorry! Maybe the self was S/s and his "s" modifiers were for high white mice?


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## Cordane

Frizzle said:


> Just keep selecting the most high white pied mice, and if you have the pink eye gene in there, stay away from it. Otherwise you'll end up with mice that look like albinos. I would breed some of the high-pigment areas together, It would be good to know if you have triocolors or brindles.


I doubt that any of the babies are brindles or tricolours. The two I suspected may be have totally evened out now  
I believe Basil is probably a diluted cinnamon, his mum was an agouti while dad was a pink eyed.. "tan" though where the dilution came from, I don't know. That would cause the two babies that are the orangey colour would be cinnamons but carrying a dilute gene, (I assume).
I only have three mice that have ruby eyes, one I will never breed from though, (siamese and argente) and I don't plan on breeding them into the possible cinnamon lines, I might breed them with an agouti..

Well that was a bit of a ramble..
Thank you Frizzle.


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## Patry

Hi!^^

Yes, my self fawn carry piebald, but is little white: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/542298_327219287358187_1426602718_n.jpg

I´ve got another BEW...I don´t know from where ¬¬

The first baby of the right









Mum (mother fawn and father siamese): https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422675_270099333070183_517555494_n.jpg

Dad (Gummy, parents unknow): pics on this thread

I don´t understand this "gene"...

I assume that the are extreme piebald?


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## Cordane

I want your mice.. Just saying


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## Patry

Hopefully you are nearest D


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## Cordane

I hate that importing mice is illegal.. I love love love your mice.


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## Patry

Oiisssss, thanks!!!!









Yes....it's a shame ...


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## Cordane

I would love to get that lovely rich fawn colour. It's gorgeous.
Smuggle them in as baby rats.. Haha.


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## MojoMouse

Can you import rats into NZ? Lucky people. Our ban extends to all rodents.


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## Cordane

Oh wait.. Good point. That's illegal too.. Damn. Could they pass as baby chinchillas?


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## MojoMouse

I'd check on that one too. :lol:

It would be easier to instruct your little immigrant mouse to be VERY still and no squeaks, and just stroll on though customs wearing it as a furry decoration on your hat.


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## Cordane

Chinchillas are allowed to be imported if they are from the US. I was reading up about importing rodents laws.


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## MojoMouse

Really? Wow - I might check to see if it's the same in Australia. Just out of curiosity, though. I'm not sure what I'd do with a chinchilla even if i could get one.


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## Cordane

Oh I have no interest in chinchillas either. They're cute and all but why import them when I can get the exact same in the pet store..


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## Seafolly

Ohhhhh this is a great thread! 

Okay so BE RY x Beige will likely bring about a BEW. That's pretty wonderful news. I'd love to try working on a longhaired satin BEW line. However! The high white pied RY F1 girl I have (still too young to breed so I have lots of time to dwell) has a mother with pink eyes. Does this mean that breeding her back to her beige dad will possibly bring out lots of PEW? I personally like them, but do need to keep numbers down if I want to keep doing this. aka need to produce mice that people will want to adopt! I can cull, but don't want to cull as many next time. It seems PEW is unpopular which makes me sad.


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## Cordane

I have no idea how to answer your question but I know a lot of people who are "afraid" of PEW. I know some who say they are "evil". Many times I believe that it is just because they're "different". Just like people treat someone who has albinism, (?), they will treat them different and some religious really religious people say they carry the devil
The eyes scare them.


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## Seafolly

Oh, I know why, haha. Plus there's the element of rarity when it comes to pets. You see black cats and tabby cats packed into shelters but the second an exotic looking one pops up she's adopted. PEW is the traditional lab mouse. And yes, people don't like red eyes. Not as "cute."


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## MojoMouse

PEWs *are* evil. I had one once. She dominated the other mice, practiced mind control on my cat, and relentlessly schemed to take over the household. Her ultimate dastardly plan was to make me her slave. I'm lucky to have survived the experience. It was horrible, and I find it difficult to talk about to this day.

When a PEW sweetly looks up at you, trying to be cute and appealing, don't be fooled...


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## Seafolly

:lol: 
I've only had four PEW's over the years but each one was a total sweetheart. All from shelters too from questionable backgrounds. The only one that really caused trouble (for himself) was in a three tiered hamster cage. Rather huge actually, probably could have house a medium sized bird. He lived there happily for about a year before he decided to slip through the bars and into the jaws of my cat. My cat, having waited so patiently, proudly presented my mouse during a large dinner party. Being only 12 at the time, I turned that into a fiasco rather quickly.


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## Cordane

And that is why we don't have dinner parties. Kidding. The reason we don't have dinner parties is because Dad and I have like.. No friends and because when mum left, she took the table.
I have never had a BEW or a PEW. I had a beige girl, that's the closest I got. Though apparently in Auckland, (2 hours away) at the time I had the beige, PEW were produced a lot. I didn't have my license at the time plus my mum and grandma would have murdered me and I'd be grounded for ages if I had of done a trip to Auckland alone.


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## MojoMouse

I think you and your dad need to get another table.


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## Cordane

Why get another table when we have no friends? There isn't much point 
Dad is way to anti-social and I'm.. to shy. Yes, shy. Quiet. Nervous.


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## Seafolly

Not to make things awkward but I'm agoraphobic with panic disorder so...high five. ;D But people like quiet people! We listen better.


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## Cordane

According to doctors I suffer from stress, severe anxiety and that has caused depression. Countless counsellors since I was 11. 
High five! Lol


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## MojoMouse

It doesn't make things awkward, Seafolly! More people should just come out and mention these things. Not making a big issue, just mentioning if relevant, exactly like both of you have done. It would go a long way to making these issues less stigmatised, and more widely recognised for how common they are.

In my teens I suffered major reactive depression, and anxiety. It persisted through my twenties. No-one who didn't know me well would have known about it. The conditions have long since resolved, but I had CBT, which helped. So, Cordane, it may not be something you have to deal with for life. 

I'm just so impressed with the practical way you've both mentioned this. After all, it's a condition just like any other condition, and shouldn't be embarrassing. In Australia recently, a LOT of highly respected, successful people have come forward and talked about their struggles with mental illnesses such as depression. The idea is to bring it into the open and get rid of the stereotypes and stigma associated with it.

(I hope I haven't embarrassed either of you by picking up on this.)

And yes, Seafolly, quiet people who are good listeners are the BEST company.


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## Cordane

Not embarrassed at all 
The depression and stress only came about after my car crash in 2009 after a mild brain injury. The anxiety has always been there, it's probably due to the unstable childhood I had, but I'm not complaining


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## Seafolly

Oh I'm glad.  Most people don't seem to know what to do with the information and avoid it. It would be wonderful if there was more awareness particularly within my university's disability centre. It's their job to know, and they don't.

I have heard great things about CBT - I'm one of the few it didn't work for entirely. I was diagnosed in 2001, progressed and had a few almost-normal years again, and it creeped back in 2007 unfortunately. Can't say things have improved since! I suppose when one lives with a condition for so long we barely think twice about it. I know a number of people very self-aware of their anxiety issues but in my case, it's so much easier to put it out there. Much easier to explain to a professor at the beginning of the semester rather than after bolting out of a lecture or lab.  No embarrassment here at all!

Cordane, could PTSD have anything to do with it? A friend of mine was kidnapped as a child and although nothing physically happened to her, the shock caused what appears as depression and stress. Tiny things will set her stress levels soaring. I'm sorry the anxiety was always there though. I was lucky and had 16 normal years before dealing with agoraphobic tendencies with eventually became full blown agoraphobia. I could write an essay (or a book ) on the subject but you two sure aren't alone.


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## Cordane

Oh it is possible that it is from PTSD, I have had to switch doctors so often because they have left or something and I just got sick of mentioning it and they don't have the time to look that far back, I visit the doctors a lot..
You would think moving to a new school almost every year would make me not be so nervous of new people and judgement but it almost terrifies me. It gets to the stage where I isolate myself from almost every one bar my dad, mum and stepdad, (need to get a present for him, birthday tomorrow).. I have always dealt with animals better, it kind of feels like if I don't have animals around, I'm really, truely alone and I hate that.
Many of my friends love people, being social, going out, parties etc, I'm not a people person and they don't understand it so they somewhat avoid me.
I think we should make a new thread, this has nothing to do with BEW or PEW though is it genetic? Dun dun dun


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## MojoMouse

Your changing schools is interesting. I can see how that could foster a sense of anxiety. For some people it would make them very outgoing as they developed strategies for fitting into constantly changing environments, but for others it could have the opposite effect. Children need a certain amount of stability. It sounds like your situation was difficult. On the positive side, as you go through life, when you form friendships (and you will), you're the type of person that would be the best friend someone could have. I imagine you'd be loyal and supportive. Isn't it better to have a small number of true friends rather than a huge social network of "aquaintances"?

I kind of like how some threads evolve into different conversations. It's ok if the OP is part of these.


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## Cordane

Personally I believe stability is hugely important in a young child's development. I believe the anxiety has come from never knowing what's going to happen. It probably also has to do with moving around so often that I never had time to truely trust someone enough to open up so I started bottling everything up until one day, something so silly would set me off and I'd be bawling my eyes out.
I think it also helps to have stable parents, my mum has been married 3 times and I can honestly say, I don't ever remember my mum being single. It's like one day she will be with one guy and as soon as that's over, she is with someone else. My dad and I have discussed this and the only way we can explain it is that she is half a person, not whole without someone else, she sees herself how others see her otherwise she sees nothing but the bad.

My Dad... He is stable. He won't move houses unless he has to, he doesn't want to get married again. "to lazy" he says. His problem is he doesn't show that he cares. 
I haven't had an "I love you" or a hug from him since I was 10
When I had my car crash and was threatened with a broken neck, he drove home, he didn't visit me in hospital.

Oh my family is a mess. 
To this day I still bottle things up because I find it hard to open up to people when they don't have divorced parents or anything I can somewhat relate to. I swear, all my friends have "happy families".

Mojo, I agree totally that it is much better to have a few close friends, that is generally my situation though my close friends are now off to UNI and living their life. It's like being left behind again.


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## MojoMouse

I empathise with the issue of moving around a lot as a child. I was raised in an Air Force family. We moved every year. The good thing was it made me adaptable. The challenging thing was that even though I can make friends quickly and fit in to different environments, I find it hard to make close friends. So, I can relate to what you're saying. But, I can say from experience that as you go through adult life, these things balance out. I can also relate to the disfunctional family thing too!  But, again, this too has had mixed effects. The best thing was that I never had an idealised view of families or life in general - I say "best" because I think this has made me more tolerant and open minded about different people and different ways. Everyone has a story that makes them what they are.

As far as your friends with their perfect families, well, you never know what's really going on in their lives, and things are rarely as they seem.


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## Cordane

I just meant "perfect families" in the sense that their parents are still together, they haven't had to deal with their mum or dad having new partners, maybe marrying them and even when you don't want to, you do get attached to them and in time, they just walk out of your life. My mums second marriage was to a guy who had a kid, I got to have a younger brother. I look back and realize how much fun it was having a little brother and even though we argued, I did actually start to refer to him as my brother. Nowadays I just have memories.

I would never wish moving so often on anyone. 
I believe one piece of information I have left out, I do make friends easily, but I'm scared to and everytime I feel like I'm just the odd one out. This is probably due to not really opening up.

Well this lovely chat seems to have turned into me ranting about my life, sorry.


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