# NEW pictures 1/31 (check this out candycorn)



## Shadowrunner

The mouse I got from candycorn had her babies this morning.
17 of em. I'm trying to foster a majority of them over to my other does
but their babies are significantly older than hers.

I have pictures. I wanted to do a head count and a health check, so I snapped a few right before putting them back.
Sorry about how blurry they are.


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## candycorn

Wow...she only had six last time!


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## Rhasputin

I only see 16, but still, wow!


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## Stina

I think there's 17....I think there's 5 in the "pile" to the right in the first pic...not just 4.

That's lots of babies!!!!


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## Shadowrunner

you would be right. The pile in my hand was about an inch thick too xD
I didn't want to keep them out too long so I couldn't get very many good photos. I just wish I had more fosters available. I had guessed nine, but this...
The tricolor was their sire wasn't he?
She was so miserable last night, the poor thing.


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## candycorn

Shadowrunner said:


> you would be right. The pile in my hand was about an inch thick too xD
> I didn't want to keep them out too long so I couldn't get very many good photos. I just wish I had more fosters available. I had guessed nine, but this...
> The tricolor was their sire wasn't he?
> She was so miserable last night, the poor thing.


Yes, the tricolor rex is the father. Man...what a load she had! Makes me really consider only having one birth per doe!


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## Shadowrunner

Well I've only gotten a few mice here and there recently.
I've been holding back until I can get some good stock from other breeders.(like you)
So my numbers are lower than I like right now anyway.
All of these babies I have now are worth their weight in gold as far as I'm concerned for a few reasons.
xD

I really wasn't expecting it to be honest, I'm just glad I have abundant room.

In other notes..
I went to separate the boys from a previous litter and one really stumped me.
I thought nipples only appeared on does..and this one is quite obviously male.
So I have him in his own tank until I'm absolutely certain.


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## Laigaie

Dooooood. Too many babies by half! How many foster does have you got? I keep multiple does going at once for fostering purposes, but I'd not have space for seventeen, even if they were the best ever mice! Also: Oh, no! Nipples and scrotum?


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## Shadowrunner

I know right?
I have three fosters but they have babies of their own too.
I'm going to cull out the four runts for sure. They look really under developed.
I have space for more than 17 mice, I just don't have enough in the way of lactating females to grow them.
A day earlier and I might have been able to pull it off because I had boys from two litters weaned off yesterday. but then they are much older and I'm not sure if milk for weanlings will be as good as milk for newborns. *sigh* I wish I could keep them all but it looks like I'm going to have o take out quite a few of them.

Yep I personally think he's pretty cool and probably the best mouse I've bred myself in terms of type and color.
I'll post pictures of him later.
Oh my.. I just remembered.
I was going to enter that one in the April show, would his nipples get him disqualified?? xD


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## Gill

Oh no, not another hermaphrodite (mine was the same - a male with nipples).


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## candycorn

Gill said:


> Oh no, not another hermaphrodite (mine was the same - a male with nipples).


I think the more we breed and really pay attention to the mice, the more we will see hermaphrodites pop up. One of my beloved departed whippets was a hermaphrodite as well. She had a very small nubbin visible in her vaginal opening, but when I had her spayed she displayed all the parts of both genders. I informed her breeder in hopes that her line would not continue, but was ignored of course. It happens in pets rarely according to my vet at the time, but it does definatly happen. 
*Unrelated...but that darn vet charged me DOUBLE for the spay and neuter! Ratfink! LOL!


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## Stina

Candy, its highly unlikely that there is any genetic component to hermaphrodites, so discontinueing to breed a line b/c of a hermaphrodite would be completely pointless.


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## candycorn

Stina that could be true. Honestly I have not done any studing on the matter.

*edit..actually it can indeed be genetic! After doing a little research super quick I found that it depends on the type of disorder. Some forms of pseudohermaphrodite can in fact be genetic, and is more common in some breeds of dogs. Life is very interesting isn't it? 
So since we don't know if these mice are true hermaphrodites or pseudohermaphrodites then we really can't say at this point if it's genetic or just a fluke.


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## Frizzle

On a somewhat related topic regarding cows, if you twins of opposite genders, the female will be sterile. My dad tried to tell me about why as a kid, but I never really got it. Something about the male hormones messes with the females in utero. What will happen to the female is she will have a little bit of development in the way of a sheath (so a bump of skin kind of like a belly button where the males would usually have a longer tuft of hair), some malformation/usually flattening to the labia, and a "beard" growing from below the vagina, like the tuft on the male got misplaced. When the vet would sleeve these girls, it was the same no-go every time. Typically these are the only female calves sold (back in my childhood days) at auctions, so maybe 1 out of 10 heifers would be fertile. It also wasn't apparent at a young age.


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## Stina

That is correct Frizzle...for whatever reason in cows, the hormones produced by the calves reach one-another.

This is going to be a SUPER simplistic explanation of the causes of some hermaphrodites/infertile animals...
During development 2 things have to happen for a genetic male to become male...first, the male hormones have to be "turned on," second, the body needs to be sensitive to those hormones. Male hormones "turn off" the development of female reproductive organs...and "turn on" the development of male organs. The "default" gender for mammals is female. If the male hormones are not produced or there is an insensitivity to the male hormones, an animal will be genetically male, but develop as a female and be 100% female phenotypically. If SOME levels of male hormone are produced (and the body is recepteive to them) you can end up with a range of hermaphroditic features or just infertility. If a genetically female fetus is subjected to male hormones they "turn off" or stunt the development of the female organs so these females become infertile. The majority of the time, pseudohermaphrodites are genetically male.

In the case of cows the testosterone from the bull calf is recieved by the heifer calf and stunts the development of the reproductive tract...when those heifer calfs are disected, you find a markedly underdeveloped uterus.


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## mousery_girl

wow and i thought mine had a lot - 9 and 10 from 2 new mums!


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## Shadowrunner

It's crazy and these babies are even louder than I'm used to.
I seriously thought I heard her eating one. 
It's not a quiet buisness, eating offspring...but I checked, and it was just the babies nursing loudly.
So I had to take out the four runts. the littlest one was covered in bruises and looked more embryonic than I'm used to. I have 6 with the birth mom fudge and the remaining seven split up with three foster does. I'll keep this updated on their progress. <3

My grandmother named the little shemale Hermetta. 
I think it's neat, but then again I'm fascinated with things like this.
I'm not sure if he can breed and if he can I don't know if I will.
I know national geographic did a special on human hermaphrodites. Where genetically the girl is male, but has spent her whole life as a girl until she reaches puberty and nothing happens.
Actually I think they included chimeras too. Where there had been a fraternal twin, but one absorbed the other and now has the DNA of both twins. Fascinating stuff.


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## Laigaie

Just to let you know, the term "shemale" is considered extremely impolite in some circles. :? It's not something that's discussed as "hate speech" most of the time, but definitely qualifies.  From your fascination, I assume you meant no ill-will, nor am I personally offended.


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## Shadowrunner

Oh no, I didn't even know that it was a term for anything.
Sending you question via PM btw, I don't want to offend anyone accidentally.


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## mousery_girl

Frizzle said:


> if you twins of opposite genders, the female will be sterile.
> 
> 
> 
> does this occur in humans? An old friend of mine was a triplet with 2 brothers...
Click to expand...


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## Stina

It does not happen in most species....usually the hormones of fetuses cannot cross placental membranes (and as such the hormones of one fetus cannot affect the development of another)...but for whatever reason they do in cattle.


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## skinnybaby212

> does this occur in humans? An old friend of mine was a triplet with 2 brothers...


no, it cant do, my dad has a twin sister and she has children


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## Laigaie

Apparently, in humans, the fetus rarely shares the placenta, and even less rarely shares the amniotic sac, only doing so in a very very few cases of identical twins. Given that identical twins are naturally of the same sex, this is a non-issue in humans.


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## MoonfallTheFox

EE, you got one of the hermaphrodite mice! That's so cool. Pictures?

...I want one. <3


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## Shadowrunner

I'll post pictures of him in a few days when this litter is worth looking at too. I can't wait to see what I've got here.
All I have is a DSi camera, so everything is blurry.
I'm not sure if I can get it to pick up small details like nipples but I will certainly try.

Just wondering. If a individual like this mouse is fully functioning, reproductively viable and the condition is genetic..
(assuming there are no health/psychological issues) Would it be unethical to breed for it? I realize it's considered a defect, but if the mouse is entirely healthy what would be the reason against it? I'm just rolling it around in my head, I don't think I personally would breed for it but at the same time it's a interesting concept.


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## Stina

why would you want to breed males with nipples? Nipples are one of the easiest ways for people to determine if babies are males or females at a young age...males with nipples would confuse people! lol Also...what about that as a feature makes it desireable in any way? Infertile pseudohermaphrodites are desireable for the fact that they are infertile, and can, as such, be kept with adult bucks so they don't have to live alone. Why would a fertile male with nipples be desireable?


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## MoonfallTheFox

If it was infertile, though, then I would breed for it, but that's personal opinion. I could see a colony of them, then you'd -never- have pregnancy, and you could also have company for bucks.


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## Shadowrunner

I guess the idea was kind of like how slugs reproduce.
They have reproductive organs of both genders and not only can they get the other slug pregnant, sometimes they leave the deal
with babes on board as well. Theoretically speaking, if you had a line of fully viable herms.
Lets say normally you have a litter and hope you get exactly what you need, maybe a female of a certain variety to match with a preexisting male.
The only one you get in the range you need turns out to be male and now you have to try again. In the case of the hermaphrodite mice, it wouldn't matter so much about gender. I didn't think about the nipples like that though, I only use them when I'm really stumped... That makes sense though.

Like I said before, it's purely a theoretical ethics thing. It's pretty cool to see it from you point of view


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## Stina

A fertile true hermaphrodite (fully functional male and female reproductive organs) is impossible in mammals. It plain and simple cannot happen. Animals that have features of both genders still only have one set of gonads that normally develop into ovaries or testes....ovaries and testes start as the same organ fetally and hormones dictate which organ they develop into, but they can't develop into both!


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## Gill

Mine was certainly fully functional as a male, judging by the number of surprise pregnancies. I'm praying that none of the babies will be like their sire - I'm going to Tenerife in February, so will have to cull all the males as they would be too young to leave their mothers before I go, but would reach maturity while I am away (and this batch of unwanted pregnancies is more than enough). Another hermaphrodite would be all I need!


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## Laigaie

Stina: this is simply not true. There are plenty of infertile intersexed humans, but also plenty of partially and fully fertile intersex folks. A good friend of mine has both given birth and impregnated her wife. You can have double gonads, either of the same or opposite sexes, because of the way twins can combine in utero. For my good friend, she went through phases every few years with her hormones flipflopping around before she decided to put a stop to all that with medications. Also, my Health teacher in high school had double uterii and four ovaries (two attached to each uterus). It all attached to the same cervix, and that gave her an awful lot of trouble when she got pregnant.

I think the problem with breeding FOR the trait in mice would be that you'd have to keep them all separate. On the other hand, you'd be able to put any mouse in with any other mouse for a litter. I've definitely had times when my best two mice of a variety were of the same sex, which can be frustrating.


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## Stina

I never said a pseudohermaphrodite could not be fertile, simply that a TRUE hermaphrodite with fully functional reproductive organs of both genders is impossible...which IS true. Even if 2 sets of organs are possible, it would NOT be possible for both to be fully functional b/c of the way hormones function.

The type of situation you describe is a complete fluke, not in any way genetic related and even with 2 sets of gametes, they would never develop into both ovaries and testicles.


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## tinyhartmouseries

> A good friend of mine has both given birth and impregnated her wife.





> a TRUE hermaphrodite with fully functional reproductive organs of both genders is impossible...


 Hang on...didn't Laigaie just describe a scenario making it possible? :?:


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## MoonfallTheFox

I believe that in order to have two sets of functioning reproductive organs, there has to have been a twin that was absorbed.

That's all the more help I can give.


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## Frizzle

Mosaic syndrome? As you can figure, what happens is you absorb your twin, and use their cells for body parts. It might be a part of your leg, an eye, I don't know much about how it can pertain to the reproductive organs.

How are the babies doing, btw?


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## Laigaie

Indeed, mosaic syndrome is indicated in both situations I described. Perhaps you mean that simultaneously functioning reproductive organs is impossible, which I would certainly accept as reasonable, depending on how you define "functional". If you mean "functional" as in capable of reproducing, that's quite different from likely to reproduce given the realities of living with a variety of genitals that are naturally in a state of flux. Intersex individuals are by definition a fluke, and given that twinning does run in families, I would argue that it can therefore run in families as well.

And, indeed, the babies should be awfully prettier at this point than they were. Updated photos would be super-awesome to squee over.


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## MoonfallTheFox

Yes, having twins runs in families- my family has them, they skip generations.. Crap. That means if I get pregnant I'll probably end up 
with TWO.

I second the more photos thing.


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## Stina

Even with a mosaic it is still IMPOSSIBLE to have functional organs (capable of reduction) of BOTH genders in one animal. For male organs to be functional, male hormones are required, which inhibit the female reproductive tract.....for female organs to be functional, female hormones are required...which inhibit the male reproductive tract...therefore functional organs of both genders are literally impossible. It cannot happen.


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## Shadowrunner

Meh, the philosophy is still there though and I think it's really fascinating.
Never say never, you never know what kind of mutation you'll have next xD
Might be one in five billion but it would still be possible.

Good news and bad news I'm afraid.
A lot of the babies didn't make it. Quite a few were really underdeveloped and the fosters didn't really thrive. I tried my best, even supplementing with KMR in the eye dropper. Sometimes these things happen right? (I feel awful that I couldn't do more)
However you guys are right, I have quite the pile of cuties, two of which are rex :3
Not sure about all the colors yet though.
Here be the pictures!

The entire litter.









Standard coated babies









Rex babies









another litter shot.


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## MoonfallTheFox

I love the markings! SO cute!

That back and white rex with the triangle on its face... you may be mousenapped.


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## Shadowrunner

That one is a little buck. <3 It's almost a perfect little triangle too.
It has a few splotchy spots above the tip and a little connected snip of white on his chin too.


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## Stina

> Never say never, you never know what kind of mutation you'll have next xD
> Might be one in five billion but it would still be possible


Sometimes never really is true...and in this case, it is true, 100% of the time...at least with mammals (and i'm pretty sure with any vertebrates). Scientifically, there is no way possible for an animal to have fully functioning organs of both genders. Its not even a one in five billion chance...it can't happen.

Also the few situations where 2 sets of gonads may occur will never be a genetic thing...it is developmental flukes that cause such situations. Also in such situations...all 4 of those gonads would always develop as the same gender (or pseudohermaphroditic) reproductive organs.....even if they are male and female genetically. The same hormones will be affecting both sets of gonads, and, as such, they will all develop the same way.

oh and those are cute little bubs!!


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## Autumn2005

skinnybaby212 said:


> does this occur in humans? An old friend of mine was a triplet with 2 brothers...
> 
> 
> 
> no, it cant do, my dad has a twin sister and she has children
Click to expand...

Lol, I was about it ask if your dad has children.... :lol: :?  :roll:


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## Shadowrunner

New pictures! Craptastic camera produces equally crappy photos.
Still not sure about the colors on these guys.
Mom is chocolate, dad is a tricolor. He has black patches but also has brown points? 
I'm so not used to the c-dilutes it isn't funny.

Entire litter.









Standard babies.

















Rex babies


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## Shadowrunner

In the pictures they look chocolate to me (other than the two black pieds)
Would that be correct?


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## candycorn

Looks almost exactly like her last litter! Chocolate and black pieds. We now know what she carries for sure!


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## Stina

I see one or two that look c-diluted?...


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## Autumn2005

c-dilutes... the bane of self breeders! :nar


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## Stina

how are c-dilutes the bane of self breeders?......c-dilutes can be self. pew's are selves and are usually c/c...the most definitive c-dilute...lol Recessive spotting is what I'd call the bane of self breeders...lol


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## Shadowrunner

*shrug* the father is tricolor so it's entirely possible.

I just can't really tell exactly what colors they are yet. I'm too used to looking at black and blue mice.

Thanks so much again Tara, I Just love these guys so much.
I forgot how fun pied babies are. And Dexter is just the sweetest pile of goo ever.


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## Stina

I definitely see chocolate and black...but it looks there is also a c-diluted one or 2


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## Autumn2005

Lol, I meant that you can breed two mice of the same color, and then end up with hidden c-diliutes that you didn't want coming out in the litter. Sorry I don't express myself well.


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## Shadowrunner

I think your right now that I look at them closer. Two of them look close to the mother who is chocolate and the other two look almost like a weird shade of brownish grey.


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## MoonfallTheFox

They're lovely!


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## Shadowrunner

Thanks Moonfall. <3

I have more pictures. I'm pretty sure I've been asked to keep my giant mice out of the kitchen, but you know how these things go.


























































Also I thought it would be cool to mention I have a surprise in this litter.
The standard coated boy. At first I thought he was fox, but now I think he's a pied tan.
Belly shot<3 Forgive my nails, I've been doing chores all day.


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## Frizzle

Oh wow, is that a pop up book you've got them in!?


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## MoonfallTheFox

Those are some super adorable pictures. I love the background. <3

And adorable mice too.


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## AyJay658

What a fun way to take pictures  I love it! What is it called if a mouse has tan on its belly but it doesnt completely cover it? Mine have tan but a white splodge in the middle of the tummy.


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## candycorn

Oh what a fun surprise!!! They look lovely! That first rex is to die for! Good for you!!!


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## mousery_girl

yeah some of my mice have the corresponding tan markings unerneath... I don't really like it :? it looks werid on my blue!


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## candycorn

mousery_girl said:


> yeah some of my mice have the corresponding tan markings unerneath... I don't really like it :? it looks werid on my blue!


Ugh, I am sorry. But no fear...I have incredible blues coming your way soon!


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## Shadowrunner

I'm keeping that girl for sure. 
She's one of my favorites, although her rex brother has bigger ears.

I actually like the pied tan. First of his kind in this house.
It's a shame he isn't brighter but I didn't expect him at all so I'm still delighted.

Oh Yeah! Yes and no frizzle.
It's from a old Christmas activity book I found in my grandmother's attic. 
I brought it down to make the paper birds and fell in love with the rooms too.
I'm thinking about building a doll house room specifically for taking baby pictures.


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## Autumn2005

This is SO CUTE!!!!!! I love the background and the babies playing all over it... It reminds me of something from Winne the Pooh!


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## Shadowrunner

They like to run under the table x'D 
They are so tiny. But my mother pointed out that since she had 17, they might be just a little premature.
Kind of like how human preemies take a while to catch up.
Perfectly healthy, just small so I'll be keeping an eye on them.

I'll have more pictures up soon.


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