# New colour in my shed



## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Today when I was doing my mouse rounds I found these strange coloured mice!! Well strange to me :lol: 
Not had this colour crop up before, at first I thought maybe dove but they have black eyes :? 
Any suggestions?
By the way Mum is Choc tan broken and dad is Cinnamon broken. I took a couple pics, let me know what you guys think  
























Cheers xx


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Looks like a lilac and a lilac agouti to me...

Sarah xxx


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

What the ? Wihout bieng literal, where did they come from?


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

By the way what about the one on the end next to them?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

It just means both the chocolate and the cinnamon carry blue! Willow will be so jealous 

The orange one is probably an argente.

Sarah xxx


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

They are only ickle pet type mice  
Lately my pet type are throwing out some wicked mice, do you think if I feed them miracle grow I can pass them off as show type!! hehe


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

no but you could breed them bigger lol

on another note there tails are pink strange coz my lilacs is the same as his body. these look very light too unless its the flash i'd be horribly temped to say these are a brocken and self silver only very dark


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Do I do that by breeding the biggest from litters together?


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

yeah you choose the biggest typest out of the litter and breed them together, if you have a show type choc you can also out cross and quicken it up though it can be tricky getting the colour back and will prob take a few gens


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

you can get black eyed silver so i was told by willow. but because of the choc parent i'm going to say lilac very pale lilac


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

I was thinking about introducing my broken gene to my show mice. If I put a broken pet doe to a self show buck and a broken pet buck to a show self doe then breed the offspring to each other they will all be broken....i think?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Why would you want to do that? (I'm asking seriously...)


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Why is it that I have been trying to breed for lilac for nearly a year now and still haven't got any... and people keep having it crop up by accident??? :shock:

P.S And I agree with Jack... don't be messing up the show lines (Or at least I wouldn't)... if you truely feel the need to experiment (I know the feeling) then do as a very small side thing, maybe one litter. And use a show buck, not the does.

W xx


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

awww poor willow in all fairness willow they are pet type lol you can have my buck if you like.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

WillowDragon said:


> Why is it that I have been trying to breed for lilac for nearly a year now and still haven't got any... and people keep having it crop up by accident??? :shock:
> 
> P.S And I agree with Jack... don't be messing up the show lines (Or at least I wouldn't)... if you truely feel the need to experiment (I know the feeling) then do as a very small side thing, maybe one litter. And use a show buck, not the does.
> 
> W xx


It's Murphy's law, really. The same thing has happened to me. In the 2ish years I've been trying to get my true-breeding chinchillas on the ground, I've not gotten a single mouse who was Aw/Aw cch/cch. I've gotten Aw/a, Aw/A, and a/a, all with various combinations of cch/cch or cch/c, but never the "right" combination...yet. lol

I'm so glad I didn't start out with at, because would have caused even more disappointment!


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Honestly why?.....well our collection of snakes are growing and to be honest the bigger the mice the better. Most of our snakes eat adult pet shop mice. Otherwise it means breeding more rats and using their young pups, and these take much longer than mice. My plan is eventually to have just show mice because they are bigger so gradually all the pet ones will go. But I really love my moo moo mice and I don't know of anyone who breeds show broken. So I guess this was my solution


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

If you want to breed broken show mice, I'd suggest getting some broken show mice, not trying to create them. This is a variety that requires having many individual animals on hand so maybe that would be a good idea considering the snake? I don't mean this to sound harsh, but have you actually seen broken show mice? The term "broken" is used all the time on forums, and people think mice like those you've posted pictures of are "broken," but they're really not. They're just piebald. Broken show mice have spots which are more spread out, more defined, and less "muddy" than what you see in petstore mice. The NMC describes them as such "_should not have either Dutch cheeks, saddle or any markings which may be considered evenly placed...spots or patches should be well distributed all over the body and head, the more uniform in size, the better...must be a spot or patch on one side of the nose...broken marked mouse without a nose spot must be disqualified...nose spot defined as a spot on one side only of the nose, including the whisker bed._" As you see this is pretty exact and not what most people call "broken." To introduce something like recessive white spotting into a line of show mice would be a tragedy against the show mice, in my humble opinion. Of course, I _am_ biased. 

Edit: I had suggested searching the forum for "broken" but it appears it's a too-common word. I found a picture of a show broken (via a modified search) here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2802&p=21750&hilit=broke*+variety#p21750

You won't get that if you cross a petstore broken with a show mouse. You'll get show mice who have been ruined. I think by the nature of this place having a lot of show breeders you'll be discouraged but at the end of the day they're your mice and it's up to you. If you do cross them, you'll have to post pictures and let us see what happens!


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Okey dokey....
I am not that interested in breeding show brokens as you probably only get 1 mouse out of 500 suitable for show! That's a lot of mice. 
At the moment one of my show varieties I am working on is Rumpwhite which is quite enough marked madness for me thanks 
This provides enough unshowable excess for food but also provides a goal to work for.
By the way could you explain piebald, I have heard people use this term and would like to understand the difference. Actually while you are at it could you explain the different types of markings like piebald, varigated, splashed etc..all gets a bit confusing


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes, of course! I love explaining stuff! 

Piebald (or "pied") is the general term for white spots on an animal. There are piebald mice, rats, robins, snakes, horses, and even people. All animals with white spotting can be called "piebald." This Wikipedia page gives a brief overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piebald When in doubt, it's safe to say a mouse with white spots is piebald.

Broken, Even, Variegated, Rumpwhite, Belted, Banded (and perhaps others I've forgotten!) are specific terms for white spotting laid out in the standards of mouse clubs. They are all used to say how a mouse is _supposed_ to look.

Genetically, Broken and Even are usually both s/s. This is the most variable kind of white spotting, as it can show up as just one unpigmented foot, or an entirely white mouse.

Variegated, as laid out for the show standards, is a mouse whose white hairs are more interspersed. I don't breed marked varieties, but it is my understanding that variegated comes in "show variegated" and "what most people call variegated but which is not, really" as well. The same might be true for banded, belted, and rumpwhite but I don't know that for sure.

The patterns of white spotting have different modes of inheritance. Some are dominant, some are recessive. One (either belted or banded, I can't remember) is dominant with incomplete penetrance, and variegated is a homozygous lethal dominant.

To get back to the original question, people seem to use "broken" to mean "erratically-placed white spotting which does not fall into any of the other spotting categories," but that's not what's meant for people who breed broken for show. I personally never liked the term. I think it makes mice sound like they are somehow damaged or in need of an arm cast.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I have to admit to getting a little annoyed when I see a white marked mouse and people called it varigated, because its clearly not.

But I guess calling it varigated is nicer sounding than calling it a 'Lethal White' mouse... so I can understand it. hehehehe

W xx

*edit*
Go on here... it has a picture of what a varigated mouse should look like when bred for show =o)

http://www.thenationalmouseclub.co.uk/marked.php#thumb


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

OK so let me see if i have got it....
White spots of any kind are Piebald.
The terms broken, varigated, belted etc are terms used to name the placement of the piebaldness.....if you get me  
Also is piebald the proper term or Moo Moo mice?


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

I dont think you can say piebald is the proper name, it depends. If youre working from UK show standards then brokens are called brokens I have heard them refered to as piebalds in other coutnries particularly US and some areas of mainland Europe.

I have some surplus show broken bucks if you are interested, as with all marked show mice they are not of the biggest size and type, but very beautiful none the less. They are probably bigger and much prettier than some common old pet shop mouse. Just owning a show mouse doesnt mean you have a duty to breed for show, Im happy for yoou to take one of my broken bucks and do what you want with his genes. I have 3 bucks all agouti, Ill take some pics for you if youre interested, I think they may just be a tad too young to get them to the London Champs im afraid but ill see how they are growing could do it at a push.


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Now I am even more confused.....what should I be calling these mice?


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

She was referring to normal, pet typed, white marked mice Ian, in which case, they can be called piebald.

Broken is a show standard Gentia, as is Even marked, rumpwhite, banded, varigated etc...

W xx


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

The beauty of hobby mice is that you can call them whatever you want  The broken lilac can be a broken, a piebald or a lilac and white mouse if you like. Does the mouse particularly need a label?

I think everyone is right about them being lilacs, I always struggle to tell lilacs from the 'cece' dilutes as well in my mouse garage. But they do look a bit like some lilacs which I have, in fact I also have one lilac self and one lilac broken in a current hobby litter, very similar looking to yours.


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

So I can continue to call them my Moo Moo's....hehe  I don't think they care what I call them :lol: 
Also can someone explain how by putting show and pet together you would ruin the show mouse? Is it because the offspring would be no good for show. Does it mean ruin the line of show mice? Sorry for so many questions but if you don't ask you don't learn


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

The babies generally wouldnt be good enough for show no, or it would take years and years of selective breeding to get back to the quality of inital show mouse. 
However if you use a show buck then you can breed him to show types to create showable mice and hobby mice to improve hobby lines. I think someone has already said the best method is putting show bucks to hobby does rather than using show does to a hobby buck, this is because does can only have a limited number of litters and it may seem like a waste of a litter to produce a nonshow quality litter. However many breeders have surplus mice of fantastic type and size but may have other faults which exclude them from show breeding, these mice are what you need to cross into youre hobby lines. For example the big self mice sometimes have the fault of tan hairs around the vent which a breed doesnt want in thier lines but it doesnt really matter much when your aim iis to produce fantastic looking pet mice.


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

Look lilac ( I have a few lilacs with pink tails and some with tails the same color as the body)


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Thankyou, thats what I had thought  I wasn't sure what was meant by ruin the show mouse.
You see I have relitavely few show type mice and seeing as the primary function of the mouse shed is to produce food 95% of my mice are pet type. For the mice intended for show there is no question about keeping pet mice well away from them. But for the food side having bigger mice would be a great help as it will probably take me years to get enough show type to breed for show as well as food.
With regard to the lilac with light tails, couldn't it be a really crap broken marking that only managed to make it to the tail?


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

And yes Ian, I would be interested in your broken bucks, if not ready for Sep then what about Enfield in Oct?


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Im not sure about Enfield in October because Im planning to go to the Peterborough the week after. Having looked at my records the boys are 3 weeks in time for the London show which is a shame I would have felt ok about it if they looked strong at 4 weeks but 3 is just too young. The are handsome little things, ill take a picture for you tomorrow at some point.


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks x


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

All of those show standards for the different types of marked meeces are so incredible specific and nitpicky, which is fine for those that do shows, but I think that breeding marked meeces of a sort that you like is very commendable. I don't understand why anyone would object to your using a show type marked mouses to breed to whatever you have available. For me it's the process and not the end that matters, i.e., experimenting and learning so that you get ideas on what to do next. That's what keeps me going as far as my mousery is concerned. Every time I have a question, I feel excited and happy that I have another line of inquiry to pursue. I learn stuff, and I get to enjoy seeing the babies grow and mature.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I agree, moustress. It's important to understand that show/pet mixes will not win shows just to avoid disappointment later on, but if you're not breeding to win shows what does it matter?

I don't see that what goes on in one's own shed with one's own mice is anyone else's business. We all breed what we want for our own reasons.

Sarah xxx


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks guys for all your input. I can understand those show breeders who think that bringing a pet type mouse anywhere near a show type mouse is committing mouse breeding suicide  But I thought that the aim of breeding is to try and improve your mice with each generation. Why can't this happen with the pet type mice too? Before I had access to this site and all you lovely folk out there I had to work with what I had. Which was a few pet type and a couple of does that appear of be of show type....albeit poor type!
Well puting this tiny litlte agouti buck with a doe almost twice his size eventually resulted in babies. Now one of the bucks I kept is 100 times beter than his dad. His size, type, coat, colour, in fact everyhing. Even though he will never win a show he is still stunning when compared to dad. Now I have the next generation buck who is better than the last. There will be bucks and does from my show lines that for whatever reason won't make it to the show bench, so why not utilise them?


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Absolutely, I also use what I have available to work on my non-show mice (the abyssinians mostly). Unfortunately I only breed marked mice so the improvement in size and type is not as great as if I had giant self varieties at my disposal. I have now got a good lot of rumpwhite abyssinaians which are gradually improving in size and type.


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