# Breeding for size



## evansrabbitranch

I am not sure if this is the correct section so please accept my appology if it is not and let me know where to post this kind of thing for the future.

How does one, starting with the best they can find in their area. Work towards larger mice? My main female is shorter in length than the male but has the racy body type. The females I kept from their first litter are thinner than him but bulkier than her and all are longer than her. My setup is not ideal at this time. I am working on setting up so that I have pairs or trios instead of standard feeder breeding setup. My original goals were to breed beautiful friendly pet mice and chose snakes to help with population control.

I would love to work up to show standards. Searching for mouse breeders online I came up with nothing (other than one person in St Louis) as well as looking for mouse clubs in Missouri.

Anyway, my main question for now, is do you think I have made a good start towards better length? And how do I keep going?


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## jessierose2006

I would think it logical to keep the biggest from each litter breed them keep the biggest from that litter... etc


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## shiremice

I think the majority of show breeders will recommend that you start with show type stock versus trying to breed 'up' from petstore stock. The differences between pet vs show are so striking...it makes sense that it'd be a difficult, time consuming and costly effort.

I'm in the same boat, sort of. I want show type mice but there are no local breeders.  If you're willing to drive or pay shipping fees you might have more luck finding a breeder.


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## moustress

I agree, it would take a very long time to achieve show size, though you can breed somewhat bigger mousies with enough time, and careful selection. Prenatal and postnatal diet for the doe helps too. Give the doe lots of good protein and collagen like cooked egg, or soymilk, bits of cooked chicken and maybe tuna.


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## evansrabbitranch

Ok I am confused, I didn't really say I wanted to go for show mice from pet shop mice, I said I wanted to breed for longer mice. . . .It would normally make sense to choose the largest from each litter but my problem is that I seem to have an issue with only having access to short skinny or medium FAT mice. There are NO show mice near me. There are no shows. That i can find. Just LOTS of feeder and pet breeders. The majority of the feeder breeders I know of do not care about length vs weight (snakes are fed by weight at least corns are for the most part) and they only have PEWs. The pet breeders refuse to sell to me because they know I have snakes. So I am left with short-medium fat mice or short skinny mice. I HAVE to start from here. I can not afford to FLY in mice from other areas in the country or from outside the country. Telling me not to bother its too hard is not encouraging nor does it make me want to jump up and start a local mouse club. . . .Very discouraging.


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## evansrabbitranch

shiremice said:


> I think the majority of show breeders will recommend that you start with show type stock versus trying to breed 'up' from petstore stock. The differences between pet vs show are so striking...it makes sense that it'd be a difficult, time consuming and costly effort.
> 
> I'm in the same boat, sort of. I want show type mice but there are no local breeders.  If you're willing to drive or pay shipping fees you might have more luck finding a breeder.


I do have to ask though, how anyone got "show type stock" to begin with. Hard work wasn't it? They wrote out their goals, probably a small group of fanciers sat down, made their standards, started a club, and worked towards what they wanted to see in their mice. Right? With no options available to me what else am I to do but emulate those founding fanciers? Lots of time? I have tons of that. Corn snakes live up to 25 years of age, most of mine are under 4. I am 28. Money? Um, carefully done feeding mice is not expensive. Not compared to feeding meat rabbits. Not saying it is cheap, just not all that expensive either.

I can't afford to drive to St Louis much less to Indiana or Nevada. Or anywhere on the east coast which is where I have found listings for show mouse breeders. Can't ship either. So I have to dig in and do the work myself. I just wanted advice from experienced breeders not discouragement. :hurted


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## jessilynn

No one was discouraging you... You need to have a good aditude to get anywhere when you're dealing with mice.

To select for larger mice, all you need to do is cull the small babies. Let each mom raise 2-6 babies, and breed the biggest. Over a few years you should start to see an improvement in their size.


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## evansrabbitranch

jessilynn said:


> No one was discouraging you... You need to have a good aditude to get anywhere when you're dealing with mice.
> 
> To select for larger mice, all you need to do is cull the small babies. Let each mom raise 2-6 babies, and breed the biggest. Over a few years you should start to see an improvement in their size.


Um ok, sounded pretty discouraging being told to get show stock when I don't need show stock. It would be wasted here, with no shows.

Ok so what you are saying is I should set up my mice in pairs (easiest to track) and pull the smallest babies as they grow (which will work for my circumstances) and keep the biggest. But how do I get rid of the fat issue? I either have short sleek to skinny animals or long-ish but brick looking mice. Will I be able to tell body type as they grow too?

Please be patient with me, I REALLY want to try to get longer but not blocky mice in my lines.

You have no idea what its like to have someone look at your mice and accuse you of not giving enough food because some are thin while others are huge (in a not attractive way).


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## moustress

It took about 150 years for the English to get to where they and their meeces are today. Um, going to a show is one way to meet breeders who have show stock. It's expensive, but a few of the long established show breeders will ship mousies to you. That's how I got a hold of some show quality meeces eleven years ago, but it's stressful on the meeces, and most of them never managed to breed.

If I were trying to improve using only what was available locally. A nice thick tail with a good size set-on, which I bvelieve is the part covered with fur that should come out of the rear, nad to which the tail itself is attached, that and good thickness and length. Structurally, it's longer vertebra that make a longer tail, and that is probably true of the rest of the vertebra as well.
As far as long skinny meeces go, maybe you need to make some changes to the diet too, in order to improve the size and weight of your babies, starting before you pair meeces for breeding. My couples all get extra protein for a few days before they are placed together, and all during the mating process. The doe should get a lot of extra protein while pregnant, and foods high in folic acid. This should yield bigger babies.

Then you optimize their diet, choose the biggest, and do it all over again.

You could also canvas petstores within reach and see what they might have. I need to mount a mouse hunt myself here in Mpls. as I lost 3/4 of my stock in a space heater mishap, and one of my fave lines was nearly eradicated. It'll awhile to get back the quality of the stock I lost.

You might want to reconsider the breeder feeders. some of those PEW's have excellent size and great tails. I'm using one that I bought as a tiny baby, who is now about 8 1/2 inches long and not full grown yet. Her has small ears, but they're nicely shaped and free of wrinkles and folds. One of his harem just had babies, and they are looking pretty long for newborns.


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## jessierose2006

I dont know about where you are at but one of the feeder stores near me sells XL feeder mice they are white but when paired to your colored mice it would surely improve upon size and you would still get color.

PS- if you dont tell them about your snake and "play dumb" a little about mice people will sell you pet mice


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## Rhasputin

Jessie, lying about your intentions of using mice, is the whole reason that the US mouse fancy is so selective about giving their mice out. Encouraging someone to lie about their intentions, is -not- a good idea.
It will come back to haunt you.


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## jessierose2006

i didnt mean to Professional breeders....  I meant to the puny back yard breeders or the ones who "accidentally had a litter" and now dont want them all.   I mean i wouldnt lie to anyone on here of my intentions or anything but some one at a petstore or someone who had an oopsi litter and now wants 5.00 per mouse than yeah.


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## jessierose2006

The ones who are being stingy trying to keep all the business to themselves by eliminating selling to feeder owners or possible fancy breeders. EVEN if we take better care of our mice then they do.


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## Rhasputin

I see you point, but it's still not a good plan to lie about it. It just creates a lot of distrust in the mouse community. What's that saying? The road to hell is paved with good intentions?


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## jessierose2006

Exactly  Its always been paved with good intentions but i may have to take my bulldozer and mess up that pavement on my way


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## Stina

Casey, you've NEVER lied to a pet store employee?.......I know I have...lol


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## jessierose2006

buahahahahah let the bulldozing begin 

along the same lines will breeding white to improve, size, type, etc ruin the coloring of the babies (white hairs, spotting)


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## Rhasputin

I lied and said my savannah monitor didn't like white mice once, so they'd give me all the fancy ones. But I don't think that really changed the out come for anyone. :lol:


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## jessierose2006

:lol: Shame Shame 
That can happen- A guy i work with he had a redtail boa that only ate the black rats it would touch the brown or white ones.


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## Stina

lol

Using whites to increase size could definitely affect the colors of the line they are bred into. But it depends on what the white's are beneath the white...lol


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## jessierose2006

ummm... meaning what other colors they used in thier line? or the white hairs thing? 
I mean they could be half rat for all i know they are massive at this one petstore I will get one this weekend and post a pic of it compared to my current mice they will look like mini-mice lol


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## Stina

lol....a pew from a feeder line could be hiding ANYTHING under the white. they could be agouti, blue, chocolate, yellow, lilac.........It wouldn't introduce white hairs, but it coud lighten color and introduce completely unwanted genes to your lines. If you are working on say a blue line and outcross to a feeder pew...you could end up introducing cinnamon or something that could completely mess up the blue such as mealiness or brown shades.


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## jessierose2006

Ah i see. So i could use white to lighten up say my doves as she looks more close to blue than dove.


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## evansrabbitranch

Ok, I had to do this on another thread lol, lots of replies while I was away.

First, if I am coming across as rude it is NOT intended.
I am being straight forward and plain and simple.
Yes, someone said I was being rude here.

Mousetress: I don't WANT show stock, I just want
to work towards bigger mice. I don't understand 
why you keep bringin up show mice?? I do not have 
access to show mice so I am really confused by that.
Ah, ok I want longer bodies not tails. Maybe that
is part of the confusion? Since I have both fat and 
thin mice in the same cage all being fed the same 
food to where there is food left when I replace it 
the next day I am not sure a change in diet will 
work but I am reading what you are saying and 
taking it into consideration. Ah, but the babies ARE big.
Its when they reach maturity they either stop at
a certain size or the go a bit longer in the body then
widen. I have no mice longer than 3 inches in the body.
I would like to see 3.5 or even 4 inches in the body.
I am scoping the mice sold as feeders, same size
as those being sold as pets only they are pews. Seems 
I am in the middle of an area where tiny mice are 
desireble? 8.5 inches long? My longest is 6 inches!
And that is my fatty male. See? I need to work on length.

jessierose2006: Nope no XL feeder mice unless I want prefrozen
which kinda defeats the purpose lol. There are so few mouse breeders
around me that everyone knows I have mice, and well
they would sell to me but they have the same body type
and colors as me, they raise to feed snakes only.
I focus on color and personality, I now want to add
length to my breeding program. Snakes came after the mice.

Rhasputin: I never lie. I tell them I want breeder mice.
If they ask why I lay it out. Just as I am here. I 
breed pet mice and feed culls to my snakes. Unless they
also feed snakes some of their mice, I get hung up on.

Stina: I have told EVERY pet shop what the mice are 
for and NEVER had them not sell to me  They just 
have me sign a health waiver saying since it is for 
eventually feeding a snake they have no obligations 
to replace it if it dies with in the two weeks as 
they do for pets. I have friends at the Petco that 
check with me when they get what they think is an 
"interesting looking mouse" in. I prefer to build 
bridges with brick than twigs if you get me 

Stina: About using whites to increase the size,
the whites around me are the same size as the ********.
They focus on the numbers born, not the size.
I try to stay away from pews because I do not want to
work with marked or broken or varieated mice at this
time, just solids. pews are most likely to hide pattern
gene compared to solid mice. At least in my experience.

jessierose2006: Can I stay over at your house one night
so I can go to this store and get the collosal mice?
ALL the ones sold around me are TEENIE! I would have a 
REALLY long round trip drive though ha ha!

To wrap up, I guess I should go post in nutrition
and ask how to feed my mice to promote size. Going there
now! I know I can deffinitely improve diet.
I just need to learn how! Thanks guys!

I do appologise if ANYONE thought I was being rude at
any point of this discussion, I swear it was not meant
that way.


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## Stina

I didn't mean lying just about mice to pet stores.....a lot of pet store employees have no idea what they or talking about and/or think they are all high and mighty and know everything and if you don't agree with what they think is "right," they won't sell to you. I've lied to pet store employees about how I was going to keep fish I was buying as they believed they needed more than they actually did.... I have little to no trust in _most _pet store employees and unless I think they actually know what they're talking about I will tell them whatever i need to.


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## evansrabbitranch

Gotcha. At this one petco I have convinced them of a few things so that some of the critters are better cared for but some things they have to do as it is corporate policy. I made friends with the pocket pet workers and they let me know when neat critters come in especially mice. I don't lie to other mouse breeders either, if they ask I tell the truth. I breed pet quality mice for myself and control populations with corn snakes. I usually get hung up on or yelled at once I got smacked for being heartless lol. She stormed off when I laughed about how bad she was taking it that snakes had to eat too ha ha!


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## jessierose2006

where exactly do you live? Would you want me to find out about pet shipping you a few mice? Ill pay for the XL mice they arent too expensive plus i have to get a few small mice for my snake. I dont know what colors you have but i could possibly try to send you 2 XL whites and maybe 2 colored ones if see a color you dont have as for breeding in and getting brokens thats kinda a chance you take with any petstore mouse just cull the brokens and keep the selfs.

PM me and let me know if you are interested i will start researching ways and cost of shipping them to you.


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## jessierose2006

*whistle*

umm scratch the whole shipping... 
http://www.afrma.org/shipping.htm

check out the above site its like over 300.00 to ship a few mice.


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## Jack Garcia

This may not be a popular answer since you're breeding for feeders, but the best way is to breed toward a larger-sized mouse is to cull heavily (remove many of the babies from every litter) and to feed high-quality, human-grade (thus expensive) foods which are high in protein. Then breed only the largest babies to the largest babies, over and over.



evansrabbitranch said:


> I would love to work up to show standards. Searching for mouse breeders online I came up with nothing (other than one person in St Louis) as well as looking for mouse clubs in Missouri.


It will take you at least a hundred and twenty years if you try to work to standard using pet store mice. I am not trying to discourage you, but I am being serious.

That's how long it's taken us to get mice up to the place they are now. And even if you decided to try to breed to standard using petstore mice and lived 120 more years, by the time you got there with your mice, imagine where the show mice of now would be. That's why, even though in theory it's possible to breed pet store mice to standard, in practice it's actually quite impossible. It's the same goal as trying to get a pack of wild wolves to look identical to poodles. If you had thousands of years and lots of lucky accidents, you could do it, but in practice there's really no way.

The only reasonable way you will get close to standard is to decide to invest in getting show mice from a breeder. This can be expensive, though.



jessierose2006 said:


> *whistle*
> 
> umm scratch the whole shipping...
> http://www.afrma.org/shipping.htm
> 
> check out the above site its like over 300.00 to ship a few mice.


This is really quite cheap. I would be surprised if you could do it for under $500, by the time you factor in travel costs, the cost of fuel, and so forth. Some of us have chosen to pay thousands to ship mice! I know some folks who paid over $5,000 USD. 



Rhasputin said:


> Jessie, lying about your intentions of using mice, is the whole reason that the US mouse fancy is so selective about giving their mice out. Encouraging someone to lie about their intentions, is -not- a good idea.
> It will come back to haunt you.


This is exactly right. Thanks for posting it.


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## jessierose2006

$5,000 :shock: 

Of course i know people pay $15,000 for a snake so i gues im not surprised.

Maybe we could do a mouse train from here to MO. :?:


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## evansrabbitranch

I probably won't ever get them to show standards, but at least they would get bigger  Ok so scratch show at least for now. I might be moving to CA in 2 years, depends on my brother. Are there breeders in CA? I had no idea mice were so slow to change through plain breeding. :shrugs: that's ok. As to breeding "for" feeders, no I am not. Can we please understand that at least? I got into mice for the colors. I got into snakes so I did not have to stop breeding due to lack of space and sales. AKA population control. . . If we find anyone who has access to better mice who happens to be coming down to MO at any time in the future I hope folks could let me know, would be glad to pay to have better mice brought, but can not afford to ship mice. If I make plans to go to another state I will post that I would like to know if there is anyone in the area I am going to. Depending on how finances work out I may be in OKC in May. Anyone near there I should look into?


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## jessierose2006

I plan to experiment with the XL feeder mice. as Willowdragon brought up a point about them being on additives or hormone changers to make them bigger that may not actually affect mouse size from litters. so i will let you know how it goes.


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## evansrabbitranch

LOL, mice on steriods, kinda funny but kinda not. . .Do please let me know how it goes I find it very interesting.


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## Jack Garcia

California is larger than most countries, so it depends on where you go in California. In Los Angeles there are some excellent breeders.

There is no one near you who will adopt to you that I know of. You might still check feeder forums, though. We stay pretty segregated as a whole so there may be people close to you who could help you out -- I just don't know if there are or not.


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## jessilynn

What part of CA are you moving to?


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## evansrabbitranch

Northern, I think near Kensington or something like that, will have to ask my brother, it will be about 2 years from now though.

Jack: Nope, no one near me who has remotely better mice will sell to me. It does not matter that I do not only breed for snakes, it only matters that I have snakes. Problem I see with that is some of the same people have snakes. :roll: I figure I should be able to find someone with mice at the herp expos. Never been but this is a good reason to go and check. Sometimes they get people from other states with all kinds of stuff and I have heard that sometimes there are people with live mice for the larger snakes that refuse to eat anything but live.

I do not like the fact that you are automatically JUST a feeder breeder if you feed your culls to your snakes. . . :x Or even OWN snakes at all. Its not fair.


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## Jack Garcia

There's a large reptile/herp show that travels between Kentucky (where I just moved from) and Indiana. I forgot the name of it, but I don't know if it goes all the way to Illinois or Missouri. It might. There, only one person is contractually allowed to sell feeders so if you want mice from anybody else, you have to contact the folks in advance and arrange pickup somewhere else. It has something to do with the way they make their money. Other reptile shows are different, so it would help to check first, regardless. I've only been to a few, and each time it was just to look around, but at two out of three only one person was allowed to sell feeders and they had mostly PEWs.

The reason many people with show mice more often than not don't adopt to feeder breeders is more complex than it might seem. In some cases it's a fear/distrust/disgust of snakes, for sure. In my case, though, I live with three snakes (none of them are mine), plus a zillion other reptiles (grass lizards, California horned toad, bearded dragon, and probably others I'm forgetting) so I do like reptiles. But the mice I produce have waiting lists and I'd rather the mice go to ECMA-affiliated show breeders who will continue the lines in as pure a state as possible and breed them to ECMA standards as correctly as possible so that my work and others' work is not lost in incorrect pairings. This usually excludes breeding snake food, by default. That's why I say it's more of an implicit policy than an explicit one. I think this is the case with a lot of others, too. We don't _dislike_ snakes or snake fanciers, but we give preference to fellow show breeders who've been around a while and share the same goals, and show breeders don't have as many mice to go around because none of us produce anywhere near the number of animals that feeder breeders or wholesale breeders (or whatever you'd call them) do.


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## evansrabbitranch

Funny because I have been called a beast and hit for asking to buy mice for my lines. Must have just been dealing with idiots. Never met anyone in person who shows. NONE of the breeders I have ever spoken to has shown and I did ask. I was told mice are NOT food and until pet food companies make non-mouse food for snakes they should not be pets. You Jack, are the first show breeder in MO I have ever had the pleasure to speak to. The other breeders I have met breed for pet and personality. Not show. Most had never heard of mouse shows. I have known of mouse shows for a while now, at least 4 years now. Though I have no clue where or when they are held.

Someone once told me to cross a mouse with a rat. I always thought rats would eat mice if given the chance (no clue where I got that), do you think its true or phooey?


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## Jack Garcia

Rats and mice belong to different genera (so are thus unable to hybridize), and will kill each other, usually culminating with the rat eating the mouse.


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## minibears

GO EVAN!, welcome to the predicament we face in aus, no show mice and no imports, we have no choice but to breed for big and better, our fancy is still new but we are getting there.


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## Stina

> was told mice are NOT food and until pet food companies make non-mouse food for snakes they should not be pets.


That one always gets me..........I can understand being against live feeders...and I generally am, except in cases where the reptile absolutely will not eat prekilled...but seriously?...no mouse or rat should ever be food? Most of the time the same people who say that eat meat and/or have dogs and/or cats that eat meat!.....or even feed their mice dog food with meat in! How is a person, dog, cat, mouse, etc eating chicken, cow, lamb, etc any different from a snake eating a prekilled mouse?....seriously. Besides that the mouse is eaten whole....its NO DIFFERENT.

I would like to add that I do not breed to produce feeders and will NOT sell my animals as feeders....I also generally will not sell my animals to be used to produce feeders...UNLESS I have extra animals and really know the person they are going to (and trust that they will treat them as pets and will breed them reponsibly). Refusing to sell animals to someone that wants to produce their own feeders does not stop them from keeping reptiles, and probably won't stop them from breeding feeders...........it just makes them support mills....I don't see how that is beneficial to anyone.....except the pockets of the millers. Of course I say that as someone who does buy frozen feeders....lol (I find it difficult to euthanize perfectly healthy, adoptable animals...though I do cull litters). But if someone is willing breed their own feeders responsibly and is able to euthanize them themselves, then more power to them! I don't see it as any different from someone raising their own livestock for food....and good for them!


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## evansrabbitranch

Thank you Stina, see your point of view I completely understand. I am also glad to see someone else with sense on that subject (the mice should not be food thing) personall I do not want to offend anyone here but the way I see it is this:

Mice were created to be a meal for something else. It is a scientific fact. However, I do agree they make wonderful pets. At the same time one has 2 real options when breeding mice. 1. have one or two litters then stop untils some pass away and you have more room because there is no market to sell them, or it quickly becomes saturated. OR 2. Put your culls to good use, rehome the ones that aren't bad but don't fit your needs, and have a healthy colony of great mice.

Colony does not necessarily mean all in one cage, I mean that all your mice are the best of your best and are halthy and happy. I am first to admit I had been given very bad advice on feed. But I am learning here and feeding my mice better. Also learning about better breeding practices. Thanks to everyone here who have been kind enough to help me.


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## evansrabbitranch

minibears said:


> GO EVAN!, welcome to the predicament we face in aus, no show mice and no imports, we have no choice but to breed for big and better, our fancy is still new but we are getting there.


LOL, my name is Kathy. The name of my account is Evans Rabbit Ranch. Its actually the name we use for all our animal breeding because we started with rabbits and one day hope to have a ranch  It's all good though! Yeah, its tough when you have little to no choice of what stock to work with, if you want we could keep in touch on how the "struggle" goes so to speak lol.

Edit: Meant to add that Evans is our family name ha ha.


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## Jack Garcia

Nah, mice were not "created" in isolation for anything. The process of selective breeding that we do every day is just a continuation of evolution by (now not-so-natural) selection which has taken place for hundreds of millions of years.


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## evansrabbitranch

Jack Garcia said:


> Nah, mice were not "created" in isolation for anything. The process of selective breeding that we do every day is just a continuation of evolution by (now not-so-natural) selection which has taken place for hundreds of millions of years.


Never thought of it that way. It's a great point of view, but you have to admit in nature they are pretty much prey. Well, I have my main goal in mind, I will keep the largest from each litter that also match my color goals to try to increase size in my mice in general. I know I won't see show mice in my lines but I can at least increase the size of my mice a little and that is what I want. Thanks everyone. I saved a pic of a show mouse next to a feeder/pet mouse so I can see the differences. It will help in choosing the best mice in my litters for future breeding.


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## jessilynn

evansrabbitranch said:


> Northern, I think near Kensington or something like that, will have to ask my brother, it will be about 2 years from now though.
> 
> Jack: Nope, no one near me who has remotely better mice will sell to me. It does not matter that I do not only breed for snakes, it only matters that I have snakes. Problem I see with that is some of the same people have snakes. :roll: I figure I should be able to find someone with mice at the herp expos. Never been but this is a good reason to go and check. Sometimes they get people from other states with all kinds of stuff and I have heard that sometimes there are people with live mice for the larger snakes that refuse to eat anything but live.
> 
> I do not like the fact that you are automatically JUST a feeder breeder if you feed your culls to your snakes. . . :x Or even OWN snakes at all. Its not fair.


I live about 1 hour from you, and I breed show mice. In 2 years I would probably be ok to give you some show mice. I dont care what you breed them "for" as long as they are well taken care of


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## evansrabbitranch

Are you in CA or MO? I got confused lol! Trust I will post when I move to CA as I will have to start all over anyway. Too hard to move the critters into CA. The rabbits alone would need individual health certs, no clue on the mice. I figure I get there I can invest in good quality animals to start with. So having people in CA that would sell to me when I get there would be great. Are there shows in CA? I think I would show and strive for show mice if there were shows.


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## minibears

evansrabbitranch said:


> LOL, my name is Kathy.


My names kath too! :lol:


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## jessilynn

There are shows in Riverside CA. Its about 8 hours away from you.


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## evansrabbitranch

Um, California is a lot more than 8 hours from me. I am in Missouri planning to move to CA in about 2 years lol.


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## jessilynn

I ment 8 hours away from where you're planning to move  And I am in San Jose, Ca.


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## evansrabbitranch

:lol: Gotcha, sorry!


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## windyhill

Im in Missouri  Im close to St. Louis


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## Autumn2005

I'm in CA in the LA area... mine are just pet stock but I've been to the Riverside shows. It was smaller than I expected, but I liked it! See you in 2 years!


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## sugarmice

Stina said:


> I didn't mean lying just about mice to pet stores.....a lot of pet store employees have no idea what they or talking about and/or think they are all high and mighty and know everything and if you don't agree with what they think is "right," they won't sell to you. I've lied to pet store employees about how I was going to keep fish I was buying as they believed they needed more than they actually did.... I have little to no trust in _most _pet store employees and unless I think they actually know what they're talking about I will tell them whatever i need to.


Totally agree with this! I hate the pet store staff near me, they are so frigging rude and think they know it all, when clearly they know nothing.


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## Autumn2005

The local stores by me all know me by sight, if not by name. If I'm at a new store, sometimes they won't sell to me if they know I'm a breeder. So I'll say that I'm just looking for pets. Sometimes I tell them that I'm involved in a "genetics program" let them take that how they will! A lot of them don't care, but on occasion someone is interested when I tell them how that cinnamon mouse is related to the chocolates and agoutis around them. Mine local stores tend to carry a lot of pew though.


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