# Helping brindles with body type



## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I am finally getting my brindles to come out with the colours that I wanted. After trying and trying and trying with these guys. 
Score!
I'm still working on the colours a bit, but I'm wondering...
What is a good mouse to mix with my brindles, if I'd like to improve body type on them? The reason I don't just go out and grab a brindle with a nice body, is that it's just .... it seems they are non existent around here. So I'd like to try to breed it into my line, from another colour.
I was hoping to get something at the October rodent fest, or maybe something from Jack, because I really adore the body types on some of his mice. 
Something that won't interfere with the colour too much, but that will be easy to find.

Any thoughts?


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

From what Ive found, it doesnt really matter what color, just find something with good body type and go from there.
Ive gotten good results with breeding my brindles to my blacks, but my blacks have good body type.
Ittakes work to get a brindle with good body type since they all are prone to getting big.
A good PEW is a good choice if you know its not carring agouti or some other color you dnt want (unless you want agouti brindles)
Ive been working on breeding healthier brindles, its hard but the end result will be worth it.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

I think I heard somewhere that breeding a big type-y PEW is the easiest way to incress your mice's types...


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I was thinking PEW at first, but maybe a black would be a good idea too. 
Maybe I could get a black, and a PEW, so that I could mix them both into the line. And even have them for other breeding projects aswell.

I'm slimming down my stock right now, and focusing on perfecting my lines that I'm really interested in.
Frizzles, Rexes, and Brindles. 

My brindles are the ones I'm the most proud of so far!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

No! Don't use PEW to improve anything except for bone or other PEWs. This is because PEWs are often something nefarious underneath. For example, I have some English show PEWs who are overall pretty excellent mice. However, they're homozygous umbrous. When bred to agoutis (a mistake), they improved type significantly but introduced umbrous and the agouti was ruined. Four generations later and they're just as bad as they were starting out with.

Since PEWs are bred without regard to color, they can literally be almost anything "underneath" the PEW. You could be inadvertently introducing blue, tan, variegated, other unknown modifiers, or whatever else to your brindles that can ruin their color for generations/years.

Whatever you use, it does matter what color it is. I'd only use well-typed agouti or cinnamon. Both these varieties have good potential (there have been plenty of BIS winners with them) and both call for a warm, spicy red-brown coloring (especially cinnamon).

There has been exactly one brindle to take BIS that I know of. You can see a picture here:

http://www.afrma.org/brindlemice.htm
(about half-way down the page)

That proves it's possible to improve type in brindles, but you have to be educated and deliberate about what you cross it to. Always work on type BEFORE color because if you don't, you'll have to start all over. It's like building a house--you have to build it before you can paint it.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Good point about PEWs.


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

yeah, thats why I said dont use PEW unless you know whats under it.
Ive heard of some people using PEW to improve other colors, but its alot more work.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

My ideal end result, is a broken brindle, with very clear striping, and a good body type. 
It's hard to explain my breeding 'patterns' i guess you could say, but I think I'll be able to work it out. I guess it would be a lot easier to start with type, and add in colour, but I think I can make it work.

I'm really trying to focus myself and get out of the mindset of 'breed all the colours!'. I've already made some really nice progress with my LHRexes, and I'd love for my brindles to be the next line to make the leap into good body type. 
Now, to find a really nice agouti or cinnamon at or before rodent fest...


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

I dont like agouti, so I avoid it which is why I use black, but if you like agouti, then thats a good choice to go with since agouti is dom and you dont have to worry about whats hiding under it like with PEW.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Even that example from the AFRMA is a bit on the chunky side, very, very big mousie over all. The first time I saw a brindled mousie I was just stunned! The wide spectrum and variety of mousie coats still amazes me to this day. I wonder how hard it is to breed brindles with stripes on the belly? I never went in for brindles in a big way, but I've almost always got a couple in my mousery, as they are just amazing.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

windyhill said:


> I dont like agouti, so I avoid it which is why I use black, but if you like agouti, then thats a good choice to go with since agouti is dom and you dont have to worry about whats hiding under it like with PEW.


Yes, you do still have to worry_ because_ it's dominant. Many things can hide behind either agouti or PEW, but in different ways. In agouti, you won't see the hidden recessives because agouti is dominant to many other colors (not all). In PEW, you won't see the recessive *or* dominant alleles because the PEW wipes out all the color. In both cases, the deleterious alleles are still there--you just don't see them. And not just the alleles themselves, but the different modifiers that come along with them, too. The difference between the two varieties when using one to improve type in a brindle line is that reliable breeders can usually tell you what is behind the agouti. They cannot necessarily tell you what is behind the PEW. And since the mouse would be used to improve type, one would hope they came from a reliable breeder! 

Black is not the best for a brindle outcross because blacks are bred to have as few yellow hairs as possible and the depth and intensity of yellow is what you actually need to breed toward on brindle. Also, blacks are generally smaller.

Again, I refer to building a mouse as like building a house. You can't take the leap from good color to good type without in some ways starting over. This is because color is less consistent than body type on any mouse. Once you get good type set in a line, it's easier to modify the shade/hue/colors. In other words, it's easier to paint the house once you've worked hard to build it. It's easier to re-paint the house than to re-build it. If you do it backwards and work on color first, you will have to re-work on getting good type set in (tearing down and re-building the house), and you will lose all your work on the color since it is less consistent to begin with.

Concentrating on breeding the color first, or the color only without regard to improving type (often under the guise of "breeding for pets") is the easiest thing to do, but not necessarily the smartest, if your goals are to have nicely typed mice which are good representations (color-wise) of their variety.

This is one reason PEWs are so popular on the show bench: you don't have to "paint the house" at all. You simply devote all your energies to working on excellent construction. Everyone agrees that it's much better to have an excellently constructed house which is the wrong shade than an inferior, shoddy house that is the perfect color.


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

Most of myblacks are as big as my others, but they have alot of yellow hairs since I dont always breed for black. But that makes sense.
When I breed for black, then like you said, they are smaller and less yellow.


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