# Poor Siamese?



## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

I have someone who has contacted me seeing if I am interested in buying one of their male Seal Point Siamese. The points are less than ideal in terms of shape and color darkness, however their parents and older litter siblings do have some nice, if not perfect points.

As this breeder is some distance from me, I thought I'd ask a few questions before bothering to make the trip.

1) Do Siamese and Himalayan points truly darken with age, as the breeder claims?
2) Is it possible to improve the darkness of those points in subsequent generations? (All the information I could find listed that Chocolate should not be crossed with, due to further dilution possibilities.)
3) Is it possible to selective breed for the shape of those points.

It is also one of the Satins I've been trying to acquire, if that gene is of any relevance.

Thanks in advance.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

1) yes the do get some what darker with age, I'll take a pic of my old buck so you can see the diff. but I find the most change is when they go from babies to adults then again when old. so in my experience I go by how they look at 12 weeks, and when there old there points look there best with poor siams.

2) yes you breed to black to darken the points, I've noticed slight progress with each black breeding. I'll get a pic of mum and her best daughter from a black for you.

3) don't know about shape but some I've had at first had every small paints and they seem to be getting bigger but I think that is more down to them getting darker.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

photo of my boy when he was a young adult









and now he is an oldy









He has gotten darker shading on the body but points basickly the same. so id say dont expect a poor siam to end up looking like a good one but shading will get darker when they get older.

Here is daughter on the left and mother on the right, farther is a black.









Points are a tiny tiny bit darker but the body sheding is whats improved with her, but her sisters are more like mum.


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Ty for the information.

All three (one Siamese, two Albino or PEW) I'll be purchasing are Satins.
And my second Doe should be expecting a litter entirely made up of self-blacks.

So I have a little more time and leeway to decide if I'm going to pursue a better Siamese through line-breeding, or just use him as a Satin Father.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

are the pew from the same litter? if so he could be Himalayan, there lighter than Siamese.

you could all ways use him in two lines.


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Yeah I was thinking it might actually be Himalayan, but am keeping with the labels the Breeder has on her photos until I see all three in person and they mature a little more. (Have now told her I'll take him for sure with the two girls I wanted, just for the fact that it wouldn't take as many litters to get the Satin into my other colors.)

It's a Breeder who breeds her own Feeders, but when they get "nicer than normal" mice they offer them out to people to buy as pets. Thus she doesn't keep a lot of attention to the lines other than breeding for health/size, just occasionally decides to breed two pretty mice together. She was unsure if the "Siamese" and the PEWs were related or not, as they've been separated into sexes now and mixed with another litter.

Oooh, and don't tempt me to try for more than a few lines at a time. Mousery running is getting as addictive as fish tanks were.

Due to the photo quality it's hard to tell for sure if the male is black or pink eyed, if the short haired female has a splash of color on her nose, the length of the two longer haired mice, et cetera.
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All rambling aside...
Since it is the Satin that I've actually been looking for, that's going to be my main focus and reason for buying them.
I'm sure the good, experienced folks here can help me determine their actual color variation when I return with them and get some quality photos.


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