# Advice needed - female introductions not going well!



## LittleBlueMouse (Dec 10, 2011)

Hello, I am hoping to get a bit of advice on how to introduce some new girls to my existing group.

I am trying to introduce two new babies, approx. 6/7 weeks old, to my four existing girls, two of which are about 11 months old and the other two about 9 months old. I introduced the younger two of the existing group to the older two about 6 months ago with no real problems apart from the usual chasing and squeaking, and they now live together happily.

So I have used the same methods to introduce the 6-week-olds to the group, except last time I did it on neutral territory whereas this time I tried to give the babies an advantage by doing it on their turf (something I read can help, when the newbies are outnumbered?). The older two mice of the existing group have been fine, interested in the babies but no chasing or fighting and in fact they are more interested in eating their food! But the younger two have been terrors, especially one. They get really worked up, seeking out the babies to chase, and jumping on them and scuffling with them, the babies are obviously terrified and I end up constantly having to remove the aggressors. I have been doing this for half an hour or so every night for the last week, and it's not getting any better, in fact two days ago blood was drawn from the tail of the smallest baby so I have now stopped all meetings completely while I decide what to do for the best.

The two babies are very small, much smaller than my other mice were at that age. It seems really unfair to them to have to go through all this nastiness, they seem much too small to defend themselves properly. Should I wait until they're a bit bigger, would that help to give them a bit more of an advantage? Now that blood has been drawn, is it likely that they will ever live together or should I just allow them to live on their own in peace? Or was introducing them in the babies cage a bad idea - would that give the older mice more to fight over (food, tubes etc) than the neutral territory?

Help!


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Wait until the babies are older is my advice.


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## LittleBlueMouse (Dec 10, 2011)

Thanks, that's my gut feeling too - the difference in size between the babies and the existing mice is just too much, and I worry for the babies getting badly hurt, I will try to feed them up a bit and wait until they are a bit bigger!


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

yeah i agree deff try agaihn when they have grown more. 
As the middle age pair have been the problem id try first getting the new pair in with the older pair. once they have settled pretend the middle age pair are new and introduce them to the 4 on netrule ground and see if that helps. Prehaps if they feel like there going into a new group it may make them a bit more warie and hopefully not want to start a fight.
But it copuld be you just have cow mice as i call them, i have one girl who will realy bully and nip newcomers for a few days befor settling.


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## LittleBlueMouse (Dec 10, 2011)

I think I will wait until they are a bit more equal in size rather than a certain age, since I guess the size is probably what's causing more problems?

Good idea to get them together with the older pair first, I hadn't thought of that, I might give it a try! For now when I get the other mice out I have the babies in the cage next to me, just so they remember that they are still around and maybe start getting used to them being there, they all get very excited though and climb all over me trying to get into the cage... Maybe that makes them even more frustrated as they can't get to them??


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## CathE. (Oct 12, 2012)

Size and age has nothing to do here at all, in my opinion. I have seen mice with a year and more age difference introduced on same conditions as equally aged and this hasn't changed a thing in the process.

Although does are known for being less territorial and aggressive, they do tend to have their moods too. Tails and ears are a _normal part to bleed_ so as long as there isn't any significant damage that could result in further complications, I wouldn't do a single thing and allow them to set the hirarchy whichever way they prefer to. Interfering will only make the process even longer an possibly less successful. Waiting for the babies to grow up will make you end up with stronger mice to fight even more aggressively. I can't see you wanting this?

It may sound dramatic and scary for you but all you have to do is _wait and observe_ whether nothing serious happens. And I mean - serious, like pulling whiskers out etc.
Be ready for a week or two of such fighting untill they finally settle down. Assuming you won't interrupt them. Believe me, does are loud and squeaky but they aren't THAT aggresive as bucks - they indeed can lead deadly fights.

Also, you could try putting them into a neutral territory for a longer time, like a day - just the bedding, water and food (given for an hour and then taken out -to avoid reasons for conflicts). Make sure the cage or whatever you choose for a neutral ground has no scent at all that the older mice would recognize.

After intro, the actual cage should stay as empty as possible for one more week so they don't start fighting over toys. Just bedding, a house (one to make them sleep together!), food and water. You can start adding stuff after a day or two if they behave nicely. If they don't - take it out and wait few mor days.

If none of this works, you can put a drop of vanilla oil on their butts to kill the natural smell.

And I'd like to repeat - do not interfere unless there is a serious injury on the way.


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## LittleBlueMouse (Dec 10, 2011)

Thanks for your reply CathE, but oh goodness, a completely different opinion, just to make things more complicated! I always heard that as soon as blood is drawn you separate, no matter what?!


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## CathE. (Oct 12, 2012)

Well, in my country it seems there are a bit different ways of dealing with stuff then. 

Mousey ears and tails have a _very_ solid blood supply so ANY, even the smallest damage, may cause the bleeding. So it's not always a sign of seriousness. 
As long as the blood is not dripping (literally leaving trails of blood on bedding), there is no need to react. These wounds will heal very nicely in a short time.

It's always good to observe what kind of offence does the dominant mouse use - some are just "informative" bites to show she's the stronger one, but some might take a form of strongly aggressive attacks, when the weaker mouse is visibly unable to run away or defend and is being held captive. These also shouldn't be interrupted untill you can see a mouse is really loosing her chances of survival.

Does don't fight till death (except some random, dramatic cases), it's always good to remember. Also, some mice have a tendency to panic without a reason, making you think like something's happening when there isn't a single sign of danger. I myslef have a little princess who is sqeeking whenever she wants something. I used to think she's a weak one beaing beaten but I have once witnessed she demands stuff this way (i.e. she squees extremely loud when she wants the other mouse to give her food). 

So, once agan - observation and a little bit more trust towards your girls, that's just how they roll. :lol:


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