# Detailed question about the male hierarchy



## Cereal Killer (Nov 23, 2014)

I have two cages, one with an about 8 month old alpha (the original father, in the main cage) and one with a 2 month old alpha (4th generation I believe). The old alpha has been challenged multiple times. My mice are all very healthy inbred and know each other.

What I noticed now after a while is that the males who end up not doing so well in the main cage with the old alpha do not smell manly at all (in a urine-alike sense). I have also observed, that the males hump each other against their will, seemingly to subdue each other and demonstrate power. The mice who smelled the most neutral, were also the ones who occasionally bit back. But there is only one mouse or so in each generation who even bites and they always bite the old alpha only. The old alpha mouse never ever bites, he fights without biting, but chases them around though and they get angry at each other regardless. But they settel their indifferences.

So, why is this difference in smell?

Since they are all genetically very much the same, I would believe that maybe the humping behavior is actually used for marking each others rear ends with urine. The mouse who is more successful at it will rank higher in the hierarchy. The mouse who refuses to give up will end up being bullied, since they carry no signature and everyone will take their chances with them.

It is just an idea I had that makes sense to my observations. Maybe you have observed something similar?

If it is true, you could prevent harmful fighting by extracting urine from the alpha male and putting it on the rear end of another mouse. So to speak make them admit defeat without fighting.

I have also found this interesting paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577770/ . As far as I can tell, it doesn't specifically address that mice mark each other's bodies with urine. Only that urine marking plays an important role in their social communication.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Bucks who share space, if they get along without killing one another, adjust to produce less of the musk. The dominant buck retains his musk levels, and yes, dominance humping and infighting of and among the more submissive is quite common. Groups of does can show this kind of behavior as well. It's fascinating to how males (or females) adapt to different situations, but it can be harrowing seeing the occasional injuries that inevitably occur.

I hope you have a well stocked mousie first aid kit.


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## raisin (Sep 22, 2014)

I had some similar hierarchy issues with my FEMALES. my dominant one chases and aggressively humps her subordinates. I haven't observed any pee marking. it is similar to how dogs flip each other over to show dominance. This happens a lot in my female tank. another sign of domination is grooming, though I also see this as bonding. a sign that a mouse is submissive is if they close their eyes to squint at the more dominant one (they might also do this to humans).

I have never felt the need to make observations on their individual pee smell, though that is an interesting tidbit. I've read that when introducing mice to each other, the owner should dabble vanilla onto their rumps and chins to confuse their individual scents from one another. I think that it should mean the same thing when putting pee from the leader onto the others, not because it makes the marked ones submissive, but because they all smell the same. But just in case it does make them submissive, this might not be the best way because you might misidentify the leader mouse and cause more fighting.

urine is very important to communication. It defines territorial boundaries and I believe can also tell other mice whether a location is safe or not. Poop also plays a role in identifying safe locations. They poop where they eat to tell others mice that if they are safe there long enough to poop there then it is probably a good place. I know that's a bit of a tangent, though maybe you'll find it interesting.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Meeces are largely ruled by their sense of smell and any preparation for putting mousies together has to give the odors a chance to be shared.

This, I have found, is very useful in getting pinkies that need to be fostered accepted by almost any mother who has pinkies of close age. I take some of the dirtier litter and some of the bedding from the tank they are going in to, and give the smell a time to settle on them. Then, I put in a yummy treat for mum at the other end of the tank, sneak the outsiders in under the ones already there, and, while the mothers sometimes look a bit puzzled, they generally get right down to cleaning up the new ones, as they will smell dirty, and by the time they've done that, the adoption is locked in.

This method doesn't guarantee survival, but then, any experienced breeder knows that you don't count your pinkies until they are furred


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

moustress said:


> any experienced breeder knows that you don't count your pinkies until they are furred


I like this, moustress! It can replace not counting chickens!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Thankew!


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