# Two dead litters in as many weeks, HELP!



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Well, I am having a bit of a sad time of it. Last weekend I experienced my first miscarriage with a mouse and it was the very worst kind-no living babies and a dead doe (she seemed fine up until an hour before she died)
Today, right now, my brindle litter is being born dead. Last night mom had a bit of yellow ooze coming from her opening with what looked like a piece of carefresh stuck on.
What is happening in my mousery? What do I need to change? I don't want to quit, I want to fight this problem. The temp change could be a factor but it's relatively stable down there the last monthish.
My last two litters went well except one of the moms seemed to retain a fetus for a few days. She did well and is currently very healthy, and so were her babies.

What do I do? I am getting pretty devastated.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Sounds like a run of bad luck; diet and environment are the only two things that come to mind, and I don't think you need help with that. You are well enough informed for me to want to suggest anything other than that. I hesitate to ask the ages of the does involved, but I'm pretty sure you already know about that....don't know what to say.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

the does were both under a year, first litters for both. diet just changed to a mix that i made, it seems to be better for them right away. the temp change could have more to do with it then i think...i am just sad and if it's just my time to experience bad luck, thats fine, but i wish there was something i could do.

She's about halfway delivered now, I think. I hate to think of my does living through these day long deliveries. All babies have looked normal so far, the parts of them that I find. Any chance that she's killing them as they come out? It IS her regular delivery day...


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

It's possible that she's killing them as they come out. I briefly had a doe who decided that was the thing to do. I'd suspect it's probably unlikely, though. The obvious question is: what's changed? If the temperature is really the only thing that's changed in the mousery, how much has it changed? Once it finally starts getting cold here, I have to keep a heater in our mouse room, not for the mice, but for the snapper who lives in the same room. I found that when the heater didn't work last winter (power out, someone unplugs it), my does with litters started to look poorly. They seem to be more susceptible to the temperature changes than the rest of the mousery.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Laigaie: You keep a snapping turtle as a pet? :shock:

th: Could have been the age, then; it's not recommended to breed a doe for the first time past eight months old. It's just like a woman having her first baby over the age of forty; it's just riskier over that age.


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

Is there any kind of illness that can cause things like this in mice?

The only reason I thought of that is Rhino can cause spontaneous abortion in horses. (I think it's rhino. I have a boy, so it wasn't a big issue to know that. LOL)

I wonder if there could be a similar disease in mice, which would explain the random dead litters.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Today the doe appears active and bright-eyed, but had sucked in sides. I read somewhere that is a bad sign, but I don't know why and what I can do about it. Does she need to be started on Baytril? Will that stress her too much?


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

Sucked in sides in ratties means pain. I'd give her baytril at least as a precaution.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Ugh. Someone just told me to put her to sleep but won't explain why. Can someone please explain to me just what is going on?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

She probably has an infection as a complication of the extended and interrupted labor. I'm not a vet, but it sounds like that to me. I have had does suffer through complicated deliveries that looked like they were maybe going to be okay, and I waited a couple of times, but it was no good. It just prolonged their suffering. Sorry.

Even starting her on antibiotics at this point would be pointless. If she sits with her eyes narrowed or closed, and her ears back, she's suffering. She may get to a point where she looks more alert, but likely she's just gone into shock and is beyond pain.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I've never had a mouse whose sides were sucked in recover,it's just an outward sign of something critical/chronic .Pregnancy is very dangerous for any female even humans despite modern medicine.If a dog gets a womb infection it's an emergency and a battle to save their life.Removel of the womb is essential.For a mouse just not practical,I can't imagine the pain of an infected womb and agree with the advice on euthanasia  Sorry.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

alright, i will check on her after work this morning. how disheartening...she was still eating after all. i think two things have changed since my last two litters...temp and hamd sanitizer brand. weight in on the sanitizer?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

tinyhartmouseries said:


> how disheartening...she was still eating after all.


isn't it just and although in terms of suffering it makes no odds, it's always a mouse/litter that was particularly wanted/needed.


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## Gill (Sep 16, 2011)

My original idea was to breed Siamese satins, but my first litter from my favourite doe was born dead, so I can really sympathise. My only consolation is that my doe seems to be in good health.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Jackie is somehow looking a little better this morning. She is still sucking her sides but her ears are up and her eyes are normal, not bulging, just bright. She's been eating, drinking, and running on her wheel....I am seriously on a fence here. I appreciate all the help, I REALLY do. Would anyone fault me if I tried a wait and see until tonight? I just don't know what to do, now. I feel so absolutely conflicted at this point. moustress, you said that sometimes they look like they will get better, but they always die? Is that what is happening?

On the other hand, I have two moms who are just barely pregnant and I need to ensure their safety. The heater is on and I am not using the strong hand sanitizer anymore-perhaps the alcohol fumes killed the fetuses? Both these does are around 6 months, so age will not be an issue here.

It seems like several of my friends have does that end up making it through, like you, Gill, though some breeders say their does never make it through. I wonder what it takes, within a doe and with the environment. I am trying to keep it as warm as possible without blowing fuses when I'm gone.

Thank you everyone for the help- It is completely wonderful, the response I am getting. Other forums have left me hanging about this and the situation is nerve wracking enough.


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## Gill (Sep 16, 2011)

I'm new to breeding, so am not the best person to give advice. However, if it was down to me, I would wait as the mouse seems to be improving. Can you keep Jackie in another room? That way, she couldn't infect the pregnant does.

My heart goes out to you; it's a rotten situation to be in.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

If what she has is pathogenic, ALL my mice have already been exposed as they share the same airspace. That is why I am leaning toward it being a personal issue with the mouse/mice.

Thank you for the well wishes...it's appreciated.


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

I'd keep trying, but that's me. It is your call- you know her best, and if you think she has even a little chance then don't give up.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I went in to check on the doe and she had lost 4 grams by my postal scale, so I did euthanize her. I saw that immediate decline in condition and knew what to do and did not waver. I think my ethics may have been called into question in this instance? I just wanted to let everyone know that I do give my sick mice a chance, if only for pet's sake, but watch their conditions very closely for any negative changes.
Upon necropsy, the doe had a deeply stuck baby. It's unlikely she would have been able to pass it.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

So sorry for your loss! It's always hard to make the choice, but at least you know the cause and that it was the right choice.


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

I wouldn't question your ethics at all for trying to help her.

RIP little one.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

Poor thing and poor you. Infections never feel good. Especially the ones that make you septic.
She won't be hurting anymore and you should take comfort in that even if it is only a little bit. What you did is part of being responsible and nobody will ever fault you for responsibility. *hugs*


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Your heart was in the right place,another time and place in future you will probably have a different outlook.Sorry for the outcome.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I just wanted to say thanks again for all the help during and after this event. Once again, this forum has proved invaluable. Time to look forward to new healthy litters from my two does.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm terribly sorry you feel that your ethics have been called into question. I don't think anyone was trying to suggest either way. The necropsy was a brilliant idea; it always hurts to not know what the outcome would've been.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

It's ok, L, I have gotten over that feeling and am just ready to provide for a few new litters and have some success. Thank you for the note!


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