# Two mice cage calculators give different results



## Estlyo

Hi.
I plan on having two mice, and I wish to eventually make them my own bin, with possible help from my uncle.
But for now, I saw a good deal on two Habitrail cages with tubes connecting them. One is the Habitrail Mini and the other is Habitrail Cristal.
I entered the size of only one cage in two calculators and one says that it is not suitable at all, while the other tells me around 2 mice... When I add both cages in the first one, it still tells me it is unsuitable.
Here are the two calculators:
1. http://www.cagecalc.de/start.py?conf=mice&lang=eng
2. http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/cagecalculator.cfm

Here are the dimensions of the cages according to Amazon:
42,8 x 42,8 x 13,6 cm (Mini) I sadly couldn't find it in inches, but it should be around 16.8 x 16.8 x 5.3 according to google converter lol
14.7 x 11.3 x 10 inches (Cristal)

What do you think guys? Would two mice fit in those two connected together? I've got mixed opinions about it so far...


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## Lilly

I would say it is likely big enough, although anything like wheels that come with will most likely be too small.

Having said that though if you can find one, something like a 10 gallon tank and a mesh lid is probably going to be cheaper and easier to clean than interconnecting tubes. Or just build the bin first and save your money (at least here habitrail is very expensive compared to a 10g or making your own).


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## Estlyo

Well these are used Habitrail that someone is selling, and she is selling them for a low price. I planned on reselling them once the bin would be ready. She's selling them for 30€. Where I live most tank comes as a full kit for fish so it makes it more expensive, around 40€ new, and used around 30€ also with full kits. I will consider a fish tank if I come across one alone and cheap though.

I hope the wheels are removable. I personnaly prefer saucer wheels to vertical wheels.


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## Lilly

Oh thats a shame, over here its quite easy to find the 10 gallons on their own, or get them and a screen for maybe 10-15 euro (or so google currency converter says!)


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## pro-petz

In the UK there is a minimum size by which the RSPCA will use a guide in assessing animal cruelty cases under the Animal Welfare Act 2006.

The sizes I quote here are the minimum for Laboratory mice and should be increased if housing pet or show mice.

Floor Space Per Mouse
Housed singly upto 30g 200 sq cm
Housed in groups upto 30g 60 sq cm

Housed singly over 30g 200 sq cm
Housed in groups over 30g 100 sq cm

Minimum height of cage 12cm

Checking government websites for the relevant sizes for lab animal housig will give you a more precise size for whichever country you reside.

I personally add 10% to the sizes for pet mice and 20% for show mice as minimum sizes.

The sizes of the cages you have given exceed the minimum requirements even allowing the extra space for the bigger show mice.


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## Estlyo

Thanks for the information!
When you say that it is even allowing the extra space for the bigger show mice, do you mean I could even have up to three mice according to the minimum in the UK?


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## Lilly

Well from those numbers if the mice you are going to get are not the big show mice it looks like 3 needs the same or less space by those standards than one alone.

Floor Space Per Mouse
Housed singly upto 30g 200 sq cm
Housed in groups upto 30g 60 sq cm = 180 sq cm for 3


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## Laigaie

Not saying I necessarily agree with the calculations, but to help interpret them:
Basically, minimum size for any enclosure should be 200 sq cm, regardless of the number of mice. As the number of mice increases past the normal group size for does (3), the size of the housing should increase. Up to three does would use 200 sq cm, four would go up to 240 sq cm, and so on.

That said, 240 sq cm is only 37 sq in, or a 6" x 6" box. For >30g mice (aka any reasonably healthy good-sized mouse), that's still only 7" x 7". Even by breeder standards, that's cramped! My mice are generally kept around 40-50 sq in a piece, with bucks housed alone or with up to three does. Does then are housed in groups of three to ten, depending on age and size of housing.

Looking at the cage calculators used here... *sigh* Places like The Fun Mouse are very very pet-focused, in the way of folks who argue you need 50 gallons of tank space per goldfish. The other site is German and says there's no such thing as "too big," which makes me want to use words that aren't appropriate for a public forum. For a virtually agoraphobic species like mice, yes, there definitely is a "too big!" Mice often get stressed, anxious, or panicky when left in large open spaces.


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## Estlyo

Thanks for the information about these websites!
I also read on the German one that you must keep groups of mice of the same-sex, but they failed to specify that males will fight if there is not enough space for them to each have their own territory, and even when they were from the same litter it is a risk.
I'm bad at math, so if I keep two mice in those two connected cages, do I exceed the calculations enough for it to be comfy? I don't want it to be neither cramped or too big.


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## Laigaie

Either of those two cages would be plenty of space for the two cages listed, yes.


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## pro-petz

Just to clarify the minimum sizes I stated were taken from government website. As pointed out the sizes do become confusing when dealing with groups of mice under 30g. This is probably due to the fact that the minimum sizes are intended for laboratory animals and will save the research facilities great expense if the sizes were changed. We can really only use the minimum sizes as a guide for the mice we keep and adjust according to the type we keep as they are generally bigger than the laboratory mice.

There will always be difference of opinion as to the minimum space required for any animal housed in cages. The RSPCA on its website has fact sheets regarding housing and care for many animals we keep as pets it does lack any dimensions for such cages.

If you are still unsure then using scrap paper cut into 15cm x 6cm to represent the size of a mouse and another the floor dimensions of the cage, placing the paper representing mice onto the floor and seeing if it looks crowded will give a better indication to how many mice you can place in a cage. Using this method reduce the floor space by 1 third to allow for enrichment items such as toilet roll tubes, food bowls etc.


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## Estlyo

Thank you everyone!
I went to get the cages and thought I'd sell them if they ended up being too small. They seem okay to me for two mice.
But the person sold it to me with bedding still inside, he said it was new, but when I arrived home I notice the cages still had food and water.

So anyway, even if he said it was new I decided to throw it away and clean the cages with some desinfectant. It went well in the first cage, but in the second cages at some point I saw some bits moving at random every time I touched the bedding and my boyfriend got scared and asked me to get the bedding out asap since he has a cat. I still don't know if it was really some kind of bugs or just static shocks. 
I put everything in the bath and filled it with hot water, then added some Dawn dish soap. I let it sit for a few minutes then I scrubbed it all (took me from 10h30 to midnight lol) then I rinsed it a bit and let it air dry for the night. This morning everything looks much nicer (some tubes were really dirty) but a friend of mine suggest that I used dish soap for the first wash, like I did, and then use desinfectant such as diluted vinegar for the second wash, and then rinse it 30 billions time (her words lol) and my mom says that a little bleach should be safe as well if I rinse it as much and let it to air dry for at least one week before I get mice.

So yeah my new questiond are: was those really bugs and could they have gotten to the cat?
and do I need to desinfect it now that I cleaned it with dish soap?


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## Laigaie

It depends on what the cage previously held.

Most rodent mites are the tropical rat mite, which only bites non-rodents when they're desperate. Probably they wouldn't get to the cat or you, but they'd be around to infest your new mice. No good. They could also have been grain mites, which aren't parasitic so much as they are annoying. They eat feed, and generate dust, and are annoying and itchy if they get on you.

I wouldn't worry about disinfectant if you've scrubbed it down and used dish soap *for the sake of the bugs,* but a bleach solution (follow the package directions for baby bottles or pet dishes) would be a great way to make sure there are no diseases left from the previous inhabitants.


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## Estlyo

The cages previously held mice, and before that on of them held a hamster. That's what the seller told me.

So I decided to use diluted bleach for the cage and the tubes, but I used diluted vinegar for the food bowls and the water bottles and then rinsed them a lot. Since I won't have mice before the end of the month, I was told it should be safe by then.
There was two wooden toys, so I put them into the diluted vinegar for a very short time, then scrubbed them and let them dry. Will that also be safe?

I haven't noticed anything about the cat or moving black dots since then, so I hope I did get rid of it. I read today that it could have been bed bugs hiding.
The seller was saying that it was ready to be used, but I think people should always clean thoroughly second hand bought pet items, you never know what the previous pet could have had.


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## Laika

Laigaie said:


> Looking at the cage calculators used here... *sigh* Places like The Fun Mouse are very very pet-focused, in the way of folks who argue you need 50 gallons of tank space per goldfish. The other site is German and says there's no such thing as "too big," which makes me want to use words that aren't appropriate for a public forum. For a virtually agoraphobic species like mice, yes, there definitely is a "too big!" Mice often get stressed, anxious, or panicky when left in large open spaces.


I am still learning so I'm not sure about the mouse thing, but as far as goldfish the issue is a bit more complex. "Comet" goldfish are large, long-bodied, and active fish originally bred to live in ponds. So they need more space to move, especially when they reach full adult size of a foot or more. Fancies are round-bodied and less active and fit just fine in about twenty gallons per fish. The one thing where fish differ from mammals is that ammonia buildup can't just air off with ventilation, so ammonia and other waste build up in the water. Overall large gallon and filtration requirements for goldfish have less to do with space and more to do with their large size and inefficient digestive system. Otherwise their environment quickly becomes toxic and can cause stunting and a drastically shortened lifespan. (In a fish that can live a decade or two with proper care, a few weeks or a handful of years is pathetic.)

I hope it doesn't seem derailing to mention it, but in this case the call for size does have a reason!


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## WoodWitch

The needs of a goldfish do not reflect the needs of a mouse in any way, but it was interesting to read


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## Laigaie

I knew some day that phrase would haunt me! I use it when talking about space "requirements" of mice, chickens, quail, etc. to reference the folks who take a reasonable precaution and exaggerate it well beyond what's necessary. For many species, more space is better. For mice, that couldn't be further from the truth.


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