# Hermaphrodite Mouse



## Gill

In the middle of November I had a litter of four Siamese pinkies. At first I thought there were two of each but, as they started to fur up, three had obvious nipples. A Mouse Train was organised to start on December 8th as I had a number of mice to rehome, and the three does, along with their mother, were destined for Wales. However a friend who transported the mice to Bristol contacted me to say that I had included the buck by mistake. So I had a good look at the one still here - no, definately a buck. I put it in with another very young buck as a temporary measure until I could get it a cage of it's own. Problem - the buck attempted to mate with it. Then I put it in the cage with Minnie and the fleas, and it tried to mate with Minnie. Now it's in a empty breeding box.

Anyone want an AC/DC Siamese mous????????????????


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## moustress

Dominant bucks will do that to a subordinate buck....and the other.


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## morning-star

I had a 'genderless' female once. if you post clear photo's of it's bit's I'll probably be able to tell you if it is or not.

(I also have a 100% track record of sexing 1-3 day old pinks :lol


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## moustress

msm: wow!

...I still think it sounds like a normal randy mature young buck.


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## Velvet_Meece

I had a hermie banded once, without a doubt female and later dropped testicles but still very much female in every other way.


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## morning-star

Mine was a female with a sealed up hole -sadly she also got tumours in the same place that testicles would be which grew large which meant we had to put her down.

I was reading in a book called 'mice all over' (it was a study on wild mice and their social development within a grain/flower storage done in the 50's) and there study showed if they left mice in a limited space and let them breed mice would hit a point where they just produced infertile females with a sealed over vagina so they couldn't breed because of the lack of room/limited territory and food .


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## candycorn

I had a dog once that was a hermaphrodite. She looked pretty female on the outside, but when she would not breed, I got her as a pet from the breeder and had her spayed. When they opened her up, she had all the parts both male and female. Worst of all they charged me double! Jerks! LOL! 
Anyway she outwardly looked female and showed no signs of mounting or marking. *shrugs* I think it would only be Xrays or sugury to find out the real truth on that.


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## Gill

Fraid my camera isn't very good on close-ups, but it has nipples and very obvious testicles. Also, just to make sure, I introduced it (carefully supervised) to it's father, on the principle that an adult buck would fight an all male intruder. Bubble chased it around having a really good sniff, and then attempted to mount it. At which point I separated them.

I have been told that hermaphrodite mice can be fertile. Does anyone know if this is true? If not, then I can happily home it with another buck.


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## moustress

Yes, unfortunately it is true. I had/have a line of tris that produce 'tweeners'. I've had several unplanned litters as a result, from meeces that were really too small. when a girl is identified with a boy and separated at five weeks, and then gets pregnant in the next month or so, that, way way too early...better than the alternative, though, I guess. I HAVE had a young buck end up with a tank full of five or six girls resulting in a couple of unplanned litters, but those aren't always off of immature does, so that wasn't a huge problem...just more mousies than I'd planned on.

I've learned to check under the tail of young tris and be timely when sexing long haired mousies. The long haired ones have massive amounts of fur fountaining all over right at the age where they need to be separated, so it's important to identify them when they are around 10 days old to 2 weeks old.

I've gotten good at recognizinng the little vertical folds of skin (the scrotum) left where the 'nads have been withdrawn into the abdomen. That clue gets very hard to see on long haired meeces once they get their adult coat in. The gap can vary from line to line....yeah, it's frustrating, but when you love meeces, it's just part of the price you pay.

Young does can also become very puffy around the vagina when in heat, which can give the appearance of having a set of stones.


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## Gill

Thanks, Moustress - I thought that was the case. It looks as if the poor little thing is in for a lonely existance. I'm now thinking it might be kindest to cull it as it's female side won't enjoy being kept alone. It's such a shame; it's the only Siamese I have bred which shews signs of decent points.


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## MoonfallTheFox

I would keep it, personally.

You could make it a pet, and if you handle it, it would probably be fine. You could also neuter or spay it, making it one gender only.

Out of curiosity..is there any way to tell if it has a penis/vagina both? I'm quite interested in this phenomenon. Or, does it have normal female genitals but a pair of testicles? Mice may be too small but you can get a male rat to extend his penis if you are gentle. (have had to do this when they get plugs, lovely eh?)


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## Velvet_Meece

They were deffo testies, seen enough of them to know, lol, they would pop in and out when you picked her up too. She didn't have a sealed vent though, was perfectly ok in that respect, she was in there a long time and didn't get pregnant though so i assume she was infertile, it was because of the lack of pregnancy that got me to take a closer look in the first place when i first realised. Was very strange indeed, not had one since though.


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## Gill

Mine is the same as Velvet_Meece's and, as it tried to mate with a doe, I'm assuming it also has a penis.


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## Laigaie

I would really not assume that mounting = "mating attempt" = penis. It's really not unusual for dominant males OR females to mount other males OR females. I'm not trying to say that your intersex mouse isn't just that, so much as to remind folks that most mice who may initially appear to be intersex are often just aggressively dominant.


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## moustress

Mounting and other sexual behavior can occur in any combination of mousies; sometimes it a dominance thing, sometimes it's just plain libido. Meeces are sensitive to smell over just about anything else, and the hormones in each sex end up as the same product in the blood; the same is true of humans and probably all other mammals as well, I suppose.


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## Gill

Amber doesn't appear to be able to function as a female, although it smells like one. So, for a couple of weeks, it has been happily sharing a cage with my best buck. Initially there were lots of squeaks, but nothing more, until the SQ got the message that Amber didn't want to mate. This evening, when I went to feed the mice, I found Amber in the cage with the young females (still haven't worked out how it got there). Unfortunately I think it can function as a male. Double trouble. Possible multiple unwanted pregnancies, and nowhere to put Amber as it now smells like a male (SQ attacked it, and drew blood, when I tried putting it back in it's own cage). B****r. :evil:


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## Frizzle

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd love to see pictures of this things junk! Not to be weird...


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## Gill

It looks just like any other male at the moment. I could take a photo, but the nipples wouldn't show.
Regretfully I don't think I can keep it - now that it has become an escape artist, it has become a liability.


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## MoonfallTheFox

I'd take your hands or some doe bedding and rub it all over the mouse, and also put it in a cage overnight with the bedding from the does. That way it will smell female again. The male should be able to accept it again.

What did it escape from?


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## Frizzle

If you have to cull it, you should do an autopsy. With lots of pictures. See if it has fully functioning sets, or if it just happens to have mammary glands.


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## Shadowrunner

That *is* super fascinating.
It makes you think. So many things have to go exactly according to plan to get a normal healthy baby. This is only one thing that can go wrong. It makes you wonder how on earth everything can go right so often. Sounds like a smart little bugger either way.


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## Gill

To answer your question, Moonfall: it escaped from a cage which is specifically intended for mice. The bar spacing is very small; too narrow for quite young mice to squeeze through, but this little bugger managed it (the cages are stacked, so it could not have used the door as it is in the roof).

I've also tried your suggestion about reintroducing it to a buck as it's been in an a nesting box overnight (vacated, but not cleaned). I tried first with my second buck, jasper, but he decided it was male, so I hurredly removed it and put it back with SQ. That seems to be working. They had a good sniff, and then settled down to groom each other. There were a lot of squeaks, but that was when SQ attempted to mate with it. So, fingers crossed.

Frizzle, it's nearly 50 years since I took my "O" Levels, and I haven't done any biology. So, if I do end up culling it, an autopsy is out. I wouldn't know how. I'm not squuemish, but, at the Grammer School I attended, disections weren't on the agenda.

I now have some photos - they are not very good as it's withdrawn it's testicles most of the time since the fight (you can still see one of the wounds on it's tail), but they just about shew it's male attributes.


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## Frizzle

Darn...  When they are dropped, would you say they are comparable in size to other male mice, or smaller? I think its interesting how one male will accept it over another. You have to wonder if one is more sensitive to the male/female pheromones.


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## Gill

When dropped, definately full size. That's how I first realised that it couldn't be a doe. And I was surprised that Jasper thought it was a male, but SQ a female. Perhaps Jasper gave it such a fright that it produced extra female pheromones. Judging by the squeaks, SQ has spent half the evening trying to mate with it (I've been checking on them regularly, and they are definately not fighting). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they can continue to live together. However, if the little sod gets in with the girls again, it will definately have to go.


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## moustress

I have an old buck (Tracker) who had been breeding for months, but when put to another couple of does he settled in with his 'nads tucked way up inside, and nothing much happened. I've had him by himself for about a week now and the stones are showing up in the desired position again. Maybe he was just tuckered out, not in the mood, had no chemistry with the girls he was with...I don't know. I want to breed him one more time, so I'm letting him rest for another week or so and I'm hoping he gets his manly stuff back in order.

His stones were risen all the way up in front of his 'instrument' in the abdominal cavity.


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## MoonfallTheFox

Can you transfer it and its cagemate to a tank?

I hate to be annoying but I'm pretty attached to the little guy and I would cry if you culled it. Not to guilt you or anything.


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## Gill

Pity mice can't fly, otherwise I could point it in your direction.

I do have a tank; well, actually a converted plastic box. I'll have to see if I can put a shelf in it as, although it's quite large, voulume-wise, the floor space is only really suited to a single mouse. The good news is that Amber and SQ were happily curled up together this morning, so perhaps the escape was just a fluke.

I do, however, envisage problems in the future. SQ is currently my best buck, so I'll probably need him for breeding again. I can't put a doe in with Amber still in situ as it would revert to male mode with a female around, but, if I take it out, then it is still likely to become male as only males are happy to live alone. Oh well, I'll just have to cross that bridge when I come to it.


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## SarahY

> I hate to be annoying but I'm pretty attached to the little guy and I would cry if you culled it. Not to guilt you or anything.


Whether intentional or not, this is emotional blackmail. As you aren't in a position for offer a pet home to this mouse, please refrain from making these kinds of comments


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## Gill

The wretched thing must be a reincarnation of Harry Houdini. This evening it was back in the girls' cage. I put it back in it's own (no protest from SQ, so it couldn't have been there very long), and a few minutes later watched, astonished, as it squeezed out between the bars; bars which have gaps too narrow for much younger mice to get through. In desperation, I have put the cage on a high shelf, so, even if it gets out again, there is nowhere for it to go.

I'm now wondering how often it has got out in the past. My pet doe, Minnie, who hasn't been put to a buck since late October, is looking rather podgy all of a sudden. I'm hoping it's just all the treats she gets, but I have a horrid suspicion.............


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## Gill

Unfortunately Amber tried jumping down from the shelf and landed on a buck's cage, and you know what happens when two bucks meet (and one only semi-conscious). So I had to put it out of it's misery. End of story.


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## Gill

I was wrong. It wasn't the end of the story. Yesterday I found three live and one dead pinkie in Minnie's cage. And quite a few other does have rounded tummies. Very rude, unprintable word.


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## Frizzle

Wow, how many did he get to? Do you plan on keeping the offspring? Besides that they aren't what you're looking for, is there a chance of the hermaphroditic being genetic? Really sorry for what happened. Just theorizing, but if this mouse was able to get to your females, then doesn't that mean that wild mice can also get into them?


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## Gill

I have no idea how many the blankety-blank thing managed to impregnate, and I doubt if I can keep many, if any, of the offspring.

Although my cottage dates from the 1860's, and I live in a rural area, the only wild mice I have seen are woodmice, and they tend to steer clear of houses. Also, just as an experiment, I put some three-week old mice in the cage Amber used to share with SQ. They made a valiant effort, but were unable to squeeze through the bars. Amber must have had an odd-shaped head to have managed it.
(For the record, I didn't leave the youngsters in the cage; they are now back with mum).


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## Frizzle

I feel bad for your run of bad luck, but find this all very interesting to me. If I had a herm. mouse... well, it would be super neat! I don't suppose you still have his body to look at the skull structure? That would take less biology then say, an autopsy  I'm sure there is a solute out there you could just leave his head in.

I'd read that if you introduce a new male to a female who was bred within 5 days previous, she will re-absorb the embryo's, because nature tells her that the new male must be better then the old one, therefor passing on his genes is more beneficial. I wonder if placing male soiled bedding would accomplish the same thing? That would have been useful, but I suppose its been to long now. Or that its even true, you never know what's on the internet these days.


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## MoonfallTheFox

That's unfortunate, both the death of the mouse and the litters.

Hopefully, some of the babies will be nice siamese like the father.


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## Gill

Moonfall, much though I would like to keep the babies, I only have a limited capacity, and I am not very hopeful that they will fit into my (normally carefully controlled) breeding programme. Minnie's three will undoubtedly be Siamese, as she is, but most of my other does are pied, which is what I am aiming for (Minnie, and her daughter Wine, are just kept as pets).

Frizzle, I'm afraid I got rid of the body on the day I culled the mouse. It never occurred to me that the skull could be deformed until I tried the experiment with the youngsters. And I certainly don't want another one.


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## Laigaie

Side note: Frizzle, an inspection of the corpse of an animal is called a "necropsy". Only when one is inspecting the corpse of one's own species does one call it an "autopsy".


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## Frizzle

Laigaie said:


> Side note: Frizzle, an inspection of the corpse of an animal is called a "necropsy". Only when one is inspecting the corpse of one's own species does one call it an "autopsy".


Oops, thanks.


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