# Food type and results



## Teenybits (Jun 3, 2016)

I was feeding homemade mix and now teklad lab blocks, I do notice that the bins do smell quicker with the lab blocks. Is this what lab blocks users notice? My mice live in the house with me so I could tell the difference quite quickly. I am feeding mainly lab blocks now (always available), and would give homemade mix a few times a week too. This reason being I had a lot of food wastage when they are on entire homemade. Feeding lab blocks and occasion homemade mix works as I reduce food wastage to a minimum.


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## Torin (May 18, 2016)

What was the protein % in your home made mix like, compared to the new food? My guess would be that the new one is higher in protein, as a those on a higher protein diet do produce stinkier waste than those on lower levels - this is true for all animals, not just mice.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Some lab blocks over here have yucca extract in to help with the smell and I have heard that it seems to work nicely, but not sure if you have access to anything like that over there. Mazuri is the brand that people seem to like for that in america


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## Teenybits (Jun 3, 2016)

I was giving oats/grains/seeds with mealworms. When I started to add dog food in the mix, the food wastage was horrible as I was scooping and throwing the food placed in. I could clearly see some bins with zero dog food left and lots of oats/grains/seeds or some bins with dog food left and some leftover oats/grains/seeds that never seem to get moving. I tried not giving for a day and I don't see the food moving too. That's when I had to consider an "all-in" food like only dog food with appropriate nutrition for mice (I know it's crazy) or lab blocks. I read that Teklad is popular and without fillers (also no animal protein) so I used it. I supplement w Mealworm so I think it would be fine. It has 18% protein. The older mice took a while before I could see they take it more readily but the younger ones are not fussy. I started adding the oats/grains/seeds mix more as a treat and it's all gone so I find this is working well. Teklad has many types but the supplier only bring in 1 type as that's what the lab breeding facility here use.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

I am in the exact same position of you. For a few mice the little mix I made seemed to be working well but then I started to get some that would instantly bury any food, tried not feeding for a day and they don't seem to eat it and just want fresh, try feeding less and again not working well. Starting to get some mice fat and others seemingly lacking, I am guessing because some would just eat all the higher protein/fat things put in and spreading it all over the cage just further increased the waste and cost.

Picking up my 25lb bag of lab blocks on saturday after finally managing to find somewhere that will get them for me. It is 24% protein so I won't need to supplement with mealworms but will just dilute with oats/seads for retirees


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## Teenybits (Jun 3, 2016)

Ah, yes you are right, it's the same headache I faced. Initially I thought maybe they didn't like "processed food" like rolled oats so I bought more expensive food like oat groats (they only exist as organic here!) and still not working  I tried very hard and finally found the lab blocks I would like to give though I was feeling guilty about giving them as I would prefer giving them homemade mix but am glad it's working so much better now. I see better results in the the health of all mice as a whole. I hope it works out well for you too


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## Teenybits (Jun 3, 2016)

Hi Lilly, how is it gg for you now wrt to this subject?

I am starting to drop lab blocks as I discover they are gnawing on lab blocks into dust. It is what makes the bin smell as the dust + pee is the culprit. The smell is gone when I went back to natural homemade mix. Back to finding a sweet balance. As I calculate, to get a min of 18% protein in the diet, it's almost necessary to use 30% dog/cat knibbles (with protein @ at least 30%, not even 25%) + 20% bird seeds + 50% oats. Based on past encounter, likely food wastage. I am now playing w the idea of not mixing but giving solely oats a day, seeds the next and knibbles next and repeat so that at the end of day, I still achieve the nutritional profile in their diet minus the work of mixing and wastage.

I am not sure if anyone has tried this.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

I have been noticing the same as you, I just end up with dust + pee and I am having to clean cages every 2 days and even then its smellier than I'd like when before I would only have to clean them every 1-2 weeks. I have moved some of mine back to oats + blocks and this somewhat reduces the smell but I am unable to find a happy medium either.

Unless I can find some wholesale oats or other things then oats are just not cost effective but I hate how much dust and then them just outright peeing in their food bowls on whole blocks is affecting the smell.

The stuff I got was recommended has having yucca extract to reduce the smell and others saying it really works well to control it. Maybe because I do not feed them from a hopper type thing (like lab cages you put the food on top and then just pull down as they eat). I can't imagine that would help much with the dust though as they have to crush them down more to even get to the food.

I wonder how practical making your own block kind of things is, something like whole oats, crushed lab blocks, seeds with something of a binder to keep them together and baked into like a small cookie form. No idea how good that would be other than you can control the amounts of each thing in it.


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## Torin (May 18, 2016)

Are other grains very expensive over there then, if alternatives aren't as cost effective? In the UK barley is the most common cereal grown (and is lower in phosphorus, so better for bucks), so that's the base of my mouse food rather than oats.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

My main issue was that I was getting rolled oats from walmart which is around $3 for 2.5lb although have found feed places do 50lb bags for $12 so an awful lot cheaper, will look into barley though.

What is your mix Torin?


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## Torin (May 18, 2016)

Yes, if you are able to buy in bulk then that tends to be very cost effective. I find with a small number of rodents it's easy to buy cost effective food in small amounts, and if you have a large number and can buy by the sack then that's good too. But if you have some sort of a middle number it can be tricky both to source suitable amounts and to get value for money!

I buy barley from the local feed shop, but if you're doing smaller supermarket amounts then it tends to be hidden in the aisle with lentils and broth mixes rather than with other grains.

I buy rodent food ingredients in bulk sacks (10-20Kg) for the most part. I have large storage containers for each of the ingredients, and then mix up specific mouse food batches every couple of months in a smaller tub that is easier to feed groups from. Each batch varies a bit but currently it's:
5Kg pig grower pellets
4Kg premium depurative pigeon food
2Kg HBB (barley-based muesli rabbit food that most of the rat fancy use as a base)
800g white rice
1.4Kg dog food.

The specific analysis of the above mix overall is 15.56% protein and 5.39% fat. I have a big spreadsheet so I can input the ingredients and nutritional values so I know exactly what I'm feeding at any one time (and what past batches were) to monitor condition and react accordingly.

In any case, my general batch base is a mix of pig pellets, low-legume pigeon food, and usually some chicken corn (I sometimes buy one which is wheat and maize, sometimes buy one which is barley and maize). With dog food (usually working kibble as that's VAT free in the UK) and other bits and bobs (e.g. cornflakes, porridge, rice, nuts, dried fruit, any other small bags of commercial rodent food I'm given) added.

This is a photo of the batch of food I made up before the current one









Hope the slower reply is still useful; I don't check this forum regularly.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Its very useful thank you, I was looking at the pig or young goat sweet feed considering if they would be ok for mice as part of a mix.

I cannot find barley except at the supermarket but its really expensive there and for me not cost efficient so oats will have to be the base. I am in the place where I have middle numbers, around 20 or so adults and whichever babies I have, but fluctuates a bit.

I don't mind getting 50lb bags of stuff as long as it will give them their nutritional needs, maybe better to alternate between a mix and blocks

I am not sure I have ever heard of HBB over here but will look into some of the things.

Trying to aim for 18% protein but it seems almost all grain based things are most dog foods that are not $60+ a bag are only around 25% so would have to use rather more of it than I am comfortable doing. Maybe setting up a little feed bug farm might be the solution, gut loaded mealworms and dubias or something similar

Thank you for your reply even if it is delayed


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## Torin (May 18, 2016)

I chuck extra kibble at does on the nest (low fat cat kibble) and running on groups (dog kibble) to meet their growing needs. But I find it better (both cost effective and more nutritionaly suitable for other adults) to do that on top of the main mix, rather than havIng the whole mix at top level protein.

HBB is Harrison's Banana Brunch, which I think is a UK only brand. I wouldn't specifically aim for it for mice, I'm just trying to use up the end of a bag I already have! It's currently replacing the usual chicken corn part.

I'd definitely try some pig nuts if you can get them. Over here ones which are for nursing pig mums or weaning piglets are higher in protein than those for adult pigs if you have the choice. Goat mix tends to have a lot of fibrous bits of plants in, so is less energy dense (energy levels may be made up with molasses in some products) and the mice may well not eat all the bits. If you had higher numbers it might be worth buying a sack to try adding it, but from the sounds of your setup it sounds like the pig nuts would be more appropriate out of the two to try.

Take care with bugs; while they're very high in protein, they're also super high in fat too.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Just wanted to follow-up on this that I got so frustrated with the smell that I decided to go back to my own mix but its very different from the mix I had before, inspired a lot by Torin saying about pig nuts I looked around at other animal feeds and found that you can get game bird crumbles that are 30% protein as well as pig pellets being 20% and other things like that, as long as its grain based or protein based rather than forage based anyway.

I started using it last Monday on clean out day so food and clean cages went in together. Normally by wed morning I would be smelling ammonia, by thurs it would be stinging my nose when I walked in and prompt me to have to clean again in the smaller bins. It is now Monday again. The only cage I have had to clean was a cage where the water bottle leaked a bit and it got a lot of the bedding wet. I do not smell ammonia, I do not smell a mousey smell when I walk in and although the cages smell mousey if I put my nose to them, it is a normal mousey smell rather than a really dirty needs changing smell.

Downside is I have 150lb of food since I had to get them in 50lb bags (not really a downside I guess other than high initial cost, but will last monhs)! + some of the blocks left that I will slowly use up on rats and save for transport since that is easier than a mix for shows etc.

I need to make changes, I would like to have something that is higher protein and affordable to add in case the crumbles get a bit lost, pig pellets over here are very expensive compared to other things, but possibly look at game bird pellets or such.


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