# Mites



## Rosewood

Couple of questions:

What effects do mites have on mice? 
What do mites look like?
Can mites kill?
Can mites spread if not close to other mice?
Can mites do anything to humans?

I went to check on my mice earlier and the mother of a litter had just dropped dead. I was shocked as before I went to manchester, she and the pups were fine. I took the dad of the litter with me to manchester and he had treated for fleas as a precaution. When I've come to look at the pups today, they all seem to be slowly deteriorating and at least three out of 8 appear to have just died on the spot, the others are not looking good. I found one in the process of dying, taking a gasping breath, eyes wide every few moments (I culled, as it was horrible to see and I knew it wasn't going to recover) I later looked at this pup and saw little things crawling on it, so instantly got out the flea spray and sprayed its dad and siblings again.

I've got to check on the other mice and two of the black tans in my tank of four (one buck and 3 does, thankfully not put in the one dave safe gave me last week yet, so he's safe) and two of those were dead too, while they were alive earlier. None of my mice have every shown signs of fleas or mice and I only flead them all the other week before manchester, and also before I brought home all the mice from Mark Robinson in Filey. I'm starting to wonder if they have popped up from some of those. I saw something on a maxey that looked identical to what was on my mouse, so I don't know whether my male could have picked it up from manchester. I'm really worried. I've gone around with the flea spray today just to be sure but this has really upset me. All the mice appear to be slowly thinning, despite having plenty of food and water and literally just appear to have dropped dead.

What on earth do I do!


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## SarahC

they look small ,round and brownish red.They are blood suckers and will cause death.They spread and all your mice plus their cages will need treating and the maxeys.They don't pose a threat to humans.Best to treat new stock prior to mixing it in.I treated all the new mice I bought back from Manchester before putting them in my shed regardless of who they came from.


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## Wight Isle Stud

Hi Rosewood, I dont think you picked up that lot from manchester, you will probably find the infestation has been there a while and waiting for conditions to be right before there is a mass explosion in the mite population on your mice. There hasnt been enough time for this to happen, but you can of course pick it up from shows,we all get clear of mites but then the cycle can start again after a show, so spray them on every return. I use a Pidgeon Mite spray, for general use on mice I do what it says to do on the can. If you have a heavy infestation, crawling over the young etc, then just spray the lot-even young pups just furred up, this is in direct contradiction to instructions on the can but it works and doesnt harm them. yes it gets in their eyes, soaks their fur, the lot. spray the box to and especialy the bedding they lie on. clean out the following day, and repeat every three days to catch hatching eggs, young mites, and adults. there is away to spot mites before they are full in your face like you describe, look under the back legs of newly furred pups and you will see them there. I am sorry this has happened to you, it is experiential learning and if you ar unable to recover from this we will restock you, so chin up and into battle mate !


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## Wight Isle Stud

quick note, dont let the spray get in the water, if you use pots.


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## Wight Isle Stud

another one that completly worked for many years, was to hang a vapona fly vapour box in the mousery- cant get these now but hang a cat flea collar in the shed and that wrks too. I dont know where you keep your micebut you certainly do not want to be breathing in any of that stuff.


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## Matt Haslam

I agree with the advice already given.

Its the warmer weather, same as dog and cat fleas, mites population explodes if they are present. I had a really bad year one year with my rats, i had a couple of lossess.

As preventative i use ant powder in the bottom of my boxes and any mite suspect i either spray with Frontline, or if i don't have any of that, you can buy at pretty much every supermarket Bob Martin insecticidal shampoo. I put some in a small plastic container and add luke warm water; pretty much dip my mice in it.

TBH anything that contains some insecticide will work.

I haven't had sign of the mite this year, but guess i will after hearing about the recent outbreak. I'll treat all my mice as preventative.


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## geordiesmice

Be carefull using insecticide sprays or powders indoors breathing them in plenty ventilation and a dust mask but that wont stop spray .It really is important not to breath this stuff in.


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## racingmouse

Mites are microscopic so you won`t be able to see them. If you see anything scrurrying around in the mouses` fur, it`s more likely to be lice. What did you `spray` them with previously? To be honest, I would`nt trust any over-the-counter treatments because mice are so sensitive and also tend to lick/clean their fur so can ingest it and will constantly scratch if they have any scabbing or cuts.

The best thing to do would be to get on top of this before breeding anymore mice incase it`s proving difficult to shift, as these things are. Your vet is the best person to treat this as Ivermectin is a nerve agent and can potentially be harmful. I used to use that Beaphar spot-on for gerbils and syrian hamsters when I suspected one of mine had mites, but Rosie took a reaction to it and her skin itching became worse as a result, so I can`t treat her with anything now as her skin is sore and red in places which needs bathed every other day, so using chemicals near her would only make matters worse and she`s an old mouse now.

If you suspect more than one mouse is affected, it might be a good idea to try and identify what the parasite is by asking your vet to look at a skin/hair sample under a microscope and blanket treat all the mice once you know what`s causing it? These things can be caused by bringing in affected mice, husbandry issues/overcrowding or something that has been brought in via hay/straw, that sort of thing.


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## SarahY

You can see mites (or at least their presence, the browny red bits) and they are very easily treated with sprays and powders that you can buy from the pet shop. I spray every mouse going in or out and have only had two serious outbreaks - both treated in less than a week with Bob Martin 'My Little Friend' Spray:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Martin-My-Little-Friend-Spray/dp/B003A8OHUS

ETA: After re-reading your post I really don't think it was mites/fleas/lice that killed your mice. It takes a long time for these parasites to kill mice, the mice would get visibly ill and usually will have scratched holes in themselves first. No harm in treating for it though. If your mice' immune systems were comprised, mites will appear on weak, sick mice. I would imagine that the mites you're seeing are a result of something else.

Sarah xxx


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## Matt Haslam

racingmouse said:


> Mites are microscopic so you won`t be able to see them.


incorrect, you can see them, just. When the little vampires have been sucking blood they swell up. they appear reddish to the eye. Like fleas, they target warmer areas of the animal. so inside tops of hind legs and ears are hot spots. You can also see where they have been biting your animal, this appears as reddy/brown marks.



> Your vet is the best person to treat


 I cannot disagree with this, this is very safe advice. However mites CAN be successfully treated at home with over the counter products. The main thing is to treat the environment: get rid of any bedding you may have and replace with new. Clean down all the housing and treat your mice, a basic animal insecticide (in a mild solution) WILL work.

It is not always practical for a mouse breeder to take all their mice to a vet for mites (especially when this can be effectively treated yourself.)

I do not think that your mice died from mites, as Sarah said, you would have noticed a lot more symptons before they died from mites.


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## racingmouse

I was more worried about what she had used to treat/spray the mice with as this could well have caused their deaths if the spray was too strong. Especially on very young mice. Sometimes these preperations can be too strong for mice and once applied, are not reversable. They can cause seizures and death.

Someone posted on a hamster forum just the other day asking if they could use the rabbit Beaphar spot-on on their dwarf hamster. Now I know for a fact that the Beaphar products are based on the size and weight of the animal, so a preparetion used on a rabbit or a guinea pig could kill a smaller rodent like a mouse or a hamster. Their thinking was that they did`nt want to go and but the proper one since they could just use a `spot` of the rabbit one instead. They did`nt seem to understand that the preperation strength would be enough to do damage even if it was dosed as a smaller amount.

I`m sure some of these home remedies do work, but I would be very, very careful with what I was applying and whether it might make matters worse. I learned my lesson with spot-on treatments and would always see my vet now if I even see a small spot or scab forming because I know these can flare up into something far more aggressive. The state we see some mice in through constant scratching can result from too much intervention from applying powders, sprays and other topical stuff. Many are plany based pyrethrins (from the crysanthemum flower) and not even strong enough to deal with mange type mites. Even tea tree is too strong for mice. It` s a natural product but MUST be diluted even in human use. It also stinks and would proably cause even more stress to the mouse/mice if applied.


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## Matt Haslam

herein lies he difference between a pet owner and an exhibition breeder


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## geordiesmice

Racing mouse the chemical I used years ago for the control of red mite was very potent white in colour and smelled very strong probably banned now I cant remember its name but I wouldnt recomend it you had to wear protective clothing.Sorry Rosewood I didnt read your post about the loss of your Mice .I only know alot about Red spider mite and this wont apply to you but thought I would mention it because Mice can get Red spider Mite, that go on birds and Animals they can be killers if not treated soon they suck blood out of the bird/Animal through the night then crawl back under the perch/corners etc they go on humans too and can bite and irritate you but thats all. 
I know I have seen it terrible thing to get rid of it can become an infestation you normally get those in sheds etc people who didnt clean out there cages sheds etc bought animals or birds carrying it got alot of red mite and straw hay from farmers can carry it too. You knew they had them when you came out of the shed and you were scratching you can see them there red in colour. Buying animals birds from Saturday morning auctions used to harbour red mite people getting rid of Animals they didnt want there was a famous sale up North that sold pest and disease ridden animals I bought some when I was much younger and I didnt know any better . Ive never seen a mite yet on My mice but I would use what the other Members recomend,Johnsons used to do a good spray also.Permethrin is harmless unless your allergict toPermethrin of course from the Pyrethrum plant and works well on alot of insect pests.


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## racingmouse

Yes, but how many mice have to be culled or die as a result of mis-use of pesticides? The pet owner does have access to over-the-counter preperations and can be advised about these other `non-mouse` products and some may well be safe to use, but first you need to know what you are treating? It could be an intollerance to food, an allergy to substrate or basically a mouse with a dodgy nervous system. None require mite treatment.

If you do see visable creepy-crawlies, then yes, it`s worth looking at `some` of these products. But microscopic mites that are usually brought about by stress, a low immune system or illness are usually harder to treat. Hence the need for further investigation and that of course, costs money. I personally would pay £100 or more to have a vet diagnose properly if I thought it would help. I know that`s not something all breeders would do because you guys do your own thing and that`s another debatable topic since we are dealing with live animals at the end of the day.

Sometimes it`s not the product itself, but how it`s applied and how often. I would think that a product used to treat very small birds like finches might be a good choice since small mice weigh about the same? But then mouse mites are not the same species as bird mites, so there lies your conundrum.


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## SarahY

> Yes, but how many mice have to be culled or die as a result of mis-use of pesticides?


That has certainly never happened to any of my mice. It just takes a little bit of common sense, doesn't it?



> It could be an intollerance to food, an allergy to substrate or basically a mouse with a dodgy nervous system.


Such a weak mouse has no place in a stud, and as such would be euthanised.

Doesn't matter what angle you approach this from racingmouse, the simple fact is that a breeder with 100+ mice is just not going to take any to the vets.

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC

I just want to butt in with a reminder of with how easy cross contamination can occur.I collected a mouse from Rosewood among other people from Manchester.I sprayed all the new comers and kept them in the house other wise I might have spread them to mine just as easy as that.I like frontline for treating as it stays on the fur and any further pests that hatch are also killed.Available on prescription only in this country but I buy it from Europe through ebay,thats because I have a lot of animals though.A small bottle from the vet is about £14 and will treat all your mice with enough left for for further treatments in future.Frontline is just my preference,I'm sure other products are effective whatever the parasite involved happens to be.


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## racingmouse

I understand that SarahY, but if more than one mouse in that unit are showing the same sysmptoms, would`nt it be a good idea to take just a couple of the mice along to the vet, explain your situation (i,e, having a lot of mice with the same symptoms) and buying the proper stuff to blanket treat them all? I know it would cost more initially, but better treating with something a vet has prescribed to do the job rather than spending money on other preparations which may or may not work or even be dangerous? I refer of course to people using products just because someone has said it works, when perhaps they have a vast amount of experience at applying various products but don`t actually say how best to use it? A spray for example is probably best sprayed onto a cotton ball or pad and applied to the coat, rather than spraying directly onto the mouse, where it might irritate the eyes and/or the airways. A topical spot-on treatment is usually applied directly from the pipette onto the parted hair on the top of the shoulders and powders can also be breathed in, so it`s always a good idea when mentioning a product that has worked, to say also how it should be applied safely? Moreso for members who may never have used them before.


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## Rosewood

I've had the majority of the mice spilt for a week and I _thought_ I'd sprayed them all (I originally used Johnson's insecticidal spray and back combed the mice with a tooth brush to make sure I got down to the roots of their fur, I've now bought a pidgeon/budgie spray and have been using that to treat the new ones). Some of the mice that are just dropping dead haven't been in close contact with any of the others from Mark's stock. I might have missed a mouse or two, having so many similar looking ones, I lose track of who I've sprayed.

I've changed bedding now and sprayed them all again throughly. Some seem fine and bouncy like usual, others just look like they've had the life sucked out of them and look like they've been starved, all skin and bones, even though I give them all extra food half the time and the majority have even been having a snack of bread and milk to add to their normal mix recently. I just don't get it. They all seemed okay before I went away and I've come back and this has happened. So what could have happened in that day and a half that I'd been at Manchester that could have changed the environment and caused mites to suddenly hatch?

This happening has quite upset me. I know it happens to everyone now and again, but I feel it's my fault for maybe missing one or two.

At present, my show stock seems fine. My variegated family all look okay and I've sprayed them once again just to be sure.


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## Loganberry

Racingmouse - you keep mice as pets. As far as I know, everyone else on this thread keeps them for exhibition. We do things differently to pet keepers, in that it is more about the collective than the individual. You keep a handful of mice as pets, so your concerns are for them as individuals, and you are happy to pay a lot of money to go to the vets; I save that money for my pet, the dog. As breeders, our concerns are about one individual spreading something around the collective.

We know how to keep mites under control, and there are lots of products and methods out there that work. We do not need to run to the vet, because we can treat our stock ourselves, and if our treatments fail, we remove that animal from the shed because, as SarahY says, if it can't be cured easily it is probably too weak, genetically or health-wise, to want to breed back into the stud.

That's the way it is. Communism at its finest!

Rosewood - sounds like your mice have another issue, rather than mites, causing them to turn into husks. If it was about mites, they'd be crawling with them to get into that state.


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## Rosewood

What do you think it could be, Heather? Thus far, I've only seen mites on one load of my mice, which were seperated from the others (I can seperate too far, they are all in my room and my mother hates mice, so I can't quarentine in another room, and I'm trying to get a shed to change this). The rest, so far, I haven't seen any on them, but I've sprayed to be sure.

Could fluctuating cause it? My room gets quite warm, especially in the summer, during the day and gets rather cold at night. During the day I now have the window open and have a breeze most of the time. At night, I have a small heater on. Could this effect them?


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## Loganberry

Hmmm... if they are literally turning into husks, like they're being dried out from the inside, and it's only in one variety, I'd put it down to some sort of genetic problem. I get it occasionally but it tends to be within one variety, which seems to be weak generally. Other than that, I really don't know. Is it one variety you're having problems with?

For mites, I put a healthy sprinkle of ant powder in my sawdust and mix that in - that kills anything that crawls - and for specific mice with mites, or any that are coming back from a show, I spray them top and under with Johnson's Insecticidal Spray Extra for Small Animals, from Pets @ Home. That seems to do it. The mites die by the time the mouse's fur dries. And you just have to keep on top of it. Do you use hay or straw? Mites can sometimes be carried in on that - I use shredded paper to get away from that problem (but then you do end up sometimes with mice with nicks in ears from the paper! Catch 22!)


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## Rosewood

It's not a single variety unfortunately. The ones I spotted the actual mites on were an outcross litter, of which three young bucks are still hanging on and their father seems to be acting normally at present. The others have been at random. A pet buck in an entirely different cage, away from the others, a chinchilla buck and black buck in with a varie and two champ tan bucks (all three seem fine), two black tans in a cage of four (other two does again seem fine) and two pets, buck and doe, who didn't appear to have anything on them. The outcrossed family have come off worse. The mother died first, fine one minute and dead the next, then the pups followed all the does and one buck, and now I have the three little bucks hanging in there.

All of the other mice seem fine. I can't see anything on them and I've sprayed them all and changed their cage litter and wiped down their cages thoroughly to be sure. I use both shredded paper and hay, but I've only had the hay with the black tans, so I don't think it is that. I tend to spray hay first too, to be sure I catch anything that might be in it.


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## Matt Haslam

This sounds like the 'wasting away' symptoms that i experienced with my blues. only my blues, everything else in my shed was happy and breeding fine.

I put this down to genetic prob and start again.

Can i just also acknowledge that that this is a breeding forum. The OP and the majority of the people posting in this discussion are breeding mice for the sole purpose of exhibition. The advice being given is suitable for the situation.

If someone is still concerned I would always suggest seeking veterinary attention, however in these circumstances I don't see the point.


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## geordiesmice

I breed alot of mice not hundreds though and they are from exhibition stock but as yet I do not show them.But I did not know Shiprat that this discussion was soley for the purpose of exhibition breeders there are alot of different types of people post on here who breed mice not just exhibitors or for exhibition purposes.


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## SarahC

mice are mice at the end of the day.Any of these treatments will do the job but if you've seen parasites then it makes sense to eliminate these before considering any other cause.I've tried lots of methods.I couldn't possibly treat with spot on,it would take me for ever but great if you only have a few.I've used over the counter stuff,many products available in the pigeon/poultry range,ivermectin purchased from g.pig fanciers who are always happy to sell some and these days frontline.They all work.Just take your pick,it's all good advice.


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## Matt Haslam

geordiesmice said:


> But I did not know Shiprat that this discussion was soley for the purpose of exhibition breeders there are alot of different types of people post on here who breed mice not just exhibitors or for exhibition purposes.


read my post again i don't think that I said that this thread was just for exhibition breeders, I was merely making the point of suitability of advice for the given situation



> The OP and the majority of the people posting in this discussion are breeding mice for the sole purpose of exhibition. The advice being given is suitable for the situation.


If i have offended, I apologise.


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## geordiesmice

No you havnt offended at all  ,text can look really negative like what I typed. I didnt mean I was offended, its like when people text you on your phone lol my Bro in law texted me the other day it said PHONE ME I thought the cheek  and reading it I thought have I upset him lol.


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## racingmouse

I think what geordie is meaning is that people like myself (pet mouse owner) see a post asking for advice and I answer that post on the basis that I want to help, but I`m then told to go away because I only keep pet mice? As someone just said, mice are mice, so whether the OP chooses to listen, that`s up to them. I`m only offering my own views on this. I do realise that I`m a minnow in an otherwise large pond on a forum like this and I know before posting that I will probably be over-ruled on the points I make because I`m ethically minded. That does`nt make me an outcast, but it feels like it sadly.

Loganberry, China is a communist country and I for one am appauled by the way they treat their people. If that`s the way you feel about mice, it a sad one. I know we don`t think alike, but your tone suggests that unless I comply with protocol, I should`nt bother posting?

If this forum is supposedly open to ALL mouse people, then why are the views of others not taken on board? The very mention of a vet is shouted down, yet other `pet` owners might read this thread aswell, so surely my opinion of seeking a vets advice should`nt be a negitive point?

I may have only ever kept mice as pets and companions, but I too know what i`m talking about. Just because I don`t breed mice or are part of that world, should`nt make me a leper.


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## SarahY

> Just because I don`t breed mice or are part of that world, should`nt make me a leper.


It doesn't, sometimes you just post impractical advice for the situation at hand. If the OP was someone who had a handful of pet mice then the advice you give is practical. But why tell a breeder with many, many mice to go to the vet at the drop of a hat?! Especially for something as simple as mites!



> I will probably be over-ruled on the points I make because I`m ethically minded.


I totally object to that, this comment has offended me. Just because my views differ to yours does *not* make me unethical :? So I don't think it's right to let an animal live in pain while it goes through weeks of 'medicine'. So I could take the £100s I've saved on vets' bills and use it to do better things for the healthy mice I have. When I was a rat breeder I was made to feel small and desperately guilty for not sharing the fluffy views of the typical rat fancier, and I have since learnt that they had no right to make me feel like that. I knew a woman who couldn't bear for her 'darling' pet to die - even though it had a recurring face tumour and spent most of it's life recovering from operations. It was selfish - how dare those people make me feel bad? My rats were happy and healthy - as are my mice :evil:

Sarah.


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## racingmouse

I understand all that Sarah and it`s clear that both parties will never agree on this. What I said was, take TWO mice to the vet, tell the vet what`s going on and blanket treat ALL the mice from there. What`s wrong with that? But I can see this is going nowhere so there`s no real point in continuing the conversation. If people are just going to take the hump because I say the word `ethical` then there is two ways of looking at that. I`m being ethical seeking a vets care. Your being ethical by puting a mouse or a rat to sleep before it has a chance of treatment, so you are stopping the problem by doing so without knowing if treatment would help. I on the other hand want to solve the problem if I can, but if that can`t be remedied by a vets intervention, then I too would seek that peaceful end knowing that I`ve tried. Once an animal is beyond helping, then the decision has to be made anyway.

Edited to add: I don`t agree that an animal suffers `weeks of pain` while going though treatment for mites or has to have Baytril? I think your meaning an animal that is in obvious pain or near end of life anyway? Treating a mouse for a simple ailment is`nt subjecting it to weeks of pain or suffering.


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## Rosewood

Can I just say, if this is gonna turn into a this and that kinda thread like it is doing, can you continue it somewhere else, like over PM or in another thread. I've posted this cos I'm worried about mites on mice, I don't want people arguing about ethics and such. And blah de blah.

As an update, the rest of the squeakers currently seem fine.


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## SarahC

.Rosewood has all the info to hand and can make her choice .She is a sensible person and I'm sure she can utilise all the info and appreciate being offered a a complete set of options.After all every one has the same aim,to help.Parasites are not difficult to dispel and we all have had the misfortune to experience them.


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## SarahY

I'm glad all your other mice are OK.

I apologise for my part in the thread going off topic.

Sarah xxx


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## Rosewood

No worries SarahY. And thanks.

I will keep everyone updated on how they are doing. Thank you for everyone's help.


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## Matt Haslam

apologies Rosewood for contributing. See you at Sowood hopefully!


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## racingmouse

I appologise too Rosewood and it was`nt my intention to have a debate, but that`s usually what happens whenever I have an opinion. I wish you well with your mice and hope that you find a remedy. I just wanted to point out that sometimes seeking your vets advice can go a long way if you keep having problems. Good luck.


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## Kallan

What effects do mites have on mice?
*They can carry them without showing any signs. If there are loads, or the mouse's immune system isn't great (e.g. another disease present) they can cause issues. You generally see itching, patchy hair loss, maybe damage to the skin if the mouse has been scratching or rubbing. The hair coat can look greasy.*

What do mites look like?
*Depends on the mite - there are 7+ species found on mice! Generally like eeny spiders, can sometimes see with the naked eye but very easy to spot under a microscope. (Lovely picture here: http://www.biolib.cz/en/taxonimage/id131512/)*

Can mites kill?
*Unlikely, as usually they are treated successfully. One species of mite sucks blood, so theoretically in very small mice you could get anaemia then death, but this is rare.*

Can mites spread if not close to other mice?
*Yes. Spreading is usually by direct contact, mouse to mouse. But the wee bu**ers can lurk in cages/bedding. Also, if an infected mouse dies, any mites jump ship and find a new mouse to live on.*

Can mites do anything to humans?
*Not usually. The species on rodents tend to be species specific and don't appear to like the taste of human flesh! *:lol:

*Ivermectin is the best treatment, 3 treatments 2-3 weeks apart is usually sufficient to break the lifecycle. However ivermectin can enter the brain of very young mice, so I wouldn't use it on rodents less than 2 weeks of age.*


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## The Village Mousery

Ok Mite's it seems is a secondery thing here, problem has been addressed more then likely by all above.

On this husk like mice thing i maybe able to shed abit of theory, From what i have noticed and seen signs of (I had an out break of this "virus" a few months ago and lost about 6 mice to it though my stud was very small then) this "Virus" attacks and kill's 80% of any mice it come's into contact with if they are NOT immune, the other 20 % live and recover and are fine but i believe become carryers. From what i gather its abit like this (please note i'm not a vet i've come up with this idea on my own from experiance with this illness) you get stock from Joe Blogg's his mice have had illness A and B in the line so are immune they are healthy when you get them, You get More stock from Jane Doe they have had illness B and C in the line so are immune to those illness.. (this is just it on small scale) Here lie's the problem Say illness A is this wasting virus and mice who have been in contact with it are carryers.. it means all the mice from Joe bloggs are carryers of the illness yet show no signs because they are immune you introduce them to Jane's mice and they get ill because they have no immunity to the illness so depending on how strong the mice themselves are, some will die some will live and become immune and carryers.... In my case , last year i lost 6 mice all different types and variaties from show line fox's to pet type siamese only 1 survived the illness and recovered, everything else that has been in the box's with the said dead mice where immune or strong enough to fight the illness off. My evidence for this is at harrowgate this year after 2 months being illness free i brought home a trio of mice from a trusted breeder that where beutiful and healthy after a short stay away from my other mice for mite treatment and to make sure they where healthy which they where..... i intoduced them in to my mousery. 1 week later all dead to wasting illness. This is what is leading me to belive that new mice did not have an immunity to this illness, no other mice have died since thank god as i stand to lose alot more then 6 mice now.


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## SarahY

That all sounds very reasonable and is generally known as New Shed Syndrome, as a lot of fanciers find that new mice introduced to their stud die. It's happened to me a few times, with healthy stock from good breeders.

Sarah xxx


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## The Village Mousery

yep heard it called that too sarah


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## WillowDragon

Its a whole new enviroment for them, new airspace and surrounded by new mice that may be immune to things they are not. it is quite common, and I have had it several times before.

K xx


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## moustress

Stres from being moved around and transported is just one of those facts of life for folks that bring in mousies from outside their place.

As far as treating for parasites is concerned, I don't understand the controversy. Those of us that feel confident enough to take matters into our own hands have ample advice from so many other experienced breeders that it just doesn't make sense for us to go to a vet whether it be internal, external, ectopic, or what have you. There are many different products available to the resourceful mousie owner.

The withering meeces sound like they might have internal parasites to me. Ivor-On works on all types of pests and is cheap and easy to use diluted five to one they paced three drops on the shoulders three times at one week intervals. It has worked safely on al ages, with reduction in dose for younger or smaller meeces.


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## Cait

The fact that lots of different mice in different cages have been affected makes me wonder if you are dealing with something airbourne Rosewood. Have you noticed any respiratory symptoms? What is the progression of symptoms and timeframe (disregarding the mites found in one cage)?


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## Wight Isle Stud

just want to add a practical tip on how to see if your mice have mites, even before they show any signs, visual/poor coat quality etc,- and is especially usefull for new introductions;- take the mouse in the upward palm of your hand, and place your other palm downward on the mouse, press quite hard but not so the mouse is any discomfort at all. (good sign your pressing to hard is when the mouse sinks its teeth into your thumb) after about fifteen second take your hand off and observe the coat especially around the neck area closely. All the mite if present will be on the surface of the coat. Dark coloured mice will need a quick shake over a piece of white paper. Simples.


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## katytwinkle

oh gary - great tip, thankyou - i saw Phil doing this at a show and thats how i check now - but all ur posts just make me giggle. he he he - its just the way you put things. LOL


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## Wight Isle Stud

lets have a laugh lol x i didnt wanna say but why fifteen seconds ?- its because after that you are very likely to get a palm full of wee or poo.


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## Rosewood

Cait - The only time I've noticed anything respiratory related was with the first mouse I found from the litter. She had her eyes wide open, lying on her side and was taking a quick breath every ten to fifteen seconds. The rest didn't really show anything, but they died in the night.

The odd thing is that all the ones that have died are Show types, bar two. All of my pet types seem totally fine, only one looked like she was going to husk, so I split her from the pair of girls she was with and she is fine now (I think the other two wouldn't let her reach her food or something). Only one more has died since the other day, one of the bucks I got from Mark Robinson. The rest seem fine now but I'm keeping my eye on a few who still seem iffy.

The time frame from noticing the first incident to mice dying was a matter of hours, and like I said, they were fine before I went to manchester. I checked on them all the next morning and suddenly everyone was ill and I didn't understand it at all. Fortunately (touch wood and fingers crossed) my current and only variegated litter is fine and unaffected, even though it still comprimises of three bucks, two of which are black. Hopefully the only Varie will be fine by Sowood (he'll be bang on 8 weeks, or a day under, I believe). In fact, the only Varies that have passed are the astrex outcrosses and the black from the first litter, the two six week olds from the first litter are fine.

The second Varie buck must be made of tough stuff as he was in with the mite outcross litter and he still seems fine!

Gary - Thanks, I will have to try that.


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## Cait

Usually my first thought of something to kill so many mice at the same time so quickly would be heat. But I'm a bit dubious of this in early April inside the house!


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## Rosewood

It is quite hot where I am at the moment and has been getting hotter. I don't have any aircon in my house, the best I have in my room is a single window and a fan. I have the window open the majority of the time in spring and summer, but I have to be careful at the mo because next door's kitten likes to jump through windows and I'm on the bottom floor.


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## racingmouse

I hav`nt read through the whole of this post but just wanted to say that a fan (not pointed directly at the cages) does help. Many people say because mice don`t perspire that a fan is no use at all, but actually, my own vet has suggested that a fan moves around warm, stuffy pools of air around and does help. In the summer, I have my floor standing oscelating fan on most of the day and evenings. I would`nt be without it.

As for the kitten jumping onto your windowsil, you could buy some mesh and make a window screen? Sould`nt be difficult to make a wooden frame the size of your open window and place the frame up when the window is open? Placing those spikey cat deterent ledge strips on the outside will also prevent the cat from leaping up there in the first place. He won`t want to have his paws or his bum land on jagged edges! A spray water bottle to hand would`nt go a miss either.

Heat can really make mice ill, so I would definately keep the room they are in cooler by using the fan, the window screen and using more water bottles. Placing some cold teracotta tiles in their tanks/cages helps and so does marble. Real marbe tiles (off-cuts) from DIY shops can be bought cheaply. Chinchilla`s for example are very prone to heat exhaustion, so Pets At Home sell marble slabs called `Chin-chillers`! But smaller tiles are fine for mice. So just a few tips for you there.


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## geordiesmice

I agree with racingmouse wooden screens are ideal too keep cats , birds vermin out and let a through of air circulation it beniits mice greatly plenty resh air.I have a second door on my shed when I open the first the inner is a rame covered in strong green mesh which also stops the full sun and I open the three windows too.Theres a Tom cat knocks around the garden and green at the back of the house goodness knows what would happen if he got in amongst the tanks etc.Mice wont jump on the window ledges o my shed windows ,plenty cool water change it reguarly if its warm we dont like too drink warm water mice like it cool too.Dont put the cages/ tanks near a sunny window incase of bright sun, Mice dont like draughts either.I think its one of those seasons where there are alot of mites and it just happens apparently there are alot about but there treatable.


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## Galaxy

I have just read through this entire thread and found it very interesting! I am a pet mouse owner and I can see both points of view. Last year I had a mouse who became ill VERY quickly so being out of practice of having mice I took her to the vet believing they would know what was wrong with her. Long story short I ended up pounds lighter in my pocket and a dead mouse. The vet didn't know what it could be and fell back on the possibility of it being respiratory diesease. She was a husk as Rosewood said about her poor little mice and it was sudden. No warning of any illness whatsoever and if I had known the outcome I would just have culled her because she was suffering! I think the medicine the vet gave me actually killed her (I can't remember what it was called tho).

Rosewood I know this may be a totally long shot but maybe just maybe the mice could have become dehydrated for whatever reason or something got in the water or food (am thinking of all possibilities) or something airbourne - a flying insect-a tiny one? Was anyone looking after your mice while you were away? They could have unknowingly brought something to the cages.... Or they could of already had this illness and something stressed them out enough to trigger this unhappy event....

Or maybe you were just extremely unlucky. It is VERY worrying when there isn't a totally obvious answer.

I am glad that your other mice are in good health and I hope they remain that way for the rest of their days.


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