# Newbie Q: Can it be done?



## thanatos696 (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm going to start by saying that I am aware that what I am attempting to work on here is not going to be a showable result.

That being said, I have a few hypothetical questions:
1) Can you get a clean black on a red? Not talking about just the faded black brindle.
2) Can you get the white fox belly on a red?
3) What is the highest number of bands you have seen on one mouse?

Any one see where I am going with this one?


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## Lizzle (Apr 7, 2010)

Unfortunately I don't know the answer to these questions, but I want to know too! I actually don't think the white fox belly on a red is possible, but I'm not sure that I could explain why or even if I am correct (I think it's because both genes are on the same allele, so that would mean brindle is dominant over the fox effect).

Are you trying to create a tiger mousie? :lol:

Anywho, you get a free bump from my reply.


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## Malene (Jun 8, 2010)

2) http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/quiz1.html


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> 1) Can you get a clean black on a red? Not talking about just the faded black brindle.


Yes, selectively breeding can achieve that.


> 2) Can you get the white fox belly on a red?


Not to my knowledge...


> 3) What is the highest number of bands you have seen on one mouse?


Couldn't tell you :lol:



> Any one see where I am going with this one?


You're trying to make mice that look like tigers? Jack posted a picture of a brindle mouse ages ago, it really looked like a tiger with really striking, clean black and orange stripes 

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Jack also has a picture of a bright orange mouse, with a bright white tummy... which shouldn't actually be possible!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah, in the past I've bred red (very poor, recessive yellow and unmarked brindle) mice with solid white stomachs, using the Aw/* gene (the easiest way) and also using regular old black-and-tan, bred to be very, very poor.

I never tried to combine the white-bellied reds with the striped brindles, but I gave up on both of them some time ago because, being petstore-derived mice, they had far too many unknowns (for example: himalayan would pop up constantly, as would angora and for that matter, white spots--a real headache), and improving their type was taking ages because of that. The mice were very pretty, but it just wasn't worth it.

Here are some old pictures:


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## thanatos696 (Sep 11, 2010)

Yep, I am definitely looking to create my own little micro tigers 

Jack, that orange fox is almost exactly the mouse that I would want to add the black bands to!!

I have a 4 generation line going that throws at least 50% triple band black on white, or orange band on white, and some of them are starting to have a couple spots for a fourth and fifth band!! I will try to get some pix posted, but I have to borrow a better camera, as my cheapo gets really fuzzy that close up.

I'm interested in seeing if I can get the same result with black on the orange/red, if nothing else. Since this is just a project for my own entertainment, it does not matter if these are the smaller feeder size mice. If any one near Pittsburgh has any orange fox's or orange/reds with clean black on them, or knows some one who does, let me know! :!:


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## Oakelm (Oct 17, 2009)

Only one I can answer is the bands, if your talking proper bands like the bande/belted then the most black stripes I have personally seen on a mouse is 5 plus a black nose. So funny to look at was in my feeders, had black nose not including eye area, black stripes on ears, shoulders, couple on main body and rump but white tail. In effect comparing to other siblings at the time is was a mismarked even. They were pretty even in spacing, I still get similar markings pop up from time to time but they are only small feeders so never bred for it. All on white background so proper little zebras running around :lol: but do get them in choc on white as well.


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## thanatos696 (Sep 11, 2010)

What combination would be best to try to get black spots started on an orange? One of my banded mice to a orange or just a black to an orange?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

You need American brindle (Avy/*), also called variable yellow or hypervariable yellow. The American brindle has both the orange fur and the black stripes.

You can't just "get black spots started" by breeding to a black mouse. Mendelian inheritance doesn't work that way.


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## thanatos696 (Sep 11, 2010)

Hmm.. bummer.. I don't like the washed out black that I have seen on brindles.. I'm looking for the pure black that you get on a white/black mouse.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Good luck with that! 

You might be able to make a white tiger mouse, but you can't exactly get black stripes on a coloured background, unless it's on brindle.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Rhasputin is right.

On well-bred brindles, the orange is deep orange and the black stripes are solid black. You just have to know what you're doing and remain patient, in order to get there. A goal like yours will take years, at any rate. Selective breeding of any sort takes a while.

Here is a page on brindles: http://www.afrma.org/brindlemice.htm


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## thanatos696 (Sep 11, 2010)

Hmm.. again bummer.. bear with me here as I am definitely new to this  
Any one have any pics of a brindle with good solid black stripes?

And now for what is probably a dumb question, but not understanding all of the genetic particulars involved:
How is it that you can get black spots on a tri-color but not on just any other color? Being new here this just would not seem to make much sense..
Can you get a "poor tri-color" that is just black and the second non-white color?

If you can't tell, I do tend to be a little on the persistent side..

Darn it, if they can make fish that glow in a lab, why can't I have a tiger mouse! :lol: Now where did I leave that magic wand.. sigh..


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Tricolors are caused by three separate things:

Splashed
White Spotting
Two C-dilutes which are not both c/c (albino)

You can have a tricolor without white spots, which is then called a splashed. Because splashed relies on a C-dilute, it is never orange or red with black. It's always beige, or sepia or something. In cases where there is red fur on a tricolor (such as a recessive yellow splashed), there can't be black.

There was a chocolate brindle who won BIS in the AFRMA, and he had really dark chocolate stripes. It's easier to breed chocolate because it makes the red darker and the stripes clearer, but there's no reason you couldn't do it with black. It'll just take a long time.


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