# Shriveled ear and kinked tails...



## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

Sadly, it looks like one of my True Hairless litters is riddled with deformities. 

There are 2 TH bubs in the litter. 1 has a shriveled ear and the other has a tail kink. There's a 3rd bub in the litter with a tail kink as well, but he's not a TH.

Kink-Tailed TH

















Kink-Tailed Standard









Shrivel-eared TH

















Aside from the deformities all 3 bubs seem perfectly healthy and aren't runty. I would prefer NOT to have to cull the TH if these deformities are purely cosmetic.

I know kinked tails are somewhat common, but what about shriveled ears? Has anyone dealt with such an issue before? Are either of the deformities harmful to the mice or are they just cosmetically displeasing?


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

What did you cross them to?

The ear thing could be a problem, or it could not be. At best it's just the ear that's affected and it's not a big deal, and at worst it would be a skull deformity which could cause problems.

I've also never seen satin crossed into hairless before, so you'll have to let us know how that turns out.

I would avoid breeding the parents again (at all) because it seems like kinks are a sort of recessive trait that runs in lines, so it's best to just remove the known carriers and kinked ones. The tails shouldn't be a problem for the mice themselves, but they shouldn't breed.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Too many recessives in one mousie brings out problems like this; the kinked tail is probably genetic, the ear, maybe not. I'd be very careful to outcross if you do breed these mousies.


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

I wasn't planning on breeding the parents any more. It was just a one-time breeding to get a TH male, which I got. Unfortunately, he's got the deformed ear. Ugh. Hopefully I'll get more TH in the last litter, which should open it's eyes any day now.

The dad is a PEW Standard and the mom is a PEW Satin Their mom is a TH carrier and their dad is a show-type PEW Fuzzy. It was stupid of me to breed Fuzzy into TH, but he was the best buck I had at the time. I re-paired the mom to a PEW Standard and hope to start over with that line once I get a TH from them.

I didn't get any deformities in the 3 other litters I got from my other TH carriers, it was only this one.

As for Satin, I will definitely let you know how it works out. I wasn't really planning on breeding for satin, but the parents were some of the best-typed of the bubs I got from my TH Carriers.

Mousetress- I will definitely be outcrossing any TH babies I breed. They will be crossed to my most typey mice. I'm focusing purely on type to help get big, strong TH. That's why I kept so many TH carriers and have so many bubs(38 in total), because I wanted at least 1 TH buck to work with so I could out-breed the line to get better type without losing the TH gene. I started with just 2 TH carriers which I bred out for type. These babies are the result of crossing the offspring of those out-crosses.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

It sounds like you are right on top of things; good deal!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Combining "too many" recessive genes in it of itself does NOT cause genetic problems....period. What *can* make it seem that way is inbreeding bringing out hidden problems.

The kinded tails is wierd and sucks  The ear....are you sure it is shrivled and not just stuck to itself? My hairless (especially the youngsters, but even the adults sometimes) seem to have their ear skin stick to itself pretty frequently...lol


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the ear is deformed and not just folded. I tried to get a better look at it when I got home from work, but he was too squirmy. It looked like there wasn't even a hole for his ear...but, like I said, he was squirmy, so I could have just been seeing things or perhaps his ear is just taking a bit longer to unseal.

Once he loses the fur on his head I will be able to get a better look at it.

On a different note, I remembered reading something about kinked tails being related to the Manx gene. Does anyone know if that's true?

I did some digging and was able to dig up the site I'd read it from: http://www.oocities.org/funchy_crunchy/mmanx.htm

According to that site, you can breed Manx by carefully breeding kink-tailed/short-tailed mice together and after a few generations you should get Manx. It seems a bit risky though, imo. I can't imagine that any good would come from intentionally breeding for a spinal deformity...Even if you DO get Manx I would think that you would have to go through alot of bubs with spinal deformities before you get any viable Manx ones. :/


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Manx is either genetically recessive, or dominant, and so far as I'm aware, even with recessive, you don't have kinks in heterozygotes. Now actual manx (dominant OR recessive) with shortened tails can have kinks in the shortened tail (usually very near the tip)...but normally these deformities (b/c manx in it of itself is technically a deformity) are restricted to the caudal (tail) vertebrae...so the vital portions of the spine should not normally be affected (in rare cases the hip area may be affected). Kinked tails WITHOUT shortened tails are not related to the manx genes, and I have never seen or heard of any evidence to contrary. You cannot produce manx from mice that just plain have kinked tails.

That link provides, in my experience with manx, not the most accurate information.


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

Thanks for the info Stina! I wasn't planning on intentionally breeding any kink-tailed mice together or anything, but found it to be an interesting read back when I was reading about manx mice(I was bored, lol).

That being said, is there possibly any way to SAFELY breed the TH girl with the kinked tail? My only desire would be to breed her OUT to a typey male in order to get more carriers to work with. Assuming all went well it would be a 1-time breeding in which I would keep the best-typed bub(s) to continue the TH line with.

Since tail-deformities are obvious from so early on it would be easy to cull any bubs with kinks, right? Would non-kinked babies still be at risk for spinal deformities or only the kinked ones?

I'm just so bummed because it feels like I've been waiting forever to get some TH babies and now that I've got them they BOTH have deformities! If it's possible to salvage them I would like to. This is so depressing. 

I hope there is a TH boy in the last litter I'm waiting on so I won't have to fret about kinked tails and shriveled ears!


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

If you breed a mouse with kinked tails, chances are you will get more kinked tails in your line.


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

Ugh!

Oh well, patience is a virtue, right? *sigh* I guess I'll have to stick with breeding my new carriers instead and hope that the kinked tail is from the Fuzzy line and not the TH. :/


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Stina said:


> Combining "too many" recessive genes in it of itself does NOT cause genetic problems....period. What *can* make it seem that way is inbreeding bringing out hidden problems.
> 
> Yes, 'brings out' or 'bringing out', as you paraphrased what I said, as I did not say 'caused'. It's the harmful recessive that may 'cause' the problem when inbreeding 'brings it out' by doubling up the gene that causes the problem.
> 
> Is it possible that the kinked tail indicates the presence of whatever gene/s that cause manx? I thought I remembered someone saying something about that at some point.


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

Moustress, if I end up with an Earless Hairless Satin Fuzzy Manx I think my head might explode. ROFL!

No matter what happens I'm still excited that I got some TH babies and I'm going to totally spoil them like the precious little babies that they are. :mrgreen:


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

WAHOO!!! I just checked on my youngest litter of possible TH bubs and there are 2 more TH!!!  The best part is that NEITHER of them have any physical defects. To top the cake, it's a boy and a girl! Woot!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

> Yes, 'brings out' or 'bringing out', as you paraphrased what I said, as I did not say 'caused'. It's the harmful recessive that may 'cause' the problem when inbreeding 'brings it out' by doubling up the gene that causes the problem.


I worded myself poorly...my point was that it is not the combining of "too many recessives" that somehow brings out genetic problems.....it is INBREEDING that can do so, _IF _genetic problems are present. Combining recessives does not always require heavy or close inbreeding, and as such, is NOT responsible for bringing out problems...



> Is it possible that the kinked tail indicates the presence of whatever gene/s that cause manx? I thought I remembered someone saying something about that at some point.


In my experiences with manx so far, I have NEVER had a non-manx related to manx have any sort of kinks or tail abnormailities.


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

I used to be against inbreeding because I thought it caused problems, but in truth it helps to PREVENT defects. By inbreeding it allows you to discover hidden recessives(such as kinked tails and deformed ears) and remove them from breeding and continue on with only the healthiest of babies.

Because of the pairing I did I was able to learn that there is at least one recessive that could cause potential health issues in the TH line, assuming it came from the TH side of the family. Since I have 2 healthy deformity-free TH mice to work with now I can breed them instead of the 2 deformed babies and their parents. Also, in the future, I will know to watch out for and cull any babies with tail kinks or ear deformities. Eventually the genes should be able to be bred out of the line so long as I remove any mice from breeding that express the gene or have offspring that do. Correct?


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Yes, that's correct


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

love2read said:


> I used to be against inbreeding because I thought it caused problems, but in truth it helps to PREVENT defects. By inbreeding it allows you to discover hidden recessives(such as kinked tails and deformed ears) and remove them from breeding and continue on with only the healthiest of babies.
> 
> Inbreeding is risky when you have meeces whose background you aren't familiar with, or have no pedigree or other info. I did not do much in the way of inbreeding until I had proven to myself that I had healthy lines with which to work.
> 
> ...


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

Mousetress- that's why I'm trying to stick to breeding my TH only to PEW and any offspring I keep from them are solely for the purpose of breeding more TH and no other color/variation. Due to my limited number of mice other fur types(Fuzzy, Angora, Satin, etc...) manage to get into the mix, but those offspring will not be bred back to other varieties, only TH.

Even with just 2 generations I've already managed to make alot of progress is the size of my TH carriers. Larger bodies and nice, long, thick tails are usually indicative of a healthy mouse and my goal is to breed TH that are just as healthy and robust as the other varieties that are bred in the mouse community. 

I was recently contacted by another breeder and told that I should sell my TH bubs for $50 each and carriers for $25 and I refused. The reason being that I didn't feel that they are worth $50. Why should we charge MORE for a variety that hasn't been around long enough to be proven healthy, is already known to be prone to health issues, and isn't even CLOSE to being show-type? It makes no sense. If anything they should be CHEAPER.

Now, if only I could find more nice PEW! I've only got 1 show-type PEW standard buck to work with.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

:thumbuo I like the way you think!


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

As these kinked tails are obviously genetic and recessive, even if you don't get kinked tailed mice in your original outcross, you'll then be inbreeding those mice to get typier THs, meaning inbreeding the kink issue.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

> I was recently contacted by another breeder and told that I should sell my TH bubs for $50 each and carriers for $25 and I refused. The reason being that I didn't feel that they are worth $50. Why should we charge MORE for a variety that hasn't been around long enough to be proven healthy, is already known to be prone to health issues, and isn't even CLOSE to being show-type? It makes no sense. If anything they should be CHEAPER.


While I don't agree with the price suggested...I do disagree with your line of reasoning...the fact that it IS prone to health issues is a reason to charge more than others, as it discourages those who would breed them irresponsibly from doing so. Such rare varieties are looked at by many as a money making scheme....hairless USED to be easy to find in the reptile community b/c people bred them unscrupulously to make a quick buck and ended up causing WAY more problems in the lines by knowing breeding animals that died young and weren't healthy....if you sell them cheaper than regular mice the same thing will happen again...someone will see it as a cheap opportunity to make money by selling to reptile people and ruin the trait again (just 5 years ago hairless was fairly easy to find....the past couple years its been nigh on impossible). Charge more and be very careful who you rehome to (especially with breeders). I wouldn't charge $50 (b/c that'll make them look like even more of a money maker)...but more than normal. That's my opnion anyway. The purpose isn't to make money off them or anything...just to discourage people looking to make a quick buck and make it known that they are not an easy variety to produce.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

love2read said:


> I used to be against inbreeding because I thought it caused problems, but in truth it helps to PREVENT defects. By inbreeding it allows you to discover hidden recessives(such as kinked tails and deformed ears) and remove them from breeding and continue on with only the healthiest of babies.


I just got started meeting other breeders, and one of them loves to tell the story of how she took over a line from another breeder, and the mice were "grossly inbred" to the point where severe neuro issues were uncovered. Gorgeous mice, but horrible problems... As a result, they're only letting those mice going to "outcrosses only".... but by doing that, they're only perpetuating the problem, instead of weeding it out and getting rid of it! Really bugs me, and scares me that the breeder will pass out these "outcross only" mice, and I might end up with this a few generations down the line.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

err...yeah....those mice should not be bred at all...or outcrossed once and inbred to remove the problem....


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

The problems include lower fertility, small left eyes, seizures and death. Since the lower fertility is one of the problems, even those these mice are pretty, great type, awesome color, this line should be allowed to die out. But what do I know?


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

with that info I would agree....with that many problems definitely better to let the line die out then mix all those problems into other lines with outcrossing.....


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I'd be inclined to NOT sell at any price, but adopt to any breeder that could be trusted to be conservative and ethical about keeping the meeces in question confined to their own efforts at trying to improve the health of that variety. I would never have sold or given one of the satins I had bred back in say 1999 or 2000. They were heart-breakingly awful, so many babies died, so many does with problems....such short lives.

When I did place one of my satin fawns a year and a half ago, I was confident of the does health and fitness for breeding, even though the buyer did not plan to breed. I have no way of knowing whether a buyer will honor that intent, and would never place an animal that wasn't fit to breed.

Nowadays I'd place just about any of my meeces with confidence that whatever use they were put to, they wouldn't, in and of themselves, pass any grievous defects on in any breeding that might occur.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Right now I'm not rehoming anything (I want my current mutt lines to truely be my own before I do)...but if I was, I would sell offspring to people I haven't already worked with (with careful screening)....b/c I don't want to be stingy with what I have and what's in the hobby. I rarely give much away for free....I just can't afford to. Getting money for them helps to pay for the hobby....in the long run no matter what I charge for them I am still paying more to produce and raise them then I would ever get back. I don't breed to keep what I have to myself and a select few...I breed b/c I love the animals I produce and want to share that love with others.

At any rate...regarding hairless, they CAN have problems...but not all of them do. Of the few I've had so far I haven't personally noticed anything that affects their overall well being at all......they've had clear skin and mostly clear eyes....besides the lack of hair the only visible abnormalities I've noticed is wrinkled skin and long toenails.


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