# Ripped off



## Kingnoel

Well discovered yesterday that all my lovely splashes and tricolors were illegally acquired against contract. The holder of the original lines says I should never have been sold these mice. I've been told if I do anything with them I'm risking my rep in the mouse community! Euthanasia for my whole collection was my only option.

Of course I'm heartbroken and figure this was a sign that show mouse breeding is not for me.

I hate rip off people, bad Kharma will come to you!

Sorry but just needed to vent (and say goodbye). I have enjoyed my time on this board, good luck all.


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## Loganberry

That's ridiculous - once you've bought the stock, they're yours. And contracts?? What are you American breeders up to over there? They're mice! It sounds way too complicated.


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## SarahY

This has actually made me sick :evil: Tell them they can 'F' off; those are *YOUR* mice, you own them and you didn't sign any contract with that idiot!

I know it's nothing to do with me but I'm really angry about this. What an unreasonable, pompous, trumped up little turd, have they really got nothing better to do than make innocent people's lives miserable by bullying and imposing their ridiculous ideas on them?!

Don't stand for it mate, I wouldn't. It's blatant bullying, especially as this situation is not your fault :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## Loganberry

Hope you havent culled them yet. And it's not even the person you bought the mice from, it's the person before that. Screw them.


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## SarahY

Yep. :sminigun


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## Loganberry

SarahY said:


> Yep. :sminigun


 Yeah!!! :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob :fglob


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## SarahY

I just can't believe the audacity of it. How _dare_ they?! It's not like *you* broke their contract!


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## Seawatch Stud

I haven't posted in months......just had to say God bless America! Contracts for mice. What an endless appetite you people have for giving each other a hard time. Keep it up.


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## Kingnoel

Thanks everyone, I haven't and won't cull them. I just can't do it! You're right Seawatch, we are a little ridiculous over here, what is it coming to when people want this much control? This gal apparently wants to control the tri's over here, not gonna happen  
My "rep" can stand the hit, I feel I did nothing wrong.


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## SarahY

Good for you Kingnoel


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## SarahY

Breed loads and loads and spread them all around the country, that'll teach her  :lol:


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## Rhasputin

Good for you! Don't cull those mice!


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## m137b

Screw that. Do what you want, they're yours! This is the type of petty immature crap I can't stand. They're just mice, you should tell her to get over herself.



SarahY said:


> Breed loads and loads and spread them all around the country, that'll teach her  :lol:


NOW THAT'S A GOOD IDEA :lol: :lol:


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## Viry

I aggree with SarahY. Don't cull them - spread them around the country instead. They're yours, you've bought them and you're the one caring for them. They're worth more than what that woman seems to think, way more. Argh! Anger.


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## jadeguppy

The argument for contracts that has been given to me was that the person has worked hard to get the mice to the point that they are and want to ensure that only serious people that will keep the line in top show condition will get their mice. Otherwise they feel their name as a breeder may be sullied if people say it is a ____ decendent mouse and the line was no longer up to show quality.

I'm not a fan of contract and only know of a few people who use them. At least one of those people says he/she has paid for a shipment of mice from Europe, which is very pricy. I don't think they want to have paid all that money to turn around and have the otherwise non-exsistent in the US genetics spread around willie nilly. It is a control game and I think it does limit the ability of the hobby to spread. FWIW, I would find it an honor if people wanted my mice and would be happy to share.


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## tinyhartmouseries

If YOU are not under contract, then YOU aren't legally obligated to do anything. Furthermore, I would like to see lawyers even brought into this issue. The fault lies soley on the person who sold them to you.


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## Rhasputin

tinyhartmouseries said:


> If YOU are not under contract, then YOU aren't legally obligated to do anything. Furthermore, I would like to see lawyers even brought into this issue. The fault lies soley on the person who sold them to you.


Lawyers have been brought into a similar issue, and the contracts don't hold up in a court or law.


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## m137b

Rhasputin said:


> Lawyers have been brought into a similar issue, and the contracts don't hold up in a court or law.


It's pathetic the lengths some people will go to over something so trivial.

If you sell a mouse you give up the rights to make decisions about it. If your that scared other people are going to mess up your precious culls, knock em, no one can mess up a dead mouse.


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## MoonfallTheFox

I'm glad you didn't cull them. That person is out of bounds, by giving up mice they lost say in what happened to them -except- in the case of neglect or abuse. You are obviously doing neither thing AND, you got your mice from the person who was under contract. You aren't.

Keep the mice, ignore the idiot.


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## jadeguppy

The person isn't threatening to bring lawyers into it, but is threatening to ruin her reputation amoung show breeders in the US. I have a good idea who it may be and that person does have the ability to mess up someone's reputation and talk others out of selling their mice to her. However, this system will continue to exist until people start standing up against it. Honestly, I wish some of these types of comments were posed on the East Coast mouse forum (mouselovers). It would be nice to show how many people think it is wrong and discourage the use instead of the incouragement of the use of contracts that I often hear. Most of the contracts I have heard about state that you can't sell babies until after the third generation.

BTW, How did the original seller even find out that you have some of the babies? Do you plan on showing? If not, I doubt your mice will ever be seen as up to standards by them anyways. If you know of anyone traveling my way, I'd be happy to take a few little ones off your hands.


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## SarahY

> However, this system will continue to exist until people start standing up against it.


Absolutely right, and the American mouse fancy will utterly fail to thrive


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## Kingnoel

The person did not threaten to sue,just ruin my rep. She found out because I contacted her (didn't know better), about the type of c dilute in the lines. I had planned on showing down the line but probably won't now (tries to get bad taste out of mouth, lol).
By the way, I'm a he  and am a retired biologist with over fifty years of animal husbandry experience. Part of my upper course work was inspection of animal facilities for the University of Davis to ensure adherence to PETA guidelines.
I care deeply and carefully for all my animals and take all their care very seriously. I just feel badly that I stepped in it without knowing it.
These mice are 3 to 4 generations removed from hers but that was never inquired about. I was told flat out I had no right to them and should euthanize them all if I didn't want my rep ruined. I feel I've already been tried and convicted without even having a say.  
I do understand the purpose of a contract, I show dogs and they are essential when talking of animals worth thousands....


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## tinyhartmouseries

Kingnoel, what sort of dogs do you show?

Also, if the mice are 3-4 gens removed, then the original owner had every right to make a decision to adopt them to you, per her own contract. Was it in the contract that the original breeder had to approve every adoption of the secondary breeder? I don't believe this holds up for her for a second. after three generations, a mouse is considered to be of the mousery that bred it.

Your reputation may be ruined with her and with the 5-10 people that follow her blindly. Lucky for you, there are many more who don't care at all. If anything, you should save the communications wherein she threatens to libel/disparage your reputation. That seems more illegal than anything in this situation.


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## Rhasputin

Your reputation is in no way ruined, and won't be. Me, and many other people who have commented here, are part of the mousing community, and I'm sure all of us would without question sell mice to you.


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## Rhasputin

tinyhartmouseries said:


> \
> Your reputation may be ruined with her and with the 5-10 people that follow her blindly.


Luckily, the numbers are more like 2 at best.


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## tinyhartmouseries

ooh


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## SarahY

> Your reputation may be ruined with her and with the 5-10 people that follow her blindly. Lucky for you, there are many more who don't care at all.


Exactly what I was about to say. There are many Americans on here who know the score, don't fret about it. Just be patient. Her circle of influence will get smaller and smaller as more and more people end up in this same situation 



> I was told flat out I had no right to them and should euthanize them all if I didn't want my rep ruined.


I am in no way 'fluffy' and I kill my mice for the good of the stud, but she told you had to KILL ANIMALS to keep a good reputation?! Keeping one's reputation intact is no justification for killing healthy animals! This person must be meglomanically insane :shock:


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## SarahY

> Your reputation is in no way ruined, and won't be. Me, and many other people who have commented here, are part of the mousing community, and I'm sure all of us would without question sell mice to you.


 :scool


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## Kingnoel

Tiny hearts, I raise and show Papillons. 
Thanks again everyone for the encouragement, I think I'll just continue on with them and enjoy!


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## WoodWitch

jadeguppy said:


> I wish some of these types of comments were posed on the East Coast mouse forum (mouselovers). It would be nice to show how many people think it is wrong


Perhaps you could post a link to this thread on the ECMF for them all to see!

Honestly, what nonsense!

We (The NMC) aquired our first Tris in the not too distant past, and breeding them was the responsibility of the first, privilliged few. No one here is hanging on to them or selfishly claiming them. They are given willingly amongst club members and the fancy as a whole will ensure that they are bred and kept thriving. How stupid to keep them to one's self!

Perhaps the 'original breeder' isn't so good and is afraid of a little competition


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## moustress

Geez, I said something earlier today in another thread about the US scene being full of half baked orifices, was a little sorry, now I think I understated the concept.

I'd ignore the warning and do what I wanted with the meeces. It's their reputation that is now exposed to scrutiny, not yours.


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## maddeh

Completely off subject, but I would love to see some pictures of your papillons! They are one of my favourite breeds, and hopefully I will have one someday!  
Other than that, am completely shocked by the whole situation here, and am very glad you didn't go ahead and cull!


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## Rhasputin

You're very fortunate to be online with your mousey business. If you weren't, then all those poor mice would be. . .


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## MoonfallTheFox

You also obviously know what you are doing. Dear breeder, if you don't want your lines spread, keep your mice to yourself.

There is no way she will wreck your reputation, there is a huge group of people on this site who will stand up for you and many very good breeders (some with tris!) who would be willing to give you mice. You can keep going. That other breeder will quickly be obsolete if this is how they act in business. To take innocent, healthy lives, especially of such BEAUTIFUL mice (I love tris) is the biggest waste I can think of and anyone who condones that is nuts, and most certainly not caring about animals.


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## WoodWitch

Have split importing mice from Europe to a new topic  
Here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9143


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## Kingnoel

*maddeh*
Hey there, you can see my dogs at Kingnoel.com. Thanks for the interest!


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## Kingnoel

Oops, sorry wrong thread :?


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