# Hello - and a request for Gremlin mice to help patients



## Klink

Hello Everyone from Seattle
I am here both as an enjoyer of rodents and as a genetics researcher. I am fascinated by the many and diverse appearances of mice that all of you report and share - not just for the pleasure that they bring but also from the standpoint of the interesting and complex contribution of genes. And I can see from many posts that lots of you on the forum also have an interest and understanding in genetics - I guess a necessity for a good breeder!

Anyway, to give you a little background on me and why I am 'here'&#8230;...my research is aimed at trying to identify and understand the genes that cause various human malformations - particularly those that affect the head / face. It is remarkable that the same genes that cause many common facial defects in patients also are responsible for roughly similar presentations in mice. For example, we have been studying the dumbo presentation in mice and rats - with which many of you will likely be familiar. The gene responsible also causes a specific human syndrome and we think may also be responsible for other types of ear abnormalities in patients. These studies have got me very interested in another striking ear 'mutant' mouse that some folks occasionally report - the Gremlin mouse. The odd positioning of one ear and occasional asymmetric face closely resembles a remarkably common disorder in children. Unfortunately for patients there is little known about what causes the problem - with these kids having to face many major facial surgeries to correct the problem. I really think the Gremlin mice could help us understand the cause of this common facial disorder. And so I would like to hear from and talk to anyone that has one or more Gremlin mice? I am very keen to try and identify the gene responsible so that it may increase our understanding of how this condition arises and therefore provide some assurance or hope to patients and their families that better treatments may be possible in the future.

Thanks for your time and any assistance that you may provide! I look forward to enjoying more wonderful pictures and stories from you all!


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## Miceandmore64

Good luck


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## SarahC

I've got one at the minute.I'm undecided on keeping it.I want the mouse for it's colour but don't want to breed the defect in.Just waiting for a new camera to arrive.When it does I'll post a picture of it.They turn up fairly frequently.Always been just the one ear in mine,never both.


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## Autumn2005

Hi and welcome! I think it's interesting that you're involved in research. I'm taking a Laboratory Animal Medicine and Care class right now (RVT major) so I'm just learning about the research world. It's been really fascinating, and I've been thinking about going into that field now. I suppose you've already tried looking at animal models from places like Charles River and such? They don't happen to have a "gremlin" model?


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## Klink

That's great - I didn't expect anyone to have one right away. Thought it was going to be a long shot.

I look forward to seeing the photo. 
In a normal circumstance when you decide not to keep an oddity, how do you deal with it? 
If it turns up fairly frequently in your breedings, you may have the genetic defect in one or more of your stocks. 
If my suspicions are correct, this may not be caused by your 'typical' genetic mutation but instead what is known as a 'regulatory mutation'. There are different types but some have very variable impact. Although usually recessive in nature, not all mice carrying two copies of the mutation will present with the feature - which makes it tricky to both follow or breed out.

Do you keep records or pedigrees of all your breedings? Sorry I do not know what the norm is for fancy breeders.
I am excited to hear more though.



SarahC said:


> I've got one at the minute.I'm undecided on keeping it.I want the mouse for it's colour but don't want to breed the defect in.Just waiting for a new camera to arrive.When it does I'll post a picture of it.They turn up fairly frequently.Always been just the one ear in mine,never both.


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## Klink

Hi and thanks for the welcome! 
I hope you enjoy the class - there is so much to know, but still a lot that we don't.

Yes, I have some colleagues at the Jackson labs - they generally only keep/maintain those with features that breed true. The do have a line called "gremlin" but it is a completely different mouse to the fancy Gremlin. I suspect Charles River only keep those that are relevant for other diseases.

Good luck with the study.



Autumn2005 said:


> Hi and welcome! I think it's interesting that you're involved in research. I'm taking a Laboratory Animal Medicine and Care class right now (RVT major) so I'm just learning about the research world. It's been really fascinating, and I've been thinking about going into that field now. I suppose you've already tried looking at animal models from places like Charles River and such? They don't happen to have a "gremlin" model?


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## Onyx

I have a Gremlin mouse which I absolutely adore. She was taken on from a forum member here. I'm sure she wouldn't mind giving some more info on her when she sees this request.

Squonk has been posted about a fair amount on here, as I always include her and her young in my updates.
She is a large PEW from show stock. She has a lovely type, apart from her ear, and a great character. She rules the roost in the box she is in.
I paired her with an unrelated show type PEW buck and she had a healthy litter of standard and satin.
Those young have been paired together and are currently sexually active. Fingers crossed we shall have some litters from those young within a few weeks. 
I believe no one (reported) has successfully reproduced the mutation by breeding but I'm giving it a go regardless out of curiosity. The young are great show type anyway and will make a nice addition to my show lines as they are healthier and bigger than what I currently have. And if I do manage to get Gremlins back from the young, that'll be hugely interesting.


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## Klink

Thanks Onyx!

If your buck is normal then I suspect you will get a normal healthy litter. Most likely, I think you'd need to have the buck also being a Gremlin - and even then you may not see all affected if there truly is "partial penetrance". I have found one example presented in a different forum (an old post from a number of years ago) where the trait was passed from mother to son, so I know it is possible - the buck in this case was from the same stock so probably carried a copy of the mutation.

Good luck with the new litter!

****


Onyx said:


> I have a Gremlin mouse which I absolutely adore. She was taken on from a forum member here. I'm sure she wouldn't mind giving some more info on her when she sees this request.
> 
> Squonk has been posted about a fair amount on here, as I always include her and her young in my updates.
> She is a large PEW from show stock. She has a lovely type, apart from her ear, and a great character. She rules the roost in the box she is in.
> I paired her with an unrelated show type PEW buck and she had a healthy litter of standard and satin.
> Those young have been paired together and are currently sexually active. Fingers crossed we shall have some litters from those young within a few weeks.
> I believe no one (reported) has successfully reproduced the mutation by breeding but I'm giving it a go regardless out of curiosity. The young are great show type anyway and will make a nice addition to my show lines as they are healthier and bigger than what I currently have. And if I do manage to get Gremlins back from the young, that'll be hugely interesting.


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## Onyx

I find it quite interesting. I'll be sure to update whether we do or don't get any in this next litter. I would love to find a gremlin buck to test that out too. I'll maybe put the word out though I imagine many would simply roll their eyes at me .


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## Miceandmore64

I wouldn't just like to say im awesome XD know one posted so I said "good luck" then people saw it and posted


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## Klink

I agree - awesome for starting the ball rolling!
Much appreciated. 



Miceandmore64 said:


> I wouldn't just like to say im awesome XD know one posted so I said "good luck" then people saw it and posted


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## Cait

I am the breeder that Onyx got her gremlin doe from. I have photos of the doe as a pinky as well as at weaning age, and Maddie (Onyx) has more recent photos. What sort of things would you like to know? The dam of the gremlin doe was a PEW (albino) and the sire a cream (a/a B/* c^e/c D/* P/*). The dam came to me pregnant from another breeder and gave birth to only two babies. One was the PEW gremlin doe and the other a cream buck (normal ears).


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## love2read

I've had 2 Gremlins born over the past couple years. The first was a BEW with a facial deformity that made him look like a Gremlin, but it effected half of his face, including his nose, not just his ear.

The other boy was born about a month ago and he looks to be a true Gremlin. No facial deformities, just a normal ear and a Dumbo ear.

Both popped up randomly. I kept the first boy and bred him to his mom, sisters, and later his daughters to see if it was genetic. It wasn't. I plan to breed the new boy back to his mom and sister because I want to get more of his color. He's a Lilac Agouti from Red(Ay) lines, so he has really high red tones. I've dubbed the color "Red Agouti".


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## Cait

I forgot to mention, I've also bred another gremlin, many years ago. It was a blue satin astrex doe. She had babies but the ear positioning was not reproduced. I have a photo of her too somewhere if photos are of use to you.


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## Klink

Thanks "love2read". They are both very very cute!

I am interested in both those where the ear is just affected and those where the whole half of the face is affected. I currently have three lines maintained that I am studying but each are different from each other (and caused by different genes) and also different from the Gremlin photos I have seen - mostly because the ears are unique in the Gremlins, although more similar to the Dumbo ears as many of you have pointed out.

Just some food for thought&#8230;. most of the Dumbos I have looked at just have their ears affected (and eyes sometimes) but I have also have seen the full side of the face affected in a small number. In our other two lines, sometime both ears are affected equally, sometimes one ear only, sometimes one whole side of the face is affected, while in others the snout is just short but straight, and some look almost normal. And the percentage of each type differs in each line. We may see higher percentages of these presentations because these mice have been selected over many generations of inbreeding just for this trait and not the glorious coat colors and genetic diversity that you all generate. I suspect if we bred ours with different lines we might lose (or at least find it difficult to maintain because of reduced presentation) the trait.

Anyway, when you get Gremlins like this, you mentioned you do some initial breeding. But after that, do you typically hold on to them until old age or do you sell them on?

I ask as my goal is to do some genetics on them (to track down the cause) which would require a lot of breeding. The best chances of getting some heritability is if I can get both a doe and buck with the trait. An alternative and much quicker method to potentially get the answer is to sequence the entire DNA (genome) of some Gremlins. I have done this successfully already on some of of other mutants to find the gene causing the problem. It is not cheap, but if it reveals clues as to basis of the human conditions, then I think it is worth it. I have some private funding that can be used for this purpose. Such an approach has fewer ethical conundrums in mice (because mice are not concerned with knowing what their DNA reveals!) and also proving something is the cause requires additional breeding which is clearly not realistic in humans. To do this, all I would need is some DNA - which can be obtained from any bit of tissue. This can most easily (and non-invasively) be obtained from an animal after it has died of natural causes or died prematurely because of some other issue.

I know and understand that everyone gets attached to their wonderful animals, but if you are interested in selling your beautiful little boy at some stage (before he is past breeding age) I would be very interested in him. Alternatively, when he finally passes away - obviously some (long) time down the road - I would still likely be interested in obtaining him, albeit in a frozen state. I can/will pay for all shipping of course.

Sorry if I have put anyone off by my strange scientific interests - it is not my intention. I just want to find a way to help families both understand what causes their child to be born with these types of issues and hopefully one day minimize the corrective surgeries needed, improve outcomes of treatments, or to work on ways to prevent the problem before it occurs.

Thanks again


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## Klink

Thanks Cait.

Please see my last post reply to "love2read" regarding seeking one or more affected buck(s) and doe(s), or if not possible, a deceased Gremlin (frozen), whenever their time comes.

Even so, I would still be interested in seeing other gremlin photos so I can get a good idea of the variability in presentation - if it is not too much hassle to find.

Cheers


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## Cait

Klink said:


> To do this, all I would need is some DNA - which can be obtained from any bit of tissue. This can most easily (and non-invasively) be obtained from an animal after it has died of natural causes or died prematurely because of some other issue.
> 
> I know and understand that everyone gets attached to their wonderful animals, but if you are interested in selling your beautiful little boy at some stage (before he is past breeding age) I would be very interested in him. Alternatively, when he finally passes away - obviously some (long) time down the road - I would still likely be interested in obtaining him, albeit in a frozen state. I can/will pay for all shipping of course.
> 
> Sorry if I have put anyone off by my strange scientific interests - it is not my intention.


Whereabouts are you located? I am just thinking of the logistics of shipping either live or frozen mice to you. Most people on this forum are from the UK or US.

I also feel that I should say that you won't offend UK-based (or most US-based) show breeders by talking about dead mice  Most of us cull our litters down and also cull ill adults when needed. Which brings me to another point: getting male gremlins. The reason most of the gremlins you hear about from show breeders are female is because we often cull all or most bucks from our litters. We would certainly not grow on a buck with a defect unless we were particularly interested in it or looking for it for some reason (which would be very unusual). If there had been more than two in the litter containing my recent gremlin she would probably have been culled, because I want the show quality does to exhibit and later breed from.


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## Cait

Here are some photos of the doe I gave to Maddie:


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## Klink

I am in Seattle. Frozen mice shouldn't be an issue but am not sure about live ones. Have you done this before? Are there any customs issues that you know of? I can do some asking around here as I am sure some of my colleagues have received live animals from the UK before, although probably from regulated pathogen-free facilities.

Thanks for the reassurance! I assumed this would be the case but always like to tread carefully until properly informed!

I did not appreciate the extent of culling of the bucks. In the event that none are available or appear in litters anytime soon, I'd be happy with a doe - although more than one would be preferable (live or dead) to get the project started. Sourcing them from different places seems like the way it will need to go, so any you have pop up I would accept!

And thank you for sharing the other great pictures!



Cait said:


> Whereabouts are you located? I am just thinking of the logistics of shipping either live or frozen mice to you. Most people on this forum are from the UK or US.
> 
> I also feel that I should say that you won't offend UK-based (or most US-based) show breeders by talking about dead mice  Most of us cull our litters down and also cull ill adults when needed. Which brings me to another point: getting male gremlins. The reason most of the gremlins you hear about from show breeders are female is because we often cull all or most bucks from our litters. We would certainly not grow on a buck with a defect unless we were particularly interested in it or looking for it for some reason (which would be very unusual). If there had been more than two in the litter containing my recent gremlin she would probably have been culled, because I want the show quality does to exhibit and later breed from.


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## Cait

I have sent live mice to the States before but it was very expensive. I don't know if it would be classed as a normal expense if you're in the research 'business' though. Shipping within the States is around $100-150 I believe, so much more affordable. I have no idea about sending frozen specimens though; not something anyone's ever asked me!


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## love2read

It shouldn't be hard to ship a frozen mouse. They sell kits for it on this sugar glider website(for sending them off for necropsies) : http://www.thegliderinitiative.org/tgistore.htm

If I am able to reproduce any more, I'll be sure to let you know. If not, and I no longer need the boy for breeding in the future, I'll give you a heads up.


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## Klink

Yes, I am expecting it to be a little expensive. It would be great if there were some available in the US but I am prepared to deal with the cost of getting them in from the UK (whether live or dead/frozen). If/when one is available, is it best to contact you through your contact email on your website?



Cait said:


> I have sent live mice to the States before but it was very expensive. I don't know if it would be classed as a normal expense if you're in the research 'business' though. Shipping within the States is around $100-150 I believe, so much more affordable. I have no idea about sending frozen specimens though; not something anyone's ever asked me!


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## Klink

Thanks "love2read". My suggestion would be something simpler but this is good (and perhaps a more reliable way of getting through customs!)

Please do let me know if you produce any more or don't need your boy.



love2read said:


> It shouldn't be hard to ship a frozen mouse. They sell kits for it on this sugar glider website(for sending them off for necropsies) : http://www.thegliderinitiative.org/tgistore.htm
> 
> If I am able to reproduce any more, I'll be sure to let you know. If not, and I no longer need the boy for breeding in the future, I'll give you a heads up.


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## Cait

Klink said:


> Yes, I am expecting it to be a little expensive. It would be great if there were some available in the US but I am prepared to deal with the cost of getting them in from the UK (whether live or dead/frozen). If/when one is available, is it best to contact you through your contact email on your website?


Would it be easier to find a UK lab that would do the DNA/sampling for you and provide the results, rather than finding a reliable way to ship frozen mice to the US? It's up to Maddie as the gremlin is hers now but I have no problem whatsoever with you taking the body when she dies or is culled to further your research. I would be interested in the results! I can PM you my email address and if I get another I'll let you know. Is it only gremlins you need for this research or any type of facial/ear deformity? You mentioned very short faces before and I've seen a few breeders get those before too.


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## love2read

Just an FYI, I'm in the US(Ohio, to be more precise).


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## Klink

I do know someone in Manchester whom I could possibly ask, although having the body will also allow other assessments to be done (some measurements and imaging - as per attached). Yes, I would consider looking at other facial and ear deformities. I have a number with very short upper faces - so much so that their teeth do not properly align (malocclusion or underbite) and because mouse incisors continually grow they do not get worn down as they should and so have to be trimmed regularly and given special food. Each of the lines I have breed true (mostly recessives) which make them easier to study, hence the preference to get Gremlins breeding. I am always interested in seeing new short face mice and any other odd facial or ear deformities so if folks have any pop up in their breeding I would be keen to see photos - and I am happy to image anything! My concern is whether I have the resources and time to pursue the genetics behind anything other than my current lines and gremlins. I always want to look at them all but unfortunately have to be realistic.

and thanks&#8230;I got your email.



Cait said:


> Would it be easier to find a UK lab that would do the DNA/sampling for you and provide the results, rather than finding a reliable way to ship frozen mice to the US? It's up to Maddie as the gremlin is hers now but I have no problem whatsoever with you taking the body when she dies or is culled to further your research. I would be interested in the results! I can PM you my email address and if I get another I'll let you know. Is it only gremlins you need for this research or any type of facial/ear deformity? You mentioned very short faces before and I've seen a few breeders get those before too.


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## Klink

Great - 'relatively' close! ;D



love2read said:


> Just an FYI, I'm in the US(Ohio, to be more precise).


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## Cait

Wow, that image is like something from a horror film! I understand about the time and cost involved in pursuing all the different possibilities. But I suppose you can make the decision of whether to investigate based on photos of the mice involved. Good luck


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## Onyx

Gosh, only checked back at this, sorry!

Squonk (Our Gremlin) has become part of the "family". I have no "pet" mice and have a no-name rule in my mousery, but she is something else. I'd find it really hard to part with her whilst living. I do not mind her body being passed on after death though. My partner recently "helpfully" wiped my PC and I am still trying to recover my old mouse photographs, when I do, I'll get some posted up. As great as she is, she is a bugger to photograph. One of those that refuses to stay still lol


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## Onyx

An old picture, taken a day or two after giving birth. She's back to being a chubby, cheeky, queen bee now


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## Klink

Thanks Onyx! I completely understand - I would feel the same way. And looking at that face, who wouldn't? But I will be delighted to receive her when the time comes. If I can work out how to send a private message, I can send you my email contact for later!

Regards.



Onyx said:


> An old picture, taken a day or two after giving birth. She's back to being a chubby, cheeky, queen bee now


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## Miceandmore64

To send a private message (PM) when ona forum you can look at the bottom of the post it says PM am email push PM. Or ona profile somewhere t says contact am then PM or email.
Email will only come up I that user doesn't have settings on for email to not come up.


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## Onyx

Gosh I'm so sorry, this is me just sitting down and remembering I promised some pictures so I dropped my crochet and got the camera out for you. Not the best pictures at all. One of her own young, a pregnant doe, wanted out too so she's in the pics also.


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## Klink

Thanks Onyx!


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## love2read

I know this is old, but if you're still looking for Gremlin, I just had another one pop up. Shoot me a message if you're still looking.


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