# A matter of creams, black tans and chocolate foxes.



## Megzilla (Oct 12, 2009)

I did a test breed for someone with some mice I bought a while ago that i'm about to sell, and out popped 3 chocolate foxes.
The parents are a cream buck and a black tan doe. Now i'm guessing the cream is a cch/cch as apposed to c/ce like I was told. Can blacks carry cch without it diluting their colour? She's really quite dark and has a good tan on her, but this put question marks in my mind.

By my thoughts I'm guessing their codes are as such
Sire- Ay* Bb cch/cch D* pp
Dam-aa Bb C/cch D* P*

Does a cream with cch/cch have to have Ay? Are there any other codes which could cause the mouse to be cream, or does it have to be either Ay* B* cch/cch D* P*/pp or aa B* c/ce D* P*/pp (i'm getting this from the list of colours and codes on the forum)

(**edited to say fox instead of tan)


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Cream is one of those colors where the standard has changed over time in different areas, and thus the formulation has changed as well. So, I guess it depends on where you look...


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

What's making you question the genetic make-up of the cream? If your black and cream both carry chocolate you'd get chocolate tans in the litter.

If the father was Ay/* and the mother was black tan at/* you'd get sables, so that is unlikely. Does the cream have pink or black eyes? If he has black eyes then he's probably c/ce as the ce gene brings in the black eyes. If he's pink eyed he could well be a/a cch/cch p/p. I have some of these in my Abyssinian line, it's a lovely pale clotted cream colour as opposed to the milk colour English black eyed creams are.

Sarah xxx


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Hang on - your thread title says chocolate foxes but your post says chocolate tans? If they're foxes then they could be at/a cch/cch (sepia fox) or at/a ce/ce (stone fox). Dad's eye colour will still give the best clue.

Sarah xxx


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## Megzilla (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm interested, and I love to learn about these things, but need back up on my info (hence why i'm asking you guys)  Plus I have a lovely show cream satin who i'm outcrossing to my astrex along with PEW show so it'll help me understand and figure things better (I think about mice and genetics most parts of the day!)

I thought that there were only two codes (4 including eye colour) to making a cream. I didn't know that you could have a a/a cch/cch cream, I thought they could only be Ay* cch/cch 

He has pink eyes. See, that bit about the ce and black eyes, I didn't know that! I love little snippits of information like that! He's fairly pale though. At first glipse I thought he was a PEW, but he isn't. My other creams have that lovely rich colour.

*I'm going to edit it to say foxes, because they are lol
The two females have a fairly dark 'chocolate' to them-more true to form, but the buck's top colour is lighter. I'll take pictures tomorrow.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

These are all the ways I can think of right now to make 'creams':

Black eyed:
Ay/* dd (the very first creams exhibited)
Ay/* cch/cch (the second version of cream)
a/a c/ce (the modern black eyed cream, although most of them are much too pale to be _cream_ in my humble opinion :lol: )

Pink Eyed:
Ay/* cch/cch p/p (the original pink eyed cream)
a/a cch/cch p/p
a/a ce/ce p/p

I'll probably think of more later.

Unless he has the red gene obesity and poor type he's probably a/a cch/cch p/p, so your chocolate foxes are most likely sepia foxes. My PECs all looked like PEWs too until they were about 10 weeks old, now they just keep getting darker.

Sarah xxx


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## Megzilla (Oct 12, 2009)

Took some pictures a day or two ago. The lighter one is the buck

What makes a sepia? Sorry I am an ocean of questions ):


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## Paula (Jan 18, 2009)

They are little cuties!!!!


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

The Chinchilla gene affects the black pigment and turns it a shade of brown, that is called 'Sepia'

I believe that colour can be shown in some countries, but not in the UK.

K xx


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Aha. A thing to take not of as I have some sepias showing up in two of my tri litters. Thanks, Willow.

See, this is why we are told to read ALL of the posts even if we don't think it pertains to anything we are doing.

Is good thing. :arrow:


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## Megzilla (Oct 12, 2009)

Thank you Sarah, thank you Willow


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

double dose of the chinchilla gene is what makes a sepia lots of genes kicking around in this litter. not bad fox on those little ones either the white doesnt go to far up the jaw... cant see there legs well but if your want to make better fox's i'd cross these with a nice self black or chocolate with nice dark toe's as i think there toe's are white?


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## Megzilla (Oct 12, 2009)

Yeah their feet and the insides of their ears are white. I'm not wanting to work with foxes, so anyone that wants them is welcome to them xD The male is very vocal lol


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