# Manx vs Docking



## Rhasputin

I've heard a lot of fuss about manx rats and mice recently. Health problems abound, etc.

What about docking a mouse or rat's tail when they are very young?
Has anyone done that before?

Would you be opposed, or in favor of this?
Were you looking for a manx rat or mouse, would you prefer it be genetic, or docked?

I know in some places, docking the tails of dogs, and cropping their ears is illegal. The laws around mice are often very different, though.
Do you approve of docking or cropping in dogs?

I'm NOT thinking about docking my mice, lol.
I'm just asking out of curiosity, since I've seen a lot of people chatting it up about manx animals recently.


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## SarahY

I'm for docking dogs. Many working dogs are better off without a tail. Many traditionally docked breeds have been bred for so long to be without a tail that they have difficulty with one. Rotties, for example, are so powerful that they can break their own tail just by wagging it too hard. Now although that is the fault of the early breeders, the damage is done and for the dogs own comfort and safety I believe rotties should continue to be docked. But, ask me at the start of the breeds' development and I'd be against it.

I see no purpose whatsoever for docking mice, or even breeding mice without a tail. But I think manx mice are among the most pointless creatures in existance! Tails are useful! Not just for them but also for us, the handlers. Just my personal opinion, but if you want a tailless rodent, get a hamster 

Sarah xxx


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## Rhasputin

Haha, hamsters for the win!


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## SarahC

I would prefer a dog with a tail by choice.However as the owner of natural bob tail dogs for well over 20 years and with first hand experience of the awful effects of breeding for a spinal deformity, if a short tail is really the most desired thing then I would opt for docked by a vet.I really hope that those breeds of dogs that used to be docked are not now selected for natural docking.I can't think manx breeding would be popular now that we know it isn't just a case of an animal without a tail.


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## setterchick

I am very for docking of tails... NOT for people docking them with rubberbands when they are 8 weeks old. You do it between day 1-3 when they have no nerve endings! *end rant*

if the fad was to dock them and there was a reason.. sure do i like my meeces tails? yes!


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## Rhasputin

So you are against docking for purely cosmetic reasons?

What about ear cropping?
I don't think you -can- crop a mouse's ears, lol.


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## bethmccallister

I wish someone would have docked my boxers tail before we got her. She was a 6 year old rescue and her tail was very very painful whenever she was around us. She would wag her tail and smack everyone and everything in sight! It was very long and thin and it had to cause her pain every time she hit it on something. She didn't seem to care though, lol.

As for mice, I love their tails and I think they love them too. That would be like cutting off a cats tail or a monkeys, I think they use it for balance and agility.


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## SarahC

I'm against chopping off anything for cosmetic reasons .However the misinformed tend to chant if you want an animal to look like that then breed it like that.Far better to remove a part of a healthy animal how ever much I disagree than to breed in a non reversable mal formed back bone.A correctly docked animal will still be healthy.They can be done by laser but you have to balance the risk of taking new borns to a vets clinic.It's easy to select for pointed ears,they are natural,floppy ears are not, so I can see no excuse for not selecting for this.


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## WillowDragon

Don't like cropping. Docking doesn't bother me too much, I'm either way on that.

And ermm... if the mouse was docked it wouldn't be 'manx'... it would be 'docked' LOL


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## setterchick

Rhasputin said:


> So you are against docking for purely cosmetic reasons?
> 
> What about ear cropping?
> I don't think you -can- crop a mouse's ears, lol.


Im for it for breed standards.... Fox terriers tails are docked for saftey reasons, they have the potental of getting bit and cut up by brush ect. they are left so you can pull them out of a hole with a hand... are they pulled out of holes all the time now? no... but thats why it was done. ( i believe in breeding dogs for what they were made to do)

Ear cropping? I think that pet people shouldnt do it... I worked at a animal hospital of a dobe that had its ears done and the owners didnt tape them right and they were grossly infected.. if you know what your doing do it.. I much prefer the look of them cropped.

hahah I wouldnt try


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## Jack Garcia

WillowDragon said:


> Don't like cropping. Docking doesn't bother me too much, I'm either way on that.
> 
> And ermm... if the mouse was docked it wouldn't be 'manx'... it would be 'docked' LOL


You could show it as manx and nobody would know. I think it's against the rules, if not by letter then by spirit, of most clubs.


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## WillowDragon

True enough, but i think manx aren't allowed in the NMC... not sure. I know manx rats aren't allowed to be shown.


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## Jack Garcia

Hmmm...I always forget that you can't show manx rats in the UK. In the US it seems like manx is the new dumbo (everybody wants it!) lol...


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## Jack Garcia

SarahY said:


> Not just for them but also for us, the handlers.


You know what's weird? Picking up a manx mouse for the first time. Your instinct (mine at least) is to reach for the tail, but there isn't one so you kinda have to step back and ask yourself "What should I do?" You have to scoop them up, with one or both hands. It's a rather odd experience to encounter a cage of manx mice.


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## Rhasputin

That's how I was with spiny mice. Except it's harder, because they actually DO have a tail, you just have to remeber to not pick them up by it! :? 
Or else you'll have a manx spiny mouse, lol!


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## Jack Garcia

When I had spiny mice they were insanely people friendly. They'd run into your hands without you even trying.


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## Stina

I don't (yet!) have manx mice...but I do have manx rats. I do not agree with docking tailed mice/rats (too many people would try to pass it off as genetic!).....but I love my genetic manx rats....not just b/c I like the taillessness, but b/c they seem to, on the whole, have FABULOUS tempermants and are mushier and sweeter than their tailed counterparts. I've noticed no health/wellbeing issues related to taillessness (there is a slight risk of hip/nerve problems related to it, but those problems should be evident early on) in general. My manx rats have been extremely sweet and insanely adorable....they get around their cages just as well as their tailed cagemates...I've not had any problems related to overheating or anything either. I've also not experienced my girls having any trouble giving birth.


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## Rhasputin

Yes, my spiny mice are incredibly people friendly too. The younger ones are a bit skittish, but once they grow up they just absolutely attack you with happiness.

I've never had problems with manx rats before. And honestly, I can't say I know anybody that breeds manx rats, or mice, that has had many, or any problems with the breed other than breeding for a perfect non-existant tail.


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## Jack Garcia

I find removing the skin tags to be a little bit unpleasant, but that's an issue with me, not them.


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## Rhasputin

Bleh, that would be gross.


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## Jack Garcia

They don't even bleed, but when I do it I'm afraid I'm gonna kill them. lol


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## Rhasputin

:lol:


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## moustress

I like meeces that look like meeces. Wouldn't want and don't really care to see gremlin, earless, dumbo, manz, hairless, or any of the other extreme varieties. I'm not so keen on curly meeces either. So often they just look miserable and irritated and so many of them have health problems related to curliness.

I can definitely can see the wisdom of docking the tail of dogs like rotties and boxers. I did not know about rotties breaking their tails when undocked. Our family had a boxer and the thought of being beaten with a tail like a steel spring every time you get near is extremely unattractive, to say the least. Being lovingly drooled on was enough for me. Boxers are such loving dogs, at least to their human family. Such vigorously and wiggledy loving beasts.


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## SarahC

WillowDragon said:


> True enough, but i think manx aren't allowed in the NMC... not sure. I know manx rats aren't allowed to be shown.


you could show it in the unstandardised.No need to ban any mouse,they have no wide appeal in the first place.


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## PPVallhunds

Jack Garcia said:


> When I had spiny mice they were insanely people friendly. They'd run into your hands without you even trying.


Wish ours at work where like that, ours are evil.


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## CatWoman

As anyone that knows me at all can imagine.. I'm absolutely against tail docking, ear cropping, declawing, or any other physical alteration of animals for human convenience or cosmetic reasons.

As far as dogs injuring their tails or beating on humans with them.. there's a simple, inexpensive, non-surgical fix for that. Train your dog.


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## Stina

train dogs not to wag their tails?......


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## SarahY

I was thinking the same thing... It'd be like training a child not to smile :?

Sarah xxx


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## moustress

Uh huh.

And further, I don't think docking or ear trimming is any worse than the forced breeding that's necessary to create all the different types of dogs we have. A good proportion of pure bred dogs have the tendency to physical problems because they were forced too severely to start with.

I like mutts; they have a more healthy robust set of plain old doggie genes. Forced breeding has been a detriment to the health of a bunch of different breeds. If docking can relieve such a breed of potential injury or suffering, I'm for it. I'd rather, though, like I said, have a mutt type doggie. I don't like to see such alteration when it's just for the sake of meeting show standards.


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## geordiesmice

The tail can help the mouse balance, when it runs it will swing its tail to help it balace and take quick sharp turns. The mouse can also use its tail to grip things, just like a primate uses it tail, this helps it to climb and jump safely.In my opinion a mouse isnt amouse without a tail .The show ring doesnt take to hairless mice how on earth they ever allowed a manx mouse to be shown I cant understand it .


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## CatWoman

If teaching a dog not to wag its tail is like teaching a child not to smile, then cutting a dog's tail off because he wags it too hard would be like cutting a child's arms off because they keep grabbing candy off the store shelf.. no?

I consider training a dog to wag its tail without damaging themselves or other people to be more along the lines of teaching a child not to start yelling knock-knock jokes in the middle of the Divine Liturgy. It's about behaving appropriately under specific circumstances, and showing respect to those around you. There are tons of things my dogs are allowed to do when they're outside playing, but not allowed to do when they come inside, and they know the difference. It's really not rocket science.


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## Stina

So you've taught your dogs not to wag their tails hard then?... pretty sure its not possible. They don't know how hard they wag their tails, they just do it.....they don't think about it.....there is NO way I've ever heard of to teach a dog not to wag its tail.....


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## SarahC

geordiesmice said:


> The tail can help the mouse balance, when it runs it will swing its tail to help it balace and take quick sharp turns. The mouse can also use its tail to grip things, just like a primate uses it tail, this helps it to climb and jump safely.In my opinion a mouse isnt amouse without a tail .The show ring doesnt take to hairless mice how on earth they ever allowed a manx mouse to be shown I cant understand it .


just on this point,hairless were also developed for a reason not for cosmetic purposes.They hail from science labs for experiments.Presumably skinny pigs have the same background as do hairless rats.


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## m137b

edited to remain on topic


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## geordiesmice

Yes hairless mice used for dermitalogical and cancer treatments in my opinion the hairless should be held in high esteem as these little boys and girls help us , as well as being realy cute of course.


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## CatWoman

Yes, every one of my dogs is trained not to beat people or objects with their tails. And, with the exception of one, they're also trained to 200+ other commands, including pack commands.

Tail wagging is not a reflex. Dogs absolutely can control when they do it and when they don't, just like they can control their other behaviors. Teaching them not to beat people/objects with their tails goes right along with teaching them to greet people nicely. There's few things worse than dogs that greet you by jumping and humping all over you, blowing snot and spit everywhere, snorting and snarfing and scratching and tail beating. Blah.

My dogs know that they're not allowed to act like idiots, wrestle, run, play chase, jump on people/furniture, chase the cats, chew on things, howl, bark, scrape their butts on the carpet, poop, or pee when they're inside the house. When they're in the house, they're expected to behave like gentlemen. It doesn't mean they're -never- allowed to act like idiots, play chase, wrestle, run, etc., it just means there's a difference between what's acceptable in different places and they know that difference. Beating people and property with their tails is not acceptable anywhere. If they want to wag their tails with reckless abandon, then they can go out into the middle of the yard, away from everything and everyone else, and wag til their heart's content.

I've worked with literally hundreds of dogs over the years and I've never met a dog that couldn't be taught basic, respectful behavior, including watching what they're doing with their tails.


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## m137b

If the manx genes avaliable to the fancy developed past a healthy point, where a majority of the stock born were defective, and there was a demand for tailless mice and rats, I'd rather dock their tails then continue to breed from unhealthy stock. But if the avaliable genetically manx stock is healthy and reproducing mostly healthy offspring, I see no point in the Fancy to accept docked animals as a standard practice.


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## Jack Garcia

m137b said:


> If the manx genes avaliable to the fancy developed past a healthy point, where a majority of the stock born were defective, and there was a demand for tailless mice and rats, I'd rather dock their tails then continue to breed from unhealthy stock. But if the avaliable genetically manx stock is healthy and reproducing mostly healthy offspring, I see no point in the Fancy to accept docked animals as a standard practice.


The (potential) problem is that you wouldn't necessarily know the difference on the show bench. Altering mice in terms of color (such as dying them) or coat (such as perming them, if this were even possible) is against the rules, so it stands to reason that so is deliberately chopping off their tails!


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