# Proportional Representation.



## Wight Isle Stud

Surely the numbers of Members of mouse clubs in the States should be proportional to those in the uk ? I thought our American friends were good at Marketing ?

PP.S. Yes the last comment I hope will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended, I feel a good debate coming on .

Gary.


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## moustress

We don't, here in the US, have have a century of tradition that exists in the UK, especially in England. It's ust a matter of time, though. I think that small furries are going to become more popular as people here in the US live in small spaces, and work longer hours. Mousies cost relatively little to maintain compared to dogs and cats.


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## Wight Isle Stud

I agree, I was thinking that if we have a few hundred in the uk, it will be fabulous to think of a few thousand in the U.S! Time will tell.


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## WillowDragon

There is certainly the potential for a huge amount of people in clubs in the US.

This is gonna sound not great, and its a massive generalisation... BUT, I think there is also the huge chance that the American fancy once it truely comes into its own, will be vastly different to ours.
I don't think they will be quite so accepting to culling as what we are honestly... Americans do have to propensity to be quite extreme, I think the mouse fancy will turn out like the Rat Fancy personally. You're the devils own creation if you cull.

W xx


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## moustress

You know, Willow, that I have proposed the idea that 'American' meeces are significantly different already, having descended from American house mice. While it's true that US and English show meeces can interbreed, producing fertile young, the same is true of all varieties of dogs and cats, and look how different they look, behave, and the different dietary and other health requirements that exist.

I'm seriously considering trying to house some meeces in an unheated crawl space next to my mousery. I want to expand eventually anyway, but I'm have a somewhat morbid interest in seeing how the distribution of brown fat differs in meeces born and raised in significantly different temperatures. It's not something I will do this winter, most likely, but I'm the sort of person who is always agitating with a million 'whys' about everything having to do with mousies (actually about everything under the 
sun). I suspect that my meeces may have lost much of their brown fat due to generations being bred in warm temps. Maybe... we'll ust have to wait and see if I can figure this out.

Sorry, I went way off topic there.


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## Erica08

I agree with Willow culling will not be taken well here in the states mainly because I don't feel people look at the long term results. People see a mouse that you brought into the world now your just going to "cull" it people will jump all over you but they don't see that those runty kits are likely to grow in to runty sickly adults and that in some ways it is much kinder to cull them young then let them fight and live shorter lives as pets.

Just my thoughts


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## CatWoman

moustress, I ran across a study the other day that did exactly what you're proposing, although they did it in lab environment.. I'll see if I can find it again for you.


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## Seawatch Stud

I think if it was going to happen it would have already. I also think there are many reasons why it wont. There is no historical aspect to the mouse fancy in the U.S for a start, which for British fanciers is a very significant part of the NMC. I won a cup at the NMC annual show this year which was first awarded in 1901!. There are also the socio-economic reasons to take into account. In Britain the mouse fancy(and other small animal hobbies) grew out of heavily populated working class areas of a small nation. The U.S is a continent not a small island, so there is no equivalent population or circumstances. The fact the U.S is a continent is very significant to me. I have visited the states on many occasions from Florida to Alaska and everywhere in between., and its huge!. The distances inolved for mouse fanciers travelling to shows across the U.S are mind boggling. Its as far from New York to L.A as it is from London to New York!. For these reasons, and probably many others its just not really viable for a mouse club like the NMC to function there. I would say the U.S fanciers are a very dedicated bunch to keep and show mice at all in these circumstances and I raise my glass to them.


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## Wight Isle Stud

moustress said:


> You know, Willow, that I have proposed the idea that 'American' meeces are significantly different already, having descended from American house mice. While it's true that US and English show meeces can interbreed, producing fertile young, the same is true of all varieties of dogs and cats, and look how different they look, behave, and the different dietary and other health requirements that exist.
> 
> I'm seriously considering trying to house some meeces in an unheated crawl space next to my mousery. I want to expand eventually anyway, but I'm have a somewhat morbid interest in seeing how the distribution of brown fat differs in meeces born and raised in significantly different temperatures. It's not something I will do this winter, most likely, but I'm the sort of person who is always agitating with a million 'whys' about everything having to do with mousies (actually about everything under the
> sun). I suspect that my meeces may have lost much of their brown fat due to generations being bred in warm temps. Maybe... we'll ust have to wait and see if I can figure this out.
> 
> Sorry, I went way off topic there.


I well remember an interesting find in England wherby mice had been living in a chiller. (It was an industrial chiller and the size of a house. The mice were found to have much denser and longer coats than normal,and this was reported in a scientific journal. The interesting point is that the mice had no time to evolve naturally to the low temperatures in the chiller,and the assumption was that they have the ability to change in response to new enviromental circumstances.The chiller had only been inplace for three years.


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## WillowDragon

I'll be back. said:


> moustress said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, Willow, that I have proposed the idea that 'American' meeces are significantly different already, having descended from American house mice. While it's true that US and English show meeces can interbreed, producing fertile young, the same is true of all varieties of dogs and cats, and look how different they look, behave, and the different dietary and other health requirements that exist.
> 
> I'm seriously considering trying to house some meeces in an unheated crawl space next to my mousery. I want to expand eventually anyway, but I'm have a somewhat morbid interest in seeing how the distribution of brown fat differs in meeces born and raised in significantly different temperatures. It's not something I will do this winter, most likely, but I'm the sort of person who is always agitating with a million 'whys' about everything having to do with mousies (actually about everything under the
> sun). I suspect that my meeces may have lost much of their brown fat due to generations being bred in warm temps. Maybe... we'll ust have to wait and see if I can figure this out.
> 
> Sorry, I went way off topic there.
> 
> 
> 
> I well remember an interesting find in England wherby mice had been living in a chiller. (It was an industrial chiller and the size of a house. The mice were found to have much denser and longer coats than normal,and this was reported in a scientific journal. The interesting point is that the mice had no time to evolve naturally to the low temperatures in the chiller,and the assumption was that they have the ability to change in response to new enviromental circumstances.The chiller had only been inplace for three years.
Click to expand...

I remember that too Gary, I believe they were found to have significantly longer claws too, assumedly to be able to grip on the ice particles on the floor.

Moustress, I wasn't so much talking about the differences in the actual mice, though that is true. I was talking about a difference in the fancy as a whole, attitudes and opinions of the people involved.

W xx


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## Jack Garcia

Seawatch is right on track. The actual land and distance of the United States is too huge for the same kind of mouse fancy, I think. It's comparable in size to Australia, another country that has difficulty in keeping a mouse fancy together.

The AFRMA is our oldest club (existing since the 1980s, if I remember correctly) and it is our best-funded, most professional, and most active (due to the fact that it's in a huge population area--Los Angeles). As an example, from me to the AFRMA is 2200 miles. According to Google, this is about the same distance between London, England and Jerusalem, Israel.

And I live in the middle of the country! If you lived further north or east, such as folks in Maine, you'd have to travel around 3500 miles unless you wanted to take the hassle to move between countries (through Canada), and with live animals that brings even more challenges. Considering the difficulty and expense of taking mice on planes, that's a five or six day trip by the time you stop to sleep and eat, and a five or six day trip back, so in practical purposes you're talking about a two week trip to show mice.

The ECMA solved this problem by moving locations every few months, but that means our shows are sparse and far-between because we have to be in one state in March and another in October/November, and our attendees are rarely the same (Jenny (WNT) and/or I are the only people who go to every single one) because people can't travel across the country every few months. We operate on an all-volunteer skeleton crew because like nearly all small animal clubs in the US we're so underfunded and paid for by one or two individuals. Member fees do help but unless you have a million members, traveling such long distances is super expensive.

I wouldn't be surprised if in fact we had similar percentages of people who are interested in mice as does the UK. What's different is that our country is enormous and we're super spread out. Even in NYC or LA (the two largest population centers), mouse people are still spread out with maybe three or four people who are serious fanciers. AFRMA shows rarely have more than half a dozen attendees. That's the single biggest issue in getting the American mouse fancy more developed, I think--geography.

Honestly, as an American who culls heavily, inbreeds heavily, and tells people not to breed petstore mice, I am looked at as a mean old a nutter, and I do have enemies because of it! I have a feeling that in the UK this would all be normal.

All this is why I would love to move to England. Any English citizens wanna marry me (male or female, I don't care)?


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## WillowDragon

> All this is why I would love to move to England. Any English citizens wanna marry me (male or female, I don't care)?


Are you rich?


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## Wight Isle Stud

send me a photo of your shed.


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## The Village Mousery

lol the forums become a dating site


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## Jack Garcia

WillowDragon said:


> All this is why I would love to move to England. Any English citizens wanna marry me (male or female, I don't care)?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you rich?
Click to expand...

Hehe...but aren't all Americans equally wealthy, greedy, and stupid?

If I were rich enough to move without marriage, I'd've done so!

I've actually looked into immigration before and it seems the higher the education you've achieved, the easier is it. In 2-3 years I'll have the terminal degree in my field so if nothing else I'll have enough money to visit, as I plan to! 

I have a good friend from England who moved to the US (through marriage) when he was in his teens (he's in his 30s now) and he can't imagine that the "real reason" that I'd like to live in England is to go to mouse shows. He's thinks I'm absolutely crazy but I'd love to. lol



I'll be back. said:


> send me a photo of your shed.


 :lol:


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## bethmccallister

Oh my goodness! Sounds like I need to get my butt to a ECMA show and soon before Jack leaves the country!


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## moustress

CatWoman: You are becoming indispenseble! I want to see that article.

Erica08: Trying not to take what you said as a personal affront, I have to say that I do not cull pinkies and my mousies are anything but sickly. One of my does, Hazel, deceased, had really big litters of at least 10, one with 12, and they were all lovely long bodied darlings, most of which lived well over two years. A couple are still alive at over three years (2 or 3 does). I'd also add that smaller doesn't necessarily mean unhealthy. On the other hand, I do agree that many US pet breeders (and probably a good percentage elsewhere in the world) are excessively sentimental when it comes to culling whether it be pinkies or undesirable or sick adults. And as far as breeding really large mousies is concerned, I think that proportions are more important than overall size, although I do like nice big mousies.


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## Wight Isle Stud

All I said was that I thought americans were good at advertising, now we got Jack trying to find a partner male or female, offers of marridge, a fight over culling, lol, its just like the lunch table at a show! magic. Wait for a mod to slap the table with an oi oi you lot- red cards or lock !!


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## Jack Garcia

Well, I was kinda being facetious in asking for a marriage offer. Hehe...


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## CatWoman

Jack Garcia said:


> I've actually looked into immigration before and it seems the higher the education you've achieved, the easier is it. In 2-3 years I'll have the terminal degree in my field so if nothing else I'll have enough money to visit, as I plan to!


I have terrible news for you, Jack. Assuming it's the one mentioned on your website, I have the degree of which you speak and it has a terrible tendency to continue costing money, rather than bringing in any money to put toward more leisurely, personal pursuits. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Seawatch Stud

Jack, Gary get a room!.


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## Wight Isle Stud

Jack Garcia said:


> Well, I was kinda being facetious in asking for a marriage offer. Hehe...


So I gotta get my own shed then.?


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## CatWoman

Oh lordy.. I hope this doesn't degenerate into two men comparing the size of their.... sheds.


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## WillowDragon

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## thekylie

This thread is awesome. XD

I'm also so glad Jack finally chimed in so I could say something too lol. I'm just barely starting in this hobby, and have no really awesome stock yet (so I felt like someone who represents the US better than me had to talk first), but I have been a lurker of the online mouse "community" for about 10 years. I do consider myself very lucky that I found breeders like Jack here to look up to, and that awesome international forums exist so I can glean knowledge from people who have been doing this for way longer than anyone here has. I was so happy to find some breeders in the US that take everything as seriously as I hope to. And one day, you overseas people, I will shell out a ton of money to get some of your tan genes over here! It figures the only color I REALLY love would be one of the most annoying to try to breed in the states.

I agree entirely it's at the fault of geography that the US will never have as awesome of a fancy as the UK. There are just too many miles between most people, and mice here are a true effort and a huge investment. Not for the mice themselves, but just for the travel involved. That and the US in general seems to be very behind on accepting anything new and different, which show mice definitely are to most people. Especially since I live in the south. Something I've always been curious about: Do you guys over in the UK still get the "you keep WHAT in your house?" comments like I do here? Or is mouse keeping more socially acceptable there. And you're right, most mouse people I've talked to take a much more "pet" approach to mice and culling than what I've been reading on this forum.

I would seriously love to move to England. I've researched it as well, and I hope at some point I get to really go.


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## Wight Isle Stud

Yes, comments about keeping mice are very common, always negative, however, get such a person in your shed, (looks like I gotta buy my own, as jack has back pedled on his marridge offer ) and they are astounded at the truth. I think its a duty of all of us to educate.


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## Jack Garcia

Well, honestly, my mice don't even live in a shed. :lol: They live in a spare bedroom. The bedroom has been converted, though, with shelves, pantries, and more shelves nailed to the walls for mouse cages, but alas it is not a shed so I fear I don't have what you're looking for!

That's another difference between the UK and the US, I think--in most of the US, it gets way too hot in the summers to keep mice in an outdoor shed. In Kentucky (where I live) it often gets to over 100 degrees F (39 C) in the summer. Those temperatures feel miserable for _people_, so I know they'd kill mice.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the countries which take up less space on the map (UK, the Netherlands, Germany) have much nicer mice (in general) and a more developed fancy than the physically giant countries (Australia, Canada, the USA). Having close access to other breeders is very important when talking about how a mouse fancy develops. The closest person to me is Jenny, and she's a 5 hour drive away!


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## thekylie

I'm lucky and GypsyTails is only 2 hours away, but we are both not established yet so I don't think we count lol. I think Jenny is the closest good breeder to me as well... about 8 hours.

And that's interesting to me about people still being so negative with mice with the hobby being around so long over there. I guess any agricultural based society though has evolved to hate pest animals and it's just us oddballs who realize how special the normal and hated things can be. 

And my mice live in my living room. I'm dreaming of the day when I can move to a 2 bedroom apartment again. Fortunately, I don't have that many yet so it's not that much of a burden on my living space lol.

EDIT THAT IS TOTALLY OFF TOPIC: JACK! I randomly found your Facebook page through the ECMA's and your profile picture made my day. I'm so happy you liked that silly thing so much.


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## WillowDragon

I find that people tend to take me a little more seriously when I explain the amount of work that actually goes into breeding for show.
Most of my friends know when the show dates are now and bug me straight away to know how I did! LOL


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## Jack Garcia

The most hilarious exchange I ever had about mice was in a laundromat. I was doing laundry, and a man I had met a few days earlier at school came over to me to make small talk. He asked what I had all these weird pieces of cloth for, and I said they were backgrounds to use in photographs of mice, that I bred mice for show. He thought I said dogs, but I didn't catch this until later. Our conversation went like this:

Him: So how many do you have?
Me: About 100 or so at any given time.
Him: (with wide, surprised eyes) Where do you keep them all?
Me: In a spare bedroom. It's not as many as it seems because they live a few to a cage.
Him: You keep them in _cages_? What breed are they?
Me: Well, they don't really have breeds. Most of mine are standard, which means their coats don't shine.
Him: What? So you have a hundred mutts in a cage? Don't your neighbors complain?
Me: No, not really. They look at me kinda funny when I bring in ten bags of oats at once.
Him: You feed them _oats_?
Me: Yeah, and lab blocks specifically designed for mice.
Him: Wait--I thought you said dogs.


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## thekylie

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Wight Isle Stud

So you havent even got a shed !! you led me all along. 
Believe me it gets more than hot enough here in England to wipe out Mice. Sheds will always act as heat collectors if the sun is allowed to shine on them. I have always put mine out of the sun, and with a false roof so the sun cant shine directly on it, loads of ventilation under the roof eaves and a wire mesh door. 
What you cant change is the air temp though, Is that what you mean Jack (not that I should even acknowledge your existance as you raised my hopes then dashed them ), do you have very high air temps so is that why air con is common over there ?. Broken hearted of england.


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## Jack Garcia

I feel so bad! I didn't mean to break your heart! :lol:

The ambient air temperature is sometimes 100 (in 2007 it got to 110 F for over a week), without air conditioners. Many US cities have put in place cooling centers where the elderly, the young, and the sick can go in the summer because the temperatures are so hot it can kill them. The heat is never that high for more than four or five weeks at most (basically the month of August), but that's plenty of time to kill a whole shed of mice.

I have actually designed (in my head and on paper) an underground "shed" for mice, since things underground are cooler. When I win the lottery, maybe I can build it and then send you pictures!


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## WillowDragon

One day of those tempretures is enough to kill a shed load of mice!


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## Seawatch Stud

Gary and Jack are raisin temperatures all around!!. I think any shed you two guys are in would be HOT HOT HOT!!. I say it again guys get a room. Jack gets to move to England Gary gets a new wife everybody wins! Jack can you cook?.


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## Jack Garcia

Haha! My last name is Garcia. If I can't cook and clean, there is something seriously wrong with me!


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## Seawatch Stud

I bow to your last name Jack. Gerry,Gerry ,Gerry. Takes on a whole new meaning eh Jack?.


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## Jack Garcia




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## Seawatch Stud

Sorry I should have said Mr Garcia, God bless Gerry.


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## moustress

Well, I'm, happily married and I'm not fighting about culling. Folks have the right to do as they please in their own mousery with their own animals. As long as it is done humanely and does not harm anyone, I think it's absurd for anyone to agitate excessively over someone else's practices or habits. I really enjoy the diversity found in this forum. That doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everyone much less not write about things when I disagree.

'k?


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## Stina

You guys are histerical! My mice and rats happen to live in my living room and dining room...lol We just don't have anywhere else to put them in this house. Hopefully our next house will have an extra bedroom or useable basement...lol Oh and I definitely want to ship in some mice from the UK someday....

I'm in US myself (Pennsylvania...a long ways from Jack or Jenny or pretty much anyone else...)...I agree that the US mouse fancy will never be as large as in the UK...largely b/c of the sheer area of the US. There is also a general disinterest in mice from the vast majority of population...people are so used to hamsters as pets, for whatever reason, that they don't even consider mice as a pet option. People also tend to think that mice are going to bite and jump and get lost and breed in their homes...there is a general lack of education to the general public on small animals as pets and thus evil hamsters prevail and sweet and lovng mice tend to be ignored.


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## Jack Garcia

Stina said:


> There is also a general disinterest in mice from the vast majority of population...people are so used to hamsters as pets, for whatever reason, that they don't even consider mice as a pet option. People also tend to think that mice are going to bite and jump and get lost and breed in their homes...there is a general lack of education to the general public on small animals as pets and thus evil hamsters prevail and sweet and lovng mice tend to be ignored.


This is unfortunately way too true. I've mentioned this on other forums, before but there is a _veterinarian_ near me who thought that mice and rats were the same species. She advertised that her clinic treated "all small animals," so when I went in for a "hello-how-are-you" visit (with no animals), she mentioned that rats were her favorite species and that led a discussion which made me realize what she was saying. I took a piece of paper and wrote down "Rattus norvegicus" and "Mus musculus" for her and never went back.

If a vet can be this informed, I pity the people who don't work with animals every day. Something tells me that she is not an isolated example, although I'd hope she was!


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## moustress

Distances may daunting, but I am willing to drive 650 to 700 miles there and back in a day in order to get mousies that I really, really want. That's how I got my tricolors. I'm not quite as willing to do that for shows, but I'd consider it if there were some serious breeders that had a club organized in, say, the Chicago area. I might not bring any of mine unless folks wanted to pick up stock from me, or if someone had mousies that I coveted and wanted to pick up there.

But, then, I love to drive. And if the distance was broken up by a weekend or even a days overnight rest, I'd do it in a heartbeat!


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