# What happened?(Dead baby...?)



## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

My mouse was going to give birth today, I knew because of how she was acting and a bit of blood (Which at first I paniced about but my mum said it was normal...)

So every so often I checked on her, she was fine and no babies...

Then about 10-20 mins ago I went to check on her, but my cage top thingy broke, so that needed to be fixed otherwise the mice would escape...But then the person keeping an eye on my mice spotted something...

A dead baby 

I have no idea what happened, but there are blood patches around the cage, the mum seems fine and everything but there is a dead baby in there and maybe more...But what happened? This was the mothers first litter, and also my first time breeding mice...So not a very good first time all around  Im not sure if she is going to have more babies and if they will live or not...


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## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

Well, my mum went to check it out and it seems she ate the other babies...For there were body parts around....  Im not sure I want to breed her again...But I also do, but when would be the right time? And do you think this time she might not kill them? Or do you think it was the other female that was in with her?


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Sorry it didnt go right for you first time, its not unusual for a first time mum to make a mess of things. Sometimes she will dispose of a fair few babies in the only way she knows how, just be careful because there could be a couple of babies being cared for in there somewhere. It does sound like there has been a fair bit of disturbance going on, which definitely doesn't help. I don't genrally get a problem with another doe in a cage with a pregnant one, but it sounds like one doe has objected to the others litter, so next time put her on her own to litter and dont disturb for a couple of days, then just have a gentle look in the nest.


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## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

Yeah, well I just hope she doesnt have more babies today and kill them too....Well I have her sister in there because my mum doesnt want more cages around since my room is full, and because she is supposed to be the nanny...Im not sure it was her though because my mum said normaly first time mothers kill them not knowing what they are- Or the babies could have been born dead or ill...


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I wouldn't say that's normal for a first time litter. And I'm pretty sure the maternal instinct kicks in right away. There are risks when housing two females together with a litter, and definite risks when the cage is disturbed, especially when the babies are only a day or two old. They might have been sick, but if you're breeding again, I'd do as Wight Isle suggested and keep the mother by herself and not disturb the cage. Best to be safe when you're not sure about her reactions.


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## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

Im not sure im allowed to have more cages in my room... but as my mum sais she has had lots of mice and used to breed them, and they never killed the babies...Im not sure what went wrong but if the next time I breed her and the same or something similar happens, hopefully I'll be there to save the babies or I just wont breed her again...


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

If your not allowed to have more cages, then don't breed her again anyways. I think that's most sensible for some one in your position. Mum is entirely correct.


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## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

No im allowed a cage for seperating the babies though,  Anyway, I guess my question if you can call it that has been answered, but its still pretty sad... *Sigh* thanks for answering though


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

have you had the mice checked yet as you was saing in another thread one could be ill?, and from what your were desribing they did sound ill. if they are ill that could be the cause of it. It could also be than one or both of the females is just not a good mum. ive got one girl who was my best siam but would kill her litters and any one elses litter so had to retire her. If you do breed her again you will need to seperate her to find out if it was her or the nanny, otherwise if the nanny is a liter muncher she will just do it again. If my girls kill 2 litters they wont be allowed to breed again or be a nanny.

You say your only allowed a cage to seperate the babies but what are you planning to do with them if you get a bunch of bucks and if they start fighting when older?


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## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

She is not ill anymore, and hasnt been for a while now... xD Yeah, but what if its neither of them? What if the litter was born unhealthy or something, I dont know....

Im not sure they will, I listen to my mum most of the time because she used to breed alot of mice, and said that her males never fought...


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

kittygirl991 said:


> I listen to my mum most of the time because she used to breed alot of mice, and said that her males never fought...


That doesn't mean yours won't. Besides, lots of people on this forum have bred mice for many years too, and are trying their best to give you the advice you asked for. It's simple:

1. Reconsider if you can have a minimum of three and a maximum of, for example, 12 cages (one for mum and young does, one for the adult buck and one for the young bucks (or 10 if you have a conservatively sized litter that is all male and they fight)
2. Let the doe give birth alone
3. Don't disturb the doe for the first couple of days (apart from refilling food and water)

Most of all, think about WHY you're breeding. If you want more mice just buy a couple more does and have a nice friendly group with just one tank, since your mum won't let you have many. You don't have to breed and keep a litter of 10-12 babies.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

kittygirl991 said:


> Im not sure they will, I listen to my mum most of the time because she used to breed alot of mice, and said that her males never fought...


I cannot belive we are going through this all over again. No point telling you otherwise any more, you'll do what you want. I just hope you don't regret it.


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## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

@Mousebreeder. Well, im still debating whether or not I should breed them.... And I want to breed mice for the experiance, and so I can train the mouse from a young age and have it really tame...


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

socializing CAN help, but from my experience it has a lot to do with genetics too.

You can't be contemplating weather or not you want to breed if you already have a litter on the ground .(even if it is a failed one)

I'll recommend it again. Buy the book "introduction to mouse genetics"
Read it till it falls apart, and try to buy healthy,solid mice from a decent breeder.

It could have been the mom's diet as well, if she isn't eating right she may not have the resources to feed the babies, and decide to eat them instead.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

kittygirl991 said:


> She is not ill anymore, and hasnt been for a while now....


Well she didnt look perfectly healthy to me in the pic you took on the 21st of this month, the one where she had wet fur around her eyes and you said they had been sneezing with crusty eyes. That was only a week ago so even if they are looking better now they could still be run down from recovering. (which was why we said not to put her in with her sick sister.)



kittygirl991 said:


> but what if its neither of them? What if the litter was born unhealthy or something, I dont know.......


If the whole litter was born with problems and died then should you realy be thinking of be rebreeding her if she is producing unhealthy kits.



kittygirl991 said:


> Im not sure they will, I listen to my mum most of the time because she used to breed alot of mice, and said that her males never fought


I guess you have forgoton the huge thread you started about that topic when you first joined where everyone on this forum said to you that yes its possible for SOME males to get along but that it is NOT the norm and if you want to keep bucks tougher you MUST be prepared to sperate if/when the first signs of fighting appear.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Your mom was very lucky. MOST male mice will eventually fight....even if they've lived together their whole lives, they will usually end up fighting at some point...even many months down the road. I've had males I've had to separate at just a couple months old...and a few I've never had to separate...but most have ended up having to be separated at some point. You never know how its going to turn out and you cannot plan on them getting along forever.


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## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

@Shadowrunner. Im not sure, I gave her lots of extra fatty foods like sunflower seeds and peanuts...
@PPvallhunds.

1. Wet eye? No I told you, that had been gone for ages, and the sneezing has pretty much cleared up since I changed there bedding.

2. Im not sure if I want to breed her yet, but I dont know why she killed them all either, that was just an idea of the hundred possebilities....

3. Well, I will be rehoming them when there old enough and plus, ive never seen or had males that have fought...

@Stina. Very very very very extremely lucky... :L And also, I have seen around and heard from an american mouse breeder that English bucks are less likely to fight


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I _have _English bucks, and guess what? *THEY FIGHT*! :roll:


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

kittygirl991 said:


> @PPvallhunds.
> 
> 1. Wet eye? No I told you, that had been gone for ages, and the sneezing has pretty much cleared up since I changed there bedding.


Yes wet fur around the eyes in these pics here that you said were taken last week. A week isnt ages. 
















Im not trying to have a go or anything but you dont seem to ralise that a week is not a long time for a mouse to recover from illness, also pritty much cleard up isnt compleatly gone. If you do want to breed her again waite for all simptoms to be COMPLEATLY gone for 2weeks befor putting them tougher, otherwise it will compermise the adults recovery and make it harder to raise the litter if they survive.



kittygirl991 said:


> @Stina. Very very very very extremely lucky... :L And also, I have seen around and heard from an american mouse breeder that English bucks are less likely to fight


Every UK breeder on here has 'English mice' and as we said in your post about keeping bucks tougher they normaly aruge/fight at some point and you must be prepared to deal with it. I had two boys i was taking into work (yes mine are english mice) they were sharing a cage with a diveder and one boy realised he could poke his head over the top of the divider and with in seconds the other male grabbed his face, pulled him over the divider and was attacking him. i had to pull over to save him. Like wise ive had brothers get to 12 weeks and bullying started. I once had a male group who lived tougher for a year then one day one of the males attacked the other so badly i had to have him putdown.

If your planning to rehome do you have a shop lined up? just asking as ive found that there are not many if any homes for males as pets, everyone wants females due to the males smelling more and tendency to argue. If you have a shop that will take them that will make it a little easyer on you in that respect.


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

Kittygirl. This is the sort of thing I used to do with my mum too. We bred guineapigs for years. Luckily guineapigs are much more popular as pets than mice and we could find homes for them without too much trouble and in addition to that, they had 4 babies at a time maximum. Now when I started doing it (same age as you) my mum said a lot of things based on assumption and experiences with other animals that would have ended up with the guineapigs suffering (not intentionally, just because she didn't have the knowledge). I however was of the internet generation and I spent hours upon hours filling up my brain with knowledge on how to breed guineapigs, what to do with runts, how to hand rear etc etc (And by the way, guineapig babies are much easier to care for as they come out fully formed.) If I hadn't paid attention to what I read and what I was told, I would have inflicted unnecessary suffering on to my pets. My point is, if you listen, you learn. If you don't, you wont. I do not want to see your pets suffer because you were too stubborn to listen when people said do not risk your males lives by keeping them together. Everyone on here is only concerned for your mice. If you are dead set on breeding mice, talk to your mum, get her to read some books on breeding so she can teach you if you don't want to read yourself. But it will greatly benefit you in the future if you do.

On a side note, am I right in saying after your male babies were weaned you would put them in with your adult buck? If this was your plan, please rethink it. You will end up with a lot of dead and injured mice.

Just do what is best for your mice. If you cant afford it, don't breed. If you cant find homes for the babies, don't breed. If you don't have the knowledge, don't breed! I could go on but you get the jist.


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## kittygirl991 (Sep 16, 2011)

@PPvalhunds. She never had a 'wet eye' in the first place??? And yes, im pretty sure I have a petshop lined up, but if not then there is always advertising elsewhere like the internet OR putting ads in the petshop. And like I have said, im probably not going to breed them again anyways.

@AyJay658. I have already read the books, I have read everything there is to read... And no defiently not, I would never put the male babies with there adult father!


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

You have never read everything there is to read =L Keep learning. Your whole life. I am glad to hear you aren't going to breed them again. Get some more experience first.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

kittygirl991 said:


> @PPvalhunds. She never had a 'wet eye' in the first place??? And yes, im pretty sure I have a petshop lined up, but if not then there is always advertising elsewhere like the internet OR putting ads in the petshop. And like I have said, im probably not going to breed them again anyways.


in both of those photos the fur around the eye is wet and as they have been sneezing as well it points to beeing ill, i know that is the other femlale in the pic but you said you put the mum in with her, so if she had something mum can catch it.

Id pop down the shop to double check they will take them if you do decided breed again, im not saying you shouldnt breed but just to waite untill everything is sorted to give them the best chance, no sneezing, enough cages, place for extras to go ect.


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