# True tricolor



## Fauka

If the original tricolor obtained by crossing splashed mouse and broken mouse? how the genetic code have tricolor mouse? What you know about tricolor mice?


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## SiamMeece

Tricolor = piebald(broken) + splashed + c-dilution (except for c^c)


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## Fauka

Thanks!


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## WillowDragon

The original Tricolours in England (Because it is standardised over here!) were not created by Spl, as noone in the country had that gene until this year I believe.

It is believed by some people that the pied gene on a Sable mouse can cause the black and red to seperate and create a tricolour. I have seen pictures of black, red and white mice, but never seen one in person, so who knows! lol
(Funnily enough, the first NMC show back in 1897 was won by a 'Very Handsome Tricolour)

W xx


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## SarahY

The picture on the NMC website of a tricolour definitely looks like a piebald sable; you can see the orange shading on the nose (a common fault in sables). I prefer the colour of that piebald sable, proper patches of black and tan on white, but the splashed tricolours are better show mice.

http://www.thenationalmouseclub.co.uk/marked.php

Sarah xxx

(Edited to include link to NMC tricolour standard)


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## WillowDragon

I am still determined to have a go at trying to create them Sarah!! lol


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## SarahY

They are very pretty indeed. I love sables as well, I'd like to show sables one day.

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon

I do like Sables... they were the first show type mice I ever saw. They were really beautiful. Especially satin ones.

Yes, since I now breed brokens and i know someone who is trying to breed sables, I am in a better position than I was to try and experiment with genetics! lol

W xx


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## SiamMeece

I take it that the British standard for tricolour also applies for splash based tricolours? When was actually the last time a British tricolour was judged on a show? (next year could be for the first time again, right?)


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## WillowDragon

NMC Standard:
_A Tricolour mouse is to have three contrasting patches of colour on the back and sides. Patches of colour on the undersides and belly of the mouse to be adjudged an added attraction. Brindling of the patches to be adjudged a fault._


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## Fauka

So, if I multiply sable mouse with broken this is a chance to tricolor? This may not be so easy :?


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## Roland

Fauka said:


> If the original tricolor obtained by crossing splashed mouse and broken mouse? how the genetic code have tricolor mouse? What you know about tricolor mice?


Hi Fauka,

here are some more infos about Spl/* based Tricolours:
http://www.repage7.de/member/drofi/tric ... ashed.html

Regards, Roland


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## Rosewood

I have two mice I believe are sables, Willow, if you are looking for some. They are twins, Harry and Boe. You could have one of those if you wanted more sables.


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## Seawatch Stud

There have been many attempts to create a "true" tricolour over the years. The ways explained earlier in this post are only a few examples of three coloured mice exhibited as tricolours. Many were pied tans, or sables. Varitint Waddler bred mice were true tricolours but health issues associated with the gene prevented them becoming a success. The spl based tricolours developed by Roland are by far the closest thing to standard that have been bred in living memory. We hope to get spl tricolours on to English show benches in the not too distant future.


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## Jack Garcia

In the US or Australia, you can also create three-colored mice using brindle (Avy/*) along with pied (s/s). But both the ECMA and the NMC say that brindling of color is a fault, so I don't know why you'd do that anyway.

A lady in the US had the waddler mice in the 1990s. I remember hers being just black and white, but it's been a long time since I saw them.



Seawatch Stud said:


> The spl based tricolours developed by Roland are by far the closest thing to standard that have been bred in living memory. We hope to get spl tricolours on to English show benches in the not too distant future.


Tricolors were originally developed by Wanda Wilson (now deceased) and then bred others, like Mike Chiodo, in the 1990s. Roland got his from Mike and Christine Fogu (who are both mutual friends of ours) in the last few years and has made improvements with outcrosses. Roland has done an excellent job, especially with keeping the amount of color, reverted color, and white about equal. Jenny (Whiskers n Tails in Tennessee) breeds the best tricolors in this country (and perhaps the world) in terms of both type and condition. Hers are probably also the most consistently bred, overall. She's too modest about them, in my opinion, especially when you consider what many pet breeders in the US are now producing and calling "tricolor." She also doesn't update her pictures often enough.

There is no nose-patch requirement for tricolor in the NMC, right? I don't read it in the standard, but I wonder how a judge would assess a tricolor mouse in the UK. I've judged tricolor and somewhere, almost unconsciously, I think I tend to look for a patch of color on the whisker bed, despite the fact that it's not even in our standards for broken! It just looks nice. 

The tricolor mouse photo on the NMC varieties page (seen here: http://www.thenationalmouseclub.co.uk/marked.php) says (c) 2004. Any idea who bred that mouse or took that picture?


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## WillowDragon

I don't believe there is any stipulation to patch placement in the Tri standards. Its doesn't even say one of the three colours has to be white!!

One day I hope to breed a Dark green, Lavender and Royal Purple Tricolour. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jack Garcia

WillowDragon said:


> I don't believe there is any stipulation to patch placement in the Tri standards. Its doesn't even say one of the three colours has to be white!!
> 
> One day I hope to breed a Dark green, Lavender and Royal Purple Tricolour. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I definitely want to see that! 

It's interesting that one of the colors doesn't have to be white, as per the NMC. I believe Mike has produced some mice with four distinct colors (brown, black, beige, white) on them before. I saw pictures, but I forget where the pictures were...you could conceivably use that to create a non-white tricolor, though I imagine it'd be very difficult to get rid of the pied once it was introduced.

I've had royal purple mice before. I sometimes mark my PEW does to tell them apart, and I once used deep purple livestock spray to dye them. It stayed on them for months, and they slowly went from royal purple to very light periwinkle before finally become white again five months later!


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## Jack Garcia

I did a little searching, and here is one of the distinctly four-colored mice Mike bred:

http://www.mikiodo.com/micepics/070204_quadF1.jpg

(I'm sure Mike wouldn't mind if I posted the picture, but just to be copyright-safe there's the address instead.)

Isn't it pretty?


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## WillowDragon

Oo black eyed cream tri... nice.


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## Roland

Jack Garcia said:


> I did a little searching, and here is one of the distinctly four-colored mice Mike bred:
> 
> http://www.mikiodo.com/micepics/070204_quadF1.jpg
> 
> (I'm sure Mike wouldn't mind if I posted the picture, but just to be copyright-safe there's the address instead.)
> 
> Isn't it pretty?


Hi,

it is not the exception to have several shades of colour somewhere between beige , brown and black on a single Spl/* mouse, it is quite normal.

Regards, Roland


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## Jack Garcia

I have seen different shades. What makes them more appealing to the eye, I think, is when the shades are distinct, with clear, clean lines, like the mouse above.

When the colors are blurred together and blend into each other, the visual effect isn't the same.


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## Rosewood

I am attempting this. I have put my darkest backed Sable buck (show type) in with a siamese broken (techically already has three strong blocks of colour in her coat, but not the kind of a tricolour) and I'm going to see if it works. I almost got rid of the girl the other day, then I noticed the colour and kept her. She's only a pet type, but I'm trying it anyway. Maybe after a couple of generations I might get something promising


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## Megzilla

Janna, you do realise those blocks of colour might just be the mouse shedding?


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## Wight Isle Stud

I have won a first with a true tricolour under Geoff Squibb in the late 70,s I obtained Varitint Waddler from a mouse Friend and was able to partially seperate the waddler effect and produced a mouse that didn't waltz. Tony Cooke was at the show, Tony Jones, and others. unfortunately at the time I didnt proceed with them. Sable Brokens will not be any good, as you can only have dark patches on the dorsal area, and lighter down the sides, plus white giving the three colour effect. They look good but its a dead end road I am afraid.


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## Roland

Rosewood said:


> I am attempting this. I have put my darkest backed Sable buck (show type) in with a siamese broken (techically already has three strong blocks of colour in her coat, but not the kind of a tricolour) and I'm going to see if it works. I almost got rid of the girl the other day, then I noticed the colour and kept her. She's only a pet type, but I'm trying it anyway. Maybe after a couple of generations I might get something promising


This could never work, because a sable is a dominant red tan. Combined with any c-dilution this combination (Ay/* ch/ch) will give a cream in the F2 and tan will give a fox (at/* ch/ch), combined it will give nothing else than a pale cream fox (Ay/at ch/ch), combined with piebald wirll result in a pale cream fox with white patches (Ay/at ch/ch s/s).
Nope!
Breeding sables to piebalds is something different, see discussions in this thread.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## SarahC

is there any merit in experimenting with colours,mixing and matching?or is the general opinion that we should limit our breeding efforts,bound by what we already know.Is there no chance of a worth while surprise mouse variety popping out of any of these mixtures.A genetic accident?


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## Wight Isle Stud

I would always be on the look out for odd mice in the litters of Brokens, especially those strains which carry Agouti. unfortunately the ideal Mutation has not happened yet even though countless litters of spotties have been bred.


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## Seawatch Stud

Any number of "sports" or "flukes" are possible from breeding pied mice. The chances of produdcing a viable variety this way are small, and it's not a very scientific approach. I'm sure the font of all mousing knowledge would agree.


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## SarahC

I'll be back. said:


> I would always be on the look out for odd mice in the litters of Brokens, especially those strains which carry Agouti. unfortunately the ideal Mutation has not happened yet even though countless litters of spotties have been bred.


I was meaning with mice generally.I particularly desire a lemon mouse.They appear in show reports and the odd article in old magazines.I've spoken to one person who had some yellow(not lemon)mice that when bred together only produced sables and one current older club member who remembers seeing the lemons but there is no genetic knowledge or anything much about what produced them.I can't help myself but to mix and match a few in the hopes that a much coveted( by me),lemon mouse will materialise.Sorry for veering off topic slightly.Any predictions anyone on what lemon mice might have been made up of genetically ?Or of the possibilities of making mice properly yellow in appearance ?It's difficult to decide whether lack of genetic knowledge is inhibiting or liberating for me.What about the splashed that are the vital ingredient for these new tri's.Are they a product of careful scientific study or an accidental bi product of something?I'm just curious/interested.


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## Cait

Good question about 'lemon' mice - I've never heard of them before. Were they self mice? If so I suppose a chinchillated red or fawn would be the closest I can think of, though usually these are 'cream' rather than yellow. Maybe the American recessive yellow would be a way to make them, though of course the UK lemons can't have been this.


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## Seawatch Stud

I think Cait is right (again!!) Recessive yellow bred to chin should theoretically do it. Our dom yellow will only reduce to a kind of apricot colour.


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## Cait

Seawatch Stud said:


> I think Cait is right (again!!)


Did it pain you to say that Phil? :lol:


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## Seawatch Stud

It does become a little repetitive. Cant you say something I can sneer at? It's not in my nature to agree with people all the time!


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## Cait

I'm sure I'll do something stupid soon enough...


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## Wight Isle Stud

I did see the pink eyed and black eyed golds in Satin , from memory the black eyed gold had amazing chocolate underfur when blown apart. The pink eyed golds were certainly a lovely lemon colour. Have to ask Tony what happened to them. (it is in Tonys book that the NMC failed to standardise these mice as they had no non satin equivalent)


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## SarahC

I have tried this method,it's why I keep chins and why I have some very pretty pink eyed creams,but still no lemon.They remain a pale delicate colour even when selecting the deepest coloured mice to breed from.I have tried with reds and I have tried with argente as well as fawn.I have trawled archive material.I think they originated mainly in the era that mice had a value to labs and many were mass produced for selling to these places,hence no genetic info.Another enigma.


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## SarahC

would the undercolour suggest sable in those particular mice?Which from what I gather don't breed true,just reverting to sable?


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## WillowDragon

I asked Tony if he had any pictures of the original satins, sadly he doesn't but said Eric Jukes might... I need to give him a nudge again about looking for me


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## Cait

Ah if they had a different undercolour then they can't have been a self, that is interesting. How would you describe the colour Gary? That might help to wok out what the mice were. Sorry if this is hijacking the tricolour theme


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## Seawatch Stud

The B.E golden had a blue undercolour (like an argente), the P.E golden had a deep chocolate undercolour. Tony suggests that they were not only "new" but different from each other. In other words the P.E golden was NOT a dilute version of the B.E golden. The NMC exec refused to grant them a standard because there was no equivalent in normal coated mice. Tony described the colour as like "gold lame" so think of Liberace's cape!


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## Cait

Were they ticked?


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## Seawatch Stud

I don't think they were ticked. Tony said they not only carried the satin gene, but also what the MRC Harwell referred to as "beige" and "pearl" genes which do not occur within the fancy. You would have to get hold of either/both those genes to recreate the "gold lame" effect. I don't know how easy it is to access lab stock these days, but I bet it's difficult and includes reams of paperwork.


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## Cait

I don't know about beige but Sarah (C) has pearls. I suppose it depends what beige was genetically. The reason I asked if they were ticked is because mice with undercolours are usually ticked e.g. argente, agouti, cinnamon etc.


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## Seawatch Stud

I still don't think they were ticked, though I understand why you would think that. I also don't think the labs "pearl" or "beige" genes were the same as we have in the fancy.


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## Cait

Has anyone on the forum obtained mice from labs recently (last 10 years, say) and how did they go about it if so? It would be interesting to see what else we might gain if it were available. I know the Jackson Laboratories in the USA sell mice but I would think you have to be a research institution to purchase them.


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## Matt Haslam

MouseBreeder said:


> Has anyone on the forum obtained mice from labs recently (last 10 years, say) and how did they go about it if so? It would be interesting to see what else we might gain if it were available. I know the Jackson Laboratories in the USA sell mice but I would think you have to be a research institution to purchase them.


you can get JAX mice in the UK, but you have to order 100's i'm led to believe.


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## Cait

By.... :?:


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## WNTMousery

Seawatch Stud said:


> I think Cait is right (again!!) Recessive yellow bred to chin should theoretically do it. Our dom yellow will only reduce to a kind of apricot colour.


 This is a very silly theory. As Sarah said, even breeding from the darkest colored Fawn mice she has, the Chinchillated version is still very pale. It would go to reason that RY mice which are much lighter than the UK Fawns would be even lighter when Chinchillated.


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## Seawatch Stud

As Sarah is trying to produce "lemon" or "yellow" coloured mice, getting them paler would be exactly what she would want.


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## WNTMousery

No, if you'd read the posts she has made, the Creams she is getting from even the darkest of parents is still *too light.* She just said that.


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## Seawatch Stud

Sarah. According to Dave Bumford, Roger Hutchings had "lemon" mice produced form RY and Chin. I'd give Dave a call if I were you.


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## Wight Isle Stud

WNTMousery said:


> No, if you'd read the posts she has made, the Creams she is getting from even the darkest of parents is still *too light.* She just said that.


you dont get the right colour straight off WNT, you get the genes right, then the long hard slog selecting for minor modifiers over a number of years kicks in.


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## SarahC

Seawatch Stud said:


> Sarah. I'd give Dave a call if I were you.


I'll clear a 3 hour slot for a chat.What became of the ry?Are all of the european ones ry?I swapped some of my brindles for some from Europe so perhaps I have those ingredients to hand.


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## SarahC

WNTMousery said:


> No, if you'd read the posts she has made, the Creams she is getting from even the darkest of parents is still *too light.* She just said that.


I'd be happy to hear any theories you may have.They have been pale thus far and also very poor breeders,very docile not the sort that rush round squeaking and mating,they would be nice pets.


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## SarahC

I'll be back. said:


> you dont get the right colour straight off WNT, you get the genes right, then the long hard slog selecting for minor modifiers over a number of years kicks in.


on a back burner now.I used the does with the splashed bucks which have produced(in splashed)chocolate foxes and those browny coloured chin carriers that people frequently want I.D ing.


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## WNTMousery

My whole point was that if you are getting mice which are too light even from very dark parents, there is no possible way to get darker mice from even lighter parents. I don't think that concept is too hard to grasp, is it?

(Where Dark is Dom. Yellow and Not as Dark is Rec. Yellow)

Dark x Dark = Light
Not as Dark x Not as Dark = Lighter

My theory is, Lemon is not a Chinchilla dilute.


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## Cait

Would you say lemon could be a normal RY, bred away from sootiness and for lightness?


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## WNTMousery

RY can definitely be bred in many shades. I've owned many shades over the years and seen even more. Most RY are not sooty. So yes that would be a definite possibility. Some are very light. I'm not sure of the exact shade of the Lemon mice that is required, though.

Were the lemons obese at all? Even Dom. Yellow can come in a variety of shades.

The Chinchilla gene dilutes any fawn pigment (on the pink eyed varieties) to a cream, which is why you could never use a Chinchilla diluted mouse to create a non-creamy mouse. Even on dark eyed varieties, the Chinchilla gene dilutes the golden/brown to a gray/pearl color. All the c-dilutes will make for a creamy version of Argente (if your p and c loci are crossed).


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## SarahC

WNTMousery said:


> Were the lemons obese at all? Even Dom. Yellow can come in a variety of shades.
> 
> .


there's no worth while info that I've come across.They all seem to have been owned by random people who joined the club for a short while before disappearing with their stock never to be heard of again.There's a few show reports and vague articles and one or 2 people that actually remember seeing them.I may resurrect an attempt some time in the future.'I'll be back' has posted a comment on the club face book page lamenting the loss or near loss of some accepted varieties.With this in mind I've cleared out some of my own varieties to resurrect a couple that haven't been seen for many moons.You will be pleased I'll be back that I am passing some black dutch to Phil H. and also providing him with some of the ingredients for creating another extreme rarity.I'm feeling quite enthused but I really do need a bigger shed.


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## Cait

SarahC said:


> With this in mind I've cleared out some of my own varieties to resurrect a couple that haven't been seen for many moons.You will be pleased I'll be back that I am passing some black dutch to Phil H. and also providing him with some of the ingredients for creating another extreme rarity.I'm feeling quite enthused but I really do need a bigger shed.


We all need a bigger shed  Do we get clues as to these rarer varieties or is it a wait and see? I am intrigued as always.


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## SarahC

it's a secret ,nothings paired yet.The only advantage of having chaos and bits and bob varieties is I seem to have just about one of everything,enough to get started.My bank holiday is filled with my new mousing plans.You have a garage :mrgreen: you greedy girl.


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## Cait

Happy to admit that I'm greedy  What I need is a minion to do all the hard work so I can do the best bits of mouse breeding :lol: You are of course welcome to any of my mice if they will help with your project.


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## SarahC

i thought you were going to say I'm welcome to be your minion  Dave is more minion ish than Mark.Thanks for the offer of mice.


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## Cait

:mrgreen: You can be my minion if you want but I can't see you doing anything but your own thing :thumbuo


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## WillowDragon

I once had a litter of pet type satins a few years ago, where two of which were what I would describe as Lemon coloured (They were pied too)... they were a lovely delicate shade, and were the (I believe) the result of extremely poor red also showing the blue gene (As we know the blue gene does lighten red) I will attempt to hunt for a picture of one...

K xx


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## WillowDragon

Ahh... more of a Peach really than a Lemon (Going with the fruit theme! lol) but I will show you anyway, just to show how light our lovely dominant reds can get too! lol










They darkened as they aged, they were much paler than this picture when they were in the nest.

K xx


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## Wight Isle Stud

WNTMousery said:


> My whole point was that if you are getting mice which are too light even from very dark parents, there is no possible way to get darker mice from even lighter parents. I don't think that concept is too hard to grasp, is it?
> 
> (Where Dark is Dom. Yellow and Not as Dark is Rec. Yellow)
> 
> Dark x Dark = Light
> Not as Dark x Not as Dark = Lighter
> 
> My theory is, Lemon is not a Chinchilla dilute.


The concept that needs grasping here is we have been intensifying or weakening colour in mice for over 120 years WNT, from whatever depth of colour the parents are , were. Its called selective breeding, thats my concept.


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## SarahY

> there is no possible way to get darker mice from even lighter parents


Tell that to the excellent English fanciers that made our blacks as dark as they are with no 'extreme black' gene :lol:
You can selectively breed for anything, it just takes a bit of common sense, perseverance and skill 

Sarah


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## SarahY

On the subject of lemon mice, the second picture down on this page:
http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/cream.html
the black eyed mouse made from dominant red and the chinchilla gene, is the lemoniest looking mouse I've ever seen.

Sarah xxx


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## Wight Isle Stud

now with selection to darken the coat, that could be it.


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## Roland

These are A/* cch/cch p/p from Golden Agouti (Agoutis from breeding Ay x Ay):


























and these mice are different shades of recessive yellow (bred over Golden Agouti), no dom red shown in the pic:









Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## Cait

Both the top mouse that Roland has posted and the PE cream that SarahY posted look lemony, so there's definitely something for SarahC to go at!


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## SarahC

yes,I very much like the mouse in the top picture of Rolands.I think yellow coloured mice are exceptionally pretty.


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## SarahC

this was where I was at.This doe is about to have her second splashed litter now though,shame in some ways because I really like the colour , a bit deeper and it would be beautiful to me


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