# Missing Hair - Why?



## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

Remember my poor littlest doe, Creamy? Well, she's in trouble again. *sigh* She has bald strips. When I first got her I separated her and another smaller doe out into a separate tank because they seemed to both be slightly bullied by the others. They seem to get along fine and now both are gaining weight nicely. However, today when I went to handle them I realized that they were sleeping separately. Then when I got Creamy out she had 2 balding patches on the side of her body. I didn't see any blood, but took some pictures to see what everyone thought. I don't know if it's fighting or allergies. I know Erica had some recent mice with balding issues, so I immediately suspected allergies or genetic issues. However, to me, the separate sleeping arrangements seemed odd. It's just the 2 does in that tank-why would they choose to sleep alone? ...Unless they were having room mate issues.

I have her separated out into her own small cage with the plainest cross-cut paper. So I guess we'll see.

Just so everyone knows... I have been spraying for mites every time I clean their cages. Also, I have not observed more than your normal scratching. I clean both cages once a week, or more if necessary. Feel free to ask more questions if you have any ideas about what it could be.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Looks like ringworm.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

How do I get rid of that??

P.S. She has been treated for Iver-On twice in her short life.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

iver only treats parasites.Ringworm is a fungus.It's very contagious and you can also catch it.Get some athletes foot powder and liberally sprinkle all your mice a couple of times a week over a fortnight.It is most likely that you bought the mice in already affected.


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## CatWoman (Jun 19, 2010)

You can usually tell if it's ringworm by shining a fluorescent black light over it. If it's ringworm, it will light up green.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

Would it hurt to just treat it?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

no,I treat routinely every 3 months and also treat any new mice.I introduced it to my stock and because I have so many it was a real headache to get rid of.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Is it because I dont have alot of mice that mine dont get many parasites/diseases I do try to prevent I think prevention is better than cure and quarantine of new individuals is pramount, or could My husbandry be satisfactory. I know you cant tell withouth me explaining the Husbandry or seeing it in detail .
or am I just lucky they havnt picked anything up?.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

you will only get ringworm if your animals come into contact with infected stock,pretty much any furred animal can get it.It's nothing to do with how clean your cages are.I would be 99% certain that the mouse pictured does have ringworm.Likewise if you own dogs or cats then they can pass fleas on.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

Okay, so new questions...

I went ahead and got the athletes foot powder, but how do I use it? And should I be treating my cat and dog too? The mice are in tanks in the same area of the house as the rest of the pets. Also, what about me and my kid? Should we be treated? And we're currently trying to conceive, should I be worried about getting it while TTC?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

just sprinkle it all over them.It won't hurt or sting,it might make them sneeze.You will know if you catch it.It starts as a tiny red spot that itches intensly and you can't get any relief.It bubbles up into tiny little blebs before turning into the classic red outer ring with normal inner skin.It also appears on dogs in the classic ring shape.Don't bother treating unless it appears.Its not dangerous or anything,it is literally just like athletes foot but on your body.If any of you or the dogs get it you can treat with canestan cream from the chemist or get your doctor to prescribe.It really is more of a nuisance than anything,I've caught it several times,fungus likes me.It won't affect your efforts to conceive thats for sure,good luck with that.


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## jessilynn (Jul 9, 2010)

You should also let the breeder know that her stock may be infected.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

I already messaged Erica.

Now I feel itchy all over. :roll: I think I'm just paranoid, though.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

Hey should I continue to quaratine the little doe with the missing hair? I treated everyone already.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Is the Daktarin athlete foot spray ok, or it must be powder?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

shadowmouse said:


> Hey should I continue to quaratine the little doe with the missing hair? I treated everyone already.


you can treat them all and keep them together.It's very easy to get rid of if you only have a few mice.I think the name makes it sound alarming but it's only called ringworm because of the shape it makes on your skin.It doesn't do that on the mice,they just get chunks of fur missing.It clears up spontaneously eventually as your body over comes it.The reason it is a problem when you breed alot is that each new lot of young gets infected.I have no experience of the spray Geordies mice.It might not be very pleasant for them to be blasted,the powder is readily available frm chemists and isn't harsh for them.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

I just picked up the powder at Walmart. I think it cost $3.60.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Years ago My Mum worked at Boots fashions.She was trying fur coats on (never bought one she loves animals)and she got ringworm from the collar of the coat. Her neck was covered,She said Her GP gave her cream for it, and it didnt last long but was quite sore .Well today I have bought some powder and Im going to dust them asa precaution thank you sarah c for the advice.Hope I dont get it lol :shock:


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## CatWoman (Jun 19, 2010)

shadowmouse said:


> Would it hurt to just treat it?


That's a kind of loaded question, subject to a whole lot of opinions and probably a fair amount of argument.

My opinion is that chemical treatments and medications should only be used once a specific issue has been confirmed, not thrown around willy-nilly, hoping to hit something. For that reason, I'm always more inclined to flash a black light over a skin lesion or check a quick skin scraping, before I break open the chemical treatments to treat something that may not even exist. I absolutely believe that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" but I don't believe that loading our animals (or ourselves) up with chemicals and medications constitutes prevention.

But, those are just my opinions. I'm sure there are people who disagree, and they're entitled to their opinions too.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

I went ahead and treated for it. I didn't know what to do and I didn't want to loose my Creamy. I don't have access to a florescent light that I could turn into a black florescent. I treated all 6 does.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

CatWoman said:


> shadowmouse said:
> 
> 
> > Would it hurt to just treat it?
> ...


that's an interesting topic on its own.What about inoculations,worming and flea treatments and even neutering for cats and dogs.Most of which are done routinely.I treat every animal I've got several times a year externally for parasites and the house and twice a year internally for worms in the case of the dogs.You can treat ringworm with tea tree but I'm all for the kill it dead with chemicals approach.Every mouse that leaves me is treated prior to being passed on as well.Then again the purpose of mouse keeping for you and I is different.Ringworm ruins the coat which is disastrous for showing,they aren't going to be eaten by anyone.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

I have just checked My Mice. One Male Siamese has a small darker patch of fur on his side, theres no fur missing just a darker shade .Could this be the start of Ringworm? He doesn't scratch or anything .Can you treat young pups who have just opened there eyes and are running around?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

no,theres no need for a stampede to treat for ringworm.The fur always drops out,yours is likely to just be a moult mark.In shadow mouses case not only was the fur missing but the owner of the breeding mice had also suffered bald spots on her mice.There is no need to treat unless they get it whence it can easily be got rid of.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Thank you SarahC for the advice anyone wants to know anything about gardening just ask me lol.I know most things


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

geordiesmice said:


> Thank you SarahC for the advice anyone wants to know anything about gardening just ask me lol.I know most things


Well, okay... I have a question about raspberry bushes. Can I cut them back in winter without killing them? They have starting growing over the edge of the garden and I'd like to prune them back.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

:lol:


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Raspberry bushes.......
They grow like triffids in my garden!

Hacked 'em right down last winter and they did _indeed_ grow back with just as much gusto this summer :roll:

Now ntopic

:lol: :lol:


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Shaddowmouse yes cut them back you just might have to wait longer for fruit. With Rasp canes it depends what type you have. If you cut the canes back in winter you may not get fruit in the summer/Autumn asthe cane will have to grow again, if there canes that fruit on the current years wood.You will be ok if there rasps that grow one season then fruit on the second years growth.You wont kill them if you cut them back you just might have to wait for the fruit.If you tell me the variety I can tell you what group they fall into for pruning,but cutting canes back will not kill them.In the spring give them a dressing of blood fish and bone.
I like raspberry varieties that grow and fruit in one season, you then cut them right down level with the ground in the Autumn .They are tough as old boots


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

No idea what kind they are. I got them from someone else's garden that didn't know what variety they were. All I know is they bare once a year in spring.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Those bushes can take over completely!! At my old house, if we hadn't had a boxer who liked to dive into the middle of them after squirrels, they'd have taken first the yard than the house....with the full cooperation of the birds and the mulberry bushes/trees/jungle.

Oh, yes, to the topic...it's a matter of unhappy accident combined with a moments lapse in good hygiene, and then you've got it. shadowmouse, didn't anyone warn you that children are powerful little disease vectors? I'm not kidding! Wash yourself everytime you've hugged and/or kissed the little darling, your son, as babies are dangerous!! GRRRR!! Gotta love, 'em though.


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## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

Ringworm to raspberries thats some leap even for this forum!. :lol:


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

hehe sorry was just trying to help lol


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

Well, geordie said to ask about gardens and I was just sitting here at my 'puter staring at the berry bushes.  Figured I'd ask. I think I'll trim them back after they bear in the spring. 

Moustress- I run a daycare, so my house gets regular bleaching. Lots of sticky kids, but good regular cleanings. Plus, I'm a little anal about sanitizing. That probably helps. :lol:


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

Seawatch Stud said:


> Ringworm to raspberries thats some leap even for this forum!. :lol:


Yes, well... we're just that talented!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

That says it all, then.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

well you can get ringworm from soil/dirt as its a fungus if you visit a garden or construction site so it is connected to gardening  but this one lives on fur lol


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## CatWoman (Jun 19, 2010)

SarahC said:


> CatWoman said:
> 
> 
> > shadowmouse said:
> ...


Just to clarify one thing first - I will not feed a mouse with ringworm, or any other disease, to my cats. I also wouldn't feed a BIS mouse covered in mite spray. If I wanted to feed diseased animal carcasses and chemicals to my cats, I'd buy commercial food and save myself a ton of work. 

My point wasn't about the glory of a show mouse's coat versus a poor feeder mouse who somehow doesn't need treatment, because it's just going to be eaten anyway. If my feeder mice have ringworm, mites, worms, URIs, or whatever else, then I will treat it with the most effective option. My point was the difference between guessing about what something is, and taking the time to confirm what something is. There's a time and a place for drug/chemical treatments, but there are also diagnostic steps to follow, so that you're not failing to treat the actual problem, while simultaneously exposing the animals to unnecessary drugs and chemicals.

To the rest - for me, everything I choose to do or not to do is based on balancing the risk against the benefit.

In my opinion, neutering is a no-brainer in the risk versus benefit analysis. I don't know about the situation in the UK, but it only takes a 10-second glance at the shelter situation in the US to realize that the benefits of neutering far outweigh the risks, for most animals. It's a sad fact that pet owners in the US are incapable of taking responsibility for their pets' reproductive activity, and the proof is in the millions of companion animals killed in our shelters every year. When you combine that with the fact that there has -never- been a study published in a reputable journal that shows any negative long-term health effects from neutering, but have been dozens that show positive long-term health effects, the question of neutering becomes a non-issue to me. With neutering, my focus is on the actions I can take to assure the surgery is as safe as possible for each animal. I

I don't use "preventative" chemical treatments for parasites (internal or external) on any of my animals. My dogs and cats get the core vaccines, once in their lifetime. I comply with the law regarding rabies vaccinations, but I do so under protest and spend a fair amount of energy advocating for changes in the vaccine laws. My rabbits don't get any vaccines. I only use flea/mite treatments if fleas/mites are actually confirmed by visualizing live fleas or flea dirt, swabs, or skin scrapings. I only de-worm my animals when the presence of worms is confirmed by a fecal exam. Because I feed raw and whole prey diets, my animals all have fecal checks 2-3 times a year. For heartworm, I test newly rescued dogs immediately, then 30 days later and everyone else gets tested twice a year - and again, no monthly prevention pills. My own pets never have fleas, mites, worms, or heartworm after their initial checks/treatments as new rescues. New rescues, almost always have all of them, with the exception of heartworm, and that's about 50/50.

Parasites thrive on unhealthy animals. If an animal is truly healthy, they don't make suitable hosts, so infestation is rare. On those rare occasions when a parasite drops in for a visit, a healthy animal's immune system will do its job and take care of it naturally. In my opinion, the "ounce of prevention" is found in the things that support and encourage overall health - a balanced, species appropriate diet, made up of quality ingredients; a clean environment, with plenty of mental stimulation; socialization appropriate to the animal's needs and personality; and minimizing unnecessary exposure to chemicals and medications that alter the natural body chemistry.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

CatWoman said:


> In my opinion, neutering is a no-brainer in the risk versus benefit analysis. I don't know about the situation in the UK, but it only takes a 10-second glance at the shelter situation in the US to realize that the benefits of neutering far outweigh the risks, for most animals. It's a sad fact that pet owners in the US are incapable of taking responsibility for their pets' reproductive activity, and the proof is in the millions of companion animals killed in our shelters every year.


It's the same here but I'm very dismayed to see that we are following the trend in the U.S.A of having very young puppies and kittens neutered.In my opinion vets who carry it out should be struck off.As you say though,that's just my opinion.It was interesting to read your well thought out views which are differing to mine


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## CatWoman (Jun 19, 2010)

I am not a big fan of pediatric spay/neuter and I'm also not a fan of the assembly line style mass neuter clinics, but I see them both as an unfortunate necessity for animals in certain situations. Ultimately, it goes back to people's unwillingness and inability to take responsibility for their pets.


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## Kallan (Aug 16, 2009)

SarahC said:


> It's the same here but I'm very dismayed to see that we are following the trend in the U.S.A of having very young puppies and kittens neutered.In my opinion vets who carry it out should be struck off.As you say though,that's just my opinion.It was interesting to read your well thought out views which are differing to mine


That's because research has shown that animals that are early neutered recover quicker. There are no extra adverse effects of doing animals between 3 and 6 months. Over here we are resistant to it because of habit more than anything else. We neuter from six months for dogs, sometimes earlier in cats if its a male wandering, a female in season young etc. Cats Protection are pushing it for cats now because we get so many females in who are younger than 6 months and already pregnant - we have such a problem with numbers and indescriminate breeding that it is much easier to neuter them when they're young, and rehome one cat, than having to hold a cat, let it have its kittens, and then try to rehome eight cats. I for one hope I won't get struck off for neutering early.



CatWoman said:


> When you combine that with the fact that there has -never- been a study published in a reputable journal that shows any negative long-term health effects from neutering


Bitch incontinence is a well known problem that has been linked to spaying. Age of neutering has no effect on the probability of a bitch getting it in later life, but neutering is a risk factor.

Sorry to play Devil's Advocate, but I have to bite my tongue enough during a working day, I can't do it at home too


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I am resistant to it because it is plain wrong to neuter babies.What about the mental development of dogs.I would never let anyone willing to neuter so young have an animal off of me and consider vets willing to do it a disgrace.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Thats my opinion and of course I understand others will differ.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

There was a woman lived near too me in a huge house. She had 38 cats they bred and bred they were all put down because of the poor state they were in .These came off one pair of cats, if the mother had been neutered there wouldnt of been 38 cats to be put down. Or if those kittens from the original parents had been neutered 38 cats would not of suffered in that house .In certain cases such as this neutering is an essential option.
There are people here in the uk have an obsession about breeding many animals,and like collecting you see it on tv people with hutches with 20 guinea pigs in, now neutering on these occasions is a must.It stops cruelty, and unwated animals.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm not against neutering ,I'm against neutering puppes and kittens from 8 weeks old and dogs under 6 months.People who collect animals are mentally ill in the same way as hoarders.Mentally ill people are a different issue entirely.Removing their animals and banning them doesn't end it.They start all over again.They are ill.Anyway as you can see I hold a strong opinion on it as I am sure we all do and as i have no wish to argue over something that doesn't involve mice I have nothing more to say.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

I used to work at a vet clinic. I am totally PRO neuter/spay, but ANTI doing it to the little babies. All my cats and dogs are spaying/neutered right at 6 mo. I grew up working with a feral cat population near my parent's farm. I know all about the essentials of spay/neuter. I also know the stupidity of people who get kittens, then dump them in the country when they become cats.


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