# fox babies :)



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I was sent a female fox a few weeks ago as part of a trade. She hadn't bred for the other owner, so I knew I may never get babies from her. I put her in with a self black male. I'm thrilled to say that in the last few days she has grown a nice sized belly and is busy imporving her nest today. Looks like I better go ahead and isolate her.  Off to build my breeding stand....


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

that's good news,fox are such an attractive variety.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm hoping that she didn't have the babies last night because I didn't manage to finish the stand. She is in her house right now, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Now to finish the stand...


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Yay, Jicama! Six months here, and nothing. I'm so proud of her! She made a fantastic nanny to Parsnip's litter, too.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Great to know! Maybe I can retire her as a nanny.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

She had her babies today. The male did NOT want to leave the nest, but I removed him anyway. I see five babies, but I'm not sure she was done. I'm fine with five since I won't need to cull.

On a side note, the male is sneezing constantly since removing him. Do some mice do this when stressed or is it an alergy?


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I got a glance at three of the babies and one looks to be black tan or fox. I'm not sure on the others as their top color is light and she covered them up quickly. However, any success is still success. I wonder what the other two hold in store for me...


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

does the black self carry any C dilution?
Cant waite for photos!


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Turns out that the black self is probably not the father. When I added up the days, I hadn't had her long enough. She was probably only 2-3 days pregnant when she arrived. That makes the daddy a brindle she had been with for months. tonight she didn't bury the babies as she ran, so I was able to see atleast two that look dark on top and white on the bottom. One is not a fox as it is still pink and one looks pied. They are starting to squirm around a lot, so I should be able to get a much better look later this week. I may also pull them to take a look, but I've waited on that since she trusts me less than my other does.


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

It could have just been a shorter gestation, too. Some mice occasionally have an extra day or two, or under. Brindle is dominant, so if you have any brindle at all you know he's the father, but if you have all a/a mice, he wasn't perhaps.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

She had the babies 14 days after I received her and I waited a few days before I put her in with the male. No worries. If I end up with a nice buck brindle, I have a great brindle mommy he may get to meet. If I end up with no brindles, that is cool too. I just want a few foxes to work with.


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Oh, I see! for some reason I thought she had them about 19 days after coming to your house, which is possible. Pictures please.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I managed to get Jicama to jump into a holding container so I could get a look at the babies. I could see the tops of three babies neatly tucked into the nest. Long story short, it turns out that she has been hiding seven babies when I thought she only had five. Two look to be black foxes, a third would be except for the white spot on its rump. One looks to be a brindle fox, is this possible? And one I'm not sure about. I moved a black fox runt and another with indistinguishable markings to a foster mother, leaving her 5 to nurse. The foster mommy and nurse (not sure who is who) have two babies that are starting to eat on their own. Both girls seemed thrilled to have the little ones (including one from my brindle) and went about tucking them under foot and building the nest back up. I'm very excited to see how the babies grow up. After all, they are the start to my fox line.


----------



## BlackCat99 (Jun 30, 2011)

glad to hear the foster parents took to the new ones so well  cant wait to see the babies


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Brindle fox is possible....I don't have the info on hand to tell you how...but I think it is.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I can't wait until fur comes in and I can see for sure. I've never heard of or seen pictures of a brindle fox. It looks like I may get what I want plus a very nice bonus. Until I saw this bub, I didn't think about a brindle being fox. My brindle female has markings that stop where a fox's would. The only mark on her very white belly is a small faded dot. Do you think she could be carrying the fox gene?


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Jade here is my favorite, simple, page for brindle genetics...enjoyyyy!

http://www.afrma.org/brindlemice.htm


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Ooh, that page is interesting. I'm really curious about what cch does to brindle. I'm finally back in town and can get that photo of Carrot uploaded for you. It's not great, since he's not my most camera-happy mouse, but it'll give you an idea. He's a very brightly colored standard orange/brown pied brindle, not fat but still quite stocky.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Very interesting article!

Laigaie, she has popped out some interesting bubs!


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)




----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

It looks like one has taken after daddy. Here are some pictures. The first is Jicama and then her litter. Five bubs total, but the brindle seemed to want its picture taken the most.


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Oh, yay! Look at that creamy belly! And a remarkably cute little brindle. She? didn't take after dad too much. She has more brindling and is rather darker in color. Oh, she's just so round, Jicama is. I'm so happy for you.


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Jicama is definitely a tan. She has that little bit of beige around her belly and up under her armpits and neck. Sometimes that's all that defines a tan. Fox would have bright white belly, almost the color of a PEW mouse's body.


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

tinyheart: My understanding (from Finnmouse Genetics) is that a poor fox and a poor tan are largely the same, and it takes selective breeding to get either to the bright colors expected of show mice. Tan at the demarcation line is listed as a common fault of black foxes.

http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/black_fox.html
http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/c-ch.html

That said, if Finnmouse is wrong on that one, I am, too.


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

What is her genotype?


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I got her from Laigaie, so I'll leave that question to her.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Here is another picture of her taken tonight with the room lights off and only using the flash. My room light has a colored dome on it so I don't know if it impacts coloring. I was also able to get her standing up this time. She is getting better about being held as she gets use to me, but I don't want to push things while she has bubs.


----------



## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

Comment removed.


----------



## Sharon_ (Jul 6, 2011)

Sorry but this isn't a fox  Very poor foxes have some light yellow hairs, when they are really bad. But this is just a poor tan and no fox


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Thankyou all for the correction. I never said their genotypes were the same. I said that it can be very difficult determining one from another, and than some non-white hairs are not uncommon at the demarcation line, particularly on poor foxes. I would appreciate it, *m137b*,
if you would not suggest that I am deliberately selling one kind of mouse as another. I will assume that was not your intention. As she was not bred by me, and would not breed while I had her, I do not know her genotype. That said, when I got her, I also got several tans, and even the pink-eyed tans had a very lovely rich and obviously tan belly. By comparison, I assumed she was simply a poor fox. Again, your correction has been made clear.


----------



## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

Laigaie said:


> Thankyou all for the correction. I never said their genotypes were the same. I said that it can be very difficult determining one from another, and than some non-white hairs are not uncommon at the demarcation line, particularly on poor foxes. I would appreciate it, *m137b*,
> if you would not suggest that I am deliberately selling one kind of mouse as another. I will assume that was not your intention. As she was not bred by me, and would not breed while I had her, I do not know her genotype. That said, when I got her, I also got several tans, and even the pink-eyed tans had a very lovely rich and obviously tan belly. By comparison, I assumed she was simply a poor fox. Again, your correction has been made clear.


*Laigaie* my statements are general, and not meant to condemn any one person or their actions or single them out. If you choose to take things like this personally I do appologize and I will refrain from commenting on animals associated with you in the future to prevent any further issues.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

FWIW, I do not feel that anything was done intentionally and must say that Laigaie was not exaggerating about Jicama's wonderful care of the bubs. She made a good nanny for you and has excelled as a mother here. Misunderstandings are very easy to have on the internet since we only have typed words to go by and normal communication is so much more than that.

Okay, consensus is that she is a very light tan. Where do I go from here?


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

New baby pictures:


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

How very interesting. Looks like one overmarked brindle, one undermarked brindle, and one in-between, though closer to overmarked. And two blacks. Of those two blacks, do either have the tan? And is either male? If so, you'd want to start with them/him. Since she's apparently not fox, but tan, you'll have to find cch to introduce in order to breed black foxes from your black tans.

Also, eyeball-opening stage is totally the cutest.


----------



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I don't know if it is male, but they do have tan bellies. There is one more undermarked brindle that I fostered to another doe as well as a black tan, but that black tan is much smaller and won't be kept for breeding.

Yes, I love this stage.


----------

