# Recessive Yellow...with something else?



## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

So, I've got two does that I may consider eventually starting a breeding project with.

However, since I'm still new to genetics in the mouse world, I'm a little confused about what all my does might have, and what I should look for in any bucks I might get in order to improve the lines.

So first is Caramel:



I know she's RY and has pink-eyes, so...pink-eyed dilution? She's a wonderful bright lemon color; compared to the reference picture I found on a UK mouse club site, she looks a little too pale...but that mouse also had dark eyes, so I'm not sure how that affects everything.

Next up is Mocha:



She's a variegated longhair, according to the breeder (well, the longhaired bit is fairly obvious). I'm not sure what the base color is? She seems too light to be a true chocolate, so would that make her light mock chocolate or coffee?

I know if I decide to breed Mocha, I'd like to improve the fluffiness (more consistent fluff, less scruff), and maybe improve color a bit? For both does, I'd probably need to improve body type...so, any tips on what their genetics are probably like, and what I should be looking for to make improvements?


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## thammy24 (Dec 20, 2012)

There's two ways about getting better pups. either getting an awesome stud mouse or always pick the best of the litter, which you should do even if you do find an awesome stud mouse. Also, keep litters small, so that your best pups get lots of milk. I think the way you pick the best pups is by looking at the head width. pick the 4-6 biggest pups with a high percentage of females, if the best pup is a boy, probably keep him as well. Then as they grow up, pick the best at 3 months (or two best) and breed with her.  And sell the others or keep them or whatever you prefer. If the very best pup happened to be a boy you might want to breed the best girl to her brother. Or breed the best girl back to the dad. You can do this for several generations that way you can concentrate the best qualities. eventually you'll need to outbreed to another good line though. In the genetics class I took small island populations that started with just 1 pair of the species didn't crash until after 10 generations though (that's when you get infertility problems)


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Here in the UK we don't have recessive yellow (it may have sneaked in on some imported mice maby but if it has its not wide spread) we have lethal red so they will look different. Not sure what pink eyed Ry is but here we called pink eyed red fawn.

I'd pick one thing to improve at a time so I'd work on type or better coat then when happy work on the other. It will take years of selection to get the perfect examples (2 years so far on my Siamese project) it will make it go faster if as said above you can get a good buck with the traits you want.

Basically all you do is decide what traits you want then select the young to keep who best match what you want then keep breeding back to that type, when I was darkening my Siamese I got a nice big black buck and bred him to my does and kept back the best girls and put them back to him. This is where inbreeding comes in at it fixes genes and traits, it can fix in good and bad traits so you can end up will the mice all breeding the same type you want but you must be very selective so you don't end up fixing in problems. This is where culling and selective breeding comes in. Only picking the best and removing the ones not good enough.


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

I wasn't aware of the recessive yellow vs. lethal yellow being a geographical distinction. I hope that means I don't have to worry quite so much about where the yellow genes are coming from, if I'm getting American stock rather than European.

Which is usually hardest to get right, color/coat or body type?

For the pink-eyed recessive yellow thing, in Caramel's case it looks light it lightened her shade of yellow quite a bit; depending on the light, she can range from bright lemony yellow to a very light caramel color. It's really pretty, though from what I've heard it's not that hard to get and doesn't usually meet the show standard.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Not all colour genes are widely advaible in all countries,some USA breeders imported the lethal red mice not long ago along with some others colours, our brindle is also a diffrent gene then the ones you have over there.

as for easiest both are realy about the same I'd say, if you plan to one day show I'd say colour would be harder if you don't know the exact shade your after, I ended up breeding my Siamese too dark to show, I prefur them darker and it was very easy to get them that dark with my black buck but now I have to work on getting them the right shade to show. Also when I out cross for type I lose some of the colour so have to work on colour again.
If you don't plan to one day show you can breed to the shade you like.


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

So I got some basic pedigree info from the breeder! It's a little tricky to figure out, the information is kind of spotty because it was a while ago and the breeder keeps her breeding mice in trios. One buck with two does, and the does are usually mother and daughter.

But, here is what I have so far, for Caramel:

1. Father: Satin Recessive Yellow (sa/sa a/a e/e)

2. Mother: Black Brindle? (a/a A^vy/*, may also have Lgh/lgh, Sa/sa, Ln/ln, and/or C/c^e)

3. Grandfather, maternal: Longhair Satin Blue Tan (lgh/lgh sa/sa a/a ln/ln A^t/*). Same maternal grandfather as Mocha.

4. Grandmother, maternal: C-Dilute Brindle (A^vy/* c^e/c^e?)

*Not totally certain if Caramel's mother is the C-Dilute Brindle or the Black Brindle...

I think that means Caramel's most likely genotype is Sa/sa a/a e/e p/p? Or would there also be het for longhair, brindle, or C-dilute? Am I using the correct notation for all of this? There were several gene variations listed for Cc, so I wasn't certain which one stood for "C-dilute."


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Brindle isn't recessive  It's a dominate gene, but you can have under marked brindle. Basically you aren't going to know until you breed her. With your buck not being brindle, you'll know if any are produced. I've got one right now that has 0 markings, but they were there when she first started to fur up.


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

Would the c-dilute genes contribute to not being able to see any brindle markings?

I'm hoping to avoid most of the really fancy markings for now, like brindle and variegated, because I'm just starting out and those seem to be a lot more complicated than breeding for type and selfs, and occasionally coat type. I'm mostly focusing on breeding towards show type, improving the basic colors, and maybe working with longhair/angora and satin (since those seem to be autosomal recessive and fairly easy to track). The main colors I think I'm working towards for now are chocolate, fawn/red (via recessive yellow), and gold/Lemon yellow. Gold/fawn/red and chocolate are for the show lines, the Lemon color is just for fun.

I'm hoping I can find a longhair/angora chocolate buck of a somewhat decent type, but it seems to be rather difficult. I know there's at least once breeder in my state who found one at a pet store, and I'm sort of wondering if there's a way to ask to be put on a waiting list to see if he produces any sons with the same look?

I'm new to animal breeding in general, so I'm not sure how to approach people politely about these things.

I grew up around breeders of various animals, but this is the first time I've delved into it myself so before now I wasn't really paying as close attention as I should have...I have friends that breed leopard geckos, ball pythons, and tarantulas, and it's fairly common with those creatures for hobbyists to offer trades or similar arrangements. Things like "I know you're keeping that one I really want for your own program, but if they have any offspring that look like them, can I get first dibs in exchange for giving you first pick of the babies that second generation produces?"

And I know with dogs, cats, and horses, there's stud services available...does that happen with mice? Where you pay the breeder just to sort of borrow the stud until a pregnancy is confirmed, and then give them back?

From what I've heard, it seems my best option for getting a second line of that bright lemon color would be a 100% cream buck. Seems like it's much easier to find good type with that than some of the darker colors (I guess because a lot of people are breeding champagnes and doves and other light colors for show?). If I could get a cream show-type (or close) buck who is also either satin, angora/longhair or even just het for those coat types, that would make my whole year!


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

No, you'd know if it was a c-dilute brindle, thankfully they stand out.

Here's some info on the different combos, including ce/ce:

http://www.afrma.org/brindlemice.htm

Here's my cch/c brindle, upper right hand corner. Had already proven the sire was carrying cch:










Another ce/ce brindle (not mine):










Undermarked:










Before the fur came in, her striping was similar to her brother's striping after fur came in:










Undermarked buck:


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

That bottom picture looks a lot like Caramel!

Just a bit more orange, less pastel, and he's got dark eyes instead of pink eyes.


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