# Genetics experts needed!!!



## love2read

As some of you may have figured out, I breed sugar gliders in addition to mice. However, unlike mice, very little is known about sugar glider genetics since the color variations are still very new.

With long-time mouse breeders having so much more experience with genetics and how everything works together to form different colors, I was hoping that you guys might be able to offer your expert opinions on a genetics debate that seems to be plaguing the sugar glider community.

I'll try sum it up as simply as possible...

To start, the "wild" color for sugar gliders is Standard Gray.

Here is a picture of a standard gray:









The color variation is question is called Platinum.

Here is a platinum:









Another color that has come into play(I'll explain later) is Leucistic, which, in the mouse community, is also known as BEW.

Here is a Leucistic:









Platinum has only been bred "in force" for a couple of years. Before that there were only a couple in existence and no one could figure out how to replicate them because their origin couldn't be pin-pointed and sugar gliders are not intentionally inbred like mice are, so it was very slow-going, especially considering that gliders only produce 1 or 2 joeys every 3-6 months. :/

Anyways, it has since been discovered that when a Platinum is paired with a Leucistic they will produce 100% Platinum joeys. However, if the Platinum also carries the Leucistic gene then they will produce both Platinum and Leucistic. However, if you will NEVER get Leucistics unless the Platinum carries the Leucistic gene(which I find unusual since you can get Platinums from a Leucistic that doesn't carry the Platinum gene).

However, when a Platinum Carrier is paired with a Leucistic or Leucistic Carrier then they will only produce Platinum OR Leucistic and not both. There has been ONE instance where a pairing produced both, but it's thought that it may have somehow been a fluke because it has yet to be replicated with another pairing.

There are certain breeders who are saying that a glider can only carry one gene or the other and that Leucistic and Platinum are on the same allele, which is why you will get platinums when you pair a Platinum to a Leucistic or Leucistic Carrier, even though that Leucistic/Leucistic Carrier doesn't carry the Platinum Gene.

Personally, I consider that theory to be completely incorrect since it's already been proven that a glider can carry both genes. Not only was there the above-mentioned glider, which produced both Leucistic and Platinum, but there have also been instances where gliders only produced leucistic or platinum, but their offspring went on to produce the other color, thus proving that their parent passed on the second gene. For example: there was a male glider who carried the genes for both Leucistic and Platinum but when paired with a Leucistic Carrier they produced only Leucistics and grays(carriers). However, one of their gray sons was also paired with a Leucistic Carrier and he ended up producing a Platinum, which shows that he inherited the Platinum gene from his father, thus proving that even though the father never produced a Platinum, he still carried the gene.

My personal "theory" is that gliders are capable of carrying both genes, but that when the 2 genes are paired together one will over-power the other, thus leading to gliders only being able to produce one or the other. However, they can still pass both genes on to their offspring.

Breeders told me I was wrong when I stated my opinion about the gene a couple years ago, but it has since been proven correct, imo.

Oh yeah, another thing breeders are saying is that Leucistics can't carry the platinum gene. I disagree with that theory as well. The reason is because it can't possibly be proven. In order to prove that a leucistic doesn't carry the platinum gene then you would have to pair them with a Platinum or Platinum Carrier to see if they produce Platinum. The problem is that we already know that you WILL get platinum by pairing one with a Leucistic, so such a pairing wouldn't prove anything. 

Anyways, any insight you guys might be able to offer on how the gene works would be very helpful! I can provide lineages and such to look at as well. The glider community as a whole isn't very knowledgeable about genetics since the only thing required to breed gliders is a basic knowledge of recessive and dominant genes. Most of the genes that exist in sugar gliders are very simple and easy to figure out, such as albino and mosaic(kinda like pied), so anything you can offer would be much-appreciated.


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## Stina

If there was ONE instance where both were produced.....I would look at that as the proof, not a fluke, when so few have been bred to start with.

Have leucistics ever been produced WITHOUT any platinum genes being present? From what I'm gathering, the answer may be no. If that's the case, and I'm reading everything correctly, its possible the leucistic coloring is dependant upon platinum for expression. You don't mention it, but it sounds like when these are bred together there are no "wild" colored offspring produced? It sounds like it might work like splashed in mice, where leucistic is only visible on a platinum glider. Let me know if it seems like it might work anything like this (get ready for a giant jumble of punnet squares...lol).....

sugargliders by CSBeck, on Flickr


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## sys15

if i follow your information correctly, it does sound likely that normal, platinum and leucistic are alleles of the same gene or locus, with an animal carrying both platinum and leucistic being phenotypically platinum.

i'm assuming that it is known that both platinum and leucistic appear to independently act as simple recessives to normal coloration. i'm also assuming that the male you say carried both leucistic and platinum (i assume you mean that it was normal, het for both) actually was just het for platinum.


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## love2read

Whoops! Sorry, I talked all about Platinum, but not Leucistic.  It was late and my brain was fried, lol.

Leucistic is Recessive, like Albino. It is only produced when a Leucistic and carrier or 2 carriers are paired together.

Leucistic + Leucistic = all Leucistic
Leucistic + Leucistic Carrier = 50% Leucistic
Leucistic Carrier + Leucistic Carrier = 25% Leucistic

Here's how it works with Platinum:

Leucistic + Platinum = all Platinum
Leucistic + Platinum carrier = 75% Platinum, 25% Gray
Leucistic Carrier + Platinum = 50% Platinum, 50% Gray
Leucistic Carrier + Platinum Carrier = 25% Platinum, 75% Gray

Now, if you mix the Leucistic gene into the Platinum this is what you'll get...

Leucistic + Platinum(Leucistic Carrier) = 50% Platinum, 50% Leucistic
Leucistic + Platinum(Leucistic Carrier) carrier = 75% Platinum OR Leucistic(not both), and 50% Gray
Leucistic Carrier + Platinum(Leucistic Carrier) = 50% Platinum OR Leucistic(not both)
Leucistic Carrier + Platinum Carrier(and Leucistic Carrier) = 25% Platinum OR Leucistic(not both), 75% Gray

There was only one instance where a glider produced both Platinum AND Leucistic. That pairing was a Leucistic Carrier X Platinum Carrier(and Leucistic Carrier).

What the glider community is trying to figure out is why platinum works with leucistic and not the other way around. Why are Leucistics able to produce Platinum, but Platinums aren't able to produce Leucistic? Also, why are pairings only able to produce one color or the other and not both?

What angers me is that some breeders are saying that joeys from a Platinum(Leucistic Carrier) will only carry one gene or the other and not both. I completely disagree with this theory and it angers me because not only is it wrong, but it's devaluing other breeders' gliders. A Platinum is worth about $2,000 while a Leucistic is only worth $500-$1,000 and carriers are about half the price of the colored gliders.

I had just bought my Platinum(Leucistic Carrier) when the theory started getting spread and when a breeder told me that my babies would only carry one gene or the other(thus halving their value) I told her to eat her theory, lol! Needless to say, I wasn't happy.

However, the theory was both created and spread by breeders who have "pure" Platinums(meaning, they don't carry the Leucistic gene), so, imo, it was all a ploy to help keep the value and desirability of their gliders high while lowering the value and desirability of other breeders' gliders.

That fact that the theory has already been disproven angers me more because the breeders refuse to accept that it's been disproven.

So, that's why I'm coming to you guys for help. Since they won't believe that their theory is wrong I need help finding out how Platinum REALLY works so they can have something different to "chew on" and will stop spreading their false theory.


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## love2read

Oh yeah, without the leucistic gene involved Platinum appears to be a recessive gene. However, it seems like the odds are a bit lower with Platinums. According to the Punnet Square you should get 50% Platinums if you pair a Platinum and a Carrier, but in reality breeders seem to get more like 25%.

That makes me wonder if, perhaps, it's actually MULTIPLE genes that create platinum? If it were 2 genes that had to work together instead of just one then that would lower the percentage to 25%, would it not?

No one has ever paired 2 Platinums as far as I know due to them being so costly and the fact that someone can simply pair a Platinum with a cheaper Leucistic and be guaranteed Platinum joeys. So, we have no idea if it will act like a normal recessive and produce all Platinums if 2 Platinums are paired together.

On a different note, I've paired a Platinum with a Cremino(T+ Albino) and gotten all grays. Cremino is a Recessive gene, so I wasn't sure what the outcome would be since I was the first person in history to do such a pairing. Since Platinum+Leucistic= all platinums I was curious to see if the same thing would happen with Cremino.


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## love2read

sys15 said:


> if i follow your information correctly, it does sound likely that normal, platinum and leucistic are alleles of the same gene or locus, with an animal carrying both platinum and leucistic being phenotypically platinum.
> 
> i'm assuming that it is known that both platinum and leucistic appear to independently act as simple recessives to normal coloration. i'm also assuming that the male you say carried both leucistic and platinum (i assume you mean that it was normal, het for both) actually was just het for platinum.


Yes, they both act as simple recessives to normal coloration. Paired with a gray they will only produce gray.

I didn't realize anyone in the mouse community used "het", that would have made it much easier to type up my original post, lol.

The male is a Platinum Het/Leucistic Het. His parents were hets for both genes, so he had a 66% chance of carrying both. He produced Leucistics and grays when paired with a Leucistic Het, but never any Platinums. However, his son produced Platinums when paired with a Leucistic Het, but has yet to produce any Leucistics.

I currently have a pairing set up that I hope will produce Platinum and Leucistic in hopes of having yet more proof to disprove the hoity-toity breeders who came up with the theory.

Personally, I think the fact that if you pair a Leucistic and a Platinum/Leucistic Het together and get both Platinum and Leucistic joeys is enough to prove that the theory is bollocks, but the big-shot breeders are saying that it only happens because 2 genes are on the same allele(whatever that means...I'm no genetics expert) and it doesn't meant that the gliders carry both genes.


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## mouselover01

Like you said, sugar gliders usually have 1-2 babies at a time every 3-6 months. I've noticed myself that you may only even get one set of babies per year. The moms best fertility I noticed to be at approx 2 years old, with maybe one litter at 1 year, 2 litters in their second year, maybe 2 in their third, and it starts to slow down as they age.

That means, each pair of gliders really only has a hand full of babies in their breeding life, which is a very small sample size.

Leu is recessive... that means you have 50% chance to get leu in every litter. I've had all gray (100%het leu) litters before, and I've had all leu litters before.

If plat is recessive, the same thing would go for them. You'd have a 50% chance to get plat in every litter.

BUT, it's ENTIRELY possible to breed a pair it's entire breeding life, and NEVER get a leu from a leuXhet pairing.

Is it possible that the lack of evidence showing that it can work the opposite way, is just the lack of legit "trials" ?

If you've ever flipped a fair coin and noticed that there are times you get heads 25 times straight and no tails. That doesn't mean that your odds change, it's still 50% heads and 50% tails. But the small sample size makes it seem that there is a higher chance of getting heads.

Could it be the "fluke" wasn't a fluke, but, rather, a fact that breeding leu to plat is not any different than breeding 2 recessive genes together?

Could plat be expressing leu at the same time and you just can't tell (like white mosaics)?


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## love2read

Mouselover01- that's something I was thinking as well, that it could just be chance that pairings are only producing one or the other and because gliders produce so few joeys there simply aren't enough to prove that the parent has both genes.

Another thing is that people who breed Platinum tend to want to get platinums and not leucistic, so if their Platinum carriers the leu gene they'll try and stay away from leu in their pairings and will stick with a Platinum het mate with little or no chance of carrying leu, thus eliminating any chance of getting leucistic joeys.

So, most gliders that have the chance of carrying both Platinum and Leucistic are being bred away from the Leu gene. It makes it difficult to prove gliders can carry both genes when hardly anyone is breeding to prove it. :/

I have a Platinum Het/Possible Leu Het(50%) girl I bred that I have paired with a Mosaic/Possible Leu Het(50%). They both look to carry the gene, so I'm really hoping to get some proof out of the pairing! I wanted to pair her with a Leucistic Het(100%), but, alas, I couldn't find any with lineage I liked. It's getting so hard to find gliders with good lines these days. *sigh* All of mine have excellent lineage, but I had to search high and low for them and some of them a friend of mine gave me(she paid an arm and a leg for them but was getting out of breeding and wanted to make sure they were bred well, which is why she gave them to me).


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## mouselover01

That's going to make it hard to figure out what you have when they produce.

You stand to produce white mosaic, plat mosaic (not necessarily plat gene), normal mosaic, or leu.

You'd have to breed the baby to a standard gray a few times to prove that a white baby is not a white mosaic. (because even if the baby was a mosaic, you won't necessarily get mosaic in the litters).

Or breed the "leu" you get from the litter, to a standard gray, and breed the standard gray back to a known LEU (with no mosaic in the background).

BTW, mosaics are my favorite.


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## love2read

I'm quite familiar with glider genetics, lol. I've been studying the colors and genetics for going on 5 years now. 

My very first pairing was a WF Mosaic/100% Leucistic Het male and a WFB/100% Leucistic Het female. At the time no one knew if Leucistics could "hide" traits like WF, Mosaic, WT, etc... I insisted that they could and that Leucistics could, indeed, be mosaics, so I sold my Leucistic joeys as "possible mosaics". Everyone thought I was crazy, but within less then a year my theory had been proven true and now everyone sells their leucistics as "possible mosaics" if a parent is a mosaic! :mrgreen: With leucistics the only way to tell if they're mosaics is to look at the ears because the ears are the only place that leus show gray pigment. If they ARE a mosaic then there's a chance they will get speckled ears, like some mosaics do, or pure white ears, which mosaics are also known to have sometimes. However, whether or not the ears show any marking they are still able to be mosaics because not all mosaics will show markings on their ears. Cricket is a perfect example of that. 

Who did you adopt your mosaic joey from? She looks familiar. What's her lineage?

Anyways, had I had a choice I would have paired my girl with a non-mosaic male because I hate crossing Platinum and Mosaic, but I couldn't find any males with suitable lineage and I really wanted a new mosaic line. The male had good lineage and was being offered to me in a trade, so, alas, that is the boy she ended up with.

Here's my girl's lineage: http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/module ... edid=15192

It's impeccable, as you can see, so I was very picky about her mate! Paired with the mosaic male their joeys have a COI of 0.2%, so, needless to say, I'm very happy about the pairing. :mrgreen: If they produce leucistic joeys they'll have the lowest COI of any leucistic joeys being produced right now, as far as I know.


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## Stina

> That makes me wonder if, perhaps, it's actually MULTIPLE genes that create platinum? If it were 2 genes that had to work together instead of just one then that would lower the percentage to 25%, would it not?


No, if it was 2 genes it would be a 1/16 chance.

If it is 2 alleles on the same locus, and platinum is dominant to leucistic, you would get all the ratios you said. If p is platinum and p^l is leucistic.... a pp animal would be platinum, a pp^l animal would be platinum, and an p^lp^l animal woudl be leucistic.

The only thing not explained is platinum with a carrier producing only 25% platinum...which I'm guessing might be a fluke if there have been a really small number of platinums bred.


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## Stina

If they are on the same allele, as makes sense, then it would be true that an animal cannot carry both!...HOWEVER if a platinum that is het for leucistic was bred to a leucistic carrier, you would get 1/2 gray, 1/4 platinum, 1/4 leucistic.


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## love2read

If they're on the same allele then what would the explanation be for the Platinum Carrier/Leucistic Carrier glider that produced both platinum and Leucistic? Was it just a fluke or is there something else at play?

Also, what about the male that only produced leucistic, but was able to pass on the Platinum gene to his gray son?

I'm glad you have an easy time understanding this kinda stuff because it's totally over my head! Lol. I have no problems with basic recessive and dominants, but it confuses me how 2 completely different-looking genes are able to work together, much less how they can work together to create one color but not the other. :?:


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## moustress

Great discussion! You are to be applauded for all the effort, both in asking the questions and in showing all the work. I just love to see this sort of thing.

Stina: You chicken scratchings made me a little dizzy but I'm so glad you included them.  I wish more breeders with develop this ability as it's really integral to the process.


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## sys15

love2read said:


> If they're on the same allele then what would the explanation be for the Platinum Carrier/Leucistic Carrier glider that produced both platinum and Leucistic? Was it just a fluke or is there something else at play?
> 
> Also, what about the male that only produced leucistic, but was able to pass on the Platinum gene to his gray son?


probably misidentification. people that produced wild type offspring from a pairing involving a platinum that was pp^l labeled their animals as het for platinum, when in fact they were half het plats and half het leus.


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## love2read

Let me see if I've got this figured out...

So, pp is platinum, p^l is Leucistic and pp^l is a platinum that carries leucistic? Would Leucistic be able to carry Platinum? I ask because that's another one of the debates. Most say that Leucistic can't carry Platinum. I don't agree or disagree, but I think it's unwise to assume it seeing as how there's no way to truelly prove it. I guess you could pair a Leucistic "Platinum Carrier" to a Leucistic Carrier and see if they produce Platinum, but I would think that with both parents carrying the Leucistic gene you would get only Leucistic and not Platinum. Not because the Leucistic doesn't carry Platinum, but rather because BOTH parents carry Leucistic, which wouldn't give Platinum the chance to show itself. Leucistic would be dominant over Platinum since in order for Platinum to show the offspring would have to inherit the Leu gene from the carrier parent and since the other parent is already a Leucistic then they would inherit Leu from that parent as well, thus resulting in a Leucistic.

Back to the issue of gliders being "Double Hets"...

We have pedigrees on all the the Platinums and Leucistics being bred today. There are 3 Leucistic lines(well, 2 more supposedly exist, but I don't think they're new lines...they have short pedigrees and are most likely from existing lines but no one kept records far enough back to prove it. There's also talk of one of the lines being from an accidental switcheroo...it wouldn't be the first time a breeder mixed up their gliders) and 2 Platinum lines.

One of the Platinum lines popped up when a breeder crossed a Leucistic carrier with a dominant variation called "White Faced". WF looks similar to gray but are lacking the bar under their ears and are usually a lighter shade of gray, kinda like platinums. We believe that the Platinums originated from a WF named Cereal.

Here is a WF(right) next to a gray(left):









The other Platinum line popped up from 2 grays that were owned by a mill breeder. She had over a thousand gliders and at the time she called the color "Champagne". It wasn't until later that we realized they were Platinums as well and when the 2 lines are paired together or with Leucistics/Leucistic Hets they will produce platinums.

Here's a link to the basic glider genetics/variations I have on my website: http://justforfuzzies.com/gliders/genetics

That lists most of the general info about the genes and which are dominant and might help to give you a better idea of what we're working with. It's very basic and shows how simple my understanding of genetics is, lol. It's a start though.


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## love2read

Sorry, I lost where I was going when I started talking about the lines..

Anyways, what I was trying to say was that we keep pedigrees on all of the gliders so there would be very little chance of a misidentification. That's why those pairings are so mind-boggling.


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## mouselover01

That mosaic was one that I produced a few years back 
I would have to see if I can find the lineage somewhere but if I remember correctly, her dad, was the son of Mr. Wiggles... I bought out Alchameys gliders when she sold out.

I've been breeding gliders since '06-'07. I don't have any now, but I hope to get some again and start breeding again in the near future.


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## sys15

love2read said:


> Sorry, I lost where I was going when I started talking about the lines..
> 
> Anyways, what I was trying to say was that we keep pedigrees on all of the gliders so there would be very little chance of a misidentification. That's why those pairings are so mind-boggling.


the misidentification would have occurred through the breeder not understanding his/her animal's genetics, not through a lack of records.

with re. to a leucistic carrying platinum, that would not be possible, if the hypothesis that the two traits are alleles of the same gene or locus is correct. it's just a hypothesis, it's not possible to do more than hypothesize without access to reliable data on parent phenotypes and offspring outcomes.


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## love2read

If it helps, here's the pedigrees for the 2 "original" Platinums:

Silverbelle- http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/module ... pedid=1254
Haley- http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/module ... ?pedid=607

If you click their names it will bring you to their info page which contains all of their registered offspring and such. With gliders we use percentages to represent the percentage of chance a glider has of carrying a certain gene. For example: a 100% Platinum Het would be a glider that definitely carries the gene. A 50% Platinum Het, on the other hand, means that it has a 50/50 chance of carrying the gene. Once a glider has proven out it is up-ed to a 100%. However, the database isn't always kept UTD, so some of the percentages might be off. Also, just because a glider says a lower percentage doesn't mean the glider doesn't carry the gene. It just means it hasn't been proven. I have a 66% Cremino Het that I KNOW carries the gene because she has garnet eyes, which is indicative of the gene, but until she's actually produced a cremino I can't change her percentage to 100%. Since I bred her out and now she's retired that means she will forever remain 66% "on paper", even though she's 100%.

Also, here's the lineage of the gliders I mentioned as being double hets:

Bernard- http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/module ... pedid=3005
His son Kalvin is the one that produced a platinum.
Miranda- http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/module ... pedid=2259

We don't list genetic codes because they aren't known for gliders, but hopefully the lineages will help to shed some light on them.


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## sys15

those pedigrees are consistent with the single gene/locus hypothesis. they don't really provide any information beyond that.


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## Stina

> That pairing was a Leucistic Carrier X Platinum Carrier(and Leucistic Carrier).


In this situation my guess would be a misidentification...one of them would have had to have been a platinum or leucistic if they are indeed alleles of the same gene... If one parent is Pp^l and the other Pp, then ~1/2 the offspring would be gray, and ~1/2 would be platinum carrying leucistic.....It wouldn't be possible to carry both. There wouldn't be a "fluke"....if a leucistic carrier bred to a platinum carrier produced both, then they cannot possible be on the same gene, or something else is at play. With all the other information though, everything else acts like 2 alleles on the same locus...so my guess would be that the "platinum carrier (and leucistic carrier)" was a platinum carrying leucistic, b/c then the cross would give you 1/2 gray, 1/4 platinum, and 1/4 leucistic.

do you happen to know, or have access to the pedigrees of these animals?


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## Stina

hmm....looking at the peds and offspring for those second 2 that does throw a wrench in the spokes there... Is it possible that mosaic could make a platinum look leucistic? B/c that could explain the confusion...


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## love2read

Hmmm...I didn't think about mosaic playing a part, but the answer is yes, mosaic could produce a white glider that looks like a leucistic. However, most white mosaics tend to show some signs of being mosaic, such as speckled ears or a few gray hairs on their backs. Also, when bred they will produce mosaics. They're also very rare.

It's certainly possible though. I would love to contact the breeder and find out if the "leucistic" has ever produced mosaic joeys, but, alas, I'm not really on speaking terms with them, lol. It's a long story...


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## Stina

lol...I just know I saw mosiac in those peds....so it would make sense if one or two of those "leucistics" were actually mosiac platinums


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## sys15

Stina said:


> hmm....looking at the peds and offspring for those second 2 that does throw a wrench in the spokes there... Is it possible that mosaic could make a platinum look leucistic? B/c that could explain the confusion...


stina, my guess is that the supposed plat animals are white faced blondes. looking at the photos, that trait appears phenotypically very similar.


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## love2read

Sys15, what makes WFB's are the lack of bar under their ear. Many platinums still have bars under their ears. Mine(the one pictured at the beginning of this thread) is not a WFB. 

However, the body coloring of a WFB is very similar to a Platinnum sometimes, but their body stripes are too dark to be considered Platinum. The characteristics of a Platinum are a body that is a very light silver, sometimes almost white, with thin, light gray markings. Platinums range in color, varying from Silver with light gray markings to white with silver markings.


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