# slowest rate of pinky growth that can be considered healthy?



## GibblyGiblets (Oct 2, 2011)

Ok, so I know the topic is probably confusing, but this is what I want to know.

what is the "slowest" rate of growth/development of a pinky that can still be seen as "healthy"? I.E ears unfolding, skin pigment showing up ect.

The reason I'm asking, is my momma mouse Merida (who I posted about before) had her new babies (accidental back to back litter) on friday night, the delivery took about 3 hours at which point I was starting to get worried, but after the first baby was born they started coming steadily (which makes me think the first one was stuck).

she had 11, 1 of which she culled herself (the first one) on saturday I culled the smallest 4 and left her with 6, then this morning I culled one more which did not appear to be growing at all.

the other five, I'm also concerned about, while they are growing, and have full bellies (infact at some points they look like they'll pop if they eat any more, yet they still go at it) they get so fat they can't roll over xD. anyways, only one, the largest, a little male, has gotten any kind of pigment showing up, the other four do not yet (both parents are dark, chocolate and black I dunno what lol, dad looks abit like a badly marked merle but I doubt that) and I know one of the two parents could carry some light color all the babies have black eyes, they are four days old,and their ears have not yet unfolded either, and for the most part they still look like newborns.

their movement is normal as far as I can see, they right themselves, they actively search for momma's nipples ect.

I'm just wondering how many more days I should give them before I start considering culling them off if they don;t start growing up to par

every baby I've ever had has grown as a set pace (ears unfold by 3 days, pigment by 3 and 4 days, ect.)

also noted that the older babies are not nursing any longer, so the new ones are getting all the milk.


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## wowwy (Jun 8, 2012)

You know whats funny My first 2 litters did the same thing, i didnt cull any of them cause honestly i dont have the heart to but, im not going to lie i should of culled the runt he is litterally half the size of them all and there like 4 weeks and 4 days old. Every thing on his body is proporsionate. but it was day 5 and there ears did not unfold. but the mums did cull one on there own. theyh are ppretty healthy now and growing fast


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

For me and my purposes, I'd cull any baby that isn't meeting daily growth standards. It means they are behind or mom can't give them enough nutrition. However, you may try supplementing mom and doing another cull. she really should not be nursing more than 6-8 absolute total.


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## GibblyGiblets (Oct 2, 2011)

currently she's only got 5, as i said I culled the litter of 10 down to 6 on day one then culled the smallest of the 6 today.

she's getting as much extra goodies as i can shovel down her tiny little rodent throat xD, luckily she eats certain things the older babies won't touch, she she gets it all.

I heard something about bread soaked on milk (regular cows milk) is that right? I know most mammals (including humans) can't digest cows milk, so it doesn't make much sense that something as small as a mouse could.

like I said, the 5 remaining babies are so full of milk I was afraid to pick them up earlier today, I was afraid they'd pop o3o, so she's deffinately got no shortage of milk, she's acting like they are completely normal (no pushing any away from the rest, no ignoring any) I THINK she may have been a bit sick during the last few days of the pregnancy, as her eyes did look a bit swollen and watery right after the delivery and for about a day afterward (but she always ate normally) I dunno if that could have any bearings on slow growth or not, but all the babies seem find otherwise


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

If I were you then, I would just let them develop as they will since there is only five and they are feeding well. You might have to accept that they might not end up breeding stock, but if they are full all the time then I'd bet they will be ok. Keep supplementing mom for sure, she might be behind herself. I don't use cows milk with myself or my mice, so I am super biased, but you can use KMR or plain soymilk to soak the bread.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

most adult mammals lose the ability to digest lactose - a sugar found in milk. it doesn't matter if it is cow's milk or milk from some other species.

they can still digest the other nutrients in milk, and the fermentation of moderate amounts of lactose in an animal's gut usually causes only temporary side effects.

if you it concerns you, there are easy alternatives. cheese for example, contains much less lactose than an equivalent quantity of milk.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

About milk and mammals; some lose the ability to digest dairy, some don't. I've read that cow's milk is bad for mousies, but many of the English breeders have used it for decades, and I think they would have known by now if it really was harmful.

Just consider the number of generations that encompasses; with inbreeding, those that couldn't use milk would have sickened and died, the others would go on and reproduce. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it makes sense that different populations that are isolated geographically would develop different tolerances for different foods.

That is true for humans and for different strains of many other animals. The metabolism of fats in mammals is just now beginning to be understood. Think of the new statin drugs and how they were touted as miracle drugs and prescribed to anyone with a moderately elevated levels of cholesterol and lipids; now they aren't sure if those drugs really do what they were meant to do. Lowering blood levels of those substances doesn't mean the stuff is out of the system, necessarily.]

Liver metabolism is an incredibly complicated subject, and before anyone jumps to ask for references, I want to remind those of yo who might that I am something of a pioneer in mammalian biochemistry. If you want the details, it's a long story that goes way back to the mid sixties, involving work in HS in collaboration with the University of Minnesota heart research department.

Different kinds of mousies will have different metabolisms. Discrimination is essential when determining requirements for any 
creature.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Still, I am not really sure why someone would feed their mice milk products, especially mice trying to raise litters, just to try and see if they are mice who can handle it. It may be well and good that some can use milk, but when there are cut and dry alternatives available, such as soy and KMR, in my mind it's not worth experimenting on a lactating doe. I am not talking about, oh, could a mouse ever in the history of mice digest it, I am talking about this particular situation.


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## Gill (Sep 16, 2011)

As Moustress quite rightly points out, many of us here in the UK [British, not English :evil: , pleeeeese], offer pregnant and lactating does bread soaked in milk. We are not experimenting; we know that the mothers benefit from the additional protein. I wonder if there is a genetic reason why our mice are lactose tolerant?


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## GibblyGiblets (Oct 2, 2011)

D= I just wanna know when I should think about culling if they're not developing right, one is deffeinately growing faster than the others, but the other four look like they're finally getting color


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## GibblyGiblets (Oct 2, 2011)

For some reason it cut off half my earlier post

but I was going to say is that I'm not doubting anyone who says that you can feed mice milk, if i wasn't afraid of something going wrong, I'd try it.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Reasonable enough. It's not like mousies need milk, after all. We agree to disagree and that's a good thing.


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## GibblyGiblets (Oct 2, 2011)

Well, it seems like they're finally catching up, I checked on them last night, and all but ones ears had unfolded, and all but one are getting skin pigment looks like 3 will be chocolate, (I thought chocolate was a recessive gene, or am I having a brain fart? e3e), a black pied and the pink one who's fur looks white (a black eyed white would be flail worthy) but I doubt that it'll be one xD


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Congrats! And yeah, chocolate is recessive.


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