# butchers and barbers



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I have a litter that has been seriously mutilated by the mother,removal of back limbs and tails and who is also a barber,the litter is also clean shaven.I've always viewed barbering as a minor problem but now I'm thinking again.Pondering whether these mother barbers are more highly strung and therefore more likely to maim.Testament to the resilience of pinkies the litter survived.I would have culled them had I discovered the deed earlier but by the time I checked the nest it was clear that despite the horror they were thriving.


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## Tinkers Mousery (Feb 20, 2011)

so have you culled them sarah?? i was just wondering up to what point can mice live with deformaties that may of been caused by the doe. In one of my litters when the doe was cleaning up the babies she accientlly nicked one of the pinkies feet. i think he is missing a toe or 2 and it looked a lot worse than it actually was. i cleaned him up and the leg and foot region have returned to normal pinkie colour. he did stop using the leg but i think its because it was sore as he wriggles around like mad now. he is doing great.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I've not culled them.They are on the point of opening their eyes.They have no feet at all but the stumps have healed cleanly.I'll see how they go.I can't see any reason why they won't manage,floor covering is soft so the stumps won't be rubbed.I've had occasional 3 legged ones and they are always o.k. I shall apply the same criteria for selection that I would have if this hadn't happened.If they remain strong and healthy and of good colour they can stay.


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## sarahsnake (Oct 28, 2009)

i was wondering if the tendancy to barber gets passed on at all?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

it s been passed on in my mice.It's prevailent in my tans.I'm unclear if it's learned behaviour or whether they have the tendancy for some other reason.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

I cannot say for sure, as non of us really know the answer, but our wild mice do eat a lot of animal protein, I dont feed them, but it is reported on here how much the mice love meal worms, etc. I supply my mice with vegetable proteins and animal proteins-vegetable as in the corns, peas beans and Tares, and fish proteins in their bread mash. They also have wooden boxes to munch on if they want. Feeding animal protein cant be the answer to the problem of butchering, (Sawn two springs to mind, you could of picked a better phrase sarah, but its stuck now) because it would be a known cure, but it may help with those that butcher for nutrional reasons, as opposed to any other cause, possibly learned behaviour as you say.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I did have a gruesome pic but it would appear that I have either inadvertently yacked the camera whilst cleaning the mice out or it is cosy and snug cohabiting with the mice in a box.There is a flaw in the protein theory.All the mice get treated the same and only the cham tans do it frequently.Also Stuart S and David M are having the same problem with pale tans and Sarahy has also experienced this.It is fairly likely that they all share some heritage.Lots of whisker free mice at Swindon.


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## Tinkers Mousery (Feb 20, 2011)

ok thanks. well the baby is doing fine and he still has most of his toes. The cham tans i got from you sarah have not shown any sign of barbering. they are all great  would it be something that could develop?


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## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

I give my stock animal protein. I use vitalin original dog "muesli" which contains 12% meat. I have few problems with litter savaging, certainly not with the frequency I see it reported on here. I have never had litters mutilated as you describe Sarah. The only mutilation I've had has been does nibbling the ends of babies tails.


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

Seawatch Stud said:


> I give my stock animal protein. I use vitalin original dog "muesli" which contains 12% meat. I have few problems with litter savaging, certainly not with the frequency I see it reported on here. I have never had litters mutilated as you describe Sarah. The only mutilation I've had has been does nibbling the ends of babies tails.


Same here - the odd end of tail missing, and if a baby is chewed, it tends to be the whole thing, and just the one rather than the whole litter. And my cham tans seems to be ok too, no whisker issues either - however, if it is hereditary, I don't have any blood from your cham tans, Sarah, so maybe that's something to do with it. Nightmare! :evil: I bet the three legged and footless ones turn out lovely, as well! Law of sod!


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

it's only a small percentage that whisker chew,just more of that particular variety than any other.Mutilation is virtually non heard of in them,it's just that this one shaved the legs off as well as the whiskers and I wondered if it was related.


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

oh, ok. On the whisker chewing, i don't really notice it happening at all with mine, but i wondered if this might be because i give mine cardboard to chew on - i know in parrots, a lack of feathers (plucked out by the parrot himself) is the same as nail biting - boredom and/or anxiety. Maybe bored mice chew off other mice's whiskers. Maybe try giving them some cardboard to chew on and see if the whisker biting isn't as bad? I do find that my tans chew the most cardboard, the fastest. (They are also the most sprightly and bouncy, and they tend to eat more than my other varieties.) Maybe they're wildly intelligent and get bored of each other's conversations quick, and look for something else to do... :lol:


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Yikes...I would think it related...especially if she is barbering the babies whiskers. I personally would remove her and any of her offspring from my breeding program....any barbers for that matter. I have had barbers myself...I get the impression that the behavior is somehow genetic, because mine mostly started after they were several months old...if it was learned I would think it more likely to start while they are still very young. Whatever the reason...if she does it, her babies are more likely to do it....and with her behavior being so severe I personally wouldn't risk keeping her or her offspring for future breeding.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

the mother is long gone.Another mother continued rearing the young.I just thought it was food for thought. I don't keep barbers either.I've never noticed such young mice to be de whiskered but maybe I just haven't looked closely enough.The mutilation made me notice in this instance.


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## wildrose (Apr 27, 2011)

Wow, this is so sad.  I'm glad the babies are doing okay though.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

they are completely weaned now,fast and fit and fully adapted.On first glance you wouldn't know anything was amiss.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I seem to have a serial barberer/overgroomer in Sonata my blue tri who is expecting her second litter any day. She has produced the same pattern of hair loss in two different bucks, and now I no longer think it was an allergy or ringworm, but the same thing. It
s on e same part of the body in each case!

So, now I'm thinking I should foster her babies so at least I don't have to worry about her nibbling on them. I wondered why she only had three in the nest the first time around, as she looked fairly well loaded before throwing the litter. I have an experienced mother who is set to deliver any hour now, and I'm hoping that doe delivers before Sonata does so I can foster them. That's an accidental pregnancy, so it would be a small sacrifice to make. I know it tends to run in the line, but I'm hoping it's at least part nurture and not all nature. :|


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## Lesley (May 7, 2011)

Any barbering, for whatever reason is sad!  
The limited experience I've had with whisker barbering is that at least they did grow back ...
Best wishes


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

it must be rare moustress,as we know they usually scoff the lot.Here is one, they have grown on much more now and are living amongst the others with out problems.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Very sad to see.

Well, as you probably read, Sonata delivered, and the 'pinch hitter' doe didn't...so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Deep Blue started looking better as soon as I put him in his own tank. I won't use her again, as I should have sufficient blue stock to continue with, and I'll keep an eye out for nibbling in those mousies.

I put Deep on a special feed mix without wheat as well, just in case it was dietary allergy; I'm a belt and suspenders person when it comes to my lovelies. Sonata's first mate is back on the regular mix and having no signs of any skin problems.


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