# Jerking motion - respiratory?



## clayzgurl

Hey, I just posted on the introduction thread to share my two female mice i have had for a few months now. but I have noticed this past week my one mouse is exhibiting a "jerky" motion and was looking for some help. I am wondering if this could be respiratory, as i read this is a common ailment. She also seems less active now. I was thinking of trying to book her an appointment at the vet tomorrow, unless it seems it may be too late? I am not familiar with mouse illnesses so any help would be appreciated!!
hopefully the link works, i thought the best way to show was to post a video. it takes a few seconds to start.
http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn18 ... V08686.mp4


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## AnnB

It does look like a respiratory problem, does she make a clicking sound or sneeze as well? If you can get her to the vet they should be able to prescribe some baytril to help keep the symptoms at bay. She will be less active due to the laboured breathing.


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## racingmouse

I`ve had a look at your video and she looks to be breathing abdominally. For now, I would`nt have her in that play-ball. She`s not breathing well and needs rest and kept with her cagemates. Those balls are not a good idea for any small animal. Mice are best let play on a surface like a bed covered with an old fleece or cotton tablecloth with some of their toys to hide in as it makes them feel secure.

See your vet for some Baytril and dose it orally (not in the drinking water) for a week. If you see an improvement, keep the Baytril going for another week ( don`t stop and start the doses) until symptoms are gone. She looks fine otherwise but watch that she`s eating well and does`nt lose weight due to this. Mice carry a bacteria called Mycoplasma Pulmonis that can trigger these episodes either on it`s own, or due to an opportunistic infection. Pneumonia can set in so the quicker she is on Baytril, the better.

Dose it morning, afternoon and evening on a small 5mm piece of broken, plain biscuit. You can slighly wet the biscuit just a little, drop the baytril onto the broken end and let it soak in for a few minutes. Give her the biscuit when she`s awake because if you wake her up, she`s likely to refuse it. Digestive (wheat) biscuits or plain tea biscuits are best for this. 

The best approach here is leave her alone with her friends, dose her with the Baytril three times a day and monitor how things are after the first week is up. It can take a few days or up to a week to see an improvement and don`t worry about dropping too much onto the biscuit (one to two `drops` three times a day is fine). Baytril is best dosed higher anyway. Too low a dose and it does nothing.


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## clayzgurl

thank you so much for the quick replies!!! I was able to get in to see an exotics vet today at 2:30 pm, so hopefully everything goes ok. She is at least the mouse that likes to be handled-my other one is a complete spazoid. I am also going to print out your post and take it to the appointment so I have a source to be able to ask some questions. My fingers are crossed that there will be a good prognosis.


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## Lizzle

That is an extremely ill little mouse. Her ears are down, her fur (including the fur on her head) is puffed up, and she is in the classic 'I'm in a ton of pain' hunched over position.  I also see flat out gasping, nevermind the abdominal breathing with accessory muscle usage (means she is straining and struggling for each breath), plus she's tachypneic (similar to hyperventilation). It's hard to see in the video, but I would bet her eyes are beginning to bulge as well from lack of oxygen. Can you run your finger over her back and feel her backbone? She appears malnourished (due to illness, not starvation as a primary cause).

Does she feel colder and weaker than normal to you?

I had a mouse die recently here who was very sick for a long time and unfortunately looked/acted like that for more than a week before she eventually died. I autopsied her (and let me point out here that I am a mere nursing student, not a doctor or vet!), and her lungs had been compressed by her heart, which had enlarged. Her liver and kidneys were enormous as well. I really have no idea which organ system failed first, but I would guess it was a cardiac issue to begin with. Her lungs didn't even have fluid in them or any discoloration at all.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for you at the vet! It really makes me feel horrible to say this, but your little mousie looks extremely unwell.. and may be at the point of no return (meaning she cannot improve because of multiple organ system failure). It may be best to put her down.  I'm not sure if you'd want to do this, but you might want to ask the vet if he/she would do an autopsy for you. I remember years ago my small animal vet did it for me for free on my guinea pig. She determined he died of liver failure, and I was later able to connect that to the type of bedding I was using - which saved future guinea pigs from a similar fate.

You and your little mousie are in my thoughts! <3


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## racingmouse

More good advice there from Lizzle. One of my girls was very bad over Christmas time with noisy/abdominal breathing and quite honestly, I thought I was going to lose her. I took the flu and could`nt get to my vet. By the Monday, I did get in (without the mice) and my vet had my Baytril prescription all ready for me. He (my vet) here in Scotland has advised that dosing baytril (enrofloxacin) is better at a higher dose in mice (two to three drops per day, three times a day) rather than just a minimal dose, as I`ve given in the past and found no effect.

I`m happy to say that Rosie (my girl who was bad over Christmas) survived and is nearly 18 months old now.  This type of breathng can indicate (as Lizzle said) heart/lung or other internal issues, but if caught in time and treated aggressively, it can save their little lives. Especially when you have pet mice and don`t want to lose one prematurely.

Update us once you have more information?


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## racingmouse

Just wanted to add to my post above, that I`m not sure whether my Baytril was diluted or not. It`s a suspension, so do ask your vet before taking my instructions on board okay?


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## Lizzle

Aww, I'm glad you could save her, racingmouse.  I actually thought my Sallymouse (yes, that was her name xD) had pneumonia of some sort, so initially I tried to get her to walk around and shake up those lungs. What I didn't realize at the time was that even if she did have pneumonia, multi system organ failure can't exactly be cured at that point. She couldn't regulate her body temperature anymore and she got cold just from walking for a few seconds. Warming up rice in a nice sock was my method of choice to keep her warm, and she loved it.

Clayzgurl, how did the vet visit go?


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## clayzgurl

okay, i just got back. the vet said pretty much what you guys are saying. She listened to her lungs and her breathing was def. fast and heavy (which you can pretty much tell from looking at her) and she said she looked pretty good except for the panting. well, her fur is little dull-but it is probably due to her not feeling too hot. Although she is small the vet said she didn't look too thin and there was no discharge or diarrhea. She couldn't really say how she got it or exactly what was wrong. we both agreed i should change out the bedding as i was using aspen (although i had never had an issue with it before i am stopping using it altogether). So i picked up "Eco-bedding" - it is a hypoallergenic, natural 1/8 inch cut paper. Hopefully this will help her.
She also prescribed Baytril (1 drop to be given twice daily for 14 days) and a diuretic-Lasix (1 drop to be given twice daily for 3 days, then 1 drop per day for 3 days) Do you think i need to do the Baytril 3 times daily??

So right now all i can really do is wait and see if this will help. But if i don't notice any improvement within a week i will probably call her to see what other options there might be.

I tried giving her the drops to see if she would just lick it but i had trouble getting them in her mouth. Is there a good or proper way to restrain her without hurting her? I just need her to stay still just for a moment so i can get them into her mouth.

I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me, and its good to see it is possible to come back from this! I will update as the days go on.


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## AnnB

Try putting the drops on a favourite bit of food, it's usually far easier than trying to restrain a mouse and will cause her less stress.


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## racingmouse

That`s great that your vet has given you baytril and a diuretic. Both should help. I would just go with the two drops a day for the first week and if her breathing gets better, keep it going for another week. I actually treat mice for three weeks to make sure all the bacteria have been suppressed. Sometimes when you stop treatment early, this allows bacteria that are still there to come back stronger, so it`s better to keep the medication going for that extra week.

Dose the Baytril on a small, 5mm piece of broken tea biscuit! Just place the baytril onto the broken end of the piece of biscuit and leave it to soak in. Only give her this when she up and about as she is more likely to eat it all. baytril has a bit of a `hot` taste. Some mice take it fine, other refuse point blank, so dosing it and disguising it on something sweet like biscuit helps. Just give it to her by placing it in front of her as you would a treat and watch her eat it from a distance. She will probably take it and run into a corner to eat it!

Sometimes baytril is wasted if the mouse refuses to take it or takes a few bits and refuses others, so it`s trial and error. But keep it going. One drop twice a day sounds low to me, but I have no idea what strength your vet has prescribed, so go with that. If after the first week she`s much the same, ask your vet about upping the dose to two drops three times a a day. Mice are very prone to bacterial respiratory problems and Baytril usually does the trick if dosed propely.


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## clayzgurl

Thank you so much for all the help you have given me, all this information will be in no doubt valuable to me if i continue to keep mice. I went out this morning and got digestive and tea biscuits. Though she still would not take it, even after leaving the pieces an hour with her. I tried putting just the baytril on it as well as moistening it with water. but about an hour or two ago i went to go and check on her and it was obvious that she was still declining. She suddenly had a seizer-like episode and then shortly passed away. I am still feeling quite down about it, it is never a good feeling when you lose a pet. I am not sure what else i could have done but in a way i am glad she does not have to suffer anymore.

I am worried about my other mousie girl (they were siblings) as she is _extremely_ skittish around humans and i have been thus unable to tame her, and i know she will need another mouse for companionship. Maybe after a little time, and a little research i will look into getting a companion or two for her.

again-thank you so much for the time you spent trying to help me out, i really appreciate it. I don't know anyone that has the experience and advice like that is shown on here and it is sad that the situation did not end as hoped.


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## racingmouse

I`m so sorry to hear that crayzgurl.  Everything you did was the right thing, so don`t blame yourself. She`s obviously suffered from something internally that was bigger than you originally thought.

I`ve just posted a reply to your `set-up` thread and I saw your two mice in the tank, one in the wheel playing! Which one was it that you lost?

Introducing two new females would be a good idea, but let her settle down first. She sounds like a nervous type anyway, so introductions may or may not go well. Intros need to be done in a neutral space and the tank/cage cleaned out. If you want her to have company though, I would do this sooner rather than later. Younger females would be the way to go as adult females can be a little more iffy, although it depends on their characters really. Mice are a bit like ourselves and don`t always get on, so matching their size and character if you can will help.

Again, I`m sorry to her of your loss. x


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## AnnB

Oh no, I'm so sorry. You may find that your remaining girl starts to crave your company now that she's on her own so maybe she will be easier to tame now. I have two boys from my local rescue centre, I've had them for about three months now and they'd obviously never been handled before. Initially they would just leap a mile when I put my hand near them but I can now let them run round on the bed and on me without worrying they'll escape. They still hate to be picked up but they are happy to sit on my shoulder.


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## racingmouse

Ann is right. When a mouse is left alone, they do tend to look for human company (sorry I should have mentioned this), so looking for a couple of companions for her would help.

Actually, if you do get her out and sit on your bed with some fleece or an old t.shirt, take something from her cage which already has her scent on it. You will find that she will either stay in there, or find it a `safe retreat` to run back to should she feel a bit nervous if she wanders out. This is what I do and it works a treat! I have a couple of new girls and only recently have they been out with me on the bed while I cleaned their cages and this is exactly what I do. Take them out in whatever encosure or house they happen to be in at the time (only not while they are sleeping obviously!) and transfer the mouse/mice that way.


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## clayzgurl

thank you all for your condolences, the girl I lost was maxine ( the grey and white one) she was the cutest thing with the weirdest quirks! However I do think whatever she had was much further progressed than originally thought. I am definitely going to try the bed technique on Mabel with something she can retreat into. She is just so nervous, she jumps on her wheel and tries to "run" away from me anytime I am doing stuff in the tank. Hopefully patience and treats will prevail.
I will probably keep my eyes open for a pair of younger females (although I want to try and avoid one that is really dominant) and I was thinking of moving them into a larger tank that would be more neutral territory. This way I could also add a second wheel and more stuff to play on. the tank is like 36x12 inches and 17 high so it should be good for a few meeces. I just have to build a lid, but I am going out for supplies today.


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## racingmouse

Sounds good.  My Betsy is like that (runs on her wheel is if trying to run in the opposite direction!) They act like this for a wee while really but they do start to settle down once you have had them a while. With a tank housing, you will also be approaching the mice from above, so being natural prey animals, they will see this big scary shadow over them! :lol:

Do you have any breeders neat to you at all? That would help your situation, but if not, a pet store or rescue would be fine. Just make sure you get females and not males! But do try the `house on the bed` trick and spend some time with her. Just a little at a time so as not to stress her too much and build on it until she`s not as nervous. Mice just need time and patience. She will miss having her friend around poor wee soul, but hopefully she won`t be alone too long. x


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