# a question for NMC BIS winners



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I have a question for or about those who've won BIS at an NMC show:

How many varieties do you keep?

I want to get a feel for how the "best of the best" operate. I have five varieties (including the cinnamon in with the red and such) and sometimes I feel like that's way too many and I'm not doing some of my varieties justice because I have so damn many.

So--how many varieties do you keep? What is typical of winners? Are there many good breeders in the UK who keep one and _only_ one variety? What about three or more varieties?

I'd imagine that the more varieties you keep, the less often you'd win anything. I know a US breeder who has dozens of varieties, and I can't imagine that'd go over well in the UK, but I don't live there so I'm open to hearing your thoughts!


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## JayneAlison (Nov 16, 2010)

Good question Jack,and one that I'll be very interested in hearing about myself,as I've been pondering the same


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I am not a BIS winner, but I do know that a lot of the fanciers that win often (winners of the top twenty etc) show mice in all five sections to maximise the amount of points they can win in a single show, so they keep at least five varieties.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Hmm...thanks, y'all! 

That's what I'd heard about a year ago, too, Sarah--that if you kept five varieties to show in all the sections, you would have more chances of accumulating accolades.

To me personally, five varieties seems like the uppermost limits on any one person doing justice to all of them (especially with varieties like broken where you need a lot of animals). If I were to cut down, I don't know which varieties I'd discontinue...but I do stand in awe at people with broken varieties (or more than one marked variety) who have hundreds of mice at one time. I couldn't do that!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I remember Dave Safe telling me that he used to have over a thousand mice at any one time. And when you remember that he feeds bread and milk to every mouse, every day, that's dedication!

Maybe 'lines' is a better description than varieties. You could have PEW, cream, ivory satin and cream satin in the one line and there wouldn't many more animals than a line consisting of one variety.

I'm happy with my small stud. I could take on more, but then I probably wouldn't be able to clean out twice a week and give litters such personal attention. If I had more they'd have everything they need and would still be in top condition but I enjoy being with my mice and I like how friendly they all are. After all the necessaries are done I like to spend time with the young mice particularly so that judges have a nice, tractable, quiet animal to handle.

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I've already made the decision that I will extremely selective about which mice I keep on in my brokens once I get my numbers up.
I'm happy with a small stud too, and I don't want to have to keep on so many of the brokens that I can't keep another variety in the future.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

SarahY said:


> I remember Dave Safe telling me that he used to have over a thousand mice at any one time. And when you remember that he feeds bread and milk to every mouse, every day, that's dedication!


I'd say so! I don't even feed my mice every day. 



> Maybe 'lines' is a better description than varieties. You could have PEW, cream, ivory satin and cream satin in the one line and there wouldn't many more animals than a line consisting of one variety.


This is true. I like the idea of looking at it that way. My reds produce (and will always produce) cinnamons, and my PEWs are related to the doves and champagnes.


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## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

I have won many BIS on many occasions, and have also won the "top twenty". I think most of the things said here are fair, but curiously by people who have never won any top awards. Jack is right in that more than five varieties are unmanageable for one person. The logistics of looking after four or five hundred animals is a huge and expensive undertaking. Sarah is also right to say "lines" rather than "varieties" for the reasons she points out. It must however be said that most of the "top twenty" winners do not keep five or more varieties. Terry Thorne won it last year and he only had a Cream line so could only show in two sections maximum. The year before was Peter Barker with two varieties, and myself the year before that with three. I think the vast majority of fanciers keep between one and three varieties at most. As far as marked mice like Brokens or Dutch are concerned, the fact that lady luck plays such a major role in what they produce dictates that numbers must be kept to win on a regular basis. You can't "fix" markings like you can "fix" type and colour. One of the biggest mistakes newbies make is keeping too many varieties because they like the pretty colours. You often hear said "I don't care about winning" by newbies who keep too many, or too difficult varieties, but consistently losing at shows is disheartening and they usually revise that thinking in short order. I have usually kept three main varieties plus one or two little sideline projects with rare or unusual mice. To answer your other question Jack, many fanciers only keep one variety and do very well with it.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

So you think my imaginings for only having around 50 mice and no more for my brokens is not gonna work? =o/

We shall see... I'm really liking them as a variety, but I have to admit to missing my pale selfs, so was hoping to start up a line of PEW's and Ivories again later in the year...

W xx


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## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

No I don't think it wont work, but you will statistically have half as many winners half as often than if you had 100 mice. If you kept a pale self you could reduce those odds in your favour through selection far more effectively than with marked.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Ahh but if I breed often but cull ruthlessly with my brokens, it could work. Thats my plan, I don't plan on breeding less, I plan on culling more!
Plus really, if I get brokens I think are winners and do turn out to BE winners (Cos you know i'm sure we've all been in the position at some point of having a 'fabulous' mouse and then take it to the show and see the competition and realise its not quite so fabulous as you thought! lol) then techinically they could have a longer shelf life for shows than my pale selfs did.

I dunno, i'm probably dreaming... though I certainly don't want another marked variety, I thought for months about which one I wanted, long before the disaster in my shed!
I'll be honest and say its satins I really want back, I adore that variety, but marked satins are a little pointless, pretty, but pointless.

W xx


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

I just wondered if someone could give me an idea of a good number of mice, males and females to keep a healthy stud going, per variety please.


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## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

I would say somewhere between three and four bucks and about a dozen to sixteen does as your breeding stock. Any more than this is pointless, any less is not really enough to say you have a viable self contained stud. Obviously you will have young mice of various ages also, some of which will take the place of existing breeders as time goes on.There are three things to remember when building and running a stud, selection, selection and selection. Keep the best, get rid of the rest. The exceptions to these rules are the marked varieties. With them breed as many as possible and keep your fingers crossed. The two worst marked mice in your shed mated together could still breed winners, and vice versa.


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

To begin with do you concentrate on building up numbers or only keeping the best?


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## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

As with most mouse related topics, balance is the key. You must build up numbers, but you don't want a stud full of second rate mice. Breed numbers, select and reduce. Repeat this process gradually building up numbers as you go. Be rigorous in your selection, and never let your heart rule your head. This is stockmanship, and it's what separates fanciers from pet keepers.


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## mousemad (Jun 7, 2010)

Of the 3 or 4 bucks how many would be working? do you keep some in reserve or just use them all?


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## paulbrv65 (Apr 23, 2009)

I have been fortunate enough to win Best in Show and I keep Cream and PEW lines, but these are also satinised, so I can show two varieties. Showing Mice to me is like showing any other animal you have to have dedication and commitment to have sucess. To stand any chance of competing with the likes of Phil, Terry, Dave Safe, Peter Barker, Ruth and Stewart, Sarah, Heather, Sam, Ian Scott, just to name a few (sorry to the people who I have not named or I would be on here all day) you need to work very hard. You cant afford to be disheartend if you dont win at your first few shows, keep going ask advice members will give it freely. If you work hard, it has been proven on many occasions, you can win with one colour let alone one variety.

Paul


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Greatest Fanciers of the last 40 years, in no particular order- Jack Hartley, one strain of reds, agoutis and cinnamons. Frank Hawley, 1 breed at a time. Dek Taylor, one breed at a time. All won their sections evry show, and best in show every 5 shows. All of them had a few boxes of "summat else "


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

That's very good news for those of us with only a couple of varieties!

Sarah xxx


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## katytwinkle (Aug 28, 2010)

some more excellent and invaluable information on here again today - its good for newbies like us to hear this type of thing! - and far from being a BIS winner ( i havent yet entered my first show!) - but im sticking to one variety- and trying to build up the lines that i currently have.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

There is a way of keeping two breeds with only 18 boxes, you cut one breed right down, build the other right up, and se saw this way. However it does limit planning litters for shows. I have always had big studs and multiple breeds, and proportionately had the time. However, lots of you have a few milestones to go in life yet,and there will be lots of calls on your time, during these spells, having children, work, and al that, too many boxes of mice and the enevitable happens. Although I would like everyone to have hundreds of boxes its usually better to have just 20 or so then if necessary feeding can take ten minutes and cleaning out an hour. You can also disguise the cleanings out as domestic rubbish and get it taken away for you. This wonderfull hobby never becomes a chore then.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thank you all for such thorough and informative responses, as always. I really appreciate it!


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