# Non-U.S. Breeders... do you...??



## nuedaimice

I have a question for all of the Non U.S. Breeders. There is a growing phenomenon in the U.S. regarding mice breeders where more and more breeders are demanding extreme stipulations on mice (including the potential return of) in the forms of contracted mice including any descendants for up to 5 generations.

I was wondering, if any non U.S. breeders employ this practice with their mice?


----------



## SarahY

Not in the UK, thank goodness  Mice are generally swapped about between show breeders with no problems. On the whole, mouse fanciers are a very friendly, helpful lot; happy to give mice to a breeder that needs them.

Contracts on mice 5 generations down the line is just plain RIDICULOUS! I've never heard of such a thing! :lol:

Sarah xxx


----------



## Jemma

I'm not breeding (yet!) but, to a point, I understand where people who insist on contracts are coming from.

Having buyers sign a contract (even though they're not legally binding) tends to put off anyone with less honourable intentions, which would be helpful if selling mice to someone you don't know/trust. I've seen mouse breeders say they're hesitant to sell to the public because good homes can't be guaranteed and if a reasonable contract helps in that case, I don't think it's a big deal.

I assume the reason for the 5-generation thing is to stop a new breeder taking all the credit for breeding nice mice, when the person they got them from was the one that really did all the work? That does seem excessive to me - from what I can see, British breeders seem happy to credit whoever got them started  Besides, surely others would notice if someone tried to pull a fast one?! :lol:


----------



## Cait

Unlike the rat fancy, which is more pet orientated, the UK mouse fancy does not use contracts. Private breeders may do, but to be honest since everyone knows they're not legally binding it doesn't matter if someone signs it or not - it doesn't stop a potential bad owner because they are not bound by it, and tbh it can be hard if not impossible to know what happens to an animal once it leaves your care if the new owner refuses to keep in touch. Since the UK mouse fancy is a case of all the regular show-goers know each other, that's why there isn't a problem swapping or giving mice to each other. As has been said it's ironically members of the public who want pets that tend to be the problem owners. I've had some lovely people have pet mice from me but I've also had a couple who seemed fine, but turned out to be very poor owners despite having other mice. In one case a friend of mine went and collected the mice I bred and was shocked at the state they had been allowed to get into (they're fine now).


----------



## ian

It all sounds so silly, why bother to sell them at all. I am not too concerned about the homes my mice go to, unless the perosn is clearly a weirdo. I think its better for them to have a chance at some kind of life rather than being culled when I decide they are undesirable for breeding. I think after you sell an animal you have no say over how it kept or used. Why should you, the buyer has no right to tell you how to spend their money.


----------



## Autumn2005

I have a friend in CA who just entered into a contract that she has to keep three generations before letting any go to a new home.


----------



## Cait

Unfortunately animals do attract, and I'm phrasing this politely, nutters. All you can do is speak to the person who would like your animals (whatever species) and try and see if they are knowledgeable (or learning) and what sort of person they are. You can never get it right 100% of the time sadly, contracts do not change that. What exactly do the contracts in the OP consist of?


----------



## Jack Garcia

Most of the European mice I've bought (but not all) are contract-free.

Most of the American mice I've bought (but not all) are under contract.

Some of my own mice are under contract. Most are not.



MouseBreeder said:


> What exactly do the contracts in the OP consist of?


Generally, a contract in the US may include things such as proper veterinary care for the animal, return of the animal if at any time the original owner breaks the terms of the contract (too common, unfortunately), stipulations as to which club(s) the mouse/mice must be shown under, and what should happen to the mice if the adopter dies or is incarcerated, etc. These contracts often go as far as three generations down the line, but sometimes as many as five (I have some under 5-generation contracts still). I've signed mouse contracts from KAW, WNT, CSB, and MyLM in the US, if I remember right. Each of them is at least two pages and each has a long list of requirements. Most others don't use written contracts, as far as I'm aware. I've never broken a contract, so I don't know if any of the breeders would actually take it to court, but I do turn my copies over to my lawyer, just in case something were to come of it (she lives near me so it's not a big deal) and she has told me some of them would not be enforceable because of their vagueness.

The terms and conditions in a contract are related (somewhat) to the concept of co-ownership of show dogs: http://greaterswiss.com/contracts.htm For one (or three or five) generations, you enter into a kind of co-ownership, then the contract dissolves.

The show mice who are under contract are generally the ones who have had a lot of work put into them and the original breeder wants the animals to be continued on properly. Breaking the contract by breeding them improperly (such as chinchilla to recessive yellow splashed) is a serious matter when you consider the years of work that have gone into improving the original mice, on both sides of the Atlantic.

I've never heard of contracts for mixed-ancestry or pet-typed mice. I'm sure they exist, though. I just don't personally ever buy those mice.

I have mixed-feelings about contracts, myself. I honor the ones I sign but I don't usually make other people sign contracts unless I am contractually bound to do so.


----------



## Wight Isle Stud

how many times have senior breeders let strains of winning mice go to persons who have been in the fancy a year or so, make all the right noises etc, only to find a year or so later that they have given up and the mice are down the pet store or worse. loads times . a contract saying that the mice have to be retuned to the original supplier if the fancier gives up the breed would be good. five generations-load of rubbuish ! a strain belongs to the breeder by then !


----------



## Jack Garcia

I'll be back. said:


> how many times have senior breeders let strains of winning mice go to persons who have been in the fancy a year or so, make all the right noises etc, only to find a year or so later that they have given up and the mice are down the pet store or worse. loads times . a contract saying that the mice have to be retuned to the original supplier if the fancier gives up the breed would be good. five generations-load of rubbuish ! a strain belongs to the breeder by then !


Yeah, by 5 generations the mice are the product of the (new) breeder. That's why all the ones I've encountered stop at 3 or 5 generations. After that, the contract dissolves.

Just like in the UK, in the US talented breeders have let strains of winning mice go to people who ended up doing bad by them. No matter how safe you are, sometimes it turns out the person you adopted to is a nutter, or worse, an animal hoarder. That's a big reason as to why the contracts exist in the US. But at the end of the day, it's a mixed-bag. Some good show breeders use them; others don't. Some only use them part of the time.


----------



## nuedaimice

I have spoken to people familiar with animal law, and according to them, even dog contracts are hard to uphold in court, because, legally, the animal belongs to the purchaser, regardless of the contract. There are a lot of dog breeders who have been unable to get dogs back even after a breach of contract.

And you seem to misunderstand the "co-ownership" part. I have co-owned 3 different Aussies in my lifetime, and the contract was not what made the co-ownership. The breeder and myself could have both thrown the contract out the window and the dog still would have been co-owned because it was registered to both the breeder and myself through the AKC and ASCA. I could not have done anything with the dog (such as breeding or transferring ownership) without the breeder signing the papers also. However, I could have bred the dog and sold the puppies without AKC or ASCA papers, and have breached the contract if I had and, at that point, the breeder may have fought to get their dog back, but would have never been able to get the puppies back (but may have sued for damages or profits earned off of the litter - depending on stipulations specifically written in the contract).

The contract is not just there to protect the dog, its also there to protect the buyer. Dog contracts typically state that if the dog develops a congenital defect before the age of 2 (or 26 months, or 24 months, or 32 months, etc.) then the breeder will replace the dog (often two options will be given for replacement and some may offer a refund, but this is not common). It also states that if certain conditions are met (ie. the dog achieves a title and health clearances are complete) then the breeder will sign the dog's registration papers over to the new owner making the dog fully and completely theirs. If the purchaser never meets those stipulations or breaches the contract, the breeder can attempt to get the dog back and refuse to sign off on the dog's papers.

The biggest difference here between a dog contract and these mouse "contracts", are that the dog does eventually become the sole property of the purchaser, and the breeder may ask for a puppy back (but the papers will not be signed over until this step in the contract is complete also) or use of the dog as a stud later, but they do not ever place stipulations on the dog or its offspring or what dogs that dog can be bred to AFTER the purchaser is given the papers and the dog is fully and completely theirs.

I don't see how anyone can contract generation upon generation of any animal, as they would have to prove that those animals were theirs, and in order to do so without any doubt, would need to obtain DNA evidence that those animals were off of that line. And that would require the breeder to keep DNA samples of all mice sold on file for DNA comparison if ANY breach of contract occurred.

I have never purchased any mice where I had to sign a contract (in the US). I have had mice where there were stipulations to be met BEFORE the exchange of animals went down, and that was merely becoming a member of a club before they would sell to me, which I have no problem with. And I have made "good-faith" statements to people, such as telling them I would not release their lines for 3 generations, but it was never required. It was done merely as a testament as to my respect for that breeder and her hard work over the last 20+ years. I do not think she really cared one way or the other.

Out of curiosity, why would a contract stipulate that a mouse couldn't be bred to a certain color? What if that breeder purchased that mouse specifically to work on a new variety they were trying to standardize, and that cross was required to make it?

Mouse Breeder, I have heard a lot of different things stipulated, but I have also heard that there a some breeders who use those "contracts" to take back mice for no reason or without any breach of the contract. I also heard, if they suddenly decide they don't like the purchaser one day, they up and try to take their mice back (including descendants) just to be spiteful and hurt the other breeder's breeding program. And (in some of those instances) instead of trying to obtain the animals legally or take the person to court, they threaten, harass, and stalk them at public events. So I've heard. I'm not 100% positive on the truthfulness of these events, but I've heard. In some cases, I even heard tales of mice being given away and then the person they were given to told they were contracted AFTER they got the mice home (several hours away) OR the person claiming there was a verbal contract in place later because no signed contract could be presented.

All I know is, I don't care how nice the mice are, I would never want to purchase animals with such unreasonable stipulations, and would probably just go to a different breeder, even if it does mean a little extra hard work breeding a nicer specimen for show. (I used to do contracts for pet animals 9 years ago, but after learning the hard way they didn't hold up in court, I stopped and just screened adopters more carefully).


----------



## Jack Garcia

It seems like you have specific issues and questions for certain individuals. If this is the case, you should address these questions to them personally instead of making what seems to be thinly-veiled references on public forums where they may or may not even read (I know at least one of them doesn't have an account here...probably neither of them do). Thanks.


----------



## nuedaimice

Jack, I was merely answering a question. I don't have any personal issues with anyone or their contracts. And that was things that have been told to me by multiple fanciers not just one. But as I said, I have merely heard these things and do not know the truth to these matters. I do not even know who the breeder is in some of these instances, so would not be able to question them further regarding their practices.


----------



## MarlaAlVutha

I personally do not have contracts. I try and adopt to like minded people, who are completely aware that I am an unethical breeder, and do not have have issues with the way my animals are kept or bred. In addition I screen new people carefully. I am more apt to adopt a pet that is not from lines that I am pressed over to people I do not know as well.

I have witnessed contracts in the rat hobby that darn-near make you sign over your first born to them for the option of hosting their rat at your house. You have to contact them with every potential breeding for 5 or more generations, and if you do one thing they do not agree with they will sue you for both reposession of the rat and damages. When I first talked to the breeder who told me this I thought she was joking. But no she was serious.


----------



## Cait

I'll be back. said:


> how many times have senior breeders let strains of winning mice go to persons who have been in the fancy a year or so, make all the right noises etc, only to find a year or so later that they have given up and the mice are down the pet store or worse. loads times . a contract saying that the mice have to be retuned to the original supplier if the fancier gives up the breed would be good. five generations-load of rubbuish ! a strain belongs to the breeder by then !


I think all fanciers who have been breeding for a few years (at least in the UK) have had this happen to them, I certainly have a few times. I don't see how a contract will change that - if the buyer never shows etc they don't make the effort to return the mice either, or they sell them off. Either that or by the time they give up they have bred the mice without proper selection and the original show breeder would have no use for taking them back anyway as they have devolved into more pet quality than show quality mice. There are also the people who ask you for pet mice, then a few weeks/months later you see their offspring advertised as 'exhibition' or 'top show quality' mice. That is what really irks me - duping trusting members of the public and giving the hobby/NMC a bad name.


----------



## WillowDragon

But as you said Jack... many (I'd be willing to bet most actually) contracts written for this are not enforcable. I'd also be willing to bet people, as in the breeders, did these contracts without any legal guidance.

So, really these contracts are merely useful to put off not quite so serious owners, and bind you in a matter of trust if nothing else.
As far as I am concerned, once you sell or giveaway an animal, it is no longer yours to control. It is up to the new owner to keep in contact if they want to.

W xx


----------



## Loganberry

MouseBreeder said:


> Unfortunately animals do attract, and I'm phrasing this politely, nutters


hahaha! very true!


----------



## Loganberry

I'll be back. said:


> how many times have senior breeders let strains of winning mice go to persons who have been in the fancy a year or so, make all the right noises etc, only to find a year or so later that they have given up and the mice are down the pet store or worse. loads times . a contract saying that the mice have to be retuned to the original supplier if the fancier gives up the breed would be good. five generations-load of rubbuish ! a strain belongs to the breeder by then !


I see the point in this, but I like the words of a top fancier who told me that as soon as the mice go in your shed, they're yours. You can easily f'em up in a few weeks with the wrong food, poor care, and bad selection for breeding, through inexperience or just a lack of ability. I have given people mice and seen this happen in a few months.

Sure, it's irritating if the stock you gave them was good, and they mess it up or give up completely, but i believe that if you just expect that to happen as default, you can only be pleasantly surprised if it all goes well. Personally, once mice leave my shed, i wouldn't weant them back nine times out of 10, or if i had to have them back, i'd probably just end up culling them.


----------



## Loganberry

MouseBreeder said:


> There are also the people who ask you for pet mice, then a few weeks/months later you see their offspring advertised as 'exhibition' or 'top show quality' mice. That is what really irks me - duping trusting members of the public and giving the hobby/NMC a bad name.


I agree!

Another irk for me is people that use your stud name in adverts for young mice, which may be the origins of the mice that they have been breeding from, but, as in my previous post above, they have already made a mess of the line.

I have been guilty of making a mess of lines of mice that have come into my shed; it's all part of the learning curve! You let things slip because you don't know what you're doing. But I don't like it when i see my stud name quoted in ads for stock from a new breeder.


----------



## Jack Garcia

Unfortunately, that happens stateside, too!

Contracts could feasibly include clauses against it, I suppose.


----------



## nuedaimice

Loganberry said:


> I see the point in this, but I like the words of a top fancier who told me that as soon as the mice go in your shed, they're yours. You can easily f'em up in a few weeks with the wrong food, poor care, and bad selection for breeding, through inexperience or just a lack of ability. I have given people mice and seen this happen in a few months.
> 
> Sure, it's irritating if the stock you gave them was good, and they mess it up or give up completely, but i believe that if you just expect that to happen as default, you can only be pleasantly surprised if it all goes well. Personally, once mice leave my shed, i wouldn't weant them back nine times out of 10, or if i had to have them back, i'd probably just end up culling them.


This is a very interesting point of view. I had not thought about it this way. But I do like that part about as soon as the mice go in your shed, they're yours. I think, that would be my philosophy, except most U.S. breeders don't keep their mice in sheds.. LOL I guess I'd have to say once they go in your spare room/bedroom/closet/living room/basement/etc. LOL Or maybe once they are in your mouse cage they are yours.


----------



## windyhill

They way I see it, once the mouse leaves your mousery, its no longer yours. You no longer have a say in hows its raised, bred,etc. You just have to hope you made the right choice in adopting it out. You can express how you would like it to be bred, raised, but that doesnt mean they will. I screen where my mice go, and look for someone with the same mice beliefs as me and hope for the best. 
I looked into contracts, but found that even with them theres not much you can do. More then likey if you took the case to court it would get laughed out. I cant really see someone enforcing a contract on a mouse (or any animal really)


----------



## Rhasputin

What's the point in having a contract, when they don't hold up legally?
Doesn't it then just irritate people and cause trouble?


----------



## Jack Garcia

Some (though not all) do hold up in court, but in order for them to do so you have to have legal help in writing them and have them signed before a notary public. It's ridiculous how long they have to be, too. The only ones I've heard of going to court are ones for rats. I think that might just be because there are more people who keep rats?


----------



## Rhasputin

Shesh. I see.


----------



## WNTMousery

Well-written contracts do indeed hold up in court if you are willing to pursue it.


----------



## Rhasputin

Okay. So do they -have- to be written with the help of an attorney to be legally stable? Or does it just help a lot?

-puts on her learning cap-


----------



## Jack Garcia

It depends on how well versed you are on your state's or commonwealth's law. It only cost me $150 to get an attorney to read over my own contract and make it applicable in all fifty states. I also know a notary, so that part's easy too. Needless to say, there's no specialty of mouse law, so you just have to make sure the person you're talking with knows what they're doing. My lawyer thinks I'm a little bit crazy, but she's very helpful and I'm glad I have her.


----------



## Cait

I have to say, as an English person I find it both amusing and slightly worrying that you have a lawyer 'on hand' for no particular reason. :lol:


----------



## WillowDragon

My partner is a clerk in a law firm, so I would easily be able to have lawyers 'on hand' for freebie work (I know a few of them and they are lovely) but I have to say... they would probably think i am very insane if i ever asked to look over a mouse contract for me LOL


----------



## Jack Garcia

I know! Some mouse people over here are really crazy (and I do include myself in this)! I knew her before she ever helped me with legal stuff, though, so I can't imagine what it would be like to call up an unfamiliar law office and say "I need help with mouse issues" and get all the common questions ("What do you _do_ with them?, Do they bite?")...


----------



## Rhasputin

MouseBreeder said:


> I have to say, as an English person I find it both amusing and slightly worrying that you have a lawyer 'on hand' for no particular reason. :lol:


We're Americans! It's what we do! Find good excuses to sue people.  
Sue the pants off of someone, and get rich, the American dream. :lol:


----------



## windyhill

Rhasputin said:


> We're Americans! It's what we do! Find good excuses to sue people.
> Sue the pants off of someone, and get rich, the American dream. :lol:


 Aint that the truth! I dont have a lawyer, but I know alot of people that do


----------



## tanzaniterose

This is a very interesting discussion, I've heard of quite a few people attempting to write up contracts of sale for their animals, i.e _give it/them back to the breeder if you're no longer interested or able to provide the proper care, you can't breed this one,_ etcetc, but it's interesting to hear that the few cases that do get taken to courts are generally laughed off. As you've all basically said, once an animal has left your care you effectively have no grounds to stand on to tell the new owners what they can and can't do. It's like if the previous owner of my car suddenly appears at my door and says "You've driven far too many miles and it's all dirty, I'm taking it back!!".

Although I do like contracts in the sense that they put off most of the unwanted types that want a quick profit off any future offspring, animal hoarders or nutters (as Cait eloquently put it  ), they do also have the potential to put off some decent homes. I know that if I had been faced with a long threatening list of 'DON'T DO THIS OR ELSE I'LL GET CHUUU' when getting my latest mousie off Cait, I'd have been somewhat concerned thinking that she was going to appear at my door or window periodically to see if he was being mistreated!

I completely understand where the breeders with these contracts are coming from, but in my opinion, what's wrong with just breeding what you need to continue a line, and only letting out a couple that you won't need to people you can trust?


----------



## SarahY

I think contracts are more about one's reputation within the fancy - breeders all talk to each other and word of a broken contract would get around. The UK rat fancy is mad for contracts, particularly pet only ones. If a contract was broken it probably wouldn't get taken to court, but the owner would be totally ostracised and would not be able to buy rats from most breeders for a very long time.

Sarah xxx


----------



## Jack Garcia

That's how it is in the US, too, up to a point.

One person who adopted mice from a friend of mine ended up being an animal hoarder (who hid her problem well and denied it, like most addicts do) and when that situation came to light, that was when the contract issue became very important.

Unfortunately, there are a not a few dishonest, mis-leading people involved in the mouse fancy. You have to be careful who you deal with and who you give your animals to.

Because they're so cheap to obtain and easy to breed poorly, more people have them than really should. With dogs, they'd rightfully be called backyard breeders or puppy mills. With mice they're called "hobby breeders."

And there you have my most unpopular opinion of the day!


----------



## WNTMousery

SarahY said:


> I think contracts are more about one's reputation within the fancy - breeders all talk to each other and word of a broken contract would get around. The UK rat fancy is mad for contracts, particularly pet only ones. If a contract was broken it probably wouldn't get taken to court, but the owner would be totally ostracised and would not be able to buy rats from most breeders for a very long time.
> 
> Sarah xxx


When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently. :|

The things I wish I had known. lol


----------



## tanzaniterose

From my experience WNT, when you get 'breeders' like that, you've basically got a clique of backyard breeders that either don't care or know no better, but it's ok because they have their fwends to back them up and recommend them to naïve potential owners so that they can shift their unending offspring..

Tbh one of the things I do like about the mouse & rat fancy is that it does have an active & reputable showing and breeding front. I'm primarily in gerbils, and we have absolutely nothing like this to draw upon when looking for recommended breeders, the NGS (national gerbil society) has basically dissolved into the abyss and the AGS (american) is, in a nutshell, an unethical society & an effective clique to look up to, and European societies seem to keep to themselves. Anyone who can throw two gerbils together and breed these days is called a 'breeder' and if you have very little clue on what to look for in a good breeder and setup, you're basically screwed.  You can't even rely on word of mouth, because the only word is through the internet, and someone that may be well-loved on one forum will be disliked on another.

So yes, contracts or not you guys are quite lucky.


----------



## WNTMousery

I think I love you.


----------



## SarahY

> When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently.


I think you missed my meaning  It's the reputable breeders that I was talking about. The UK rat show breeding community as a whole care A LOT about their rats and breeding for health and temperament, and these are the people with whom reputations matter when it comes to buying rats. Most backyard breeders couldn't give a flying poo.

Sarah xxx


----------



## Rhasputin

SarahY said:


> When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you missed my meaning  It's the reputable breeders that I was talking about. The UK rat show breeding community as a whole care A LOT about their rats and breeding for health and temperament, and these are the people with whom reputations matter when it comes to buying rats. Most backyard breeders couldn't give a flying poo.
> 
> Sarah xxx
Click to expand...

What would be your definition of 'backyard breeder'.
Curious because different people will say different things.

As for puppies, a backyard breeder could litterally be someone whose dog just got pregnant in their 'backyard' and they sold the puppies without giving a flying fart about the pedigree or getting somewhere with the breeding. Orrr, a puppy mill, where the animals are confined in small cages (I feel like lab cages are similar to these. . .) and bred over and over and over just for the money.


----------



## Jack Garcia

tanzaniterose said:


> From my experience WNT, when you get 'breeders' like that, you've basically got a clique of backyard breeders that either don't care or know no better, but it's ok because they have their fwends to back them up and recommend them to naïve potential owners so that they can shift their unending offspring..


This is _exactly_ the way it happens in the US. Unfortunately, there are far more unscrupulous, careless breeders out there than there are people who have achievable goals in mind and breed toward standards of some sort with both the animals' well-being _and_ the competition in mind. And to be clear it's not just a distinction between breeding for show and breeding for pets, although it does often encompass that distinction--you _can be_ a pets-only breeder and be perfectly fine in terms of the number of animals you breed, how well you keep them, your adoption policies, etc.

For example, I know one woman (not a member here or anywhere I can think of off the top of my head) who has hundreds of cages on three floors of her house, feeds all her animals only one day a week because of all the time it takes, and has a significant infestation of argente wild mice, who originated from some escaped pet argentes who bred with wild mice years ago and were never controlled. Animal Services has been called to her house at least once, and she has dead cats in her freezer who have been dead for an unknown period of time (she just can't part with them). To make a long story short, there is seriously something wrong there. But only a couple of us have ever been inside her house to see (or smell) this disaster, and she portrays herself as a knowledgeable, trustworthy person to get small animals from, even as she is pushing them off onto people because she has so many sub-par, sickly animals. She refuses to get help or even acknowledge her problem, yet she is _always_ asking people for more mice, and she lashes out at you when you refuse her sick mice admission into a show or refuse to give her your mice. If you so much as mention a contract, her mental condition, or anything else she does not want to think about, you are labeled all sorts of things (as I have been). This would be bad enough if that were the extent of the situation, but she has enablers who encourage her and insist she doesn't have a problem. None of them have been to her house, though.

This is the very kind of situation which inspires people who take breeding to the standards and showing seriously to draw up contracts in the first place, which only makes irrational people like the one described above even more angry and vocal. But there's no point in having high, uniform standards if you don't keep and advocate them as consistently as possible, you know?


----------



## Jack Garcia

Rhasputin said:


> What would be your definition of 'backyard breeder'.
> Curious because different people will say different things.


A backyard breeder has no particular goals other than "to make more," often cannot properly care for all her animals (which may number into the hundreds or more), and often lacks in knowledge related to the breeding and care of said animals, and usually has supporters or enablers who implicitly or explicitly give her reassurance that everything's ok. This is true for any animal, not just mice.

This page is geared toward dogs:

http://www.boxermap.com/reputablebreeder.html

...but the general sentiments apply to most animals.


----------



## Rhasputin

Yeah, that's what I figured. Anyone who is 'only in it for the money' is probably no good.

I met a man, when my friend went to buy chickens from him. Who used to be a 'feeder/lab breeder' and he showed me tiny little homemade lab-style mouse cages, that couldn't have been any larger than maybe the dimensions of a piece of printer paper. He said he kept 5 mice in them at once, and kept a buck in with the five does, to have back to back to back litters with virtually no consideration for the animals, and no goals other than to make money. I didn't want to say anything to him, because he seemed kind of . . . scary, a very religious man, who upon walking onto his property (to do buisness none the less) would give you a little plastic coin with a bible verse on it (something about 'are you going to burn in hell?', and talk about how you needed to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, ALL BEFORE even starting to talk buisness, or introducing himself. :roll:

Rant/complaining over.


----------



## Jack Garcia

Being involved for what little money there is isn't necessarily as much a problem to me as not knowing the history, potential, and proper care of the animals you're breeding.

For example, some large-scale feeder breeders (thousands and thousands of animals sold monthly) do make profit on their animals and it is possible (though difficult) to do it on that scale and still meet all the minimum requirements for quality, healthy food animals animals.

From the list above, these are the most important things to look for when dealing with mice:



> 1. Dedication to producing quality mice is serious avocation. Has so much invested in mice that he struggles to break even, not make a profit. Will sell only to approved buyers.
> 
> 2. Can explain how planned breedings are used to emphasize or minimize specific qualities through linebreeding, outcrossing, or inbreeding.
> 
> 3. Does not breed does younger than age 2-3 months. Can afford and produce veterinary bills of health if needed.
> 
> 4. Written contractual commitment to replace a mouse with genetic faults or to help owner deal with problem, also contractual agreement in place about the care of mice and their descendants (optional).
> 
> 5. Loves the breed/variety and can talk at length about its background, uses, and ideal type.
> 
> 6. Has an investment in mouse equipment and the environment is sanitary and loving. Will allow you into their home or mouse shed to inspect the area at request.
> 
> 7. Belongs to national, regional, and/or local mouse clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred mice. Shows their mice as an objective test of how the stock measures up. Some clubs are more reputable than others, here.
> 
> 8. Shows litter and dam in a sanitary environment. Helps buyer evaluate and choose a mouse. Explains criteria for "show prospects" versus "pet picks," without negative judgment for those people who simply want pets.
> 
> 9. Prices will be at the high end of local range, or private treaties. At most clubs, there is a minimum selling price on mice at all shows (at the ECMA it is USD $5), though many reputable breeders in the US do not charge at all unless at shows. Price will never reflect all that is invested in the mice, though. Regardless as to what is charged, a reputable breeder rarely or never profits from the sale of mice. Has an established waiting list for the pups.
> 
> 10. After purchase, will help you with any problems. Will take back a mouse you cannot keep rather than see it disposed of inappropriately. Sells pets with contractual agreement(s) (optional) and with club affiliation. But even here, you must be careful. There have been a few clubs in the last few years which have very low or hazily-defined standards and let things like health hazards and poorly-bred animals slip through the cracks too easily.


(In reproducing and modifying this list, I'm citing fair use.)


----------



## WNTMousery

SarahY said:


> When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you missed my meaning  It's the reputable breeders that I was talking about. The UK rat show breeding community as a whole care A LOT about their rats and breeding for health and temperament, and these are the people with whom reputations matter when it comes to buying rats. Most backyard breeders couldn't give a flying poo.
> 
> Sarah xxx
Click to expand...

No, I understood what you meant.

I was just saying the disreputable breeders have formed their own group after the reputable ones have shunned them and are trying to revolt, so to speak. lol These backyard breeders are the worse kind because the fly under the flag of responsibility and ethics when they are basically the farthest from. I hope that makes sense.

The issue of being shunned by the reputable breeders makes no matter to them because they can trade and share among themselves. Ya know?


----------



## WolfWhisper

WNTMousery said:


> No, I understood what you meant.
> 
> I was just saying the disreputable breeders have formed their own group after the reputable ones have shunned them and are trying to revolt, so to speak. lol These backyard breeders are the worse kind because the fly under the flag of responsibility and ethics when they are basically the farthest from. I hope that makes sense.
> 
> The issue of being shunned by the reputable breeders makes no matter to them because they can trade and share among themselves. Ya know?


Some of the ones you are referring to *shunned* the *'reputable'* (your words, not everyone agrees on it though) breeders because of the subject of this thread, contracts. Most, if not all of the ones you refer to don't agree with you. Disreputable does not mean, does differently/has different beliefs then I do. Just because someone chooses to work with their stock to make it showable (and whether or not they choose to breed every variety/color they have for the show table) and does not go to one breeder purchase/trade/are given 'showable' mice, breeds them together and has instant 'show quality' does not make them disreputable. The division is because of the very high and mighty attitude some people have been showing for some time.  The people you refer to are tired of being referred to as unethical because they enjoy non-standardized color/coat combinations or more than 2-3 varieties. I don't see the English and other country's breeders putting down anyone for their choices in varieties/colors/coats/etc here but it's rampant in the US with the 'reputable' breeders.


----------



## Jack Garcia

Please keep direct, personal attacks in PMs, or you're going to get yet another thread locked.


----------



## WNTMousery

WolfWhisper said:


> WNTMousery said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I understood what you meant.
> 
> I was just saying the disreputable breeders have formed their own group after the reputable ones have shunned them and are trying to revolt, so to speak. lol These backyard breeders are the worse kind because the fly under the flag of responsibility and ethics when they are basically the farthest from. I hope that makes sense.
> 
> The issue of being shunned by the reputable breeders makes no matter to them because they can trade and share among themselves. Ya know?
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the ones you are referring to *shunned* the *'reputable'* (your words, not everyone agrees on it though) breeders because of the subject of this thread, contracts. Most, if not all of the ones you refer to don't agree with you. Disreputable does not mean, does differently/has different beliefs then I do. Just because someone chooses to work with their stock to make it showable (and whether or not they choose to breed every variety/color they have for the show table) and does not go to one breeder purchase/trade/are given 'showable' mice, breeds them together and has instant 'show quality' does not make them disreputable. The division is because of the very high and mighty attitude some people have been showing for some time.  The people you refer to are tired of being referred to as unethical because they enjoy non-standardized color/coat combinations or more than 2-3 varieties. I don't see the English and other country's breeders putting down anyone for their choices in varieties/colors/coats/etc here but it's rampant in the US with the 'reputable' breeders.
Click to expand...

It is apparent you are misinformed. I've never said anyone was unethical for their choice to breed non-standardized types of mice. I, myself, breed manx (tailless), hairless, fuzzy hairless and rex, in addition to my satin and standard coats. I'd love for you to prove who said something about somebody being unethical because of breeding a certain color in a certain coat type. I know you can't. 

People with problems usually deny they have problems. No surprise there.

To get back on topic after ANOTHER blatant disregard for forum rules against personal attacks: I use contracts and I'm not ashamed of it. Unfortunately I didn't use them seriously enough in the past with people I thought were my friends, who lied, used and abused my friendship and trust. Sucks for me and the mice who are now forced to live in poor conditions with incompetent breeders.

As has been said in this thread, most serious exhibition breeders have faced similar problems. It happens all too often. We are trying to talk about it openly and honestly without fear of more personal attacks and it seems the UK breeders are not as vocal about the subject (although they have indeed spoken up about it!) because they are lucky enough to not have as many nutters as we do in the US.


----------



## WolfWhisper

There was no personal attack. :roll:

I said the people you are referring to disagree with your opinion of things.


----------



## WNTMousery

No, not directly. However, the people on this forum are not as dumb as you'd like them to be and can read your implications as easy as you make them. 

Please send me a private message if you have anything else to say to me, as this is not the venue for such things. Thanks for your cooperation.


----------



## WolfWhisper

I do not need to send any private messages.

This thread is about contracts and the 'reputable' breeders have been shunned over that very subject.

Disreputable and reputable are an opinion.



WNTMousery said:


> When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently. :|


And you were referring to a specific situation here, the same group you refer to when you speak of disreputable.



> However, the people on this forum are not as dumb as you'd like them to be and can read your implications as easy as you make them.


Yep, they sure aren't.


----------



## WNTMousery

Curious, you've only been responding to induce drama on the boards. When is the last time you've offered anything to any of the other threads?

Actually, it doesn't matter. I'll be the bigger person and walk away. Have a great weekend, Tracey! :gwavec


----------



## WolfWhisper

I'm not responding to induce drama. Why is it when anyone posts contradicting what you say or has another opinion then you they're making a personal attack and causing drama?

:roll:


----------



## DomLangowski

Im locking this thread, and will comment on this later.


----------

