# Musings from Blackthorn Stud



## SarahY

Blackthorn Stud is getting a BIG overhaul this weekend. I'm cutting everything right back and keeping only the very best, maybe eight does and two bucks per variety. The Dutch are doing wonderfully but the silver foxes are weak and skinny and, if they actually kindle litters, they consistantly eat their kittens despite being given the best food for their needs. Any silver fox kittens that do make it to weaning are slim and look slightly malnourished. The silver foxes are all going this weekend, regrettably. I have only a handful left now and they aren't top breeding stock by any stretch of the imagination. The marten sables are well but could be better.

I've always had a lot of problems getting the silver foxes to thrive, I think I got scared and have been growing on too many of everything "just in case" and they aren't thriving. (Well, the Dutch are, but I reckon they'd still thrive in nuclear fallout!) I haven't been culling litters as rigorously just in an effort to get the numbers of healthy mice up, but it hasn't worked. I just have more weak mice. Somewhere I forgot that it's all about quality over quantity, which has been very remiss of me. Because I've been breeding to raise numbers, I have had does sharing cages to kindle. This has just not worked for me. I used to have does kindling alone in their own cages and had much better results, so I've gone back to that and I am already seeing an improvement.

I was thinking back to when I had only dove selfs, I rarely had any problems with their health and condition. I had a stud full of healthy, strapping mice all the time. It is in part because the mice I have now are different lines, but I've been thinking about what I did differently. I ALWAYS culled litters to four but recently I've been letting litters of six or seven slip by. I never tolerated weak mice, and I have been recently because I've been having problems with numbers. If I didn't tolerate the weak mice, I'd have run out of silver foxes ages ago! Another difference is the big running on cages I now have on the top of my mouse bench. I didn't have them originally and I kept does in groups of five or six in my medium sized lab cages. I'm going to go back to that. The space is doing them no good. Although it's more convenient for me to keep them in the big cages, in smaller cages they are much more relaxed and they get bigger and sleeker. I suppose because they put more energy into growing rather than running around.

I don't really know why I'm writing all this stuff, I doubt it's interesting to anyone but me. But I suppose it can sometimes help to read others' tribulations, mistakes and learning curves!


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## Velvet_Meece

Its very good to share such info, sometimes even if your not sharing advice, just by mentioning it you may snap someone out of the same routine!

I need to have a big think myself this summer about what i'm focusing on and how i go about husbandry etc. seeing posts like this give me the motivation to do it


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## SarahC

I am doing the same Sarah,mainly because I haven't the time at present to maintain large amounts of mice in tip top condition so go they must.I've struggled with a few new varieties,especially blue brindles and silver fawns which have truly been cursed.However I have 2 litters of healthy silver fawns now so all the others are going and three blue brindles which as you know I really struggled to keep alive but they have finally made it and are fit young adult does now so any born weak in future can go .It's good to share the fact that we all have less than perfect mice at times.


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## kellyt

It is very intetesting to read especially as someone new to the fancy. Can I ask just a couple of questions do you find mice that litter together rather than individually are more likely to eat their babies? After how many days with a buck do you seperate them.

I've had two litters so far with no survivors one took me by surprise and was with another doe and I wonder if that was part of the problem.


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## SarahC

I hold the opinion that a single doe with her litter is best.Other does are quite likely to kill the young and a mother needs no help raising her litter so I can see no point to the nanny scenario apart from space saving which is sometimes unavoidable.I remove the buck when the does are showing although only to prevent follow on litters,I find bucks generally safe with young.


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## Velvet_Meece

I think its more of a case of trying different things and seeing what works best for you Kelly. Here, i find my doe's litter better in pairs than singly or in groups.
What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another 

I think my variegated are cursed, they were such healthy adults, i have 4 doe's, mated them all up first time but to self buck as vari buck was infertile, got one litter. 2 vari babies, both male, 1 mysteriously died, other is ok but rubbish markings.

I went and got 2 new vari males, one got ill the other i put with my doe's, second time just 1 litter again from 4 doe's. All black bar one, good markings, tiny and looking very weak, don't think it will make it to weaning. 
I really don't want to give up vari's, but they're driving me potty! and now all my adult vari's are looking underweight and have lost their shine.


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## Velvet_Meece

SarahC said:


> I hold the opinion that a single doe with her litter is best.Other does are quite likely to kill the young and a mother needs no help raising her litter so I can see no point to the nanny scenario apart from space saving which is sometimes unavoidable.I remove the buck when the does are showing although only to prevent follow on litters,I find bucks generally safe with young.


When i was a sole feeder breeder i always left males in and found they make amazing birthing partners. Just a shame they breed so quickly again or i'd still be leaving them in.


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## Serena

It is really interesting, to read different experiences, especially when you are a beginner like me.
thanks for sharing your thoughts


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## SarahC

Velvet_Meece said:


> I went and got 2 new vari males, one got ill the other i put with my doe's, second time just 1 litter again from 4 doe's. All black bar one, good markings, tiny and looking very weak, don't think it will make it to weaning.


That's how my silver fawns have been and yet the fawns and silvered mice I used have been in my shed for around a decade and are strong and healthy.Crossed together they produced puny individuals.Kept on though and they've come good but I'm about 4th generation in.The blue brindles have had a really hard time surviving.That may be due to the does being first time mothers.I've repeated the mating and the new ones are born,shan't know until they open their eyes.At the minute they are fat.


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## Autumn2005

It is good for you to return to the basics that you know work for you. It takes a lot of courage to be able to say, "Stop, I've had enough/too much, no more." When I first started breeding mice, I collected just about every variety under the sun... Problem is of course space. Now I have to pick and choose which varieties mean the most to me, and go from there. Every day is a learning experience.


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## SarahY

See, that's what I love most about this community of people - you can openly admit you've made mistakes and no-one slams you for it, instead they all say "how interesting" or "anyone could have made that mistake" 



> I need to have a big think myself this summer about what i'm focusing on and how i go about husbandry etc. seeing posts like this give me the motivation to do it


Yeah! It is very refreshing to have a good overhaul every now and then.



> Can I ask just a couple of questions do you find mice that litter together rather than individually are more likely to eat their babies? After how many days with a buck do you seperate them.


Having done it both ways, I find that it's better to litter does alone for that reason and others, but many people have success raising multiple litters together. As Velvet_Meece said, it's about finding what works for your mice and yourself.



> When i was a sole feeder breeder i always left males in and found they make amazing birthing partners. Just a shame they breed so quickly again or i'd still be leaving them in.


I have actually found that the best litters are those that had their sire in with them. It is a shame they breed again instantly because constant back-to-back litters don't fit my needs


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## Autumn2005

Bucks make the best nannies, because they're genetically programmed to help pass on their own genetics, which they think is the case whenever does in the same cage with them give birth. Thankfully they can't count the days... :lol: I wish there was a way to take the buck out JUST for the fertile period right after birth, and then put him in again, to prevent back to back breedings... Maybe a cage divider, with enough ventilation to allow him to see/smell the doe still? Little mousey condoms? Come on, we're a creative group, we can think of something! :lol:


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## moustress

Sarah, I'm a big fan of doing what works for me, so I completely understand what you are doing. I had to make similar decisions when it cam to deciding what to do with the approx. 200 assorted (very!) meeces I produced trying to restore my fawn line. Most of the bucks are history, and I'm starting to look at the does. There are things I want to do that I need space for, and while I generally haven't had any problems with health, I know I'd be able to give more attention to the ones I am really interested in if I cut back.

So I've been doing it in baby steps, slowly, picking a few adults to go every time a new litter is born. It usually ends up being bucks, though. One does what can with what one has...and what one must to suit ourselves and meet our goals. different strains of meeces have different problems, and it isn't the same from mousery to mousery. The environment and the temperament of meeces can vary so widely, and so can vitality and vigor, so one can never make global statements that apply to every mousery. We each need to find our own metier and act accordingly.

It's good to read about your thought processes that went into these decisions.


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## SarahY

> Little mousey condoms? Come on, we're a creative group, we can think of something


Condoms may be too difficult... but some kind of male chastity belt might work!

Thanks moustress


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## Autumn2005

Well, I was thinking, they have those plastic sheaths that go over cat claws.... Or maybe a wee itsy bitsy diaper?


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## SarahY

T'is done, the stud is completely revamped. I've spent a lot of time over the last week sorting it all out. I now have three Dutch studs (argente, dove and agouti) and fifteen Dutch does (of various colours), three marten sable studs, four marten sable does and four silver fox does (for marten sable breeding only), and a few litters. So it all feels rather bare, but good. I reduced my stock by over half and all of those I have left are fit, healthy and in good condition. I feel so much better about my mice!

These are my new cages in the picture below, which I bought from Tinkers Mousery (thank you!)! They are a little bit smaller than my previous cages so seven fit perfectly on each shelf. There are still another seven cages to come which I am picking up from Swindon, all being well! 










The top shelf houses the stud bucks, the middle and bottom shelves house the running on does, and the small cages on the top are for litters. The freezer is being moved and defrosted in the next couple of weeks (need to wait for black bin day first) and another three litter cages will fit on top.


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## MoonfallTheFox

That is a great set up!

I find the thought process interesting also, even though I am not a breeder. It brought to mind my motley crew of does, who I know at least two of them would have been culled long ago even at a bad breeder.


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## Shadowrunner

I'm jelous. :3
That's a wonderfully clean and pretty set up.


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## m137b

I've had to do massive house cleaning before with the mice, this past summer actually, and it really is a relief when it's all said and done.

Beautiful set up, I wish I was that organized, lol.


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## The Village Mousery

SarahY said:


> Little mousey condoms? Come on, we're a creative group, we can think of something
> 
> 
> 
> Condoms may be too difficult... but some kind of male chastity belt might work!
> 
> Thanks moustress
Click to expand...

Duck tape lol


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## SarahY

Well, it's only two weeks on since I last posted to say the overhaul was complete and already I'm seeing a big improvement in my mice. My young does are so much calmer and more relaxed in their groups of five in the smaller cages, their condition is very much improved and they seem very happy. And if they're happy, I'm happy 

I've had five litters kindled in the last two weeks (all Dutch); I've culled them all to four does or three does and a buck and they are the biggest, fattest kitts I've seen for a very long time. No showable Dutch in them, but plenty of good breeding stock with good, high saddles and long, thick tails.

The marten sables are worrying me though, after culling some weak ones last week I have only a handful left. Fingers crossed that the ones I have left will breed - and that the litters actually have more than one marten sable in them! I haven't had more than one marten sable in a litter for some time now, I need some more! I've had three fox does from another fancier's stock in with my best marten sable stud, they should all kindle within the week. I do have a marten sable doe which is heavily in kindle, but the last litter was either reabsorbed or eaten very early on, so I don't know how she'll do this time round.

I have also brought in a trio of silvers to start a PE silver self line here. Most of you probably know that I started out with dove/silver self. I have obstensibly taken a self variety on just so that I can consistantly produce some showable mice. Dutch and marten sables produce showable mice very sporadically and I'm currently finding that I'm travelling 300+ miles to show only two or three mice! The reality is that I loved my pink eyed greys very much and I have really missed them. I'm really happy to have them back. Here's one of my silver mice:


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## Kingnoel

Sorry to hear of your Marten problems. The silver is lovely (long drawn out drooool)


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## kellyt

Beautiful silvers! I'm very tempted to have a self variety myself.


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## Gill

It's very reassuring to a relative novice like myself to find that even experienced breeders keep less good mice "just in case". I have finally managed to talk myself out of this practice, and have been (slowly) getting rid of the extras.
Thank you, Sarah, for sharing this with us.


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## SarahY

You're welcome Gill  I am surprised and grateful that people have got something out of this.

My marten sable doe kindled a couple of hours ago and she is sat on them and feeding them, so hopefully she'll get her act together this time and raise them! It looks as if she has had about seven but obviously I don't want to disturb this doe too much. In a couple of days I will be able to reduce the litter by taking out the foxes as they darken much quicker than the sables do. Keep your fingers crossed for me that there's more than one marten sable!


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## SarahY

> My marten sable doe kindled a couple of hours ago and she is sat on them and feeding them, so hopefully she'll get her act together this time and raise them!


Gah, got back from work yesterday to find she had eaten them  :evil:


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## Shadowrunner

Oh that's awful. Why do you think she did it? D:


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## SarahY

I don't know, everything seemed fine :roll: 

I had bred two fox does to a marten sable buck, and they kindled Friday morning. I looked in the first box today and saw a litter of seven; six foxes and one marten sable buck. As expected, but disappointing all the same.

But then, good news! The other silver fox doe had a small litter and by a _massive_ stroke of luck, four out of five are marten sables!! They're looking good, as is their dam. Here they are:










One of them has a very dark stripe down the back and could be a good example of a marten sable. Fingers crossed they have no problems growing up!


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## Kingnoel

Looking good, Sarah. Glad someone came thru with some Marten Sables!


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## Laigaie

Nice clear dark stripe there! Grats on getting all the luck at once!


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## SarahY

Thanks guys! I'm very relieved, the martens were getting critical. I am trying hard not to get too excited about it as they've got a long way to go before they breed litters of their own.

But I _am_ very excited :lol:


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## moustress

Sometimes, for no apparent reason, something goes right! Congrats!


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## SarahY

Thanks moustress 

They're not as chunky as I'd ideally like, but doing well nonetheless:


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## PPVallhunds

oooo pritty! :love


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## Loganberry

They look lovely!


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## moustress

They're chubby enough that you can see neither knees nor elbows.


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## MissStitches

I think they look very healthy. :lol: I'm glad your marten sable line just got a little umph from these kits. Fingers crossed that they grow up strong!


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## SarahY

These marten sables have grown up really well. They're definitely the best I've produced (thought still a very long way from perfect). The bucks now have litters of their own 

The few silver foxes I had kept for breeding marten sables have blossomed into beautiful healthy adults. I'm shocked but so pleased; it looks like I haven't lost them after all. My first and only best in show so far was a young silver fox buck so they have a special place in my heart. For the first time since January I'm pairing up silver foxes 

The silver selfs I got in haven't produced a single litter unfortunately. I'll keep them living together and see if anything happens but I won't be surprised if they never produce anything.

And the Dutch are as fit and prolific as always! I am starting to get the markings back after the last type outcross. I have a lot of beautiful breeding stock but no winners yet. Soon... 

After a rough few months, everything is well at Blackthorn Stud! :gwavebw


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## MojoMouse

It was SO heartening to read through this thread! Here was I thinking that you UK breeders were some kind of mouse gods, presiding over Supreme Supermice, with the main decisions being how to select the Very Best Mousie Supermodels, (you know, the kind that don't get out of bed in the morning for anything less than 10,000 tasty treats) from mice that are just really, really good, but not quite excellent. You certainly have the wonderful mice but it's kind of good to know that you have issues and less successful lines as well. 

Mind you, looking at your mousery set up and reading your description of how the living quarters are arranged is still pretty damn depressing. The level or organisation, and the NEATNESS of it all is a bit scary!  That's a mousery that you should be proud of!

I'm so glad your marten sables pulled their chubby little socks up and got themselves healthy and nice. I just love that variety - they're such a subtle, delicate mixture of colour and shading. The pic you posted of a recent marten sable in another thread was stunning.

I'm adopting some of your practical layout arrangements for my mousery, but mine is tiny by comparison. And my containers aren't nearly as matching and neat as yours are. Oh well, at least I've got something to aim for. 

(BTW I'm glad your poster survived the reorganisation!)


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## SarahY

Your post made me laugh so much, MojoMouse! :lol:


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## LUX

SarahY - those marten sables are absolutly beautiful :love1 
What are the genetics?
I've been checking out your website - I think I just lost my heart to the black foxes... OMG!
How I wish it would be easier to go to England from Denmark 

I've learned alot about myself reading this thread.
I'm trying to improve the fuzzies in Denmark and have a tendency to keep too many.
I even keep the ones I know I'm never gonna put into breeding because they just aren't good enough.
So from now on - after reading your posts - I'm gonna pull myself together and only keep the ones I know are good.
Many clean out a little.
Thank you so much for sharing Sarah :mrgreen:


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## SarahY

Good for you LUX. It's hard but your stud will be better for it 

Marten sables are Ay/at cch/cch.


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## laoshu

I do not post much on here but I do love to read the thred's and this one is a lovely little read on the inside of a good mousery.


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## SarahY

SarahY said:


> One of them has a very dark stripe down the back and could be a good example of a marten sable. Fingers crossed they have no problems growing up!


The doe with the dark stripe has grown up into the best marten sable I've produced so far:



















Her belly is actually white, and she has a lovely dark top. She has her faults; pale face and dainty, fine bone, but I'm quite excited about her.

Also, I wanted to share pictures of this argente Dutch buck just because he's awesome. One month old at the time this picture was taken, and so typey and big! I do think argente Dutch are the prettiest variety ever :love1


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## sys15

beautiful. personally i think the pale face is more attractive than how i picture it with a dark face. the pattern reminds me a lot of some of the paler subspecies of beach mice, though wholly different genetically.


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## SarahY

Thank you  I think the pale face looks really untidy :lol:


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## besty74

that is a gorgeous argente dutch buck, so chunky.


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## MojoMouse

Absolutely gorgeous mouse, Sarah! :love I love her adorable face, even if the standard rwuires it to be darker.

I'm curious - with the genetics you mentioned, how do you get a such a smooth graduated shading if it is based on the tan gene? I would have expected a defined demarcation line like in normal tans. Does umbrous come into it at all?


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## moustress

MojoMouse said:


> Absolutely gorgeous mouse, Sarah! :love I love her adorable face, even if the standard rwuires it to be darker.
> 
> Is it the marten sable on which the face is supposed to be darker?
> 
> Sarah: You know I'm partial to pink-eyed dilutes; I'm loving your argente dutch.


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## MojoMouse

moustress said:


> Is it the marten sable on which the face is supposed to be darker?


I think it was mentioned in Finnmouse that the colour should extend further down the face. I don't know what the NMC standard is though. (I suppose it could look it up!) 

Personally, I like the paler face. It's prettier, and not one bit untidy!


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## SarahY

Yes, marten sables are supposed to have dark brown faces for showing. I don't know the reason why the tan gene doesn't express itself as a sharp line of demarcation as on non red varieties, but dominant red (Ay) and tan (at) when combined create the shading, so Ay/at is a mouse which is dark brown on top shading down to a red belly, and Ay/at cch/cch is mouse which is brown on top fading down to a white belly.

Thank you all for your kind comments


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