# Where Will Show Mice Go Next?



## SarahY

I was just musing after reading a thread on here. I'm wondering... can the type and shape of a show mouse really be improved now? A pale self show mouse is, to me anyway, the most beautiful of all rodents. Everything seems right. The big ears, thick tail, long body, sleek flat coat, broad faces and large size are all I could wish for in breeding perfection. So what happens for the show mouse now? What improvements could we make as the latest generation of fanciers?

Larger ears would look stupid. Thicker tails would look stupid. An even larger mouse altogether? Might not look stupid, maybe even desirable, but is that even possible? Are we close to reaching physical perfection with the pale self show mouse?

An obvious answer and goal would be for all mouse varieties to attain the size and type of the pale self. Imagine Dutch markings on the body of a PEW. Or self black with that kind of type and size. But is_ this _even possible? Surely the fanciers who came before us would have achieved it with them as they have done with the pale selfs.

So... what do you see in the future of the exhibition fancy mouse?

Sarah xxx


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## Seawatch Stud

The general standard of excellence is very high especially as regards pale selfs. There is always room for improvement though. Blacks can never achieve the size and type of the pale selfs, but the pale selfs will never achieve the almost perfect, even and deep colour of a black. Slight faults occur on every mouse, creases in ears, slight lines or thin unders etc. If you had a Dutch the same size and shape as a Pew, the Dutch pattern simply would not fit the mouse no matter what you did as the body shape would be wrong. You need the mouse to be "cobby" so the markings fit. I think the future is about small incremental improvements and concetrating on consistancy of colour etc. Remember, the vast majority of mice bred even today are not winners, and are often well off the standard of winners. We are always fighting a losing battle against nature, which wants all mice to the skanky little runty agoutis they all came from. Just keeping the standard where it is will be quite an achievement.


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## Wight Isle Stud

But then again someone comes along and raises the bar.


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## Jack Garcia

Phil is right that there is always room for improvement. While in theory the best pale self is an excellent animal, you always get the ones who are lacking a little bit in ears, or a little bit in tail, or a little bit in bone, or what have you. And the standard is called the standard because it is so difficult to achieve.

Few, if any BIS mice match the standard perfectly. All that BIS means is that all the other mice didn't match the standard quite as well as the one who got BIS.

I would not be surprised if show mice (and I mean good show mice) split into definite breeds. Whereas pet breeders breed all sorts of incompatible varieties together and cause all sorts of hidden genes to be present, some show breeders have been breeding the same varieties only to the same variety for decades and the beginnings of a breed are there. The line where a "variety" ends and a new "breed" begins can be fuzzy, though. I think our best contender for breed status presently is the Dutch.


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## Matt Haslam

My prediction is that show mice will be bred to grow horns and dangly bells from their private parts!

oh i must stop watching ideal.


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## SarahY

So you're all basically saying that in another hundred years fancy mice will be where they are now? With exhibitors still striving to achieve the same standard we have these days? I would hope we'd get further than that...

Jack and Phil, I'm not talking about the ones lacking in bone, ears, tail, even colour etc, it's been like that all along. There will always be only few truly excellent mice, but it's always been that way. The siblings of all of the champions ever bred may only be fairly good mice. I'm talking about the _winners themselves_.

What will win the Harrogate show in another hundred years time? Will it look like the mice we have now? Or maybe in each litter *every* mouse will be of a winning standard? Then what would make the champions so much better? LOL, that would the end of the mouse fancy, wouldn't it?

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

Who knows? They could have wings and purple horns in 100 years time, for all we know. Predicting the future is hard work.


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## SarahY

> Predicting the future is hard work.


Oh Jack, what a boring answer! :roll:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## Seawatch Stud

Well Im defo gonna be working on the dangly bells from the private parts as its the best idea put forward so far. you may be right though Sarah(Y) as if you look at the winners from 100 years ago they are shocking rubbish compared to now. In Walter Maxeys book is a pic of "champion invincible" who was a quadrouple champion. That mouse would have been culled in the nest if born in your first round of Dutch babies. You put forward the reasons why improvement is difficult yourself, if the mouse looks "ridiculous" with bigger ears etc it cant be said to have been "improved" can it?.


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## SarahY

Well, I think with some varieties we're pretty much at their peak. Blacks aren't going to get much blacker, PEWs aren't going to get much larger. But there is plenty of room for improvement. I think some tans could be as typey as their self counterparts, most of the selfs could be more even. I think a lot of the AOVs could be more typey as well, like agouti. But maybe I just haven't seen the best examples of these varieties.

Maybe some kind of French Lop look is the way forward with the pale selfs :lol: :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon

:shock:  Lop eared mice!! hehehe Love it.

Attaining perfection is no fun, striving for it is.


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## Jack Garcia

In all seriousness, a major body change like lop ears would be a good break-away point for establishing a true breed. I could feasibly see lop eared (show mice with particularly high-set ears might be a good starting point here), Dutch, and manx as proto-types of new breeds based on body type.

The same way that some breeds of dogs may only come in certain colors, the same could be true for mouse breeds. After all, nobody would want to breed champagne Dutch (for obvious reasons).

Personally, I'd like to see fewer varieties of mice in existence overall, so that people were forced to pick one and stick with it. I'd much rather have fewer people doing something well than have masses of people doing something half-heartedly.


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## SarahY

> Attaining perfection is no fun, striving for it is.


So true.

I'm actually quite taken with the idea of lop eared mice :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## SarahY

> Personally, I'd like to see fewer varieties of mice in existence overall, so that people were forced to pick one and stick with it. I'd much rather have fewer people doing something well than have masses of people doing something half-heartedly.


While the perfectionist and purist in me agrees with you, no-one should be forced to take their hobby in any direction. Life is miserable a lot of the time, hobbies exist solely for enjoyment 

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

And competition.


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## Rhasputin

Well while you guys are working on jingle balls. . . :roll:

I think the next thing to come to mice is size. People are so impressed by size right now, I think everyone wants bigger, larger, flashier mice. We already have large mice, but I think they'll get larger if it can be pushed further.

After that? No idea!


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## SarahC

this would be a good topic for the NMC news Sarah,if you have time.Not sure when this months cut off is but I'm going to do a quick piece and email it over today.


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## Megzilla

I think somewhere along the line someone will want to change the look of a mouse and drastically change it- just like they do with dogs. For example, make the face long and pointy, make the body flat and skinny, create new standards for the coat colours. I doubt the main standard of show mice will be lost, be you always have someone with other ideas! :roll: like what you said about the lop ears, I really do believe someone will try and breed mice like that. Or mice with a purposely bred kinked tail which would otherwise be seen as a fault.

I don't think these will be part of the standard, but again, just look at dogs and rabbits and cats...


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## Roland

Despite the need to improve the type of many colour varieties, there is much room to improve the typiest show mice: Many lines do not reach a lifetime of 2 years as pets, some develope cancer early in life, some get fat and have a low fertility, some are less resistent against infectious diseases than others, some are shyer than others. 
What you see is not all you want to get.
This does never happen in your stud? Ok, it happens in other studs...

(not in mine, of course  )


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## SarahC

It's unlikely that extremes in body shape will be accepted in the mouse fancy megzilla,as a group the club is generally anti such things and that includes hairless.


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## Matt Haslam

SarahC said:


> It's unlikely that extremes in body shape will be accepted in the mouse fancy megzilla,as a group the club is generally anti such things and that includes hairless.


the club's philosophy is derived from its members, in a 100 years time non of us lot will be members. we might be able to say that now or in the very near future there will not be extremes in body shape etc., but NMC members to come may have different ideas.


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## SarahC

Unlikely.All fancies but most notably the dog world are moving away from physical extremes that impact on health.It's not just a mouse club thing.It's very much a current modern philosophy


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## Jack Garcia

In the US, hairless and manx are both sought after. They're not shown much because they're difficult varieties to breed correctly.

Whether or not a show mouse lives to 2 years doesn't matter much from a show standpoint. They're not pets--they're livestock. As long as they live long enough to win at show and reproduce, that's all that matters. The large size of show mice is a price you pay for shorter lifespans, just like in dogs: the largest breeds live about half as long as the smallest breeds.


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## SarahC

dogs are very much under the spotlight over here.Not just dogs though,hairless g.pigs are banned from the show bench,some breeds of dairy cow that have been turned into living skeletons in the interests of mass milk production are being scrutinised and so on.Whether you think it's the way it should be done doesn't matter,that's the way it's swinging over here and it's not likely that new freaks of nature are going to be welcomed.I did note that many reptile morphs are developing problems but they don't seem to be under the public eye just yet.


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## SarahC

My dogs are naturally docked but now the standard says that they must have some tail vertebrae,albeit short and straight.Obviously they aren't going to grow overnight,it will take many generations of selection.Check out how the rat people feel
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/o ... rat-2.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/o ... anted.html


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## Seawatch Stud

I don't buy all these flights of fancy either. The truth is although breeders do try to improve varieties, most effort goes into breeding to win at shows. Winning at shows now is what counts for me and most other fanciers. If improvement of a variety happens as a result of selection for showing all well and good, but thats not really the driving force, winning is. Mouse fanciers and as a result, the Mouse clubs are very conservative and resistant to change. I would be more surprised to see a hairless mouse at a show if I could travel forward 100 years in time, than I would be to see a hologram of a mouse beamed to the show.


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## Matt Haslam

personally i don't like hairless. I would like to see a 'dumbo eared' mouse, like in rats. Not sure it improves a mouse in anyway, but i like it in rats so would be interested to see it in mice.


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## SarahC

It's even more unlikely that these animals will be accepted in a modern club than a club of yesteryear.Manx = spinal deformities = infertility=incontinence=disability.The mouse club hasn't banned any varieties but not much fancier appeal there to make them an accepted variety.If they were already acceped someone might fight for the right to keep them but develop them knowing the truth is unlikely.


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## SarahC

I think dumbo mice would be nice and could be accepted.I like hairless mice but it can't be denied they have health issues as do skinny pigs and hairless rats.


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## Rhasputin

We have half dumbo mice. . . lol.
Gremlins. 
But who knows if we'll ever see a true dumbo mouse. . . Probably.

I mean, not to long ago, someone on this forum had mice who genetically lost their front legs after weaning. So I guess just about anything is possible.


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## SarahC

anything is possible but it has to hold appeal for someone to select for it.Appeal to be better to eat,better to show,better to experiment on.As we are talking about exhibition mice,I think it's safe to say legless ones won't catch on :lol:


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## Rhasputin

Yes, legless won't be on the show tables. :lol:

Nor earless I would assume.


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## geordiesmice

What about tailess mice lol


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## Rhasputin

Well we've got all of these varieties.

It's a matter of whether they are show-able or not.
Is manx an accepted variety in any clubs?


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## Matt Haslam

SarahC said:


> I think dumbo mice would be nice and could be accepted.I like hairless mice but it can't be denied they have health issues as do skinny pigs and hairless rats.


right Sarah, how do we go about it?


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## geordiesmice

This is what i found on the net about The Manx Mouse it is interesting.
Manx, also known as "tailless", is a gene in mice which causes a shortened tail. When bred towards shorter and shorter tails, a mouse with absolutely no tail can be created.

Manx in mice (at least in my own experience) is a dominant gene with additional modifier(s) which control exactly how long the tail should be. You need the main manx gene to see any tail shortening. It works line an on-off switch; without the main gene the tail is always full length.

Manx is both one of the easiest things to breed while also one of the hardest. Because manx is dominant, one can get immediately see results in the very first generation, even when one of the parent is not a manx. In just two or three generations of careful breeding you can go from slightly kinked tails to totally tailless, even if you had to breed to a non-manx to begin your lines.

Manx is hard to work with and in some ways dangerous. The gene doesn't always just affect the tail. In extreme cases it shortens the spine, affects how the hips connect to the spine, and changes spinal curvature. This means the babies may be born unable to use their back feel well or in some cases totally unable to walk. Totally tailless females may have birthing problems, depending on how her pelvis and spine were affected. For this reason, beginners to breeding should avoid working with manx. The best way to become prepared in breeding manx is to have a good, experienced manx rat or mouse breeder show you in person examples of manxs, how to inspect their spine, and how to decide when it is/isn't safe to breed a manx girl.
Your first challenge will be finding a good source of manx mice. Beware -- sometimes a normal mouse whose tail was removed by accident looks like a manx. If you're buying from a pet shop or broker, they may honestly not know if the mouse is manx or not.

Expect to travel a bit to get your first manx mice. Also expect to pay a bit more than usual for them, since manx mice are often priced high because of their unusual nature. The most I have paid for Manx was about $15 for a pair.

Although most people breeding mice are honest, the extra money manx mice bring also increases the chance they're not being bred properly.

Warning signs: claims the manx mice are "purebred"; this is impossible since mice do NOT come in breeds. Warning: Claims the totally-normal looking mice are "carriers"; all manx mice I've ever seen in the fancy get it from a dominant gene. A dominant gene, by definition, means the animal cannot carry the gene without showing it... so these mice simply could not have the gene without you seeing something.


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## SarahC

Thats interesting but there is nothing new or unknown in manx animals.All of them will have some degree of spinal deformity,it's just how severely they are affected.The only way to know for sure which would be suitable to breed from to produce reasonably healthy animals would be xray.To expensive for mice so whatever people might make out,they would have to just guess about breeding suitability and cull those that were crippled.


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## SarahC

Shiprat said:


> SarahC said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think dumbo mice would be nice and could be accepted.I like hairless mice but it can't be denied they have health issues as do skinny pigs and hairless rats.
> 
> 
> 
> right Sarah, how do we go about it?
Click to expand...

they crop up,we've had a few pics on here.Cait had a rather nice astrex dumbo and I've had many brokens with one dumbo ear,then you would need to select


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## Jack Garcia

Rhasputin said:


> Well we've got all of these varieties.
> 
> It's a matter of whether they are show-able or not.
> Is manx an accepted variety in any clubs?


Manx is shown in Provisional & Unstandardized in the ECMA. Right now, all of our manx are large PE selfs. The major challenge with the variety is getting completely tailless animals (without docking). A lot of them have small hamster-like tails.


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## Wight Isle Stud

the tail is an important balence organ for mice. Therfore I consider that breeding for no tails is a deformty, our bigger eyes and ears than a wild mouse would make them better suited in the wild. absolutely against tailless.


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## Matt Haslam

SarahC said:


> Shiprat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahC said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think dumbo mice would be nice and could be accepted.I like hairless mice but it can't be denied they have health issues as do skinny pigs and hairless rats.
> 
> 
> 
> right Sarah, how do we go about it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> they crop up,we've had a few pics on here.Cait had a rather nice astrex dumbo and I've had many brokens with one dumbo ear,then you would need to select
Click to expand...

excellent, we shall have to wait and see then, so spontaneous mutation then?


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## Jack Garcia

Every manx mouse I've ever met gets around fine. I think its balance would be an issue only if it were living in the wild. Then again, in the wild its light color and large ears would also be deformities. "Deformities" is an explosive, provocative word, though, so I would probably say something like "variation" instead. The meaning is almost the same, though it doesn't draw out people's passions quite the same way.


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## Seawatch Stud

Have some of you given any thought to actually trying to win something, anything with any existing mice at any existing shows? I know its pretty radical but just an idea!.


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## Matt Haslam

Seawatch Stud said:


> Have some of you given any thought to actually trying to win something, anything with any existing mice at any existing shows? I know its pretty radical but just an idea!.


PMSL i have given it thought, but there is this guy who keeps winning all the time, no chance for any of us!


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## Roland

Jack Garcia said:


> Whether or not a show mouse lives to 2 years doesn't matter much from a show standpoint. They're not pets--they're livestock. As long as they live long enough to win at show and reproduce, that's all that matters.


That is your goal Jack, but I am not the only person whose goals for breeding showtype mice differs. For me the health and wellbeing of my mice and a very friendly behaviour to humans and to other mice counts first. I happily accept to need much more time for improving the type of my mice by breeding with this principle. 
Probably you would never understand that I keep mice which are more than 2 years old now and do not reproduce anymore, but they will live here as long as they can. I just like their sweet personalities.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## Wight Isle Stud

Jack Garcia said:


> Every manx mouse I've ever met gets around fine. I think its balance would be an issue only if it were living in the wild. Then again, in the wild its light color and large ears would also be deformities. "Deformities" is an explosive, provocative word, though, so I would probably say something like "variation" instead. The meaning is almost the same, though it doesn't draw out people's passions quite the same way.


jack, if a mouse appeared in the wild with larger ears and eyes it would be a mutation that would enhance survival. i was not talking about colour. accepted theory of evolution i think you will find. No tail would not enhance survival capabilities at all.


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## Jack Garcia

Geordiesmice, where did you find that information? If it was on The Fun Mouse, they're limited in their information. There is the Brachyury manx, which is linked to chordomas, and there is the recessive manx they have in Australia, and there also seems to be a dominant one in Europe although I've only seen reference to it a couple times. It may be Brachyury, but I don't know for sure.



> Also expect to pay a bit more than usual for them, since manx mice are often priced high because of their unusual nature. The most I have paid for Manx was about $15 for a pair.


All of my mice (manx or otherwise) are free to qualified breeders. Excellent breeders are not in this for the money. I'm weary of any breeder who asks for large sums of money for mice. I mean...they're mice. They cost enough to ship and maintain! 



> Warning signs: claims the manx mice are "purebred"; this is impossible since mice do NOT come in breeds.


I think you're right, but this is not fully accurate. "Purebred" does not always or necessarily denote an animal having breeds. It sometimes denotes they way the animals in question are _bred_, depending on usage. "Purebred" can refer either to breed status _*or*_ to the way the animal has been bred, and it's tricky from an etymological standpoint because the two meanings are not entirely separate. They often overlap.



I'll be back. said:


> Jack Garcia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every manx mouse I've ever met gets around fine. I think its balance would be an issue only if it were living in the wild. Then again, in the wild its light color and large ears would also be deformities. "Deformities" is an explosive, provocative word, though, so I would probably say something like "variation" instead. The meaning is almost the same, though it doesn't draw out people's passions quite the same way.
> 
> 
> 
> jack, if a mouse appeared in the wild with larger ears and eyes it would be a mutation that would enhance survival. i was not talking about colour. accepted theory of evolution i think you will find. No tail would not enhance survival capabilities at all.
Click to expand...

Hmm...if giant ears (a la SarahY or Jenny or Roland or me) conferred a survival benefit you can believe that in the millions of years of mouse evolution you'd see them in at least one population of wild mice. As it stands now, you don't. There's some sort of mechanism selecting against ears larger than what wild mice currently have. I can't prove it, but I would bet that mechanism is heat conservation in cold weather.


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## Rhasputin

I have to agree with Jack on this one. Huge ears, and huge tails are not beneficial in the wild, or we'd almost certainly see them in at least a small population.

The tails and ears have equaled out on a wild mouse in such a way that the mouse has enough of both to get around properly and survive, but not put it's life in jeopardy.
However, there are exceptions to that, like the peacock's tail (which is horrible for it's owner's survival), but then sexual selection comes into the game, and that's a different matter.


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## Jack Garcia

Large ears are considered normal (as is non-agouti fur coloring) in the fancy, but there's no argument to say they're any less of a deformation than tailessness (or pink eyes or docility or any number of things). ALL of these traits are life-threatening to wild mice but not to domestic ones. You really can't pick and choose, unfortunately.

Do you know why you so rarely see feral chihuahuas? It's because they just don't last in the wild, just like a large show mouse (or a manx mouse of any sort) wouldn't last. But in captivity, under the care and guidance of people, they do fine.


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