# I'm so upset!!!!



## Maze

I don't know what to do anymore! All my mice are getting sick with sneezing and breathing infections. I have no way to cull the ones that are and I dont know what to do! I dont have a 
chamber as I have no money to get one and dont even know the first place to go and what is exactly the right thing. 
Now my herefords are sneezing!!!  I'm so upset they're my babies they're so lovely and I dont want to have to put them to sleep ( not that i have facilites too)
too many of my mice are with the same problem so I cant take them all to the vet! 
One of my does is pregnant and she hasnt been infected as of yet I've been very carful to wash my hands ever time i hold her but still I really dontwant the babies to get sick when they 
come one of the babies is sneezing a little from my other litter and i dont know what to do anymore. All the ill ones are in there own cages. im lost for ideas wen i dont have a chamber  and even so it will probably result in all of my mice dying  
HELP PLEASE!!!!!


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## SarahY

I'm so sorry to hear about your troubles  I had a similar thing with my rats a few years ago. The first thing I did was put the rats showing no symptoms in the bedroom, the sneezy but not actually sick ones went in the dining room, and the sick ones (about 70% of my stock at the time) stayed in the rattery. I washed and disinfected myself between each room, kept the doors shut and windows open and I was medicating like crazy (took me about 2 hours every morning and night for two weeks to syringe feed the medicine) but I cleared it. I lost about 12 rats in the end, and the ones in the bedroom didn't get sick at all.

However, nowadays I would cull all the sick ones and not spend all that time and money medicating, but I would medicate the best and youngest ones to save the line and not lose all my doves. I would suggest you first seperate the pregnant doe not showing symptoms into a seperate room and put her in a completely disinfected and clean cage and either get a CO2 pump from a cycle shop, a tupperware and a tube and cull your sickest mice, or see if someone close by can do it for you. I would, but I'm very far away  You can try and medicate the least sick mice and hopefully that'll work. Whatever you do it's going to cost money, and the CO2 chamber and tupperware will be most likely cheaper than medicine. If you can't get on the culling forum pm a moderator as there is a guide to making a chamber.

Sorry I can't be of more help and good luck, it's a horrible situation 

Sarah xxx


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## Maze

when you say sick do you mean clearly breathing badly like rattling as only one has that at the moment the rest are just sneezing  
and what would you use to medicate them?
And whats the difference between sniffling and sneezing in mice :?


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## SarahY

To me, sick means fur stuck up, listless behaviour, and generally looking unwell - these I would cull immediately as you very rarely bring them back from being that ill.

Sneezy but not actually sick means the mouse is behaving normally and looks fine but is sneezing/rattling etc - if they were all medicated soon enough they'd probably make it, although personally I would cull all but the best of them.

I used Septrim with a prescription from the vets, as if you have an actual outbreak a homemade remedy is not likely to stop it in time.

Sarah xxx


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## Loganberry

You should also try and find out why they're getting ill - it might be too drafty where they're being kept, perhaps, or too humid - you need to experiment to find out what might be causing the problem, as it is often environmental and if you don't figure it out it will keep reoccuring.


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## Maplewood Stud

SarahY said:


> To me, sick means fur stuck up, listless behaviour, and generally looking unwell - these I would cull immediately as you very rarely bring them back from being that ill.
> 
> Sneezy but not actually sick means the mouse is behaving normally and looks fine but is sneezing/rattling etc - if they were all medicated soon enough they'd probably make it, although personally I would cull all but the best of them.
> 
> I used Septrim with a prescription from the vets, as if you have an actual outbreak a homemade remedy is not likely to stop it in time.
> 
> Sarah xxx


sarah do u use septrin in tablet form, if so.. how do u give a dose.
im trying to build up and find out as much info as poss of medicating mice as my vet is a complete tit and wont prescribe anything. x


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## Peteyandthegang

Just wanted to say Im sorry  Were in exactly the same position at the moment-typically all our best and youngest mice are ill with it and were left with the elderly or those we dont need. I know how hard it is, our mousery is in real trouble at the mo

Weve moved all those showing symptoms into the garage and are treating, but the numbers are so high now and some are so ill that we will begin culling this weekend I think to prevent further spread/suffering. Well cull those who are rattling loudly with ruffled fur and generally look miserable, and keep treating those we think have a chance

Good luck, I really hope its resolved soon for you


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## Maze

thank you so much.
it makes it so much harder for me as I live in shared accommodation so I only have one room to myself!!
Also the flat is quite damp which I'm guessing doesn't help.
I'm really upset at the moment as, as you said typically its all of my favourites that have come down with this.
I've moved the worst ones to my mums for the time been until I can get facilities to put them out of their misery but 
the others I don't know what to do with and I think they do have a chance I just don't know what to give them that might help. 
I would hate myself if I had to put them down also, I fear the worst may have to happen, but I would still
like to try, they are my babies I love them very much   
Can I ask pete what you use to treat yours??
and I would also like to know about septrin


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## SarahY

Septrim is a banana flavoured human antibiotic for chest infections and things like that. It worked wonders, but you have to feed each animal the correct dose which is best done by syringing it into their mouths from the side into the opposite cheek (straight down their throats could choke them).

ETA: If your vet won't prescribe it, ask for a waiver form to sign, which will pass the responsibility of death/more illness due to wrongful medicating to you and and away from the vet. If they won't even do that, find another vet!

Sarah xxx


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## julieszoo

Really sorry to read of your hard time  Vinegar and bicarbonate of soda mixed together will also produce carbon dioxide if you need a cheap and easy source.


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## yyoung

I found a website that will prescribe Septrin (paediatric solution) without a prescription. I cant find the website but will keep looking and will let you know.

I got my last bottle from my vet for my guinea pigs. He gave me a whole bottle but it cost me £50 but I have been treating all my animals with it and it has saved me at least that in vet bills.

I have limited faith in vets at the moment


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## SarahC

I'm also very sorry that this has happened to you but if you breed mice and practice a no cull policy it is inevitable no matter how well you care for them.Your cages will quickly become full of mice that can't be bred from and your hobby will grind to a halt.It's understandable not to want to cull healthy individuals based on how good a colour or whatever they are but sick ones either have to go or be kept on as pets which then uses up the space for breeding healthy stock.Its a choice really between being a breeder with the problems of unhealthy ones cropping up on a regular basis or enjoying them as pets where as long as they have quality of life, less than perfect ones can be nurtured.I don't think the two can go together perfectly as people would like.Sorry to sound harsh but it is a cruel fact that mice are prone to these illnesses and most of us have suffered your current situation and found no happy ending.Antibiotics might save a few but more will come along and square one will be reached


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## Maze

These mice are my pets. I don't have a no cull policy I just haven't got the facilities as of yet to cull older ones  . 
I've only had one litter ever so I don't really count myself as a breeder yet as I am still a beginner. 
But I do understand what you mean. And I would cull any that are really sick but these are just sneezing so I'm praying there
might still be some hope left if I can get something from my vets.


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## Cait

I agree with Sarah - if you are to breed you will come across these situations and it's up to you if you choose to cull or not. If you don't however you do risk it spreading and being in a worse situation. If you decide to keep pets only and treat then of course you will still lose mice but you will also keep animals that for a number of reasons a breeder wouldn't keep (e.g. they're weak, they have lifelong problems or symptoms due to the illness etc) but can live out their lives, albeit not in peak condition. There's nothing wrong with keeping your pets despite some problems, I think as long as you are realistic about their quality of life and put them down if necessary that's fine, it just isn't practical if you are breeding on any scale.


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## SarahC

Well many get over it so fingers crossed for yours.


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## Maze

I'm coming to the conclusion that I may just put them all to sleep  
I'm so sad about this and its the hardest decision I've had to make.
I just wanted to know if anyone else has had to do this, even if they seem healthy otherwise? 
Keeping in mind I love these mice very much they're not breeding stock etc.
I just feel very bad, if I'm to do so, when they seem fine other than the sneezing.
And I would feel even worse if I was to do so and it still didn't help the situation.
Is it possible that others my be infected but not showing signs? 
And does anyone know if this is airborne or be passed by contact?


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## SarahC

there is some suggestion that all mice carry the bugs responsible and only the weaker individuals or ones under stress for instance after a litter go on to develop symptoms.Or an infection could have been introduced with new stock.Without proper lab tests there isn't any way of knowing what is causing it.What is clear is rats and mice are very prone.The ones who haven't displayed symptoms may be fine.If they were my pets and otherwise in good health I'd sit back and wait.After all the others must already have been exposed and nature will run it's course.It's not your fault.Our first mice from the petshop rattled like trains and lived a full life.We never thought anything of it until we started showing.


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## yyoung

I agree with what Sarah has just said. If they are your pets I would try and help them (I am a softy and try to help everything that comes my way though). I have now acquired (dont know how this happened !) 40+ mice and have seen LOTS of sniffling and chuffing. I've only lost 2 mice though and to be honest I think the first was down to complete ignorance and the second was just really ill.

It is different for breeders but for pets I would treat them (personally I would use Septrin) and see what happens. If they all die then you've lost nothing if you are thinking about having them all PTS anyway but if some pull through then you have gained some of your mice back.

Good luck


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## Cait

If they are truly ill, for example ruffled staring coats, hunched over or waddling when they walk, clucking like a chicken, have laboured breathing and generally look really miserable then I think they should be culled. If however they are snuffly or sneezing but otherwise are acting normal and don't seem ill (other than the noises) and they are pet only then you can try treating them and seeing if they pull through. If any have no symptoms you may want to keep those mice together (and still treat them) and the ones with symptoms together in a separate room. When I had pet mice the thing that I found actually worked most often (baytril didn't do much) was antirobe - it's actually for cats but my vet prescribed a couple of capsules (!) for the mice and it did seem to do the trick. I don't remember how much it cost but I don't think it was expensive. You can also give Avipro or echinacea to try and boost their immune systems. Also it may seem obvious but don't bring any new mice into your colony while you're trying to sort this out.


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## yyoung

I've never even heard of Antirobe but will certainly be looking into it now. Where can you get Avipro from ? does it have to be a dispensing place or will a pet shop have it ?


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## Cait

Avipro is available to order online here: http://www.noahs-cupboard.co.uk/detail.asp?catno=4&pnum=A2A4Z It's a probiotic and can help when an animal is on antibiotics, which also kill the good bacteria in the gut. Pet shops do also sell it - the smallest one will last a long time for mice!


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## NaomiR

I've spent 3 (harrowing) weeks trying to pull my meeces through this and ended up having them all put to sleep which was totally soul destroying, after all my hard work and also considering 7 of them were babies I'd watched being born 

Thankfully at the first sneeze they were put into another shed but one in my main shed has also had to be put to sleep because he started sneezing but was otherwise healthy  

I've learnt a very painful lesson, I honestly DON'T believe they can be pulled through if you have more than 2-3 poorly and yes I also believe it's airborn.

I'm so very sorry you're going through this maze mouse, I wish I could do more to help x


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## sarahh

# Comment removed by moderator #

The above comment has been removed by a moderator for breaking the forum rules.

Please ensure you read the forum rules.


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## SarahC

don't worry to much Naomi,if heaven won't take you you can look through the gates from the otherside with me.


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## SarahY

> # Comment removed by moderator #
> 
> The above comment has been removed by a moderator for breaking the forum rules.
> 
> Please ensure you read the forum rules.


That was completely uncalled for, it's not your place to push your beliefs on others - especially in such a mean and spiteful manner. If you don't agree that's fine, but please be respectful towards others.

Sarah.


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## Maze

Well as it is 4 that are sneezing even though they seem healthy maybe the better option would be to PTS and maybe treat the ones that aren't showing signs?
It is heartbreaking but I wouldn't want any others to catch it.



sarahh said:


> # Comment removed by moderator #
> 
> The above comment has been removed by a moderator for breaking the forum rules.
> 
> Please ensure you read the forum rules.


And this doesn't make sense, why would it be nature getting its own back on the mice? They 
didn't do anything :?


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## Debbie

sarahh said:


> # Comment removed by moderator #
> 
> The above comment has been removed by a moderator for breaking the forum rules.
> 
> Please ensure you read the forum rules.


Thats nice :roll:  Good old nature seems to be picking on the poor little mice :lol: Perhaps they culled there own litters at some stage !!! Shame on them :lol: 
Don't worry me dear. I will be gate crashing too, if I can be bothered as I prefer the sound of hot and fun 

At least you have got it under control and you know that you did everything possible to try to help them.


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## Maplewood Stud

sarahc said:


> don't worry to much Naomi,if heaven won't take you you can look through the gates from the otherside with me.


i agree with this too naomi, remember ive met u and had mice off u and really believe ur an excellent breeder, dont take no bloody notice of that comment, u did what u felt was best for ur mice, u stopped them from suffering and at the end of the day i think thats very brave of u - i dont think i could do it. well done u  x x


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## yyoung

Given the 'type' of forum this is I find that comment quite odd.



> # Comment removed by moderator #
> 
> The above comment has been removed by a moderator for breaking the forum rules.
> 
> Please ensure you read the forum rules.


But I do disagree with Naomi in that they can (that doesn't mean that they will but that they can) recover. I have had mice that have made a full recovery....in fact just a couple of weeks ago I had one that I felt for absolute certainty would die. She was down to about half her weight and she really did look like a skeleton, she was very ill and she looked pitiful. I haven't personally got it in me to do the deed but in all honesty that would have been the kindest thing to do. However, here we are today and she is back to her normal weight and running around .... totally fine. Point I am making is that they can recover I believe.

I don't think for one instance that anybody thinks you didn't do your very very best for your mice (as with all your animals) though Naomi. Please don't be disheartened by a thoughtless comment. I don't think it was meant maliciously but it was maybe a tad insensitive.

Maze ... I am sure you also will do the very best for your mice. And don't forget people commenting on this forum are not watching your mice and cannot possibly know how ill they are (and that includes me of course !) I am sure you will make the right decisions for your mice.

To everyone with sick mice and animals I wish us all good luck


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## ian

Yes some can recover but you have to bear in mind that they will be shedidng and possibly spreading the disease even though they are now healthy themselves. I wouldn't worry too mh about this however as nearly all mie carry the disease but it tends to have an effect when the mouse is immunosupressed.


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## Kage Davies

I treat mine with Ronaxin, tablets for cats from my vet. Very inexpensive. It can kill by overdose if you're not careful though, but its very effective. Grind it into a powder, and then dab the tiniest bit onto a mealie worm. Mine all take it very easily.

I also have the same problem. It will never leave your stock, unless you cull all who show symptoms or get sick, and everyone in contact with those. Even the sick ones who recover will get it over again. They carry it, pass it on. Their babies carry it and pass it on... Every new mouse that comes in picks it up.

I'm also faced with the decision to cull my whole stock and start again, or stop breeding until all of my mice pass away DX. Don't want to sell on a sick mouse, and infect someone else's stock.


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## NaomiR

does anyone know why there is so much of this about at the moment??


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## Kage Davies

it was a terrible winter for it, that's when mine all picked it up. Since then they've just reinfected each other and spread it round.


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## ian

I had the odd few cases of it throughout last year but in November it semeed to explode out of control and I had to cull whole lines out of my rump white lines. Luckily I managed to keep my blues and blacks seperate as I had only just started and only had the first few of each variety so if I'd lost them I probably wouldnt have any now.


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## SarahC

it's not just this year,it's been with the mouse fancy since the dawn.I have two fancy mice books that are over 100 years old and it was present then.They called it asthma.


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## Maze

Kage Davies said:


> I'm also faced with the decision to cull my whole stock and start again, or stop breeding until all of my mice pass away DX. Don't want to sell on a sick mouse, and infect someone else's stock.


Me and my OH spoke about this today and have decided to just not breed again and let our mice pass away in their own time :roll: and not get any new mice.
It was a tough decision but it was the best option for us, and we really can't cull our whole family of mice and tbh we figure there really isn't much point most of them seem healthy, the ones that clearly aren't we're going to PTS asap. 
I tried to get hold of vets today turned into a complete nightmare. They won't see another one of my mice as I have to wait 6 months or some rubbish to re register. Tried to call a few other places and everywhere else won't see mice. All I wanted was a bloody prescription!
So I'm lost for getting antibiotics atm. I'm gonna have to get some immune boosters and hope they get better.
Thank you everyone for being so helpful, this has really opened my eyes 
and I've learn't a lot from comments.


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## dangermouse

thats very interesting Sarah ........ I had read about mice and asthma in the news reciently too.I wonder if the books are available in the libary


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## Kage Davies

I can post you a ronaxin tab if you feel comfortable PMing me your address. Our vet is fantastic, they gave me four (enough for literally hundreds of doses.) and I can go back for more any time. Its a cat antibiotic that's done wonders for mine.


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## Maplewood Stud

hun click on my name and go to the topic i posted called further update, on the 3rd page theres a link to a webpage u can buy antibiotics they have baytril and a few others + u dont need a prescrip x


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## Maze

Kage Davies said:


> I can post you a ronaxin tab if you feel comfortable PMing me your address. Our vet is fantastic, they gave me four (enough for literally hundreds of doses.) and I can go back for more any time. Its a cat antibiotic that's done wonders for mine.


Omg, I would love this if you would be willing!! I've been finding it so hard to get a hold of anything.
I would really like to give you a bit of money for it but don't know how I would get it to you?

@leigh I had a look at the site, took me forever to find (I'm clearly blind) and I'm not sure I trust it, also £30-40+ is this really how expensive baytril and other antibiotics are!!! :shock: I really never realised in which case its nearly impossible for me to 
afford anything like this!
They all seem to be doing alright for the moment anyhow.


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## Kage Davies

Maze said:


> Kage Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can post you a ronaxin tab if you feel comfortable PMing me your address. Our vet is fantastic, they gave me four (enough for literally hundreds of doses.) and I can go back for more any time. Its a cat antibiotic that's done wonders for mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Omg, I would love this if you would be willing!! I've been finding it so hard to get a hold of anything.
> I would really like to give you a bit of money for it but don't know how I would get it to you?
> 
> @leigh I had a look at the site, took me forever to find (I'm clearly blind) and I'm not sure I trust it, also £30-40+ is this really how expensive baytril and other antibiotics are!!! :shock: I really never realised in which case its nearly impossible for me to
> afford anything like this!
> They all seem to be doing alright for the moment anyhow.
Click to expand...

Its fine, just PM me your address. Each tablet cost me something like... three pound? How many are you dosing? You need such a tiny amount that one tablet has covered all of my doses so far, and thats 25+ mice on a week's course. And I have two spare, so its no problem.

My vet charges well under a fiver for our Baytril, too. But I can't post that. I also have some spare Bisolvon you can have, which goes in their water with a bit of juice to clear their airways. I'll write down all of the instructions when I post them to you.


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## Maze

Aww thank you so much! bless you. 
I will pm you my address.


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