# New American Citizens! The new UK choco- tan had her babies!



## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Well we have three new squeakers who have entered the world! The chocolate tan girl from the big import shipment gave birth. At first pinkie guess I think I have one black tan and two chocolate tans...but it's way early to say for sure. 
I will update this post with pictures as they grow! Little cuties!


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Yay! Congratulations. 

How do you pick the diff between choc and black at that age?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Yaaaaaaaaaay! So excited for you! Bucks or does?


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> Yay! Congratulations.
> 
> How do you pick the diff between choc and black at that age?


Well at this point it is just a good guess based on the skin tone of the pinkies. You can see that top pinkie's skin is already turning darker. So I could be wrong, but it's my educated guess.



Laigaie said:


> Yaaaaaaaaaay! So excited for you! Bucks or does?


I have not looked yet, but I am honestly terrible at that until the nipples show! I will leave her be this weekend and try and sex them Sunday night or Monday.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

candycorn said:


> Well at this point it is just a good guess based on the skin tone of the pinkies. You can see that top pinkie's skin is already turning darker. So I could be wrong, but it's my educated guess.


Ah yes, I can just see that. They look nice and healthy!


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

Oh wow! She got here just in time xD
First UK mice born. Exciting <3
*dances*


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Great news!


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

That's very cool! She looked bigger than 3 though!


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

YAY! We're having a baby boom on the forum it seems.  I'm so excited to see photos.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Update! 
Well I have two black tans and a chocolate tan! 2 does and a buck (I think) with one of the blacks being the buck. That one will be available for my rehoming list. 
They are a bit skinnier than I like, so I bumped up mom's food/protein and am hoping for the best. I have nothing else handy to foster these guys to at the moment. She has been a very attentive mom so here is hoping they start to fatten up.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Aww welcome to the States little guys!

Quick question - is there a way to bump protein with something other than dog kibble? My female doesn't seem keen anymore (she used to love it) and chooses lab blocks first. My babies are a bit on the small side too (and there are also only three).


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Scrambled egg and mealworms are other great protein options.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I find she'll eat scrambled eggs but she'll leave it for an hour or so. As in she'll walk right by and just before I think about taking it out she takes a couple of bites. A finicky mouse...wouldn't survive in the wild.  (sorry for the thread hijack!)


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I have a lovely little rex PEW from you who has only three babies.
They are only about a week old, If you think it's needed we could arrange for her to foster them.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

We are growing up! Aren't they sweet? The tan is starting to show now.

Oh and the next new citizens are on the way. Molly is starting to show!









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## doganddisc (May 21, 2012)

Gorgeous!! Absolutely gorgeous! You must be so excited!

I can't wait to see the reds! Drool.. 

Would there be cinnamons in the litter of reds? I'm still understanding how red works.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Oh my word. Chocolate is amazing.

The red just goes without saying.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Cinnamon is agouti+chocolate. There should be no cinnamon. Since these are agouti-based reds, they're Ay/A. Bred together, you get 25% Ay/Ay (which will be reabsorbed in the womb), 50% Ay/A (reds, like the parents), and 25% A/A (golden agouti). That means that, of the mice actually born, you should get on average 67% red and 33% agouti. Or, out of a litter of ten, three red males, three red females, one or two agouti males, and one or two agouti females. Of course, it never works quite like that, but don't we all wish it did?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Laigaie: Are you saying, then, that the dark reddish one is golden agouti?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Oh, no! The litter of babies pictured is from the chocolate tan, bred to a black tan. The question about cinnamons was in reference to the pregnant Red doe (bred to a Red).


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

doganddisc said:


> Would there be cinnamons in the litter of reds? I'm still understanding how red works.


The way that red works is this:

Ay/* means red. The "*" in this case means "anything other than red," because Ay/Ay is reabsorbed in the womb and is never born. (That's what "homozygous lethal" means.)

In practical terms, the "*" is usually A (agouti). There are black-based reds and black-tan based reds, too.

In some red mice (such as the ones I and a few others have), they are always homozygous for chocolate (Ay/A b/b). However, they needn't be to produce good reds. The chocolate is included to take away the last vestiges of black pigment (because chocolate mice, qua chocolate mice, produce no black pigment--that's what makes them chocolate).

When you see cinnamons in a litter of reds, it's because the reds are also agouti (A) and chocolate (b/b). If the reds aren't b/b (as the recently imported ones aren't), then you'll just get agouti instead of cinnamons.

The only real difference between cinnamon-based reds and agouti-based reds is that cinnamon based reds have the potential to be a tiny bit more fulvous and ruddy (because they cannot produce black pigment) whereas agouti-based reds are a tiny bit brighter, with more contrast (because they can produce a little bit of black pigment). Both types have lots of potential for good red color, but I think agouti-based reds would be better for outcrossing into tans, sables, and other varieties because the black pigment would be needed. Cinnamon-based reds would be best for their own sake, or for producing fawn (whether e/e or Ay/*) and PE tans, because you'd want to get rid of any trace of black pigment.

Both varieties are good and their differences--though real--are small.

Red is one of the varieties which does not breed true, so no matter what, when breeding red X red, you'll get "something else." That "something else" could ostensibly be black, chocolate, black tan, chocolate tan, agouti, agouti tan, cinnamon, and/or cinnamon tan, depending on what's also going on on the A- and B-loci of each of the red parents.

By the way--since the recently imported reds do not contain chocolate, they would probably make an excellent outcross to American brindle, which needs both red (base) and black (stripes) pigment. I'd be very interested in seeing pictures of anyone who bred red X brindle.

I hope this helps!


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Oh super idea. I just need to steal a good brindle doe from Ann.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Or just toss her an excess buck, since it's the brindles being improved, not the reds.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Lol so very true. And lord knows I dont need a new project


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Avy/* s/s is one way to create non-traditional tricolors (red, black, and white), as well. If you had a good red-bred brindle with deep black stripes, that would make things eaiser to start out.

Do Ann's mice brindles not have chocolate bases? I might have mis-remembered that...


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I no longer have A^vy...but I imported an agouti buck from the red line and a red doe for the specific purpose of creating recessive red x-brindles (by crossing the non-reds from the red lines with e/e in order to increase the red pigment in e/e mice)


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Are you trying to do that with or without chocolate, Stina (or does it matter)? I ask because the ones you have from me are definitely chocolate...


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## love2read (Aug 30, 2011)

I have a Brindle doe I can put with my buck. I'll be sure to post if she has anything spectacular.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Jack, with chocolate mostly...with x-brindle there isn't black unless the animal is black based anyway (and there is no orange on a black based x-brindle). Most of my x-brindle and e/e's are/have been chocolate, cinnamon, or agouti based.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Update...

Well the little ones are growing up...but I am having some difficulty. They are very small and one in particular is extremely small and thin. I think she is failing to thrive. I put a pink star by her one picture. She is close to the camera in that one..so it doesn't show but she is half the size of her sibs and has a boney tail. I would normally cull...but god it seems such a tragity in one of the new imports. I would never bred her myself...so I guess I just need a second opinion. 
Typing it out...I really see what I need to do, it's just such a bummer. Anyone want to second my thoughts? 
Otherwise the color is nice on these guys although I think they have a LONG way to go in type. 

































I also sexed them wrong. I so fail at pinkie sexing. It looks like the chocolate is a buck along with the two black does. Which is good...cause I will breed him back to chocolate mom! I have been feeding milkbones, kibble, seed, native earth, cheerios, and mealworms to try and bulk these guys up a bit. Mom is not doing a great job and I have no one to foster her brood on. 
I am going to have to get a good foster mother going for the next litter!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Typing it out...I really see what I need to do, it's just such a bummer. Anyone want to second my thoughts?
> Otherwise the color is nice on these guys although I think they have a LONG way to go in type.


Any mouse with a thin bony tail at this age will not make a breeding mouse. I would cull.

What's wrong with the type? Are you comparing them to the large typey pale selfs? If so, that's a big mistake in tan breeding. While type should not be ignored, tans are bred for depth of colour, not humungous size  You can't get any real depth of pigment on a large mouse, that's why black self, blue self, tans, agoutis, etc are smaller mice than PEWs and champagnes.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Type is not the point of a tan! You wouldn't get near so great a tan if you had bred for type instead. I'm glad you know what you need to do. If it's not worth breeding, there's no point in draining resources. She had a hard time right before her litter, and she's still a bit young yet. Given a good break and a bit of a beefing up, I'm sure she'll do better next time..


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Oh no, I don't mean size persay. But I would like to improve head shape ( I like the rounder look) and ear size...but color is my priority! And thanks. I made the right decision. I went ahead and culled her. And yes I will give the mom a good while to recoup.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

You can definitely improve type in tans without losing the deep, rich, color. It is difficult to do, but not at all impossible.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Jack Garcia said:


> You can definitely improve type in tans without losing the deep, rich, color. It is difficult to do, but not at all impossible.


And that is definatly my goal.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Well we are just two days away from 4 weeks old! They sure are tiny...but cute little cuties! Look at the ears on little Princess Grace!
















And little Prince Phillip is so handsome. The color is more true to life in the first picture. 









Those were the only two survivors in the litter...but they have great news to share!
Queen Victoria is Expecting! Horray for more tans on the way!


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

I LOVE that little mouse! Her ears are spectacular!!!


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

I have to say, the little choc tan is my favourite! i've always liked them over the blacks, the colours compliment each other so well  good luck with the next litter!


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