# mouse trains



## Jack Garcia

In the US, distances between mouse fanciers are enormous. The closest show breeder to me is at 4-5 hours away, driving. The next-closest is around 6-7 hours away (including stopping for dinner. I can't drive that far without eating!).

There's a common practice in the US among many pet breeders and a few show breeders (but not all show breeders) of doing mouse trains, wherein, depending on the distance being covered, the mice being trained will be in the care of "middlemen" (though they're usually women, lol) for hours, days, or even weeks.

I choose not to participate in mouse trains, as a matter of policy. Everyone who has gotten mice from me (Amber, Amy, Jessica, Jenny, Kadee, Herman, and others on this forum, plus many others) has come to pick them up or met me somewhere. I do this because I don't trust my mice going through a whole series of hands. I have thus done mouse trains only twice, and both times it was with somebody I trust a tremendous amount and to somebody I trust a tremendous amount with no other stops.

This makes mice harder to obtain, but it ensures that they won't be harmed, lost, or bred from in the transfer. I don't have to name names but most people involved in the US fancy know of an individual who stole mice she was training to someone else and claimed they died. This has been a few years ago. And there was recently an individual who neglected somebody else's mice, and many of those mice died.

I've been berated for not doing mouse trains, on three different occasions, by people who really want mice from me but won't choose to come get them or meet me somewhere nearby. I stand by not doing mouse trains. I actually think it's often safer to ship mice.

I would imagine that Australia, being enormous like the US, has similar issues. Is this the case?

Or, is it the case in smaller countries as well? I'm curious how "everybody else" handles the issue of mouse trains.


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## SarahC

As we are fortunate to have more than one show on every single month,I have met all of the club members who actively show many times and would have no qualms about entrusting mice to any of them.No chance of stock being stolen  ,we trade mice freely amongst ourselves for no money.I wouldn't lose sleep worrying if someone had used a buck of mine for breeding off of on route,so what?


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## Seawatch Stud

If you American mousers were more relaxed and less uptight about things you would probably all get on much better. In the fancy over here we are friendly and accomodating. No one would dream of stealing someones mice over here, or even letting someone else down. We have mouse trains all the time and Im not aware of there ever being a serious problem with one. If I lived in the U.S I would not be involved in your fancy for all the tea in China. The endless arguing and disputes between you, just on here are tedious. The seemingly endless rules and regulations you burden yourselves with just makes me want to weep. Why cant you all just chill out and try and get along? I have read accounts on here of threatening behaviour, and people being banned from shows, even threats of legal action! Its frankly ridiculous. Try to remember its a hobby, and stop taking youselves so seriously.


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## WillowDragon

Agrees wholeheartedly with Phil.


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## bethmccallister

Jack, thanks for posting about your reasons for not wanting to do a mouse train. I had hoped I hadn't offended you somehow weeks ago when I suggested and now I understand. I still would like to meet up with you and wish you were coming to the show. Some day I would still like to obtain some of your dominant red mousies and perhaps at a later date some extreme black ones. I don't know if anyone else is actively breeding dominant reds for obvious reasons but I would to give it my best shot. I would be willing to breed them how you recommend or request, but that gets back to the trust issue and us needing to meet in person.


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## thekylie

I think the problem with American mousers is there really aren't even nearly the numbers of good breeders in the US as I've even seen on this forum that are breeding to an exhibition standard. I can only think of 5 offhand. So they are closely guarded and aren't just handed out willy-nilly to anyone. And people do lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want. It only takes a few lies that hurt your mice before you lose trust in strangers. From what I've seen on this forum and another European forum, even your pet quality mice are superior to most of the "show type" (I use the term loosely) here. Maybe ya'll should ship over some more of your beautiful mice so we have less to squabble about! lol.

I wonder if it has something to do with how competitive Americans are on a whole. We take everything seriously over here, and it sucks. I'm in the small number that's an exception, as I am one of the least competitive people I know and just want everyone to get along. This is probably going to be my downfall of breeding here. I've never been to a mouse show but I've seen plenty of online drama, and that's only what leeks out to the general public! It worries me about really getting into the fancy more seriously. I do have to say, most people I've met have been lovely, and helpful, and nothing has ever been said against me personally and I have zero problems with anyone I've talked to so far. I admire all the breeders I've talked to and am learning a lot from them, and as far as I'm concerned I want to stay out of the drama as much as possible. It does make me sad to see it though. You just cant' take everything personally. Also, since we talk online more than in person (unlike in your fancy), it's easier to say rude things, or more commonly to accidentally take things the wrong way.

Just my 2 cents. I'm an observer by nature.


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## Seawatch Stud

I have sent mice to the U.S. Im sure it didn't have any effect on the squabbling one way or the other. As for being competitive, no country in the world has a more competitive Mouse fancy than we do in the U.K. The standard of our mice is also (through competition) of the highest standard in the world. The big difference it seems to me is, however successful a mouse fancier is over here they retain at least a little humility and sense of proportion. We love our fancy and we help and support each other as much as possible. I am proud to call all the fanciers I know friends.


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## bethmccallister

I think it has everything to do with how rare U.S. mouse fanciers are and even more so about how rare a show type fancy mouse is in the U.S. The amount of time and effort and cash that I've put into my hobby is excessive and bordering obsessive and I only have the pet store variety to claim to my mousery name. If I had something that I knew no one else had I would be extremely protective also.


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## moustress

Right now I'd be very interested in a mouse train, and I'd be willing to drive a good long way to get some stock to replace what I've lost. The thought that someone would abscond with meeces that were meant for me is almost inconceivable. We're such a small population that no one can get away with that without ruining their reputation.


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## setterchick

*moustress* If you find anyone in N. MN or North Dakota we travel back and forth often and we can help!


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## SarahC

It's not a case of giving out mice willy nilly.I have zero interest in supplying pretty pets or stock to fly by nights.My mice are my passion and they cost me a small fortune.I supply them in the hope that among all the waste of time people there will be some diamonds to carry on the good work and luckily there are.I have also sent mice to America.


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## thekylie

Seawatch Stud said:


> I have sent mice to the U.S. Im sure it didn't have any effect on the squabbling one way or the other. As for being competitive, no country in the world has a more competitive Mouse fancy than we do in the U.K. The standard of our mice is also (through competition) of the highest standard in the world. The big difference it seems to me is, however successful a mouse fancier is over here they retain at least a little humility and sense of proportion. We love our fancy and we help and support each other as much as possible. I am proud to call all the fanciers I know friends.


That was a joke about the squabbling. Unless every single person had an easily accessible source of perfectly perfect mice there would still be squabbling. And then there would be no need for improvement and the hobby would die and that's completely counter-productive.

And I didn't mean competitive about the fancy. I meant competitive about EVERYTHING. It's a constant undercurrent of competition to everything. You're almost raised in this country that if you're not the best, your a failure. And that's not what parents teach, that's what society teaches. I was trying more to comment on society's obsession with competition as opposed to the mousers. It's obvious you guys take your fancy seriously and are competitive and have the best mice as a result. I'm not complaining at all!



SarahC said:


> It's not a case of giving out mice willy nilly.I have zero interest in supplying pretty pets or stock to fly by nights.My mice are my passion and they cost me a small fortune.I supply them in the hope that among all the waste of time people there will be some diamonds to carry on the good work and luckily there are.I have also sent mice to America.


The first part of this is the same attitude I've seen amongst the few serious breeders I've seen, and I agree with it. I think we have a problem with the supplying them to people that aren't diamonds part. There is a serious lack of trust that I've noticed in the mouse community in general here and it bothers me. However, I recognize the huge investment of time and money that has to go into getting really quality mice over here, so I can't condemn anyone at all for their guarding their stock.

Part of why I love this forum so much is because I love how you guys all work together and help each other, while still having fun competing. I haven't seen hardly any drama at all on here, and it's nice. I know I hope in the next few years to try to work with some of you guys to import some tans, because they are the only variety I truly love and they just aren't that nice over here. But part of that too is I really look forward to being able to help others in the US who love tans to get some decent stock so we can work to bring the variety up to par in the states. Not everyone is unwilling to work together and help each other. Maybe us youngsters are just naive and silly and haven't been taught not to trust yet, but I think overall there are more good people in the fancy than bad. The drama just gets more attention.


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## SarahC

It's nice to find some one with a balanced view :clap


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## Jack Garcia

Seawatch Stud said:


> If you American mousers were more relaxed and less uptight about things you would probably all get on much better. In the fancy over here we are friendly and accomodating. No one would dream of stealing someones mice over here, or even letting someone else down. We have mouse trains all the time and Im not aware of there ever being a serious problem with one. If I lived in the U.S I would not be involved in your fancy for all the tea in China. The endless arguing and disputes between you, just on here are tedious. The seemingly endless rules and regulations you burden yourselves with just makes me want to weep. Why cant you all just chill out and try and get along? I have read accounts on here of threatening behaviour, and people being banned from shows, even threats of legal action! Its frankly ridiculous. Try to remember its a hobby, and stop taking youselves so seriously.


I think what you're saying makes sense from your perspective because it's easier when you do know everybody, can trust the processes in general, and get along with more frequent meetings. That's impossible when there are thousands of miles separating you from the next person and you see each other two or three times a year, if that. The distance (both in space and in time spent between meetings) can't be underestimated because it allows for people to be sketchy if they want to be, without as much consequence. This physical distance is what allows people to feel safe stealing others' mice and shipping containers (for example). If you live 2,000 miles away, it's _much_ easier to lie about what you're doing, and good breeders have to thus guard against this. You can't just let people steal from you (mice, supplies, intellectual property like standards), spread lies, and harass you and then be told to "relax" about it.

For the record, the ECMA is one club that has never banned anyone from a show, and the public is always welcome to every function. The same can be said for the AFRMA, but not for all US clubs. That's unfortunate. I understand and accept that people don't get along personally, and that's OK. But to ban people from shows or make them invitation-only seems counterproductive. Why have a show (of any sort: mouse/dog/bird) if you don't allow people to attend?


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## thekylie

As a geographer by profession, I must admit I do find the results of geography on the two different fancies much more fascinating than I probably should.

Sorry for the interruption.


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## Jack Garcia

No, I think you're right. It fascinates me too and is probably our biggest difference. The geography itself is often underestimated because a lot of people don't understand the sheer scale of the US. You could drive for weeks and still see only a teeny fraction of the country. This is why trains (the original topic) are necessary but also why they're so dangerous. For example, if you were driving a train of mice from Frenchville ME to San Diego, it'd take at least 4 or 5 days (assuming you slept) and you'd see only a thin sliver of the country. This is assuming only one driver but in reality you'd need a lot more (let's say at least 12). The fact that we don't all know each other and don't get to see each other at shows is very important because it allows people to be more fickle, legalistic, and protective than they would otherwise need to be if they got to see each other often and were able to simply be in each others' company more often like they do in the UK.

Personally, I've had people steal supplies and money from me at shows and in the hotel, but not mice themselves. I've also had people call me in disguised voices and curse me out, telling me that "my kind" wasn't welcome at a show because I chose not to bring mice (they felt they had a right to my animals). I'm not the only person who experienced this, but I'm one of the only persons who will fight back and has the means to pursue any options I need to to end harassment (which, like theft, is _illegal_)! Far too many good breeders have simply left the hobby all together because they couldn't afford to pursue legal options or because they just didn't want to bother with it.

The closest to the English fancy that we have in the US is in SoCal. This is because, like the UK, SoCal is extremely densely populated and people live close together. Coincidentally (or not), the best Californian mice (often bred by Karen Robbins) rival or out-compete the best UK mice. The breeders down there are wise enough not to get involved in the online mouse scene, though.


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## Seawatch Stud

I think its much more about attitude of mind than distance or any other criteria. I think you are elitist and have failed to understand the simple principles that underpin the Mouse fancy in other countries. If you were more inclusive and welcoming in your approach to people who want mice you may discover the next big thing in the American fancy is the person you wont arrange a mouse train for. I would happily risk good stock to find new fanciers to carry the flag. I give away winning stock all the time, and the truth is thats the price you have to pay to find the few diamonds out there waiting to become top fanciers. This is where we differ, and why we have a healthy and productive fancy and you don't. Sorry but there it is.


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## Jack Garcia

I've heard the elitist accusation before and I think I understand where it comes from (although I may not--feel free to educate me). I can't speak for all American fanciers, but personally, I have _very_ high standards when it comes to dealing with people. There's a fine line between being elitist and simply maintaining very high personal standards (as well as high mouse standards), and different people draw that line in different places, but I don't think the line really exists. This is true not just of mice, but of most things that are worth doing in life. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of having too-high standards when it comes to dealing with people than having too-low standards.



> This is where we differ, and why we have a healthy and productive fancy and you don't.


You're under-playing the importance of the geography again. I'm not saying that it's all geography--just that the geography allows for the other things to happen much more easily than they ever could in smaller countries. I also think you're underestimating the difference of history. The UK has a spectacular mouse history, and ours is shorter and more checkered. I wonder if there are any folks who have lived and shown in both the US and UK for any length of time. I'd love to hear from them. As far as I know, though, there are none. It would be interesting to get a perspective from somebody who has lived and shown in both countries for more than just a visit.

(Btw, I've also given lots of nice mice out to people. I've given mice to probably a dozen people in 2010. Five of them belong here but they don't seem to post much.)


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## Megzilla

Seawatch Stud said:


> If you were more inclusive and welcoming in your approach to people who want mice you may discover the next big thing in the American fancy is the person you wont arrange a mouse train for. I would happily risk good stock to find new fanciers to carry the flag. I give away winning stock all the time, and the truth is thats the price you have to pay to find the few diamonds out there waiting to become top fanciers.


Sorry i'm gunna have to butt in..
I really agree with this. And Phil I aim this at you, but you were one of the first breeders I talked to when I joined the NMC, and you really did take me by suprise! I felt so welcomed knowing that on the first show i'd ever been to you were willing to give me two of your fantastic blacks (I would have if those people didn't turn up!). And there after you said that I could have some of your mice for free, along with other breeders helping me and sharing their secrets, it really did inspire me to become one of those people who people look up to and seek mice from them. I doubt i'll ever be one of those, but doesn't mean a gal can't dream! 
I can't wait for the day when I can give back to the fancy what it's given to me (that includes all you amazing people who have helped me)

You may carry on now.


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## thekylie

I'm staying away from the elitist part of this.

I agree that it is not all the fault of geography, but it is a factor that can't be ignored in why we have issues in this fancy. I put a thread up asking for a little bit of information so I can build a map because this conversation has made me curious, and I want to see it laid out graphically because that's' how I understand things the best.

I also strongly agree with the statement that we need to be more inclusive and welcoming. I didn't have a problem personally, and for the most part I don't think people do, but I have also seen newbies attacked and jumped on and told they were awful for doing things that they honestly didn't know any better about. It's a big reason I've only lurked in the online community for years and just recently started actually talking.


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## Matt Haslam

I just have to say what an amazingly well conducted debate this is. A real credit to this forum and the members taking part.



oh and Megan, you will be one of those fanciers who people look up to.


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## Jack Garcia

thekylie said:


> I'm staying away from the elitist part of this.


That's a good idea. In another place and time, there were people banned for calling somebody else an "elitist" but I don't think it was meant as an insult here. I don't mind being insulted honestly as long as the person has legitimate points, and I think the elitist charge has a large grain of truth (although it isn't the whole truth and it lacks context).



Shiprat said:


> I just have to say what an amazingly well conducted debate this is. A real credit to this forum and the members taking part.


I agree.



thekylie said:


> I put a thread up asking for a little bit of information so I can build a map because this conversation has made me curious, and I want to see it laid out graphically because that's' how I understand things the best.


For the best breeders in the country, put a dot on Riverside CA (Karen) and Bristol, TN (Jenny). For the grumpiest and the bitchiest, put a dot on Berea, KY.


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## thekylie

XD, you always make me giggle Jack.

I'm not going to place any based on location. My program will just randomly generate dots based on how many I tell it to put in. I don't want to focus on where the pockets of breeders are, just on the US overall, although I will differentiate by color between the number reported for the AFRMA and the ECMA. I'm interested mostly in population density overall. I hope I can do this. It would be a nice change to map something I wanted to for a change.


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## Megzilla

Aww Matt you think so? ^-^ I have to say though, I'm really enjoying the debates that go on on this forum.

Is the fancy as big in America as it is in england, as in memeber wise. Jack, the clubs you're part of, how many members are a part of them? (I remember reading somewhere you're part of more than one?)


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## Jack Garcia

thekylie said:


> XD, you always make me giggle Jack.
> 
> I'm not going to place any based on location. My program will just randomly generate dots based on how many I tell it to put in. I don't want to focus on where the pockets of breeders are, just on the US overall, although I will differentiate by color between the number reported for the AFRMA and the ECMA. I'm interested mostly in population density overall. I hope I can do this. It would be a nice change to map something I wanted to for a change.


Ah, ok. I thought you were going to put dots where people lived.

There are some of us who are affiliated with both the AFRMA and ECMA so would you list us twice?

I'm thinking about starting a super exclusive mouse club where I am the only member in the world, and everybody is excluded just because they're not me. What a great way to make fun of myself, huh? I'd really do it except that I know some people somewhere would think I was serious. 

EMC (the Elitist Mouse Club) has a nice ring to it, don't you think? :lol:



Megzilla said:


> Aww Matt you think so? ^-^ I have to say though, I'm really enjoying the debates that go on on this forum.
> 
> Is the fancy as big in America as it is in england, as in memeber wise. Jack, the clubs you're part of, how many members are a part of them? (I remember reading somewhere you're part of more than one?)


The US fancy isn't as big member-wise or in density as the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if our density was exponentially (as opposed to linearly) smaller than the UK's because we have so many hundreds of millions of people but only a couple dozen fanciers.

I currently belong to the AFRMA (our oldest and most well-established club) and the ECMA (where I hold office and help finance) and I've belonged to three others, all of which have had short lives and shut down within a couple years.


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## Stina

I agree that geography plays a huge part in things. Those of you in the UK have NO idea what it is like to have literal thousands of miles between one-another. It is difficult with animals with such short lifespans to keep lines true and well bred when it is nearly impossible to transfer animals easily. We don't have unlimited numbers to work with or other fanciers nearby and if we aren't choosey in who our good stock goes to, we could lose varieties all together....or at least the quality of the varieties. I have no problem with giving animals to new fanciers, and I absolutely will....but if someone wants something I'd rather find a way to get to one of the few sI really know well and trust, I need to get to know them first... As far as arranging a train to transfer something....I wouldn't necessarily know any of the people in the middle well at all....and that can be scary! How can you trust people you barely or don't know at all and may have never met?


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## thekylie

Jack: XD XD XD That would be hilarious. And all of your mice would be default champions! I personally think you should change your prefix from JACK to EMC and just never explain it to anyone.

You would know this. Does the AFRMA publish a list to their members of other members? The NMC does a registry thing and I was wondering if they did anything similar. Ideally I would only count everyone once, but that would depend on me getting a list of AFRMA members to compare the ECMA list to. I don't want to come off as a creepy stalker. I just want to try to get as accurate of data as possible.

The cool thing is once it's in the map I can run all sorts of statistics on it.


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## Jack Garcia

There are lists of members in the member directory, but I know that both Karen (afrma at afrma.org) and Jenny (whiskersntailsmousery at yahoo.com) can help out with sharing as much of the demographic details as possible. It's not creepy to ask about if you explain why you're doing it.  I think the results would make an interesting article for the ECMA's newsletter.



Stina said:


> I agree that geography plays a huge part in things. Those of you in the UK have NO idea what it is like to have literal thousands of miles between one-another. It is difficult with animals with such short lifespans to keep lines true and well bred when it is nearly impossible to transfer animals easily. We don't have unlimited numbers to work with or other fanciers nearby and if we aren't choosey in who our good stock goes to, we could lose varieties all together....or at least the quality of the varieties. I have no problem with giving animals to new fanciers, and I absolutely will....but if someone wants something I'd rather find a way to get to one of the few sI really know well and trust, I need to get to know them first... As far as arranging a train to transfer something....I wouldn't necessarily know any of the people in the middle well at all....and that can be scary! How can you trust people you barely or don't know at all and may have never met?


You said it so much more succinctly and accurately than I can. I really like this reply! 

(P.S. I'm gonna be away for most or all of this weekend and part of next week. I'd love for this conversation to continue in my absence, though. Some fascinating stuff here!)


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## bethmccallister

Supply x Demand x Proximity = Desperate US breeders...I'll quit complaining about my plight now...I am finally getting to a show


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## m137b

For the Uk breeders, I have a question, do you have month long mandatory quarantees before and after each show? This was a new concept to me, and I question the effect it has on the fancy, in reducing the number of potential shows, and attendance at these shows.

I think there is no main problem with the american fancy, but rather it lies in several areas. Some self inflicted, some due to location. But the lack of shows, and the fact that any newcomer is view with distrust contributes to it.

I can't speak to my willingness to distribute my mice, since mine are substandard, but I've helped dozens fo new rabbit fanciers start out and regularly give my best young animals to these beginners to get them started. I'd rather get beaten by someone who did wonderful things with animals from my lines, than continue to win knowing I hindered the level of my competition.


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## WillowDragon

Hmmm Jack, I don't know about US mice being able to outstrip British mice at a show!! Phils Blacks would kill yours, and Jenny has some stunner PEW's but Heather's mice would kick thier arses!! Not to mention a fair few other PEW breeders too! LMAO!!  Can't comment on Karen's as I never seen them.

My mice, now you would definately beat my mice.

I wasn't gonna comment in this thread, but Oh go on then!! I have given mice to people I had never until I gave them to them! I have accepted mice from people I have never met to this day...I reckon if i'm lucky I might be able to convince Phil to part with some of his Blacks one day next year, and he hasn't met me yet!! hehe

You yourself Jack, accepted delivery from a man you have never met. If he had been as untrustworthy as what your making yourself sound, then you never would have got the mice you are so proud of! (How are the Argente Cremes coming on by the way?)

To me, as an observer from the outside, your mouse fancy in the US, reminds me greatly of the rat fancy here, very clicky, untrustworthy and as Phil said, elitest.

And honestly, the only reason I got into the exhibition of mice, is because over here, the mouse fancy is a community that welcomes, encourages and supports newbies like myself!


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## salemouse

This was an interesting conversation...however, I think its starting to turn into a team england vs team america sort of thing. I know I'm just in this for the love of it, I am not competitive at all. I certainly do not start arguments, and in all honesty I hardly look at where the people I am talking to are from. 
There are fundamental differences, however as a bit of a wall flower on many multicultural websites I have seen both sides,(and many others lol) people from both fancys, get involved with pety drama. :/ The only difference seems to be in the way the discontent or anger is expressed. I feel like, and correct me if I am wrong, Americans tend to be more blunt and more inclined to wound while English people have a tendency to politely yet no less insultingly get their words out. I dont know, maybe thats a little too stereotypical. The point is that this conversation brought to head a large amount of differences which I find supremely interesting and didnt turn into a total combat zone (although i feel like there was a bit of hidden fire lol) which was really cool, most of the time conversations like these go a little something like this;
"No! its better the way my country does it!" "no mine!" It gets ugly.


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## Stina

Jack wasn't talking about his or jenny's mice rivaling UK mice, he was talking about Karen Robbin's mice in CA.

There are certainly people I would not have to meet before giving mice to them....but that doesn't mean I wouldn't know anything about them.


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## Seawatch Stud

If some of you actually took on board some of the things said here by people who manage their clubs and show successfully, rather than (as usual) feeling the need to argue with everything thats been said, you may be able to address some of the issues you and your clubs face. I wish the American fancy, and fanciers the best of luck for the future.


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## Stina

That seems very condescending to me....

Have you ever had to deal with other fanciers ONLY being HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of miles from you? The US fancy is not the same as the UK fancy...period. It never will be and it CAN'T be....we don't have the numbers or proximity to one another for it to be even close to possible. I don't know how anyone in the UK can argue what we in the US should/can do when they have never spent time in the fancy here. I'm sorry, but I really don't think anyone should be criticizing what they don't know anything about.


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## Seawatch Stud

I have sent mice all over Europe inc Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, Finland, Sweden. I have even sent mice to the U.S. I know EXACTLY what I am talking about. The post asked if mouse trains were a good idea, and obviously they are. All the mice I have sent to people HUNDREDS and even THOUSANDS of miles away have been sent using mouse trains, with the mice going through the hands of many people (none of whom I know) to get the mice to where they are wanted. I don't impose a lot of short sighted self important rules on the distribution of those mice. I assume people are genuine unless I have good reson not to. I repeat what I said before, if you argued less and listened more you may learn something worthwhile.


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## SarahC

It can't only be a case of distance,Willow is spot on with the U.K rat fancy,they are notorious and yet the two fancies were once one.I always opt for trusting someone ,that said if they let me down or rob me I never forget and nothing else would be forth coming two decades down the line.I loaned you Jack, my colour inheritance in fancy mice book.The book is precious to me.I trusted you and I'm pleased to say my trust was well placed.I have sent off my money to Stina for the calanders,I don't know her but I trust her.You are both a very long way off.I don't know that I will send any more mice overseas.I don't charge for them,it's just to help other fanciers.Now that we have all these forums available and I have browsed quite a few I was dismayed to see that instead of unity and helping each other,in some cases the knives are out and people just want to run others stock down.I would hate to see my animals being run down if I had supplied not only them but my time and effort.


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## The Village Mousery

haha sadly i've seen this in horse breeding, I've had alot of hands on experiance with mouse trains i organised 2 this year, one that went down from scotland to the north east and the second coming up the country from berkshire in the south this involed hundreds if not thousands of miles and alot of breeders played there parts, mice in both trains where passed hands over 3 to 4 times to keep costs down. I'm sorry the problem in the US is not geography no matter how much you try to insure us it is, The problem is trust! the people in the trains i organised where all unknown to me Oynx, Kallan, Miss understood, Shiprat, Phil Arnold, and Megan all are on this forum yes but still i've had no contact with these people before the train. I trusted these people and in turn made new friends in the fancy and got myself new stock. I'm seeing it from the outside, in US all these silly rules you make for each other and your mice is choking the life out of your fancy. One of the most laughable one's i saw was some of you who would give out mice and tell them the rules are not to breed them a sort of fostering for mice. Trust is the hard thing to put right and how about spreading some out there and you'll get some in return i mean come on they are mice not diamond rings, so you lose some mice to a untrustworthy person tut tut shame on them but give it 6 weeks and you can pop in the doe with the buck again and replace those lost easyly. Just do it smart and keep your stock lvls up and its not really the end of the world. On the larger scale my mother in law breeds Dales pony's, there club has some of the same problems with breeders not willing to share stock wanting to keep there lines to themselves, Elitism in its finest. In some cases i think in both horse's and Mice breeders like the idea of having the best they think its some victory when they have no challagers, when there stock is way above everyone elses, i myself dont see any victory there whats the point if you win all the time because you've distroyed the hobbie itself and evntually the hobbie will die out and you'll be left all alone up there on your pedistal. I'm so pleased to say that this isnt the case in the english mouse fancy, Please for love of the hobbie dont allow yourselves to fall into this hole share the good mice, pass on your advice and pass on the passion for mouse breeding before its too late. Please note this is my opinion and i'm intitled to it. this is not directed to anyone and not offence is ment to anyone at all.


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## m137b

Artuntaure said:


> mice not diamond rings, so you lose some mice to a untrustworthy person tut tut shame on them but give it 6 weeks and you can pop in the doe with the buck again and replace those lost easyly. Just do it smart and keep your stock lvls up and its not really the end of the world.


Well said :clap .


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## Loganberry

Seawatch Stud said:


> I think its much more about attitude of mind than distance or any other criteria. I think you are elitist and have failed to understand the simple principles that underpin the Mouse fancy in other countries. If you were more inclusive and welcoming in your approach to people who want mice you may discover the next big thing in the American fancy is the person you wont arrange a mouse train for. I would happily risk good stock to find new fanciers to carry the flag. I give away winning stock all the time, and the truth is thats the price you have to pay to find the few diamonds out there waiting to become top fanciers. This is where we differ, and why we have a healthy and productive fancy and you don't. Sorry but there it is.


Trust is a given over here in the UK. You give someone some good mice to start out with, no matter where or who they are and how many unknown hands the mice need to pass through to get to them (Phil is always giving top mice to new fanciers, including me, and excellent advice on keeping them - his advice meant i was able to start winning, so i owe him everything) and if those new fanciers do well and seem to be focused, you give them more and see what they do. Americans, perhaps because of your litigious society, are constantly having a go at each other - especially on here. It's bitchy, smug and irritating. No wonder you don't trust each other to deliver a few mice.


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## Stina

Most of us have good reason not to trust people we don't know at all. I will try to trust those I get to know a bit (and no, it doesn't have to be in person...and I have given animals to people who've never had any rodents at all before) or those whom are trusted by people I already trust...but I won't trust anyone that I don't know at all or know anything of...and most mouse trains in this country would involve people who's names I'd never even heard. I personally would have no problem with a mouse train of people I know (or know others trust).

I have to admit that I am pretty offended by the prejudiced stereotypes being laid out of Americans and American mouse fanciers...


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## SarahC

I don't understand the non trusting part when it comes to mice but equally I have no interest in offending either,so I've said my bit and I'm bowing out .


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## Stina

When you've had as many or more people break your trust than keep it, you start to lose faith in trusting people.


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## The Village Mousery

If thats the case why even bother if the american Mouse fancy is so full of rogue's and theives and low lifes i wouldnt even bother.... If the clubs allow these sort into their clubs i'd just let it die out.


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## moustress

I don't think individuals are vetted at all in the US as far as character or reliability. In England, you probably know each other for years, if not decades, and don't need vetting. I trusted Barb at Funmouse to bring me my tris from Rodentfest three plus years ago, but then, she was a known breeder with a website. I didn't personally know her before arriving at her doorstep to pick up my meeces. Maybe I just have a higher opinion of my fellow mousers and implicitly trust that folks will be good.

On the other hand, having meeces flown in from California did not work out well, and that was a very well known established breeder of show quality meeces.


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## WoodWitch

moustress said:


> I don't think individuals are vetted at all in the US as far as character or reliability. In England, you probably know each other for years, if not decades, and don't need vetting.


With all due respect, that's not right.

Yes, the NMC has been around for a long time indeed. 
Its longterm members are well aquainted and would, of course, trade mice and train mice up and down the country with no qualms, but....... everyone must start somewhere.

We must all be new at some time, and without the help and kindness and TRUST of our peers and mentors, there will never be any new club members or good competition.

I'm very trusting of people until they prove otherwise.

I've done favours myself for people on this very forum without first meeting them. 
When a lady on here wanted mice from me and could not manage to travel all the way to where I live, I travelled half way to meet her, at my own expense and gave her mice for free. 
I am just happy to spread the mousey love.

The lady in I mentioned has proven to be just as accomodating of other people who would like _her mice_ and I am happy to call that lady a friend now.

Likewise, I have been shown overwhelming kindness from my own peers and mentors of the club.....and I would hope I can do the same for others.

*It's simple........kindness breeds kindness, mistrust breeds mistrust!*


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## Stina

It's not a problem with everyone....its just enough of a problem for us to be wary of where our animals go. I don't trust "people" as a whole, honestly...but it is pretty easy for most individuals to gain my trust. A large part of my enjoyment in mice is sharing it with others....but that doesn't mean I have to give them away to, or let them pass through the hands of, _any _person who asks. I care about my mice; they are living things, and they don't have any options in what happens to themselves....why should I risk their wellbeing by giving them to someone I know nothing about?


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## WillowDragon

Honestly, I would rather a person show genuine interest in mice before I sell/give mine away. But even so, I take a gamble everytime I have given mice away. For me, and for this fancy, it is worth the risk.

So you trust only a select few Stina, and you give away mice only to those select few whom you trust, and they do the same. I believe that is known as a clique. And believe me, as someone who has been on the outside of a few of those in my time... they are not nice, they are intimidating and it is very easy to be put off a hobby just by thinking about having to attempt to break into one of those.

Do you have an 'adoption questionaire' for your mice then? I was made to fill one of those out once when I enquired after some rats, but I did it. And then was told that this girl was 'worried' because the rats I already owned were of pet shop origin and she didn't want me breeding her rats to them!! Well i'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, once you sell an animal, it is no longer yours and you have no right to tell me what to do with that animal!
As fate would have it, funnily enough, I did not get rats from her.

I have met people in real life from this forum who I was convinced were going to intimidate the life out of me, but I can honestly say, I have always been treated well, as an equal and welcomed so warmly that I don't think I will ever truely leave this fancy... even if one day I no longer have mice for whatever reason, I think I will still be part of this community and go to shows.

Just from what I have seen on this forum, the US forum and facebook... it sounds like your US fancy would just wear me down!
Jack, I love you, you know I do, though sometimes I wonder why!! LOL But lets face it... the only reason you ever took to liking me on the other forum is because I have fabulous english mice!

W xx


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## thekylie

I like how Jack started this discussion and in all fairness I believe his policies are the exception rather than the rule. I think Jack HIMSELF is an exception rather than the rule in the whole US fancy and he's either loved or hated for it. Other than him I haven't heard of anyone who wouldn't train mice, or be willing to ship them. The main thing I notice is if someone is inquiring about mice, at least with the ECMA, they are encouraged to join the forum or to discuss with the breeders so that they can start to get an idea of who they are dealing with. The only reason I have my mice is because of a train, and from what I've noticed, most breeders are NOT that unfriendly. As a newbie you just have to go in with the attitude that you are there to learn and not that you know it all already. That is the only time I've seen anyone unfriendly to new mice people. There are a few select situations and people that aren't friendly with specific others, but it seems like that tends to be about a personal situation. Again, the drama just gets more attention. You don't hear so much about the breeders who are shipping mice to people in the huge amount of mouse "no man's land" the US has, trying to jump start some interest there, or about trains that get mice from New York down to Georgia (literally 1000 miles one way, a little longer than all the figures I found quoting the distance of the whole UK from north to south), to which I owe my mice, or the 4 breeders that are helping me get stock to and from the show we are set to have, only one of which I have ever met, because I can't go personally. Stina is entrusting me with a mouse and she has never met me in person, as are 2 other breeders. They are doing it knowing full well that I am a novice breeder and they are doing it to help me get started, and they helped the breeder closest to me to get started to. There are a LOT of really helpful people in this fancy, and once I got over my personal fear and started talking to them I found it to be a very welcoming place. I'm not saying there aren't bad apples or abrasive personalties. There are. I just feel like you guys see them a lot more.

And geography is a factor. It can't be ignored. Just like the lack of trust is a factor. That can't be ignored either. And a lot of clubs have died out in the last few years. We actually seem to be going through a time of renewal where new breeders are starting to come up, because we have lost what breeders we had in huge stretches of the US. I haven't seen anything but help offered to those new breeders, as long as they are willing to put in work and aren't rude. There ARE rude members in our fancy. And there ARE misunderstandings and hurtful things that are said. But there is a lot more encouragement and fun then we are being painted to have. And I do consider many people I've met though mice my friends, or at least "people with the potential to be friends if we were able to hang out not on the internet" lol.

And I know rats are more popular in the US than mice are. I don't know anything about how closed the fancy here is. It would be interesting if the rat fancy was more open and the mouse was more closed here.

We have a lot of factors against us. Geography, infrequent shows, few breeders with huge distances between them (I think the average distance from breeder to breeder is around 5 hours, and that's if you're lucky), a huge lack of show worthy stock vs pet stock, the fact the English Fancy existed for at least 60 years before the first US club was started. Not all of those are easy to overcome, even if we all loved each other like best friends. You would think we'd try to not have arguments and stuff set us back more, but we're only human. You can't tell me in the entire 100 year plus history of the NMC you've NEVER had a bad breeder, or a nasty personality pop up, and that everybody has always been great, helpful friends. If that is the case, I'll have to look a little bit more seriously into my thoughts of moving to England.


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## Stina

I can barely see anything right now I've been working on building a website since yesterday and my eyes are totally burnt out....but I need to reply to this comment


> So you trust only a select few Stina, and you give away mice only to those select few whom you trust, and they do the same.


...because it isn't true and I NEVER said that. What gave you that idea? I said outright that I have, and will, give mice to people who've never had mice before...I just need to get to know them a bit first (be it online or in person...OR they need to be trusted by someone I trust fully).


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## Seawatch Stud

Stina, I'm not sure how this thread has got to the point where you feel it's a personal attack against you. It isn't and I'm sure that nobody intended you to feel that way. I certainly don't want to upset you, but in trying to defend other fanciers, I think confusion has arisen between what you do and what some others do. The Kylie, You make some intelligent and well put points in relation to the American fancy and the difficulties involved in being a mouser in your country. I have to say, I think this thread has worn itself out. I am not closing the thread but I would urge those who have taken part, or those thinking of adding to it, to think long and hard about it first. In the end we are all mouse fanciers on here, and though we have many different views and approaches to it we all want the same thing in the end, more mouse fanciers.


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## SarahC

thekylie said:


> I think Jack HIMSELF is an exception rather than the rule in the whole US fancy and he's either loved or hated for it. Other than him I haven't heard of anyone who wouldn't train You don't hear so much about the breeders who are shipping mice to people in the huge amount of mouse "no man's land"
> 
> the drama just gets more attention
> 
> We have a lot of factors against us. Geography, infrequent shows, few breeders with huge distances between them (I think the average distance from breeder to breeder is around 5 hours, and that's if you're lucky), a huge lack of show worthy stock vs pet stock, the fact the English Fancy existed for at least 60 years before the first US club was started. You can't tell me in the entire 100 year plus history of the NMC you've NEVER had a bad breeder, or a nasty personality pop up, and that everybody has always been great, helpful friends. If that is the case, I'll have to look a little bit more seriously into my thoughts of moving to England.


I think you cut through and make some great points so I've picked out the ones that made the point to me and also I just wanted to answer that last point.Livestock of any sort is a great magnet for low lives and we get our fair share.We've had two on here that have took money for Maxeys off of people and then not delivered the goods,both joined the club.Of course they are not around now and won't really be able to join back up in future.So don't bother moving here,people are people wherever they hail from.


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## Jack Garcia

Wow, this thread certainly grew in the couple days I was away! 



WillowDragon said:


> Hmmm Jack, I don't know about US mice being able to outstrip British mice at a show!! Phils Blacks would kill yours, and Jenny has some stunner PEW's but Heather's mice would kick thier arses!! Not to mention a fair few other PEW breeders too! LMAO!!  Can't comment on Karen's as I never seen them.


I agree with your assessments! I would love the opportunity for Phil to beat me. Wait, that sounds dirty...

Karen's mice are the ones I was referring to, though. In addition to being one of the smartest and best mouse breeders in the world, she's also one of the kindest and diplomatic people you'll ever come across, being wise enough not to get involved on mouse forums (and thus you usually don't see her phenomenal mice on the Internet). I would pay real money to see Karen compete against the likes of Phil and Heather. 

My argente cremes are good. You have a good point that I received the mice from a man I never met, yet the differences are that he was on another continent, not three or four states away, and also that we have many mutual friends, who have met. Also, we talk on the phone and we both have or at the time were working on professional degrees (this is something that matters a lot to me, as it shows a person can think critically and objectively and also shows that they have the means and discipline to stick to something long-term). I'm on a breeding hiatus while I prepare to move (moving is in a couple days--I'm insanely busy), so I'm frustrated that I didn't plan any argente creme litters for this part of the year, but that's my issue, not the mice's!



thekylie said:


> I like how Jack started this discussion and in all fairness I believe his policies are the exception rather than the rule. I think Jack HIMSELF is an exception rather than the rule in the whole US fancy and he's either loved or hated for it. Other than him I haven't heard of anyone who wouldn't train mice, or be willing to ship them.


You're right that I'm polarizing, but wrong that I'm the only exception (except for the fact that I'm male and there are only a couple of us in the whole USA). For what it's worth, some first-class breeders in California also refuse to do trains, and they refuse to ship mice as well. People think of California and automatically think of Karen, and while she is an excellent breeder and excellent public spokesperson for mice, there are other folks involved out West, too. I always feel uncomfortable "naming names" when the people being named don't take a very active public role in the mouse world, but I will PM anybody who needs to know for whatever reason. Because we're so far spread out, people think of mouse breeders as being the ones they know online, but there are more than a few others who are not involved at all on the Internet. There are a couple of folks whose mice I'd kill to have, who don't even have a website! The only way you'd know they exist is by word-of-mouth or running into them at a show. I've long wondered if this isn't a better way to do things, myself.

I will ship mice, by the way (not sure if you were implying that I don't). Shipping is much faster and much safer than training a mouse. The only downside is that it's more expensive, but if you want nice things in life (including mice), you have to make a decision to spend money. The mice themselves are always free but it's the shipping itself which incurs costs (both in terms of time and money).


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## thekylie

Well my experience is in the just on the forums, so my statement was true for me. I HAVEN'T heard of another breeder that won't train!  I'm sure there are more, but again, probably not the majority of breeders overall. And I wasn't implying that you don't ship either. I'm not always the best at explaining myself especially when I'm posting while distracted by 3 other things lol. And I'm one of the people who think you are awesome, btw, so I hope no offense was taken at the statement about you being polarizing. I think it's more you tend to have higher standards than most (but not all) of the breeders I've come across on some of the US based forums, which is why you are an exception.


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## Jack Garcia

How many rodent shows have you actually been to, I wonder? That would definitely color your view as to the people who attend and whether or not they do mouse trains! I thought you had been to exactly zero, but I might be thinking of someone else. I've been so busy lately I can't remember! I wouldn't worry about offending me, though. I'm offended by very little.



> I think it's more you tend to have higher standards than most (but not all) of the breeders I've come across on some of the US based forums, which is why you are an exception.


Those folks you've come across on the Internet are themselves a minority of the number of mouse breeders (especially since the forums in the US are fractured along sociopolitical lines with some overlap). Your population sample is thus inadequate to support any such conclusions as those you have already made. The people you come across on US-based forums are unfortunately sometimes not the easiest to make conclusions about what represents "most US mouse breeders."

Imagine that I went to four dog forums in random places on the Internet, asked them all if they fed X brand of dog food, and then reported back that what I found was representative of the entire population of US dog owners. The results are interesting, but the methodology is fatally flawed. I could not properly say that a person who fed brand Y was an exception because the sample  compared to the population (N) was under-representative. This doesn't even take into account that there would be people who didn't answer, people who lied or didn't know, people who misunderstood the question, and so on.

Unfortunately, on issues of policy and practice, there doesn't seem to be an obvious way to gather this kind of information in a way which would be applicable to the entire US mouse breeder population because (as seems to be a theme of this thread) we are so thinly spread out and bickerative (I just made that word up!).

I know you haven't thought this through to this level, and my head is in research mode, so I'm sorry for being confusing and tired. 

(P.S. Here's hoping you have a wonderful time at the show this weekend and be sure to take lots of pictures!  )


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