# Litters from three sisters in group cage



## moustress

These girls in a big plexi tank got caught by one of two tri 'posers' that switched from female to male. It seems to have worked out well enough. An unremarkable grouping of pinkies and fuzzies but a nice example of a communal nest. There are a couple of tri marked or splashed in the litters.


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## Rhasputin

Make sure those pinkies are getting enough food! 
It's hard for them to fight for nipples against the bigger babies.


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## moustress

All three mothers are tending to feeding, and the pinkies have milk bellies. I suspect a couple of the aunties of feeding as well as they have distinct bare circles around their nipples.


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## Jack Garcia

When it became clear that they weren't going to litter at the same time, why didn't you separate them?


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## moustress

I think the thread title says it all. But I'll 'splain it to you. These are all related females; mother, daughters, babies; I think it's OK, and I like to see natural mousie behavior. And I've found moving gravid females can result in miscarriage or premature births.


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## Jack Garcia

The problem with that is that breeding mice in captivity is about as far from natural breeding activity (and natural selection) as possible and the fancier has to make decisions that mice in the wild would not have to. There are differing confounding variables that must be taken into account. For example:in the wild, a communal litter would not have as many babies as a communal nest in captivity due to natural deaths, predation, and so forth. Every person makes slightly different decisions as to the care of their mice, and within reason those decisions and the autonomy they imply must be respected, so I'm curious as to why you chose to let them litter together knowing they weren't close in pregnancy.

If simply moving a pregnant female results in miscarriage, she probably shouldn't be bred from in the first place since how a mouse does in pregnancy is often inheritable. Whether breeding for pets, feeders, or show, breeding resilient mice who can happily adjust to being moved a few days before pregnancy and still do well is a good thing.


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## moustress

Go do what you do.


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## Jack Garcia

Wait a minute, are we looking at three litters or two?


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## moustress

There are three litters of about four each. There's more than enough nipples between the three mothers to go around.And as to the rest, I think I know my mousies well enough to choose the correct treatment for pregnant does, thank you very much. For a doe whose never been housed alone it would be traumatic to suddenly be alone; I suppose I could hae put a pregnant doe in with one of the others who was not carrying, but I didn't, and don't , see the need for that.


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## Rhasputin

I see nothing wrong with the litters being together. As long as you keep an eye on them, and make sure they're healthy, there should be no problems.


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## Autumn2005

I heard somewhere that if mice kept in who have litters at different times will eat the smaller babies??? This isn't true? Believe it or not, I've had nightmares about making sure my pregnant does were not giving birth together, and suddenly a weight it lifted!


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## Jack Garcia

It isn't always true, but sometimes it does happen if the age-gap is too-far spaced out. It depends on the individual mice.


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## moustress

These does are all very protective of the babies; I had a hard time getting pictures because they all run to the nest when I take the lid off. This is pretty typical in tanks where you have the mother and her daughters; they all act like the litter(s) is theirs. the only thing that I sometimes see is a non-nursing doe stealing some babies to make her own nest. If I saw that happening I'd remove the ones who weren't mothers. That isn't happening in this tank.


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## Autumn2005

So long as the age gap is not too big, and the mice get along with before they were bred, they'll probably be good together?


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## Jack Garcia

Yep, probably.


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## Rhasputin

Is there a rex baby in there too? -squint-


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## moustress

There is indeed a curly in the litter; I never breed for any kinds of curliness, so I don't know just what kind it is. I have been a number of them since I started using Adamant as my main tri stud.

The larger babies were born larger than most of the babies born in my mousery in the last few months. Interesting as I wasn't looking for pregnancies, so the does all got the standard diet ( I guess my standard diet is pretty good...). The litters were small so I really didn't notice anything until the first litter was born. The second doe gave birth two days later, and then the third about four or five days later. the second doe looked a little pudgy before delivery, but the third didn't show at all.


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## Rhasputin

Shame you live on the other side of the country! 
I'd be pretty interested in that little curly critter.


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## Jack Garcia

She looks rex, but if neither parent is rex, she cannot be (rex is dominant). Both parents are standard, or am I mis-remembering?


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## Rhasputin

What about caracul, then?


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## moustress

How I wish there were other breeders in my area.

I always try to do my breeding with at least two timed to throw at about the same time so I can foster babies if one has a really big litter, or if something else goes wrong. The welfare of the babies comes second only to the welfare of the does. If a litter doesn't make it, I always try again with that doe, at least once more. Losing a doe is a real tragedy for me.

As far as the curly baby goes, it may end up looking like the yellow buck that had what looked like (and still does to some extent) aby rosettes on it's rear end. He's nearly full grown now, and still has faint traces of the ridges on the rear. I don't know much at all about the different kinds of curly and frizzy genes. That yellow boy is the first healthy looking mouse with curls I have ever seen in my mousery.


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## Jack Garcia

There are at least three kinds of curly coats that are seen in the US:

Rex/Caracul: This variety is dominant and the curls show best under 6-8 weeks of age.
Fuzzy: This variety is recessive and the curls show all throughout life, at least somewhat. Good examples resemble velcro.
Frizzy: The least-noticeable of the three, is recessive and either A) not very common or B) not very noticeable


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## nuedaimice

Casey, here is some information about a few of the genes found currently in the US hobby that cause a curly coat. There are many, many more genes besides these, though.

Rex gene: http://www.informatics.jax.org/javawi2/servlet/WIFetch?page=markerDetail&key=12848
Caracul gene: http://www.informatics.jax.org/javawi2/servlet/WIFetch?page=markerDetail&key=47297
Frizzy gene: http://www.informatics.jax.org/javawi2/servlet/WIFetch?page=markerDetail&key=60540
Fuzzy gene: http://www.informatics.jax.org/javawi2/servlet/WIFetch?page=markerDetail&key=80870


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## moustress

Thanks.


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## flutterbybutterfly

I have always bred mice in colonies or family groups, at least a pair of females together and have had as many as 6 females together, i dont like the idea of a mouse on its own and i have never had a single problem of babies going without food or females culling other litters or anything, if anything, i found the more females there were, the fatter the babies were because they all got fed my lots of females. If there were too many babies i might cull the litter down slightly but not that often.

I just cant like the idea of a poor mousy being on its own  my pregnant females were always used to being moved about and that never caused any problems either really, mice are seriously easy to look after compared to other rodent species! Syrians, bah, even look at the litter before a couple of weeks and she culls the whole lot!


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## moustress

When one is breeding for a specific outcome, having just one doe by herself just works better a lot of the time. Instead, my frequent habit is to leave the buck in with the doe, if he's already proven to be a good helpmate. Both Adamant and Nibbles, my two tri studs, have helped raise multiple litters.

Yeah, I know the doe sometimes gets pregnant again right away; it's my opinion that with good nutritional support there's no problem.


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## moustress

New pix of these babies. I'm very pleased with these little ones. They are nice and big, with long, strong tails. wouldn't it be nice if those neat rows of curls on a couple of them would stay like that! And, for those who were concerned, I have been checking on the littlest ones, and they are being well fed, and are growing nice and long, with fur starting to show. I wish I'd had my camera ready; They were all lined up with each of the little ones between two larger ones.


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## WNTMousery

Aww they're so skinny.


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## moustress

Whaddya mean by that? I think they look fine.


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## Bryana

How do you keep track of who is out of who? That is a big pile of babies!


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## Rhasputin

She puts sticky notes on their butts to keep track of who is who.


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## nuedaimice

Or she writes on their tail with a sharpie like the rest of us. LOL

Or maybe she just knows her mice so well, she can tell the babies apart. Some people do that, handle their mice a lot. Its weird, I know. :roll:


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## moustress

I don't worry about that since these meeces are all sisters impregnated by the same buck. I know it looks like a lot of babies, but they are from three litters. There are twelve of them.


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## Rhasputin

I do the same thing with my three brindles. They're all sisters, and they all throw exactly the same genes, and I always breed them at the same time, with the same male.


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## Autumn2005

LOL, I just got two tans yesterday, and the only difference between them is one has about 5 more white hairs on the tail than the other... I can't tell them apart unless I look really close.


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## Bryana

It was a genuine question. The snark wasn't needed nuedaimice. Who are you to assume I don't handle my mice often?

Thanks for the answer mousetress.


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## moustress

I get no snark from what she said; be at ease...righto, I'm JUST the one to be be sayin' that, ain't I.


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## flutterbybutterfly

I think its just down to training, time and memory. I have an awful memory, especially short term memory. Lots of it linked to the dyslexia aparently but who cares, i remember or i dont.

But what helped me was working on the farm lol, 800 animals and i learnt to match most names and numbers.

Because I matched a personality to a name, a name to a number, i have always been interested in animal behaviour, start with naming/numbering the bolshy ones,first exploring, the noisey ones, the aggressive ones, anything with a notable feature and then ones that are unaturally shy which makes them stand out too.

I am now able to do the same with my rodents, of three unrealated females, even of the same colour, i just seem to know who's baby is who's. Normally if im after specific colours, i will seperate a pair and add a second female about 2 weeks late so she wont have a litter at the same time or the babies will be easy to seperate. But generally im only breeding for food at the moment and pets are pets, doesnt matter the colours as such.

But either way, its practise and observation, im not a people person but i am a watcher, even at 12 Y/O onwards id sit on benches or cafes just watching people lol. I had a litter of 5 identical black hamsters, 2 male, 3 female but i can tell them apart easily just on behaviour

practise practise practise and take time to notice. All my animals are kept away from the house but litters come home until they are strong enough


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## moustress

I actually understand what you're saying, flutterby. I have a couple hundred meeces, and while they aren't all named, I know each one by sight, know their origins, and their personalities. and I do have a pretty good idea of which of these babies belong to which mother. I love watching family groupings of meeces; sometimes I do nothing but stand and watch a tank like this one for five or ten minutes at a time. And even if I have a good book to read, I usually end up people watching when waiting almost anywhere for anything.

And I do love taking pix of little ones in the first week after their eyes open; their sweet little faces as they learn about eating and playing....*love 'em*.... it's the perfect ending to almost any kind of day.

With no further ado, new pix:


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## Bryana

My mistake if it wasn't meant to be snarky then... that eye roll emoticon made me think twice about the tone of the post. It is hard to translate mood over the internet!

That curly baby is too cute.


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## Jack Garcia

I always have fewer than a hundred mice, but I tell the difference based on the shape of the head and tail. These are things that take a lot of practice to notice, though. That, or I use semi-permanent dye on mice who won't be shown.

The eye-rolling icon can't be interpreted any way other than being snarky when used at someone other than oneself. How else would you interpret it?


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## moustress

I took the icon to be self-referential, in which case it's laughing at one's self, which is a healthy thing.


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## moustress

Thanks! I was tempted to caption all the pix as the little ones were going absolutely bananas over the drid bread crumbs and the bits of slivered almonds. The one pic with the baby leaping over the crowd with it's big old foot sticking out behind it; one can't even tell what they are all after!


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## nuedaimice

Bryana, yes, no snark intended. The eye roll was for the "Its weird, I know." part not the rest of it.

I guess the placement there does read a lot off. I'm sorry for any confusion!  (And I was really talking more to Rhasputin)
-chuckles "sticky notes on the butt"-


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## nuedaimice

moustress said:


> I took the icon to be self-referential, in which case it's laughing at one's self, which is a healthy thing.


Hehe, just saw this. Yes, self-referential. Finally, someone that gets me! LOL

I don't know if that says something bad about me or you, moustress. LOL :lol:


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## Autumn2005

The babies in the first pic, are they long haired as well as satin? They are just gorgeous!


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## Jack Garcia

nuedaimice said:


> moustress said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took the icon to be self-referential, in which case it's laughing at one's self, which is a healthy thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe, just saw this. Yes, self-referential. Finally, someone that gets me! LOL
> 
> I don't know if that says something bad about me or you, moustress. LOL :lol:
Click to expand...

Probably both. :roll:

See how that icon can be used?


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## nuedaimice

> Probably both.
> 
> See how that icon can be used?


Yes, Jack, we get it. As I said above, I'm sorry. It was a bad choice in emoticon and placement. I will try to think before I "smiley" in the future.

It really and truly was NOT my intention to offend anyone.


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## Jack Garcia

Oh, I'm sure it never is! That's just how it can come across (believe me, I know a little something about that).


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## Rhasputin

A sticky note on my butt is the only way I can figure out who I am!  
So I figured it would work for mice.


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## nuedaimice

> A sticky note on my butt is the only way I can figure out who I am!
> So I figured it would work for mice.


Is that what that was? I thought it was a tiny "Kick Me" sign a mouse had placed on your rump! :lol:


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## moustress

The babies in the first pic are probably not long haired; they just got their first full coat of hair in, I think, and it fits like long hair but on a dinky mousie.


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## nuedaimice

She said dinky! Ship! (Where's Rhasputin, she's the only one that will get this)

I like your colony breedings, I have a few lines set-up to be colony bred.


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## moustress

:?:


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## Jack Garcia

Can you please keep potentially hurtful inside-jokes off the forum?


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## nuedaimice

> Can you please keep potentially hurtful inside-jokes off the forum?


Uh, what? How can the word "Ship" be potentially hurtful? Do you have something against Ships?


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## HemlockStud

Do you have something against firetrucks, Jack? :lol:


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## Jack Garcia

It's the nature of inside-jokes themselves. They're personal, between the involved parties and do not translate well over the Internet. As you've seen with the mis-use of emoticons, meaning is very easily misconstrued online. It is good to always be as clear as possible in your meaning, and not deliberately vague--that's all.


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## HemlockStud

Im not even a part of the inside joke and I fully understand it...


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## Rhasputin




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## Jack Garcia

Cute rabbit!


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## nuedaimice

Firetruck, exactly, Steven! LOL


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## Rhasputin

Donkey!


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## HemlockStud

Rhasputin said:


> Donkey!


What did you say about Allison?


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## nuedaimice

> What did you say about Allison?


LOL... Ok, ok, lets not hijack moustress's thread. Sorry, moustress, your babies are so cute!

Jack, if you want in on the joke, I'd be happy to tell you. It was just some road trip humor. Do you want the long version or the abridged version?


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## HemlockStud

Oh yes, sorry moustress!

(Im still drooling over some of your tri bubs!)


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## moustress

I don'[t mind feeling clueless and left out, as long as you spell my name correctly.


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## SarahC

Lovely babies and look bright and healthy.Snark is a brand new word to me but there you go,it is easy to put your self across wrongly on forums.


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## Jack Garcia

SarahC said:


> Lovely babies and look bright and healthy.Snark is a brand new word to me but there you go,it is easy to put your self across wrongly on forums.


It really is! And I've found that out of every mouse lover I've met in person, nearly all of them are extraordinarily kind, agreeable, and friendly. There's just something about the impersonal, subjective nature of the Internet that allows people to come across as more mean, cold, and _snarky_ than they would otherwise mean to "in real life." This phenomenon is unfortunate, because the Internet has, by and large, brought us all closer together in most other ways.



moustress said:


> I don'[t mind feeling clueless and left out, as long as you spell my name correctly.


I know I for one am guilty of this and I'm sorry. It is Louie, right? Or is there an "s" in there somewhere? I always forget since there are so many variations of "Lou/Louise/Lois." At least I usually remember to take the "e" away in "moustress" these days! Give credit where it is due, now!


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## moustress

It is 'Louie' without an 's' in it.


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## WoodWitch

Louie? :shock: :shock:

I thought you were Lois, Moustress.
xx


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## moustress

Lois is the legal name; Louie has been my nickname since I was 14 (I'm almost 58). moustress is my screen name (small 'm').


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## WoodWitch

Ooops, sorry, yep small m indeed. It actually bugs me when people do big T for tratallen but I try to keep things in perspective


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## moustress

'sokay.

Anyway, here are some new pix of this unruly bunch of babies. I already took out the males from the two oldest litters.


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## Lottiz

WOW, such a long hair! And such lovely pattern and colours, all i ONE mouse! Me like!!!!


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## moustress

They are wild and crazee looking, that's for sure.


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## Wight Isle Stud

if you have a few does that you are not sure have caught when mated, put they all in the same cage. If one is clearly advanced in preganacy more than the others, you do not move her, but you move the others. Simples, and no problems.


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## moustress

In this case, they are all sisters bred with their father, so I saw no need to separate them. Isn't it amazing how they all pile up like they do when they have 1 1/2 sq feet of cage to romp in?! I think those two and three week old long haired marked tri babies look almost like weird birds with extravagant plumage.


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