# This is Driving me mad.... Constantly Loosing Two week olds+



## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

I have been so busy... Every time I think its okay to settle and start the mouse breeding again, something more happens. So I didn't notice until I was updating my books yesterday, but I've been losing an alarming amount of mice in the two to six week old range, from seemingly the same thing.

The first litter that had a problem lost 80%. And the second. And then since then every single one has lost 50% or more. I keep the numbers down to eight babies per doe or less, so each litter is finishing with three, or two babies. This is my hobby types, my show types... My first rumpwhite litter started at eight and now has four.

They're fine as babies. I take out any that look like they aren't going to thrive, the little runty ones. They get their fur and open their eyes nice and fat... And then all of a sudden they start going skinny. Their abdomens pinch in, and no amount of good food or supplements or extra feeding does any good. None of them ever come back from this point. And there's no warning of it either.

I've noticed no unusual poop, no large amounts of sneezing, nothing untoward until they suddenly get skinny. Its not always the big ones, or a little ones that go. We haven't changed anything. We moved around a bit, but at least two of those litters have taken place entirely in the new mouse room.

So please. What can I try? I keep their mite and louse powdering completely up to date, and sprinkle powder in the bottom of each box that gets cleaned... Aside from that, I just don't know.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't know what it is, but it sounds like a virus to me. Which means you have two choices really; either try and breed through it and keep churning out those mice, or stop all breeding for at least three months. It means you'll have to breed does later than you might like, but mice are fine to breed their first up to eight or nine months old providing they're in good condition. Neither method is a sure thing, but with the first the ones that survive *should* have immunity to it, and with the second method, the virus (which would be carried by the adults but passed on to the kittens) should have died out by the time you breed again. I can't advise you of which route to take unfortunately because I just don't know for sure.

I wish I could be of more help but good luck with it.


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## Megzilla (Oct 12, 2009)

I have heard, and from past experience I found that it's due to not enough genetic variation, I used to line breed a lot when I bred pet types to investigate genetics, and the more I inbred the more this occured. Pups who suffered from it wasted away from 2-3 weeks for about 5 days then they would pass away, unless I culled them first. 
Is it in any particular line of your stock? I had one buck that produced pups like this more than in other litters, maby it's a genetic thing.
...That is if it's a genetic based problem. Outcross a doe who kindled pups with this problem to a totally different buck, and see if that helps


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

I had this thought, but its across ALL of my lines. And my show rumpwhites and hobby mice are completely seperated, so no shared parentage at all.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Also, and I'm not trying to argue or ought, but if it were a virus wouldn't it have passed on through mice that I've sold/given away recently? :/ I haven't had any reports of anything bad happening. A virus does seem to fit best T_T. Won't the immune mice still carry it though?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

It sounds like what I call 'pintail' sydrome which is seen most commonly in satin mousies but casn occur in any litter which is inbred. The little mousie seems fine until around 2 to three weeks old, and then seems to lose vitality, weight, condition. The most obvious sign of this is the tail, in which one can see the individual segments of bone in the tail. I have also seen this in meeces that were dehydrated for whatever reason, like the little orphans I'm caring for. It's due to not being able to digest or process anything in the digestive system, or just from being unfed as with my orphans.

Did you see this thing I speak of happening with the tail? It's a very sad thing to see, and whatever is going on with your meeces, I hope it turns out to be something as easy to fix as this would be.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Some of them yes, but not all. I know the kind that you mean though. :/.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

From experience with rats, I'll chime in that that's about when megacolon started to become a problem for the pups. They'd be fine on milk, then as soon as they were weaning, they just couldn't process solids at all. I was told it was genetic, to eradicate the line. Now that I'm working with mice, I see so many reports that all spotted mice have up to 10% occurrence of megacolon on average, unless it's bred out, even lab strains. Remembering as I do trying to care for these little starving pups whose guts just didn't work right... I understand entirely why it's got you scared.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

All of your litters? Since you started breeding? Or recent litters?

If it is ALL of your litters, i really dont know, it can't be genetic as it effects mice from different breeding backgrounds, it does sound like your mice may well carry a virus that hits the young once they are weaned, but then you would see signs of it outside your mousery.
Where are your mice kept? Have they always been in the same place? It sounds like it could be an enviromental thing, is there any wild mice anywhere that could be passing illnesses on?

If it were me, personally I would cull the lot and start again. Scrub every single thing thoroughly and think about trying to find a different place to keep them. But thats just me.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Its been recentish... Not since the begining, not even the begining of this year.

They were in my room, then the garage, and now they have a section of my study. Like I said we have moved a lot, but the last two litters have had this since we've settled into the new house.

There could be wild mice. I have seen a couple of vague signs but we do have a cat. I'm going to get a live trap and see if anything turns up.

I'm not sure I could bear to do a complete cull, but this is heartbreaking. I lost another juvenile last night, and then I found this one in my rumpwhite box.










She's fluffed up, pinched in the abdomen and is skinny along the tail. But not the pronounced tail beads that pintails get. Next to her healthy sister its very easy to tell, and I doubt she'll see the end of the week even if I don't cull her myself. DX. I might set up an appointment to get her tested at the vet, and cull her just before hand.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Before making the appointment with the vet, make sure you get a list of everything they can test for. Our vet was helpful with necropsies, but the local University's Agri labs were able to test for so much more. A local friend was able to determine through them that the trouble in her line of hairless (rats) was due to a liver abnormality and she was able to breed it out. Also, it was free, while the vet was paid an arm and a leg for zero results.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

If it is recent... then has it started happening since you brought in a new lot of mice? or just one mouse?

it could well be a virus then, if the adults are carrying it, babies are safe from it until weaned, and then it hits them.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Mmm, that's possible yes. In that case I can pinpoint exactly which mice and whom they came from ¬_¬. I'll have to see this litter... and then decide whether to continue.


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

The only PEW i've produced so far from my show buck, and it appears she has pintail  gutted. Not inbred in any way whatsoever, but she does carry satin...


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I've noticed you mention inbreeding in a negative way a few times but it isn't bad, Velvet Meece, in fact it's very good.


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

I know its not bad, i planned to breed her back to her father, but he was bred to a totally unrelated female thats what i meant, and has produced this girl, thats why i'm gutted that she has pintail because she would have made a fine pairing otherwise


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

She may well get over it, I've had mice have pintail for a couple of weeks but grow on fine


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Yeah see, she's a different shape to mine. Mine have a concave abdomen, and she has a fluffy belly. I think?


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

Shes the other sort i hate popping up in litters, shes short and hunched, shes scuffles around like a little gremlin :|


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

VM: That's really odd, I've never seen that on a full grown mousie. It's disturbing, and I hope the mousie improves. The most odd thing about it is that it appears to only affect the part of the tail closest to the body.


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

Shes about 8 weeks old, but still small for that age considering what parents she came from, her siblings are much bigger and it doesn't look like she is going to get much bigger :|


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

I have one of these, she's in the retirement box. I know her as Tiddles XD. She was undernourished as a baby, but she's about eight weeks old and teeny tiny. Normally my runts catch up, but she's still lickle still. But she's made a lovely pet. I wouldn't breed from her though.


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