# Siamese / Sealpoint / Colourpoint?



## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

How do you name the phenotype of the following genotypes (not mentioned alleles are wildtype) ?

a/a ch/ch =
ae/ae ch/ch =
a/a ch/ch d/d =
a/a ce/ch =
a/a ce/ch d/d =
a/a ch/ch sa/sa =

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

a/a ch/ch = Siamese
ae/ae ch/ch = (good) Siamese 
a/a ch/ch d/d = blue point Siamese
a/a ce/ch = unstandardized (color point beige as per Finnmouse)
a/a ce/ch d/d = unstandardized
a/a ch/ch sa/sa = Siamese satin

All of these are with the ECMA.


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## Marjolijn (Jan 1, 2009)

Jack named them all:

a/a ce/ch d/d = unstandardized (color point smoke as per Finnmouse)


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

In England the term 'colourpoint' is not used for ce/ch:

a/a ce/ch = Black eyed seal point Siamese
a/a ce/ch d/d = Black eyed blue point Siamese

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I believe that blue point Siams have black eyes anyway as per NMC standards... or am I remembering wrong?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes, they are standardised as having black eyes, but aa chch dd is definitely a ruby eyed blue point Siamese just like with seal point. I wonder why only aa cech dd is allowed for showing when seal point Siamese can have either? Maybe the ones that were being shown before they were standardised were aa cech dd.

Sarah xxx


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

I still did not get it. For what genotype do you use "Seal Point" ?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

a/a ch/ch

or

ae/ae ch/ch

"Seal point Siamese" and just "Siamese" mean the same thing.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowDragon said:


> I believe that blue point Siams have black eyes anyway as per NMC standards... or am I remembering wrong?


Black eyes are not per the NMC standard.Eye colour = any,regardless of whether they are blue or seal point.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I think a lot of the confusion with pointed varieties in mice has its roots in rats, who have separate genes for pink/red/ruby-eyed pointed varieties and black-eyed pointed varieties. I could be wrong, though (I'm not a rat fancier), and am open to corrections.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

SarahC, it does state black eyes in the blue point Siamese standard and any eye colour in the seal point Siamese standard.

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

states any in my rule book,perhaps your copy of rules and standards is a different one to mine.Maybe it's time I got a new one,I suppose the reality is that they have black eyes any way.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Its says eyes - Black on the NMC website Sarah


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't have a rules and standards book, I never got one. I always look on the website, which is a bit out of date now. Can I ask Anne for one?

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

of course you can,you should have got one when you joined.Anne will be at Harrogate so could bring one in person or post after Christmas.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowDragon said:


> Its says eyes - Black on the NMC website Sarah


 If I was judging I would have a copy of the rules and standards with me with me not the website,thats what it 's for.I might also use it when I am actually assessing the pro s and cons of my own animals that I want to show while I am going through them during feeding/cleaning.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I've got to come back to this.Sarah,I am aghast that you have never had a rules and standards book.It is essential.It gives you how many points each variety is awarded for each characteristic which add up to a maximum of 100.Have you never had this information available 

Dutch
cheek markings,blaze ,colour 20
saddle well up to middle of body 15
undercut 15
stops 5
condition not fat,short and glossy coat 15
shape and carriage 5
ears shape size and position 5
eyes large bold prominent 5
muzzle long strength carried out to end 5
tail long and uniform no kinks 5
total 100 and so on for each variety.You can see from this that the head and colour carries more points
than any other feature,so a good head should be favored above a great set of stops.

Sorry Roland for hijacking,


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Goodness, I NEED that book! I had no idea it had all the points set out like that; I didn't realise that the face markings were the most important part of a Dutch mouse. That's so useful to know for deciding who to enter into a show!

For now I have printed that list out, thank you so much for typing that all out Sarah xx

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

That is interesting!!

I don't suppose you have the points break down for broken marked do you Sarah?


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## SiamMeece (Sep 21, 2010)

Jack Garcia said:


> a/a ch/ch = Siamese
> ae/ae ch/ch = (good) Siamese
> a/a ch/ch d/d = blue point Siamese
> a/a ce/ch = unstandardized (color point beige as per Finnmouse)
> ...


In Holland a/a ce/ch are standardized when shown as dark eyed sealpoint siamese (eyes can be any colour).

ae/ae ch/ch doesn't necessarily make good Siamese. ae/ae can make the points darker, not better. I had plenty of extreme siamese with (partly) pink feet...


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## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

The cheek markings don't carry the most points on a Dutch mouse Sarah, the saddle top and under does. Cheeks are worth 20 pts, the saddle is worth 15pts for the top and the under, making 30 pts. The written standard for Dutch is so complex they publish a diagram of one in the book next to the text. For brokens Willow, 40 pts come from the spots, fifty if you add the nose spot (10pts). All NMC members should recieve a copy of the rules and standards book when they join. Sorry about getting off topic, but it was getting tired anyway!. Oh yeah I forgot add, as Sarah says the standard for Siamese is any eye colour blue or seal point so there you go.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

SiamMeece said:


> ae/ae ch/ch doesn't necessarily make good Siamese. ae/ae can make the points darker, not better. I had plenty of extreme siamese with (partly) pink feet...


This is true. I have, too!


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

SarahY said:


> SarahC, it does state black eyes in the blue point Siamese standard and any eye colour in the seal point Siamese standard.
> 
> Sarah xxx


This will be altered next time the website is updated to bring it in line with rules and standards.


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