# Anemia in banded mice? *New update, Megacolon?*



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

I'd heard it referenced on this site and elsewhere that anemia is/can be prevalent in Banded mice. Has anyone had any experience with this? I only have one female, but this variety interests me, and I might focus on it. I did find an article that talked about it, very briefly. Does anyone have any other signs/symptoms so I can be aware of if it crops up?

http://ko.cwru.edu/docs/rodentcondition.pdf

"Anemia: Anemia can be difficult to
assess in pigmented mice, but observing
the color of the foot pads is a quick, easy
way to estimate anemia. You will be able to
detect an anemic mouse because of the
pallor or paleness of its footpads."


----------



## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I used to breed banded mice and had no problem with anaemia. Mine were the dominant banded gene, and even the charlies were fine health-wise.


----------



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I have only ever heard of it being relevent to variegated breeding?


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

One of the ones was right here on their description page, but if no-ones ever had problems with it, I will take that. : )

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=48&hilit=banded+anemic


----------



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Right, I thought that information was wrong, so I did some quick research. Apparently a particular banded gene (Wbd) can be _slightly_ anaemic, but this is an uncommon gene, and homozygous Wbd produces a capped mouse (pigment only on the head). The common dominant banded is called sashed (Wsh), this does not produce anaemic mice and the homozygous Wsh are called 'charlies', which have pigment on the head and tail base. The recessive banded (belted 'bt') does not produce anaemic mice. So you're probably OK


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Okay. The one I have is from a pet store, so more likely then not is the Wsh, therefore meaning I don't have to worry about the anemia. Where did you find the info, btw? I tried all over here and google. : /


----------



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I found it on Finnmouse.


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Wait, you found banded at a pet store? What luck!


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

@SarahY: Well thanks for the info, I swear I read all over the place, including that site. Maybe I just needed it reworded for me. Thank you!

@Laigaie: Yeah, I'd told myself if I saw anything besides white, I was gonna start messing with mice. It was from the local petco. They get their rodent shipment every other Thursday, so I swing down now every other Friday now to snatch up any nice does. I'd really like some variegated, but I've only seen piebalds. Double Stuff is pretty poor type, and this would be a fun variety to try my hand at tweaking out. I like all the high contrasting types, and that she looks like an oreo makes me want to breed more. : )

On the fancy mice website I was able to find some good info, and also a nice depiction of the ways the gene can be expressed. 
http://www.fancymice.info/whattolookforbanded.htm


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm a little uncertain about this comment from that link:


> When mating, theoretically mice can be balanced in traits, e.g. by mating a mouse with a coloured zip in a certain place to a mouse with a white zip in the same place. However, banded is a dominant gene and a 'standard' banded will only inherit the gene from one parent. That means it will not get opposite characteristics from each parent (which works with brokens).


It seems that this assumes that all modifiers are naturally on the same chromosome as the gene they modify. This is already established to be untrue for the vast majority of modifiers, which can be carried in mice without the gene whose effect they normally modify. Are the modifiers for banded carried on the same chromosome as banded? Cait is obviously a well-respected source, and I honestly know little to nothing about bandeds, but modifiers are a curiosity to me, so I am curious.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Yeah, I still only know basic genetics, I'm kinda a learn as you go type of person... So what I got out of that is that the quote is implying that pairing a mainly white piebald with a mainly black piebald will give you medium black/white piebalds, and that "standard" (which one is standard?) bandeds don't work the same way.

Laigaie, are you saying the piebald modification doesn't work like this, or that the banded does?

*Using piebald because its the only example I could think of.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Also, can anyone tell me what a "zip" is? Google really isn't helping for this one.


----------



## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I'll try and explain my ramblings  When you're breeding, for example, brokens, it is not uncommon advice from more experienced breeders to try and balance out the markings by breeding a lightly marked mouse to a more heavily marked mouse. A broken needs the gene from both parents so this could well be the case - it seems to be that some have anecdotal evidence of this. All I was trying to say was that since a banded has only one banded gene (two produces charlies) that it not inheriting it from both parents so the 'balancing effect' that people refer to wouldn't logically follow. I take your point about modifiers and perhaps I should change the article, as much of the site is from 2003 and I've learned a fair bit since then!

A zip is when either the white pulls into the colour or vice versa. Like having an exaggerated 'v' shape rather than a straight line.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

You're just answering everything, thanks so much! If you can't balance, how do you end up (in my case) shrinking the white band width? Is it something that will naturally occur over time, or does it happen when out crossing to selfs?


----------



## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Statistically in any litter you'll get mice at the median and some with wider bands, some with narrower bands. It will just be selection over time really, then breeding to fix that trait in the line.


----------



## SiamMeece (Sep 21, 2010)

Frizzle said:


> You're just answering everything, thanks so much! If you can't balance, how do you end up (in my case) shrinking the white band width? Is it something that will naturally occur over time, or does it happen when out crossing to selfs?


Not outcrossing but linebreeding may do the trick. Somehow relationship between animals seems to have a positive effect on the markings of an animal whereas being unrelated may completely spoil the markings in the offspring. So if you want to breed a (poor) banded to a self, you may want to use a self coming from a banded litter. You may be surprised within one generation.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Well then its a good thing I saved back a doe self to go with my almost decent looking male. : ) I did just have another litter fathered from the same father, I got some black selfs, and what I'm pretty sure are dove selfs, but I'll have to see when they start to fur out.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Okay, so I wanted some more input with this. In the last batch, I kept back two Charlies, but just past furring out, they both became bloated, their limbs lost condition, and I culled them. I figured it was just a fluke, but I kept more charlies around this time to see. I've got a few litters that just furred/are relativly soon going to open eyes, and once again I've got bloated mice with weakened limbs and a wasted appearance. Only in the Charlies. Which, of the dozen I kept back, only have marking on their faces, no color on their rumps. I'll update later tonight with pictures from then and now, but any ponderings would be great. Thanks!

Okay, I think I have one. Using the mac's at school, learning how to copy paste with their keyboards! This is from the last bunch, the second one who started looking this way. The mother had also stopped cleaning it and the other one, my attempts at warm q/tips didn't really help.


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

That looks like megacolon. By weaning age, the belly of the mouse will expand rapidly, as food impacts in the colon and/or cecum. Because these organs don't function properly, the mouse is unable to digest food properly, and ceases to grow. Megacolon is associated with the recessive spotting gene, and also with some lethal spotting genes that do not appear to exist in the fancy. I had not previously heard about it being associated with banded.

Putting them down is a blessing. If possible, select against the carriers. If that's your entire line, just be vigilant, and put down bloated babies as soon as you can. If left to be, they will fill with food, it will rot, and they will die of sepsis. It is an awful way to die.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Ah shit... Well, here's pics from tonight. I'll have to start selecting against it the next cycle. They don't even have their eyes open, does megacolon start this early? Any reason why it's only affecting the Charlies? My starter was from Petco, so who knows what nasty things she's carrying. Can I expect it to stay with the homozygous form since that's when it's expressed itself?

These ones are all offspring from Waldo, my double striped banded male. Some look okay, but close up inspection reveals that most have the same thing going on.









Here you can see the bloated look through the back.









The general shape of the matter.









The start of the build up.









On the other side of the spectrum, these guys are offpsring from Crisps, my wide single band.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










A close up on the chunkiest.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

*Warning, a bit graphic description but still educational.*

Just wanted to say that today I culled all the affected ones. They'd gotten so bloated that one's stomach split when it hit the floor, and while usually I the mice just pee, these all defecated too, a milky/yellow thick substance. No signs in any of the other littermates, I'm thinking this really is limited to the homozygous bandeds.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

So what i've been able to dredge up pertaining to megacolon has to do with how it has a tendancy to link up with high-white animals. While it's more prevalent in pied mice, it is not specific to any varitey. Some lines it happens more frequently in, and while I can breed the precentage down, I may never entirely be free of it. Any good links? These are what I've found:

http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/megacolon.php
http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_journals/jhered/freepdf/57-29.pdf


----------



## Pamplemousse (Apr 9, 2012)

I once had a charlie rabbit with this. Lived for a year or so but would only eat sloppy food and was chronically constipated, poor thing. I had no idea it occurred in mice.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Hi guys! It's been... almost three months since I was last lingering around here. I guess I've been pretty busy with work/school but missed you all! Can't remember what I last updated everyone with, but I've since downsized from the 5 large sterilite bins, plus single male tanks to two large sterilite bins (adoptable pet mice in one, breeding population in the other) and one single male tank. I completely got rid of the ASFs, the rats, and the pet gps, and I'm no longer breeding for bandeds. What can I say, I've been busy. Instead have completely shifted toward getting the most pigment on the charlies.

Patterns have been interesting, I'd expected more of a pied look, but what I've got I'd almost compare it to variegated. Haven't gotten much pigment on the shoulders, but the faces are pretty consistently two thick patches with a blaze down the middle, and the pigment on the rears are very small spots.

Still haven't gotten rid of the megacolon, which is really what prompted me to come here. Once again, I'm not so sure if that's what it is... After the vast majority of the charlies being afflicted (caked rears, rather swollen bellies) I decided to hold out on culling some of the better looking kits. (thicker tails, better coats, not as much caking) And low and behold, once they make it past 2-3 weeks, their poopy butts clear up, their bellies get better, and they grow up to be full sized adults.

Not to say that happens for all of them. Some of the hold-backs develop poorly, and when their fur grows in it appears curly/wavy, and they remain stunted until I bump them off as well.

Could it just be my charlie's make for really poor mothers and aren't cleaning their kits well? I've had non-charlies nanny with them, and I still have this problem. The only other thing I can think of is that for whatever reason, they see the primarily white mice as having something wrong with them and don't clean them well. But they nurse them just fine? And I had an albino pop up (My big doe had a 25% of carrying cc) but he didn't develop the caked butt. Unless there are degree's of megacolon?

Anywho, that was a really long post, I hope not all of you TL;DR, but I do hope you're all having a wonderful fall!


----------

