# Which variety?



## danniixx (Apr 11, 2009)

I had said I wanted to breed himalayans to show standard. However, I currently have 2 female PEWS, pet store bought but they are healthy, large ears good coat etc can I breed them up to standard if I get a show type buck?


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Hello, If you really want to show and compete and evetnually win you cant really introduce pet line mice into your stock. Some show varieties have been bred for a hundred years to get to the point they are now so its probably something you wouldnt be able to achieve in your life time. However if you want to breed large typy pet mice then introducing show line mice into those lines will work really well.


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## violet1991 (Oct 3, 2008)

easy answer... not really.

It's worth finding some nice show siamese, and some show PEWs, and going from there I think. It's difficult because himis don't breed true.

Vi x


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## danniixx (Apr 11, 2009)

hmm so for my first go at breeding show stock himi wouldnt be the way to go? I wouldnt be showing them properly till next year so Id have a year to get them to a fair standard- whatever I breed. What other varieties would be good for a first timer?


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Maybe PEW?

I started with Rump whites which I've found really difficult but I've made some progress and been able to show a bit although I started breeding blue and blacks recently and have had more success at shows than I have yet to have with the rump whites. Selfs are easier but marked are more rewarding, it depends what you want out of showing. I would recommend picking a variety which you would enjoy seeing every day for the forseeable future.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

danniixx said:


> I had said I wanted to breed himalayans to show standard. However, I currently have 2 female PEWS, pet store bought but they are healthy, large ears good coat etc can I breed them up to standard if I get a show type buck?


No.

That is a sure fire way to make certain you won't win anything with a variety that is already difficult enough. One year is not a long time to perfect your own line of mice even when you start with good stock. If you mix pet stock in you're asking for disaster.


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## violet1991 (Oct 3, 2008)

danniixx said:


> hmm so for my first go at breeding show stock himi wouldnt be the way to go? I wouldnt be showing them properly till next year so Id have a year to get them to a fair standard- whatever I breed. What other varieties would be good for a first timer?


As Cait says, adding pet stock into breeding lines is never going to win you anything in a show.

As I said, if you want to get some even half decent himalayans, you need show stock siamese and show stock PEWs, as it's the cross of these two is what gives you himalayans. No it's not an easy first variety... but if your heart's in it, why not go for it? there isn't really any "good" varieties for a first timer if you ask me. I think realisticly you need to have a long hard think about what variety you are doing, and stick with it. Theres no point in starting on a variety, then have to change later on when your no longer a first timer, the other varieties aren't going to get any "easier" to breed.

sounds rich coming from me, as i wanted to do himalayans, but I am too picky and to get the result I wanted it would have taken years and A LOT of stock, which I don't have the room for, but I would do it if I had the space. (I wanted black pointed ones). Moved onto the Argentes, but they've not bred well for me, and I didn't get enough stock to be able to carry on with what I've got.

Hey ho, we learn from our mistakes.

But it's quite possible you can get show himalayans from good stock of siamese and PEW, so if you love them, go with it. Just don't try be too ambitious like I was! Only do what you have the time and space for.

*gets off soap box*

Vi x


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## danniixx (Apr 11, 2009)

lol yes I'm like that too. Never mind going from a to b its a to z lol  By saying I had a year I didnt just mean to perfect the breed but to obtain aswell as hopefully next year I will be moving to Beverly which would mean I have more chance at attending shows and meeting breeders then I do up here where there is nothing of the sort around lol , I currently have 17 mice (8+ litter) , 5 rats and 2 gerbs lol no space for any type which would be too difficult to breed, like what violet said with having to get good type pew and siamese, I suggested a PEW as I love my little PEWs to pieces but also Obtaining 2 PEW would be all thats required (I think?) and just to make myself clear when I said :

hmm so for my first go at breeding show stock himi wouldnt be the way to go? I wouldnt be showing them properly till next year so Id have a year to get them to a fair standard- whatever I breed. What other varieties would be good for a first timer?

I didnt mean adding my pet lines to it


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

It is usual ro start with at least a trio but preferably two trios of any variety. You would need to keep fewer mice if you chose PEW over himalayan. A small stud of selfs would be about 40 mice, but to compete regularly you'd probably need more.


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## violet1991 (Oct 3, 2008)

danniixx said:


> What other varieties would be good for a first timer?


this is what I was talking about, rather than anything else...

okay...there are varieties that are more readily available from breeders that are more common, and generally, the ones that you can get your hands on tend to be the ones good for first timers because it's easier to find stock. But don't go for something just because your a first timer. What happened to learning? If you like one variety, don't be put off it just because not many people have them, or they're hard to grasp. You can think as hard as you like that you will maybe have them one day when you know about it better..... but by that time you've already worked on one variety that you got as a first timer, and it's a bit of a waste to give them up isn't it?

what I'm saying is, don't ask what is good for a first timer, ask yourself what you personally like, whether they are easy or not

I was trying to avoiding the word easy, because NO variety is "easy". But failed miserably. Hopefully you know what I meant by it though.

Vi x


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## danniixx (Apr 11, 2009)

yeah I see what you mean, and at the moment I dont think Ill be trying anything like it at the moment. One of my little baby bucks has died, the little grey chunky one. Dont know why but possibly because of the heat. They are in my room and the other bucks were quite warm, Ive put my fan on and set it in my mouserys direction. Though the bottom of the bucks rib on one side was caved in, any ideas or is this normal ? I put more info in my dead baby post.


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

ian said:


> Maybe PEW?
> 
> I started with Rump whites which I've found really difficult but I've made some progress and been able to show a bit although I started breeding blue and blacks recently and have had more success at shows than I have yet to have with the rump whites. Selfs are easier but marked are more rewarding, it depends what you want out of showing. I would recommend picking a variety which you would enjoy seeing every day for the forseeable future.


Selfs aren't easier! I think marked are easier - all you have to do is produce millions and wait for a well marked one to pop out, and as long as it's the best marked on the day it wins! Selfs are far more difficult in my opinion. Marked are more down to luck of the draw.


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

True, it is down to a lot of luck at the beginning and good decisions in selecting from the litters.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Loganberry said:


> Selfs aren't easier! I think marked are easier


 ... says the self breeder!  All varieties have their difficulties. You could argue that selfs are easier since you get more showable mice per litter and once you have got your selfs to a certain standard they will keep producing more decent selfs, whereas marked can be back to square one every time. It all depends on how you look at these things. Also, how many marked win BIS compared to selfs??? :shock:


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

The best marked once its won the section will then have to compete against the best self , best satin etc where it will have to excel just the same if it is to win BIS.Very difficult to take the top slot with a marked, the odds will be heavily stacked against it.Competition in the self section will initially be stiffer but having made it through the chances of getting BIS are much greater.


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## danniixx (Apr 11, 2009)

so does that mean that if I decided to breed again and show (the latter I really want to do) a self, although having its difficulties with getting and producing mice of good type as well as colour, overall it can do better then marked because its not judged on markings? just colour and stuff which as was said, will stay good type if the right choices are made with litters?


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

Good points! From a breeding point of view, i think marked are easier, as you have to wait for nature to give you the marking you require and there's not a lot you can do to make it happen. Selfs need loads of work to get them good, but when you're got it, it works brilliantly. Then again, a couple of generations later and you can loose it. Also, selfs are bred for type, whereas marked aren't on the whole, as if you improve the type you loose the markings. This means that on the final table at a show, with all things considered, the best overall mouse wins, and that is usually the self as they have the colour, plus the type, wheras marked tend to mostly have colour and not really the great type. In conclusion, marked are easier to breed, but selfs are easier to win with. In my opinion, of course


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## danniixx (Apr 11, 2009)

hmm so, what is meant by type? My initial idea is that its a large mouse with a tail of the same size so it comes to around 20cm in length, large ears, wide cheeks which taper to a point on the nose but not too fine a taper it cant look like an odd triangle. The mouse has to be healthy with no signs of illness, pregnancy, mites etc or it can be an instant disqualificaltion with having mice with mites particilapting in the show breaking the show guidelines anyway. Eyes must be bright and mouse must have all whiskers. Ears must be shapely with no folds (?) or bits missing. Coat I'm presuming depends on the type of mouse but Im guessing it must have a healthy sheen and the mouse can't look 'unkept'. Hopefully my hours of research have done me well?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

your research sounds fine.You ideally need to get to a few shows and see some winning mice in the flesh.Volunteering to steward gives anyone a really good chance to see the exhibits.It also gives the oppurtunity to speak to mousers with decades of experience who don't participate in forums such as this.


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