# Hand-raising Pinky and the Brain!



## morning-star

As of yesterday I started a project of hand raising two - 7 day old mice, Pinky - a red eyed white doe (though I think she might be having dark points starting to show though on the rump and nose) and Brain - a black eyed splashed buck.

The litter would have been culled down anyway so I figured why not give hand-raising a try.

It took them several feeds to get the hang of suckling on a paintbrush. The feed I am using is Lactol diluted to twice the amount that you would feed a puppy/kitten with about 10% of electrolyte water added.

So far its going well, Pinky is far more energetic than Brain, and both are becoming increasingly clingy to me. They are in a small pet carrier with a heat-mat under it keeping them about 27-28'c, and will be moved into a bigger once they open their eyes and start eating.

My only problems have been I'm not sure how much they are eating, when to stop at times and that they don't poop very often, despite good tummy/gentile rubs after each feed.

I plan to weigh them latter today so I can work out how much they should be eating (its supposed to be 0.05cc per gram of mouse)

They are feeding every 2 hours, and it takes about 20-30 min to feed them each time (its really a labour of love!)

I will get the fiancée to take photos of me feeding them later today as well, but for now heres a photo I took as the start yesterday. 
I will keep you posted on their development.


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## andypandy29us

they are very cute ... good luck with the hand raising


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## BlackDragonfli

Ive always wanted to try this, but would feel awful if something happened to them under my care. Plus working 2 days a week, 10 hour days really wouldnt work .
Beautiful bubs though!! Cant wait to see more updates of progress!


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## morning-star

We tried to take photos but they wiggle too much when feeding so only got blurs!

I uped the electrolyte to 30% or so for now, which has fixed the problem with them not pooping much. 

I figured this would be a good time to try is as I've finished uni and not yet found work.....

I uped the electrolyte to 30% or so for now, which has fixed the problem with them not pooping much.


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## morning-star

Day three - all is going well, (not got more than 2-3 hours sleep last night but hey)

Pulled out the scales last night they weigh; 7g (Brain) and 8g (Pinky) this means they both need around 10-12 suckles on the paint brush (10-12 drops) we worked this out on the theory of;

"A baby should eat .05cc per gram of their body weight per feeding. " - the fun mouse.

so that's about 3.5ml for them currently.

I will weigh them each night and adjust the food as needed.

It's soo cute that they both have individual personalities; Pinky gets very excited at feeding and is throughout the feeding session , whist after a couple of suckles Brain gets very sleepy/lazy fast. 

their belly fur is gown in nicely now and they have teeth starting to come though


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## kit

Haha, their names! It's good to hear that they're doing so well. And I love that you can see their personalities already!


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## morning-star

Photos;
Pinky: 

















Brian: 

















Still doing well if starting too look scruffy for not having a mum to clean them fully, and getting so excited/fidgety when feeding that they get feed over themselves.

They get cleaned off with lightly damp cotton buds after each feed but there's only so much it'll do.


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## Pamplemousse

I like how he's become Brian now :lol:


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## andypandy29us

lol @ pample mouse ...I spotted that but was way to polite to point out the mistake :lol:


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## Pamplemousse

I think he should be The Brian

Anyway, I want him. And pinky. Pinky looks a bit silvery in the latest pics.


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## morning-star

Haha i'm getting about 4 hours broken sleep a night because of these so 'scuse any typos 

I think shes hymilain(spelling?) not white she has some shading on her rump and nose, though its very poor at the moment. The photos dont show it though.


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## BlackDragonfli

Did you steal my meacers? LOL they look identical to my splashed boy and my himmis  too cute!


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## morning-star

hehe!

They are at 11 days old today, they are looking a little small/skinny compared to what normal kits should be at this age, but that's really to be expected.

They are at the hard stage of hand-raising (11-14 days) but they are well hydrated and pee/poop often so I can only hope that they'll ok.

Soon as their eyes open they can start having some soft foods (oats, baby cereal, rye cracker soaked in lactol etc ) and hopefully they will learn to lap up lactol so I can slow down the paintbrush feeding's. It'll be a gradual process but hopefully it'll go well.


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## andypandy29us

lol loving the link ... its ages since ive watched that ... my boys have grown up and left home ... might have to find some episodes and see if my daughter likes them


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## love2read

Try adding some Ensure to their formula. That should help fatten them up.  I've handraised sugar glider joeys on a mix of Ensure and Gatorade and they were fat and healthy!


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## morning-star

love2read said:


> Try adding some Ensure to their formula. That should help fatten them up.  I've handraised sugar glider joeys on a mix of Ensure and Gatorade and they were fat and healthy!


thanks, I've never seen it before but looking it up it looks like a great idea, I'll see if I can find any tomorrow.


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## scrapheapchallenge

they look adorable  I know about the time needed for handraising babies though! I've raised a few species - a foal, an orphean warbler chick, raven chick, and plenty of baby bats (which are way smaller than mice) For the bats I used a small pipette to feed them though, and kitten formula, which they thrived on. Would a pipette not be easier than a paintbrush? I then graduated them onto mealworms (good bat food), starting by dipping the worms in milk formula then squeezing the innards out (you can't be squeamish when it comes to feeding bats mealworm guts lol) eventually as they get bigger they get used to live mealworms and chomp them themselves, but to start with they won't bite a wriggly mealworm!

Kirsty


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## morning-star

aawww bats are wonderful creatures, sounds like you did a wonderful job with them!

I find a paintbrush is working really well as they suckle on it (which is more natural for them) and they can't accidently be fed too much and have it go up their nose/into their lungs.


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## SarahY

I don't really come on here any more, but I felt compelled to post on this thread in case anyone else thought handraising cute little baby mice for no real reason was a good idea and fancied trying it themselves.

I cannot fathom why someone would choose this course of action? This is NOT a preferable option over being left with their dam. Apart from the fact that she is the best at cleaning them and keeping them warm, she will teach them how to behave like mice and her milk contains a lot more than basic nutrition (and BASIC nutrition is all they are getting now) as her milk will contain antibodies necessary for building their immune system and their own antibodies. Those baby mice look skinny and sickly, whereas in the first pictures they were fat and healthy.


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## Cait

I have only just seen this thread and I agree with Sarah. If you wanted the mice to grow up healthy you should have left them with their mother, if not then it would probably have been kinder to cull them. Handrearing should be a last resort, not the first one.


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## Gill

I, too, agree with Sarah. Both babies are obviously suffering from malnutrition, which means that, even if they survive, they will have serious health problems later. The kindest thing to do would be to cull them now.


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## love2read

Morning-star. how are the little ones doing? Any updated pics? Did the Ensure help to fatten them up a bit?


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## morning-star

I have based a lot of my hand-haising around these series of videos;






They are very interesting to watch.

Their mice started off as small and scrawny (they even had problems with bloat and de-hydration at 10-14 days old) but ended up as fat normal healthy mice (the oldest, Stuart, just past lately living to be a grand 21 months old)

I couldn't find any ensure around my way sadly, but they are now 15 days old, eyes opened at 12 and 13 day, they have been nibbling on baby cereal, oats and still on lactol feedings every 2-3 hours.

I will take a photo or two later today, the girl is having a bit of a bad hair stage, but her coat should improved in a few weeks when they can groom fully and are better developed.

They are both very lively still and pooping/peeing without prompting though they still get regular belly rubs.

They are also in a large box now as they are a lot more active at night.


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## morning-star

15 days old.

Pinky: 









A sleepy Brain:


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## bubbles&amp;squeak

N'awwwwww x


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## morning-star

17 days old, down to feeding every four hours, but they are eating a lot more on their own. and their fur is slowly improving.

feeding them the baby cereal has really helped them to put on weight, ( they are both about 10-11 grams or so)
This stuff:
https://www.aptamilprofessional.co.uk/cereals/baby-cereals/multigrain-breakfast

they also LOVE their soft porrage oats, and are starting to nibble seeds as well.

Came up with a delicious idea for them as well; chopped up fresh meal-worms (as in brought live)

Per 100g (basic nutritional content):
Fat 27.2%
Protein 49.6%
Carbohydrates 6.9 grams
Calories: 471 calories
Fibre: 3.1%
Calcium: 420 ppm

I get Live ones on occasion for weaned/mothers etc but never realised they where that high in fat/proreins!

They love them (as pretty much all mice do)

Obviously it's not something I want them to over eat on.


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## bubbles&amp;squeak

they are so so cute


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## morning-star

18 days old:









I'm not sure what colour the female is after all: 









It's really hard to photo her colour and that's the closest one that came out for the colour. :/

They are both still scruffy but that's not a problem.


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## andypandy29us

they are gorgeous


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## moustress

I think you are doing a great job with these orphans; they look a little underweight, but by the time they reach three weeks they ought to catch up. Their eyes look nice and clear. The coats are a little scruffy; try waterless shampoo for cats and a soft toothbrush. When I hand raised a few babies it did a wonderful job of getting rid of that greasy uneven look, and they seemed to really like the attention.


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## Cait

moustress said:


> I think you are doing a great job with these orphans; they look a little underweight


They're not orphans Moustress, the owner removed them from their mother's litter specifically to 'try hand-rearing'. As far as we know the mother is alive and well nursing the rest of the litter. That's why a few of us objected, since there was no need to put them at risk in the first place.


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## love2read

They're looking good in those last couple pics! You're doing a great job! I've handraised multiple animals before(namely sugar glides joeys and kittens) and they always look a bit scruffy til they're fully weaned. 

If I had the time I'd totally try my hand and raising baby mice! I've raise sugar gliders who needed feedings every 30 minutes and kittens that were premie(practically naked at 3 days old) and had URIs. The vet said the kittens wouldn't make it...Psh! We proved him wrong!  I think if you're going to kill the babies anyways and you have the time for it then why not give it a go?

I'd guesstimate that about 90%(if not more) of handraised mice don't make it. By taking the time and effort ti handraise babies you can help to work out some of the kinks and maybe come up with a better method to improve odds for people in the future who might be stuck with orphan babies in need of a human "mommy" to raise them.


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## morning-star

MouseBreeder said:


> moustress said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are doing a great job with these orphans; they look a little underweight
> 
> 
> 
> They're not orphans Moustress, the owner removed them from their mother's litter specifically to 'try hand-rearing'. As far as we know the mother is alive and well nursing the rest of the litter. That's why a few of us objected, since there was no need to put them at risk in the first place.
Click to expand...

sadly the mother has been pretty sick of and on, she's had bad runns, and been a bit sneezy of and on, and has been drinking a stupid amount (75ml bottle in a day 1/2 on her own) (so has been peeing a LOT) she's on an oats and burned toast diet now to help with the upset tummy, the remaining kits are doing great, but I doubt she could cope with more.


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## moustress

Orphans or not, I always am happy to see ALL the babies survive to fur up and open their eyes. Whether the surplus is fostered on another nursing doe, or raised by hand, I think it's great. that's why I try to do about a half a dozen litters in a breeding cycle . That way I'm bound to have mothers with only three or four born to them who can take on the excess from another litter.


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## morning-star

moustress said:


> Orphans or not, I always am happy to see ALL the babies survive to fur up and open their eyes. Whether the surplus is fostered on another nursing doe, or raised by hand, I think it's great. that's why I try to do about a half a dozen litters in a breeding cycle . That way I'm bound to have mothers with only three or four born to them who can take on the excess from another litter.


normally I have 2-5 does breeding on the go, which means I can foster (though I do normally have to end up culling some, which gets used as snake feed) but this litter came a little unplanned as I left the buck in too long and so she had a litter right after a previous one,  I like to leave a gap between litters for my mice normally to be kind to the mothers.

I don't like culling adult mice unless they are sick if I can help it as well. (though I might consider breeding for snake food one day, as I question the care of commercial feeder mice, and I'd sooner have a mouse live a short happy/healthy one than a over-bred/sick poor one but at the moment its not beneficial/worth it money wise....but that's really off topic )


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## morning-star

EDIT of the above post that it wont let me edit for some reason: :roll:

normally I have 2-5 does breeding on the go, which means I can foster (though I do normally have to end up culling some, which gets used as snake feed) but this litter came a little unplanned as I left the buck in too long and so she had a litter right after a previous one,  I like to leave a gap between litters for my mice normally to be kind to the mothers.

I don't like culling adult mice unless they are sick if I can help it as well, or I really really really can't find a home/keep it (normally the case of the odd buck). (though I might consider breeding for snake food one day, as I question the care of commercial feeder mice, and I'd sooner have a mouse live a short happy/healthy one than a over-bred/sick poor one but at the moment its not beneficial/worth it money wise....but that's really off topic )

My fiancé (also known as daddy) has covered a few feeding sessions for me when I've had a migraine/been too tired, but he's not the same as mummy and they ended up refusing to eat much :lol: .....though he gave them no choice poor things :roll:

I'm feeding the lactol every four hours now, but they eat less and less of it as they are eating/drinking lots on their own.

The meal-worms are a super hit, gotta ration them and make sure they don't eat them and only them though!!

I have put so much time and money into there care so I am pleased they are doing so well, at this point I think I would really be heartbroken if they don't make it.


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## morning-star

day 20, both 13 grams each! 
their survival rate is much higher at this point. 

I have stopped the paint brush feeding now (they have a lactol and water dish anyway)as they both refuse to eat from it (as they fill up in their own time now)


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## morning-star

day 21 - photos

Pinky - now 14 grams 









don't look at me! 









Brain -still 13 grams. 

















lively and starting to fatten up nicely -give them another 3-6 weeks and they'll be up to normal mouse size if all goes well.

I'm getting a shed sorted for all my mice soon, but these two will stay indoors permanently, just to reduce the chance of anything making them sick, due to their probable lower immune system.


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## Justinel

Awww the splash !


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## morning-star

day 22- Put a 7 week old black tan in with them. She was being bullied on her old home and I figured they could learn from an older doe.

They keep wanting to play around with her (play tousling/jumping about etc) but she keeps running away bless, the black tan looks like she'll be on the bottom of the social ladder again, with Brain and then Pinky above her. :lol:

They are not fighting at all, and I hope she teaches them a little about the mouse social world and teach them how to drink from a water bottle.

I was going to leave it another few days before introducing her, but the black tan keeps sleeping all alone, and has become jittery with people (well me) I figured she'd be happier with the youngsters.


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## morning-star

Day 23 - Pinky 14grams still Brain 15grams.

The black tan is a very odd strange mousey. very very very hyper. rarely seems to be social with them at all (she ignores their existence a lot) I have the feeling she was like this in the other mouse box she was in, which is why she became a social outcast. I don't think she was the best choice for a tutor :lol: I'm hoping a bond will grow with her and Pinky so they can be both keep each other company. The black tan is an older sister from a previous litter (same parents).


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## morning-star

day 26 - both about 20-21 grams each or so, 

The black tan has settled with them well and is a lot friendlier now. still crazy though!

They are eating less of the baby food but lots more adult food, and bulking up nicey.

Will take some more progress photos soon.


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## andypandy29us

im pleased they are doing well


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## morning-star

MORE PHOTOS :lol:

They are looking good! growing nicely.

Pinky: 

















Brain: 

















and their black tan friend nicknamed 'psyco child' 









:lol:


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## Pamplemousse

They're looking really healthy! Good job with all that feeding. How docile do they seem with handling in comparison to a regular baby?


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## AyJay658

Aww they look in really great condition now =) That's awesome and well done for managing it!! You will make a good mum! (Or dad?)


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## morning-star

they are just about five weeks old now, I normally separate siblings between 4 - 5 weeks, without any problems, I then separate the girls/boys (though normally keep the boys together for a few weeks longer as I find they normally like the company for a while longer) but last night I caught Brain trying to hump Pinky :/ -it didn't look like she got sperm plugged, and I'm hoping that she's not developed enough to even take if he did get her.    
I dunno if he's tried it on with the 9-10 week old black tan either. I will keep a close eye on them both.

I took him out right away, though I was going to be separating them today anyway.

Iv'e never heard of males really trying under six weeks either and it's never happened before to me. (the worst I seen is fighting boys at 4-5+ weeks old)

ps I'm a girl.


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## DaisyTailsMousery

Good job hand raising! I tried it once and my little peanut died for days later at 12 days old  I tried my best to save it but it just didn't work out


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