# So tired of 'The Fun Mouse' forum...



## Rhasputin

It seems like every post I make over there, gets some rude, smart-as_ed comment form one of the moderators. There just seem to be no respect over there. I don't know if it was a conscious effort, just to piss me off, but EVERY one of my posts (most of them duplicates from over here) get some very rude comments from the mods.

Not only that, but I've had several posts 'Denied' and they always send an email explaining, and the mods are completely un-professional in the way that the explain why the post was rejected.

I know this isn't a 'rant' section, but this relates to behavior for one specific reason.

I posted a topic on -this- forum, about three brindle mothers that I had in the same tank, who all took turns taking care of each other's litters. I think the title is 'three moms that got along so well!' if you want to look it up and read it for yourself.

Here is the response that I got, when trying to post the same thing on TFM forum, after like, a week or two of waiting for it to be accepted:

We cannot in good conscience allow this post on the public forum. The
situation described is not amazing, it's downright dangerous and you were
very, very lucky those mice did not turn on each other, among other things.
In allowing so many females to give birth together, you cannot track lines
properly as you will not know who's babies are whose, on top of the
enormous amount of stress it puts on new mother's and babies who need a
serious measure of privacy. We cannot condone this, and in allowing the
post public, we do not want to give anyone the idea that this is a good
thing to do ~ever~. While we realize this was an accident, as someone who
breeds, you should have known better and set each pregnant doe up with her
own nursery immediately, especially since you did not know the date of
their pregnancy. The results could have catastrophic, and luckily it
worked out, but this is usually not the case, especially with mice in which
you do not know their genetic histories. Telling everyone that this was
amazing is dangerous and can encourage others to put their mice in danger.
It is for these reason we cannot approve this post. Secondly, we find it
rather appalling that you seem so thrilled with a blunder like this. Once
the first girl gave birth, you should've removed the other two immediately.
That you didn't implies a certain disregard for their lives. Wild mice
may colonize like this, but these are not wild mice, and in allowing this
to happen you put them in grave danger, not too mention the over-crowding
that could impact seriously impact health, the possible baby-theft,
maiming, or any huge number of terrible things that could've happened.
What if one of those babies fell out of the hammock? Domestic mice do not
behave like wild mice, and this situation is scary, not funny or cute.

Maybe it's just me... But does that seem -over- exaggerated to you?
And about the fancy mice 'not colonizing' I've had tons of success with colonizing, and so have a few people i know (i don't know many people that breed mice personally, but out of the few i do know...).

I don't think I'll be using that forum any more. It just seems to be owned and operated by very rude people.


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## windyhill

Everyone has an different idea on how to raise/breed mice and on the FunMouse sometimes they can take it overbaord,but they usually mean well. Their ideas are a bit different then some other breeders though.
Theres some nice people on there,but theres others that can be a bit much.


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## nanette37

they should be more worried about their grammar

and ya i agree with you.. they really overreacted. i dont think there is anything wrong with keeping does together to give birth. i stopped using that forum after i got in a huge argument because i didnt want to waste money on popsicle sticks.. somehow it led to them telling me that i "need to save thousands of dollars for the vet"..

you should just ignore it. this forum is 10 times better anyway


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## moustress

Yes, some of them are over the top as far as tellling other breeders how to run their mousery, or the one or two cages, if that's the case. It would seem to be a case of cranio-rectalitis; or perhaps one or more of them have a moderately sized piece of hardened vegetation of the arboreal variety wedged...ooh, I wouldn't want to be offensive, they might find out and ban me again...oh, what the heck...where their brain belongs, or maybe somewhere completely different.

Actually, I think I never stuck around that forum long enough to get banned. I could read the writing on the wall. The generally nonjudgemental attitude of this forum's members are what keep me active. We are good!


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## Rhasputin

I appreciate the criticism on this forum. It's USEFUL and generally not opinionated and judgmental.

. . . Cranio-rectalitis... LOL.


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## ian

Personally I always try to get my does to birth in pairs or small groups and failing that then put in another doe to act as a nanny. I have had does birth on their own and its worked out ok most of the time but I have had better results from nursing groups. The problem with does birthing alone which I ahve experienced is them failing to rpoduce milk or just being a bad mother, Ive had to foster babies from a single mother into group situations several times.


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## SarahY

Pious, self-righteous maniacs. Tell 10 decades worth of English show breeders that it's dangerous to keep groups of mothers together.

There's a rat forum that's very similar. I wouldn't dare post on it when I used to breed rats, people can be so horrid. My friends and I used to refer to a specific group of people on there as the rat police. The shame of it is that all these people had much knowledge they could have shared, but instead they used it to flame people that didn't keep their rats exactly as they did. And heaven forbid you posted an accidental litter or even that you wanted to breed your rats! There was a huge amount of hypocrisy, and it sadly meant that people who did need advice felt unable to post 

ETA: Once, in a telephone conversation about the Rat Police and their ridiculous pet-only, non-breeding 'contracts', Tony Jones said to me "I bought those rats and I'll breed 'em. If I bought a car and decided to spray it yellow, I'd bl**dy well spray it yellow!"

Sarah xxx


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## WoodWitch

I've enjoyed success when I have grouped mothers/litters together and also failure when I have left a doe alone with her litter. That's not to say that either is _right_ or _wrong_ . 
When Common Sense doesn't provide the answer I like to try things out and SEE what works best, thus, learning from my mistakes.

Stay with us here on the nice forum Rhasputin


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## zany_toon

I had considered joining fun mouse once but was too disgusted at the attitude in some of the posts!! Everyone is entitled to their opinion but they need to realise that there is a balance between giving advice and have a case of self righteous, argumentative verbal diarrhoea!! :lol: Sounds like they have taken narcissism to a whole new level 

Stick with us! I haven't been here long but have found it one of the best mouse forums ever so far


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## Lizzle

I agree that that is unprofessional mod behavior. I am a mod on a sim-pet site - and although it sounds rather different - there is one key element in being a mod: be professional without portraying bias!

That's exactly what those mods did - they were biased toward their own beliefs.

You know what? Many mice prefer to have babies with other mothers (around the same time, of course) - psychologically it reduces their stress and gives them some adult company (provided there is adequate space and proper living environment). Perhaps this doesn't always happen, but there is certainly no right or wrong way to do it!

I can't believe they said things like "Secondly, we find it
rather appalling that you seem so thrilled with a blunder like this." and "...and this situation is scary, not funny or cute." Terribly biased.

As a website moderator on another website, I find their behavior quite _insulting._ Then again, it's their site, I suppose.

Stay here.  So far, I've found that this is by far the best mousie forum I've come across on the interwebz!


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## moustress

Does housed together are often more fertile, as the dominant does cycle also stimulate and regulates the cycles of the others. This assertion would be 'politically incorrect' over there.


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## jusgus

I had to check there site out after reading this thread. Those people are a bunch of jerks.


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## Autumn2005

When I first started breeding mice, I got most of my information from TFM, mostly genetics and other things. I never looked at the forum, but as I read what they considered proper behavior for the mice and how to deal with them, I thought, well, I'm doing it differently and my mice are working out fine... They'd probably all have a heart attack if I started treating them the "proper" way, lol. My mice and I get along just fine!


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## Rhasputin

Lol. I'm glad to hear this from you guys. I was starting to think it WAS me!


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## windyhill

Nope, its not you  
That forum is more for pet owners, then for breeders. They judge new breeders very hard and seem to think they breeders should already knew everything, but whats the fun in that? If theres nothing to learn then its not really the same.
And instead of offering help all they do is bash. 
But there are som good people on there.


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## SarahY

I don't think they'd be at all happy if they saw my stud! My mice all live in lab cages with no toys, hammocks, or even a food bowl. All they get is a big pile of hay. I don't feed them treats and, although I handle them every day, they don't get time out of their cages. Yet somehow they are superb condition, totally happy and friendly, and breed like maniacs! I reckon that if mice are eating, breeding and in tip-top condition then they can't be miserable!

Sarah xxx


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## Rhasputin

That's a good view to have, Sarah.

I like for all of my mice to have a wheel, a house, and a water bottle at the bare minimum.
All of my mice are happy, all are healthy, and all are breeding (that are supposed to be!) and I haven't had any troubles with deaths or fighting in quite some time. I'm almost having -too- much success! I'm going to have to take a lot more out for snake food, than I would have liked to this round.


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## windyhill

Not all my my mice have wheels, but I do try to give them each a toy along with a house.
My mice are all healthy & happy which is all that matters.


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## moustress

My boys live in bare cages, 'cept for the bedding and some timothy for fun (and it does a good job of 'freshnin'*), ;especially the ones that live in twos or fours. The singletons are in smaller tanks, and those boys occasionally get a wheel if I have a clean one small enough to go in there. The girls get all sorts of junk to play with when I'm in the mood and have the energy. Sometimes you can hardly see the meeces for all the playstuff.

*tho they hardly need it; my boys smell like sunshine and roses... :lol:


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## Erica

I had to check it out and see what it was all about. WOW! I'm SO incredibly thankful that I found this forum first, as I think they would have scared me away from joining any forum! A lot of them are just vicious, for lack of a better word. Although I did have to smudge the truth a little; telling them i had half the mice I do have and withholding the fact of being a feeder breeder. but I guess thats okay, after all, my pet store mice wouldn't be more than "a glob of slime on the bottom of their shoe"! :lol: :lol: I can't deal with the negative things they say about people (and their mice), so I'm happy to stay here.  (guess I'm not doing any better by talking about them.  )
I love my babies just way they are!!!

Thank you to everyone on this forum for being respectful and polite to others. It makes such a huge difference in morale and makes things pleasant for everyone. I'm proud to be part of such an amazing group of people.


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## Matt Haslam

I haven't bothered to look at the forum in question, because i know the type.

Yes i have seen it with rats before, thats why i don't subscribe to any rat clubs or shows or forums any more, for fear the rat police will come and get me!!!!

My mice are kept in well ventilated plastic tubs on aubiose bedding and shredded plain white paper bedding, they have no toys or wheels they don't get treats; they are fantastically healthy and clean. My rats are kept in large rat cages or nursing tanks where necessary, they don't have toys, my males get hammocks (my females just destroy them so they get a nest box)

The health of the animals tells you that the conditions they are kept in are good.

I can't stand people who might suggest that the animals are suffering because they don't have toys etc. Rats and mice get their stimulation from each other, they are social rodents, which reminds me i must go and put 2 of my does back together after being with seperate bucks

oh no i can hear the mousy gestapo coming, surely i'm not thinking of letting them have litters together!!! bad boy i must be.

This forum rocks!!!! there is intelligent non judgemental help and discussion, why bother with any other.

'If Carlsberg made mouse forums, it would be this one!'

ok rant over with


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## Cait

_*Mod note:

While it's great to know that people find this forum useful and enjoyable to belong to, starting threads specifically to express negative views of other forums is not something this forum encourages. We understand that everyone has (and is entitled to) their own views, but not only is this a one-sided thread since no-one from TFM is here to represent their point of view, it does negatively impact on the reputation of this forum. To keep this the approachable forum that many of you seem happy to belong to the moderators and admin request that you refrain from defamation. Of course you can express your opinions if relevant topics arise and this topic will not be locked, but please bear the above in mind. Thanks *_


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## Matt Haslam

wise words 

apologies if i crossed the line.


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## Cait

No problem Matt. Part of the problem with things like this is that people start lumping all members of a forum together and generalise. For example, I'm sure people here wouldn't take kindly if someone on another forum was moaning that we were all feeder breeders (implying this means we treat the mice poorly, which is not true of feeder breeders by definition) and giving our mice insufficient space; obviously this isn't true but it's all about perspective. If someone was getting 2 pet mice and gave them a 3 foot tank, great - show breeders don't do this and I can see why pet keepers may think we are 'cruel' on the face of it...


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## jusgus

MouseBreeder said:


> _*Mod note:
> 
> While it's great to know that people find this forum useful and enjoyable to belong to, starting threads specifically to express negative views of other forums is not something this forum encourages. We understand that everyone has (and is entitled to) their own views, but not only is this a one-sided thread since no-one from TFM is here to represent their point of view, it does negatively impact on the reputation of this forum. To keep this the approachable forum that many of you seem happy to belong to the moderators and admin request that you refrain from defamation. Of course you can express your opinions if relevant topics arise and this topic will not be locked, but please bear the above in mind. Thanks *_


1. If you want that trash on your forum so they can defend themselves then I will be more then willing to throw out the invite so no one else has to dirty there hands lol. 2. If they were here to defend themselves all they would do is throw everything you do with your mice back in your face as a wrong doing then after a couple posts later admit they do the same thing you are doing. 3. All they will do is rant and rave until they either feel better about themselves or until you give up. I'm not trying to get myself in trouble just stating my opinion and some truth at the same time imagine that.


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## Rhasputin

Oh gosh I just got BANNED! From TFM forums!

For 'un-ethical breeding practices and war mongering' WHAT? LOL.

The last post i tried to make, was telling someone the appropriet ways to breed pet shop mice. Apparently me giving them good advice, and warnings about potential problems that may have, is UN-ETHICAL.

-facepalm-

Here's my post if anyone cares to read it:
I see Norma's mom's text... but all I seem to be reading is a bunch of insults, and biased information...
"If they choose not to do all they can to get sound stock and instead breed pet shop stock, then they need to let others know that their mice are just the same as any mouse found in a pet store....which would make you no better than the mills and feeder-breeders. If you're cool with that, great....we aren't though. "

That was -extremely- un-called for. Being a mod, you should really keep your emotions in check, and try to give people good, un-biased suggestions, and _help_.
It would not make them the same as a mill, or a feeder-breeder (that is also an insult to feeder-breeders) as the person breeding from pet store stock, has goals in site, other than to just produce more mice.

How do you think people GOT good stock? Magically appearing genetically perfect mice? No.
Breeding for a long time, from pet store stock, general domestic stock, or wild stock.
There is absolutely no reason, if someone wants to, that they shouldn't try to start from pet store quality mice.
It may take 20 years or more to start from pet store mice, and get to beautiful show quality stock, but then, I think that is more fulfilling, than just buying mice that are already perfect, and just breeding them and making more perfect babies that you hardly had a hand in.

You need to be aware of the -potential- problems you may have though, if someone was going to start with pet store stock.
You will probably want to start with mice from several different stores, to make sure your gene pool is large. I know it's a bit hit-and-mis at first, but the best thing to do is test the waters, and figure out what you have, and if any of the mice are going to have serious health problems that may pass on in your lines. 
If someone was going to start breeding from pet store stock, they need to be aware, that there may be an underlying problem, that may show up a few generations in, and they need to be prepared to cull their stock if a problem seems to arise.
Isolating what genes who has, is also often very difficult from pet store stock, but it can be done over a little bit of time. Even 'genetically perfect' show quality mice, still have genes hiding in them, that decide to pop out every once in a while.

Breeding pet store mice in my opinion, is the HARDEST way to go, but in the end, when you have really great success down the road, it is also the most fulfilling way to go. To think that -you- are completely responsible for the eugenics behind a mouse breed, is a really nice feeling.

I have created great mice, from pet store mice. 
The best thing to do, I've found, is to introduce mice with good genetics into the line, similar to what you've done with your one buck from a breeder. I have several show quality mice, that I breed to pet store type mice, because where I live it is easier to find the colours I want in fancy style mice. So I mix them up with my mice with show bodies, and eventually, I get a stock of the colour i want, with the type of fur i want, and a lovely body type. 

I hope -that- is enough information, without bias, to help you out. There are a lot of trials to go through when starting out like this, but like i said: In the end, it can be the most fulfilling day ever, when you have your first litter of you own, custom bred, show quality mice. 

As long as you have goals, know the possible consequences, and all of your mice are healthy and clean, then you are a fine breeder in my eyes.

(END)

Most of that information is actually, STRAIGHT from a sticky post on that forum, too... But the moderator who was posting on the thread, was saying you 'CANNOT EVER BREED PET SHOP MICE RAAAAH YOU'RE LIKE A MILL. OR A FEEDER BREEDER. YOU'RE NOT SLIME ON MY SHOE'
... To paraphrase.

-sigh- 
I'm kinda glad I got banned. Now I have a good exscuse not to go back there.


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## Jack Garcia

As many people here have found, there are a couple forums that have a kind of cult mentality to them where newcomers are more-or-less shunned. It's a shame it has to be that way.

There is only one American-based mouse forum that's _not_ run by crazies ("crazies" is solely my word and not reflective of Fancy Mice Breeders in any way). I happen to help moderate that forum and we make sure to take a very "hands-off" approach to moderation, only stepping in in very extreme circumstances such as when spammers post "BUY NEW SHOES!" or whatever.

It's a shame that people at TFM and their spin-off forum are so exclusionary and mean-spirited. I have no doubt that the few people who run the place really do intend to advocate for mice and that they have the mice's best interest at heart, but what ends up happening is that they turn people away and lose any credibility they might have had. They get their panties in such a twist over the mice, that they lose sight of the _people_. It's just an all-around shame.


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## Rhasputin

Well said Jack. :/


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## moustress

From Duck's Breath Mystery Theatre:

'There's a lot of places I've never been before'
'And a lot of places wouldn't let me in before'
'But I don't care if I'm sick or getting old'
'No, I'm gonna sit right here and dig a hole'
'So 'ptthp'  on the other guy
'Pttht  on the other guy'
'I just like it here'

:lol:

I just love those guys, those Ducky Mysterious Breathy show guys. And, hey, we've heard some of those same dumb things in this forum too, so, I guess we can just be where we are and do what we do. I always feel like I'm doing a good deed when I buy a pet store mousie, and I've found some pretty cool ones.

I think there are a lot of views espoused in some forums that are based on sentiment instead of facts or reality, and there's no way to get around that. Someone, I think it was in TFM, said that wild meeces live longer and healthier lives than pet or show mousies; that's one I can't agree with, though I don't know how they or I could ever prove it one way or the other.

In any case, I like it here.


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## razorwyr

Jack,
No offense, but I laughed so hard when I read this.

Especially considering the forum you help moderate is the one that banned me for just being in a relationship with one of the other owners of another forum (and I would assume it is the one you are calling a "spin off" of TFM - when it was, in fact, created as an alternative). Talk about welcoming newcomers, I was a member (and a neutral party) for a whole minute and a half and got drug into two different forum owner's feud and was banned unceremoniously while chatting with the forum owner on facebook.

Talk about cult mentality and crazies.... Thanks for the laugh.



Jack Garcia said:


> As many people here have found, there are a couple forums that have a kind of cult mentality to them where newcomers are more-or-less shunned. It's a shame it has to be that way.
> 
> There is only one American-based mouse forum that's _not_ run by crazies ("crazies" is solely my word and not reflective of Fancy Mice Breeders in any way). I happen to help moderate that forum and we make sure to take a very "hands-off" approach to moderation, only stepping in in very extreme circumstances such as when spammers post "BUY NEW SHOES!" or whatever.
> 
> It's a shame that people at TFM and their spin-off forum are so exclusionary and mean-spirited. I have no doubt that the few people who run the place really do intend to advocate for mice and that they have the mice's best interest at heart, but what ends up happening is that they turn people away and lose any credibility they might have had. They get their panties in such a twist over the mice, that they lose sight of the _people_. It's just an all-around shame.


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## Cait

_*Mod note:

Unfortunately the previous mod note has not been heeded and therefore it has become necessary to lock this topic. Please refrain from airing personal grievances on the forum in future.*_


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