# Pied-



## jessierose2006

Ok I see some mice with too much or too little color are classified as "non-standard"

Are they disqualified in shows?

And is there a technical term for them.

I know in rabbits if it had less than 10% and more than 80% we called them "Charlies" and they were an automatic DQ in the show.


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## Roland

Hi jessierose2006,

I can not answer your question, but if you want to know the genetic reason for the differences between the "too much" and "too little white" (the K-factors) read the following: http://www.repage7.de/member/drofi/piebald.html

Best regards, Roland


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## jessierose2006

lol thanks.


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## Rhasputin

They don't get disqualified for being poorly marked, but they get a very low score for marking type.


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## jessierose2006

oh ok.

So is there anything that would DQ a mouse from its class.


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## Jack Garcia

It's automatically DQed if it's entered incorrectly. Or if it's sick or in poor condition (although if this is the case, it shouldn't have made it past health check).

I had to DQ a very nice mouse once, because it had been entered as a self accidentally when it was actually a marked mouse.


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## Rhasputin

An injury, biting the judge, or obviously being classed incorrectly.

It's hard to incorrectly class a marked mouse. Since a poorly marked mouse can look a million different ways. But say, if you entered a mouse as standard, and it was actually rex, then it would be disqualified.

EDIT: Yeah, what Jack said, we posted at the same time. :lol:

I saw a mouse entered as standard, that was actually a very very poor rex at the MAMA show that got disqualified.


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## jessierose2006

ok so no mouse can be disqualified for color or coat IF its in the correct class. So i could enter a mouse into the marked class that say only had 1 single dot on it and it wouldnt matter. I know i wouldnt be top of the class but it wouldnt get thrown off the table.


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## Rhasputin

More or less. If you enter a mouse with 1 spot as a broken marked mouse, it would score very very low, but I doubt would be disqualified, at least on the east coast.


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## SarahC

in the U.K brokens have to have one spot on the nose that includes the whisker bed.Do you not have that rule in the U.S.A. ? A mouse with no nose spot would be DQ.


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## Rhasputin

From my limited experience, they would just get scored as very poor in markings. Although, i guess it depends on how friendly the judge is feeling.


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## Jack Garcia

SarahC said:


> in the U.K brokens have to have one spot on the nose that includes the whisker bed.Do you not have that rule in the U.S.A. ? A mouse with no nose spot would be DQ.


I wish we had this rule.


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## SarahC

Jack Garcia said:


> SarahC said:
> 
> 
> 
> in the U.K brokens have to have one spot on the nose that includes the whisker bed.Do you not have that rule in the U.S.A. ? A mouse with no nose spot would be DQ.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish we had this rule.
Click to expand...

It makes it difficult though.You get some with great spots but the last spot will circle the eye or fall short of the whiskers.It doesn't appear to be a natural area for a spot to form although a fully coloured nose is easy to breed in as are 2 ear spots which you wouldn't be DQ for but wouldn't do any good with either.


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## Jack Garcia

Yeah, I haven't seen many with whisker bed spot at all, although I saw one once with a perfect black circle around one eye. Very funny-looking if you ask me.


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## Roland

SarahC said:


> in the U.K brokens have to have one spot on the nose that includes the whisker bed.


Who made this rule?


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## SarahC

It's an NMC rule,part of the written standard.No nose spot = no good for showing.Still O.K as breeders .


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## SarahC

It's not optional.Like this.It would be preferable if it had opposite nose and ear spot.That's not part of the standard but is desirable


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## Roland

SarahC said:


> It's an NMC rule,part of the written standard.No nose spot = no good for showing.Still O.K as breeders .


Sure, but who made this rule? Why not make a rule that there has to be a spot on the left ear? I think some rules of the standards have been created by people who are dead since centuries and nobody knows what they are good for.

Did you know that in Florida it is illegal to fish while driving across a bridge and that it is illegal to fart in a public place after 6:00pm on a Thursday?  
Source: http://crazytopics.blogspot.com/2007/01 ... erica.html


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## SarahC

Lol.Thats humans for you.


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## jessierose2006

so. i want to keep only the ones with ear and nose spots?

and if so i should get rid of my pied black that has 1 eye spot and only color on her left side.

but i know in my 1 litter i have a pied black tan/fox (not sure of which yet) that has white paws, a white tail, and one tiny white spot on its head. if i bred him to the pied black doe would that balance the spotting in the babies?

Sorry this is a complete 180 from breeding rabbits


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## Rhasputin

Jessie, if you're breeding for broken marked mice, I have a few that I'm about to cull that I could save for you. My friend Ann who lives in MD is coming down for a visit on the 23rd, I'm sure she could pick them up.

They have nice spotting, but could use a bit more, but they're good to work from, rather than working from complete scratch. 
I'll try to see who looks good when I go home later, if you'd like.


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## Roland

jessierose2006 said:


> so. i want to keep only the ones with ear and nose spots?
> and if so i should get rid of my pied black that has 1 eye spot and only color on her left side.
> 
> but i know in my 1 litter i have a pied black tan/fox (not sure of which yet) that has white paws, a white tail, and one tiny white spot on its head. if i bred him to the pied black doe would that balance the spotting in the babies?


The marking pattern is very often just result of serendipity, when you don't do clonal inbreeding, as seems to be the origin of Dutch mice. 
To cross a mouse with little white to a mouse with little black can balance the k-factors, which are the reason for this difference, so you do not need to get rid of them.
Btw, it is much easier to get rid of many k-factors, but much more difficult to collect them. Therefore as a general tipp I suggest to keep those with a lot of white. You can get mice with a nose spot from two parents which do not have a nose spot and you can get many litters without nose spot from parents who both have nose spots. Just serendipity. Since you do not have this silly rule in the US you do not have to care for nose spots at all. Just try to breed for a motif that is pleasing to the eye.

Roland


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## Roland

SarahC said:


> Lol.Thats humans for you.


yes, but even the rule not to fart in a public place after 6:00 pm on a Thursday makes more sense than the rule to have a nose spot.


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## Jack Garcia

The requirement for a nose spot is all about aesthetics. So is the requirement for the correct shade of fur, the right placement of ears, the right thickness of tail, and so on.


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## Rhasputin

I think what Roland is trying to say is, it's a little silly to DQ a mouse for not having a nose spot, instead of giving it a poor score. Which I can understand.


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## SarahC

Roland said:


> SarahC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol.Thats humans for you.
> 
> 
> 
> yes, but even the rule not to fart in a public place after 6:00 pm on a Thursday makes more sense than the rule to have a nose spot.
Click to expand...

you may have a point but the rule wasn't made by me so not much point making an issue of it with me.

In answer to who made the rule
a:I don't know
b:I don't care which is why I don't know
I joined a club that is solely interested in mice for exhibition.Each variety having rules and standards.I keep mice for exhibition for the challenge and competition.I chose brokens because they are so challenging ,why would I want the standard making less exacting?All exhibition animals have a standard that the exhibitor strives to achieve,thats the point.I could understand you putting in an objection if there was a health and welfare issue but in this case there isn't.To join a club and then try to change the rules would in my opinion not only be arrogant but plain wrong.In fact Roland I would pose the question to you,Why did you join a club that is only interested in mice as show animals if you are not interested in producing mice that meet the standards that make the club?I don't understand ,what's the point for you?I'm glad you did,I enjoyed your input in the magazine this month but your points of view seem at odds with the objectives of showing mice.It's not like it's a secret that it's a club for people who show mice to a specific set of standards.


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## Seawatch Stud

Whats wrong with the rule about farting anyway? It's perfectly reasonable to expect people to get their daily fart ration over by six pm. I prefer to get my farting over by lunchtime, but thats just me. If people got their farting done earlier there may be a lot less s**t around to surface on this forum.


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## mousemad

:lol: :lol:


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## jessierose2006

:lol: :lol: thats too funny :lol:


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## geordiesmice

Im gonna post My membership too the NMC this week .They seem a lovely bunch


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## Roland

But We've Always Done It This Way!

The point I am talking about is the handling of rules and standards in general and the question, if we are allowed to think about them and change them from time to time. The standard for Brokens is an example only. Brokens without a nose spot but a spot over one eye are often much more beautiful.
So far the only argument for this part of the rule (Nose spot) seems to be:
But We've Always Done It This Way!
What does that really mean?
For many people change is painful. It doesn't matter how silly their current path or how promising the opportunity of other possibilities. Change hurts. It is also painful to admit that what you have been doing needs to be changed. Accepting change means accepting the possibility that you are not currently doing things the best way.
While you bite your tongue or fume at that response consider this Top Ten List of the Real Meanings of "But we've always done it this way".
What might people be thinking as they state that lame defense?
10. I haven't got a clue why we do it this way and I never thought about it before. But I'm not going to admit that to you.
9. Your question is a good one. But I never asked it and wish that I had. As much as your question disturbs me I won't admit that out loud.
8. You're new aren't you? You new people just want to change our perfect little world. We like it the way it is. We can outlast you.
7. How dare you question the wisdom of your predecessors? It was good enough for them why isn't it good enough for you? Have you no blind respect and subservience to those who were here before you?
6. You clearly don't know how we do things around here. It has nothing to do with logic, fairness and openness.
5. If you are a team player you will go along with us without asking embarrassing questions like that.
4. We don't like questions like that. And right now I don't like you for asking it.
3. Perhaps you believe that you have the right to ask questions... but you're wrong. Shut up and go with the flow.
2. It's working the way it is. Leave it alone. Can we go now?
1. Despite what you were told, this is not a democracy. We don't care about your ideas. Just do what you are told to do. And do it the way that you are told to do it.

You asked me why I am in the NMC? Im think here are many great people and the english NMC is the club with the most experienced mouse fanciers in the world. I am an experinced breeder and it is good to work together.
Nevertheless the NMC is no exception from other organisations. The long-term growth and success of NMC depends at least a little bit on the ability to innovate, and meaningful dialogue about how to make that happen. Things change, people and generations change, and the argument "But We've Always Done It This Way" can not be the way for the future. Think about the existing standard for Tricolours of the NMC. When this standard was developed the people did not even know of the existence of the Splashed gene. They knew only broken sables as Tricolors. It is very clear that the Standard for Tricolour should be changed now, since the "modern" Tricolours are easier to reproduce and very different form the "old" Tricolors. But this is an example only. Why not think about other existing standards? Because there are the ten reasons mentioned above?

All the best, and with a lot of respect for the people who run the NMC,

Roland

edited because of typing errors and missing sentence about eye spot.


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## SarahC

I'm neither fuming or embarassed.I can't think of any reason why I would need to be.For what reason would you want to change the existing standard.You have offered no reason?You want to change it just because?Is that valid.


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## SarahC

I think most of your points 1 to 10 are not genuine points.Whats being new got to do with it.What do you mean can we go home now?What do you mean it's always been done this way so lets carry on?Nothing to do with a democracy,if you have a standard it has to be applied otherwise it won't have any meaning.It's the point of showing.The himalayan has recently been reclassified because there was a good reason.I think you are listening to your own views and believing them and they seem a little jaundiced to me.


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## SarahY

Oh Roland, with the greatest respect you do make me laugh sometimes! I am absolutely baffled as to why you think standards should be changed :lol: Shall we allow selfs to have patchy colour and call it mosaic? Or allow agouti to be umbrous? Oooh, let's have an 'otter' class like the cavies and rabbits so that people can show poor tans! The reason we don't is because exhibitors like the challenge. It is challenging to breed brokens with a nose spot, even selfs, agoutis with evenly distributed ticking and tans with bright orange bellies.

With regards to the existing standards of tricolour, England does not, at this time, have the modern tricolour (well, the splashed gene anyway) - so why change the standard for something no-one exhibits anyway?

ETA: Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that way must be outdated and wrong 

Sarah xxx


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## SarahY

> Brokens without a nose spot but a spot over one eye are often much more beautiful.


That's your point of view though isn't it? Doesn't mean the majority of fanciers exhibiting broken agree with you! I don't think the 'Standard of Excellence as is According to Roland' is very democratic, do you?  :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## geordiesmice

I dont exhibit mice yet but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One person may think it is more beautifull with a spot over the eye one person may think a spot on the nose more appealing it is a personel choice is it not?


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## SarahC

geordiesmice said:


> I dont exhibit mice yet but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One person may think it is more beautifull with a spot over the eye one person may think a spot on the nose more appealing it is a personel choice is it not?


thats the whole point though.It's not a personal choice when exhibiting anything,dogs,cats etc.There is a standard written down which you try to match regardless of beauty.It wouldn't work otherwise.Theres nothing wrong with doing your own thing but it's not generally the aim of producing anything to show standard.


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## jessierose2006

> With regards to the existing standards of tricolour, England does not, at this time, have the modern tricolour (well, the splashed gene anyway) - so why change the standard for something no-one exhibits anyway?


But then if you do not classify it in the standard how can someone perfect that color to "Standard" The system is therefore flawed. When I first popped out a blue otter Mini Rex it wasnt even recognized. I couldnt show it, I couldnt determine how close to "standard" I was. Once they did create a standard for the color and classify it as a recognized color sure it started out with maybe a handful of people but doesnt every color. Just because you dont get a high number of entries means you need not create a standard for it? How then are Exhibitors ever going to perfect those colors. let alone know they are recognized.

And no one said you had to make up a class for someone with poorly colored animals the otter in mini rex is nothing less than a tan mouse. same with the cavies just becuase it has a different name doesnt mean its a different color all together. If you had asked me what i thought my blue-tan was before i found out the correct term i would have said a blue otter. But i do think that if the color for example splash vs tricolor. they are seperate standards as you wouldnt use the tricolor standard to perfect your splashed mice if you understand what i am getting at...


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## SarahY

Splashed is the gene used to make the modern tricolour 

Sarah xxx


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## SarahY

There are unstandardised classes where one can show varieties they've been working on. I shall be showing my Abyssinian mice in the unstandardised classes this year. If a variety has enough appeal and is obviously different from every standardised variety, it will be standardised. Hereford was recently standardised, last year I think.

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006

ok. i give up. it just seems like the standard has a lot of... bend in it when it comes to mouse perfection.

When you look at the rabbit standard there is a fine definition of what are th faults of each color that each judge has to abbide with. The mouse standard doesnt state any faults.

Mouse Siamese Sable:
The siamese sable is to be a very light brownsimilar to the coffee, over the entire body. The points, which are very dark, almost black,are as for the siamese. Eye color is Black.

Rabbit Siamese Sable:
The surface color is to be a rich sepia brown on the head, ears, back, outside of legs, and top of the tail. The surface color will fade to a lighter sepia on the sides, chest, belly, inside of legs, and underside of the tail. Dark face color is to fade from the eyes to the jaws and all blending of color is to be gradual and free from blotched or streaks. The undercolor will be slightly lighter than the surface color. Eyes - brown.

Faults: fault animals that have streaks, blotched or poor color blending, Scattered white hairs, or lack of darker color in the loin area is a fault

With the mouse standard any and all faults are based off each individual judges opinion. so my mouse could be placed bottom by one judge but next time place 2nd by another. With the rabbit standard the judges base each placed animal by the faults stated per the standard.


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## jessierose2006

Im sure everything im saying has been said before and this is most likely a pointless debate.


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## SarahY

> With the mouse standard any and all faults are based off each individual judges opinion. so my mouse could be placed bottom by one judge but next time place 2nd by another. With the rabbit standard the judges base each placed animal by the faults stated per the standard.


That's possibly a problem with American standards. I don't know, I'm not familar with them. I don't mean to be disrespectful to American judges, but faults on a mouse are pretty obvious and it's just common sense that streaks, blotches, tan hairs, white hairs, etc etc are classed as faults - do they really need this written down?

We don't have Siamese sable, but here is the English standard for Siamese:


> Eyes any colour. Body colour medium beige.
> Shadings: Gradually shaded over saddle and hind quarters, merging gradually with body colour and being darkest at tail root as seen in the Siamese cat. The belly should be as near as possible in colour and shadings.
> Points: Seal coloured points shall be present in muzzle, ears, feet, tail and tail root. There should not be a definite or distinct line of demarcation but rather a harmonious balance between body colour, shadings and points. There should not be any blotches, streaks or white hairs.


That seems pretty exact to me!

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006

where did you find that??? i was looking on the AFRMA site at the standards they have written there.


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## SarahY

It's on the NMC site, here:
http://www.thenationalmouseclub.co.uk/breeds.php
The website needs the standards pages updating, but most of it is still correct.

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006

Much better! 

This is more what i was looking for the AFRMA didnt really say much in regards to standard of perfection. 

I just added that to my favorites lol


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## Roland

SarahY said:


> Oh Roland, with the greatest respect you do make me laugh sometimes! I am absolutely baffled as to why you think standards should be changed :lol:
> Sarah xxx


Having a nose spot is not the only way to be a nice pied. E.g. having no nose spot but an eye spot instead, often gives better looking brokens. Therefore the rule to disqualify mice without nose spot excludes many very good brokens, without any esthetical reason. The standard could be improved by exchanging the word "nose" against the word "head":

"Eye colour to be as in standardised variety. A Broken marked should be as far removed from the Even or Dutch marked mouse as possible; that is to say it should not have either Dutch cheeks, saddle or any markings which may be considered evenly placed. The spots or patches should be well distributed all over the body and head, the more uniform in size, the better, also the greater in number and they should be free from brindling. There must be a spot or patch on one side of the head. There can be more than on spot on the head, but not evenly placed on both sides of the head. A Broken marked mouse without a spot or patch on one side of the head must be disqualified."

This would decrease the big influence of serendipity in the breeding of pied mice, without decreasing the challenge to breed good pied mice, but increasing the chance to improve size and type of brokens.


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## jessierose2006

You mean like this one- My pied black doe she has one eye/ear spot and no nose spot BUT she only has color down one side of her body


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## SarahY

Please resize your pictures Jessierose2006, they are much too big! 



> Having a nose spot is not the only way to be a nice pied. E.g. having no nose spot but an eye spot instead, often gives better looking brokens. Therefore the rule to disqualify mice without nose spot excludes many very good brokens, without any esthetical reason. The standard could be improved by exchanging the word "nose" against the word "head":


It's not about breeding a 'nice' pied though, Roland! It's about breeding a good broken with a nose spot. The whisker bed is one of the first places that a mouse will lose pigment, so having a spot on the whisker bed makes the variety that much more challenging.

You should see SarahC's brokens, they have lovely size and type. Her's are the typiest marked mice I've seen of any variety.

Sarah xxx


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## Seawatch Stud

I think the fact that the English mouse fancy has flourished, and led the world in the field of exhibiting mice without having to seek advice from Roland for well over 100 years is good enough for me. It's unbelievably arrogant of you Roland, to think you always know best. You have been in the English mouse club for five minutes, and do not even show mice in Germany. It's of no consequence to me what someone with zero experience of exhibiting mice thinks of the NMC standards. I'll give you an example of tradition. When someone joins the NMC, they keep quiet, and learn from the experienced exhibitors, until they have something worthwhile to say. So how about you take some advice, instead of always dishing it out.


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## geordiesmice

Maybe roland wants too change the standard because he sells that type of Mouse from his Mousery lol.


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## jessierose2006

please... i did not start this topic for it to become a place of jesting and finger pointing... 

I admit i was at fault for my part of the debate but i was also looking at completely different mouse standard that wasnt exactly up to par. and i thank Sarah for giving me a site which is exactly what i was looking for.

PS -sorry i have no idea why those pics are so big... i have never had an issue before from copying from photobucket.


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## jessierose2006

On a side note: So i should cull any mice that have no whisker bed color in order to improve my marked class?

Will no nose spot result in more no nose spot mice?


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## SarahY

I'm not a broken breeder but I've seen mice with no nose spots produce mice with nose spots. Willowdragon on here recently had such a litter:

http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5757&start=0
The first page has pictures of the parents with no nose spots, on the second page there are good pictures of the babies.

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006

ok. now heres another question... I have a black fox/tan that has a tail half white and a tiny head spot and possibly one tiny side spot where the colors meet at the belly .would he be considered a piebald? or just a carrier? his brother is a black that has a half white tail. a tiny headspot and a spot on half his belly. is this also a pied?


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## bethmccallister

Chances are your black and tan is a piebald carrier with little k factors and you might get some good results mixing the mouse with a high concentration of k factors or white spots with the spotted carrier with little k factors...it could balance things out a bit. I'm still new at this and learning about piebalds so I could be wrong but I learned this all from Roland's website and I believe his information to be a valuable resource. This may have already been posted for you but it's worth stating again...http://www.repage7.de/member/drofi/piebald.html.


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## SarahC

jessierose2006 said:


> On a side note: So i should cull any mice that have no whisker bed color in order to improve my marked class?
> 
> Will no nose spot result in more no nose spot mice?


The nose spot isn't a requirement in your standard for mice so you needn't strive for it at all.If I were you I would select firstly for health and size then consider markings.


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## jessierose2006

so... what i got from Rolands Page is that...

my tan/fox is a pied with high K factors as he has tail spot and headspot
where as my black is a pied with low K factors as he has tail, head, and belly spot.

right?

or would they be considered Pied carriers?


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## bethmccallister

I believe that is correct.


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## jessierose2006

correct that they are considered pied? or pied carriers with low/ high K factors. sorry.


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## bethmccallister

:lol: It can be hard to tell if a mouse is for sure a pied carrier, as far as whether he is just a carrier or actually pied I would say depends on his parents and the size of the head spot. I've had a pied carrier that had a tiny little head spot and tail spot and I knew he was only a carrier because his mom was pied and his dad was for sure not. I used him for a breeding to get piebalds and he produced over half when he should have only produced 25% according to a pungent (sp?) square.

The other one in the picture of the white mouse with little black spots is definitely Piebald.


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## bethmccallister

On the other hand I've had a mouse that I had hoped would be a piebald carrier and was not. I had chosen her because she was all black except for a large white tail tip which I learned later was only a fault in her black self variety.


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## Roland

> It's not about breeding a 'nice' pied though, Roland! It's about breeding a good broken with a nose spot. The whisker bed is one of the first places that a mouse will lose pigment, so having a spot on the whisker bed makes the variety that much more challenging.


Phil, there is no need to start a personal offensive, this just confirms most of the points 1-10 from my former mail. I did not know that the standards of the NMC are such a hot iron. Please do not take the discussions too seriously.
Sarah, well, if it's about breeding challenging goals and first places where mice lose pigment, disqualify all pied bucks who do not have one white and one black ball. This is really challenging.  
Just relaxe.

Best regards, Roland


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## jessierose2006

well his father had a white spot on its tail. and threw the spotting on 2 babies, 2 solid blacks, and 3 PEW/ himis


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## SarahY

> Sarah, well, if it's about breeding challenging goals and first places where mice lose pigment, disqualify all pied bucks who do not have one white and one black ball. This is really challenging.
> Just relaxe.


Because the standard says a nose spot, not different coloured balls  I am perfectly relaxed, I assure you. I'm finding it pretty humourous to tell you the truth! Would you tell the Kennel Club that they should change the standard so that rottweilers are to be completely black, with no tan markings, because you like them better that way? Don't think so! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## Seawatch Stud

Roland, if you don't wish people to take issue with what you say, you should give more thought to what you say, and how you say it. But that's not it is it? You say these things on purpose because you get some kind of pleasure in upsetting people. This is not the first time you have been deliberately inflammatory in your posts. The remarks you make are calculated to cause offence, and to diminish the viewpoint of others. Do not presume to talk down to me like you talk down to others on this forum, because I will not stand for it. Do not tell me to relax. I do not try and second guess you in matters relating to genetics, and I resent it when you cast aspersions on others in their field of expertise. I think you owe Sarah C an apology for your rude and ill considered comments. Sarah C is one of the most respected exhibitors in the U.K. and frankly deserves far more respect given to her opinions than you have shown on this thread.


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## SarahC

Well thank you Phil but I didn't actually have an opinion to start with,merely enquired of a mouser in the U.S.A if they had to have a nose spot.No one has even asked for a standard change and if it was changed for some reason then I would move on to striving to match that standard.What else are you supposed to do if showing is your hobby?Clearly Roland has been carrying a man bag full of meanness that he has been waiting to crow bar into a conversation where it didn't even fit and even when jollied along carried on and on and on.Fortunately this is a democracy and we can choose who we do and don't liaise with.Still not fuming Roland,just taken aback really.So sorry Jessierose this thread will be made tidy again.


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## jessierose2006

Thank you sarah i know i had requested my topic not be turned into a place of mean jests. And as it seems my topic is of no more importance and will not be further anwsered due to this bickering or what you want to call i would like my topic locked so no more may take place. I tried to be polite and it seems that isnt considered so

Please Lock This Topic.

Sorry it came to this but i refuse to have a topic turned into this becuase of my stupid questions.


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## SarahC

your question wasn,t stupid,it was a good one.


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## SarahY

I agree with SarahC, there was nothing wrong with your question at all.

Sarah xxx


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## DomLangowski

Topic locked as per posters request.


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