# Cinnamon



## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

Pushing aside my blue agouti project, I'm working on cinnamon.

What I would like to know is this: will I get cinnamon from the first litter of my chocolate x agouti pair, or will I need to breed one of the offspring back to dad, or brother to sister in order to get cinnamon? I'm thinking it's the latter, but I figured I'd ask just to make sure. Right now I've got three separate litters from agouti does, all bred to the same chocolate buck, and some of the babies look lighter in color than others. It's easy to see that most will be regular agouti, but the lighter ones have me a bit confused.

I'll try posting pictures later this evening when I get home.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Choc is recessive so a mouse needs two copies b/b. Your agouti mice will have at least one B, if they have never thrown cinnamon or choc I'd assume them to be B/B (you could be lucky and one will be a carrier but plan for the worst I say).

So assuming the agouti don't carry choc (if they do yes you can get cin in the first gen) all the babies will be 
A/a B/b so will be agouti carrying choc and non agouti.
Breed the babies together and you can get, agouti, black, choc and cinnamon.
If you bred them back to the choc parent you can get agouti, black, choc and cinnamon as well but you will have more chance of getting choc and cinnamon.

So I would keep all the does from your current litters and put them back to your choc buck but keep in mind the cinnamon s from that breeding will all only have 1 agouti gene so will be A/a b/b so you will then need to breed out the a gene. But you can use your choc buck for that later on.

First get you cinnamon numbers up by breeding cin to cin, some will be A/a and some will be A/A. Any that produce choc both parents are A/a. Once your numbers are up note down who you know has that a. One's you don't know about breed to your choc, if they are A/a 50% chance of choc, if A/A 0% chance of choc. So any with all agouti litters to the choc are most likely A/A ( I say most likely as you could be unlucky that one is A/a and no babies inherited its a). Once you know who is A/a and who is most likely A/A if you have enough A/A remove the A/a does and there litters (don't keep any babies from the test breedings to the choc they will all be A/a) if you don't have enough A/A breed cin to cin again to get more cinnamon s and test the new does and hopefully you will get some more A/A. You can test bucks In the same way breed them to a choc doe (or you can use black it's only the a gene your testing for). 
Eventually you should be as to breed out the a gene.


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## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

Thank you PPVallhunds, your response was incredibly informative. I'll do as you say, and see how it goes!


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

No problem good luck


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## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

So something weird happened with two of my agouti x chocolate litters!

Most of the babies were black or agouti, but from one mother, a black-eyed orange/beige-colored baby popped out. 
From another mother, two pink-eyed babies of the same color came up.

The babies don't look how my champagnes did when they were that age, and the one with black eyes couldn't be champagne anyway... but recessive yellow could've been passed down from the grand-dam, I suppose. She was a chocolate brindle that threw recessive yellow babies from time to time. I don't think it would have anything to do with the odd-ball babies' colors, but two of the agouti mothers are also tan, and the father is tan.

I'll put up some pictures I snapped last night, when I can get them off the camera. Until then, any ideas?


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

RY sounds like your best bet, but until we get pics it's just guess work. However, I have had certain recessive genes hide in my mousery for 10-12 generations and suddenly pop up again, so RY from the grand mother is entirely possible.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

I'd go with ry, I've just had long hair pop up in my Siamese, I never used a long hair mouse in the line but the half sister of the orignal buck I bred one litter from (and only bred his son once) to start the line she was a long hair so that buck I used once over two years ago was a carrier as was his son I used once. So it's been hiding for all that time. That's the problem with ressives you can think you have bred it out but it may still be hiding there.


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## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

Got the pictures!

First is the pink-eyed oddball baby from an agouti tan mother and chocolate tan father.
Father's mother was a chocolate brindle (chocolate brindling on an RY background) and father a black tan.
Mother's mother was an agouti tan and father a blue tan (blue tan father carried chocolate, too).

At a first glance, I would say there's two agouti tans and a black tan in that pile.










Next are the two litters of an agouti self and agouti tan, the father being the same chocolate tan as before.
I don't know anything about these two agouti's family trees, they were both adopted.

In this group I also see agouti tan and black tan.










But while checking up on everyone last night, I also noticed two weird little bubs from another pairing.
The mother is a long-haired blue tan, but the father is either silver or blue. I don't know, because I was late to pull out the bucks from her last litter... so the father is also her son.

There's 5 blue tans, 1 silver, these two weird ones, and another one that looks like a very light satin RY, or a satin champagne (mother carries chocolate, it's possible her offspring also carried chocolate).




























To me, they look ticked. The chances of them being brindle are very slim, as neither of the dam's parents were brindled. None of the bucks that could have impregnated the mother were brindled, either. I guess it's a possibility that these two are sooty RY's? But they honestly don't look that way to me... so I need some opinions!


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## Onyx (May 2, 2010)

Heya, where abouts are you located? I can maybe help you get a little ahead on the cinnamon front


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## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm in Vermont, USA. c:


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## Onyx (May 2, 2010)

Ah, well, that is a shame lol


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

There's a breeder in Maryland who's got cinnamon (mostly accidentally) from the lines we imported a year and a half ago. She gets them out of her red breeding, though I think she's passing the reds out to focus on her tans, so you may end up with cinnamon tan. Either way, contact Mason Dixon Rodentry (she has a website). She'll know who in the area has them, even if she's already passed them on.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

I have cinnamons, but I'm all the way in CA, so good luck there! Most likely those babies are RY. They would be considered "poor" coloring, since they do have the sootiness, and their color is pale and washed out. I happen to love RYs, they are one of my main lines.


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## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

Well it turns out that the 2 odd-colored babies in the first litter are Argente and Champagne. 
The baby in the second litter (I believe) is cinnamon. It looks just like the poor cinnamons on Google, and it's definitely ticked.

So I ended up with...

LITTER 1:
-Black Tan
-Black Self
-Agouti Tan
-Cinnamon

LITTER 2:
-Agouti Tan
-Black Tan
-Argente
-Champagne Tan
-Chocolate Tan


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

As you have tans one of the parents to both litters must be a tan (so either you choc buck is a choc tan or the two agouti does are agouti tans) as tan can't be carried.

As you got pink eye you buck carries it as well as the doe of the second litter, and she also carries choc.

I'm assuming the choc buck is a tan as you got agouti tan in the litters as they would have got the agouti gene from the mother
Buck
a/at b/b D/# C/# P/# S/#

Doe 2
A/# B/b D/# C/# P/p S/#

Doe 1
A/a B/b D/# C/# P/# S/#


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

RY would be my guess. Whose lines are these descended from? That could help you figure it out, as some of us have RY in the tans and some don't.


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