# A couple problems that could be trivial... or serious?



## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

2 out of my 3 angels seem to have problems. I didn't expect them to be perfect because I got them from Petco (the breeders never called/emailed me back), but they are still very special to me, and because I'm the mommy, I worry.

My little black mouse, Sweetie Pie, (bless her heart) has a little hunchback. She was flat when I got her from Petco, but once I got her home, she seemed to crawl around with a little hump. At first I thought maybe she was a little timid; she seems to keep from the other mice unless she is in a sleeping pile with them, and she doesn't like to go down the tubes. Now I'm thinking that maybe she's a bit older than I originally thought; she may be handicapped and simply _cant_ go down the tubes. 
I didn't think this really mattered, because she's actually really active; she has a perfect tail and is well balanced, her weight is fine, and she loves to run on her wheel, climb on the bars of the cage like a little monkey, and she loves crawling all over my arms and in my clothes and hair. Is there anyone else who thinks it's maybe just a physical defect?

Angel Face, a grey mouse, is talkative, I mean "blahblahblahblahblahblah!"... or is she? She doesn't squeak loudly or sharply; it sounds more like twittering and she snuffles sometimes. It's extremely cute, but I'm worried she _actually _may be sneezing! I use carefresh bedding, so I can't imagine what she could be "sneezing" about. She also isn't showing any other signs of respritory illness (no gummy eyes or labored breathing - nothing!). She could just be getting used to the air of her new home, or trying to communicate. Then again, none of the other mice make these noises individualy or in reply to hers. It also only happens when she is awake (she doesn't suddenly sneeze and wake-up when she's asleep). Is it possible that she may just be a talker?

Angel Face's poops are also a little wet and gummy. They don't come out as dry pellets like Sweetie Pie and Baby Doll. I'm not sure why, because I haven't given her any "fresh" treats. We offered a small peice of banana, but she said "no thank you" and we gave it to Sweetie Pie instead (she loves to eat *^^*, she even gets carb coma and falls asleep in the bowl sometimes, it's funny). Angel Face has only had dry mouse blocks and water. Should I maybe try and give her a peice of bread?

Am I just an over-worried mommy (first time with mice, after all) or should I get all this checked out?
Thanks guys 
-Allie


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

A lot of mice have little hunchbacks, I wouldn't worry at all if she's otherwise behaving normally and her movement is not showing signs of pain or restriction. A hunch would point to her being a bit older though, it's something that tends to get more obvious as the mouse ages.

Mice should be silent to our ears, so it does sound like Angel Face could do with a trip to the vet and some antibiotics. How long have you had the mouse? These symptoms can be brought on with the stress of moving house rather being an actual illness.

Again, runny poo could be stress and a change of diet. Keep her on the dry blocks and water for a few more days and see if it clears up, it should do. If she starts to look thin or pinched around the back end, or listless and dull, she needs to go to the vets. I'm sure it'll clear up on it's own given time though.

Hope this helps you!

Sarah xxx


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

I adopted them yesterday morning. Just a little more detail... Angel Face lived in carefresh bedding at Petco too, so I don't think the bedding is the problem. So you may be right, it could be stress from the move. She's _acting_ perfectly fine; she actually seems to really like her humans and she's the most active one *^^*! I nicknamed her Houdini, because she's always sneaking around, climbing on the bars, looking for holes... I'm sure her intentions are good and she's just making sure it's "escape-proof"  (yeah, right) The poo isn't so much runny/liquidy as it is gooey... seems like something, but maybe not FULL-BLOWN diarrhea (but then, what do I know?) It's still pellet-shaped but a bit bigger and wetter. It probably did come from the block switch - I believe mine are slightly different, but they _are_ "mouse" blocks.

Thanks for your expert advice, Sarah. Like I said, it's my first time with mice and as you can imagine I'm watching them like a hawk... only not as hungry. I had planned to take her (Angel Face) to the vet if any other symptoms showed up, or if her noises started to get more snuffly or excessive. I just didn't want to wait until it was too late, you know :/ I'll keep a good eye out for the poo and snuffs. Sound like a plan?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Sounds like rehoming stress to me. Let them get a couple of days quiet with minimal handling, and I bet they'll both settle down a bit.


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

Just an update;

I did what you said and left Angel Face alone for a while. I did let her know I was still there, however. I'm still the mommy, right? I showed her I still cared by reaching into the cage and letting her sniff my hand and paw it at her own leisure. It's always sweet when I reach in and Babydoll leaps right on my hand *^^* she's so curious and happy around her humans; I've never owned so loving a creature.

I plan to take Angel Face to the vet. I picked her up once and, though still very active and not displaying any other symptoms, her breathing was very snuffled and puffy while I cradled her and while she was crawling on my arms. It worried me so much I cried,but it hasn't really happened since then. Could it be maybe she simpy doesn't like to be handled by me very much? She's been making less noise today (hopefully even less tommorow), and none of the other mice are making any noise or showing signs of sickness. I know, I know, I'm a worry-wart. But it's so hard to find good mouse advice out there and I'm glad I have you guys to get a second opinion from. Angel Face is scheduled for the vet on wednesday morning. Just to see her will be $43. Money is no object, I'd pay *anything* to get Angel Face well. But given the situation (the noises coming and going, with more "going" than "coming", and the other mice being healthy) does the vet visit still seem necessary?


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

The vet will probably prescribe Baytril (enrofloxacin) antibiotic or they might give you something else like a Tetracycline. You should tell the vet that you only want to dose the mouse that is ill because they normally tell you do dose the drinking water, so all the mice (if she is housed with them) will all be drinking it. So unless you want them all blanket treated, I would suggest the vet knows this. She sounds as though she does need a couple of weeks on baytril at least. Pet mouse owners usually dose baytril on a small (5mm or less) piece of dry tea biscuit three times a day (morning, afternoon and night). Mice love sweet tea biscuits or plain digestives. You can dampen the biscuit a little before adding the medication to it as this allows it to soak in. Leave it on a side plate to soak in and then offer it to her when she`s awake. Mice usually take it, although some don`t like the Baytril taste.

You sound as though you love your wee mice and talking to your vet is always a good thing to do if you have one with noisy breathing. She can live with her cagemates as this will help her to cope. If you don`t breed mice, there is no need to quarantene her from the mice she normally lives with. Seperating her could cause her anxiety if she`s used to being part of a group, so if it was me, after she has seen your vet, I would put her back with her pals.


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

thanks racingmouse. i caught her wiggling her tail (another sign of annoyance/frustration), so it COULD be rehoming stress, but now i have caught the other mice sniffling/sneezing every now and then, so the "blanket treatment" you speak of sounds like a good way to go at this time.

thanks everybody *^^*


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

It won`t do any harm to treat them all Alliemouse. Probably wise if some of the others are showing sniffling or sneezing. This is best treated early and hard to prevent it from going from a simple few sneezes to something more chronic. Best of luck. x


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

Great news, and okay news guys. i took Angel Face to the vet this morning. My boyfriend is very medically inclined and because he asked all the right questions and said all the right things, we were able to get antibiotics for all three mice, without having to do cultures, for the cost of one! I only spent $55 to cure all 3 of my babies *^^*!!

Just one more question before I let this topic die...
We were perscribed .5 mg of Trimeth-Sulfa twice a day. I gave Angel Face the medication and she appeared to have some sort of allergic reaction... she stopped moving around and her poor little body was just _heaving_ so hard for air. I seriously thought I was going to lose her. I sobbed and shouted at Ken to hurry and get in the car so we could get her home, it horrified me so much, "Come on, breath baby, just breath!" I said, it was all I could do, I was so frightned! After a while, she started breathing a bit better and moving a bit more. I was releived, but still very shaken. Is that normal?!
We gave the medication to Sweetie Pie and Babydoll and they became very lethargic and went to sleep shortly, all in different areas of the cage. They were too slow to make it into a pile together. Is this just a side-effect?


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

I would stop the medication for now to be completely honest until kallan (our resident vet) can read your post and ask you some questions about dosing and what your own vet said. The behaviour you describe sounds to me as though the mice are either reacting to the drug badly, or are stressed by the taste.

The paper I have here relating to Trimethoprim Sulfa states:

Brands: Tribrissen, Cotrim, Bactrim, Septra
Bactericidal, broad-spectrum combination (antibiotic) active against many secondary infections, but NOT Mycoplasma. Great for urinary tract infections. TASTES TERRIBLE!!! So this alone will make dosing your mice difficult. Bayrtil (enrofloxacin) might have been the better option.

How did your vet say to dose this AllieMouse? In food, in water..? It does`nt seem to be the drug of choice for respiratory issues? Mycoplasma is usually the bacterial culprit for many of the breathing issues mice and rats have. So more often than not, the drug prescibed should reflect that.


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

It's too late. one of my angels died this morning. i gave Angel Face and Sweetie Pie their medicine via syringe. they are doing fine, eating, running. Babydoll she had the same sort of allergic reaction that Angel face had when she had her first dose. this was her third time having it. before she would just walk around slowly, eat slowly, then gradually regain her energy. today was different. i sat her beside me on the bed after she had her dose (which ws actually smaller than usual), and she started heaving, with all her might, her mouth wide open and her throat clicking. we tried to prepare a small benedryl shot to open her airways and calm her but we were just too late. she wet the bed, then started losing her balance as she scurried under a pillow.. i think she didn't want us to she what was happening; she didn't want to frighten us.. i already was frightened, so i lifted the pillow and i saw her staggering dizzily,, confused circles. my heart dropped,, i reached out to help her and her tiny little body just collapsed into my hands. i lost it. i couldn't beleive it. ken gave her the benedryl shot, we tried to give her CPR a best we could, pump her heart. we were considering giving her a small shock, but by then, i knew it was already too late. she was gone. just in case there was any life let in her, we prepared an overdose of morphine. she went out pain free at the last second, but the last minutes must have been so horrifying and painful. i will never forgive the vets for not giving me baytril instead. i probably will never forgive myself for not acting sooner. i lost my little Babydoll. she was the kindest one. she would just plop into your hand and take long naps with us. she would kiss us, play with us. she groomed the other mice; cared for them.. strawberries were her favorite treats, they matched her beautiful eyes. she had such a sweet smile and always, she loved us so much. we loved her so much too. she was our special angel. she was the last one who deserved this. the VERY. LAST. ONE. she was the most loving creature on this planet - humans and animals alike. it shouldn't have been her. she was only tiny baby... so sweet so tiny. so brave. i wish it could have been me instead.. never Babydoll.. the world so desperately needs creatures like her. full of nothing but pure love for life and living things. she may be only a mouse, but everyone could learn a lesson of kindness, generosity, and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE from Babydoll. i won't let the world forget her. her life was short, but it was so important. it made such a difference in mine and ken's life.

please, PLEASE let me speak with your vet. i couldn't bear to experience this again. our hearts are completely broken. PLEASE help us.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I wouldn't beat yourself up over this. It is horribly sad, but sometimes giving them oral medicines is enough to suffocate them if they are already having a hard time breathing, or to stress them out enough in this fragile state. There's really no way around orally medicating, or if there is, I'd love to know. I've had this happen once on baytril, even. I am sorry for your loss, but please, know you did the best you could and it was pretty much either don't treat at all or give it a try. Petco should know that the mice they just sold were sick, so they can treat the tank they were in or surveil it.

I am curious, what is the benedryl dosage for a mouse? I've never heard of using it on mice.


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

I would stop this medication immediately (you probably already have). Go back to your doctor and ask for Baytril which can be dosed on a small piece of biscuit and much much easier to get a mouse to take. Poor sweet babies, so sorry that you're having this horrible experience.


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

everyone, thank you so much for your support. not everyone understands how hard it can be to lose a mouse; especilly one as sweet as Babydoll. some will roll their eyes over how sad someone can be over a $2 feeder mouse. or they'll pat you on the back and say, "sorry to hear that, man!" they just don't get it. i feel like i've lost an infant. this is the worst day of my life. i appreciate everyone's understanding. we would like to keep her ashes in a little urn, with strawberries on it. she would have loved something whimsical like that. she was always such a happy little baby. i feel so bad about how she left us. she didn't deserve to feel fear ever in her life. hopefully when she dropped into my hand she felt all the warmth and love her mommy had for her. if there's a heaven in the here-after, she will definately be getting the best cage, and she will play in strawberry feilds. i'll be good for the rest of my life if it means i can see her again when i die. i'm not even a religious person, but i was convinced from the moment i met her that she was an angel. i plan to write about her. i can't just let something so sweet and loving fade away. the world needs her story; they _need_ to know her.

Ken is heartbroken, especially. she was defintely daddy's little girl. more than anything, she loved snuggling up with her daddy to join him in an after-work nap. when we cup her hands and wiggle our thumbs, we can almost feel her sitting there, being petted; happy and content, waiting for her strawberry.

i doubt she suffocated because of the medicine administration. we didn't pump it into her mouth. she sweetly sat in our hands and calmy licked it out of the tip of the syringe. it was most certainly some anaphylactic reaction... it happened about 7-10 minutes after we gave it to her. her throat has swollen, and was clicking as she gasped for air. we tried to give her the only emergency anit-histimine we had around; Benedryl. we had once given Angel Face a small shaving of fiber for her poops and it helped, so we tried to use the same method for the Benedryl. not sure what the actual dose was, but it's a pince of shavings that would fit on your pinky-tip. we tried to dissolve/dilute the scrapings into a syringe and give it to her orally, but we didn't get it to her fast enough. from the moment she fell in my hand, i thought it was too late, but still we tried. we popped the needle on the syringe and tried to give it to her I.V. it was already too late.

the thought of rushing her to the emergency animal hospital did cross my mind, but it's a long drive. we wouldn't have made it.

ken is versed in electronics and wants to know how many joules to power a make-shift defibrilator. he is able to produce a small *zap*, but needs that *zap* to be mouse-safe. if he knew the joule #, he could actually build a mousy defibrilator.

i, personally, would like to know if there is a way to give a mouse CPR. is there any other emergency techniques we should learn?


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I have heard the amount of breath you actually use is so little that it is very easy to actually rupture their lungs.
This is opinion only but I believe when our animals leave us it truely is their time. I know this because I've had them hang on in the face of terrible illness only to recover. I've also had them pass for seemingly little reason. When they do die I know they are at peace finally and they chose their own time of passing. I don't know that I would go so far as to defibrulate an animal, as much as I love them.

You did more than many pet mouse owners would do and got her looked at and listened to your vet. You did everything right. I would just urge you to know she is at peace and you are a great mouse parent.


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## Hillcrest (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi all, I just read this scenario. I have some comments about it also. I am new to mice but have raised hamsters for years. The hamsters seems to love the taste of the Trimethoprim Sulfa much more than the baytril. They take it like a treat. I thankfully have not had to treat many mice for any health issues yet. But it also sounds more like them choking on the amount that was given. Such a tiny amount is needed and it doesn't take much to have it go down the wrong way when they swallow. Aspiration would sound just like what you described also. Especially in a compromised breathing satate already. Sorry for your loss.


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

Hillcrest said:


> But it also sounds more like them choking on the amount that was given. Such a tiny amount is needed and it doesn't take much to have it go down the wrong way when they swallow.


i did NOT choke my mouse. this event occured 10 minutes after the medicine was given to her. also, it was .005 ml. that's less than ONE line on the syringe. i didn't even have to pump it down her mouth, she licked it out of the TIP of the syringe. she didn't drown.
Angel Face suffered the _same_ attack, is from the _same _litter, and had the _same _drug. statistics and genetics say it was a reaction; plain and simple.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear you lost Babydoll, Alliemouse 

Sarah xxx


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

SarahY said:


> I'm so sorry to hear you lost Babydoll, Alliemouse
> 
> Sarah xxx


i'm in a lot of pain sarah; i appreciate your kindness. everyone, thank you for your support. hopefully you'll see a book about her soon. i plan to write one.


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

I`m so sorry to hear about your loss AlliMouse and you sound like a very sincere, compassionate person indeed. Mice can have that hold on you when you get very close to them and as pets, they truly can become like little people.

Babydoll could have been having severe lung/heart issues going on which would explain her gasping and abdominal breathing patterns. It`s difficult to say if her death was due to this drug, or because she was stressed and her breathing became panicked. If your other two girls are not showing the same sysmptoms and seem okay, I would still ring the veterinary practice who saw Babydoll and tell them what happened and if there could have been a reaction to this drug? If your worried at all, have them change it for Baytril at NO cost to you.

If you ever need an antibiotic again, just ask for Baytril (enrofloxacin). It`s the only small animal antibiotic that`s licenced as far as I know, but vets can and do prescribe other drugs if they know the correct dose. It`s the dosing that can be tricky for a small mouse.

You and your partner should have a sit down and a nice little cup of tea in rememberance of babydoll and reflect. I bury all my departed mice in my garden and it`s nice to have little painted pebbles or grave markers for them. Sentimental I know, but it`s nice to remember them. x


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## AnnB (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm so sorry you couldn't save Babydoll but as Racingmouse has said, she could have had severe health problems (that not even baytril could cure). When their breathing is really laboured, I worry that just handling them to give them medicine may stress them too much. It's always difficult to know what to do for the best.


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

racingmouse said:


> I`m so sorry to hear about your loss AllieMouse and you sound like a very sincere, compassionate person indeed. Mice can have that hold on you when you get very close to them and as pets, they truly can become like little people.


Thank you for your condolences, racingmouse. I'm feeling a little better. Beleive it or not, my favorite mouse, Sweetie Pie, is starting to act like Babydoll used to! She's alot more calm and loving and seems to want to nap with me. Call me irrational, but I feel like some part of Babydoll's spirit is still here. She slept by Sweetie Pie more and more often before she went. Maybe in their little ultra-sonic conversations, she was telling Sweetie Pie to take good care of Mommy and Daddy.



racingmouse said:


> Babydoll could have been having severe lung/heart issues going on which would explain her gasping and abdominal breathing patterns. It`s difficult to say if her death was due to this drug, or because she was stressed and her breathing became panicked. If your other two girls are not showing the same sysmptoms and seem okay, I would still ring the veterinary practice who saw Babydoll and tell them what happened and if there could have been a reaction to this drug? If your worried at all, have them change it for Baytril at NO cost to you.


Babydoll was actually the most "un-sick" one out of them all. Angel Face was our original sickling; she also had the first attack but survived it. I had assumed that Angel Face was just stressed out from the vet, the car ride and didn't like the smell of the gas station we were at. Once we got her home, she was fine, so I assumed it was stress. Babydoll showed no prior breathing problems, just a couple sneezes, so I thought it best to include her in the blanket treatment. She was never stressed, always calm, and as said, the medicine didn't even have to be pumped, she just calmly licked it out of the tip, I didn't even have to scruff her ears... but after 10 minutes, she started heaving and just like that she was gone. I talked to the receptionist about it. She was very sad for me. she took all the notes she could and said she would show it to a doctor immediately and also to the vet we spoke to so we could get another medication. We did our best to get Baytril, but the vet said it was too strong to start off with. I'm pretty sure she'll let us have it now.



racingmouse said:


> You and your partner should have a sit down and a nice little cup of tea in rememberance of babydoll and reflect. I bury all my departed mice in my garden and it`s nice to have little painted pebbles or grave markers for them. Sentimental I know, but it`s nice to remember them. x


Ken is half Japanese; we created a beautiful casket out of a box for her it has a little plastic window on it, in which we placed a picture I sketched of her (she was sitting in Ken's hand, like a seat, with her little head popped out over his thumb, smiling, with her tiny little paws folded underher chin). We placed the cakset in a Japanese home-shrine (they look like this http://www.japanstyle.info/wordpress/wp ... 25x300.jpg ) We lit chamomele inscence for her, rang a tibetan bowl and we each said a silent prayer. I promised that I would live by her loving example, and tell the world about her until I saw her again in the Here-After. Normally I would find something like that cheesy, being that I'm not religious at all... but when someone you love very much passes away, things like that become very important. We sat on the couch, remembering her until the inscence burned out. We plan to cremate her in our favorite field, and then let her ashes blow away in the wind, to spread her love all over the world.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Sorry for your loss AllieMouse thats very touching what you have wrote.


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## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

geordiesmice said:


> Sorry for your loss AllieMouse thats very touching what you have wrote.


It's all from my heart. I cared for her _deeply_. I'm also of the opinion that she was a very special, very _important_, creature. That's why I want to write about her. She made such a big difference in my life.

Ken and I have built a memorial for her in the woods.
Goodbye, sweet little angel. I'll never forget you.










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Please close this thread.


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