# Aggressive Female, how to handle her?



## bonni

We currently have eight female mice. Seven live together very happily in a large, enriched environment (made from a 115 litre tub). There are three pairs of sisters, and two of the sisters are the daughters of one (so the other sister is their aunty).

And then we have Dandelion, who is causing me problems and has for a while now.

Dandelion is an unusually aggressive mouse. She's extraordinarily dominant. Now, I don't have too much problem with that, and I normally let mice sort out their own social order, etc., but she can be slightly insane. A few weeks ago, she got into a fight with our elderly Poppy, who was the longtime boss, and Poppy came out of it with a string of nasty bites down her tail and on her genitals and rump. Not just little nips or pinches, but full-on bites. I found bedding with blood on it, from where Poppy apparently retreated into the hidey house. (I didn't hear the fight; it must have happened when I was away or asleep, or I would have intervened.) Obviously, I separated the two mice at that point, for the well-being of poor old Poppy.

I have also had in with Dandelion one of the other sister pairs, little manx mice (hey, if you haven't got a tail, you can't get it bitten!). She seems to get along well enough with them, but will bully them when it suits her. Last night, she had one in the corner, and the poor little mouse was squeaking and holding up her paws in a submissive pose, but Dandelion just didn't back off (no biting that I could see, but definitely aggression).

I've tried introducing Dandelion to the other mice, and it's fine in a neutral environment. When I've tried her in the big enclosure, she invariably chases and fights. Once, she chased down every other mouse and fought with them (I took her out pretty quickly). Last time we tried, she was okay for an hour or so and then sought out Cocoa, the mother of the two young mice and boss (though she's not a very aggressive boss) and they got into it, and Cocoa had some visible nips on her backside (not bleeding, though, that I could see). I may have overreacted and taken Dandelion out too quickly (i.e., they might have been able to sort it out), but after the biting poor old Poppy got, I'm a bit unwilling to risk injury to the other mice.

I tried housing Dandelion alone, but the poor thing is miserable, and shows signs of distress and depression pretty quickly. When I put the manx sisters in with her, she perked up and was nice to them for several days, and then the menacing and bullying started up again.

Honestly, I don't know what to do with her. I don't want her to suffer, and she hates being alone, but I'm not willing to let her terrorise the other mice.

If anyone has any suggestions as to ways I might sort this out, I'd love to hear them. I even considered getting MORE mice that might be able to live with her, but decided against that. I had hoped that having a quite large, rich environment would help (more places for other mice to hide, play, etc.) but it doesn't seem to make much difference. Should I let her stay with the other mice for a few days and just see if they can sort it out? I've had mice take several days to establish their social grouping, but I've never had one that bit another mouse so hard the poor thing was bleeding, so I'm really at a loss here.


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## Squeakers

She sounds a real mix up!

I have heard of a few tricks,you could try rubbing the mice you want to put in with her with some vaseline on their noses and bdies rubbed in her wet bedding.(Ew,-i know! :lol: ) Or,you said she was happy for the first few days with them,you could try putting the manxes in with her for 2 days,then taking them out and leaving her alone for 2 days,then put them back in again.


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## Cordane

How do you go about introductions? Do you put them in her tank, or her in their tank or do you introduce them again after a cage clean?


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## bonni

Cordane said:


> How do you go about introductions? Do you put them in her tank, or her in their tank or do you introduce them again after a cage clean?


I introduced them in a neutral territory at first. I always do. I also tried putting her in the big enclosure when it hadn't been cleaned, after some separation (I had the pregnant doe and her sister in a breeding tank so everyone got moved around a bit for a few weeks), and that drove her insane. I also tried introducing her to the big enclosure having cleaned it pretty thoroughly with vanilla-alcohol (the stuff you use to clean a fridge), and that was when she was okay for a couple hours and then went and found Cocoa (boss, more or less, of the big enclosure) and they got into a fight with a bit if nipping. Sometimes I do put them all together in a neutral space just to let them socialise and so on, because I keep hoping she might eventually be able to get along. I would dearly love to have them all in the big enclosure; it's more than big enough for everyone and it would save me a fair bit of upkeep.

Right now, I've got the little manx mice in with her and everyone seems to be getting along. I may, indeed, end up putting in company for a couple of days and then taking them out and putting them back, etc... *sigh* I love mice, but I've never had one give me so much headache!


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## Gill

Do you have multimammates in Australia? They can be successfully teamed up with fancy mice, and perhaps, as a multi buck is so much larger than a mouse, she would be cured of her bullying.


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## Fantasia Mousery

Well... Honestly, if it were me, I'd let her be put to sleep. Mice shouldn't be aggressive toward others (be it humans or other mice), and there's clearly something wrong.
You say she's bitten Poppy severely, I say that's crossing a line.

I hope I don't sound too harsh, and I hope you figure out what to do. It's never fun. *hug*


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## candycorn

Jathy said:


> Well... Honestly, if it were me, I'd let her be put to sleep. Mice shouldn't be aggressive toward others (be it humans or other mice), and there's clearly something wrong.
> You say she's bitten Poppy severely, I say that's crossing a line.
> 
> I hope I don't sound too harsh, and I hope you figure out what to do. It's never fun. *hug*


I am with you. I don't tolerate aggressive mice.


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## CathE.

Here are a few tricks to try (which are popular among breeders in Poland), in order:
- neutral ground - scent-less, just bedding (preferably one neither of mice know, like a torn pieces of toilet paper) and drinking water, no food, no house, nothing to fight over
- let them stay there for as long as possible, a whole day would be lovely. They will fall asleep eventually so no greater worry needed about their enternainment
- main cage should go through a heavy cleaning to get rid of _any_ known scents
- prepare main cage with just bedding, water, food and one hideout preferabely small to force mice into socializing, NO TOYS.
- this arrangement should take about a week, week and a half, so they have time to relax and get into business of sorting out the hierarchy
- they will fight, of course, but there's a chance it will be less dramatic
- if they seem to be doing nice after a week, you can add a few toys - just one or two. If they behave nicely after a few days with new toys, you can add more. If they start fighting again, you take out all new toys.

Unfortunately some mice need more time to sort things out and this procedure may need to take even longer.

If none of this works, you could:
- pour some vanilla extract (baking one) on their butts to hide the natural smell
- force yourself to keep the aggresive lady alone - she won't die, I can promise you that. You can always let her spend a few hrs daily with another mouse she gets on well with. Separation has one important idea: the rest of mice will sort a new order in the meantime, so the separated one will have to accept the new order, depending on how strong the new Alpha is.

Hope this helps...


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## GibblyGiblets

I agree with those who said to put her down, as sad as it is, some aggression in females is ok, my group squabble all the time, especially now that the youngest girls are maturing, and they are all related (one is mother to some, and grandmother to the rest) I've noticed the fighting gets a bit more intense when someone seems to go into heat (lots of genital sniffing ect, whether they are actually in heat, I dunno) but the fights are never serious, and serious full on attacks and constant aggression is usually a sign of some sort of neurological thing going on, a brain tumor or something with her psyche.

I had one alot like yours once, she started out fine as a youngster, then over the months got meaner and meaner and meaner, to the point of constantly bullying the less dominant girls and constantly fighting the dominant girl, who would not give up her spot at the top, I put up with it for a while, because the mean girl had been born to my lines and honestly I liked her markings too much to cull her xD, until one day I saw that there had been what looked like a murder in the mouse cage, which infact is what it was, the dominant female had been killed, and another of the females badly beat up.

I knew exactly who it was, and being younger at the time, and kinda ticked off, I plucked the mean girl out and threw her to my ferrets :?

unnecessary story was unnecessary :roll: , but I still agree with culling her


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## firestarter

is she aggressive when being handled, if so iv found letting them bite you a few times and not reacting normally makes leads them to give up trying, if you could get her so you could handle her alot she might make a perfect pet for someone who wants to spend alot of time with there mouse! as mice that lack other mice for social company will often interact with other animals/people instead (or so iv found to be the case).... though i would say that culling her does seem reasonable if you cant find her a good home or fit her into yours!


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## CathE.

I wouldn't let myself put down any animal just because it's aggressive. I would _at least_ try to do an x-ray to see if this indeed isn't caused by a tumor or other internal anomaly. You can always part with such a mouse and offer her to a more determined owner who is willing to try and tame her. Just because we can't handle a case doesn't mean others won't.


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## bonni

firestarter said:


> is she aggressive when being handled


No, she's perfectly lovely to people.

Right at the moment, she and three of the other mice are in a semi-neutral environment under the supervision of my daughter, and instead of Dandelion being aggressive, she's finding out that the others are not going to allow her to dominate THEM. Lots of squeaking, no biting at all. I'm still hoping to get them to sort it out.

I did consider culling her, but I'm not quite there with it. I wasn't intending to breed her or anything (my breeding has all be accidental thus far, though not my own carelessness; mouse was pregnant when I got her), so that's not a concern at all. But if I can't find a way to house her happily and comfortably, I might have to go that route. I hope I don't have to, but I'm not saying never.


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## CathE.

Glad to read that.

Culling should never be done out of pure conveninece but only when it's absolutely neccessary. In this case, if she's ok outside the cage, there is no reason to consider remving her - she's not unconditionally aggressive it seems. She may aswell be the type which can live only with one companion. In smal groups, the dominance rules are way different and irregular. The bigger the group the more intense the fights get since there's also a wider territory to care for/rule. Just give her a chance.

As long as there's no life endabgered nor owner's health, putting down an animal would be a terribly egoistic thing to do. "Having a problem - kill it". A no-no in my case.


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## bonni

After reading this thread over, I decided to try something a bit radical and observation-intensive. I took out EVERYTHING but the base substrate litter and the water bottle from the very big enclosure, and put ALL the female mice in it. And then I watched them very intently for several hours (okay, I was watching TV at the same time, or at least listening to it; I wasn't just staring at mice). There was the usual squeaking and chasing and few non-injuring squabbles. Four of the mice (two very young ones and two quite docile and submissive ones) pretty much just tried to keep out of it and ran away whenever there was any chasing (no biting happened that I could see; certainly no one had any marks). The other adult mice who are more dominant or at least not submissive did their share of squeaking, running, chasing, etc., but after several hours, they seemed to have come to an arrangement of some sort. There is still a bit of squeaky-chase today, but they've all been sleeping together and sharing various hidey houses (there are three, plus a hammock, plus several tubes, plus a hanging soft tube, so plenty of places to go if you don't want to be around other mice!). I've had them all out today and checked every one of them for bites, pinches, any sign of any injury and I see nothing, and they all seem to be reasonably happy and in good spirits.

I think the frequent re-introductions I was making (where I'd get them all together to socialise) has helped, and I know for sure she hated being on her own, and every time she'd be aggressive, I'd take her companions away, so maybe it made some impact on her little mousey brain. That and the fact that there are two mice who give as good as they get and a third who will not be dominated, no matter what (though she does get along well with other mice and always has). Maybe Dandelion figured out that the odds were just too great and figured she'd better settle in and play nicely. I don't know. Mice are strange creatures sometimes.

I still don't know why/how she bit poor old Poppy so much; they were in a much smaller enclosure then (it was what prompted me to make the very big enclosure we have now, in fact), and I think maybe Poppy overestimated her own ability to scrap with a much younger, stronger mouse. But everyone, including Poppy, looks fine and free from distress now, and I'm not seeing or hearing any unusual arguing or fighting now. I'm going to have to keep a very close watch on them and check frequently for injury or other signs of bullying, but I'm hoping maybe it's sorted out now. Something seems to be working. *fingers crossed* If they can live together in relative peace, everyone will be a lot happier, I think, including me.

So for now, I'm going to be very attentive and watch closely and check frequently for any sign of problems, and simultaneously think positive thoughts about mice living in relative harmony.  Thanks for all the replies, I did appreciate them all. Certainly lots of food for thought!


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## CathE.

This is great news. I hope ladies can keep it nice for a while now. Best wishes!


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## bonni

Everything seems okay now. I'm seeing a bit of what appears to be barbering, but I'm not positive if it's that or if it's just a scruffy mouse fur (one of the mice in question is pretty old and tends to look like Einstein these days, with wild hair). If it is barbering, it's not severe, and it may have been a one-time thing. I know that barbering can be a sign of stress, so I'm keeping a close watch on it. Otherwise, it seems to be going reasonably well. Something about the dynamic of having several adult mice who just weren't going to run away or be bullied seems to have gotten through to her, and Dandelion is behaving herself now, as far as I can tell.

It's funny how these things work out, sometimes. I was all worked up about how on earth to deal with her, and finally just decided, "Right, this is how it's going to be," and there we go. I'm glad it worked out, and I'm hopeful now that they've come to some sort of group equilibrum dynamic where nobody's getting unduly bullied. Whew.


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## firestarter

so glad there getting on, it can be hard to let things sort themselves out but i guess it works most the time!

I have a tank with 10 males in it at the moment and its funny how they seem to have quarrels then make up by night time to nest together. I do give them alot of food though and plenty of toilet roll tubes


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## CathE.

bonni said:


> I'm glad it worked out, and I'm hopeful now that they've come to some sort of group equilibrum dynamic where nobody's getting unduly bullied. Whew.


Just be aware that hierarchy changes over time, so there is a risk this will happen again - either with the same mouse starring or a new one hungry for dominance.  But I'm sure this time you'll have a few methods in hand to work that out for them if they happen to be unable. Crossing fingers for you and you mouse-y harem, lol! :lol:


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