# open or closed mousery ?



## Roland

Hello,

as we all know or unfortunately have to learn from experience, mice are magnetic for many bacterial and viral diseases, especially of the respiratory tract.
Some of these diseases are transferred by human hands handling the mice.

Many animal laboratories do not allow visitors, even no university stuff who is not involved in careing for the animals, to enter the animal rooms. We could call this a "closed mousery".

What is your stud? An open or a closed mousery? Mine is a closed mousery, especially for people who have rodents at home.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## Jack Garcia

Mine is open in theory but so few people live close enough to visit. If my mice have such weak immune systems that coming into contact with other people is going to kill them, they don't need to be bred from in the first place. I breed them to be healthy and robust. If they're sick, they're culled.


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## SarahC

in theory open but the reality is there's only enough room for me and the mice in the shed.I don't worry about illness as the mice could pick up something at a show.Apart from the odd mouse they don't get anything wrong with them.


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## ian

I think its so rare that anyone is interested enough to go down to my shed that it is effectively closed. Certainly no-one handles the mice although sometimes friends pop down to visit the rabbits which live down there.


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## Erica08

Mine is also open though with the same situation I just don't have anybody really interested in going in.


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## moustress

Mine is technically open; only five or six people have ever been in the same space.

BTW, I always wash my hands before I go to the mousery, and frequently during the hours of care each night, as need arises. I also tie up my hair so I don't shed in the tanks, and wear clean clothes that have not been out of the house, not worn, not exposed to my cats....I worry more about them catching something from me than I do about catching something from them. Tissues, sanitizer, wet wipes: all in use if I have a cold.

After losing both of my box turtles to a virus that everyone in the household had at the same time, I have been extra aware of how certain creatures are endangered by contact with humans. I was heartbroken to find Fluffy, an ornate box turtle, and Cheetah. Florida box turtle, both dead, as they had been with me for a couple of decades.


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## Roland

Jack Garcia said:


> Mine is open in theory but so few people live close enough to visit. If my mice have such weak immune systems that coming into contact with other people is going to kill them, they don't need to be bred from in the first place. I breed them to be healthy and robust. If they're sick, they're culled.


Hey Jack, your answer surprises, because I very well remember the long and tearful contributions when your mice had ringworm.


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## Jack Garcia

And none of them have ringworm now. Treating aggressively and culling heavily got rid of it quickly, but it was still a pain.

The ringworm was actually transferred from human visitors, not mice! There's not much you can do about not allowing people into your house, unfortunately.


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## MouseHeaven

Mines open to a select few, most people don't really care to come in though... They just want their mice


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## laoshu

my rodent shed is open if people really want to see it. 
I have the view that over protecting mice is leaving them wide open to nastys.. I mean how can they build up any imunity to anything in a steril condition.

I have been keeping mice for about 6 years now (from a small amount to larger amounts at any given time) and although I have had the odd problem pop up I have never lost my collection or even large amounts of it.

Of corse I might change my mind in time but it has worked well for me so far this way.


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## moustress

Being fanatical about protecting my mousies doesn't include sterilizing everything in sight, just reasonable cleaning, with occasional exceptional measures as warranted. I think it's more important to sweep the floor in there than clean the tarnation out of, say, the exteriors of the tanks. Insides shiny; outside, not so much.


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## bethmccallister

My daughter who is 7 and usually helps me in my mousery had strep throat last week and was really mad at me cause I wouldn't let her in the room. The mousery is in our 5th bedroom of our old farmhouse. The only people who have ever been in there are the members of the immediate family who live there  I occasionally take out one or too mice to go downstairs to visit people though.


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## SarahC

Jack Garcia said:


> And none of them have ringworm now. Treating aggressively and culling heavily got rid of it quickly, but it was still a pain.
> 
> The ringworm was actually transferred from human visitors, not mice! There's not much you can do about not allowing people into your house, unfortunately.


I've also had ringworm in the mousery,transferred on stock obtained from some one else.It's a hindrance though ,not a killer.


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## Inge

Jack Garcia said:


> If my mice have such weak immune systems that coming into contact with other people is going to kill them, they don't need to be bred from in the first place. I breed them to be healthy and robust. If they're sick, they're culled.


I completely agree with that...

My stud is an open mousery.
In fact every visitor to my house is a visitor to my mousery because my mice are kept in my living room. My mice are exposed to everything that can be transferred by air from humans and also from our two dogs. The mice are only touched by myself and my husband and occasionally by a visitor.

My believe is that when my mice leave my mousery to be pet to someone, they have a better immune system and are better prepared to be a pet.


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## SarahC

I treat all my mice that are leaving for another mousery for external parasites and fungal infections always and it is my opinion that everyone should do the same.


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## Roland

It is important to understand the difference between typical environmental microorganismen and specific diseases.
Just have a look to some human hepatitis viruses: You can have a very well trained immune system, which protects you against cough and cold, but if if you did not get a vaccination and come into close contact with hepatitis B, you will have a good chance to have a serious health problem.
The same is true for mice: The healthiest mice with wonderful immune system will be infected, if they come into contact with mycoplasm. The only way to avoid spreading of diseases between different studs is to use a consequent quarantine and to fight acute infections heavily.
An open stud is the same a a stud which does not use quaratine. Of course: If you do not have visitors, who have ill rodents at home, there are no problems at all. But especially other mouse people, who have ill mice, could carry somthing into your stud.

It is the same situation as in humans again: If you live in Haiti today, your chance to get Cholera is higher than in New York. Without contact to carriers contacts to other individuals are no problem at all. But do you know who is carrier and who is not?
Avoid contact to potential carriers of disease, that is the only take-home-message I want to share.

Best regards, Roland

Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## Mymouse

I would say that mine is open because I allow other people to hold my mice sometime but there are just so few people who want to :lol: it´s mainly just me, my stephdaughter and my neece (if it´s spelled that way). And most people I know don´t have any roedents. 
I don´t always wash my hands before I pick up my mice but actually do wash my hands really often at home (more than the average person) so perhaps that helps. I take care to wash very well if I have a cold or something, no reason to possibly get them sick when you are sick, better to be safe.


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## SarahY

In my opinion there's no point having a closed stud if you take your mice to shows, therefore people are welcome to visit my stud.

Sarah xxx


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## Wight Isle Stud

absolutely !


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## Roland

SarahY said:


> In my opinion there's no point having a closed stud if you take your mice to shows, therefore people are welcome to visit my stud.
> Sarah xxx


Sometimes infections are not so easy to handle. I am a mouse breeder since more than 20 years now and I know several people, who had to cull their complete stock to get rid of the infections and started again at zero. People do not like to talk about these problems, but they exist. These people are much more open to think about possibilities to avoid this traumatic experience next time... 
Indeed the most important point is just to avoid contact between rodent specific microorganisms and your own mice. It is a must to have a conseqent quarantine for at least 3 weeks or (better) even longer, before new mice ar allowed to enter the same room as your old mice.

Shows are a very good place to aquire some mites, ringworm and viral or bacterial diseases indeed. The judges grap dozens of mice with their fingers and place the mice from many different sources on the same judging plate. Mice can be carriers without having symptoms. From my point of view as a biologist who has worked in a microbiological lab for many years the judging procedures could be improved. Judges could desinfect their hands quickly with some alkoholic solution between handling different mice, and the mice could be placed on an individual piece of household paper instead of a judging plate. This is food for thoughts only, not meant as criticism.
Nevertheless even improved procedures do not eliminate the risk of transferring infections, when different stocks are in tze same room. Therefor it is best to handle your mice as if they are strange new mice, when they come back from a show and keep them in quarantine for a while.
This is food for thought, not more. Everybody can do what she/he wants, of course.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## Mymouse

Roland said:


> Sometimes infections are not so easy to handle. I am a mouse breeder since more than 20 years now and I know several people, who had to cull their complete stock to get rid of the infections and started again at zero. People do not like to talk about these problems, but they exist. These people are much more open to think about possibilities to avoid this traumatic experience next time...
> Indeed the most important point is just to avoid contact between rodent specific microorganisms and your own mice. It is a must to have a conseqent quarantine for at least 3 weeks or (better) even longer, before new mice ar allowed to enter the same room as your old mice.
> 
> Shows are a very good place to aquire some mites, ringworm and viral or bacterial diseases indeed. The judges grap dozens of mice with their fingers and place the mice from many different sources on the same judging plate. Mice can be carriers without having symptoms. From my point of view as a biologist who has worked in a microbiological lab for many years the judging procedures could be improved. Judges could desinfect their hands quickly with some alkoholic solution between handling different mice, and the mice could be placed on an individual piece of household paper instead of a judging plate. This is food for thoughts only, not meant as criticism.
> Nevertheless even improved procedures do not eliminate the risk of transferring infections, when different stocks are in tze same room. Therefor it is best to handle your mice as if they are strange new mice, when they come back from a show and keep them in quarantine for a while.
> This is food for thought, not more. Everybody can do what she/he wants, of course.
> 
> Best regards, Roland


In dogshows the judges have disinfectant and use it if they want or if the kennel club asks them to (if there are some type of dog infection going around) and they do it then. Can´t you suggest to the mouse club if they could do what you suggest, perhaps they will listen, though it may take a little time to go through


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## Roland

Mymouse said:


> In dogshows the judges have disinfectant and use it if they want or if the kennel club asks them to (if there are some type of dog infection going around) and they do it then. Can´t you suggest to the mouse club if they could do what you suggest, perhaps they will listen, though it may take a little time to go through


Hi Mymouse,

there are many VIPs from the NMC and other mouse clubs around here. Hence any heavier suggestion would be impolite 

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## SarahY

Hang on a minute - there's never been a problem with judges handling mice at shows! To my knowledge there has never been a disease circulated through the mouse fancy via shows. I don't know of anyone ignorant/stupid/evil enough to take a sick mouse to a show!

The NMC has been doing this a very long time you know :?

Sarah.


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## WillowDragon

As a Breeder who has had to cull my entire stock, I will say that i have not had problems with my mice getting sick from being taken to shows.
I do believe however, that the recent decimation of my stock is due to bringing in new mice that were 'carriers' of the virus that infected my stud.

I do not blame anyone, you cannot see what a mouse carries, and in cases like mine, quarantine doesn't really help much.

W xx


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## Seawatch Stud

As much as I would like to protect my stock from infection, as an exhibitor of mice its simply not realistic to do so. On the other hand Roland is correct in that whole studs of mice can and have been wiped out from disease caught either from shows or newly aquired stock. As a judge I always carry antibacterial spray with me however, its again not realistic to use it after judging every mouse. A judge may have to handle two hundred mice in a few hours and go back and forth between them. I am afraid there is no simple answer to this problem and all you can do is try to minimise the risks.


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## SarahY

I think the simple solution to this is if you don't want to take the risk, don't show!

ETA: Although, for me, without showing there wouldn't be much point breeding mice in the first place! 

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon

...and don't bring in new stock!


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## Seawatch Stud

SarahY said:


> I think the simple solution to this is if you don't want to take the risk, don't show!
> 
> Sarah xxx


This is true if a trifle glib. It a miserable feeling to go into your shed and have to cull all your prized mice which you have worked hard to improve. I have had to do it twice I hope you never have to Sarah but I wouldnt bet on it. I had to cull all my Argente Cremes which I had made from scratch over three years.


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## moustress

The importance of pre and post show quarantines cannot be stressed strongly enough. Bringing new meeces in or out of your mousery create risk for any of your meeces in addition to the risk to other breeders who visit you, lend you studs, go to shows, or know someone else and visit them and handle their meeces. The results of being sloppy or relaxed about quarantine are heartbreaking to hear about much less to experience.

Even with quarantine, it's still possible to experience a devastating event in your mousies even if you only have one or two. You or the one you love could cause illness yourselves, even without contact with other mousies or owners. Sanitizers are an essential mousery supply; I buy it by the half gallon, and sometimes use on my hands, and I also use it (the gel) on occasion to sanitize cages and surfaces. You have to let the stuff dry on the surface of whatever you put it on in order for it to work properly.


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## WillowDragon

In my case, when its viral, a mouse can be immune but a carrier... and no amount of quarantine can stop that.

Happily though, i think what I experienced is quite rare. I for one, hope I never experience this again.


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## SarahY

I think it's just one of those things, the importance of which varies from person to person. Some people would have to get a new fork after dropping theirs on the floor, whereas others laugh at their fussiness, pick the fork up, blow the dog hair off, and carry on using it. I'm one of the latter. I believe germs are good for you ultimately and a sterile environment breeds weakness.

If some mice get sick they will be culled, meanwhile their healthier, stronger relatives will live on. It sounds harsh I know, but much as I do love those furry little guys, my focus is on the stud as a whole not the individuals inside it.

I had a very nasty outbreak last year in the summer. It was awful to have to cull 30 of my beloved doves over a couple of days (and I only had about 40 doves at the time), but Blackthorn Stud is still here and I'm still showing.

Sarah xxx


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## WNTMousery

moustress said:


> The importance of pre and post show quarantines cannot be stressed strongly enough. Bringing new meeces in or out of your mousery create risk for any of your meeces in addition to the risk to other breeders who visit you, lend you studs, go to shows, or know someone else and visit them and handle their meeces. The results of being sloppy or relaxed about quarantine are heartbreaking to hear about much less to experience.
> 
> Even with quarantine, it's still possible to experience a devastating event in your mousies even if you only have one or two. You or the one you love could cause illness yourselves, even without contact with other mousies or owners. Sanitizers are an essential mousery supply; I buy it by the half gallon, and sometimes use on my hands, and I also use it (the gel) on occasion to sanitize cages and surfaces. You have to let the stuff dry on the surface of whatever you put it on in order for it to work properly.


Which shows have you been to?

Roland, the ECMA has always used hand sanitizer (alcohol based cleanser) between every mouse and we do not use a common judging plate. If the mouse touches the table, we clean the table with a germicidal/virucidal solution before the next mouse is judged.


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## SarahY

How many entries does the ECMA have to judge, on average?

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon

> Roland, the ECMA has always used hand sanitizer (alcohol based cleanser) between every mouse and we do not use a common judging plate. If the mouse touches the table, we clean the table with a germicidal/virucidal solution before the next mouse is judged.


Lordy, how long do your shows take??

From what i've seen at my local club shows, hands are sanitised if the judge gets pee'd or poo'd on. And the mice are judged on the table. If everything was sanitised inbetween each mouse at those shows, it would add hours onto each show, and my local shows are quite small. I wouldn't even want to know how long that would add onto the bigger NMC shows!

W xx


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## SarahY

I was thinking the same thing, Willow. The Championship show in January would probably have to run over two days!

Sarah xxx


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## moustress

Look, this is a very emotional issue. I helped someone put down a poor rattie once who was infested and infected with just one visit on the way from one home to another. The person we visited had rescue animals, and didn't tell us. It was one of the most heartbreaking scenes I have ever been part of in all my years of keeping animals.

It's not that I want to shame anyone, I just...I don't have the words...it makes me tear up just to think about it. All serious breeders who show should have a separate area for new animals and animals coming from show, or any other location, and keep quarantine before sending out stock to someone else.


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## WillowDragon

Not amount of cleaning or quarantine will stop things completely, I will mention yet again that my recent disaster would not have been stopped by any amount of quarantine.
I suppose then by your reckoning I am not a serious breeder, and obviously have lax quarantine and hygiene standards.


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## SarahY

> I will mention yet again that my recent disaster would not have been stopped by any amount of quarantine.


That is true sweetie, there was nothing you could have done. Sendai can hide for months in adult mice and not make itself known until babies arrive, when it is passed on to them. It's not your fault xxx

Sarah xxx


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## moustress

Didn't mean that personally, Willow. Sorry.


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## Jack Garcia

Some ECMA shows take a long time (a few hours). We're always cautious about the health of other people's animals because even with the best health check (which we have) there's still a small chance of things going wrong. When I judge I bring hand sanitizer to use between every mouse, plus there is usually hand sanitizer on every table in general. I'm of the opinion that you can never be too careful with other people's hard work.


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## Roland

Jack Garcia said:


> Some ECMA shows take a long time (a few hours). We're always cautious about the health of other people's animals because even with the best health check (which we have) there's still a small chance of things going wrong. When I judge I bring hand sanitizer to use between every mouse, plus there is usually hand sanitizer on every table in general. I'm of the opinion that you can never be too careful with other people's hard work.


This is the only way. Thank you.
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## Roland

SarahY said:


> I think the simple solution to this is if you don't want to take the risk, don't show!
> Sarah xxx


Sarah, I do not think this was an educated, constructive or helpful answer.
Anyway, how about the virtual competion announced on this forum for variegated mice? Any progress?
I will show some mice and I am sure they need no quarantine afterwards!









Best regards, Roland


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## Seawatch Stud

Sarah says what she thinks and what she means. No more no less. I wouldnt have it any other way.


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## SarahY

Aww thanks Phil 

Roland, I stand by what I said, although I apologise for the flippant sound of the post. If one really wants to protect stock, one doesn't let them anywhere other mice, period. Sanitising hands and the judging table doesn't stop airborne diseases and quarantining won't stop long term lingerers like Sendai.

I grew up on my grandparents' pig farm. We worked with a company called PLC, who worked with hundreds of other pig farms across the country. For the 40 years my grandparents owned the farm, they didn't have a single outbreak of disease in the pigs, not one. We were the* only* farm working with PLC able to say that. How? Papa didn't show his pigs and *everyone* who went in to the pig housing had to have a sterilising chemical shower first and put on clean overalls. So believe me, I understand the importance of quarantining and protecting livestock. But, when one is taking one's mice to a show where they are sharing the same airspace as other mice, there is little point to these practises and the best form of protection is to leave them at home.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

Roland, you're very welcome! 



Seawatch Stud said:


> Sarah says what she thinks and what she means. No more no less. I wouldnt have it any other way.


This is true for most of us here. I think it's a good thing.


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## WillowDragon

I do continous risk assessments for work... I have health and safety laws, coshh and infection control constantly updated every 6 months.
And you know what everyone of those things have in common?... you make sure you do everything you can to prevent cross infection *'as far as reasonably practicable'*

Sanitizing between each mouse, satintizing the table everytime a mouse is judged is just not practiable at the shows over here, they are too large, and it would take too much time.

Of course there is a risk when you show, there is always a risk. But when you breed to show, its a risk you are willing to take! Simple as that.


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## WoodWitch

WillowDragon said:


> I do continous risk assessments for work... I have health and safety laws, coshh and infection control constantly updated every 6 months.


I think we have similar jobs Willow!


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## Roland

No risk, no fun?


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## WillowDragon

Apart from the fact that thats a stupid comparison... yes.

If your so against showing Roland, then why do you like large english typed mice so much? They were developed through the fancy for shows.


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## Jack Garcia

I don't think anybody ever said s/he is against showing, just showing the way the NMC does, because it allows more room for sickness to spread.

To be fair, though, I don't think the NMC _could_ do shows the way the ECMA does, simply because the NMC may have many times more entries than shows in most other countries. And if the ECMA had hundreds and hundreds of entrants, it would be more difficult (and time-consuming) to use hand sanitizer between every mouse, though I still think we'd do it.

It really is a trade-off: with very large shows, there is more risk involved. But there are also more mice. You only have so much time in the day and you have to make decisions that people in other circumstances (and other countries!) wouldn't.

This is the same as with Rodent Fest in the US: because there are simply so many animals, the risk of sickness is much greater than at a smaller show where precautionary measures can be taken more easily.

At any rate, the second I step foot into England, I'm going to the first show I can.


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## WillowDragon

Honestly, its more so the fanciers responsibility to make sure that any animals they bring to shows, are as free from infection and infestation as possible. There is a lot of trust needed, and reputation in this fancy is important. If you were known for bring sick animals with, i don't think you'd be showing for long.

From how i've heard you and Jenny talking Jack, Rodentfest sounds much more dangerous for cross infection than even the biggest of our Championship shows.

And Jack, if you were getting 500 mice in your shows, you wouldn't be sanitising between every mouse.


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## Jack Garcia

WillowDragon said:


> And Jack, if you were getting 500 mice in your shows, you wouldn't be sanitising between every mouse.


It really depends what club it was under and who was judging, I think. But I do see how it would take a lot more time to sanitize between every mouse when there were 500 than when there were 50 or 100. I've been at shows with large turnout which lasted till 1:00am before.


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## Roland

WillowDragon said:


> Apart from the fact that thats a stupid comparison... yes.
> 
> If your so against showing Roland, then why do you like large english typed mice so much? They were developed through the fancy for shows.


It is not a stupid comparison: I am not against sex and I am not against showing, but I am against getting ill and getting ill mice. 
Protection is not stupid, it is stupid not to protect.

Nobody is able to eliminate any risk, but we are able to reduce the risks. 
Stupid? I think it is stupid to be against quarantine and to yammer when the stock has to be culled. I think it is ok to tell people they should be careful.

Best regards, Roland


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## WillowDragon

> Stupid? I think it is stupid to be against quarantine and to yammer when the stock has to be culled. I think it is ok to tell people they should be careful.


When have I ever said I was against quarantine??? And before you say its not towards me, when has anyone on this thread said they are against quarantine?

You know what, forget it. I am done with this thread. I have had a bad month and even badder day and I really don't need people preaching to me and making me feel worse than I already do about having to cull my stock.


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## WoodWitch

Roland said:


> I think it is stupid to be against quarantine and to yammer when the stock has to be culled. I think it is ok to tell people they should be careful.


This seems a little personal to me Roland.

You _*have*_ told people to be careful and I think your message has been recieved well enough for now.

Edited for correct quotation marks


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## Jack Garcia

Why can't we all just get along?


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## Seawatch Stud

I cant imagine anyone can possibly have anything more to say on this subject. I would ask anyone considering posting again to ask themselves if its really gonna be worth it. There is plenty here for any newbies to be able to make up their own minds about the rights and wrongs of quarantine.


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## WNTMousery

Seawatch Stud said:


> I cant imagine anyone can possibly have anything more to say on this subject. I would ask anyone considering posting again to ask themselves if its really gonna be worth it. There is plenty here for any newbies to be able to make up their own minds about the rights and wrongs of quarantine.


What, in your opinion, are the "wrongs of quarantine?" :roll:

What harm can ever come from quarantine or taking precautions? None, only good.


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## SarahC

I'm going to dip my toe in slightly and say that good health and vitality are bred in.Constant attention to stock,removing the old and the weak creates a strong stud.You could be very unlucky and pick up something from a show but I've never heard of it happening .It's rare to handle an obviously sick animal on the show bench and when one does present it is sent off without being examined or put on the table.The odd sick mouse is usually from a new mouser or some one who doesn't cull for sentimental reasons which equals a stud of mice that do not have a strong constitution. Keep the best,cull the rest= a good stock of mice.If you do that you won't go far wrong and set backs can be over come.


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## WNTMousery

Good advice, Sarah.


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