# Best for Burmese....



## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

Hello. I am new to mice genetics and varieties, but I am looking for the best pups to use for breeding Burmese and we have a current litter here from a Black and a Himalayan. I also have (what I think is) a Blue Fox who I want to breed either the Himi or one of the pups to for the Burmese genes. Obviously, correct me if I am wrong as I am still trying to get my head around it all.

I have attached a picture of the Blue Fox (lowest nose in the picture from an Agouti-Agouti mating) with her litter mates (ID confirmation of these would be lovely too); the current Himi-Black litter (do you need a closer image of them?) and the Himi himself (maybe too close) for checking.

No point getting off on the wrong foot is there?

Thank you for your time in replying.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

The first pic looks like agoutis, a black and two what look like splashed?.
The second pic looks blacks, a choc, and either PEW or himmi s for the pail ones.

Do you habe a full pic of he himi dad, himi and Siamese can look the same.

So for Burmese you need a himaylain gene (ch) and a chinchilla gene (cch). So Fox X Siamese can get you Burmese fox, Fox X himi can get you Burmese fox and sepia Fox.


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks - I will try to get a better picture of him.

Also, what type of gene is the 'splashed' gene? I heard it was a corruption of a weakened c-type gene and so the mouse would show 2 colors from the same color palette - ie Main Body = Black; Splashed gene makes random patches of Burmese or Siamese?










I notice you only said I had '2 splashed' mice - so does that mean the above assumption was wrong - and that you can't actually know the base color of a splashed mouse? My friend just called them splashed mice too (one light and one dark she said). Surely they still have an actual color or is that the mystery of the splashed gene?

Thanks.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

From what I've been told/read splash is dominant gene acquired from a lab, it turns off the c dilute genes in patches so u have a c diluted mouse with patches of the undiluted bace colour. I think the colour there called by is the colour of the splashing, so black splashed, blue splashed ect. It only shows on the c diluted colours so a non c diluted mouse can habe the splashed gene but it will not show. 
I'm sure someone more experanced in them will come along who can explain it better.

The blue does also look fox, a Fox belly will be on any c diluted tan so not all foxes are cch/cch so u would need to keep that in mind, but I'm sure only cch/cch would be a black Fox as black with cch/c and cch/ce would be mock choc/sepia colour. So if u have a black Fox I'd use that with the himi.


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks again - however I had read that Tan was; at/* and Fox was: at/* cch/cch - so you are saying that that isn't always strictly true? No matter though - I suppose I only need one cch - or won't I be able to see just one?

Also, is the gene 'at' dominant over the A gene - or just all other (small) a genes? So would, for example my Fox be at/a rather than at/A. Can you even have a mouse who is at/ae or Ay/Aw? I'm not yet 100% on how these genes work together - I am still reading about this. However, I did find a list of the A genes and they were in what seemed to be a dominant order - Ay - Avy - Aw - A - at - am - a - ae. Does this look correct?


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

Oh and also you said that I would get Burmese Foxes - due to the little at/ gene - but would it be easy to breed out the fox part once we have the Burmese genes in place - would it be as simple as breeding to some known a/a mice like black selfs?

Can that splashed gene be gotten rid of too - or is it too closely linked to the c genes?


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Yes a propper show Fox is at cch/cch, but any of the c dilute combos will dilute a tan to a Fox belly so to get a Fox belly you don't need cch but you won't get the same shades as you do with cch/cch as this c dilute gene doesn't effect the non red colours as much as the other genes do. 
So on a black tan at/ B/ D/
cch/cch = black Fox
cch/ce = mock choc fox
cch/c = mock choc to shades of sepia fox
cch/ch = Burmese fox
ch/ch = Siamese fox
ch/ce = coloir point baige fox
ch/c = himi Fox
ce/ce = stone fox
ce/c = cream Fox

at is co dominant it will effect all the a genes but only effects belly, so if a mouse doesn't have any dilution genes u get
at/at is black tan
at/a also black tan
A/at is agouti tan
Ay/at would be red tan but you wouldn't be able to tell by looking as both too and belly will be the same colour.
Aw is white belly agouti and is ressive to dominant red At but dominant to agouti A, non agouti a and ment to also effect tan at as well.

Both the tan and splash can be easerly gotten rid of as they can't be carried so once there gone there gone for good.
Depending on if your Fox had two tan genes or one will determine if you get only Burmese fox or if you also get burmese. If your Fox is at/at all its babies will be fox/tan. If it's at/a then you have a chance to get normal Burmese when bred to the himi. Do u know what the foxes parents were belly wise? If one was not tan/fox your Fox is at/a.

If you only get burmese tans they all should only have one tan gene so just breed one of the bucks to his sister's and you will get, burmese fox, normal Fox, himi Fox, Burmese, himi and mock black

The mock black will be a/a cch/cch and can range from looking black to looking a dull charcoal black.


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

The breeder just said she was from an Agouti x Agouti cross - but wouldn't the at for the Fox pups have affected at least one of the parents?

Yep - just found out they were BOTH Agouti Foxes.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Whereabouts are you Apache? Just curious as the Aw gene seems to have died out in the UK fancy (but was definitely exported to the US in the past).


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Agouti Fox as in A/at cch/cch is impossible as that makes chinchilla, so if they were agouti Fox they would have to be either white belly agouti or a poor agouti tan.


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

Of course - a Fox you said had to be 2 c genes, and 2 c genes = no agouti. OK, I will ask again - maybe photos.

I am in the UK Cait - but maybe they have just been mis-identified - so hold that thought... I will get back to you both.


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

Still waiting on confirmation of the Agouti Tans/Foxes - and a new Himi picture - but just to say that some of the 'white' pups from that earlier himi x black litter (earlier photo) have turned pale silver. Would this be (UK) Lilac a/a b/b d/d/ ? It would make sense with the chocolate but introduces a whole new gene D. Are there other likely colours they could be (pictures to follow)?


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

So, are these likely to be Lilac Babies?



















And (still learning) what type of cp is this most likely to be? When do mice points start to show?


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

Sorry, trying to change the thread heading - but not quite got the hang of it....?


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

ive never seen lilac myself in the fur so cant help u there. but im wondering if they could be cream ce/c, if dad is himi he is ch/c so if mum carries ce you could get cream. and the red eyed one that is white could be pink eye diluted cream or pink eye diluted colour point baige so ce/c p/p or ch/ce p/p both should look albino.

with my Siamese I tend to see points first befor the eyes open she tend to have faint ones that then seem to disappear then around 6-8 weeks there back again if I remember right.


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## andypandy29us (Aug 10, 2012)

PPV I have a lilac buck Im taking to manchester if you want to see one  he is much better and pinker than my last one


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Ooo nice. Sadly I won't be at any more shows the rest of the year, well maby Worcester. Got to save up my money after a big bill to get the car fixed.


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

I have been looking on a mouse thread elsewhere and there is talk that a C* pp mouse can show the Splashing effect? Is this true, I can't see it mentioned above in our previous comments?

I thought Splashed only showed with double c-recessive - did I read that wrong?

Thanks

(and I have come a long way with my genetic knowledge thanks to you helping me get started with this original thread. Thanks again.)


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

from what ive been told and have read splashing only shows on c dilute colours, not read anything about it showing up on pink eye diluted mice.


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## Apache (Jul 23, 2014)

...and by c-dilute you mean 2 c-recessive genes - not a Cch - Ccch - etc combination.

Just to be sure I have got it right....


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