# new variety



## rosanna

hi, i just wondered what peoples thoughts were on developing a new variety of show mouse


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## SarahY

Depends on a lot of things. Can you be a bit more specific?

Sarah xxx


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## rosanna

well like people working on a new colour like the hereford before that became standardised


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## SarahC

it's very difficult to get a new variety accepted.There was a lot of opposition to the Hereford.You would have to produce at least 3 mice of the new variety to put before the executive committee.Don't expect them to be wowed.Not only will they have seen most things but they will be less than keen in view of the fact that many existing varieties are neglected.It would have to be something very distinct and even then you would have an uphill task.You can get the full details from your rules and standards book,item 18.If you are thinking of hairless types then save yourself the bother,they won't be accepted by the current committee.


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## rosanna

no, what i am think of is not hairless. i have read the rules in the NMC standards book. i have sopken to a couple of people who have been members of the NMC for over 75 years between them. and they have both said that i have a really good thing going with the new variety i am hoping to produce. they have also advisted me on how to go about it all


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## SarahC

good luck on that then because you'll certainly need it.


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## The Village Mousery

If your want to get a variety standardised i'd of thought you'd want to tell as many people as possible what it is to see if it will be popular? why you being so secretive?


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## rosanna

thank you very much, i understand that it is a hard thing to do, but as i said i have 2 long standing memebrs of the NMC there to help me out if needed. im not being secretive, im just still in the planning stage at the moment. but my idea is of a blazed mouse with 4 white paws and a white tail, with the main colour being any standadised colour


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## SarahY

A new variety has to be very different from any other currently standardised and unfortunately I don't think your blazed mouse will be different enough from the Hereford to win it's own standard. I'm afraid it will just be seen as a mis-marked Hereford, which is really what it is.

Sarah xxx


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## Soleya

what's blazed


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## SarahY

A white triangle between the eyes, with a white muzzle tapering to a point between the ears.

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC

no one can help you get a variety accepted,only the executive committee and they are notoriously strict.Not much chance with a marked mouse similar to dutch and hereford,if any at all.Some people still grumble that the Hereford got through although I quite like them.They aren't widely liked on the show bench.Maybe in another century or so they will be fully accepted.Maybe not by Seawatch and he's on the exec.Ask him his opinion and I think all will be clear.


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## rosanna

see, i knew i would be put down for this. i am goinf to try and get it standardised. first i need to breed this type. these blazed are nothing like a hereford or a dutch, no the way i want it to look anyway. seawatch, well if he is who i think he is then i will not be speaking to him, for personal reasons


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## SarahY

I'm not trying to put you down, honestly. I'm only saying that a blazed mouse with white feet will not ever be standardised because a Hereford is a blazed mouse with white feet. They're too similar in description; your blazed sounds like a poor Hereford and that's what others will say when they see them.

There's certainly nothing to stop you breeding your blazed mice if that's what you want to do, but it helps to keep your goals realistic.

Sarah xxx


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## WoodWitch

rosanna said:


> see, i knew i would be put down for this.


No, no one is putting you down Rosanna, they're just giving you a much needed reality check. You specifically asked for people's thoughts and you got a good response to your thread from some expert breeders.


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## The Village Mousery

If i where you rosanna, i'd take the advice of both sarahs.. these mice dont stand much chance to get standardised. Your wasting time and effort trying to get something standardised when you haven't really been to many shows and shown mice that are already standardised. How do you expect to create a standard when you havn't had the experiance of showing to standard? I'm really not trying to upset you or ruin your dreams but if you do insist on doing this, my advice would be firstly to get mice of a standardised variety and get showing them and steward as much as possible so you can see the standards mice have to be before they go on the bench.


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## rosanna

from what i have seen of the 2 herefords i own and some other herefords, the blazed i am hoping to breed will look nothing like it. as i said i have 2 long standing mambers of the NMC helping me (giving me advise and tips). i was warned that there are many in the fancy who feel that no new varieties show be brought in as there are quite a few already.

I CANT GET TO ANY SHOWS AT THE MOMENT. and i cant get the mice i want to show and nobody seems to have them at the moment. i was going to breed them in pet type to start with and work my way up, that was my plan.


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## SarahY

So what are your goals with your blazed? How will they differ from Hereford?

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC

if trying to achieve something with what you have brings you pleasure then carry on,they are your mice and it's your time and money.It is just a realistic view that they won't be a viable show variety.Abysinnian are not accepted at the present time and I think a standard would be potentially achievable for those.It's not putting you down.I have hairless mice,I like them and so I keep them but I am not under any illusion about get them on the show bench.


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## moustress

Most marked mousies don't meet any standard for show, no matter how remarkable or unusual, and if one thinks about it for a minute, it's easy to see why.

Show standards reduce the chaos and make it possible to discern the specific identity of that breed. I love wildly unusual marked mousies, but I don't for one minute think there should be a category for every kind. I was kicking for awhile about tricolor and splashed standards, but I've come to understand why there aren't any other categories than there are right now. That doesn't mean I'm going to knuckle under and start producing (or trying to!) only meeces that to fit that standard, it just means that I sympathize with the plight of the organization and the judges.

The other hurdle is getting other breeders interested in trying to keep and breed for the new standard of that variety, as a variety that is not widely bred will not raise the interest and create competition. Still, I do respect you for being willing to try something new. 

BTW, there was a standard in some countries (may have been provisional, I don't know) for something close to what you're talking about, called Irish, which was to have a face blaze, a belly blaze, beyond that I don't remember. I think an Irish with a few more white areas, like the feet and tail, which are pretty common on meeces with blazes to start out with, would be very 
attractive. I have a number of them in my tri litters, more or less marked that way. Aye, more or less, there's the sticking point. Socks are just too cute for words. and I'm a softie for face blazes.

Good luck! Be sure to keep us in the know about your progress.


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## rosanna

thank you. i have on for the irish variety in rats at the moment. as i have said be for the blazed im trying to produce will have 4 white paws, a white tail and a dead straight blaze running from between the ears to the top lip. im thinking of trying in in only dark coloured like blues, blacks and chocolates, as the blaze, paws and tails stand out more on darker colours


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## SarahY

OK, not to be repetitive, but how is that different to Hereford? I'm not trying to be funny, I'm not seeing any difference.

Sarah xxx


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## rosanna

my mouse will look like this http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.ph....441154948888.208559.565688888&type=1&theater but a bit better. it will only have the white that i have descibed on it. a hereford has a full white face but it also have white on the stumoch too if i remember rightly. my blazed is very, very diffrent to the hereford


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## SarahY

But that looks like mismarked Hereford! I'm sorry, but it does. In fact, I've seen photos of Hereford litters and there have been babies with narrower blazes than yours.

Why not just work on breeding and (eventually, when you can) showing Hereford mice?

Sarah xxx


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## rosanna

i want to breed rumpwhites, herefords, texels, tans, fuzzy's and abby's but i would also like to develop this blazed type as well. i personally thing it looks nothing like herefords. out of all the mice i want to breed, i currently own. 1 rumpwhite doe, 2 hereford does, 3 tans (2 does, 1 buck), 3 texel does and 3 fuzzys (2 bucks, 1 doe)


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## Soleya

I can't see the photo


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## rosanna

sorry, that was the only way i could upload it


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## SarahC

moustress said:


> BTW, there was a standard in some countries (may have been provisional, I don't know) for something close to what you're talking about, called Irish, which was to have a face blaze, a belly blaze, beyond that I don't remember.


Irish is a common bi product of crossing marked mice to a self and easy to produce.It's a rat variety over here but there is virtually no chance of it becoming a mouse variety.The mouse club swerves away from accepting a new variety just because it's attractive,unlike the rat club which is more embracing of prettiness.It's really got to be something distinct and if it was already a recognised rabbit or even cavy variety then that would be better received.


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## Mark

For those who couldnt see the picture.

Rosanna's picture









Hereford









Mis-Marked Hereford









There doesnt seem to be many examples mis marked herefords, either that or im not looking in the right place haha


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## thekylie

I've been seeing a few people naming patterns in mice after rats, but that doesn't mean the standard is really there for the mice. I have a lot of what would be berkshires if I had rats, and I've even read about people calling their mice berkshire, but really for mice it's just poorly marked pied. Blazed IS very attractive on mice, but it really isn't different enough to warrant it's own variety. 

Remember, if you're not showing (and even if you are), breeding is about breeding what you like. So if you like blazed, breed them! Just don't get your hopes up too high about them being accepted as a standardized variety, and enjoy them as your own project.


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## Mark

I guess it would kind of be like me saying.

Im creating a dalmation variety, only it will differ from the broken because it wont have a nose spot.

Although i do wish someone would hurry up and crass a tan mouse with a rat and get some tans rats haha althose this masked mice would look awesome, but im not about to go trying to create either =D


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## thekylie

I'd love to see hooded mice! lol


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## rosanna

that is what it will be, my own personal project, to start with but once i have the type how i want it then i would like to see if i could get it standardized


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## WillowDragon

I will be repeatative too, this is too much like a hereford to get its own standard.

Though i will have to say Mark, if anyone managed to breed a mouse that looked like a dalmatian of the guinea pig variety, i would be on them in a second!

W xx


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## Mark

WillowDragon said:


> I will be repeatative too, this is too much like a hereford to get its own standard.
> 
> Though i will have to say Mark, if anyone managed to breed a mouse that looked like a dalmatian of the guinea pig variety, i would be on them in a second!
> 
> W xx


Hmmmm i wonder if you could do it by breeding varigateds with dutch and selective breeding......

Hmmmmmmmmm.....


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## Pumpkinsmousery

It would certainly be something to try  My friend used to breed that guinea pig variety, was certainly difficult to start off with :lol:


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## Mark

All joking aside, i think the varities already in the club are of more importance in developing and breeding them to as much to the standard as possible, i think Dutch is a good example of needing work. Although their are some great examples the "saddle" just isnot quite high enough, Fair enough if you want to keep them as pets ( as with SarahC i also had hairless/fruzzies and worked hard to get them less and less hairy just because i liked hairless mice ). Im also with SarahY with that what you are attempting to create is just a mis-marked Hereford and there very little to try and differ the two from each other.

I've never seen a Hereford int he flesh and although i would like to see one, i wouldnt want to breed them just because they dont appeal to me. Looks like someone has grabbed a self and dipped its head in some brilliant white emulsion.

Good Luck with it though.

( Sorry for the typos and spelling mistakes but im tierd and cant be botherd to re-read, so if it doesnt make sense then owel haha )


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## Rhasputin

I have to agree that there's a 0% chance of it getting standardized, but you can breed them all you want. 

I liked the example that someone said. Breeding broken marked mice, but theirs would be different because they'd have no whisker bed spot. It's the same as your 'blazed' mice.

Now MAYBE if you bred a mouse which only had the blaze marking, and nothing else, it could be seen as a separate variety.

But a blazed mouse with white feet and a white tail, is a hereford mouse according to standards, no matter what genes you use to create it.


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## SarahC

Mark said:


> I've never seen a Hereford int he flesh and although i would like to see one, i wouldnt want to breed them just because they dont appeal to me.


Paul Kitchingham of Bradford has them but ill health has prevented him from being at the last couple of Sowoods.
Might be at the September one though.


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## Maplewood Stud

well were on the subject of standards..does anyone know why stone isnt standardised..x


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## rosanna

i was thinking of breeing it so that it was just a blaze but i thought it would be more appearling with white feet and tail.

i only really started this thread to ask if people were for or against new varities being developed


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## SarahC

Maplewood Stud said:


> well were on the subject of standards..does anyone know why stone isnt standardised..x


they are to similar to the creams from which they derive.Zero chance of a standard for them.


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## Maplewood Stud

hm..the ones i have definately cant be stone then...as phil said they prob werent when i mentioned to him x they are from cream.x cream..but the look similar to a cham but with black eyes :| x


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## SarahC

rosanna said:


> i was thinking of breeing it so that it was just a blaze but i thought it would be more appearling with white feet and tail.
> 
> i only really started this thread to ask if people were for or against new varities being developed


on a personal level I'm not against although I don't think the variety you are creating is distinct enough from the others.Ask yourself what it has to offer an exhibitor that wants to take up a new variety that isn't already available in a similar format.I think the answer is nothing.As a body you will find the club is generally against.Thus it is really tough to get something new accepted which on balance is probably for the best and falls in line with other clubs,dogs,cats ,rabbits.The rat club seems to be alone in it's relaxed attitude to new colours.


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## SarahC

Maplewood Stud said:


> hm..the ones i have definately cant be stone then...as phil said they prob werent when i mentioned to him x they are from cream.x cream..but the look similar to a cham but with black eyes :| x


 out of cream x cream with black eyes,that sounds like stone to me.Cait has some good pics of stone,perhaps she will post some.


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## WoodWitch

Maplewood Stud said:


> hm..the ones i have definately cant be stone then...as phil said they prob werent when i mentioned to him x they are from cream.x cream..but the look similar to a cham but with black eyes :| x


Definitely Stone, Maplewood  
Cream x Cream will bring you 50% Creams, 25% Stone and 25% PEW's.

xx


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## Laigaie

It seems like nobody's against new varieties being bred, but are against varieties that are so similar to existing varieties being standardized for show.


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## moustress

I don't think anybody is against anyone else breeding for their own taste. That's what I do; I have chosen different features that are to my own taste, and that have a pleasing appearance to many others.

You go, girl!

ps be sure take lots of pictures


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## Rhasputin

There is a 'new' variety here called blue fawn. It's not standardized yet but at the last ECMA show there were 2 entries for blue fawn!


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## WillowDragon

SarahC said:


> Maplewood Stud said:
> 
> 
> 
> well were on the subject of standards..does anyone know why stone isnt standardised..x
> 
> 
> 
> they are to similar to the creams from which they derive.Zero chance of a standard for them.
Click to expand...

I've said it before and i'll say it again, Stones look nothing like creams!! But thats probably just me hehe


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## SarahC

WillowDragon said:


> I've said it before and i'll say it again, Stones look nothing like creams!! But thats probably just me hehe


I'm not expressing a personal opinion on stones v creams,I'm just giving the answer to the question of why they aren't accepted by the committee.


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## SarahC

Rhasputin said:


> There is a 'new' variety here called blue fawn. It's not standardized yet but at the last ECMA show there were 2 entries for blue fawn!


Don't suppose you have any pics to share.Also I was pondering the stripey mouse that oldtyme bred,the brindle look a like and wondering if that could be fixed and possibly white patches added if that could be labelled as tortoiseshell/tort and white.Just idle wonderings as the subject of new varieties has been raised.


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## WillowDragon

Oh I know that Sarah!... you may pass on my message to the commitee! hehehe Then again, do we really need another self variety standardised? I do see where they are coming from.

K xx


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## SarahC

WillowDragon said:


> Oh I know that Sarah!... you may pass on my message to the commitee! hehehe Then again, do we really need another self variety standardised? I do see where they are coming from.
> 
> K xx


not really when so many that already have a standard are struggling to remain in existance.Unless it's something really great and distinct my actual personal opinion would be that these should be rescued from the brink of extinction.The counter arguement would be that if they don't appeal to people are they worth saving or should we just let them disappear and get on with what's popular :?:


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## Stina

Why discourage new standards when they are may get new people and more animals to the shows? How does it benefit the club if people can't show what they really want to work with?

I can understand not accepting something like this blazed, which I agree is too much like a hereford...but it sounds extremely difficult to get anything standardized.


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## WillowDragon

I was surprised to find out that blacks were struggling since they seem popular and they can win shows. Other self colours, especially dove and lilac struggle because they dont win, for that to change, they need to be given more of a chance by judges.

I mean look at Sarahs doves... beautiful beautiful examples of thier variety they were, but they would never have had a chance winning BIS, because judges didnt like them.
I myself was working on lilacs, to which I was told by a fair few people not to bother because they would never win anything other than a colour class.


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## SarahY

I think it's good that's it's so difficult to get things standardised. Wouldn't want to end up like the rat fancy, with the historic varieties quickly disappearing. There are already plenty of varieties to choose from.

Stone can vary in colour from almost cream to almost chocolate 

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC

Stina said:


> Why discourage new standards when they are may get new people and more animals to the shows? How does it benefit the club if people can't show what they really want to work with?


because most of the animals put forward are not really anything new.The reality is that there won't be many if any takers of these 'new varieties' which makes it all a bit pointless.If Rosanna really persevered and by some miracle got a standard for the mouse,who would want to take it up?I doubt even one person would.It's not impossible.Abysinnians are well liked and there would be a very good chance of achieving something with those.Multiple shades of the same thing like blue is allowed in the rat fancy but not in other small animal clubs.You strive to fit the animal to the standard,not make a new standard everytime a pretty variation of the same thing crops up or allow it because the new colour is easier to achieve.Just a bit off topic,I've got 2 broken does with one dumbo ear each.If any hobby breeders are coming to the midlands show and would like them for their novelty value then I'll bring them with me.


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## rosanna

what about the mouse version of this http://www.meikleobneystud.co.uk/2009 foals_files/fraser1.jpg. or would this be too close to a rump white to be standardized. personally i think a blanket spot appaloosa mouse would be beautiful, but i like blacket spot appaloosa horses.


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## Cait

I agree that there is no chance of getting the 'blazed' mouse proposed standardised. I like unusual mice and several unstandardised varieties, used to be on the Exec Committee and would still have voted 'no' (way) to this blazed being a new variety. As has been said though, does that matter if you like them and want to breed them? I breed rex and they're not standardised either, but I still do it because I enjoy it. I'd also quite happily have some hairless again in future, even though I know the current Exec are against them. If you could create a pink mouse with green spots, maybe then you'd have a chance of getting a standard!


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## Tinkers Mousery

I think it would be a shame to loose some of the varietys we allready have. I know people are having a hard time with argente ( breeding wise) at mo and not many people breed them. Allthough I have my own personal favourite varietys, I am perfectly willing to work with anything that has a threat of dissappearing. I love the varietys we have out there at the mo.... And as a newbie myself I think we have enough varietys to be going on with in show mice.....but if one wants to persue a personal breeding programme for themselves then that's fine.


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## SarahC

rosanna said:


> what about the mouse version of this http://www.meikleobneystud.co.uk/2009 foals_files/fraser1.jpg. or would this be too close to a rump white to be standardized. personally i think a blanket spot appaloosa mouse would be beautiful, but i like blacket spot appaloosa horses.


I think that could have possibilities.What about Strawberry roan Rosanna to continue the horse theme or something with a crest like you get in cavies and budgies.I'd like a lemon mouse as I've said before,a proper yellow one.I'm not anti a real genuine new variety at all,one that would have wide appeal.I've got plenty of muttleys in my shed.


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## Mark

SarahC said:


> rosanna said:
> 
> 
> 
> what about the mouse version of this http://www.meikleobneystud.co.uk/2009 foals_files/fraser1.jpg. or would this be too close to a rump white to be standardized. personally i think a blanket spot appaloosa mouse would be beautiful, but i like blacket spot appaloosa horses.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that could have possibilities.What about Strawberry roan Rosanna to continue the horse theme or something with a crest like you get in cavies and budgies.I'd like a lemon mouse as I've said before,a proper yellow one.I'm not anti a real genuine new variety at all,one that would have wide appeal.I've got plenty of muttleys in my shed.
Click to expand...

I saw a picture of argente cream, what a beaut they are.


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## SarahC

I like the argente cremes.I have some very pretty mongrels in my shed.I expect we all do.I think I'll start a thread for us who can't control the experimental urge with pics of these bits n bobs and what we would call them if they were a variety.Just for fun.Half dumbos spoken for


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## Seawatch Stud

The mice descibed as "blazed" are mis-maked Herefords as has been repeatedly pointed out. I bred Herefords for over two years, and bred many without the full face markings. If long serving members of the NMC have told you "blazed" mice could have a future, they are simply wrong. There is no chance that even one member of the exec would vote for it, that's a fact. I love to experiment with rare or new varieties, and I do believe that some could have a future, Abbys for instance. The reasons for some varieties being rare are many and varied. I created my own line of Argente Cremes from scratch. They proved to be very difficult to get consistently right. Other varieties are seen by some to be too competitive to bother with. The NMC exec have a tough job deciding which new varieies do, or do not, have a future. In the end it's a judgement call. Some people should learn the basics of keeping and showing mice before telling experienced fanciers who accept the responsibilty of being on the NMC exec, how things should, or should not be done.


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## Loganberry

WillowDragon said:


> I was surprised to find out that blacks were struggling since they seem popular and they can win shows. Other self colours, especially dove and lilac struggle because they dont win, for that to change, they need to be given more of a chance by judges.
> 
> I mean look at Sarahs doves... beautiful beautiful examples of thier variety they were, but they would never have had a chance winning BIS, because judges didnt like them.
> I myself was working on lilacs, to which I was told by a fair few people not to bother because they would never win anything other than a colour class.


I've just seen this thread as i've been away, and would like to point out that the reason doves haven't won a show recently isn't because judges don't like them - it's simply because there are mice that better fit their standard on the day. you are making it sound like judges are prejudiced against certain varieties. Lilacs face problems because it is very hard to get a good one. I've only seen lilacs that are the wrong colour, and/or mealy looking.


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## WillowDragon

What is the right colour for a Lilac though? The standards are so very vague and judges and breeders can only go on what they *think* a lilac should look like!


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## Stina

I fail to see how allowing "new" varieties will discourage those already standardized...If someone doesn't want to work with the varieties that are losing popularity, they're not going to suddenly want to work with them just b/c they can't show what they DO want to work with, and if they do choose to work with those varieties, then they're a lot more likely to end up quiting the fancy or just not doing well because they aren't working with something they really care about. As mentioned, a LOT of the varieties that aren't standardized aren't new...they just aren't standardized...why NOT standardize them??... I really dont' see how it would harm anything. I think its just fostering failure and losses of people that want to be in the fancy if people who want to show can't work with varieties they actually like. I see no reason why a variety shouldn't be standardized if it can be consistently reproduced and isn't basically the same as something already standardized. The mouse fancy is already a struggling community with few new, lasting enthusiasts....why discourage newbies from working with what they love?...there's a difference between just plain breeding what you like and being able to show it and accomplish something with it....and its VERY discouraging to new hobbyists when want to get into showing and can't or are told they'll fail unless they choose to work with something they don't have any interest in.


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## SarahC

Stina said:


> I see no reason why a variety shouldn't be standardized if it can be consistently reproduced and isn't basically the same as something already standardized.


I think that is the crux of the matter.99.9% of these new varieties don't meet this criteria ,just random pretties that the breeder takes a shine to.We are putting an unstandardised class on at the midlands show so if anyone has something they feel has potential lurking in their shed bring it.I'll be entering as I did at Enfield.


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## SarahC

WillowDragon said:


> What is the right colour for a Lilac though? The standards are so very vague and judges and breeders can only go on what they *think* a lilac should look like!


the only way is to breed lots and get them under lots of judges.Reading the standard isn't enough.It's not just lilacs ,I have the same with fawns.I have learnt by showing under many judges that the darker ones do better.However reading the judges critique for Enfield in the NMC news I see that Terry commented that my fawn was a bit to dark for him.I won't change my whole stud for that comment but I'll remember that Terry likes them a bit lighter.As they come in varying shades it won't be difficult to select one or two that fit the bill.You've really got to get out there and participate and the nmc news is essential for reading the critique.I've got a shed full of unpopular varieties but I do o.k with them generally.I am happy to judge the less popular and would be delighted to see a great lilac.Alas all fail on size and type before colour is even a consideration.I didn't see yours Willow so can't comment on those specifically.I know life gets in the way and I'm not having ago as such but if you had joined the club willow and subscribed to the nmc news you would have become aware that at least 3 long time members/judges have had more than a passing interest in lilacs and would happily have submitted an article on them just for you or advised at a show or chatted with enthusiasm on the phone or looked over your mice and critiqued constructively in person.You can't really complain when you haven't given the people that could and would help a chance.


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## laoshu

My first question would be "have you done a test breeding with the blazed mouse?"
If so what did you breed it to? what was the other mouse's full genetics? what was the outcome. Regardless of the fact you have been told you should try to get this standardized you would need to do test breedings first to find out what is it not before you decide what it is.

In my opinion I also think its a miss marked hereford.


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## rosanna

its mum is a black tan, dad is broken chocolate, i have got mums parents written down sowhere but i cant find it at the moment. the litter is 3 weeks old, and so i havent bred from any of them yet. the litter consists of broken black tans (3 of which are blazed), 2 PEW, 1 dove, 1 broken blue tan also blazed, 3 black tans and 2 black selfs.

i have been told that it is ok to breed brother to sister (im not happy with doing this but ok), i am planning on keeping all the blazed babies, the 3 blazed black tans are all boys and the blazed blue tan is a girl. what my plan is at the moment (unless advaised to do it diffrently) is to breed the girl with 1 of the boys, then if i get a blazed girl out of her breed that to 1 of the other boys, then if i get a blazed girl out of her breed that to the remaining boy. although this plan will probably change depending on what i get from the first litter.


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## laoshu

If no test breedings have been done yet its impossible to say if it is or is not a gene that is already on the show bench (ie hereford) 
Breeding brother to sister will help fix traits but at this stage I would not be fixing traits but checking them against other blazed mice to see if they are compatible. If they are then it means you have a miss marked variety like mentioned on here already and there is no point taking that further then if it proves out as one of them.

A friend of mine has a lovely agouti pet mouse with a blaze/slash on its face and white feet... The first time I fixed eyes on it I said I think its a miss marked hereford and told her to test its genetics with one That I had already gave her (female hereford) .. A couple of weeks ago she had a litter from that pairing and hey presto , baby herefords.


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## rosanna

i know that hereford is not in this mouses back ground, if it is then it is a good 10 generations back. the lady i got the mum off has only ever had 1 hereford and i brought that off her (totally unrelated to the mum), she breeds so many mice that as i said it would be at least 10 gens back in the line, if hereford is in there at all.


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## laoshu

It could of easily come from 10 + generations back since it was last seen in the line of mice.
Its a recessive gene and could be carried through the generations for hundreds of breedings with out being detected unless test breedings are done throughout that time or the right mice are paired up by chance to bring it out.


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## rosanna

correct me if im wrong but the way i look at it, each mouse has its own genetic make-up. this make up makes the mouse have certain colours in certain places and so if i was to breed to blazed mice together, then the babies will have double the make up saying that the blaze should be in a certain place and so on


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## laoshu

I am not quite sure what your trying to say. 
A marking on a mouse can be recessive or dominant so depending on that will depend on how you can make more.
Two blazed mice (assuming its not a random spotting gene) should make more blazed whether dominant or recessive.
I am not sure how this would prove ether way that your mice have something new or not though??


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## SarahY

The executive committee won't care if the gene is different or not, if it looks like a mis-marked Hereford, that's enough for them 

Sarah xxx


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## laoshu

I agree Sarah.. even if it was proven it wasnt a hereford it still to much alike from what the op described.


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## icedmice

Mark said:


> For those who couldnt see the picture.
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> Rosanna's picture
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> There doesnt seem to be many examples mis marked herefords, either that or im not looking in the right place haha


That last one is Sarah's mouse from Rock n Pop rodentry in Australia.
That mouse is a decendant of some of mine  . She'll be glad to hear they were used as an example of mismarked hereford because that's what she'd trying to breed....Herefords, I mean....no mismarked ones . They looked like blobs before...even one with a fluke yin yang marking on his back....he's cool 

Proper marked varieties in Australia are almost non existant because if people's issues with inbreeding being evil and so fourth. Funnily we have them standardised, it's not hard to get things standardised in Australia and not long ago the secretary of the club tried to produce EXACTLY what you're describing. Shame you don't live in Australia because you'll have them standardised in no time...we even have headspots, brindles are classed as marked, manx is standardised, along with hairless, lilac, blue agouti...etc.

I don't totally agree with the way our club runs but it's only way I can exhibit my animals. I'd feel more at home with a club run like the NMC, (actually I'd like to join and register my mousery as an overseas member if it's possible. I tried e-mailing before, who do I contact?) - and that book everyone keeps talking about as the mousie bible...how do I get a copy?
I think you're so lucky to have breeders as serious and knowledgable as the ones you have there, I'd give anything for the privelage of competing against the world's best.

I also have a special project variety and have produced heaps more than 3 consistantly.
Blazed double banded is my best description, resembles dutch but it isn't because I briefly worked with dutch but there were too many faults with the line. Some mismarked dutch look like my special variety  .
Aussie Dutch or Immitation dutch I sometimes call them unoffocially . Not particularly interested in getting them standardised either, they'd still be classified as evens at any rate.

























Point is you can have a special trademark variety without the pressure of showing them, producing them would be for recreational purpose and as long as others like them as pets then it's your personal stock to do as you please  . Personally I don't care if my special mice NEVER win a show. They've won a few awards in marked category even so, like I mentioned Australia doesn't have a great deal for the passionate mouse fancier.


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## moustress

The crux of the biscuit here is the fact that even with breeding a pair of show quality marked mousies of any type one will get a lot of different results that are more or less close to the standard or to the appearance of their parents. The genes for markings are approximate and will have a tendency to resemble the parents without any guarantee that one of them will have exactly the same markings as either parent.

It isn't useful to look at any mousie as having an unique genotype. All of them have the same general makeup in the same general order. The groups of genes that govern appearance, including the genes for white markings, are grouped in loose association with one other, whether recessive or dominant, and one cannot get meeces that have 'cookie cutter' identical appearance as there are probably dozens (conservatively) of different ways the genes can be expressed in the look of the mousie.

Trying to breed show quality marked meeces must be just about the hardest and most frustrating varieties to deal with!


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## Rhasputin

Someone on here asked for photos of blue fawn:


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## Rhasputin

Here is another 'blue fawn' mouse:


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## Laigaie

That is a remarkably confusing-looking color! Looks like a deep blue undercoat and a reddish-fawn rest of the coat? :shock: What does that come from?


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## Rhasputin

It's a combo of blue, and RY. It's super strange. :lol:


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## moustress

Uh, yuh...I wonder if that's why I don't have any new fawns in my litters...my meeces have the blues!

Actually, I think I have one or two, not certain though.


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## Stina

They lose some of the grayishness as they mature...I was asked to enter whatever I had to the last ECMA show and I made up a color for her (the 2nd mouse) so I could enter her...lol I named the color after blue fawn dogs. There isn't a different color undercoat...the actual hairs are just wierd colors...lol The gay tends to concentrate along the back/head, but as I said, it decreases as they mature. I should get a new photo of her...her name is Rogue.


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