# tail spasm?



## mspretto09 (Aug 12, 2009)

Okay,

When I put my two female mice together in a shelter that is not the home for either of them, [therefore neither of them are "dominant" to the area] My newer black mouse Zen starts to like move her tail around all spastic-ally.

:think

I am ASSUMING this means that she is afraid or uncomfortable with the presence of Tink, my other mouse. [which could very well be possible because Tink has not been very nice to Zen in the past...]

I don't know what this behavior actually means for certain so I was wondering if any of you had any ideas? Please post back !


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

The vibrating tail is a warning and its usually but not always,males that do it.Some of my very butch males when in with females do it at me.


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## x.kathy.x (Jun 7, 2009)

Sarah c is right, it's a warning, from our experience some of the colours, ie blue, black ,siamese seem to be a lot more ''highly strung'' than say your pew's, silvers etc. Keep a watchful eye on them, hopefully they will settle down, they may be just sorting out the pecking order as happens when tubs are clean with no smells, and it seems common for newly paired mice too, and yes it is usually the boys that are the problem!!! and have followed up on the threat with a bite, don't let them get the better of you they can get quite stroppy :lol: :lol:


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

ha ha,I bet it was the siamese that followed with a bite.I have had most of this with them and self black.


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## Maplewood Stud (Jan 2, 2009)

yes definately was one of our siamese...wasnt it mum.... the little angel in her pic look... 

hes a little turd he lures u in for a cuddle with those beautiful ruby eyes then takes advantage and really does bite if he wants too, normally me as hes "mums baby" lol...

little BUGGER!!! :lol: x


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Just to digree...I'm really shocked you say blues and blacks are the higly strung ones. The blacks I've had can be a bit skitty but on the whole both the blues are my most chilled out mice.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I haven't had an aggressive blue but you ask Cait about the evil siamese buck I had.He was in a barred cage and would try to grab you if you brushed the cage.Had all the dogs noses,much to their surprise.As breeders these he men/mice are good at getting the job done.


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## julieszoo (May 27, 2009)

Does the aggression not tend to pass down the line then? I must admit I would avoid breeding from an overly aggressive rat (of either sex) as beautiful babies that are not tractable would not be very useful in future plans...


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Its definately a trait of some varieties,siamese being the obvious one,so to a degree yes.Its also a normal male behaviour so not all bucks that do it can be condemned.The siamese I had that did it was an extreme case and was dispatched.I wouldn't have passed his progeny on to be pets. Personally I wouldn't pass bucks on as pets at all,does are so much more problem free.In that respect they don't really compare to rats.I think rat exhibitors are more likely to pass their surplus on as pets in any case and less likely to cull them? As far as being a show animal, does not bucks fit the ideal and are far more likely to be shown so its not much of a problem really.Some of the very nice docile bucks can be a problem to get breeding.Its a case of balance between being butch and not to fierce.


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## julieszoo (May 27, 2009)

A really thought provoking reply Sarah, hope you don't mind if I take the time to respond to some of your points.



sarahc said:


> Its definately a trait of some varieties,siamese being the obvious one


This is interesting, as siamese rats in the past have had a poor reputation for temprament. Wonder if this is also true for other animals with that patterning?



> Its also a normal male behaviour so not all bucks that do it can be condemned.


I have buck rats here that won't live with other bucks and would show aggression to them, for the pet owner who wishes to keep buck rats together the problem is easily solved by neutering usually. I would not condemn a buck for that kind of behaviour, but if he was aggressive to does he would be useless as a breeding animal, and I would not personally want to keep an animal that was overlly aggressive to me. I am the alpha 



> The siamese I had that did it was an extreme case and was dispatched.I wouldn't have passed his progeny on to be pets. Personally I wouldn't pass bucks on as pets at all,does are so much more problem free.In that respect they don't really compare to rats.I think rat exhibitors are more likely to pass their surplus on as pets in any case and less likely to cull them?


Yes, there is a market for both buck and doe rats as pets, so there is a choice to offer surplus to pet homes. I think if buck mice did not stink so badly more people would like to keep them as pets as they seem to have more character then the does  But with there being no outlet for them I fully appreciate there is no point in allowing a doe to waste energy raising more then are needed by the breeder.



> As far as being a show animal, does not bucks fit the ideal and are far more likely to be shown so its not much of a problem really.


This is a huge difference between the rat and mouse fancies, and one that is very interesting to learn of. With rats, there are seperate standards for the types of bucks and does, so although they are judged in the same class for their colour/markings etc an excellent doe would not look anything like an excellent buck in body shape. In many varieties, the does will be the better show animals mainly due to having shorter coats and better colour generally, but rex and siamese are 2 notable exceptions.



> Some of the very nice docile bucks can be a problem to get breeding.Its a case of balance between being butch and not to fierce.


I completely agree with this, one of the challenges, keeping the balance between being tractable and being up for the job


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

thanks for the considered response.If only every one on forums could be so civil.Whilst feeding in the shed I have also given it more thought.My thoughts revolved around other fancies.Rabbits,some very unsociable varieties.Polish dwarf spring to mind,cat varieties,many with catitude that don't make great pets.Some poultry have serious attitude although I think its the cocks rather than hens.Nobody in these fancies thinks anything of it.There is a stud buck class for mice.I had a good conversation about that with a long time fancier at Bingley.His opinion was winning the class used to have importance and generate respect.Over the years he thinks the importance of the stud buck class has dwindled in peoples eyes and is hardly worth having.I'm very interested as well in all these things and always try to get answers from people who have seen a few decades of showing.With male mice being in general more feisty than rats I guess people don't want the hassle of housing big numbers .As for castration,I'm afraid that although mice are my passion, I don't think they can compete as a rewarding pet, with the rat.Rats come out of the nest interested in humans and just about tame themselves and always welcome interaction.For that reason they attract owners that are willing to spend on them.I don't think it will ever be the case for mice.There are of course exceptions.


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## julieszoo (May 27, 2009)

Thankyou Sarah for taking the time and trouble to respond to my musings with more of your own  The differences between various fancies are indeed very interesting, I did not know there was a mouse stud buck class and it does seem a shame that the importance of winning this is seen as a lesser honour these days. After all, a good buck is one half of the stud is he not?

I once had the pleaseure of meeting a stud of beautiful polish rabbits when I went to collect a rex cavy, they were indeed stunning, but the breeder told me they were a labour of love - feisty, delicate, hard to breed amoung other things when I commented that it was suprising that such a pretty and small rabbit had not become more popular as a pet. I think with it becoming ever more the norm to castrate male pet animals, people do tend to be suprised when they keep something that doesn't get castrated and displays normal behaviour at sexual maturity. I have parrots and they can be quite aggressive at times, even though mine are non breeding pets they still have the instincts and urges. You soon learn to read their moods and have a healthy respect for them


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Ha,I've got to comment on the parrots,sorry to hijack the thread.I also have non breeding parrots.Four until earlier this year.One, a hen red lored made a devoted couple up with my orange wing.I've had her over 20 years and she hates me with a passion.A hatred born out of jealousy of my close relationship with the o.wing.He died earlier this year and even though she is lonely she won't have me at any price.When she comes out I have to have an open magazine on my head to protect me,not a pretty sight.I admire the fact that she won't give up her parrotness  to be the human baby that so many want them to be.


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## Cbprf (Aug 24, 2009)

Too tired to read through all the posts so I don't know if someone has already said this, haha, but from my experience and what I have read on other sites, it can also be used to let you know they're annoyed with something. My does did it when I introduced them to each other, but they eventually stopped once they got used to one another, and now my two new ones do it also because they're not quite used to the others.


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## Cbprf (Aug 24, 2009)

Oh and I wanted to add, my new one who does the tail flit isn't a dark color. She's a creamy grey, so maybe it's not just the darker furred ones? Whatever, either way... mine did it out of annoyance due to the new cage mates but eventually stopped.


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## dangermouse (Oct 4, 2008)

after having a african grey and an eclectus parrot, the grey being mine and the other being my partners, I have to agree with sarahc on the attitude of parrots...... the eclectus hated me with a vengeance just because he liked my partner better and got jealoue when out of the cage .... i too had to take cover......... :lol:


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