# another ce question



## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

i continue to be confused by a c dilution that popped up in my line of pet store derived mice. is it possible for ce mice to be so dark as to be indistinguishable or only very slightly distinguishable from blue and black selfs? and then ce/c mice from the same line to appear as below (as adults they are slightly darker)?

my original hypothesis was that the mice in the picture were ce/ce, but the breeding results just don't seem consistent with that.


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## Au Naturel (Jun 8, 2012)

What did you breed it with and what were the result(s)?


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Au Naturel said:


> What did you breed it with and what were the result(s)?


i've had maybe 10 litters or so, with the putative ce/ce mice being crossed to (related) black/blue selfs, other putative ce/ces and pews (presumably albino). all litters have only produced those same three phenotypes (not necessarily all three in every litter). i've bred the putative ce/ces to putative albinos and gotten about half pink-eyed pinks and half dark-eyed. i usually cull almost all the pink-eyed pups, so i can't say for sure that they all would have grown into pews. i've also crossed the putative ce/ces with blue/black selfs and gotten pink-eyed pups in the litter.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

The mice pictured could well be c/ce, especially if they darken as they get older. I'm not sure why you question whether or not the c gene is lurking around as the breeding you have done has produced albinos, c/c. Or maybe I'm missing something in your question?

I have both c/ce and ce/ce mice in the line I'm focusing on. The c/ce appear slightly lighter than the ce/ce when they're young. Actually, in your picture as it appears on my screen, it looks like a c/ce mouse on the left, and a ce/ce on the right.

With your other question, in my experience (with pet type mice) C/ce mice are only a tiny bit lighter than C/C, when the mice are black. With the blue dilution, the difference is even more slight. I would imagine, though, that with the highest quality mice bred for showing, this difference would be more marked. In fact, the introduction of any c-dilute would spoil the colour intensity and depth achieved by the generations of selective breeding and weeding out of stray modifyers.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> The mice pictured could well be c/ce, especially if they darken as they get older. I*'m not sure why you question whether or not the c gene is lurking around as the breeding you have done has produced albinos, c/c.* Or maybe I'm missing something in your question?
> 
> I have both c/ce and ce/ce mice in the line I'm focusing on. The c/ce appear slightly lighter than the ce/ce when they're young. Actually, in your picture as it appears on my screen, it looks like a c/ce mouse on the left, and a ce/ce on the right.
> 
> With your other question, in my experience (with pet type mice) C/ce mice are only a tiny bit lighter than C/C, when the mice are black. With the blue dilution, the difference is even more slight. I would imagine, though, that with the highest quality mice bred for showing, this difference would be more marked. In fact, the introduction of any c-dilute would spoil the colour intensity and depth achieved by the generations of selective breeding and weeding out of stray modifyers.


i just don't want to make assumptions, before i know something with more certainty. in this case, i would expect to see four distinct phenotypes, representing 1) C/C, C/ce and C/c; 2) ce/ce; 3) ce/c; and 4) c/c. instead i am only seeing three phenotypes. to me, this indicates one of three possibilities, a) the ce gene can exert such a weak diluting effect in some lines that the ce/ce mice are almost indistinguishable from C/? mice, b) rather than the ce gene, i have some other c dilution allele, or c) rather than the c gene, i have p/p popping up causing the pink-eyed neonates (and presumably intereacting with the ce/ce phenotype to produce a pew phenotype).

i'm not sure which scenario is more likely, or if there is another explanation that i'm overlooking. actually your reply does suggest another possibility - that i'm unable to distinguish between the ce/ce and ce/c mice. that could also explain the breeding results.

of the two mice in the picture, one is blue based the other is black based, hence the difference in tone.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm all for making assumptions, then I work through them, eliminating each one until I have the likeliest scenarios. You take a more scientifically disciplined approach. 

My suggestions as to your possibilities:

a) ce is extreme dilution. Only c (albino) has a stronger dilution effect on the c locus. However, dominant C largely overrides this. a/a C/C is black. a/a C/ce is slightly diluted black. a/a ce/ce is off white. Therefore C/* is completely distinguishable from ce/ce.

b) Possible, but not a necessary scenario to explain your results

c) Less possible, because if you had PE I'm sure you'd see doves - any C/* + PE

I'm tending to my explanation. 

It's interesting, and a complicating factor that you have the blue based dilution mixed it. Any additional dilutions, such as d/d and b/b, will add to the total dilution of c/ce and ce/ce mice. For example, I like my c diluted mice to be as pale as possible, and to this end most are b/b d/d ce/c (and ce/ce). The problem is that I'm not so far down the track that I know for sure they're all lilac based. So, sometimes a ce/ce appears lighter than c/ce simply because it's lilac based, compared to a c/ce which is black based.

I wish I had a system for barcoding the genetic information of the mice - like a little sticker on their bottoms keeping track of what genes they carry. It would make my breeding plans a lot easier, and make my life complete.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> c) Less possible, because if you had PE I'm sure you'd see doves - any C/* + PE
> 
> I'm tending to my explanation.


i agree, your explanation seems more likely than the possibilities i was previously considering. i hadn't thought of it, as i had the preconceived notion that ce/c mice would be much lighter than ce/ce mice.

regarding c) - i cull most pink-eyed mice at birth, i've only allowed 3 or 4 to grow to adulthood. so, it is conceivable that through random selection i've not seen other pink-eyed variants in addition to pews. i've also seen jack, and perhaps someone else state that the p locus can be linked to a the c locus, in which case, it might be unsurprising to see p/p non-randomly associated with ce/ce among a litter or group of litters.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Ah yes, I forgot about the P - C locus linkage! But if, as you suggest, you've got a line where there was a crosssing over in the linkage, the occurance of the PE would certainly not be random. It's heritable until the unlikely (but possible) occurance of another crossing over at the same points.

All in all though, I think that the simpler explanation is the more likely one. If you kept some of the pink eyed babies, you'd know. But then you'd have pink eyed mice to contend with, and I recall from another thread that they're not your faves.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> All in all though, I think that the simpler explanation is the more likely one. If you kept some of the pink eyed babies, you'd know. But then you'd have pink eyed mice to contend with, and I recall from another thread that they're not your faves.


they're not. i think i might be able to test your hypothesis simply by keeping more detailed records of litter results among ce/? x ce/? (ie the animals i previously thought were ce/ce, but some % of which might be ce/c) crosses. without having to raise up a bunch of pink-eyed animals.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Any strategy that avoids a bunch of PE animals is a good one. I'd be interested in what you find. The issues your dealing with, ie unravelling and identifying c and ce dilutes, is exactly what I'm trying to do at the moment.

I seem to have distilled these dilutes in my mice simply by selecting conformation traits. In particular, I've noticed something that I refer to as ce eyes. They're distinctly larger than the eyes of mice with any other dilutes, at least with my mice. I'd be interested if you notice anything similar. For example, if you had a mixed litter of blacks/blues as well as ce/ce and c/ce mice, see if you notice anything happening with the facial features. I think it could be something to do with the embryonic cell migration from the neural crest - melatonin and cranial structure are linked here. I can't find much about it though, other than the basics.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

My comment is worth zilch, I know, but I just wanted to say with my mice, the c-dilute definitely has larger eyes than the blue.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

That's not zilch! That's interesting.  I'm evidence gathering, because it's impossible to make generalisations from my one mousery, given the other factors that are involved and could be linked.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Well, I mean I can't say I found a trend because it's just within my teeny seven mouse colony.  It's the biggest reason I'm holding back on breeding my beautiful long haired satin blue - her eyes are so tiny. However, if it's a coat trend, I could be convinced! I love the c-dilutes and happy punch of colour they offer but LHS blue is like liquid silver. <3


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Well there's no evidence other than what could be coincidence at this stage that there's any correlation between eye socket size and the ce dilute, so you should go with the varity you really like! I'm just curious to see if there's anything in it. If it appears that a reasonable number of people have seen the same trait association then it would be worth looking into some more.  So every comment helps, either supporting the theory or otherwise.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

i haven't noticed any correlation between ce (if that is what i have) and eye size, but i think i don't focus on eye size as much as you do - so there very well might be such a trend that i just haven't noticed.

i tend to cull mostly based on tail and ear pigment, at least at this point in time.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

sys15 said:


> i tend to cull mostly based on tail and ear pigment, at least at this point in time.


I'm curious as to why? What colour tones are you selecting for?


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> sys15 said:
> 
> 
> > i tend to cull mostly based on tail and ear pigment, at least at this point in time.
> ...


because everything looks better with a black tail and ears.

i mostly have black and blue selfs, along with c-diluted versions of those. all of them could benefit from more pigment.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Sorry if it seems I'm bombarding you with questions, but I do have another. I originally thought that having c-dilutes was what you wanted, ie for the BE creams. But if you're breeding for better blacks and blues, then I'd assume you were looking to get rid of them. They spoil blacks completely. However, with blues a controlled use of c-dilutes can be used to adjust the tone and intensity of the blue. This would only be in the case of C/ce or C/c, though, when the single copy of the recessive makes a minor adjustment to the colour. Once you get the recessives together, no more black or blues.

By contrast, my use of blue is not actually for blues, it's to lighten the cream of the BE cream, and give it a cooler cast. I personally find ce/ce gives a pleasing colour to young mice, but darkens with age to a dirty cream. Using blue corrects this to a certain extent. Adding a brown dilute lightens the coat colour even more, but with a warmer shade. (It's a misconception that b/b actually *dyes" the pigment by adding colour. It just takes away colour from black, sort of bleaching the black slightly, which in the absence of c dilutes creates brown, so it doesn't *add* brown to BE creams, just lightens them, especially when combined with d/d.) If this makes sense, that's my reasoning, and it's supported to an extent by the results of the pairings I've made.

So, are you actually wanting BE creams?

The other colour that you may be getting is unstandardised, but what finnmouse refers to as BE silver. Essentially, it's blue diluted mock choc (the lighter version). You'd need other c-dilutes to get this shade, though.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

my colony is in a state of flux, and has been since i started it. so, some of this is more goal than present reality - but i'm basically breeding or planning to breed two lines. one that produces black tans and agoutis (heavy on the black tans, but i don't want to lose the agouti gene). and a second that produces blacks, blues, siamese, colorpoints, ce/ces and possibly ce/cs (but if the ce/cs are actually indistinguishable from ce/ces, then there is no reason to keep the albino gene in the colony). my hope is that all of those varieties can be produced from the same group, subject to the same selection, but if it is necessary to split off a third line at some point i'll consider it doing that, or consider simply eliminating some genes from the group. blacks and siamese are the priority in that line.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Apologies for my foggy brain as I only woke up half an hour ago and need a little sustenance, but if you cross what might be assumed to be ce/ce with blue, would that result in BE cream if the blue cools off the brown?


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

With my mice, what I've observed is that ce/ce mice are (darker) BE cream, with a warmish hue. ce/ce mice with brown are slightly lighter, but similar hue. ce/ce with blue makes a cooler colour, as you've mentioned. ce/ce with mice lilac (blue and brown) have a colour shade between the two, as well as being lighter overall.

With mice that are c/ce with the various additional dilutions, the results are similar to the above, but the shade overall is lighter in each case. Also, the c/ce mice don't turn such a dingy cream colour when they get older. The retain the overall lighter cream colouration.

It's odd that you guys are usually waking up when we're finished with the day and about to get a good night's sleep.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying that Mojo!  Funny how I'm now considering breeding my blue girl. I'm just so in love with the long haired satin on blue. Didn't expect that! But I also pine for BE cream or BEW or whatever I can manage. The joys of test breedings - you never know what will pop out and what you'll fall in love with. Unfortunately it means roughly three litters, thus culling a lot of babies. I really need to find a reptile owner that I trust!

Haha! Yes it's always been difficult to correspond with any friends who have moved to Australia or NZ. One would say goodnight as the other says good morning.


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