# Protein requirements



## moustress

I wanted to reopen the discussion of protein and the requirements for breeding meeces, nursing does, pregnant does, and non-breeding meeces. The older thread had a lot of information but way too much noise. I thought that non-breeding mousies needed only around 15% protein, and exceeding that, say to over 20%, was potentially harmful. I'd like clarification on how much is too much, and what the consequences are of too little or too much protein.

I don't need to hear excruciatingly detailed info on amino acids or the natural processes that create protein. I would like to know how to calculate the amount of protein in a piece of kibble or a piece of egg yolk. I already know the protein content of the grains and seeds I use. I suspect that what I really need, though, is gram scale to measure the weight of tiny dietary components. I don't think there's a problem with the diet I feed my meeces, but I like to be sure.


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## geordiesmice

A large egg contains 6.5 grams in total protein of which the egg white is 3.6grams.
29.48 grams of protein in 1lb of dog biscuits it depends on the type though


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## WNTMousery

Currently, my mice get a lab block that is 23% protein and a mix that is mostly oats with some puffed brown rice and a finch seed blend. About 1/4 of that mix is made up of various high quality dog and cat foods that range from 22% up to 42% protein (grain-free foods have the highest protein). I also give my momma mice extra grain-free dog and cat foods for the added protein during gestation and nursing.

If you have any pet supply stores or pet specialty stores that sell high quality dog food, you can usually get a bunch of the samples for free. Also, some stores mark down the foods when they are about to expire (the food doesn't actually go bad for quite some time after the expiry date). I get most of my high quality dog and cat foods for 50% off the regular price this way.

I think the quality of the protein is an important factor, too. Just something to think about.


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## geordiesmice

I agree WNTMousery I use pedigree chum small bite which is good quality and the mice dont leave any its protein content is 11.5%.As you say the place I buy it had lots of different types and would give you samples but I went looking for this particular one as it was recomended on this forum and sure enough the mice really like it and there looking healthy too which is the main thing.


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## WNTMousery

11.5% is very low, except for possibly senior dogs. Also, pedigree foods are all low quality. They are horrible for dogs, but are not as bad for mice, since mice eat grains.


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## moustress

I use Professional Brand Puppy Chow made with lamb and rice, kind of hard to find...27% protein, with no corn or other noxious ingredients. It's so high in protein, that the meeces get just one little chunk every other day unless they are nursing or pregnant, The pieces are small enough for even young meeces to handle it.


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## nuedaimice

Protein content is important, but type of protein is more important. Animal proteins have natural amino acids which help animals break down and use the protein properly. Protein from plant matter does not.

And grains are not bad for dogs. They are just harder to digest which means premium dog foods take the time to both cook and grind the grains so its easier for the dog to digest it. Dogs are actually omnivores, not carnivores. Dogs CAN develop allergies from eating large amounts of the same type of grain over a prolonged period of time, but not all dogs do. Just like a person can develop allergies to wood after working in a saw mill their whole life, a dog fed the same type of carbohydrate and protein source every single day for a year could most certainly develop an allergy to it. People don't eat the exact same thing every single day, so its not the same.

I try to rotate my dogs' food between 3-4 different premium brands every month. If you do it regularly, it actually does not cause the dog to get an upset stomach and none of my dogs have ever had allergies to any protein or carbohydrate source. I still feed a premium food so that they can actually obtain the proper nutrients from the food and digest the grains instead of pooping the excess in the yard.

Even in the wild dogs consume grains, vegetables, etc. from both eating it (not so much grains, as it is hard for them to digest naturally) and from eating the stomachs of their prey which contain partially digested grain. This is why there is some debate as to whether or not a dog is a carnivore or an omnivore.

(My preference for my dogs and mice is a rotation of Solid Gold, Bil-Jac, and Natural Balance - and, occasionally, Eukanuba or Royal Canin - all of my animals also receive a vegetarian vitamin supplement that has given me fabulous results on my dogs and cats).


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## moustress

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about vegetarian diets; the right combinations of veggie protein does give a full dietary complement of proteins, for example beans and rice. The human body builds enzymes that allow the digestion of proteins. How does mousie digestion and enzymes differ in this regard?


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## nuedaimice

I wasn't really talking about vegetarian diets at all. I was talking about a dog's dietary needs. What I'm trying to say about protein, is that its more important to have a complete "high quality" protein (with all the essential amino acids) than to just have a lot of protein. Does that make sense?

I mean even if you feed 23% protein, if their body can not break it down and use it, then what's the point? Its the same as not feeding them enough protein.


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## smileysal

As we keep hens our lot regularly get scrambled egg but it looks like I will have to go shopping for some dog kibbles too!
Greeat advice, thanks folks!


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## moustress

I only regularly feed egg to pregnant or nursing does; it's the most easily 'bioavailable' protein. Kibble is also given every day to these same meeces. For the regular population, I don't consider extra protein beyond the lump of kibble every other day to be necessary. My whole thrust in starting this thread was to find out 1) how much protein (what percentage of daily calories) is good at different life stages and 2) how much is too much.


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## geordiesmice

Pedigree small bite is for small dogs and puppies as a mixer .I thought you can give mice too much protein, I understood 11.5% protein would be ample as im feeding grains etc with proteins in them and other foods containing protein what isthe maximum daily ammount of protein a mouse should have?If your feeding kibble with a % of protein in the 20s plus other foods with proteins you could end up with problems giving them too much.Im sticking with the pedigree small bite my mice dont suffer from it anyway.


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## moustress

Kibble is only one ingredient of my mousies diet; 80 to 90% of it is whole grains with a little safflower seed added, and assorted other stuff as I think of it. So a young mousie that's growing quickly might eat the lump of kibble and just a little of everything else on that day, but the next day there would be no kibble. An adult mousie will eat the kibble and then start on the grains; I put in less of the grain and seed mix on the evening I give the kibble as I know they don't won't be as hungry after scarfing the kibble. As I remember, the protein content of grains ranges from 9% to 12%.

As far as prgnant does is concerned, I wonder about stress on their kidneys from too much protein. Is that possible and if so at what point is it too much protein?j I have not had much trouble with pregnancy, so I'm pretty sure I'm not overfeeding the protein, but I would like to know, as longevity is an important goal for me, as I keep all the breeders for their natural lifespan.

Nonbreeding mousies rarely get anything high in protein outside of the kibble every other day. I think things balance out OK. I didn't mean to imply that they ear only kibble; that would be excessive to point of being ridiculous. I have read on this Forum about at least one breeders feeding a diet with 40% protein which I consider excessive. Even pregnant or nursing does probably don't need wuite that much! Am I right?


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## geordiesmice

I think your right too much protein in the kidneys can cause many dissorders and diseases when I feed the mice I just sprinkle some kibble on the other food because mixing it in with it being heavier it sinks into the grain anyway.People who show there mice and win shows will know how much protein a mouse should have and of course a show mouse is large normally than a pet mouse so it may differ slightly.I feed in the morning and at 8pm sometimes the mice havnt ate much through the night but clear it all by mid morning.Im going out today too look at different kibbles but im still sticking to the 11.5% pedigree small bite my miceare healthy not fat or skinny and have no pregnancy problems so Im feeding as I do.Never tried saflower Moustress you can buy seeds such as niger, groats which I use sunflower hearts I avoid too fatty.


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## moustress

My meeces of course eat all the stuff they like first, but they almost always have some oats or wheat stashed to nosh on in between feedings, which I only do once a day except in certain cases like hand feeding babies and extra grub for expectant mothers.
I do get other seeds from time to time as I can tell the little darlings like to find something new in their feed from time to time. they eat Nyger seed happily, when I get it...I'm not sure what oat graoats are..is that the same as bulghar wheat?


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## SarahY

Groats are the oats with the husks removed 

Sarah xxx


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## geordiesmice

I was given a sample of kibble today 28% protein Burgess Supadog chicken and naked oats there as hard as bullets lol,it is a complete puppy food hence the high protein seems avery high % of protein to Me fo rMice but the seller said it would be ideal in a mice mix especially for baby meeces anyone got any comments on this or even heard of this food.


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## Stina

I personally think that's a good level of protein for something to mix in, especially for nursing and young mice as it will bring up their overall protein level a bit. If its not all they're eating, the level of protein they injest isn't going to be 28%....it probaby won't bring it up all that much regardless unless it is a significant portion of the diet.


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## geordiesmice

Hi Stina I have been using a puppy mixer but its between 10 and 11.5 % not very high in protein the mice eat it all and look good on it plus the pups are healthy and there is no waste.But I am feeding other protein such as scrambled egg and mealworms to all the mice including nursing and pregnant Does do you think I should change to this puppy food with the 28%level of protein ?obviously I have to take into account the poultry grains and wild bird seeds in the mix, as they will have a level of protein too  .


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## Stina

the bird seed will have very low levels of protein...usually under 10%...the poultry grain it depends on what's in it...if you mean just like scratch grain, then it is very low in protein as well. The eggs and mealworms definitely have high levels of protein and are good boosters. Most of the dog food my rodents get is ~20-23% protein, but they also get a very small amount of the food we give our dogs (which is very high quality grain free food..which DOES have veggies in it...grain free doesn't mean all meat) that is over 30% protein. My rodents are currently getting a mix that is 1/3 lab block (harlan teklad 18% protein), 2/9 oats, 1/6 dog food (22% protein), 1/9 wild bird seed, 1/9 multi grain cheerios, and 1/18 grain free dog food (over 30% protein). I haven't calculated the total protein, but it should be somehwere around 20%.


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