# the mice that crop up in litters by chance not design.



## SarahC

Awful dark argentes in fawn litters.I've never liked them but no amount of pruning them out gets rid of them










and then my silver greys unexpectedly and annoyingly produced a litter of blues.Every one of the litter blue.Grr.As time has gone on though they have turned into silver blues.You can see on this one that it has silvered up with just the head to go.Quite pretty but relocated to the pet shop.


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## SarahY

It was champagne and silver in my dove litters that used to pee me off. There's nothing more annoying than not getting a choice on what you keep and having to keep the only two dove does in a pile of silver and champagne babies! :roll:

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC

yes and the odd colours that you don't want are always the best of the bunch.I also had a blue satin,all those months of trying to produce them out of silvers that turned out to be doves and not a one.Now randomly after getting rid of all my blues one turns up,also relocated to the pet shop since it was to attractive for the freezer.


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## Roland

SarahC said:


> Awful dark argentes in fawn litters.I've never liked them but no amount of pruning them out gets rid of them
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> Give them to me, I am working hard to get Argente dark. I need them for breeding Splashed Argente Cream, which are very beautiful, if they are dark. Some of mine are allready darker :twisted:


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## SarahC

let me know next time you are over and they are all yours.They are the ugliest mice I have seen.


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## Roland

SarahC said:


> Awful dark argentes in fawn litters.I've never liked them but no amount of pruning them out gets rid of them[/quote="SarahC"]
> 
> The genetical reason for thgis is simple: Ay is a lethal mutation which can never ever breed true. All existing dominant reds are Ay/A or Ay/a. If your cross two red Ay/A with each other, the homozygotous Ay/Ay die in utero before they are born. Ay/A x Ay/A gives 25% Ay/Ay which are never born, 50% Ay/A which are what you want, and 25% A/A.
> Since Fawn is nothing else than a pinkeyed dominant red, by breeding two fawns the same happens, but you get 25% Argente instead of 25% of Agouti.
> 
> It is biologically impossible to get rid of them, because Ay is lethal and never ever breeds true.
> 
> Best regards, Roland


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## SarahC

Roland said:


> SarahC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Awful dark argentes in fawn litters.I've never liked them but no amount of pruning them out gets rid of them[/quote="SarahC"]
> 
> It is biologically impossible to get rid of them, because Ay is lethal and never ever breeds true.
> 
> Best regards, Roland
Click to expand...

thank you for your expertise,how dreadfully disappointing but at least I know that they will be an eternal thorn in my side.


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## Jack Garcia

SarahY said:


> There's nothing more annoying than not getting a choice on what you keep...


Oh, how I agree!

My last couple of red litters have been 6-8 cinnamons and 1-2 reds.


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## Lottiz

SarahC said:


> and then my silver greys unexpectedly and annoyingly produced a litter of blues.Every one of the litter blue.Grr.As time has gone on though they have turned into silver blues.You can see on this one that it has silvered up with just the head to go.Quite pretty but relocated to the pet shop.


And I can take this one :love1 
I already have this couple, not true pearl, but aa/Bd/dd/si/si
I really love their eyes and personality.

The buck


















and the doe









this picture is a little dark


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## Jack Garcia

I get awfully-dark cinnamons in my red litters!


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## Roland

SarahC said:


> thank you for your expertise,how dreadfully disappointing but at least I know that they will be an eternal thorn in my side.


Sarah, you are welcome. You don't like them, and I am greedy to get some as dark as possible. I struggle very hard to darken my Argente Cream without loosing type, not to think about any chance to improve type. Your "waste" would be gold for me. I need very dark Argente to improve mine, because I have a totally different goal, I want to breed Splashed Argente Cream with a high contrast of rich colours. The mice shown below are a start, but I have no chance to improve the contrast and type by linebreeding or inbreeding.

Roland


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## Roland

Jack Garcia said:


> I get awfully-dark cinnamons in my red litters!


Give them to studs who want to breed tans with dark bellies, since there are little dark tan in the USA.


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## moustress

I have blues like that; not what I wanted, but pretty anyway. And I really like the darker argentes; I consider the standard to be way too light for my taste. You probably get better fawn with agouti than you would with the recessive, I would think.

And I think it is still amazing all the different shades one can get out of that A locus in all it's permutations. Watching the wild meeces scatter from the compost pile was a real eye opener.


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## SarahY

Fawn with agouti instead of a pink eyed dilute is red Moustress 

I like the fact that argente is pale gold. If one wants a stud of bright orange mice, then one breeds fawn. There's no point having argentes and fawns that you can't tell apart until you get close enough to blow the fur, is there?

Sarah xxx


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## Megzilla

I like it when argentes are pale in colour  Personally I don't like fawns, but I love a good red!


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## Jack Garcia

Roland said:


> Jack Garcia said:
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> I get awfully-dark cinnamons in my red litters!
> 
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> Give them to studs who want to breed tans with dark bellies, since there are little dark tan in the USA.
Click to expand...

I do, actually. I've given them to four people so far.


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## Roland

SarahY said:


> Fawn with agouti instead of a pink eyed dilute is red Moustress
> 
> I like the fact that argente is pale gold. If one wants a stud of bright orange mice, then one breeds fawn. There's no point having argentes and fawns that you can't tell apart until you get close enough to blow the fur, is there?
> 
> Sarah xxx


red can be Agouti or non agouti: Ay/A or Ay/a

Fawns are fat mice; Argente are not. Ay is a lethal gene, as discussed in another (without good reason closed) thread.
Combinations of A with cch/cch looks different from Ay with cch/cch


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## Roland

Jack Garcia said:


> I do, actually. I've given them to four people so far.


Great, so I can feel like an US grandpa too


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## SarahY

> red can be Agouti or non agouti: Ay/A or Ay/a


Yes, I'm aware of that. In this case Moustress was talking about replacing argente with agouti specifically - and a fawn made with agouti (Ay/A P/*) rather than a pink eyed dilute like argente is a red 



> Fawns are fat mice; Argente are not. Ay is a lethal gene, as discussed in another (without good reason closed) thread


Aaaah yes, but UK fanciers/exhibitors like their fawns and argentes as they are 

What about if we had recessive fawn though? The problems you have with other fanciers breeding Ay are removed but it's still utterly pointless if fawn and argente look the same!

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

Recessive red/fawn does not get as red as dominant red/fawn. It can be close, but nothing rivals the fawns that SarahC produces (for example).

Mice are the only animal with an Ay/* mutation that produces red fur, and it's no coincidence that we also have the reddest animals. Other species have e/e (recessive red/fawn) and their animals aren't nearly as deep, rich red as a properly-bred Ay/* mouse.


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## SarahY

Agreed, Sarah's fawns are spectacular.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

SarahY said:


> Agreed, Sarah's fawns are spectacular.
> 
> Sarah xxx


They make me jealous!


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## Roland

I am sure not the Ay or the e/e are responsible for the brightness and darkness of red mice, but pheomelanine enhancing factors selected over many years. You see this phenomenon when you look at the Argente, which pop up from Sarah's fawn, and you will see terrible and pale Ay when you breed dark Ay to pale Champagne. Therefore I am very confident that we will be able to transfer these modifying factors to show very nice recessive reds soon. I have Golden Agoutis sitting here, which are carriers for e and I hope to get true breeding stock of great e/e already from next generation on. Keep your fingers crossed!

Roland


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## Stina

Jack....haven't you ever seen an Irish Setter?......they're e/e and pretty spectacularly red.......I don't think I've ever seen a mouse that quite approaches the depth of an irish setter.


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## SarahC

I've got some pretty dark fawns and reds.Not as deep and vibrant as the setter but not to far off.I've also got some very dark argentes.The deeper colour comes with draw backs though.Snipey heads etc.My camera card is full but when I've cleared it I'll put a couple of pictures up.


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## Stina

I was mainly stating/showing that for Jack's benefit....as that is an e/e animal that is at least as deep and vibrant a red as the best Ay reds. I just think no one has bred e/e mice towards that coloration for as long as people have been breeding Ay reds towards it....I think it should be possible to achieve at least the depth of color that dominant reds are with e/e.....but without the consequences of Ay gene.


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## SarahC

I'm sure you are right,if only I understood :roll: One of the good things about the forum for me,I have no interest in genetics but if I do need to know something people are happy to share their knowledge


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## Jack Garcia

How long as e/e been around and bred for in dogs compared to mice? That might have something to do with it, as well.


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## Stina

It's probably a very significant difference....Europe, so far as I'm aware, never had e until recently, and the US has been hobby breeding mice for a much shorter period of time...and most of the people breeding e/e mice like the yellow coloration...so so far as I'm aware, few people have bred e/e for redness.


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## moustress

I've been working with recessive yellow for a few years now, and I think there is no reason whatsoever that a deep red can be drawn out, given enough time. A modifier is only a changed code, one that has been pushed towards a goal, not something truly new. I believe it can be done.


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## SarahC

This months rejects,an argente so dark it could pass as a self fawn and a peculiar coloured broke which I am keeping in the hopes that it may throw an odd eyed mouse,I don't know why but I have a feeling it might and I really desire one


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## SarahY

It's quite an attractive broken though! Have you made your own tricolour?

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC

That thought crossed my mind.Strange that after all these years of line breeding oddities still pop out.I only have black eyed brokens and out pops this.


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## ian

Wierd but a very attractive mouse all the same, I have a similar one but is black eyed so mines obviously just a run of the mill ce dilute.


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## SarahC

I suspect its a siamese Ian.Not that I've crossed them but I guess pews will be in their heritage some where and thats what introduces unwanted colours.


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## Myth

They're some pretty looking rejects !

But there's no accounting for taste I suppose :lol:


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## tinyhartmouseries

> Give them to studs who want to breed tans with dark bellies, since there are little dark tan in the USA.


  You know I'm stretching my arms to St. Louis....


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## SarahC

silvered lilac










pink eyed cream,I like these.Not quite what I'm after but exceptionally pretty to my eyes,not the best pic tho


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## SarahY

They're both lovely! I'm quite taken with the silvered lilac...

Sarah xxx


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## SarahC

the picture doesn't do it justice.Not only is it very pretty but it has beautiful type which is why I've kept him.I've got another mouse to share,bit young to get a photo.If I'd tried to breed one I never would have got one this good in a million years.Watch this space.


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## Tinkers Mousery

i will take on any unwanted mice for me to have as pets as i also breed for pet use. cash is offered for any rejects


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## smileysal

Why an odd eye? Is that very rare? Can you show them? Or is it just that you fancy a quirky mouse?!


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## SarahC

smileysal said:


> Why an odd eye? Is that very rare? Can you show them? Or is it just that you fancy a quirky mouse?!


odd eyes are not desirable at all for showing.I just covet them.


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## smileysal

So do I now!!! LOL :lol:


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## SevenlevelsofDante

I'm drooling over these unwanted mice! We don't have any breeders in CT, so if you want mice, you get pet store PEWs...although the guy at my pet store just said they could order some for me, I'm just not sure I'd like anything they'd have to offer.

I want those blues on the first page...BADLY.


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## SarahC

distance is always a problem ,it's bad enough in the U.K but it's so much worse for you.Especially with the ever rising fuel costs.


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## SarahC

Fancy Mice Wales said:


> i will take on any unwanted mice for me to have as pets as i also breed for pet use. cash is offered for any rejects


I don't have the space to keep everything for what is often many weeks before they could be collected.I don't keep mice to make money and even if I did,by the time they had been fed for the extra weeks I wouldn't make anything.It's just impractical for me hence I limit the mice I supply to those who need a start in exhibition mice and do not charge for them.


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## Tinkers Mousery

yea i understand. i breed a seperate batch of mice to supply pet shops and was just a though that if you had anything you didnt want i would either collect if there was a few or if you had something around the date of i show i could collect from there. was just a though thats all


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## SarahC

see Matt,when you don't want to produce them you get four in one litter.
argente banded.It's the law of sods


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## Matt Haslam

Sarah, give me please!


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## SarahC

a mono browed mouse


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## candycorn

That is super cute. I would call it Groucho!


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## Cait

Sarah, you're old enough to know better than to draw on your mice with a felt tip :lol:


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## Laigaie

Frida Kahlo! And other than the brow, a total cutie.


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## moustress

Gotta love those crazy brindles.


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## Autumn2005

What kind of brindle is that? It almost looks like it has white brindle marks... or it that just the angle of light/camera?


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## Frizzle

Laigaie said:


> Frida Kahlo! And other than the brow, a total cutie.


100% agreed! Its so roley-poley, lol.


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## Rhasputin

Autumn2005 said:


> What kind of brindle is that? It almost looks like it has white brindle marks... or it that just the angle of light/camera?


It is very likely some kind of red or yellow x-brindle.


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## SarahC

I've been making blue brindles,the foundation stock were red brindles.I crossed blue into them but the red has been v.difficult to overide.I've had a few of these inbetweenies,bit of orange and black.I've got 2 blue brindles now although the litter has been weak.Not sure why,could be because the does are first time mothers or maybe something wrong with them.Anyway I've kept just 3 which is disappointing,2 blue brindle and one black brindle.


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## SarahC

candycorn said:


> That is super cute. I would call it Groucho!


good idea that,next time I get a puppy I'm going to call on you for name ideas.


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## Velvet_Meece

Does anyone have a picture of a show standard argente?


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## Rhasputin

This is a fairly nice argente: http://www.jacksmousery.com/apps/photos ... d=79101655

(a little pale for my liking though)


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## SarahC

Rhasputin said:


> (a little pale for my liking though)


it lacks the intermingled silver hairs that make the coat sparkle.Loganberry had good argentes although she's moved on to new varieties now.
viewtopic.php?f=77&t=6656


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## Rhasputin

SarahC said:


> Rhasputin said:
> 
> 
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> (a little pale for my liking though)
> 
> 
> 
> it lacks the intermingled silver hairs that make the coat sparkle.Loganberry had good argentes although she's moved on to new varieties now.
> viewtopic.php?f=77&t=6656
Click to expand...

Thank you! Maybe, pale wasn't the right word I was looking for. maybe 'luster' was what it was lacking. 
Yes, lovely.


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## Velvet_Meece

Thanks very much!

I have a colony of them, each of them are very different to the other and i'm lost as to which i should focus on! That will help a lot. My male is probably the closest but he's far too small.

I guess its kind of like a shimmering fawn over blue. Btw the babies in that thread are mahoosive!


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