# Genetics calculator



## Megzilla

Would it be possible for someone to make one of these? It would be handy, especially for people new to genetics. I know there's a corn snake genetic calculator, but my friend said it didn't work because the person who made it didn't do a proper job.

If one was make, could it be put on the forum, like with the games?


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## thekylie

There is a rabbit one floating around somewhere too. And a few horse ones. I dunno how to code one though.  Or all the genetics I'd need to make one. I agree it would be a great help just for the basics, even if you couldn't factor in all the different surprises that pop up.


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## Rhasputin

My boyfriend could probably code one. 
Don't know if he'd do one for free though. :lol:


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## Rhasputin

Just talked with him. He says it sounds easy enough. Might need some cash to grease his palms, but it seems like can do it.


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## bethmccallister

mouserydatabase.com has one but you have to buy the yearly subscription inorder to use the calculator (the normal database use is free and easy to use). I use it to keep track of my lines but I haven't successfully used the calculator yet because you have to start with the current genetics of mice that are recorded in your database. It's worth mentioning though because overall its a great tool.


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## JustMouse

I think the cornsnake calculator does work fine, just as a little side note. There are a couple of newer varieties that aren't recorded in it but the ones included are correct!


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## Rhasputin

Good grief! $30 to use the one in the mousery database PER PERSON! Yeowch! :lol:


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## bethmccallister

I know, that's per year too. I am a web programmer too (not one that made this specific database) and I happen to know the amount of work that would have been involved. Programmers are not cheap, I think my employer charges $125 an hour for web programming. I used the database for about a year before I broke down and bought this years subscription, lol. I'm an online gamer too, I think I pay $14 a month just to have my character active in World of WarCraft :shock:


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## Megzilla

Do you reckon if enough people vote in we could get one on the forum? Even if it's for paying members. Like, with known colours and markings etc.

I'm with mousery database, but i'm not willing to pay that much for a few litter checks xD


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## Rhasputin

It would be nice if one of the mods (shiprat does most of the tech stuff, right?) could make one. But if not, we can get enough people to donate a few dollars, and commission one. Nathan says he'll make one, for us, for $20.


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## Jack Garcia

As the world's #1 laboratory animal, mice have more known coat- and color-affecting mutations than any other animal. That's why a genetics calculator might work for rabbits or snakes or even cats, but not mice.

There's no need for a calculator, though. Genetics is not some mind-boggling, incomprehensible jibberish but neither is it simple mathematics. It has twists and turns that calculators will not perceive, but which are perfectly understandable by the human mind if the effort is made.

One of the problems with a mouse genetics calculator is that in order to be comprehensive it would have to deal with non-Mendelian traits (a classic example is umbrous and its dominance modification of heterozygous non-agouti but nothing else) and thousands of possibilities on any one mouse. You can't rely just on Mendelian traits to tell you what a mouse will be or what it will look like. In that vein, how would a calculator deal with dominance modification, or epistasis?

You don't have to understand an ounce of genetics to be a winning breeder, although it can help--there have been plenty of BISs won by people who do not sit at home and ponder genes all day. If your mind is smart enough to design a calculator or to recognize an apparent need for one, it is smart enough to grasp the material in question--it's just a matter of effort. Genetic inheritance (Mendelian and non-) is an understandable but nuanced science and it is open to nearly everybody. It makes me sad to see people rely on partially-accurate calculators (especially ones you have to pay for). This is something I care a lot about, needless to say!


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## Megzilla

I know it's not hard, it just may help some people who are new to breeding and may not want to ask. Only covering the basics such as Chocolate, Champagne, Black etc that are commonly found in petshops. Just as a rough outline-you know? Of course you couldn't give a 100% prediction on any litter, there just may be a gene mutation or a hidden allele that just pops up.

I know that once you know what you're doing it's easy- but finding out what the litter would create ahead of time of without having a litter could help the understanding genetics. Especially with independant learners who don't like asking for help, or if people offer to help it pushes them away. I know i'm a lot like that and you'll rarely find me asking for help with most things  Personally I find genetics easy and I _love_ it, but i'm just thinking of people who learn like me that may find it harder to pick up.


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## Matt Haslam

if he can make one for $20, i'd be up for that. not sure i have the time at the moment.

we could start a fund to a add donations to for it.


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## Megzilla

ah cool!  Well it's just a thought, i'll let you techies sort it out


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## Rhasputin

I was gonna ask if we could start a fund of sorts. 

He says since it's simple math, it will be pretty easy for him to program it to work. Of course, someone who knows genes well might have to speak up a few times to help us out in making it.


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## bethmccallister

Jack, your post fills me with inspiration and gives me hope that some day I may possess the "knowing".


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## SarahY

It really is very easy 

Sarah xxx


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## bethmccallister

What is the best reference material available for simplified learning about genetics? Is there a certain website or text book or manual? Thanks guys!


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## Megzilla

I have a word document I copy and pasted from a good mouse genetics website before it stopped working. If you pm me your email then I can send it to you  It explains about mendel's theory and possibly a few others. I learnt the basics of genetics through it. It also lists mouse colours and their Loci on the DNA etc. Very good

I also learnt through this site http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/index.html

I had one of my tutors at college explain to me the coding because I did an investigative project on mouse genetics (to distinction level my ego would like to add )


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## Jack Garcia

Finnmouse is my favorite. Skip the varieties section, and go to the genetics section.

On the A-locus, we have Ay, Avy, Ahvy, Aw, A, at, a, and ae, _all of which_ are found in the pet population, plus some rarer ones such as am which, for the sake of convenience you might not include. Each one has its own story and method of operation with the others, so just considering the "common" alleles like these, you can see how a calculator would quickly be made unfeasible, or at least a lot more expensive than $20.

Throw in the B-locus (B, bc, b) and the C-locus, wherein 4 out of 5 alleles we have in the pet trade are co-dominant (ce, ch, cch, ci), and you see how a calculator would not be able to tell you that a mouse who is Aw/a ce/ch would look different from a mouse who was A/a ce/ch (this is just a simple example). More importantly, I think, a calculator cannot tell you _why_.

The alleles we have in the pet trade are A, B, Bt, C, Ca, D, E, Fr, Fz, Go, Hr, Lh, Mobr, Nu, P, Re, Rst, S, Sa, Si, Spl, U, V, W and others (such as roan, merle, and ruby-eyed). I don't know how a $20 calculator could include all these unless you decided to pick and choose which you included. But if you do that you'll leave very important information out since all of these exist in the fancy and interact with each other.

It's like typing in "2+2=" and getting "5" because the calculator doesn't know that the number 4 exists or because the designer of the calculator decided 4 wasn't a common enough locus to include. A human mind with a basic grasp of numbers would never make the same mistake.


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## Matt Haslam

Jack Garcia said:


> Finnmouse is my favorite. Skip the varieties section, and go to the genetics section.
> 
> On the A-locus, we have Ay, Avy, Ahvy, Aw, A, at, a, and ae, _all of which_ are found in the pet population, plus some rarer ones such as am which, for the sake of convenience you might not include. Each one has its own story and method of operation with the others, so just considering the "common" alleles like these, you can see how a calculator would quickly be made unfeasible, or at least a lot more expensive than $20.
> 
> Throw in the B-locus (B, bc, b) and the C-locus, wherein 4 out of 5 alleles we have in the pet trade are co-dominant (ce, ch, cch, ci), and you see how a calculator would not be able to tell you that a mouse who is Aw/a ce/ch would look different from a mouse who was A/a ce/ch (this is just a simple example). More importantly, I think, a calculator cannot tell you _why_.
> 
> The alleles we have in the pet trade are A, B, Bt, C, Ca, D, E, Fr, Fz, Go, Hr, Lh, Mobr, Nu, P, Re, Rst, S, Sa, Si, Spl, U, V, W and others (such as roan, merle, and ruby-eyed). I don't know how a $20 calculator could include all these unless you decided to pick and choose which you included. But if you do that you'll leave very important information out since all of these exist in the fancy and interact with each other.
> 
> It's like typing in "2+2=" and getting "5" because the calculator doesn't know that the number 4 exists or because the designer of the calculator decided 4 wasn't a common enough locus to include. A human mind with a basic grasp of numbers would never make the same mistake.


have to agree with this post; not sure it is 'simple' maths, but if someone wants to make one then go for it i say!


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## thekylie

Idk, I don't picture this as something real breeders would use. But for people who are like OMG MY BOY MOUSE IS BLACK WITH WHITE SPOTS AND MY GIRL MOUSE IS GREY WHAT COLORS WILL THEY HAVE!?!?! it might be of interest. I would imagine something like this would only use the simplest and broadest genes. Which would make most breeders cringe (I would too), but I could see how people who just have pets could have fun with it.

http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp

This is similar to what I would imagine would be useful, only with the first page of drop downs being colors, and the second "advanced" options being marked patterns, etc.


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## bethmccallister

LOL, just had a look at the calculator above. Where do I get a Palomino Chestnut mouse! I want one! :lol:


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## Rhasputin

The calculator above, is for horses. I imagine that a mouse calculator would work in a similar way. I think it would be a great teaching tool, for mouse genetics. 

It will never replace a human's calculating abilities for mouse genes, and won't be able to compensate for every single gene imaginable, but it will be greatly useful.


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## thekylie

Rhasputin said:


> The calculator above, is for horses.


I probably should have specified that in my post. XD

Although I'm pretty sure if you worked with the reds enough you'd get a mouse pretty close to a chestnut palomino.


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## Rhasputin

I'd love to have a mouse with the webbing pattern that horses can sometimes get. I think it's caused by a virus, that attacks genetic materials, actually, but there's been someone posting pics on here of a mouse that has the same pattern.

'Lacing' I think it's called.
ntopic 
:lol:


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## tipex

hello

i work with FarbmausPro II ...... it is on german... but it is very good

free download and you have a calculator.... for your Mice management you must buy it

http://www.gdvl.de/html/download.html









LG Tipex


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## Rhasputin

Now THAT'S great!


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## mousemad

It was me with the wierd looking mouse


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## thekylie

Tipex that calculator looks awesome! And I know just enough German to be really confused by everything lol. Is there a way to set it to English?

If not I guess I'm going to learn how to talk to Germans about mice really well. XD I'll travel abroad and be able to ask where the bathroom is, and discuss the loci of my favorite mice lol. All the important things you know.


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## windyhill

Theres a few Genetics calculators out there for just about everything,lol.
It would be great to have one for mice


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## tipex

> Tipex that calculator looks awesome! And I know just enough German to be really confused by everything lol. Is there a way to set it to English?
> 
> If not I guess I'm going to learn how to talk to Germans about mice really well. XD I'll travel abroad and be able to ask where the bathroom is, and discuss the loci of my favorite mice lol. All the important things you know.


LOL it is the same like me.... i must learn english...for talking here... I am not good in language...... I know that... i am more a math or creativ typ lol

but i will try it:O)

LG Tipex


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## Megzilla

thekylie said:


> Idk, I don't picture this as something real breeders would use. But for people who are like OMG MY BOY MOUSE IS BLACK WITH WHITE SPOTS AND MY GIRL MOUSE IS GREY WHAT COLORS WILL THEY HAVE!?!?! it might be of interest. I would imagine something like this would only use the simplest and broadest genes. Which would make most breeders cringe (I would too), but I could see how people who just have pets could have fun with it.


Could avoid a few bad mixes of test litters. (e.g both parents are fairly wild and then the owner can't find new homes for the pups etc). I'm certainly not saying test litters aren't a bad thing, but in some cases they can be  And yeah, just for people who are interested.

Tipex, i've downloaded it.. but can I change the language to English? Or do I have to remember German?


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## tipex

no ....Mice are only in German... but i can translate so i can help... 

i think the name are in english... so blue tan...and black...ect.. i make a Instructions  with pics It need a bit time but i try it... lg tipex


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## neurozool

I sent an email to the person who created that tool to ask if it were possible to get it in english. Maybe if enough people email him, he will build it. Just an idea.

You can find his email here: http://www.gruen-development.com/html/impressum.html

And this site is OK at english to german, although I always include my english message as well, as most non-english speakers can speak english and if the german translation makes no sense, then they can understand what you mean from your english message. 
http://translate.google.com/#


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## bethmccallister

I emailed him also. Thank you!


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## tipex

neurozool very good idea :thumbuo :clap :clap :clap :clap


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## bethmccallister

I wanted to let you all know that I heard back from the creator of FarbmausPro...this is what he had to say:

We work on an English translation of our fancy mice software.
Release date 2/2011.

Kind regards,
Klaus Gruen


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## tipex

Perfect

LG tipex


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## thekylie

Yay!


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## neurozool

Yup, I got the same email! Just a few more months!!


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