# Breeding Plan + Blue & Champagne Mice in Southern Indiana?



## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Hello! I have been casually studying mouse genetics for a while and have just recently started to get a much larger understanding about how all the genes work together to make colors different and that sort of thing. I've looked at color varieties and have narrowed down what I think I would want to blues and champagnes. The real question is where could I get these colors or the colors to make these colors from? I live in Southern Indiana, and as such there aren't many(or any) show mice breeders. I've heard a lot on this forum and other places though that people have had luck at Petco's and places of that nature and have gotten there mice to show-quality within a few years. Is this a good place to start, at Petco that is? And does anyone know of pet stores that carry mice in Southern Indiana?

Side note & question: I would love to get some rosettes and/or ridgebacks and gremlins to fix into my line, though I doubt Petco or other chains carry them. Has anyone seen anything like this at chain pet stores?


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## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Additionally, I did a few hypo-matings with a Punnett Square calculator, and I was trying to figure out what an aabbddCCpp mouse's color would be. I'm drawing a blank, and I've consulted all the information available to me and I can't figure it out.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Rosettes are incredibly rare in this country sadly, even with breeders you'd be hard pushed to find one. The only ones I know of are in Canada and Texas.

Gremlin is not a variety, its a mutation in the mouse that I don't think has been proven to be passed down.

aabbddCCpp = lavender (pink eyed lilac, with lilac being blue+chocolate everywhere but south cali)


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## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Thanks so much Lilly for your reply! Couldn't figure out for the life of me what it was! I figured it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to find any rosettes or ridgebacks (or the Gremlins for that matter), but maybe I'll get lucky. In any case, since it seams there aren't any breeders in my area, would it be a good idea to buy from a Petco or somewhere local? I don't really have money(or time) to ship from a far away area to me or to drive a long ways away, so would that still work?


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

It can work but it is harder. In that case you would be best to drive around the local petshops and look for the healthiest/biggest seeming, or ones that fit your goals in terms of colors etc.

Around my area Petsmart is a lot better than Petco in terms of providing healthy mice but another option is to see if there are some feeder breeders in your area. Although not all look after the mice well, quite a few have more pet type lines of colors that interest them.

You'll want to carefully monitor them and probably breed a bit later in life than you could do to check for any early onset of tumors and such and although not essential if starting this way I would really recommend reading up on culling techniques and being prepared to cull to only keep the best.

Best of luck in this!


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## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Ok, I'll definitely be keeping that in mind. As far as breeding later in life though, how much later? Around 5-6 months? I've read it's not a good idea to breed for the first time much past that, but I just want to clarify.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Yeh probably around 5-6 months would be fine. Pet type mice can often breed from 8 weeks but the downside of that is that while you can get numbers up quickly you also often breed before you know if there is any issues.

It is sad you were not around last year. We held a show in Indianapolis, however both breeders that hosted the show have gotten out of mice since.


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## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Obviously depending on what genes were at play would determine how long it would take to create a line that was free of tumors, but what would you estimation be, time wise? When do you think would be a suitable time to move to breeding at 12 weeks? The F1 generation? Farther along than that? Sorry for so many questions, I just want all the facts before I begin my search.


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## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Also, what is the typical breeders setup? Roughly how much space does each mouse have?


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

There is no typical breeder setup really but mice do not need that much space really.

A lot of breeders either make their own bin cages or get lab cages. Tanks are sometimes used but a lot harder to clean and prone to breaking.

Something like a Sterlite 16 QT bin (the ones that are lower but more surface area) is adequate for something like a breeding pair/trio, a buck on his own, a group of maybe 3 does or a mum and babies for a while. Although what is suitable very much depends on how often you clean and the bedding you use.

With regards to how many generations. Inbreeding will bring anything about sooner in most cases but sometimes it might still take a few generations to even see anything come up


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## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Thank you for your reply. I will definitely keep that in mind.


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## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Hello KingoftheWindlover,

Sounds like an interesting start, I wish you the best!

Regarding tank setup, I use following plastic container for all my mice: https://www.amazon.com/Sterilite-17...rd_wg=AXHIv&psc=1&refRID=PY1DXJSAK7J02QPHEFDA

Although, this one in the link is very expensive, $12.5 each. I acquired mine at Home Depot for $6 each. So you just have to look around for the best option for you.

If you are planning to breed on a large scale and consistently, I recommend plastic containers like above. They are very mobile and easy to change, cheap, fits a large wheel, and provide necessary space for your mice. If you have jumpers/climbers, you can put on the lid and drill holes on the top.

I house about 3-7 adult mice per tank.
If it is only a temporary set-up, like waiting for weaned mice to mature, I will house up to 20 sometimes. But I have to change the tank at-least once a week.

For water, I just use the metal backing holder type, with glass or plastic (glass is better long-run) water bottle.
For bedding, I use aspen. Pine is believe to cause respiratory problems.

People may disagree with this method, but I feed my mice a cheap brand of bulk dog food as their staple source. Additionally, every night I will drop meal leftovers, such as meat, cereal, veggies, peanut butter, etc. It works for me! Efficient and affordable.

If you have mice that you keep as pets or want to see constantly, you could use a glass tank but it is just a lot of unnecessary work.


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## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Thank you for the advice KanRen! I will certainly keep that in mind as well.


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## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

Just thought of this, but what kind of dog food do you feed?


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Just a quick thing, dog food is not really aimed to meet the nutritional needs of mice. Although KanRen does use that and I am sure it does ok, a bulk order of lab blocks is also pretty cheap (like $20-30 for 50lb of the cheaper one) and is formulated for rodents so would probably lead to more consistent results


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## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

I feed Pedigree Dog Food to my mice.
For breeding does, I feed "Adult Complete Nutrition" because of the additional fat supplementation. Everyone else gets "Healthy Weight" because of the lower fat and higher protein content. I provide additional fiber for the mice by occasionally mixing dry peas and oatmeal with the dog food.

I have raised my mice on this diet for over 20 generations. My mice average 11 pups each litter and an average life span of 1 year, 8 months. 
I recommend trying to maintain a consistent diet over the generations so that your mice can slowly adapt to what you feed them. Implement diversity as a specialty. Four of my adult mice will go through about a cup of this dog food every day, which is A LOT in my perspective.

With monthly coupons, I can get 55lb of Pedigree for about $10.00. As an individual who has to feed about 200 mice and pay college tuition, I am content.
TBH, their aspen bedding is more expensive than the food. :roll:


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## Dragonling (Apr 6, 2017)

Curious how much of the lab blocks they might consume daily by comparison. What if they need to eat half as much to get the same nutrition/calories? If so you're not really saving much money. I imagine you've already explored that possibility though.


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## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Well, I never conducted a viable test.

Although, in the past I've fed my mice Kaytee, Oxbow, and Harlan-Teklad. Harlan-Teklad is normally the 'popular' lab block brand, but it can be difficult to find a vender because they are often only used for research purposes, not commercial. In addition, the shipping costs for Harlan-Teklad $20.00 and up.

My mice hated Kaytee, and often refused to eat the lab blocks. They were more willing to eat Oxbow and Harlam-Teklad. Although, I have heard of health and nutrition concerns about Oxbow.

I tried all these brands' rodent mixes, often they were cheap ingredients and fillers, such as corn, etc.

Ultimately, everyone is going have to find their own individual method that works for their situation and mice. Everyone should try to do research on what they are feeding, provide consistency and minor variability with healthy foods. Then test it, and see the responses from your mice.

Interesting thread:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6748


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Native Earth (the commercial harlan teklad) is very cheap shipping (just throwing it out there) from places like pet360 but mazuri is also a pretty common choice and the lower protein version is available in a lot of feed stores (50 lb bags for like $20)

Personally though I use a mix as well because it just seems that they like it more than the lab blocks. Its made up of livestock feed (pellets, oats, grains) and ends up being about $0.41/lb so that does work out more expensive than the cheaper mazuri or your dog food but it is also a protein/fat content that I am happy with in terms of breeding to improve size/type of my lines.

I can see why the healthy weight does work though, 21% protein 7% fat is a pretty decent thing and the top ingredients are corn and wheat so in that respect mostly the same as the filler from the lab blocks anyway although the only price I can seem to be able to find that is $12 for 15/lb which is significantly more than you are paying or than my own mix


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