# The Curious Tale of Steve IV



## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

(He's actually asleep lol).

This is Steve IV. I thought I'd share what's going on at the moment since I would like some opinions and I've never seen it before.

I got Steve on Thursday. Since he was from a very reputable source, on Saturday I put him with his new harem. On Sunday he was wandering around with his head on one side, just like any tilter... And then Monday morning he was dead. o.o. Laying around the food bowl, feet in the air, didn't make a move when I opened the lid. So I picked him up and low and behold, the little bugger started spinning in my hand. Just fantastic on Halloween, I made a very undignified noise and just about managed not to drop him XD.

I've never seen a mouse do anything like it. He was literally spinning on his head, he couldn't manage any forward motion at all. So I put him in a little pet carrier with a low bottle and some scatter feed, made him a vet appointment and prepared for the worst. He had a normal dose of baytril at this point.

I caught him trying to eat seeds sideways, bless him XD. So I caved and decided to try him on some Lactol. I've had nightmare times hand feeding, mice end up with liquid on their lungs so easily, especially if they're unwilling. However, Steve nearly took my fingers off for the cotton bud lol. He obviously couldn't get his head up to the water bottle... So we embarked on a three hour hand feeding regime. As long as he was going to take it willingly, then I was happy to hand feed it him. As soon as he had some food and liquid in him, he was perky as ever. Not at all like a sick mouse, he's been bright eyed and perky ever since. He's naughty, he nibbles my fingers if I don't feed him fast enough XD.

The vet diagnosed one of two things; either a neurological problem like a stroke, or an infection in his inner ear that's pressing on his brain. An infection should clear up with antibiotics, where as a neurological problem would be permanent. The vet also insisted that I name him, hence Steve. Anyway, he has a week to either right himself, or not. If not, he'll have to be pts. But today he's walking again, even if only in circles.

Anyway, I'm interested to know other people's opinion about how I should decide ultimately whether or not to put him to sleep. He's a sweetie, I have no problem keeping him as a pet. I certainly won't be breeding from him now. Also, he's bitten through his tongue so he's on soft food only for a couple of weeks. Any recommendations? Right now the most solid he's managing is baby food.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I would have that mouse pts without hesitation.No decent quality of life on the horizen,the chances of a recovery are virtually nil and manhandling it is imo causing/prolonging unecessary suffering.As you've only just had it there's a possibility of cross contamination to your other mice if infection is involved as the vet has indicated.In view of all the recent health issues in your mice I wouldn't be adding new stock to the existing in anycase.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Oh yes. I found the cause of the recent health issues before I bought new stock. We've been sorted for a while. I've also been culling back the lesser stock I accumulated.

Is that sort of infection catching? I thought it was likely down to the stress of moving mouseries. I sincerely doubt he's bought an illness in with him.

I think you're probably right. That's why I asked, I'm too close to the problem to see it properly.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

with that particular animal even if it was a much loved pet I would say the kindest thing would be to have it pts.As you are a breeder I think you need to shift your outlook and remove ALL ill and inferior individuals without hesitation.Those greasy babies would have gone if they were mine.I really do think you need to take a step back.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Fair point. Those bubs likely will go to the snake anyway, I just like to know what the problem is XD.

I'm too soft. Always have been. That's why I like to get you guys honest advice.

As a side note, I do keep pet mice. As in, mice that are pets, not little pet shop types. That's why I have questions about ill or inferior animals XD. They are certainly never bred from. My pets and my breeding mice are separate from one another, and my approach to my show mice is completely different. Once my show lines are established my pets will likely be gone.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I know it's softness,I understand that but you need to toughen up for the good of the others.There is no sure answer without lab tests/autopsy which is not practical.I wouldn't feed those greasy mice to the reptiles.My dogs nearly died after eating some.Tests on the dogs never revealed the answer and I can't be 100% it was the greasy mice it might have been coincedence but it cost me hundreds of pounds and one dog was on a drip for a week.I would cull instantly EVERY time these days.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Oh yeuch. Yeah, not for the snake then. Morningstar vets all my culls for our snake anyway XD. She's convinced I will give it something.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I only use healthy mice as feeders,better safe than sorry.


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## AnnB (Jan 14, 2011)

I had a mouse with a similar problem to Steve. She'd had a bit of a sneeze but one morning I found her crawling round in circles on the bottom of the cage. I took her to the vet and they thought it was an inner ear infection. Stripe was making good progress with the baytril and metacam prescribed by the vet, her appetite had improved and she could drink from the water bottle but she sadly had some kind of fit one day and that was that.

Edited to add that Stripe lived with another female mouse who didn't ever become ill with the same thing.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

As I said on Facebook, the mouse was fine when he left here because I would have culled him otherwise, and I think you should do that now and I will give you the replacement as I promised.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Steve sounds so much like my rat who had a stroke. (surely this is no one's fault)
I am sorry for your impending loss though, how unfortunate.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Reputable breeder or not (sorry Cait! Lol) he should have quarantined properly before being introduced into your population... For the good of him and the good of the others.

He may well have caught something from your mice! Or it may well not be anything contagious at all and just misfortune.

He would have been culled in my stud as soon as his head started tilting honestly.


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

Poor Steve. It's worth giving him a little chance, you've tried this hard so far and he has a lot of spirit :lol:

-for breeding yes him and the greasy ones are probably useless, but there's nothing wrong with having some pets/sell them off as pets to kids lol .

I know that kage is limited on space and probably finds it hard to quarantine mice, but it should be something that more care is taking over in the future (not that this has caused his illness or anything -it was probably down to stress or he was born flawed, it happens.)

Once I eventually get some show mice (next year when I start going to shows? lol) to add to my show-line and start up a real breeding programme for showing I plan to keep my show and pet completely separate and faze out breeding many pet-lines, but I'll still be keeping retired and the odd really cute pet in need of love as well pets. :lol:


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

morning-star said:


> -for breeding yes him and the greasy ones are probably useless, but there's nothing wrong with having some pets/sell them off as pets to kids lol .


I can't agree with selling animals that are less than 100% especially not as pets.I do agree that the mouse was more than likely born flawed.


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

SarahC said:


> morning-star said:
> 
> 
> > -for breeding yes him and the greasy ones are probably useless, but there's nothing wrong with having some pets/sell them off as pets to kids lol .
> ...


you'd sell them/or give them away on the understanding that they where previously sick, and may die early/or get ill again. I only cull adults when I really have too, but I'm kinda soft.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

You sell sick animals as pets? Oh dear.


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

:roll: NO.

I don't really have any sick mice currently and the odd couple I do are some of my older fave retired/pets. (and by sick one has a tumour and will be PTS once she can't run around any more and one had a R.I, which was treated for but has lung scaring.)

I was saying you could sell them once they have recovered from their illness and where ok and you informed the buyer they where previously ill. please read first.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> you'd sell them/or give them away on the understanding that they where previously sick, and may die early/or get ill again.


There's no way I could that :? But then, a sick mouse gets culled in my stud.


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

some mice just to get too sick to bother taking care for (purely because of cost, the suffering it may cause and risk to the rest of the hordes) which, culling is then probably good but one's with just minor R.I's or fur loss it's kinda unnecessary.

But Kage has been willing to take the time for this mouse, who far as I can tell is willing to try and fight for his tiny life so it's one of those cases that it's worth trying to save the little fella.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Which I am sure is lovely for Kage, but not quite so great for the mouse I'd imagine.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

When my first rat had a stroke I was away...when I got home he was too far gone but I still tried. He passed in my arms...so when another rat showed neurological signs (months later), I took her to be put down. I just didn't want her to suffer while I tried stuff. It's a personal decision, Kage, but neurological cases rarely end well at all.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Whoa.

Occcasionally I give runts away to friends on the understanding that they are runts and likely to live shorter. My tiniest are culled and my sickies too. A mouse that was sick never goes for sale, but if they've gotten better often I retire them to the pet box. I do keep mice purely as pets, because if I'm going to allow individuals who aren't 100% the best size etc to live then I have to take responsibility for their long term care.

I do breed for the pet market. I breed fancy type mice with the best size and type out of my whole mousery, because I feel they make fantastic pets. I've sold to friends, family, pet shops and complete strangers, and I find it very rewarding. It would be cruel to any child to sell them a mouse that wasn't 100% though.

I promised our vet (and Ben, who has a major soft spot for him.) I'd give Steve a week on the meds and take him back in to be assessed and if necessary pts. Our vet is good with rodents, takes the time to do the research and its her opinion that he has a 50/50 chance of recovering. Also, since Steve had some does (who are not sick either way.) I want to know if its a genetic problem that he might pass on, or purely an infection that the meds will cure.

He is walking, eating and drinking on his own and in no obvious pain, so I don't think a few more days should harm him. If he goes downhill in anyway though, then that's that. He's perky, stuffing himself stupid and teasing the cats at the moment.

And yes, I was an idiot for breaking quarantine. Its sort of half broken actually... The two bucks I acquired live in my bedroom and not the mousery at the moment, but then I chose my best and healthiest does to put in with them. It was because I knew where they'd come from and I was so excited... I shouldn't have though. I don't normally DX.

And for the record, I DO cull my sick mice DX. I know its sounding a bit dubious at the moment. Anyone who crops up a tumour will normally go as soon as its noticeable. I do like to give cuts, infections and skin problems a chance to clear up, but if there's no improvement then its curtains. I culled five very much loved pet mice last week for exactly these reasons.

I'm cutting back my numbers at the moment, via sales and the snake. I'm hoping that it will lessen the chance of another infestation, which was the cause of, as far as I can tell, all of our recent health problems.


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

When I meant previously sick I mean something that's had an R.I/skin problem or something that you've treated cleared up and the mouse has fully recovered and is back to being like a normal mouse, I don't mean to come across like I sell sick mice or a mouse that's been treated but not recovered fully etc. 
-and I really wouldn't keep alive let alone or sell anything that I know/think might have anything contagious and harmful to other mice.


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## Kage Davies (Dec 21, 2008)

Steve curled up this afternoon and went to sleep, and didn't wake up again. All in all perhaps the best way for a mouse to go. I don't feel bad; we took on board everything that was said and did what we thought was best. Either way, he's not suffering anymore.

Please don't feel like we ignored the advice that was given, either. Even if we didn't put Steve down straight away, we did assess the rest of the mousery. I've culled everything failing to recover well after our louse outbreak, and all of my snake sized surplus. I'm cutting back now everything that isn't my rumpwhites, my tris and my vari blue/lilac longhaireds.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I am sorry for your loss. It does sound like you have some fresh perspective and a new, stronger direction.


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