# Are your lines true-breeding?



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Do your mice produce only their own kind (ie dove X dove = only dove, for many generations)? That is to say, are they true-breeding?

With some homozygous recessive varieties such as ce/c or himalayan and homozygous lethal varieties such as red and rumpwhite, true-breeding is impossible, of course. Are your homozygous lethal varieties close to being true-breeding, then?

I'm just curious due to SarahC's comments in another thread:



SarahC said:


> half the time in the uk you don't know either,things aren't the same as when Tonys book was written,many mice are of unknown/mongrel heritage.


This is the case with petstore mice in the US and almost all hobby breeders in the US and some show breeders in the US. I have three main lines of mice, and only 1 is fully true-breeding.

What about you?


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## MiceGalaxyDK (May 26, 2009)

i mostly breeds siamese x siamese, sometimes will himalaya be brought into the breeding(that have not been used, yet), and sometimes pew x siamese to get some himalaya, it depends of what I have and what I will breed.

With agouti it's agouti x agouti 

sometimes I blend some colors.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Because I am pretty much creating my own lines from scratch, my mice are not going to be true breeding for a long time! hehe

Willow xx


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

I breed rumpwhites so as you say no they are not true breeding, I am working on making different colour lines self breeding though. I have currenlty got most of my champagne lines seperate but I'm having major issues getting the chocolate (not to mention ce and broken randomly) out of my blue rumpwhites!


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

My creams produce cream, stone and occasionally PEW, nothing else. My brindles are breeding more consistently colour-wise the longer I have them (the breeder I got them from did not breed for colour and so they carried all sorts). As for the rumpwhites, they breed pretty consistently considering!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

My doves aren't (yet) because I made them from argentes carrying champagne and silvers. They haven't thrown any champagne this generation, so hopefully I'm a step closer to getting rid of it! I get silvers all the time though :roll:

I will carry on working on it and hopefully one day they will be true breeding. I don't like funny colours turning up in litters: when I breed a dove to a dove, I want a whole litter of doves so that I can have the luxury of choice, rather than having to keep the only two doves in a heap of chams and silvers! :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

My doves produce only PEW and doves. I originally was breeding them for something else, then when I realized that they ONLY produce dove or PEW, they'll be useful for other outcrosses when/if I need the, so I'm keeping them that way. They're not bad mice, either.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Well, champagne hasn't reared its head for a couple of generations now, instead I have randomly started having PEWs appear! It's a bit strange; I inbreed quite heavily and it's taken this long to show?! LOL! I really hope I'll have true breeding doves one day, just got to keep plugging away...

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Do you remember me asking if you had PEW in your doves??? hehehehe

Can I have them??  I wuv you!

W xx


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

If I have any more I'll save them for you 

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I have mice (imported from England) where the doves give PEWs from time to time. The "c" and "p" are linked in these mice (normally doves mated to each other don't created PEW). I wonder if our mice are distant cousins!


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Could the reason they were throwing silvers be because they carried albino Sarah?

W xx


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

No, carrying albino doesn't make that much difference to top colour and the does and bucks that have produced PEW have been proper doves. I started the dove line by crossing silvers with argentes because no-one bred dove, so that's where the wretched silver gene came from! :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Carrying Albino can lighten though, you can see the effect of it most dramatically on BE Creams.

And all the silvers produced by me definately have albino in them, because they either came from one albino parent, or one of the parents carried it.

If your silvers weren't produced by a carried albino gene, there must be other factors at work, and those factors i haven't looked into yet LOL
Dove based silvers confuddle me! lol

W xx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah, a mouse who is a/a C/c p/p can appear very, very light.

Dove-based silvers are the only kind that I have ever bred. The breeder I got them from calls them "fake silvers," but I think "pseudosilver" sounds more eloquent. :lol:


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I think most of the show silvers over here are dove based rather than blue based.

Blues, though gorgeous (and have the longest tails ever, or at least the 8 i have owned have) are small compared to paler selfs.

I think it doesn't matter what the genetics are really, aslong the mouse 'Looks' like the standard.

W xx


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

My silvers are pale doves, I'm pretty sure there's no blue gene in there because I've never had blues turn up from a black outcross, but I have had black, dove and silver in a few litters. I should have said "that's where the wretched pale modifiers come from", not "gene". The albino gene doesn't make any difference to the top colour of my doves, which is why I was surprised to see it turn up. I don't breed with the pseudosilvers (I like that Jack) at all now because I have enough doves.

The reason the albino gene shows on creams (c/ce) is because they are a heterozygous variety made from albino (c/c) x stone (ce/ce), same as himalayan (c/ch) is heterozygous from albino (c/c) x siamese (ch/ch). They don't carry it, they are actually showing it 

The factors that are making my doves turn out like silvers are just modifiers for a pale coat. Modifiers can make dove look like silver, soft bluey grey, dark stormy grey, or even champagney. In mice the modifiers seem very strong indeed, and I think it is the modifiers that make champagne look warm in hue that's made any chocolate carrying doves in my lines look all murky, rather than just the chocolate gene alone. In PEW the modifiers don't need to be as strong because they are white anyway, and in the line of doves that I have PEW doesn't seem to have any modifiers affecting the colour of the doves. In lines where albino does make a difference to the top colour, that albino gene is obviously bringing with it a lot of modifiers for a paler coat. It's not necessarily the gene itself. Does that make sense?

I read somewhere that knowing the mendalian genetics makes mouse breeding a science, but correctly using modifiers turns it into an artform 

ETA: 


> I think it doesn't matter what the genetics are really, aslong the mouse 'Looks' like the standard.


I agree with that; a lot of very, very successful breeders will be the first to admit they know nothing of genetics, but they're obviously doing something right and have a wealth of experience with regards to blending colours and varieties.

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I know genetics, I love studying it... but I do hope the 'artform' of modifiers is something that will come to me with common sense as I will be relying alot on modifiers for my lilacs to be the right shade i think! hehe

W xx

P.S On a happy note, one of my first gen lilacs (black) is FINALLY showing a pregnancy, a rather large belly that popped up quite literally over night! hehe I need prayers, happy thoughts, candles and fairy dust that there is at least one lilac in this litter!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

LOL I'm sure your lilacs will turn out fine, it is mostly common sense 

I shall light lilac candles all over my house and keep my fingers tightly crossed for you!

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I want pictures of these lilacs, no matter what they look like!


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