# Adie gave birth :)



## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Adie, my poorly colored black tan, gave birth probably between 4 and 6 this morning. It appears that one was still born and 9 have full bellies. Tangie is helping out and hopefully will start lactating. (Anyone know how long nurses take to do that?) There is a possibility that Tangie is in her first few days of pregnancy, so I plan to pull her as soon as the bubs show colors if she starts to get a belly. I've decided not to cull until colors start to show in hopes of getting some good improvements in the belly color. This is why I'm risking Tangie being in there. They both are looking after the bubs very well this afternoon. Wish me luck.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Congratulations!


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Quick question
For those that weigh their babies the first day, what were the smallest babies you have had? These look small and were just over half a gram each. My other does had much bigger babies last time, but she had fewer of them.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I don't weigh mine, but I consider a baby to be a really good size when they look to be one inch long, not including the tail. Three quarters of an inch is a bit disappointing, but if the skin color is good, it's acceptable. Dark red is not a good color for new borns. They should look pink and a bit waxy. The skull should not show the vessels distinctly; the paws should show good development with toes distinct. If the tail is furled, that's bad. The tail may not be totally straight out, but not totally curled. The orbit of the eye should not be completely visible.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I mistyped the weight. They were 1.66 grams. Big difference. Some show the skull sutures, but I don't see vessels in the ones I can look at. I'd say they are a pink red, but straight tails, squirming, squeeking, and otherwise looking good. Here are some pics:



















How long until I can tell who is tan?

How can I tell if Tangie is producing milk as the nanny? I never was sure with my last nanny attempt.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Cute Cute Cute! I answered your tan question on another site.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I saw it. Thanks.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

The pink eyed have me stumped as to what they may be. I'm not sure if the fawn is black based or not. A blue tan would be nice.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I wasn't aware that nurses did actually start lactating. If that turns out, let us know, for sure! Also, what's the buck?


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

PE could be lilac/dove.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Hmmm, a dove tan... That could be interesting if the color has improved.

The buck is a satin angora fawn from the same store yours is from. I decided to go back and get myself a buck. That also brings up the possibility that I could end up with angora tans if Adie is a carrier. I'd love to find some satins.

All the possibilities... I can't wait. Yes, the suspension is driving me crazy.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

My dove tan is one of my favorites. While the tan isn't as vibrant as it would be on a black-eyed mouse, it's really not bad. I'll try to get photos of Lotus as a comparison for you, since she's pregnant right now, which stretches out that belly and makes it easier to see.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Day 3 pictures:


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Okay. I'm thinking soem of the pe do have a hint of tint to them. What pe colors would barely be showing at about 5 days of age? Mom is black tan, dad fawn.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

My chams didn't look any different from the whites until they furred up, and I doubt any of the paler pe colors would show better. I'd say dove is the most likely pe color to show through before they get that first dusting of fur. Unless you know what's under the fawn, it's hard to guess. I'm fairly certain Yam is cham under the fawn, but you'll know more about yours once these lovely babies color up.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I know I should cull the litter down, but I'm so excited to see what colors show up. I gave her a mealworm earlier today and some eggs tonight, but both girls are ignoring the eggs in favor of the sauce/wheel I also just put in the tank.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I want to support her milk production, but the only store carrying kmr wants a lot for it, especially since I will probably only need it for a week or so. Can I use regular non-fat milk mixed with oats? Anything else that will be a short term boost until I start culling?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I haven't had any trouble with milk-soaked bread, though I use raw milk so it might be slightly different. I think I remember moustress uses it, too. In addition to mealworms, my mice sometimes get crickets, since we keep them around for the herps. Basically anything with fat and protein will help.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I managed to get a few pictures before camera/computer problems settled in. The five light ones look like they will be dove, with one possibly being pied.

Black tail, white front paws

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White tail


















White tail tip (like mom)









I'm leaning towards one female, possibly two males.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Doe, buck, ? I'm not usually very good until they start to fur up and nipples come in on the does.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

That is what I think. I'm in need of culling, so I want to figure out gender real soon. She still has all nine babies with her and they don't look as plump as when I limit litter size.

She wouldn't eat the oat earlier today, so I bought some soymilk, mixed up a batch, and put two mealworms on top. I know they LOVE mealworms. IT worked. They scarfed down the mealies and tasted the oats while picking out tiny bits of mealworm that dropped down. Both girls are chowing down on the oats. I hope this helps he feed them.

At what point do the bubs become malnourished from there being too many of them and aren't able to develope fully? I don't want any long term negative health effects from leaving the litter big at this point.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I've had a very large and healthy doe raise a litter of ten with no trouble. While they were a lot smaller than the babies of smaller litters at first, they quickly caught up. By three months of age, you couldn't tell a difference between the pups from that litter and those from a litter of three. Maybe with show-types, who're much larger at full growth, it makes a bigger difference. That said, I've had a doe a little younger in her breeding age, who was having trouble with a litter of seven. Fostering out so that she had three made her a lot more comfortable.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Updated pictures from tonight. For some reason they are foggy. However, I did manage to get the one pied bub. In here the lighter ones look grey, but they appear to be brown with the flash.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

They look nice and chubby. Good work!


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Indeed! For a litter of that size, they're looking pretty good. It's so hard between the shiny beautiful coats and the dim/fuzzy. They do look kinda brownish. If she'll let you handle them, taking them out into the real light makes a huge difference for me, when trying to tell what color everybody is while they're all just barely furred.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I'm glad you gals like their size. I"ve been pleasantly surprised that they seem to be staying a bit chubby. She still has all nine and I haven't caught the nanny nursing them, although she stays with them often. Maybe the extra rest, soy oats, and mealworms have been helping. I'll try the natural light as soon as they aren't being snuggled with. BTW they were small when born, only 1.66 grams.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

The sun was setting, but I managed to get out there with my husband to get some pictures. It looks like the buck must be A/A because they all appear to be agouti based. What is the lighter color called? Let me know if I am wrong about the buck.

Will I be able to use any of these bubs in my tan line? I'm not sure how to proceed from here. I had hoped the buck was A/a and would give me some black tans. I also didn't know Adie was P/p. The surprises of starting with petshop mice.



















I haven't check the pe for gender. I hope the pied is female, because I think I want to keep her even if I can't use her for breeding.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Pink-eyed agouti is argente. Because agouti is dominant, it should be easy to breed back out, and A/at is really a quite beautiful color. I suspect that I'm going to have a similar problem with Lotus and Yam's pups, though I'm lucky that Yam's A/a (as evidenced by the one non-agouti pup from his first litter).


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Do you think breeding back the argente or agouti would be best? I'm trying to improve the tan belly, which is mostly grey right now. I do have a black tan male that I haven't used yet and another female. I'm not looking forward to waiting three months to get to work on this process. However, Mira will be birthing soon and I still want to work on my fawn line.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Argente is so pretty, and I love agouti tan.

It's a good ting I like argente, as my breeding to get the fawns produced a lot of them.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Yes, I see lots of argente in my future, but I like them too. I'm watching tangie try to lay with the bubs and they have grown so that most don't fit under her. It is cute to watch them work themselves into position to be up against her.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I've noticed it's kinda hard to see the tan bellies on the argentes, while it's a lot easier to see on the agoutis. For that reason, I'd suggest using the agouti, plus the black-eyed varieties usually have more vibrant tan, so it's just easier to work with. Since I'm drowning in pe mice, I'm actually kinda happy to see the agouti (hopefully) tans.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I think a lot of your RYs are actually undermarked brindles, Jade. Both you and L have some interesting agouti based babies where none should occur! Did you say you get them all at one pet shop?


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Yes, they came from the same shop. Three breeders have some. Why shouldn't agouti be occuring and why do you think the ry are actually undermarked brindle? ry "hides" agouti. I know Tom is a undermarked brindle, but he came from a different store and wasn't bred there. I don't see how a black tan mouse could provide the agouti gene. Although I've done a lot of research, I am still new to this. Please help me understand your thinking more. If I've made a mistake we need to figure it out.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

The bubs opened their eyes today. I've got the litter down to seven, but Adie and Tangie have managed to keep them in the nest. However, I'm having a blast watching some of the more adventerous ones start exploring the tank and Adie grabbing it and tossing it back into the nest. My guess is that Tangie and her will start to give up by the morning.


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