# Help IDing Litter



## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

So as many of you already know my first litter arrived one week ago today. They are doing great and growing fast but I am having some difficulty in predicting what they're going to grow into and just thought I would post for some input. My knowledge of genetics is still quite limited (though I am trying my best to learn as much as I can whenever I can) so please forgive any questions which may seem (or certainly are) stupid. :lol:

This pairing was of course somewhat experimental as it is my first and the doe's lineage is unknown. All I know is that she is Black Tan and her sister (picked form a pet shop feeder bin, I am quite sure from the same litter) is a Black Fox. The buck is a Pied Siamese (Satin carrier, if that matters) which I got from Runaway Mousery whose lineage is well known, so I can go back quite a few generations on for reference (back to his ancestors at ZCM) when I have some time to fully understand his heritage, not that I haven't looked into it.

"Mom"










"Dad"




























At first I thought that doe #3, the dark one pictured, was a Black Tan or Fox as this is what she appeared to be at day 5. Very dark on top, no pigment on the bottom. However come day 6 (yesterday) she began to show dark pigment on the bottom as well, so she must be Self. The two Bucks are both Pied, I am not sure if they're Tans or not. One has shading on the bottom edges of his markings, if that makes sense. They both have light bellies.

Doe #1 has no visible pigment, so I am thinking she must be Siamese or Himalayan. 
Doe #2 has a light pigmented Pied pattern coming in, so I am assuming she'll be like her sire.





































Buck #2



















Doe #1 (still no visible pigment)










Doe #2 (light Pied markings starting to show)



















All input is welcome!!


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## genevie (Mar 11, 2012)

I don't have much advice on their specific colours, but what I will say is that I worked out the possible outcomes of my litter before they were born, and that definitely made it easier to pinpoint colours very early on as I had an idea of what I was looking for. They're mostly furred now and I think I predicted every one right, so I'd definitely advise trying to figure it out in advance next time for easier ID-ing  I'd also recommend this page here to help distinguish between tan and self.


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

That is the thing, I did try, but came out with so many possibilities that it is still a guessing game! :lol: I guess we will have to wait and see. That link was pretty helpful! I was just wrong in my guess this time.


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## Runaway Mousery (Jul 5, 2012)

You should be able to tell your tans at this point - they will have a definite line of demarcation between their black and tan belly. I can help if you have pics of the undersides of those bucks =) The black doe is definitely a self black that I saw from one of your pics a few days ago. Your pink eyed babies have to be either himi or siamese. Considering your black does unknown origins - it is much more likely that she is C/c than C/ch, so my bet it still on himi. Your pieds - look like banded, so check your doe for a belly spot - if she has one it's very possibly banded which is dominate. If not, then there is the chance that it could be belted, which is recessive and looks alot like banded. I get alot of "banded" type markings in mine too, when it crops up out my selfs - I am started to suspect that it may be belted.


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

Thanks for the input!! I really appreciate it. Today I can see that the males do have some black pigment on their bellies so I am guessing they are both just Pied? Or Belted? They don't look like the bt I've seen but I don't think it is Banded, I checked the momma for any spots like you mentioned and found none. She just black on top and tan underneath, a regular (poor) Black Tan. I am bad at this!!  But you have to start somewhere I suppose, it's not giving up that counts. It is so interesting but so confusing how different genes interact.

I took more pictures tonight, but these were the most difficult to get so far, they're like little jumping beans. Buck #1 jumped straight off my palm and into my lap, it scared me! Also, they respond more to being pet now and are just irresistibly cute.

Buck #1




























Buck #2



















Doe #1 is looking like an off-white color, which I expected to see eventually, it matches the color of Doe #2's markings.




























Doe #3 is making me feel like quite the fool for thinking she was Tan. :lol:


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

The lighter doe looks like she might be Himalayan. Yes, and certainly not tan. :lol: If you can get some pictures of the marked mice, I might be able to help you figure out what they are. I get lots of the belted mice that only show a tummy spot as RM described, and they can be quite bothersome when you don't want them. :lol:


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

Yes I think so too.  I know I feel so foolish! But she DID have a straight line where the pigment stopped at day 4.  Then her belly darkened to match the top and she just keeps getting darker! Not unhappy with it at all, was just surprised. :lol: The doe doesn't have a belly spot, so I am thinking Pied? Ranger (the "dad") is Pied even though neither of his parents are, so maybe there is something I'm missing.



> Note that other genotypes can *look* banded and be shown in a Banded class.
> Some of these genotypes include:
> Belted: bt/bt.
> Sash: Wsh/* Chromosome 5. (however, Sash usually makes BEW visually)
> ...


Because s/s is more common (from what I know) here, I assume that's what this must be?
Here are some pictures showing the boys markings.


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

They look pied to me. Although I could be wrong, one looks a little belted-ish... but pieds can have white spotting in some totally random and interesting patterns. Piebald is recessive, so Rangers parents didn't need to be pied, they carried pied. Depending on how far you have his line tracked, you may be able to find some s/s mice in his pedigree. You also now know that Breazeu carries pied. They are adorable by the way!!


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## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

Some time ago, when I tried breeding piebald x BEW, I've found very interesting article about spotting:
http://www.genetics.org/content/23/6/523.full.pdf
The genetic types are ilustrated on page 4


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

That's an interesting page, I like the figures on page five, as well. Thanks for sharing Lyra!


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

Exactly what I was thinking, TW. Then I read somewhere that Pied is dominant and I got so confused! :lol: Or maybe I just misunderstood what I read or something. I looked back in Ranger's pedigree (just after posting the last set of photos) to see what I can find and just as you suggested I found what I was looking for! His "great grand sire" was a Broken Siamese as well. So from what I can see in this line/what I have read, I am assuming that I must be s/s that is responsible for these markings. I am finally gaining a better understanding of genetics and things are finally coming together for me, it is so interesting that I get caught up reading and don't realize how much time's passed since I started. 

That link is very interesting! Thanks Lyra!


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## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm glad I could help  It's true - genetic's absolutely fascinating. I'm much better in rat's, atm (and I find it easier ), but I'm reading much about mice now, too 
I've read a lot about pied, both about being dominant and recessive. I actually got 100% sure that it's recessive only after I bred pied x self and got 100% self litter, with little white on the tails of few pups


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

Yup, no doubt pied is recessive. There is dominant spotting as well, W/ *, is there any chance you were reading something about variegated/dominant spotting gene?

Genetics is great! It can be difficult to understand, but once you get the basics down, it seems so much easier. There's a lot that I still don't know, but I will continue to research.


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

It really is so fascinating, though also confusing at times! :lol: I agree that rat genetics seem much easier, I have read a lot on them in the past. (I keep rats as pets, always have.) I think that I must have misunderstood or read something about another gene and got confused. I don't know. I have it figured out now though, guess that's what matters! Haha. There is so much to learn!! I envy those who've learned pretty well everything already as I'm just starting out.


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## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

It took some time, but I've found that article about dominant spotting I've read long ago:
http://www.informatics.jax.org/wksilver ... 10-1.shtml


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

Ah, more reading, thanks!  Haha no really, thanks. It looks very interesting!


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## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

Look at the bright side - you're going to be an expert of spotting genetics, RockyMountainMice


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

Apparently so!! Funny thing is I was never drawn to spotted/marked mice much, but ended up with one (now four) and they have really grown on me.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm the same way! I originally preferred self mice. But pied makes it so darn easy to ID them as youngsters.  I accidentally might have bred it out of my line but hopefully will see pied again.


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

I too prefer Self and Tan in general, I find Siamese and Himalayan lovely as well. Well, I am also a big fan of Tricolor, Splashed and Brindle. 
But the Pied certainly aren't without their charm and I have really started to like them.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Boy do I hear you. I'm [ ] this close to getting splashed in my line. I'm going to be the WORST tenant ever soon, if it actually happens.


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

Haha!! I have looked everywhere here for Splashed but have only come across one old pet shop doe who was far from breedable. Sigh!


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Apparently I have my choice of three! However, their line does contain a strange ear condition that's genetic so I'm trying to figure out if there's a responsible way to do this. :/ It hasn't popped up in a few generations but still...it basically becomes a debate between the devil you know and the devil you don't, as Toronto feeder mice are my other option for outcrossing.


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

Damn genetic conditions.  Not good!

I wanted to "cap off" this thread by posting what each kit turned out to be.

Bucks #1 and #2 are both Black Piebald (s/s)

Doe #1 is Himalayan Fox

Doe #2 is Pied Himalayan

Doe #3 is Black Self


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

No updated photos?  Pied Himalyan sounds interesting!


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

Oh I posted some in another thread.  I am so confused about the Pied Himilayan though, I thought pied was not possible on Himalayan as they're all white to begin with. I am assuming they both must be Siamese.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=13266&p=120581#p120581


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Pied himmi is genetically possible, but how well the markings show will depend on who light or dark there body colour is.


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

Himalayans aren't always stark white like the standards say, it can be hard to breed them to be stark white as far as I'm aware. You can tell if they are siamese or himalayan by eye color, himi's have pink eyed and siam's have ruby eyes.


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

That is what I thought PPVallhunds! Hence my confusion. I was thinking they were Siamese initially, however they DO have pink eyes and are much lighter than other Siamese babies I have seen. Here are some recent photos of them.


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