# Reversed siamese



## Sharon_ (Jul 6, 2011)

Second generation =) 2 does in the litter.
Parents are colorpoint beige and reversed siamese.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Loverly!

What makes reverse siamese?


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

Over here we call them a stone with light nose and tail set.


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## maddeh (Jul 14, 2011)

They are beautiful!


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## GypsyTails (Jul 14, 2010)

Pretty, pretty! I have some Reverse Siamese bucks over here who would LOVE to meet your girls! :mrgreen:


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Are they standardised in your countries?


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## GypsyTails (Jul 14, 2010)

I don't think so. They are just Dark Beige/Coffee mice selected for their light points. Mine started as a fluke when Chocolate and Ivory/Beige met and now I can't get rid of it!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I think AFRMA has them standardized.


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## GypsyTails (Jul 14, 2010)

D'oh! Yes, your'e right, Stina! I was mistaken. They are AOCP. Dunno why my brain blerped. Sorry!


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

They're really nice looking! So they're c/ce mice selected for light points? Could they ever be any other color?


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## SiamMeece (Sep 21, 2010)

Autumn2005 said:


> They're really nice looking! So they're c/ce mice selected for light points? Could they ever be any other color?


The light points are visible on c/ce (bone) but better would be ce/ce (beige) and when b/b (chocolate) it will result in a darker beige (coffee) which gives the best contrast. I quit breeding them after my opinion about "reverse siamese" changed from "variety" to "poor" beige. A "poor" dove can also resemble "reverse siamese". With poor I only mean opposed to show quality, nothing judgemental


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## Sharon_ (Jul 6, 2011)

No they are not standardised here. In fact, there are not many of them here and nobody really breeds them.
But I love them and I think I'm the only one atm with some does and litters with these color in Belgium. Most people even dont know them


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Lighter colour at the tail root, nose and feet are very serious faults in self breeding, I do suppose they could be selected for to accentuate the fault. But they just dont look classy.There are many hundreds of other such faults that a breeder could do the same with, for instance with Tans, the ideal mouse is one which looks self when viewed down on from above , but pure red when from below. Faults are tan feet, behind ears and up the jowls, and tan hairs on the flanks. I have often felt that a tan mouse with red circles around its ears , and red hairs running down the flanks would be most attractive, as this is their natural tendency. However this is too easy. Nothing looks as attractive as a jet black mouse with a striking red belly only seen when held up, as do the other self colours
.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

> However this is too easy.


While being somewhat paler at the points is a common fault, I would argue that breeding it to the extreme showed here is likely quite difficult. Your idealized tan mouse with his red circles 'round the ears and all would also be quite difficult to breed to excellence. That one can approximate a smidgen of the effect without trying does not indicate the ease with which the full effect can be reached. The faults in a fox are the great thing about tans, and many varieties bank on the faults of others. That mostly just makes them terrible for outcrossing.


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

No, it's not difficult - that's the point. In paler selfs and stone, having a light nose and tail root is easy to do, which is just one reason why it is so hard to make a good pale self. Selecting for these pale points isn't the same as making a siamese - this is just making a mistake worse, rather than improve on genetics.


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

Used to get these pop up when i was a feeder breeder, before i got into fancy mice, quite sweet really


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Just b/c its a fault in one thing, doesn't necessarily make it a fault to everyone. After all, written standards are all based on someone's opinion. And there is at least one club that has reverse siamese standardized.


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## GypsyTails (Jul 14, 2010)

From what I understand, it's not JUST a faulty Beige/Coffee that makes a Reverse Siamese the way it should be. Was it Karen who said it wasn't 100% understood when it came to modifiers, et cetera? I can't remember. There can be a HUGE difference in a "bad" Beige/Coffee versus a "great" Reverse Siamese. It has actually grown on me a bit, even though it's just been a by-product of my PEW/Ivories. If I can ever can get recessive spotting to disappear, I may tinker with it more.


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## SiamMeece (Sep 21, 2010)

I think it lies in the eye of the beholder. I can understand people, who breed beige/coffee selves to standard, see the light points as a fault. On the other hand, beige/coffee mice (or even doves) with light points can look very attractive with those points, which makes it hard to see it as a fault


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## GypsyTails (Jul 14, 2010)

I've not seen it on Dove yet. I have been breeding Dove to be lighter overall from what I started with, so maybe I wouldn't like it so much if reverse points popped up.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Laigaie said:


> > However this is too easy.
> 
> 
> While being somewhat paler at the points is a common fault, I would argue that breeding it to the extreme showed here is likely quite difficult. Your idealized tan mouse with his red circles 'round the ears and all would also be quite difficult to breed to excellence. That one can approximate a smidgen of the effect without trying does not indicate the ease with which the full effect can be reached. The faults in a fox are the great thing about tans, and many varieties bank on the faults of others. That mostly just makes them terrible for outcrossing.


Of course they would be difficult to breed to excellence- thats the point.I disagree with you, if an animal has a natural trait towards a feature, then I can assure you that it is incredibly easier to go with nature. I have a strain of Champage tans which are exactly that, and are required by myself in support of another breed. I can assure you it is far more difficult to breed a Tan mouse to the standard than it is to breed one with red ear circles and red feet. I would also respectfully say that the photo graphs shown here of light nosed Mice are as yet a million miles away from what could be achieved. Just my Opinion.


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## Sorka (Nov 30, 2011)

Reverse is standardized in poland and czech too. But nodody have em in cze


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