# introduction and question about hermaphrodite mousy



## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

Hi, I am new here and proud owner of two very sweet fancy mice I got one shortly before and one after Christmas.
The store sold them both as females. The older one, Popelku, is pretty much for sure a girl.
The younger one, Vanilla, however now about reaching full growth seems to be all of a sudden very aggressive to the older one.
They have each their own cage but we used to let them play supervised together, originally with the idea to eventually connect the cages for social lifestyle. Since a couple of days Vanilla is approaching Popelku and biting her, Popelku does not fight back although she is older and bigger and although when they first met she would bite Vanilla, but then they would cuddle til recently.
In between Popelku had an assumed ear infection and was sick, so I thought at first Vanilla is biting her as she showed signs of being in poor condition, but she is fine now and still Vanilla sneaks up on her and then surprisingly bites her.
Also, Vanilla seems more restless than before. Today I saw her climbing in her cage and it looks to me "she" has a tiny penis  , but no balls. Usually male mice have really big balls from what I saw in stores, even when young, but I am now wondering if it could be she is both gender and hermaphrodite and if she is biting Popelku because she wants to mate with her.
I want to know if that is common with mice and also if it is possible that she/he is fertile and so they cannot play together at all, as I can't accommodate mouse babies. Also Popelku is not into the idea, anyways, at least not right now, but who knows...
Also someone mentioned something about smell of the different gender.
Vanilla smells very differently from Popelku, when we got her I thought it is from stress and change of environment, now I am wondering if it from different hormones?
Who has experience and can tell me more about this? :?


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

Welcome to the forum! Pictures might help us, help you identify your mouse's gender.


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

Hello and welcome to the forum, as mentioned pictures would help in correctly informing you of gender.


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

ha, funny... I will try my best to get that shot that would be most demonstrative... meanwhile tell me: is a hermaphrodite mouse a common thing?


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

The "tiny penis" may just be the bump some females have as they mature.
Also they are probably fighting now because you have them separated. They need to be together 24/7 if they're going to be together at all, including supervised play times. Mice are social creatures and being apart from each other for multiple hours a day and not sleeping together is very detrimental to their relationship.
However at this point you need to get their gender confirmed before housing them together.


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

Hi, thank you. Well, I couldn't put them together as originally the older one would be very territorial over her space, although she would be fine outside and they were actually very affectionate with each other, especially if I could cuddle each at the same time.
We decided to go through all the routine of getting them unsed to each other we found out about: rotating cages and putting organic vanilla essence on them which seems to work well and makes them very peaceful.
But the older had a couple of sick days and we did not let them play together as we didn't know what it is.
Now she is fine, but the younger one sneaks up and under her (she did same before, and we thought since she was till small she was looking for milk), now she is biting the older one.
The older one does not fight back at all, although she is still larger and used to fight her off initially.
They smell completely different.
Does that mean anything in terms of gender?


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## blackbirdmice (Oct 27, 2012)

If anything, I would assume if they are attacking each other than they are probably the same gender. I have never had mixed genders fight in neutral territory, though I have had a lot of female scuffles. To merge the mice together clean out the cage completely, wash the interior and put the mice in at the same time. This always helps me with fighting mice, maybe it will help you.


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

OK, I can try that, just they are not fighting per se. It is the younger one acting like she comes to cuddle and then with great gusto biting almost with a grin into the older one, who is all surprised and squeaks. For some reason she falls for the same trick over and over.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Does she bite and actually draw blood?


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

not as far as I know, but I know she is trying to bite, so the moment she gets that cheeky look on her face I am on guard and separate them. I don't want to see what happens if they really get at it, they are so tiny that if they are really involved in a fight I am not sure if I can split them without possibly injuring them. Also since the older totally forgot how to fight back I don't want to get her traumatized, and am still trying every day to get them to go down that friendship path, but perhaps I am way too Disney here and it is not supposed to be.
I just thought only one of its kind can only cause a neurotic mindset, unless my mice have a horizon of a Buddha and I don't expect that. I would have assumed they are happier with other mice. Maybe not... after all...


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

The general rule is that no blood, no foul. If there is no blood then leave them together. Some females can take up to 2 weeks to sort out the pecking order and honestly, you sometimes just have to leave them to it. Separating and then re-introducing is not going to do any good because every time you do, they will need to sort out the pecking order all over again.

In regards to your question about them smelling different, no. It doesn't say anything about gender. I have a group of girls who smell more.. pugnent than another group of girls. 
As people have suggested before, get a bum shot and we will be able to help you determine gender.


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

OK, got these images, but help me out: how to I attach or upload them to here?


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

OK, got these images, but help me out: how to I attach or upload them to here?


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

OK, figured the upload out, scroll down ... anyways...so tell me: is that still a girl with that butt or is that getting very near a boy with no balls?
Back to original question: she is biting really mean into the older, bigger one who has lived here longer, after that one was sick for a couple of days.
They started out older one was nice but only outside her cage. We rotated the cages, each one has her own, and they were fine til the older one got sick and we left each in her original cage and did not let them play for these three days.
Meanwhile this little bugger here decided to get real mean.
Biting harder then ever and the older one doe snot even thing of defending herself. NONO!!!


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

is this a boy or a girl?


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## DaisyTailsMousery (Nov 8, 2012)

she has nipples... I'm thinking female


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Definite female in my opinion for 3 reasons.
1. The space between the anus and the genetalia thingy is very close
2. You can see the vaginal orifice (the little hole above the tabby thing)
3. You can see nipples.


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

so what looks to me like a mini penis is ....? 
She was sold to me as a female, but she smells real strong and is getting a real mean little thing, despite her ravishing beauty... sneaking up on the other one, sniffing her butt and belly and then biting her in the hind . Should rename her Lucrezia de Borgia....


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Cinderboy said:


> so what looks to me like a mini penis is ....?
> She was sold to me as a female, but she smells real strong and is getting a real mean little thing, despite her ravishing beauty... sneaking up on the other one, sniffing her butt and belly and then biting her in the hind . Should rename her Lucrezia de Borgia....


The mini penis looking thing? You mean the tab of skin thing Assuming we are talking about the same thing, its what is called the urethral orifice.
Some female mice can suddenly become sort of "aggressive" towards other mice but when ever that happened between my mice, it was a dominance issue (either the dominant female putting others in their place or another trying to move up the ranks). Again, no blood, no foul. Yes, sometimes it is hard to watch them while they "argue" and squeak but you just have to let them do it.

As for the smell, it could be food related but even then, in saying that, all mice smell different. I have females who smell way worse than others - it's pretty normal.


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

I wish the other one would remember to bite back or something. Oh well. I won't leave them do that unsupervised as is. :shock: 
Would it be a better case if I swap this little monster for another one or is it ALWAYS like that?


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

It's not always like that but there is no way to tell if it will be like that with the next one or not but even then, if you did get a new one she would have to being quarintined and you would have to start the introduction process again and there will likely be more squabbles.

Personally, I don't agree with the idea that if something doesn't work out that the animal can just be taken back to the store (unless of course your living arrangements change or something that means you can no longer take care of the animal).
Without sounding mean, it seems like you would rather give up that give it a try.


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

No you don't sound mean at all. But you misunderstand. I would not bring her "back to the store" but swap her with someone for another one. Also I certainly gave it more than a try and if you pay attention to what I explained in some detail, it is certainly more effort involved than simply letting them fight it out. At this point I won't repeat the many steps we are undertaking since weeks slowly slowly here. But I have several animals that all nee dot get on with each other and do, this is a brand new development and I am not sure what brought it on, I have both since a while now. Also we are talking about a mouse, not an orphan in a foster home. By all respect for the little critters, the needs of everyone need be addressed and not brought out of balance because of one that for whatever reason does not fit in. The idea to add a second one was to have mouse company for the first one. Not to have one that is the only creature here than can't be a second unsupervised as her only plan is to butcher the other one.
Please do give people a bit more credit that go through the time and effort to inquire such topics online in chat-groups like this one.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

It's not that much more effort involved than simply "let them fight it out".
You let them have a few play times together in neutral terriotory and then introduce them properly and let them live together in a freshly cleaned tank. Again, you need to let them fight it out. If there is no blood, then there is no foul. They need to sort out the pecking order and from what I have read, you aren't allowing them to do so.


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## Cinderboy (Feb 17, 2013)

You may be right, but I won't allow one suddenly super fierce creature go at one that for whatever reason refuses to stand up for herself. Certainly not. I can't tell if there is blood as the one being attacked has long hair.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Then you give her a good check over and "back-comb" her furr with your fingers and check for any scabs or blood - you will see it if it is there. 
Personally I don't believe a mouse ever really forgets how to fight back, they will fight back if they feel threatened.


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