# type-only (pics)



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Here are some mice I've been working on for type only, without regard to color at all (except for the blacks-ignore them, I forgot they were in there!). They're all outcrosses (F1) or the offspring of outcrosses (F2). Eventually, they're all going to become PEWs, but for now they're a mixture of standard and non-standard (and some downright _ugly_!) colors. A very wise mouse breeder in the Netherlands once said "you have to build the house before you can paint it," and that's what I'm trying to do with these mice-build them (in terms of type) before I paint them (breed for color). They're all between 4 and 8 weeks old.


































































All of these mice have a PEW parent. One of the few "rules" I've made myself in breeding for type-only is that in every pairing at least one parent must be PEW. That way, I know that every mouse carries PEW. One of the males I am using (I have 3 for this line-in-progress) is himself the product of a chinchilla x PEW outcross and is Aw/a cch/c, so a few of the babies are variations of either Aw/* and/or cch/c. The white tail tips drive me insane but I have to remind myself that for this purpose, they're ok.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I like the look of the first mouse the best. 

The chocolate, is also appealing to me.
If you had to pick one out of the group that was the most appealing (to you personally), or the most show quality, which would you choose?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

She's not chocolate. She's a/a cch/c P/p (AKA ugly).

My favorite is probably one of the argentes. There are three of them.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

:lol: 
I've never hear of the 'ugly' colouration. Is that an un-standardized colour?
I'm sure I have quite a few mice that would do well in the 'ugly' category. :?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Haha! I guess it's unstandardized, but it's probably the most common color in the world!


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm a fan of the ugly colour  But in saying that, I've never set eyes on a mousie I didn't like - except hairless (they really freak me out  :lol: )


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

I think this is very wise  "you have to build the house before you can paint it,"
Nice mice you have there  good to see these photos


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

I think you've cracked the genecode for my UGLY line! I never knew what they were but now I have a clue


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

a/a cch/c (without carrying pink eyes) would look the same, too. There is A LOT of variation in this color, from almost black to very pale.



Mymouse said:


> I think this is very wise  "you have to build the house before you can paint it,"
> Nice mice you have there  good to see these photos


Thanks. I wish I could take credit for saying it, but alas I only repeat it all the time. 

I'm going to keep breeding these mice, repeatedly selecting only for type, and see where that leads. I also have my (separate) PEW/dove/silver line who are "untainted" by these efforts. Hehe..I expect it'll take at least another year or two to turn them all into PEWs but once it happens I might combine them, depending on how it turns out. Almost ALL of the PEWs in this part of the country are related, so if I can create/modify a new group of PEWs, that might prove useful.


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

Well keep up the excellent work, your efforts are definately paying off! Those ears are enormous! How long are they at about 4 weeks compared to 8?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

The only ones who are 4 weeks in these pictures are the ugly one (whose ears are weird anyway), two of the argentes, and the PEW.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

This is the mother of one of the litters:










I forget her exact age in that picture, but she is definitely an adult. As you can see, they do "grow into" their ears a bit as they age, unfortunately, and that makes their ears look smaller (although their bodies just get larger).


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

And the last pictured mouse has the most amazing tail set on, WOW!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks. I think part of it was the angle, but the BE ticked ones (the ones who look like chinchillas) do have the best tail sets, I think. Tails are an area which I find myself having trouble with a lot, especially in my PEWs. They're plenty long enough, but not as well set-on and not as thick as I'd like.

Japanese fowl breeders produce chickens with 20-foot long tails. You can see some here: http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview ... 1&rel_no=1 I know they're just feathers in this case (and not flesh and bone), but can you imagine that on a mouse?


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

So how is breeding for type different from breeding for color? I'm very new to this and it's interesting to me.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Type is how the mouse is put together. All animals (dogs, cats, mice, birds, etc.) which are bred to show are bred and judged against a standard set forth by a club.

Depending on which club you're showing under, the standards have different things to say. In the Eastern US, this would be the ECMA. In the Western US, it would probably be the AFRMA. In the UK it would be the NMC or the LSCRMC. There are others around the world that I'm not as familiar with.

This is basically what a mouse is supposed to look like: http://www.afrma.org/stdsmse.htm


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

shadowmouse said:


> So how is breeding for type different from breeding for color? I'm very new to this and it's interesting to me.


in human terms,super models would have good type,the rest of us would be pet quality.Breed us pet types together and we won't make super models.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Every Mouse has eyes, ears, tail, etc. Each mouse though, can have a different colour. We can produce mice in different colours by the application of known Genes which have an effect on colour, so for instance if we wanted a grey mouse, we would use a black mouse and pair it with a mouse that has the pink eyed dilution gene, this gene will reduce the colour of the back to a lovely dove grey, and its black eyes to pink. The gene has effectivly bleached the colour of the black to grey. 
All babies in the first round will still be black, however on pairing them together greys (doves will appear). This is its simplest form. This is COLOUR breeding.
However, we now have another type of gene coming into play (not strictly correct but this is a basic explanation) These genes are the modifiers attached to the main genes. They are the genes that decide what shade of grey our mouse is, and we select by breeding the correct level of shade that we want for the show bench, we do this by mating together the two mice nearest to the accepted colour that we have.
These modifing genes also decide on the size of the ears, eyes etc, and we breed together mice which have shall we say the best ears, and concentrate up those genes.
So, we now have our mice of the correct colour, and good other features. 
Thats show breeding !!!!!!!!!


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## SiamMeece (Sep 21, 2010)

What a tempting idea, breeding for type only and not having to bother about colour or marking.  Even "unpainted", well typed mice are very pleasing to the eye!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

SarahC said:


> shadowmouse said:
> 
> 
> > So how is breeding for type different from breeding for color? I'm very new to this and it's interesting to me.
> ...


This is really funny to think about. I am definitely no supermodel.  It makes me wonder what supermodels' parents look like. Hehe...



I'll be back. said:


> Every Mouse has eyes, ears, tail, etc. Each mouse though, can have a different colour. We can produce mice in different colours by the application of known Genes which have an effect on colour, so for instance if we wanted a grey mouse, we would use a black mouse and pair it with a mouse that has the pink eyed dilution gene, this gene will reduce the colour of the back to a lovely dove grey, and its black eyes to pink. The gene has effectivly bleached the colour of the black to grey.
> All babies in the first round will still be black, however on pairing them together greys (doves will appear). This is its simplest form. This is COLOUR breeding.
> However, we now have another type of gene coming into play (not strictly correct but this is a basic explanation) These genes are the modifiers attached to the main genes. They are the genes that decide what shade of grey our mouse is, and we select by breeding the correct level of shade that we want for the show bench, we do this by mating together the two mice nearest to the accepted colour that we have.
> These modifing genes also decide on the size of the ears, eyes etc, and we breed together mice which have shall we say the best ears, and concentrate up those genes.
> ...


This is a good summary. There's a little bit of overlap, too. My red mice, for example, _are_ selected for type, but I weigh color a little more heavily because it's important to me to keep the deep, rich red color. And reds are a variety with their own built-in type-challenges anyway. It's easier to breed for type on non-red varieties.



SiamMeece said:


> What a tempting idea, breeding for type only and not having to bother about colour or marking.  Even "unpainted", well typed mice are very pleasing to the eye!


I agree. That's why I decided to do this, and see what happens. So far I'm really pleased with the way it's going. I wonder how much is heterosis (which disappears in F2+ generations) and how much I can work with and keep around.


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

SarahC said:


> in human terms,super models would have good type,the rest of us would be pet quality.Breed us pet types together and we won't make super models.


I disagree Sarah, you are definitely showtype !









Roland


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I wish but thanks any way.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

What do you need to know about genetics to breeding for type? I think I would be more inclined to breed for type, than for color myself.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Very little, actually. As long as your eye is astute enough to pick one mouse over another based on a certain trait or traits, that's really all you need. It's about selecting the best mouse and breeding it to the other best mouse (or the next-best mouse), over and over and over and over... 

If you're doing a good job, each generation should have a small improvement. It takes a lot longer than many people realize, though.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

Very interesting. So basically you just need to study good examples so you know what right and wrong when you see it?


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## WNTMousery (Jun 2, 2010)

shadowmouse said:


> Very interesting. So basically you just need to study good examples so you know what right and wrong when you see it?


Yes, but you also need to study the standard for the club that you are showing under. The ideal body type should be described in the standards set forth by the club.

http://www.eastcoastmice.org/generaltype.htm


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Jenny is right.


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## shadowmouse (Sep 17, 2010)

I don't think my area has a club.


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## mouse333 (Aug 30, 2010)

aww i love the 2nd one


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