# Flying marten sable!



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

These are not the tamest of mice... :roll: :lol:


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

LOL SUPERmouse!!


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

Do you have pictures of your sables, not only your marten sables? This mouse shown here looks very pale. Sables should be at least as dark and as reddish brown as Ay/A, and Marten Sables should not be pale too.

*Chilloutarea Mousery* 
We introduced Tricolor & Merle to Europe and breed dark Recessive Red


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't have any sables :?:


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

SarahY said:


> I don't have any sables :?:


Too bad, would help to get good marten sables


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Sable won't help these marten sables :lol: These need black fox crossing in to darken the dorsal dark brown and lighten the belly pigment to snowy white. It's the contrast these need. Crossing sable in will weaken both colours


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Putting a sable to a marten would be just like putting a tan in to improve the colour of a fox? Pretty sure that's really not what you want to do!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Correct!


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## mousery_girl (Nov 13, 2011)

omg you're camera must be AMAZING to capture that! Mine can't even deal with a twitch


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

That's quite a moment you've caught there, Sarah :lol: 
Thanks for sharing xx


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## Kingnoel (Apr 23, 2011)

What kind of camera DO you use? That is quite a shot.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanks!

My camera is not a super duper expensive one, it's this one here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-Digit...NH5G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324584575&sr=8-1
It's all about how you take the picture, not the hardware you use. Image stabilisation is a must, as is a fast shutter sports setting and a flash


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

SarahY said:


> Sable won't help these marten sables :lol: These need black fox crossing in to darken the dorsal dark brown and lighten the belly pigment to snowy white. It's the contrast these need. Crossing sable in will weaken both colours


Hope is what drives you. Show results


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

What do you mean Roland? I didn't understand that remark.


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

MouseBreeder said:


> What do you mean Roland? I didn't understand that remark.


Sables of any kind need to show a high amount of dark pheomelanines. Pale sables are not worth breeding them. You can try to breed good dark marten sables without introducing dark sables into the lines, but you will not be able to show some good dark sables then.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Sables of any kind need to show a high amount of dark pheomelanines. Pale sables are not worth breeding them. You can try to breed good dark marten sables without introducing dark sables into the lines, but you will not be able to show some good dark sables then.


Yes, and underneath the chinchilla gene, my foxes are full of pheomelanins  It's pheomelanins that the chinchilla gene bleaches: the more pheomelanins, the whiter the chinchilla can bleach it, and my foxes have beautiful snow-white bellies  Therefore, if I want to create marten sables with dark tops and white bellies, they need black foxes putting in. Putting sable in will result in a nasty cream coloured belly, just as putting tan into fox results in a nasty, cream coloured belly. It's quite logical really


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey! My post disaapeared... though it doesnt matter, since I typed basically the same as you Sarah!! lol

Foxes in to improve top shading every three generations or so if needed will do the trick.


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

Hi ladies,

I have bred marten sables many years ago and my experiences are as follows:

Top colour of marten sables should be a rich dark sepia from nose to tail, shading off to a paler colour on lower jaws, sides and flanks. 
Breeding marten sables to a good sable line improves the soft shading off from dark rich sepia to the belly. Breeding marten sables to foxes or tans often results in a clearer demarcation line, which is wanted in foxes and tans, but NOT in sables and marten sables, where a soft shading off is wanted. 
Breeding sables to sables often results in less babies (of course), no improvement in type, and a loss of contrast.

Sarah, if you have some more sables available next year, and in addition have access to some really nice sables, give it a try.

Anyway, sables and especially marten sables are a really difficult task! Good luck.

Roland
*Chilloutarea Mousery* 
We introduced Tricolor & Merle to Europe and breed dark Recessive Red


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Thank you for sharing that info, Roland. Have you any pictures of your marten sables?


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

SarahY said:


> Thank you for sharing that info, Roland. Have you any pictures of your marten sables?


No, lost in a PC crash in 2003.

My advice for your breeding programm of marten sables would be to get a good balance of outcrossings to foxes (for whiter bellies and better type, or even to good tans for the same reason), and outcrosses to good sables (for richer colours, darker backs, and softer fading off).

If you want to be really successful with marten sables at shows (and I know you want)  I think you will need quite a good number of individuals from these colours to cross out, select, and breed back. This breeding programm would add the chance to show some nice sables from time to time too, which is not bad at all.

Roland
*Chilloutarea Mousery* 
We introduced Tricolor & Merle to Europe and breed dark Recessive Red


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Eight years is a long time ago! Terribly sorry to hear about your loss, Roland.


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## zoocrewmice (May 5, 2009)

Completely ignoring the comments on color, the picture itself is hilarious and very cute. I'm just imagining a slo-mo of the mouse in take off........ and then falling in its face. :lol:


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Laigaie said:


> Eight years is a long time ago! Terribly sorry to hear about your loss, Roland.


me to ,I would have loved to see the cute pics.


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

SarahC said:


> Laigaie said:
> 
> 
> > Eight years is a long time ago! Terribly sorry to hear about your loss, Roland.
> ...


I breed mice since 1983, but for many years I have bred for nice colours and for my curiosity about genetic possibilities only, not for type. The mice were sold to petshops and pinkies were fed to my hedgehogs, so the lost mouse pictures from these years are nothing to cry about.

Best regards, Roland
*Chilloutarea Mousery* 
We introduced Tricolor & Merle to Europe and breed dark Recessive Red


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I have photos from before the advent of digital cameras when I only had a few pet mice and I think it's nice to remember where you started. I think it's a shame there are no photos from 1983 onwards Roland, then we could have seen your first mice and their offspring.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Me too! Want to see pretty mousie pix!!  ...but, can't


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

moustress said:


> Me too! Want to see pretty mousie pix!!  ...but, can't


Mousestress, democracy means you can have an opinion about everything, but this does not mean you must tell it to everybody







:lol: .
I guess in 1983 you were not even born







.

Regards, Roland


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Kind of pointless having a forum if no-one shares their opinions though


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

This thread is getting so mean.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Agreed. This has gone totally off-topic so I'm going to lock it.


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