# English males get along?



## hlforumhl

At some of the US mouse shows and other rodent events, I have heard talk that English male mice generally get along better than American males. Is there any truth to this statement?


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## morning-star

I doubt if there's any difference.


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## Viry

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a slight difference; nevertheless, that doesn't mean I'd jump at the idea of putting lots of males together and think they're all going to be one big happy family. Does that make sense?


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## SarahY

It's rubbish, all rubbish! Putting any of my males together after they are 6 weeks old results in a bloodbath. Even if it's just for travelling half an hour down the road!

Where do people get these ridiculous ideas?! Why would a mouse in England be of kinder temperament towards his mouse brothers than a mouse in America? :roll: They're _mice_,they don't know that the English are supposed to be reserved and polite :lol:


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## Viry

It's not ridiculous; it's environmental differences and all that stuff.

*Edit:* I'm not saying it's necessarily true but it's not necessarily NOT true.


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## SarahY

Yeah, I think it is ridiculous :lol:

I would think what happened is this: someone over the pond had a couple of big, lazy self bucks of show type who lived together happily ever after. These show type large self mice are notoriously laidback, and in American there is a tendancy to call these mice "English type" or "English show mice". Whilst discussing these mice with their peers, a mistake was made and everyone understood it to mean ALL English mice.

If we were big on breeding for a gentle temperament over here I could see why people might say that, but we're not.


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## Fraction

Actually I'd imagine if there was any truth to it, it wouldn't be environmental differences so much as genetic differences.

It's very, very possible that CERTAIN LINES may have bred a more male-tolerant line, whether by breeding for that or just as a consequence of breeding for x other thing, in that that stud was breeding (purposefully or accidentally) male mice that can tolerate or live harmoniously with each other, simply through only breeding males that are non-aggressive, or making sure that *highly* aggressive males are not bred from.

Unless you've kept a particular line for a while though, or your mice come specifically from a breeder who's line is more same sex tolerant in the males (and you can keep them on the same food, in a very similiar set-up, etc, as at the breeder's), then I certainly wouldn't just bung male mice in together and expect them to be buddies.


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## SarahY

Exactly, and show breeders here aren't concerned with that kind of thing. I imagine if one worked for years, decades maybe, you _could_ end up with a line of mice where you could breed a male and return him to his cagemates no problem. But this in itself raises another problem; the passive males are not as likely to breed, which is something a lot of breeders (including myself) have witnessed. The best breeding males are the manliest, they're the ones that get their wives knocked up on the first night every time. So one may well end up with a line of males who just won't breed.


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## Rhasputin

SarahY said:


> It's rubbish, all rubbish!


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## SarahC

my champgne tans all live together and can be mixed even after breeding,not by deliberate design,they are just extremely docile although luckily breed ok.At the opposite end,when I had siamese they were difficult to mix with strange does let alone bucks.


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## kittygirl991

yes ive heard its true... i talk to a breeder who i think lives in america, i asked him about keeping males together and he said english male mice are much calmer around other males


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## Rhasputin

kittygirl991 said:


> yes ive heard its true... i talk to a breeder who i think lives in america, i asked him about keeping males together and he said english male mice are much calmer around other males


Please stop telling people to do dangerous things with their mice. You have no experience keeping males together, and cannot advise anyone on the matter.

It is not true. Males are males, no matter where in the world they come from. The vast majority of males, when housed with other males, will fight violently, and harm one another, if not kill.


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## SarahY

> yes ive heard its true... i talk to a breeder who i think lives in america, i asked him about keeping males together and he said english male mice are much calmer around other males


For GOODNESS SAKE! Why won't you listen to ALL the people on here? :roll:  Believe it, don't believe it, I don't really care - but please STOP telling people such incorrect and dangerous information!


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## kittygirl991

well im not, i know for a fact, males can be kept together, even if its rare or not they can!


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## SarahY

Well I bow to your greater wisdom and experience, Kittygirl. Especially since you have yet to experience this for yourself. :roll:


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## kittygirl991

well i have had all of the breeders on this site tell me it can be done


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## Wight Isle Stud

kittygirl, you are doing nothing to help your credibilty. When you see a mouse with hardly any skin left across its back and torn ears, running in blood, contrary to what you have been told loads of times on here, it will be your fault.


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## PPVallhunds

kittygirl991 said:


> well i have had all of the breeders on this site tell me it can be done


actualy you havent, on your post about male babies basickly everyone said it can be done BUT raily and its not the norm so not worth the risk. but as usual you choise not to listen to what the majority of people with more experance are telling you as its not what you want to hear.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9016


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## MoonfallTheFox

I have living breathing proof that bucks CANNOT live together. My little Augustus was "saved" the day after his shipment came in to a pet shop. He was in a mixed gender feeder tank. Once I got him home I found literally HUNDREDS of bite marks, one of which had abscessed.

I am thankful he was not worse. I hate to know what happened to the other bucks. Had he been in there longer he would probably have been killed. He is content by himself and provided with lots of toys and affection. There's no reason I would ever risk his life by putting him with other bucks again.


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## PPVallhunds

Ive kept a group of 5 virgin males tougher in the past, they lived tougher for over a year untill i bred one (which took ages as he wasnt intrested at all) and put him back as i didnt know better and he attacked his cage mate so badley i had to have him put down. 
Befor this i had some males tougher and one male attacked the others and one boy allmost lost his tail and testicals and was lucky to just be permarnatly scared. 
i once picked up a new boy around 7weeks old and he was with his 2 litter brothers and they were arguing most of the way home untill i took him out and sent his brothers on there way to where they were going. 
I kept 3 brothers tougher untill 12 weeks when one started bullying the other 2. 
I had a bunch of boys i sent off tougher and they were fighting in the box befor leaving. 
had a babie male i misssexed as a female get bitten by a male. 
So out of the 6 times ive had males tougher its only worked once with some real layed back boys.

I think its down to the males indivigual personalitys weather it would work or not..


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## jadeguppy

kittygirl991 said:


> well i have had all of the breeders on this site tell me it can be done


How dare you say such a thing! Many breeders told you not to do it. This is insulting to everyone of us that told you it is a bad idea. If you are going to only hear half of what I say, please don't ask for my advise.


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## Rhasputin

jadeguppy said:


> kittygirl991 said:
> 
> 
> 
> well i have had all of the breeders on this site tell me it can be done
> 
> 
> 
> How dare you say such a thing! Many breeders told you not to do it. This is insulting to everyone of us that told you it is a bad idea. If you are going to only hear half of what I say, please don't ask for my advise.
Click to expand...

Exactly. We all told you it was a bad idea. I doubt a single person encouraged you to do it.


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## hlforumhl

Well, I have had situations of all sorts. That's why I asked. I have had many, many males that exhibit aggressive behavior to other males. I have had a few pairs that lived together for a year or more before begining to fight, and I have had the rare few males that live together well. I was wondering if maybe these males had English blood, but from the look of these posts, they probably are just extremely docile mice with no more English blood than my next mouse. Maybe I should start my own line of docile males, out of these few of my boys!


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## Rhasputin

The location that the mice come from doesn't matter.

There is a general assumption, that from the intense breeding for docility in show mice for hundreds of years, it could have reduced the male aggression, and it probably has. But the statement 'English males can live together' is not true.


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## kittygirl991

PPVallhunds said:


> kittygirl991 said:
> 
> 
> 
> well i have had all of the breeders on this site tell me it can be done
> 
> 
> 
> actualy you havent, on your post about male babies basickly everyone said it can be done BUT raily and its not the norm so not worth the risk. but as usual you choise not to listen to what the majority of people with more experance are telling you as its not what you want to hear.
> viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9016
Click to expand...

yes but they said it can be done....didnt they


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## Rhasputin

It can't -be- done. It happens. 
You can't force two male mice to live together, it's COMPLETE chance, and luck.

You are a burden to us all, I must say. :| 
We ARE the people who responded to your post originally, we ARE the breeders you 'talked to', and we're telling you, "DON'T PUT MALES TOGETHER".


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## kittygirl991

well its funny, it must be luck to have seen every single male living together? and when my mum was lil buying tem from the pet shop and puttign them together, i will tell u this now, she loved breeding animals when she was young, but didnt no how, she just housed them together without knowing they would fight, and it must be luck that ALL of them didnt fight?


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## WoodWitch

Just do what you want to do, Kittygirl, it's your choice entirely.......but please don't waste the time and patience of our experts by posting continuously on here, asking for advice when you don't listen to a word that they are good enough to tell you, all for nothing, for free!


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## SarahY

> Just do what you want to do, Kittygirl, it's your choice entirely.......but please don't waste the time and patience of our experts by posting continuously on here, asking for advice when you don't listen to a word that they are good enough to tell you, all for nothing, for free!


I completely agree.


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## Frizzle

kittygirl991 said:


> well its funny, it must be luck to have seen every single male living together? and when my mum was lil buying tem from the pet shop and puttign them together, i will tell u this now, she loved breeding animals when she was young, but didnt no how, she just housed them together without knowing they would fight, and it must be luck that ALL of them didnt fight?


The pet store mice I usually see are usually pretty young. Not to mention that I'm sure that any causualities are removed before people see them.


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## Laigaie

Not so. I often have to politely ask the petshop crew to remove seriously ill, injured, or deceased mice. Most shop have quick turnover; my shop here has no mouse for more than seven days. They completely run out before they get the next shipment in. In that seven days, however, mice who are in complete shock and who have been highly stressed for some time, are allowed to live in cramped quarters. That they do not kill eachother can be attributed solely to their young age, their cramped quarters, and the fact that none of them have had the opportunity to have their own space.


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## PPVallhunds

kittygirl991 said:


> yes but they said it can be done....didnt they


no they said it can be done in RARE cases and its NOT THE NORM and that it is NOT ADVISED.
Do you actualy understand what the word rare means? ill tell you, it means its not common, so in this case it means that keeping males tougher and them not fighting at some point doesnt happen often. Yes you mum must have been lucky or just cant rember everything from when she was a kid, and mice in petshops are YOUNG, young males can get on untill they get older.

Jusy because something can happen in rare circumstances doesnt mean it will happen every time hence the word rare. 
But if you want to ignor what EVERYONE is telling you thats fine you can put your own mice in danger if you want.

Good on you hlforumhl for listening to people


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## MoonfallTheFox

I have seen young mice turn.

Sometimes stress from being together can prevent fights. Sometimes luck. However. It will NEVER EVER be worth risking ANY living being for. I cannot understand why you insist on continuing with this idea when it could cause pain and suffering!

Just about any animal keeper I know wants what is best for the animals and they do not want animals to die, especially not from preventable things.

People keep telling you that males cannot live together safely. If you would like more than one mouse per cage get does, who live for company.

I can tell you that Augustus would not like a male intruder. There's no reason to stress and endanger my pet, who I love very much. Another kritter keeper would hardly be much more work, and my bucks would be safe. (if I had more than one.)


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