# Well, a lot of firsts.



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

So with my large banded drop, I have a lot of firsts. With these five litters (ranging in 7 to 17), I've had my first runts. My first homozygous banded(charlie, it's kinda cute)! My first tail kink. : ( And a bunch of unusual band marks. They were born between the 22nd and the 24th.

My Charlie, female. I know people usually cull these, but I wanted to see what it would look like.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426178_10150569996410741_500095740_9513858_1917120667_n.jpg

My kink,  I was keeping the PE from this group to see what I'd get genetically. And it's really hard to get rid of something that COULD be great. I noticed his tail a day or so ago, he was born the night of the 22nd/23rd. Also, the other sibling has a full tail, it's just going down of the side of my hand.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/430443_10150570000810741_500095740_9513916_2088059104_n.jpg

A really weird band on the one farthest left. It just comes up on the one side, idk if I should keep it to see what occurs. Just makes me think about those mice labeled as "pied" and all the things they could be. Grandsire was S/S, idk how to be sure about the granddam since zips and spots happen with this variety. Or so I've read?
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/430443_10150570000795741_500095740_9513914_1435078609_n.jpg

Also some from the Waldo paring; I'm on my way for double banded mice!
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/430004_10150570044490741_500095740_9514123_1688419805_n.jpg

These two were born the night of the 22nd/23rd as well, sisters, from the litter of 17 (culled to 7, and now 5). I couldn't get them to lay head to head, the difference was more extreme in person. Also had another small one in another litter, both I noticed a couple day's ago.
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...570000830741_500095740_9513917_47486867_n.jpg


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

Beautiful bubs<3

I can't offer any advice but they are super cute!


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Thank you. : ) I guess I'm just posting to mull over these things, that tail will never fix itself, right? So I should cull it, yes?


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Is it congenital or injury? Since it showed up so early I'd think congenital, so think really long and hard if it's worth breeding a mouse with a spinal defect.


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

I never saw any damage/reddness, so I'm assuming it is a birth defect. His parents were siblings, do I need to worry about this turning up more often, or is it something that just happens on occasion? Three of the other litters were all sibling pairings, I didn't have anything crop up in those. I don't think I will breed from him either way, so I guess I should just stop putting off offing him.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

The tail kink in an interesting question. I had a whippet dog with a kinked tail and both the breeder and vet sad it sometimes happen when the pups are in the womb and are too tight. 
Are we sure tail kinks breed true?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

No, as you say it could be defect caused in the womb. I have bred a kinked tailed mouse before, I had to as I had no choice of other does. The kittens were fine, their kittens were fine, and so on.

I suppose it comes down to being prepared to deal with it if the kittens are born with nasty spinal defects. If you are prepared to cull and can handle the prospect of seeing deformed/injured pinkies then give it a try. If not, then it's best to not bother.

If that was my only marked argente, I would give it a go.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Some kinks seem to be genetic and inheritable, and others are just spontaneous or injuries.


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

The way his band is coming in, I don't think I'd breed from him either way. Glad to hear it *could* be just a fluke, there were 11 in his litter to a first time mom, his grandma just had the litter of 17 with no kinks that I saw, and I'm interested to see what the future litter sizes of my mice will look like. How have you all selected for larger litters for more choices, or smaller for less strain on the mothers? Or is litter size something that you haven't selected for (being so many other things to pick!) but has evolved along with your mice? I'm pretty confident in the litter sizes being hereditary, if large litter's persist from DS's line, is there anything I should watch for? Like a sudden decline in mice per litter? Idk, my mice are now two generations from the original pet store mice; should I start to see changes between these mice and their grandparents? Gotta run to class, thanks for reading my rambles!


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I produced a successful exhibition line of black eyed whites from banded charlies.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

One of my first does was a naturally small litter producer. Her first litter ever was only 4. Her second was only 5. But her daughters all had large litters, and I've never had anyone produce such small litters again, even though the original doe's blood runs through at least half of my current lines. And it was definitely the doe, because the same buck bred to another doe produced 16... I think maybe my first doe had reduced fertility.

I think in general litter size is not something we select for. Many of us cull down to a smaller number anyway, so the original number of babies doesn't really matter.


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## Bridgette Rena (Jan 28, 2011)

I had a doe that was bred 3 times, each time producing only 2 bubs... And everytime produced a buck and a doe. :lol:


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

wow, that's like some sort of miracle!


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## Bridgette Rena (Jan 28, 2011)

Hehe, yeah. It was a pretty crazy coincidence.


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

So a little update, I culled both of the Charlies. Whether coincidence or not, both of them went down hill the last couple days, starting with them not being cleaned well, a noticeable size gap, and with one, a wasted look and bloated stomach, pictured bellow:









The one with the kink I kept anyways to see what would happen, and the end of the tail is barely noticeable now. If I hadn't seen it when he was young, I don't think I would have noticed it. Do you remember which one? It's the argente male, the left tail.









Here is the odd banded (placed by a dove half sister/cousin).


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## GibblyGiblets (Oct 2, 2011)

wow I have never seen one like the one in the last pic!, looks a bit like a hooded rat xD very pretty (o3o)


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