# Respiratory Infections.



## Tikmio

My mouse Shizu has been squeaking and sucking in her breath for quite some time now. She is alone in a 10gal with toys, food, etc. Basically since she got it, one other mouse (Cookie), if you hold her right next to your ear she'll make noises. I have Baytril, can I treat them? You don't know how worried I am, I didn't know it was contagious until reading a fancy rat article. Please help. I will seperate all the mice and isolate every mouse that was near Shizu if I have too.


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## kellyt

Yes you can treat it 1ml of Baytril in 20mls of water but change it every two days. I would only treat any showing signs as Baytril is the same as when we take antibiotics it can strip away good bacteria as well. You could give some natural yoghurt to her as well to keep her bacteria balance right.
Bear in mind that really it should be treated as soon as possible rather than leaving it as it can cause scarring to the lungs. So the fact that she is sucking in her breath is not a good thing. I am a firm believer in quality over quantity, as much as she means to you if she is suffering dont drag it on.


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## Tikmio

I think I've left Shizu too long, and I'll cull her. But Cookies signs just showed up, so I'll treat her. So 20ml of water and 1ml of baytril in her water bottle? Could I give her like a pea sized amount of ('pure') baytril with some strawberry juice for flavoring every day until she's better? I've done this with geckos, but not mice yet... Could anyone give me and idea of just how contagious respiratory infections are? Because with ALL my mice, if I hold them, RIGHT up to my ear, they make like sniffing sounds.... I'm just overreacting, right? God, you don't know how worried I am...


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## Tikmio

Also, there's no way -I- can get it right?


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## morning-star

Sadly some R.I's are very contagious, just being in the same air space with mice that have it, can cause others to get it.

If you think the others may have it treat all of them.

Isolate all the ones you think may have it into another room if you can, and keep cleaning your hands etc between handling each box of mice.

Remember when listening to them close to your ear mice do make a lot of 'talking' - chattering/clicking teeth, little squeaky noises etc the trick is learning a to tell the difference between R.I sounds (wheezing, loud/heavy breathing/squeaky noises, constant loud chattering) and a mouse that's just happy/annoyed to see you.


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## Tikmio

The same noise for happy and annoyed? Lol.

I am going to go to the mousery now and listen to Cookie, then I'll tell you what I hear, etc.



> Sadly some R.I's are very contagious, just being in the same air space with mice that have it, can cause others to get it.


You mean for other mice, not me right?


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## morning-star

Tikmio said:


> You mean for other mice, not me right?


yes I mean other mice - it cant be caught by people we are too different - though it'll pass to other rodents.


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## Tikmio

Okay = phew! I think 2 mice have it, severely. Shizu, and Jerry. Those two are being culled, and the possible mice are being isolated.


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## Tikmio

Oh my god. So I go out to get the poor things for culling, and I change my mind about culling Jerry, cause I don't hear it anymore, and Shizu- is pregnant.

The story behind Shizu's pregnancy- before we knew she had the resp. infection, she was with SnowPatch for like 2 weeks. Now feel bad about culling a bunch of babies, so my idea is: As soon as she has the babies, clean them, hoping they don't already have the infection, and give them to a new mom (we have 3 nursing moms right now). Or do you think I should just cull her (and the babies inside of her)?


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## morning-star

If you want to let her have the bubs you can, they _should_ be ok if not kept with the mother for too long after birth, you'll want to put mum on the baytril in the meantime -baytril shouldn't affect the babies/pregnancy.

Obviously keep the mum isolated, and you might want to keep the mum who fosters the babies away from the rest when she gets the litter to look after, just in case.

I would personally would cull her but it depends on how much you want to try and save the babies.


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## Tikmio

OK, she doesn't look that far into pregnancy, so I'll take a few days to make the decision. Thank you so much for all your help  Really helps.


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## tinyhartmouseries

DO not wash those babies. If you want to foster over you can use vanilla extract or the new mom's pee to mark the babies. If you use vanilla, get the baby's bottoms and the mom's nose.


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## Tikmio

I was meaning to 'clean' the babies so they didn't have resp. infection germs from mama that would get on new mama. I could pat them with a damp cloth maybe?


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## tinyhartmouseries

I would not risk that with those tiny babies at all! If they have the germs, they have them from the air and their mother's body...they are nothing that you can wash off.


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## Tikmio

Oh, OK. I think I might just cull her. Sort of a bummer, because those babies are/were hopefully my blue pieds  Oh well, I'll find another doe.


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## Stina

I would cull her...the mice that get respiratory infections first, are those with the least resistance to it........and that can be genetic. With as many health problems as you've already had with your mice do you really want to perpetuate a sensitivity to respiratory infections?......


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## kellyt

Baytril does effect babies it can stunt growth but it's a risk you have to take if she needs treating. Septrin can be given instead but it's hard to get hold of.


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## morning-star

kellyt said:


> Baytril does effect babies it can stunt growth but it's a risk you have to take if she needs treating. Septrin can be given instead but it's hard to get hold of.


I had mums on baytril before (oh be it a good while ago -I don't bother treating R.I any-more, its easier and safer for the rest just to cull ) and the bubs grew up to be big and healthy with no R.I and no side effects. It might be luck of the draw though?

I learnt the hard way how quick R.I can spread -I had to cull down to about 12 does and 1 boy a while back because of it.


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## tinyhartmouseries

It is your call. What I've always done is seen if the mouse responds to Baytril in just a few days, I won't cull it, but won't breed it either, unless it's say, very rare or important...I never breed a mouse that gets sick twice though. I have heard that Baytril is the best to use with a pregnant doe.

If a mouse doesn't respond quickly I do euthanize it. What usually ends up happening is that only one mouse will get sick and the rest never catch it because they are hardy and I catch any illness quickly, but if you are scared you are going to be dealing with an epidemic you do need to take precautions against it spreading. You decide!


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## Kallan

Baytril is Enrofloxacin, a fluoroquinolone. Is has been tested on pregnant animals and is generally safe, but the risk is to the growing foetuses - the active from of the drug can disrupt the cartilage in growing animals, so vets generally don't use in it dogs and cats under a year old (this includes foetuses!). However, in a mouse with a R.I., there is little else licensed and legal, so in these cases the benefit to the mother (treatment) outweighs the risk to the offspring and the risk to the mother in not treating.

Please do not use statements like, 'use 1ml of baytril in 20ml water'. This to me sounds like a massive overdose, given the correct and licensed dose is 1ml of 2.5% oral solution per 150ml drinking water.

If you are giving the stuff direct to the mouse, the correct dose of 2.5% oral solution is 0.008ml per 40g mouse. That is to be diluted 1 part Baytril: 4 parts water.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Kallan,
I have been giving one drop from the smallest syringe I can find when I give it, once or twice a day based on severity. Is this the equivalent of what you've stated here?


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## Kallan

Depends on the strength and dilution of what you have. Twice a day is generally best.

We are lucky with Baytril that severe side effects at high doses are minimal - as mice are so small it is very difficult to be accurate!


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## kellyt

Well considering that was the dosage I was advised to give by a very qualified vet I very much doubt it is a massive overdose! I'm literally going on what I was advised by that vet and it dealt with the problem with no issues. That amount was left for two days and then changed so I would imagine the amount the mouse actually had was alot less. I wouldn't like to try to syringe things down a mouse you could then make the issue worse if they then inhaled it into their lungs.


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## tinyhartmouseries

If you syringe a mouse it's medication you are insuring that it gets the full does, or most of it. If you give it medication in a water bottle, it's only getting as much as it drinks. If it doesn't drink enough it won't get the full dose and the bacteria might even become resistant with continued low doses. That's how I understand it.


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## Tikmio

Wow! This got huge... Okay, I think Stina is right, I don't need anymore mouse issues. So I think her and Jerry have gotta go and maybe the mousery will be at lower risk. I will keep listening to the mice every day and update you on anything else strange.


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## Stina

As far as dosage...if you are putting it in water it depends on the strength of the baytril you are adding... you really CAN'T just say "1ml per 4 oz" unless you KNOW the concentration and that it is the correct amount. However, that said...if I recall correctly, everything I've ever read/seen/been recommended is about 1.8 ml/8oz of water for 10% baytril.



> If you syringe a mouse it's medication you are insuring that it gets the full does, or most of it. If you give it medication in a water bottle, it's only getting as much as it drinks. If it doesn't drink enough it won't get the full dose and the bacteria might even become resistant with continued low doses. That's how I understand it.


Yes, direct medicating is more accurate....but at the same time, if you are medicating more than a few animals it would be crazy to try to give them each medication twice a day one by one....


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## Kallan

kellyt said:


> Well considering that was the dosage I was advised to give by a very qualified vet I very much doubt it is a massive overdose! I'm literally going on what I was advised by that vet and it dealt with the problem with no issues. That amount was left for two days and then changed so I would imagine the amount the mouse actually had was alot less. I wouldn't like to try to syringe things down a mouse you could then make the issue worse if they then inhaled it into their lungs.


That is fine as the vet has probably diluted it down already to give you the 1ml Baytril : 20ml water dosage. You cannot tell someone else that dosage as you don't know which concentration is being used.



tinyhartmouseries said:


> If you give it medication in a water bottle, it's only getting as much as it drinks.


That's how the dose is worked out. The manufacturers take into account the daily water intake of an ill mouse, and work out what the concentration has to be for that volume of water to contain the correct dose (given the water intake will be reduced, metabolism may be altered, and some won't be absorbed and activated in the body), and then work out how much neat Baytril is added to how much water to get that concentration. The mouse is never going to drink the full amount of antibiotic you add into the bottle per day, as it will never drink the full bottle in a day.


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## morning-star

0.02ml of baytril syringed into the mouth or mixed in a little jam to put on their backsides works really well.

better than in the water, I was always told they often drink less water because of the taste and the last thing you want is for them to frink less.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I thought Baytril could burn their skin?


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## Kallan

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I thought Baytril could burn their skin?


Not as far as I know, and I handle the undiluted stuff daily.


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## Stina

> 0.02ml of baytril syringed into the mouth or mixed in a little jam to put on their backsides works really well.


Again, unless you are doing only a couple individuals, this is very impractical and would take FOREVER

I've heard baytril can irritate the skin as well...but I've never actually seen it happen...doing a quick look around for actual veterinary information all I saw was potential irritation to mucous membranes when the concentration is pretty high. I wanted to look at the MSDS, but its pdf and I'm at work where I can't open pdf...


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## morning-star

Stina said:


> 0.02ml of baytril syringed into the mouth or mixed in a little jam to put on their backsides works really well.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, unless you are doing only a couple individuals, this is very impractical and would take FOREVER
> 
> I've heard baytril can irritate the skin as well...but I've never actually seen it happen...doing a quick look around for actual veterinary information all I saw was potential irritation to mucous membranes when the concentration is pretty high. I wanted to look at the MSDS, but its pdf and I'm at work where I can't open pdf...
Click to expand...

you've got a serious problem if more than 1-5 of your mice have R.I and your trying to treat it, and your also a seriously poor keeper if that's the case, therefore you shouldn't need to treat a large batch of mice (though just culling right from the start is the best choice for breeders)
-cull as soon as it appears in the odd mouse and it wont spread.

If you don't treat the R.I within the first 30 or so hours of it appearing there's only a 5-10% chance it'll be curable, most of the time it appears to go until you stop the baytril and then it'll come back with a vengeance.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I would be wary of saying what makes a poor breeder...URI's can crop up and spread rapidly despite anyone's best efforts. Most breeders cull to stop the spread but I'm not sure anyone can judge those that try to treat.

I thought that somewhere there were pictures of actual burns that Baytril had caused on a mouse's skin.


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## Stina

uh...yeah...respiratory infections do NOT automatically imply a poor breeder...if you happen to have a wild mouse get in it can EASILY pass infections onto domestic stock. Also, a lot of breeders, when a couple of mice display symptoms will just treat all of them. If its there in any, its there in all, whether they show symptoms or not...some may fight it off more easily than others, but if its a nasty infection (and you never really know if it is or not), it becomes MUCH more complicated to medicate as symptoms pop up in each mosue than to just put baytril in everyone's water to start with. This isnt' the option everyone uses, but it IS an option that is frequently used. Some infections can also incubate for over a month...and as such, even with a quarantine period you can have animals infected with something that can slowly crop up in your entire colony over a period of time if you don't just treat everyone.

I've rarely had reason to use baytril...but when I've had to, I generally treat everyone.


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## Tikmio

What about Amoxicillin being used for resp. infections?..

On the other note. I'm starting to think I might be fooling myself a bit. 4 Of the mice look normal, act normal etc, but when no other noises are being hear I hear super faint sniffing when there noses are almost in my ear. But of course a mouse is going to sniff in your ear, lol.

With Baytril, does it have to be perfect? Could I just add 2-4 drops to each water bottle? The bottles I use are 4-8oz. I don't really understand what half of this post is about anymore, I am freaking out I am so worried, could I just do 2-4 drops in each bottle? To all the mice and change all bottles every what was it 3 days? Or does this dosage need to be right on? God, you know me, not are the times I wanna quit.


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## morning-star

Sorry but if most of your stock has it (I'm talking when you have larger numbers of mice here -if you only have pet or 10-20 mice then yeah it may spread to all of them depending on how you keep them) then your not a very good breeder,

if one mouse in a box has it then the odds are most/all in the same box may have it, but it'll only spread between boxes if you don't check your mice every other day day, (soon as one has it your gonna want to check them all more often until the situation has passed.)

If you don't then don't remove the infected box from the area, it will spread. after removing the box(s)then you cull/or treat the box its affected.

if your trying to treat isn't it better to make sure each mouse gets the right dosage each day to give it, the best chance?
It seriously didn't take that long to syringe feed it to the mice when we tried.

if your treating a box some may drink more than others so some wont be getting the full amount.

I know people who cull just because a mouse sneezed once too many, and I have culled a few mice I _thought_ may have had an R.I starting.

If you have large numbers of mice its not worth the risk, you check regularly and stamp out any illness as soon as it pops up, the risk of it spreading is reduced.

The only times I have had R.I in mice is when it came in from new mice, I learnt the hard way -before I knew it could spread that easily (still took a couple of weeks), it is very hard to treat and ended up having to cull a good % of my mice. It's devastating but if you a larger breeder than the odds are you'll take to the culling root even if it means off-ing of a large box of them.

Any breeders I have spoken to have had no more than a few mice catch it at one time and they have stamped it out or isolated and treated before it has ever spread to a large number of mice.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I am not going to argue with you, but basically your opinions are facts to you, and that's fine,  but you should not judge other breeders. RI's are airborne, so even if you remove one tub of mice, the disease could be in the air. If you have a particularly strong strain, you might not be able to curb the spread fast enough. This is an extreme example, and the technique you described is going to work in most cases, but I don't think it's fair to be judging at all. Some members of the fancy have learned the hard way that bad things can happen to the best breeder's stock despite all intention.
Again, I'm not going to continue to argue because I'm just repeating myself and it's not really worth it to me, but please find it in your heart to not be so judging of situations you might not be personally experiencing.


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## Stina

As tiny said, RI's are airborne....It does NOT make a breeder bad just b/c an AIRBORNE infection somehow gets in and affects a lot of their stock. Sometimes there is NOTHING you can do to prevent it...period. With AIRBORNE infections that sometimes have a long incubation period...you can have things passed around and popping up for MONTHS...regardless if you remove everyone who's showing symptoms till they stop...and then they can just pick it up again if its still incubating in the rest of the colony because the rest weren't treated. For many it is just easy, and more fool proof to just treat everyone and stamp it out immediately than to potentially have something bouncing around in the colony for ages. Treating everyone isn't because its spreading all over, its to prevent that possibility....and like I said, even if you remove symptomatic animals from the area, that does NOT mean it hasn't already spread.

I've never had a large number of my mice get sick at once either...but I'm not willing to risk it...so if I have a couple get sick, I treat everyone.

BTW...Kallan is a vet...and as she said, the amount of baytril that's added to water is formulated for the amount of water that SICK mice drink.


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## SarahY

No, having a lot of sick animals does NOT make a bad breeder. It would behove you to be a lot less judgemental :roll:

When I had rats, I had about 40 and every single one came down with a pneumonia-type disease. I was treating them every morning and night for two weeks by injecting Septrim into their mouths and I still lost half of my rats.

A bad breeder is one who doesn't care enough to do anything about it.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I love that reasoning Sarah! The good breeders are the ones that care, period, and do what it takes to take care of the problems. Sorry to hear about your rats!


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## Stina

Ditto!!


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## Tikmio

So I do what Kallan said (with baytril), to ALL the mice and feed them yogurt with acidophilus in the process. And I offer the baytril water for 10days? Also, baytril water is safe for mice that don't have the R.I, correct?

Still asking about amoxicllin...


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## Tikmio

It would be cheaper for me to buy amoxicillin. Would the doesage be the same as baytril? I need answers fast, I'm getting ready to order. Also, amoxicillin is safe when they don't have it right? I want to treat everyone.


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## Stina

I'm not sure how effective amoxy is on rodent respiratory infections


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## Shadowrunner

I'm on ammox -right- now for a ear infection.

You want to be careful of another thing too.
Even if it does work the way you want, you could have a mouse that is allergic to the medication.
Personal experience- Blistery, fiery, rash inside my mouth,throat and nose.
Chances are you wouldn't notice those kinds of symptoms on a mouse.
I'd stick with baytril personally.


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## Tikmio

Ooo... That doesn't sound nice. Are you sure the side affects are the same for mice though? Sorry, you must be in so much pain


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## Tikmio

What about babies and pregnancy in mice that are taking amoxicillin? I wouldn't give it to the babies, could they just get it from mommy's milk? And it won't affect the pregnancy in a doe, correct?


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## Tikmio

I have 3 boxes of mice that were on baytril (yes, baytril, not amoxi) until today (10 days). 2-4 Of those mice are still clicking, but they are acting a bit healthier. Could it be that I treated it to late and all my mice are doomed? I really hope not. If this statement "If you don't treat the R.I within the first 30 or so hours of it appearing there's only a 5-10% chance it'll be curable" is true, I don't see this being an easy thing to deal with. Do you think the still-clicking mice just have lung damage, or is it cull time? Or will they have it forever, but it's no longer contagious?.. I really need to know what to do with the mice that have been on baytril, but are still clicking. Should I put them back on baytril for another 10 days?

Also, I read somewhere that the babies usually get it from their mom during birth, but the symptoms don't show 'til after 3 months of life. If I treat the mother, and her symptoms go away (while she is raising babies) are the babies probably free of URI? And will medicating the mom also be medicating the babies?

I do feel like a bad breeder, because almost all the mice are showing symptoms! I hate culling!!! It makes me shiver, and I don't want to cull all my favorite mice... It's just so awful for me


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## SarahY

> Of those mice are still clicking, but they are acting a bit healthier. Could it be that I treated it to late and all my mice are doomed? I really hope not. If this statement "If you don't treat the R.I within the first 30 or so hours of it appearing there's only a 5-10% chance it'll be curable" is true, I don't see this being an easy thing to deal with. Do you think the still-clicking mice just have lung damage, or is it cull time? Or will they have it forever, but it's no longer contagious?.. I really need to know what to do with the mice that have been on baytril, but are still clicking. Should I put them back on baytril for another 10 days?


Respiratory infections can scar the lung tissue so the mice may 'click' but aren't sick. 10 days of Baytril will have cleared up the infection I would have thought.



> Also, I read somewhere that the babies usually get it from their mom during birth, but the symptoms don't show 'til after 3 months of life.


This is untrue. The dam's milk contains antibodies which protect the kitts from most things until weaning. After weaning they are at risk. If you treat the dam while she is nursing they should wean clear of any infection.



> I do feel like a bad breeder, because almost all the mice are showing symptoms! I hate culling!!! It makes me shiver, and I don't want to cull all my favorite mice... It's just so awful for me


No-one wants to cull, you've just got to sometimes. If you are doing your best for your mice (by treating or culling) then you're not a bad breeder


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## Tikmio

What you just said makes me want to scream with joy! So the mice that are clicking are going to do this all their life? But they are not sick, just scared?


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## Laigaie

They are probably not sick, just scarred (meaning, they have scar tissue). They will be less strong, but are no less good as breeding stock.


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## SarahY

Yes, that is often the case, I've seen it in rescue rats and mice a lot  Keep your eyes open for any other symptoms just in case; porphorin (red liquid) around the eyes and nostrils, fur out of condition, hunched back. Just the normal signs of a sick mouse


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## Tikmio

I will. I'll go to the mousery right now and check on em!


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