# First litter SUPER excitement! and questions!



## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

I had counted 16 days from the day they first met. I was 100% sure (har har) that they hadn't mated that early, but I put her in her nursery tank at day 16 from then just in case. So the 6th/7th was the _very earliest possible_ date that she could have given birth.. I've been at my mom's house for 2 days, and just came home tonight hoping that at least she would look obviously pregnant.. when checking on her, lo and behold I FOUND A BABY! Not sure how many there are, because as soon as I saw the one I put everything back as I'd found it as quickly as I could so I wouldn't disturb her further.

Anyway, I'm VERY VERY excited!! What a nice surprise to come home to! I'm not entirely sure what day they were born on -- could have been the night I left (Friday), or this afternoon (Monday). So I was planning on leaving them for 3 full days without disturbing them (oops).. but now I'm wondering, because if they were born Friday night, they'll end up being 6 days old before getting any handling. Suggestions? I friend said to watch for when the mother (Ophelia) spends more time outside the nest.

I would just hate to stress her out to the point where she'll cull the litter. I'm already worried that checking her tonight might do that.. I really just wanted to see if she looked obviously pregnant yet! (She never did!)

My other question; I've heard the babies make a heck of a noise if the mom.. reduces the litter. I stayed in my room whispering and listening for 10 minutes after I accidentally disturbed her. I didn't hear anything but a couple teeny tiny, barely audible, happy sounding squeaks. If she was so stressed that she wanted to cull the babies, would she have done it immediately after being disturbed?


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## DaisyTailsMousery (Nov 8, 2012)

I handle from day 1 even with skittish mice. I wait for mommy to leave the nest by herself, then I pick her up and put her somewhere she can't escape (travel carrier for me) rub my hands in the soiled bedding and count how many/cull/ see if they are pink eyed or black eyed. then put the babies how they were and put momma back. After that first day I handle every day (sometimes twice a day) for about 5 minutes at a time using the same method. I'm pretty sure that if she was going to cull she would have already done so


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

I lifted the top of the nest again. There's only one. How weird is that? I'm upset because I feel like I may have caused her to cull the rest.


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## genevie (Mar 11, 2012)

DaisyTailsMousery said:


> I handle from day 1 even with skittish mice. I wait for mommy to leave the nest by herself, then I pick her up and put her somewhere she can't escape (travel carrier for me) rub my hands in the soiled bedding and count how many/cull/ see if they are pink eyed or black eyed. then put the babies how they were and put momma back. After that first day I handle every day (sometimes twice a day) for about 5 minutes at a time using the same method.


I do pretty much exactly this, so I wouldn't wait 3 days if I were you fancyteddy. I know it can be pretty nerve-wracking, I've only had two litters so far (one intentional, one where I adopted a pregnant mouse) and both times I was so worried about her spontaneously culling, but both litters turned out great (in fact, litter 2 just opened their eyes yesterday!) - if that level of handling really did cause a mother enough stress to cull, I'd say that's a sign that she would not have made a good parent.

EDIT: To me it seems very unlikely that she would have culled just because you peeked. Perhaps it happened before that? Is there definitely only one, or can you only see one? Also, are there any dead bodies in the nest? With both litters I've found two dead bodies in the nest (which I immediately removed) that looked stillborn to me rather than culled by the mother.


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

I only peeked twice, so I'm not 100% sure there's only one, but I am quite very sure. I don't see any definitely dead babies, but again as soon as I saw one pinky I put everything back - there's a possibility the one I saw isn't even alive. Perhaps she culled before I came home.. Is there a possibility I disturbed her during birth and she retained the rest? This is my first litter.. I'm really surprised there's only one and super cautious of my actions.

I'll wait for Ophelia to leave the nest, then transfer her to a temporary tank while I check for more babies. Good idea?

Thanks everyone, I don't know what I'd do without this forum!


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I also take a peek on Day One, but I also remove the mother from the tank entirely. I'd rather she not see me handling her babies and disturbing her nest. Rub your hands in bedding first.

How funny, my second litter was out of an Ophelia.


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## DaisyTailsMousery (Nov 8, 2012)

I had a litter of only one. She turned out just fine! I, just like you, came back from my dads house and checked to see if she had a belly and only found one. I wondered the same as you, but that single baby grew up to be a strong and beautiful mouse. I named her Solitaire because she was the only one. I thought the first time that maybe I disturbed her and there were more coming, so I didn't check again until a few hours later and there was still only one. I am thinking she just had a small litter and some came out stillborn/deformed/unhealthy so mom ate them. Or she may have had only one. It is common for mice to have tiny litters the first time around


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

I don`t handle pups at day one but use chopsticks for picking them up, stainless steel type so can disinfect after and prior to use, rub the tips in the soiled substrate and have had better success with new mums not being as stressed out and self culling.


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

DaisyTailsMousery said:


> I named her Solitaire


That's lovely! Very good idea :lol:

I'm feeling a lot less panicked and confused now, thank you everyone! I'm watching for Ophelia to be out of the nest, I haven't seen her come out at all. I guess that's a good indication that the baby was born very recently? I gave her some little puppy biscuits and filled up her food bowl, at some point during the night she took both puppy biscuits. If I see her out of the nest I'll take the opportunity to check things over and I'll post an update. 

Thanks again everyone!


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I was wondering about how successful you'd be with that.  I was able to scoop out the doe of my first litter but the others would hurry back when the lid came off the tank. No need to rush it. I'm a bit of a bully with my mice (aka I gently nudge her off the babies if they are not feeding) but I wouldn't do this with a mouse that didn't trust me. It's a risk. Maybe wait a day on the chance that they're only a few hours old.


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Ophelia _finally_ came out of her nest and I was able to take a look! There is definitely only one baby.. I *think* it's a boy. He's soooo cute! I've never seen alive pinkies before <3 (that sounds morbid, I should clarify it's because I work at a pet store so I've seen the frozen reptile food ones).

So I hope he's going to be alright, he looks skinny to me.. He did have a milk band but it wasn't as prominent as ones I've seen in other photos before. A friend of mine said Ophelia's milk production might be slower to start because there's only one baby - anything I can do about that? Just watch and be prepared to hand feed him? I can easily get some KMR or Esbilac - what's better, and is the powder form or canned liquid better? Just so I can have it on me if she stops producing milk.

Should babies have a noticeable milk belly all the time?

I looked around and in the nest for any indications that she may have reduced the litter, but didn't see anything.

Here's some pics of the baby:


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

That is the drawback to tiny litters, some does slow (and can stop) milk production. I don't think there's a way to remedy this (one reason why people breed two litters at once) but I'm all ears if there is. I have read success stories though, so let's hope she has more to give.


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

I agreed with Seafolly. I also agree with you (fancyteddy1), that unfortunately he looks skinny and has an empty stomach. That look they sometimes get were they look sunken in from the ribs down is not a good sign. Good luck with him, I really hope he pulls through.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

It's entirely possible she culled the litter without a trace to be found due to something wrong that she detected in the babies which could be why he's so skinny. In either case, do brace yourself and don't get too attached quite yet! He has hope, I just think it's wise to be aware of the possibilities.


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## DaisyTailsMousery (Nov 8, 2012)

I've used goats milk in the past in whole lliquid form. Keep in mind that even though it says on the can that it goes bad in a week, mice have more sensitive digestive systems so if you use goat milk replace it every 2 days! This is sooo important I accidentally killed a mouse I was hand raising because I didn't know this. I would have it handy, but the doe may keep producing milk like mine did with only one in the litter. you will just ave to wait and see


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

A couple pics from (what I believe to be) day 2:

You can see his/her milk belly more  

















And today, day 3 - there's some definite pigment happening! I'm thinking s/he's definitely going to be brindle  I also love how the facial features are developing more, and those WHISKERS! <3 
Full belly too!

























Baby kept flipping over! 









WHISKERS! 

























How do you think s/he looks?


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

A bit skinny, but if mother wasn't lactating she would have perished already, so pretty darn good keeping in mind the circumstances.  The ears have separated which is normal for day 3 (you can see them still attached at day two), that's a good sign. I hope she keeps growing well for you!


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

The only solution I can think of in your situation (if you only have one nursing doe) would be to check the pet store or local feeder breeders for live pinkies (many are sold live for food) and try to foster another 1-2 kits onto her. I do know a lot about hand-rearing though if you end up needing it, but I doubt it will come to that if she's been doing good and have my fingers crossed that this is the case. Good luck!!


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

I was a little disappointed to see her belly didn't look full today.. hoping it's just because she's becoming less transparent? I offered her some KMR on the end of a clean, unused paint brush.. she didn't like it and wouldn't take to it. Unfortunately there isn't a place around here that sells live pinkies, so that's not an option. I'm just holding my breath at this point. Mom's nipples are visible - does that indicate she's still lactating?

Here's some pics from today


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

Oh she's adorable and so stripy! The fact that she looks so different from a few days ago is good, she's growing up well, and does not seem to be premature; she is still skinny though. With that said, I'm sure the mother is still lactating. The does nipples are always going to be visible, but they will be more well defined when she's lactating.


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Some pics from last night. I'm hoping she's looking a little less skinny..










































I love her so much it's silly XD


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

She is looking better every update! She looks like a heavily marked brindle to me... what colors did you say her parents were?


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Good! Phew, I'm glad to hear that someone else thinks so too! Lol. Her dad's a light broken marked satin brindle, moms a satin pew. I'd hoped to be able to answer some questions and fill in the gaps on moms genetics with this litter; but being only one baby thats a little tricky


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

I don't know a thing about brindles, except that they are prone to obesity and that it's a dominant allele. :lol: I was just asking to clear up if she was a brindle or not. This baby wont tell you much about what the PEW parent could be masking, because the brindle is from the sire.


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

I know! All I can probably tell is, if she doesn't have white markings then mom isn't hiding a spotty gene! I'm considering breeding the same pair again in the future, because Ophelia's been a really great mom and both parents have fantastic temperaments. I'd be concerned that she'd have another 1 baby litter though, just because I've been so worried that she might stop producing milk. Could the tiny litter be because it's her first, perhaps? Or should I avoid breeding her again?


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

It's hard to say... I've had some does who seem to give larger litters and some that tend to have smaller ones. First litters are usually smaller, but there is a possibility that your doe had a larger litter and culled some herself. I think it's probably okay to breed her again as long as you are prepared for the reality of having to cull some babies if they fail to thrive. Are you aiming to breed brindles? If so you could breed this little doe (once she is of age of coarse) back to her father, then you would get brindles for sure.


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## DaisyTailsMousery (Nov 8, 2012)

I would breed her again. My doe that had only 1 had 9 in her next litter


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

I'd like to breed satin broken brindles  Dad has markings but looks like mom doesn't carry a spotting gene because the baby is self brindle.

Here's some pictures from the last few days, I'm loving her coat! (Yes she's overmarked I think as she's already rather dark, but I think she's perfect anyway  )


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

fancyteddy1 said:


> I'd like to breed satin broken brindles  Dad has markings but looks like mom doesn't carry a spotting gene because the baby is self brindle.


The dam could carry piebald and it could just be bad luck that you didn't get any. Statistically (if you draw the punnet sqaure), if dad was s/s and mum was S/s, half the litter would be s/s and half would be S/s, so only 50% would be piebald, the other 50% carrying piebald. At least you know the little brindle baby carries piebald.

She looks great! Very cute.


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## RockyMountainMice (Jan 16, 2012)

She is just way too precious! Beautiful.


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## fancyteddy1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Thank you guys  I'm having so much fun watching her grow up!


























Should her belly darken as she gets older?


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Adorable! 

Seconding that you don't know yet if mom carries pied. Very little can be concluded from a one baby litter.


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