# Origin of Respiratory Infections? Advice much appreciated...



## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm just wondering exactly HOW RIs get into a stud? I only have 3 boxes in use at the moment - one with my cinnamon stud buck, one with a doe sitting on five 9 day old does, and one with a doe sitting on three 5 day old bucks and a 5 day old doe - and two of the three boxes are rattling. The stud buck sounds quite bad; his breathing is rhaspy and he's got some damn big sneezes. His coat is also looking particularly greasy and I'm not sure why as he's on the same feed mix as the rest and they all look fine. To top it off, the box with the doe and her litter of 3 bucks and the doe are also sounding sick. The doe has been sneezing a little for maybe 2 weeks but I figured it was down to the bedding I was using because the sneezing is so few and far between, and she doesn't have that rattle in her breath like the buck does. However I'm now starting to think otherwise because despite having a litter to raise I'm finding her food is piling up and up so she's obviously not eating very much. And when I handled her litter just now two of the bucks were sounding sniffly too. Basically, if I were to cull all of the mice that sound sick I would be left with one of the original does and her litter of 5 does, and two 5 day old orphans (one buck and one doe) which then wouldn't survive because their mother is gone. Even if I were to sigh and say "Well, I've got to get rid of them to get rid of the illness" I'd then be left with only 6 does (and no bucks!) who may or may not then go on to pick it up themselves. I want to know how this got into the stud to begin with. They were absolutely healthy when I brought them here at the start of July and this has only reared its ugly head within the last few days so they didn't arrive with it. But I've not brought in any new mice or any other animals and haven't been in contact with any other mice at all. Is it just that it's airborn and a tiny molecule has floated in from outside and infected them? I genuinely don't know.

I guess I'm just frustrated  The pet mice I used to have developed RIs that ment I had to cull most of them too. Is it ME doing something wrong? Is there something I could have done to bring in the illness or create it in my mice? I just can't believe I wait months to get these mice, then weeks and weeks for them to have litters, and when they finally do this hits. It's a huge motivation killer; just as I get the ball rolling something bursts it. What should I do? I would really like to give the doe and her litter a chance because the doe really isn't sneezing much at all (in fact she didn't at all when I handled her just now) and I'm hoping with the litter being so young they'll just get over it. But the buck really does sound aweful, the only reason I haven't culled him already is because I've no idea if any of the three buck pups are going to be any good (or as good), though even if they're not I doubt I can ever use this one again without risking infecting whatever doe(s) I put in with him. Any advice what-so-ever is very much appreciated. I'll probably give Dave Safe (breeder of my foundation stock) a call tomorrow too.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

RI's are generally opportunistic and once one mousie has a full blown illness, that allows whatever it is to proliferate. Once the bug has 'power in numbers' its easier for it to spread to other individuals. A sometimes the source is a carrier who doesn't show symptoms; really nasty to get blindside when that occurs. Environmental factors encourage things lie this; temps too high or too low, drafts, noise, dust...you probably already know all of this, so I'll stop now.

I'm having a bit of a bug going around in my mousery that starts with a puffy face with the hair sticking straight out, usually gets better when the indiviual is put in a quieter, warmer, less drafty location. One doe has started 'dancing' a bit, so I gave her some Benadryl, and put her in a different location, changed her bedding everyday for a few days, so I'll see tonight if all that helped. She has a two week old litter that is able to take food on their own, and I've been giving them their own little dish of milk. There ahve been four of vie that looked a bit iffy, she's the only one that is bad enough to warrant treatment. these things seem to come with changes of weather...though I doubt that is a cause, but maybe a slight factor as it alters the need to heat/cool the area, which in turn affects the air in the mousery by making it more or less humid, more or less drafty as heating/cooling devices do their thing.

I hope you don't have to dump your stock, that would really hurt. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't know how or why it happens, but it is pretty common with new stock. A hundred things could cause it. As you only have a few mice at the moment, my advice would be to try and carry on with them. If they are looking really sick then you have to cull them, but just try and keep them going. Often the kittens will get over it although usually the parents will have to be culled. The only thing fanciers can do to combat it is build up enough enough stock so that any sick mice can be dispatched without derailing the breeding programme. Mice born in your environment will have a better have a better chance of remaining healthy than stock you've brought in from elsewhere.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help but I sincerely wish you the best of luck xx


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

No no, Sarah that is very helpful  I had it in my head that these are all useless now, it just reminds me of the pet mice I used to have that got quite bad and had to be culled. It's comforting to hear there's a chance they could get over it and I can at least try to carry on with these. None of them _look_ sick like my previous mice did, but like I said the buck is looking a bit greasy and has a loud sneeze so if any of them are going to get worse and need to go it'll be him. Hopefully one of the young bucks will grow up to be a stunner so they can replace him. Thank you


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Honestly, I suspect that a good deal of RIs are normal bacteria that happen upon a stressed mouse. Staph, strep, these sorts of things are honestly just always around, in the air, brought by other animals or carried in your own breath. If it takes hold in a single stressed mouse, it's a lot easier for another mouse to get it, and then another, and suddenly your whole stock is cough-squeaking and clicking and wheezing, and that's it. A new mouse is bringing in new bacteria, plus stressing itself out like crazy, not to mention whatever other mice are around it.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

'Stressed' may be the most important operative word in these cases. I think anyone who transports mousies with any regularity has noticed the tendency for some mousies to get a little 'off' from 'transport shock'. It's one of the reasons that I wouldn't take a mousie to the vet, I'd have a mobile vet come to my house. The trip there and back would be stressful enough, even without considering the poor mousie smelling cats.dogs, etc. in the waiting room.

And any group of stock kept in isolation from other populations, will have slight differences in the microorganisms from one group to the next. Some of those things reprogram themselves quite rapidly.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I think most of us recognise this scenario.As Sarah said,I'd continue and breed through it.As soon as the babies are weaned seperate them,as long as they stay in good bodily condition keep them and then cull the parents.Breed them and do the same.Eventually you will have enough youngsters to select those that don't show any signs and at this point you can start culling young as soon as they show symptoms.Don't keep any that are physically poor.


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## Tinkers Mousery (Feb 20, 2011)

i had a similar thing happen not long after i started breeding. its a pain in the bum but i managed to sort it. i just kept a close eye on everything and as soon as someting made the slightest noise it went into isolation and if continued it was culled. at one point i was just left with one doe and her son to start again. so i know how you feel. all i can say is good luck and i hope you get it sorted. p.s if the vets give you baytrill.......it doesnt work lol. well in my personal experience anyway lol so save ur money


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

I visited the vets when I had my pet mice and they gave me a mix of two drugs, can't remember for the life of me what they were (he flat out refused to give me baytrill), but it made no difference what-so-ever despite nearly 3 weeks of treatment. I won't even consider going to the vets with these mice though, they've been bred for generations without relying on vet treatment so these will have to brave it too. Can't afford to be breeding mice that need a trip to the vets to survive 

The buck is sounding a lot better today but the nursing doe is sounding worse. I'm feeling better about it all today though; I was so down about this yesterday, like my pet mice scenario is happening all over again. A kind of "Why should I keep bothering" sort of mood, but the nursing doe with the 10 day old litter have perked me up. I'm so glad that she's still sounding absolutely perfect. I've moved my mouse room to a different location; I was originally using our unused downstairs bathroom but it was a bit cosy. They've now been moved to my brother's bedroom in the cellar (he's not here of course ) which is the size of the floor plan of most of the house so I've got plenty of room to spread the boxes out. The healthy doe is now on the opposite side of the room and I've taken some latex gloves down there so I can minimise any spread. If I can keep her and the litter healthy then even worst case scenario the most I'd need to get going again is one buck which fingers crossed would be easy to get hold of.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

the nursing doe probably won't bounce back,they are the most likely to come down with anything because of the extra strain on them.I remember at one time virtually everything I had hopes of showing would get something.I was lucky in having mousebreeder on here as a neighbour and could see she was in the same boat so I knew I wasn't the only one.Now years on I hardly get any,I never give it a second thought that one I want to show will get ill,I expect them to be fighting fit and generally they are.I do soooooo empathise though.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> A kind of "Why should I keep bothering" sort of mood


Don't worry sweetie, that happens to us all! But we all get our mice through it in the end.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

Thank you both very much for the support  It's not been helped by my mother who's spent the afternoon telling me I must be doing something wrong since it looks like a repeat of my previous mice  I'm looking forward to leaving this house in the next few weeks, she's not fond of many of the common practices of exhibition breeders and I never hear the end of it :roll:

I think as my plan stands at the moment I'm going to do everything in my power to keep the nursing doe and the 5 doe litter healthy so I'll at least have 6 does to build on. Of the second litter, 2 of the bucks (annoyingly the only two agouti bucks) are sniffling so I am unlikely to ever use them for breeding, I just want to see if it's possible for them to get over this. The other two in that litter are a cinnamon buck and a cinnamon doe - I've got my fingers crossed that the buck stays healthy. If he does, as soon as he's weaned I'm going to split him off on his own and quarantine him for 2 weeks. If he still sounds fine then he'll be going straight in with two or three of the 6 healthy does. If that goes well, I'll put him to the rest. I'll keep the cinnamon doe from that litter too if she sounds fine, but I'm definately going to cull their mother once she's weaned the litter, and most likely the adult cinnamon buck too (I just won't ever feel comfortable mingling him with health mice anymore, and don't want a litter from two unhealthy mice). Things going to plan and fingers crossed that will control the situation enough for me to build up my number of healthy mice, but suggestions always welcome.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

my mother feels the same,she can't believe she's spawned me.I asked my dad if he would want my rabbit culls if I take them up.Mother was horrified,I'm not though.Why don't you see if you can arrange another buck for collection at the annual as a safety net.I've got one bred from a red in the nest if you really get to emergency stations that you can have.I don't breed them for showing though,it was just a random that popped out so it wouldn't be first choice to give you as it will probably be inferior to yours.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

Yeah, I've got past it bothering me now. Still don't think I'd stomach using the more forceful methods so I could never be a breeder of anything bigger than mice! I think if people hadn't found a way to use CO2 I wouldn't have even considered mouse breeding, but I digress :?

I considered contacting Dave Safe to see if he'd have another buck knocking about that I could have but I almost feel sorry for the bloke; I've spoken to so many people within the last few months that have said they got their mice, mostly the agoutis, from him and have then gone back to get more, I'm sure he wants some of his mice for himself! I've budgeted my student loans so that I can attent three more shows this year (the two Sowood shows and the Manchester one) so I think I'll put a post up on the NMC facebook page to see if anyone has either an agouti or a cinnamon buck spare that I could collect from one of those - with so many people having got mice from Dave it shouldn't be too hard to find someone that has a buck for me that not long ago came from the same lines. Thank you for the offer though, I'll definately keep you in mind


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## Kallan (Aug 16, 2009)

Most respiratory infections in rodents are caused by a species of Mycoplasma, and form of fairly resistant bacterium that is endemic in the rodent populations. I would go as far as to say most mice carry the organism somewhere in the respiratory tract - it is passed from mother to offpsring after birth. The only real way of getting Myco-free mice is the Specific Pathogen Free mice you gets in labs - they are derived by caesarian section and reared separately to prevent diease transmission.

Myco exists in equilibrium in most mice - the immune system keeps it in check, and you don't see any clinical signs of infection. However, if something happens to stress the immune system, the Myco gets the upper hand and that is when the mouse starts to show signs of respiratory disease - be it snuffling, sneezes or whatnot. The severity of the stress can reflect the severity of the symptoms.

This is why you get snuffles in a new mouse - the stress of transport, change in environment, new mice in close proximity, predators (e.g. cats and dogs) in close proximity, diet changes - and in circumstances that stress the mice - shows, extremes of temperature, dehydration, surgery, other illnesses; because the stress placed on the mouse lowers the immune system enough to let the Myco gain the upper hand.

Because Mycoplasmas are fairly resistant and don't sucumb easily to any antibiotic, the infection is rarely ever cleared by treatment, it just goes back to being subclinical again (no clinical signs). Some mice require constant antibiotic therapy to remain free of disease.

What may happen is that other bugs floating around in the lungs (e.g. the Pasteurellas) take advantage of the body now actively fighting the Myco and you get a secondary infection, that may be worse than the initial Mycoplasma. Mycoplasma in the lungs can cause interesting cuffing pneumonias, but Pasteurellas make a real mess of the lung tissue, and these secondary infections can be a difficult to shift as the Mycoplasma once they take hold.

</lecture> :nurse


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

So I have probably just made the situation a whole lot worse by moving all of the boxes to a different location :shock: 

Thank you for that information, I feel like I've got a better understanding of it now. If I were to try to find a suplement to give them that helps to boost the immune system do you think that could help them get over it? If not, would it do any harm? I'd like to try anyway if I can find something just to give them as much of a chance as I can.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Moving tanks around in your house shouldn't make it worse. Transporting by auto, in an out of buildings, changes in temperature and lighting..those are the sort of things to avoid. Unless the new location in your has very different temp, light, ventilation, and so forth, it shouldn't matter.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

Well it is different but if anything I think it's better. The temperature is slightly cooler but more constant, there's less light but again it's more constant, and it smells different down there too. Overall it's a better environment for them (and quieter) so hopefully once they've settled they'll feel better. The only reason I kept them where they were before is because it's very very similar (to the point where I don't think they'd be able to tell the difference) to where they'll be kept once I've moved house in a few weeks.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

Well things have taken a slight turn for the better. The healthy doe + 5 doe litter are still looking great (they opened their eyes yesterday  ), and the sickly sounding pups from the other litter are now sounding fine so I'm hoping that means they're over the worst of it now and can focus on growing! I did have to cull one of them though - the cinnamon buck of the litter gave me a bit of a shock. He literally hadn't grown at all for 2 days and was emaciated. I hated having to do it because he was too old to freeze but too young to gas, but I knew something had to be done. The doe nursing that litter is sounding better too. She's still sniffling, greasy and a bit thin but she's definately improved, and now with one less baby to feed I'm hoping she'll get some weight on. I also saw her chowing down on her food before I left the room, and she steamed straight into the bread and lactol when I put it in so she's got her appetite back! The adult cinnamon buck is sounding better too, though like the doe he still looks greasy. I'm hoping all that means they've made it through the worst of it and are getting better.


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

Typical repiratory tract infections in mice are caused be bacteria or viruses.








A typical and bad bacterial infection is caused by Mycoplasm. If a stud is really free of respiratory infections, and especially free of Mycoplasm, the only source to get it back is from outside. I use long quarantine for at least 4 weeks for any new mouse in a separate room with separate air flow, and after 4 weeks I put them togther with some of my own mice for another 4 weeks in the separate room.
Although I have between 500 & 700 mice, none of them has a respiratory tract infection. Infections are not "born", they are transferred form other animals or humans. 
When you visit a stud, the first is to listen if there is any sound. Even hundreds of mice are silent during daytime and the only sound should be the sound of sucking babies, but nothing else. If you hear any breathing, it is better to leave without taking a mouse home.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

Kallan said:


> The only real way of getting Myco-free mice is the Specific Pathogen Free mice you gets in labs - they are derived by caesarian section and reared separately to prevent diease transmission.
> ....
> Because Mycoplasmas are fairly resistant and don't sucumb easily to any antibiotic, the infection is rarely ever cleared by treatment, it just goes back to being subclinical again (no clinical signs).


That is true, tetracyclines (eg doxycycline) do not work anymore. Enrofloxacin still works well. I had an infection with mycoplasm in my stud several years ago and cooperated with a veterinarian institute from our goverment. All mice with any (!) symptoms were killed without any exception, and all remaining mice were treated with high doses of enrofloxacin for 10 days. A shorter treatment is not enough. After the treatment no babies were allowed for 12 weeks.
After 1the new generations were born more than 6 months later several healthy young mice from different lines were culled in the institute and examined histologically and immunologically: No antibodies could be found anymore, the stud was cured. I never had a single case again, but it was a tough time, especially to see the mice getting older and older without allowing any babies.

Roland


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