# Very sick little mouse, my little miracle.



## Lizzle

One of my younger mice, named Amica (yes, after the auto-insurance), has diarrhea all over her bottom.. I first noticed that this particular cage of my girls smelled 'poopier' than normal, and I noticed that Amica was hard to rouse.. I gently picked her up and her eyes had that pushed-in, dehydrated look and I found the diarrhea all over her bottom..

I'm sort of freaking out here.  I love this little girl.. I'm about to wipe her bottom (front to back with a different cloth each time I wipe, I know!), but I need to know if this is wet tail and anti-biotics are needed (i would assume for all the girls she lives with as well).

Is there anything I can get over the counter, maybe at Petco or something, rather than waiting to go to the vet? I know how quickly dehydration can kill small mammals. Please and thank you all!


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## Wight Isle Stud

Get some heat on now, and liquids to her, and off to the vet. Most important thing to do as well is pick her cage up and everthing including other mice in there away from all the others. I am afraid the outlook is not good. You should take some deep breaths and think of saving the other stock.


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## zany_toon

Could you try an electrolyte formula or some re-hydration fluids? You would be able to get something like that from a normal pharmacist and I've heard a few people use dioralyte or children's rehydration meds successfully in mice with diarrhoea to keep them hydrated from the loss of fluids. But I would definitely say get her to a vet as soon as you can. Good luck!


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## Lizzle

Oh god.. yes, I have separated her and she is in a warm tissue box now (with food and water). She doesn't appear to have interest in either one and will not take the water even if put up to her mouth. She isn't skinny, however (yet?). I need to find a vet around here (I moved recently) and I'm currently scouring the web..

Thank you zany toon, I'm going to try this idea.. is pedialyte the same thing? I'm assuming it is.


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## zany_toon

I'm honestly not sure if pedialyte is the same! (Different country giving different names to meds and all that.) Alternatively you could use some salt and sugar in the water. If you have cornflour or arrowroot you could make a homemade "pudding" for her (my family and I have used these home made remedies ourselves for years and they've always worked.) It's normally made using:cupful of milk (you'd probably need some puppy or kitten milk), thickened with arrowroot or cornflour. To make it even more fulfilling you can add a little sugar, and the white of a raw egg stirred into it when it is about to be eaten. We normally mix it up so it ends up like a thick, tasteless custard. If you have some rice grains you could heat them in a microwave and put them in an old sock as they will retain the heat longer than a box and put it on one side of the box so that she can move closer to it for heat or move away as she needs to (also means that she doesn't get too hot because the rice really heats up.) I hope you manage to find a vet soon - have to admit that's usually the last thing I think of when I've moved


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## Lizzle

That's a great point about the sock filled with rice - I have heard the same thing but never tried it (it never even dawned on me - right now, I have a cup full of hot water in there).

Thank you for that recipe! I'm really worried it's too late.. however, I was able to almost force-feed her plain yogurt. I put the yogurt on her little face (she did not like that) but then she appeared to eat it and swallow it. The closest vet I found is 43 minutes away (yes, exactly 43, thank you mapquest), and I just called to ask if they treat mice but there was no answer. I don't want to make my poor girl suffer longer via a car ride if it's for nothing. Right now she is resting against the warm cup of water, and I'm going to let her rest a bit longer before trying to feed her again (I don't want her to become exhausted again). She's in that position, though, with her eyes a little closed (they open when I pick her up, though) so I know that she's in pain.. but maybe there is hope.. I'm going to keep calling that vet's number and try to get some kind of kitten milk at the very least. Thank you so much.

Edit -- The skin around her anus is very, very red and swollen.. very poor skin integrity.. I'm keeping her on a lot of tissues to help absorb the moisture and to try to reduce the wetness of her bum. I hope I can save her.. she's an amazing little one.. only about a month old.


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## zany_toon

I just hope that it works for you Liz, I have my fingers crossed that she pulls through. I thought that about one of mine a few weeks ago but she's still here and is running in her wheel so I really hope that she surprises you x


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## Lizzle

Really? That gives me hope, zany toon! I'm sure as hell not giving up until it's clear that she's reached the point of no return. Do you have any idea if I could put something on her bum to reduce the irritation? I was thinking petroleum jelly, but then again, could that clog up her delicate anus? :| I am contemplating whether or not to take a picture of her to show you all how she is, but I don't want to stress her out further. She's the only cream I have ever had. So beautiful and sweet.


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## zany_toon

I've never had to try and put any cream near my mice's bums (because like you I'd be a little worried about it maybe clogging things up down there.) However, I have used something called sudocreme in the UK - it's a nappy rash cream that can be used for a multitude of things (acne, wounds, rashes, allergic reactions,) because it contains a natural antiseptic as well. Way I look at it, if it's safe enough to put on a baby's bum it must be okay to use in really delicate areas otherwise I'm sure a lot of babies would scream in pain and it would surely not be used by mums all over the UK. I'm not sure though what the US equivalent is hun. If you have a nearby pharmacy you could have a word with a pharmacist to see if they have something to be used on a sore bum that your "baby" has as a result of the diarrheoa and you are worried about how sore her bum is from all the wiping


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## Lizzle

Actually, I know Desitin (spelling?) is often used on baby's bums similarly here. I'm going to look that up right now! I'm so afraid that the wetness will cause her bum skin to crack and then the bacteria to get into her bloodstream.. not to mention a ridiculous amount of pain to go along with it. Thank you for that suggestion!!!


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## zany_toon

You're welcome. Hope it works


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## zany_toon

How is she now??


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## Lizzle

She's still alive, unbelievably.. I was certain she would die early yesterday. I nearly culled her a few times, but I just.. couldn't do it. She appears to get 'better' for certain periods of time, then goes back to looking like she's in pain. I've been giving her sugar water, Bene-bac, and plain yogurt via plastic syringe because she will not eat it herself. She is now very thin, but she still cleans herself and expresses an active interest in her environment! I am truly so torn.. I don't want her to suffer, but if there is a chance she can be saved, why not take that chance? She seems 'stable' for lack of better words - her condition hasn't changed at all this past day. I've been putting Hot-Hands in her little container to keep her warm and cozy. Those things last for quite awhile, and seeing as she isn't chewing anything, I'm not worried that she could bite through the material of the Hot-Hands things. I've been keeping an eye on those teeth, too, and I cut them myself about an hour ago after doing an immense amount of research on how to do it without injuring her. I did it perfectly, thank god!


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## zany_toon

Well being stable is something, and if she is still actively interested in her environment even better. I really hope she pulls through, please keep me updated!!!


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## Lizzle

OH MY GOD!!! Just after I wrote that, she actually drank quite a bit of the sugar water ALL ON HER OWN!!!


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## NuttySian

I hope she continues to improve xx


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## Lizzle

Thank you, *NuttySian* !  

It does seem like she's suddenly become slightly more active.. I know I shouldn't get my hopes up too much, as I suspect that her emaciation has caused organ damage by now.. but I'm really not sure..


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## Lizzle

I forgot to add some things - I didn't end up getting the Desitin because there was some sort of warning about zinc oxide overdose on it. Instead, I got pure aloe gel and was using that. Right now, her bum is DRY (thank god) so it should hopefully, hopefully start healing. I felt horrible that it had to be wet.. the choices were either diarrhea wetness or aloe wetness.. so obviously I opted for the aloe.

Anywho, she is grooming herself more now, though she still looks a mess. Her eyes have opened more, so clearly her fluid intake is improving. I think the sugar water really gave her a little boost - I just hope it can last.


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## Lizzle

It's after 2pm and she has taken a severe turn for the worse. I suddenly smell that awful, depressing smell of dying organs.. so I'm putting her to sleep/culling, whichever you prefer to call it. She's slipping off into a nice, warm sleep as she drifts into unconsciousness. Rest in peace, my sweet little girl.

She has been more of a fighter than any mouse or other small animal I've ever had, truly.


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## Kallan

Awww Liz, that's so sad. I was following this thread and had my fingers crossed for both of you


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## NuttySian

I'm so sorry


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## The Boggit keeper

I'm so sorry to hear your sad news  Hugs.xXx


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## Lizzle

Thanks everyone, but I actually have some unbelievable news..

Amica did not end up dying.. in fact, she's *improving.* I have been absolutely dumbfounded for the past couple days.. I can't understand why she didn't pass away after I administered the duragesic. :X I am guessing that it was absorbed extremely slowly because of terribly decreased tissue perfusion.

Honestly, I have no idea how in the world she is getting better, though - yesterday, out of nowhere, she started to eat the dry food I left in there with her. It looked tiring, but she did it! She kept eating and eating and then even drank sugar water all on her own right in front of me.

I am beyond baffled, you guys.

I've been calling her my 'miracle mouse' ever since.. she's not all better, but she's continuing to improve..


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## The Boggit keeper

What fantastic news!    
I don't really know but as an uneducated guess, perhaps as the Duragesic was not properly absorbed it just took her to a low enough level of consciousness to allow her system chance to recover-sort of like an induced coma??
It seems it definitely wasn't her time to go!


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## Lizzle

*The Boggit keeper* -- yes! That's what I'm thinking! Well, that and that the pain was reduced so much that she could actually eat and drink. She never even lost consciousness, though it appeared she came close. It definitely wasn't properly absorbed, as one of those patches could probably put ME in a coma.

It's unbelievable.. her pure liquid diarrhea has actually turned into light brown 'formed' poops, if you know what I mean. Her bum still looks very irritated, but there is no open wound or even infection like I was terribly afraid of. 3 - 5 days is when infection sets in, and tomorrow will be day 5 I think, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Every so often I put a new mug of mildly hot water in there to create steam and heat so her little body stays warm. She loves it! Her eyes now open fully and stick out like they should - so I do believe she is no longer dehydrated (at least not as much as before).

I'm going to take a picture for you all in a bit! She's resting right now with a new hot mug of water, so I'm going to let her relax for now. It's incredible that she still takes an interest in er surroundings now, even though she pretty much looks like hell. She really is my miracle mouse. I'm so glad that what I'm doing is helping her!


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## The Boggit keeper

I'm keeping everything crossed for Amica, you hang on in there too, I know how heartbreaking it can be when you have a sick mousie .xXx


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## NuttySian

:gwavebw Keep going Amica x


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## Lizzle

I am awful at photography for some reason, but here is a picture of her! She kept running all over me (  ) so it was difficult to get a picture of her face, but here's what I got:










Yes, I know she looks pretty awful and even in pain, but this little girl has decided to live anyway. Who am I to try to take that away from her? She hasn't given up!

Thanks so much for the encouragement, everyone!!


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## moustress

You did the best you could and that's all anyone could expect. *hug*


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## Lizzle

*moustress* - She's still alive!


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## Kallan

Is it Duragesic cream or sticky bits? If it was cream you could apply wee bits every day to keep her pain free - might help. Lol, shows the importance of good pain control!

Duragesic is an opioid, and as anyone who has been on opioids can tell you, they're very good at bunging you up! :lol:


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## Lizzle

The sticky stuff.  That's very true, however, I'm afraid that if I do it again, she might actually die when I wasn't intending for her to. :?

It's a strong opiod, I know it.. someone close to me is an addict and she has nearly died twice. She'd chew on the patches, even.. It was disgusting and horrible. I hate opiods since they make me feel like crap and I become so constipated that I think I'm going to perforate right though my colon. LOL.

-- Update on Amica:

I found Amica nearly dead this morning. Her body was cold and barely responsive. I thought that was it.. I warmed her up, though, and she perked up after a while.  Although she is eating again, she does appear a little smaller to me, but that could just be because she got her fur wet (that's why she was so cold..). Still emaciated like before.  I'm continuing to keep her warm and trying to get the heat in my apartment to work, though it doesn't seem to want to.

One thing I noticed last night that bothers me - the tip of Amica's tail has turned darkish in color, when before it was the same color as the rest of her tail. As far as I can tell, it isn't dirty at all nor does she act annoyed if I touch it. I am worrying that it could be necrosis or something from poor circulation.


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## The Village Mousery

As the organs shut down in humans there fingers and toes go dark coz the bodys redirect the blood to the organ to help heal them or the help keep body temp up if it continues down the tail i'm afraid that means theres no going back the tail will die with no blood and if the mouse doesnt die before it the tail will drop off from lack of blood. My nana died like this


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## Lizzle

Good point.  It's just the very tip of the tail, though, and hopefully will remain that way. I was worried that it must have gotten too cold, but the blood redirection makes more sense. Now I am more worried - what if she does continue to improve but the tip of her tail becomes infected and goes into her bloodstream or she develops osteomyelitis (infected bone) or.. Kallan, I wish I had your surgical skills, even if just for a day. Then again, I think it would be too great of a risk. Clearly she already has low blood volume and whatnot, plus being so immunocompromised, etc..

I'm sorry about your nana, Art, that must have been so difficult. The body is amazing though in that it does do this to protect the more important organs.


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## Kallan

It the tail tip is black it is dead already and she won't feel it. If she regains health hopefully it will slough and leave healthy tissue behind which will heal. If it starts to smell you could try getting some antibiotics into her.


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## The Village Mousery

I really hope your mouse gets better watch out for her bloating with water if she starts to look bloated it means her kidneys have failed i'm afraid this could be the next line if she continues down hill, on the other hand if she gets well the tail shouldnt be a problem it will just drop off and as long as you put sudacrem on the wound if one happens shouldnt be infection.


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## The Village Mousery

i've seen this happen in dogs with the black tail tips alot of muppets around here like to DIY dock there dogs horrid practice


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## Lizzle

> It the tail tip is black it is dead already and she won't feel it. If she regains health hopefully it will slough and leave healthy tissue behind which will heal. If it starts to smell you could try getting some antibiotics into her.


Yes, that's what I'm thinking too. I'm going to take a picture and then edit this reply so you can see.



> I really hope your mouse gets better watch out for her bloating with water if she starts to look bloated it means her kidneys have failed i'm afraid this could be the next line if she continues down hill, on the other hand if she gets well the tail shouldnt be a problem it will just drop off and as long as you put sudacrem on the wound if one happens shouldnt be infection.


You are completely right, that is what I'm afraid of.  I know that being emaciated for extended periods of time will cause organ damage, notably in the kidneys and/or liver to begin with. I do not see any 'bloat' or areas that feel 'fatty' or stick out on the abdomen, but I'm trying to keep a very close eye on all this. And that's AWFUL about people docking their dogs themselves! Ugh, those poor doggies! I'd never do that to any creature. Poor things.


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## zany_toon

Is she doing any better tonight Liz? I've only just caught up with what has been going on today. It really does sounds like a miracle that she's still here, she is one determined little mouse.


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## Lizzle

I am sitting here still dumbfounded that she_ is_ still alive! However, there really hasn't been a continuation of improvement today, at all. I mean, she hasn't gotten worse, but she hasn't gotten better and still looks a mess. I am now very worried about the skin integrity around her little mouse poop hole (yes, I sound so mature saying that). Anywho, it's still quite irritated and although there is no poop sticking to it, it appears to be wet half the time. I was hoping that it would begin to heal by now. I've rinsed it with saline water a few times, which she didn't seem to mind at all. I just need her to eat enough to gain more weight, and quickly.  Oh, also I have been keeping her on tissues so that I can monitor her outputs - her pee spots are still yellow (if they were clear, I would suspect kidney damage), so I'm glad about that. Thank you for asking zany toon. 

*Sept. 14th Noted Improvement!*
It's 6:20am and Amica has some noted improvement! The mornings have been the absolute worst for her, but this morning she woke up immediately when I opened the cage and came walking over to me. On examination of her poops, I found that they are actually shaped a lot like pieces of rice now, as they should be. They are formed, yet still soft, and they are becoming a darker brown. The black tip on her tail now feel very dry, and I'm certain it will fall off soon.. but I'm not so worried about that anymore since I know to just put topical antibiotics on when it does. I rinsed off her anal area with warm saline water again and she actually squirmed more than before. The area is still irritated and wet, but there appears to be no change in skin integrity.

Honestly, I'm still on the fence about whether just to cull, though. I would have a long time ago, but it seems like Amica keeps going through these periods of improvement followed by plateauing. I'm going to let her decide what to do, but she already seems pretty bent on living.


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## zany_toon

It sounds like there has been some improvement if she is getting up to meet you when you open her cage again! Still have my fingers crossed (especially seeing as she seems so determined to get better and that's often half the battle) for her. Keep us updated!!


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## Lizzle

She is still quite thin, but this morning I found her washing her face and bum with much more vigor and energy! Not just that, but she has actually gained weight and holds on tighter to me when I pick her up!   

However, I did come across something that utterly shocked me.. I found one of my very healthy (and somewhat tubby) males dead in his cage. Upon inspection, I found that he had the same diarrhea discharge under his tail as Amica appeared to have. But this had to have developed in mere hours, since I checked all of them before I went to bed and they all acted perfectly fine.  Again, this makes me even more mystified by Amica. She's not even two months old or fully grown and is somehow still battling this. :? Obviously, if she continues to improve, I won't be breeding her, but it really makes me wonder about the strength of the litter she was born into. :lol:

But yeah, now I am quarantining every single mouse I have here just to make sure everyone is okay. Honestly, I'm starting to think that there is something in this house/apartment I recently moved into that's causing this. I never had a single sick mouse until I moved here. :?

Update -- I just found a dying deer mouse here in the apartment, on the floor!! :shock: :|


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## The Village Mousery

That could of caused the sick mice, bad wild mousey


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## zany_toon

I'm glad Amica has improved further  Sorry for the loss of your buck though  And I have to agree with Artuntaure, whatever the deer mouse has been ill with could be what has affected your mice


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## Lizzle

I know right? She had no business coming in here when it's lovely outside!

I picked her up with rubber gloves and looked her over - It actually appeared that she died from dehydration. There was no diarrhea-tail or anything, but then again, I'm sure different ailments infect each species differently. :? I feel so bad that this had to happen. And now I really wonder if there are more deer mice that could be sick around here.. it's so odd because I live on the top floor.. I mean, why are they climbing up here and not staying outside where they are farmlands and yummy fruits to eat? :roll:


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## zany_toon

It could even be that the deer mouse is just a carrier to what has affected your mice. With it being regularly exposed to different bugs and bacteria outside it will have built up an immumity to them whereas your own mice may not have come across that bug. If that's the case it can cause numerous mice to be affected but some may be better able to fight it off and others will not be able to fight it off at all.


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## Lizzle

Oh, good point. Actually.. in a way, that seems kind of like a good thing since I'm trying to breed for the strongest and healthiest mice that I can, but it still makes me sad that death has had to happen in one of them, and of course I still wish that there was no illness at all in the first place. :?


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## Rhasputin

make sure that if you feel weak, or sick in the slightest way to see a doctor asap. Just in case the deer mouse was carrying Hanatavirus or something.


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## Lizzle

Hi everyone. Amica died today.

She had seemed so much better this morning and had gained a lot of weight back in the past few days. She was perky and eating and drinking and running all over my arm. I don't know why she died, but I suspect that it's because she had organ damage that occurred during the time period that she was emaciated, although I have been closely monitoring her pees (and poops, for that matter) and it was clear that her kidneys, at least, were in working order.

I went to my classes and came back to find her still warm, all curled up in her little tissue-nest. She looked so relaxed. I'm truly grateful that I was able to make her feel better over this last week. It appears she went very quickly and did not suffer (I see no evidence of suffering, at least). Thank you all for your kind words, it really means a lot to me.


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## Kallan

Awww Liz  That's such a shame. You did so well to get her better again after what she went through - as a vet I'm amazed you got her so far.


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## The Village Mousery

so sad my heart goes out to you hon


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## NuttySian

I'm so sorry xx You did a fantastic job with her.


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## Lizzle

Thanks so much, Kallan.  (That's the closest I can get to a blushing face!)

I meant to mention awhile ago that I did find a vet nearby, but they said it would be 'pointless' to bring her in and try to save her since she was 'only a mouse.' I found that extremely disappointing after having heard great things about this particular animal hospital - then again, I heard great things from dog and cat owners.

Poor little Amica was such a little trooper throughout the whole ordeal. I've never had such a determined pet! And what a lovely, pretty girl she was - my only white splashed cream mouse. She will be missed a lot. 

But I will look at it this way - I am lucky to have been able to have her in the first place. If she hadn't gotten sick, I definitely would have bred her down the road. 

(Thank you Art and NuttySian too!)


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## The Boggit keeper

So sorry to hear your sad news  I feel for you, Hugs. xXx


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## zany_toon

Oh Liz I'm so sorry! You tried everything you could have and she seemed so determined  I'm glad that she didn't appear to be in any pain. Hugs x x


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## Rhasputin

At least she died peacefully, not not the rough death she would have had without your help.


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## Lizzle

Rhasputin, I have to thank you for inspiring me to conduct my own autopsies. I just autopsied one of Amica's brindle brothers - he died extremely suddenly the other day - the whole time, it was MEGACOLON! I'm so glad I autopsied him since I was doing a quarantine of every single mouse because I assumed it was some transmittable illness!

Amica had what looked like the same sort of liquidy diarrhea, and she too may have had megacolon but it didn't kill her for quite awhile. I will be autopsying her another day, though. Anyway, thank god it's not something transmittable!

And thank you for the nice words!


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## Rhasputin

Mega colon! For once, that's good news. I was so worried that that deer mouse you found was transmitting something around in your mouse population!

I'm glad I could be so helpful.  
If you do find another case of mega colon, would you take a photo? I'm trying to compile a lot of images of mouse health problems. I think it will be very helpful in the long run.


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## moustress

What a saga. I'm so sorry for your loss. But you are a smart cookie with doing the autopsies, and I certainly admire your tenacity in caring for the little dear.


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## The Village Mousery

Rhasputin said:


> Mega colon! For once, that's good news. I was so worried that that deer mouse you found was transmitting something around in your mouse population!
> 
> I'm glad I could be so helpful.
> If you do find another case of mega colon, would you take a photo? I'm trying to compile a lot of images of mouse health problems. I think it will be very helpful in the long run.


Yeah must admit i was worryed about the same rhasputin, wild mice carry all sorts. This has made me rethink having a shed as where i live is on the borders of loads of fields i'd be paranoid wild mice got in . So instead of a shed i'm thinking of doing the attic out and making a mouse room instead be warmer for my butt too


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## Lizzle

Aw thanks Moustress! I actually have since autopsied the deer mouse as well (not that I can even identify diseases unless it's kind of smack dab right in my face, like the megacolon!). It seems to me that the deer mouse died from starvation and dehydration. Her peritoneal cavity was literally hollow.. the intestines inside had absolutely nothing in them whatsoever and there was so little blood volume.

Rhasputin - I actually have since been planning to preserve his pelt since he is a lovely one. I started last night using your tutorial, and I'm going to be honest, it was SO much fun. I actually feel strange saying that, since it could kind of be interpreted as me liking things to be dead or something. But I seriously love anatomy that much, hehe.

Art - As much as I love all little furries, I very much agree! I'm definitely paranoid about it. That's actually a cool idea - doing the attic - just make sure it has A/C and all the little meesers don't get too hot. :lol: Oh, and one thing that is odd, actually - I live on the top floor of an old 1800s house - somehow the deer mouse came all the way up here!


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## moustress

Hey, you're not the only one with macabre thoughts about dead rodents; I have long thought it would be kinda cool to stuff my pretty satin meeces when they die and use them for Christmas tree ornaments.

And about meeces getting to the upper story of and old house:They can climb almost anything made of wood, especially if it's not painted. With an old house it would be especially easy. Electrical wiring and stuff like that are like playground equipment for rodents. I am shopping right now for steel wire shelving to replace some of the old stuff in my mousery, as wild ones like to hang out on my cage tops and infest my lovelies with mites. Wild ones used to break into my tanks and mate with my does too. It hasn't happened in a few years as I have learned quite a bit in the process; neither have I had any escapees. Actually, I have had one or two make it onto the floor during feeding times by hanging on the underside of the screen lid or leaping out of my hand. I've gotten very good at playing cat and mouse.


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## The Village Mousery

I live in North east england theres no chance of them over heating pmsl, i'm more worryed about them being popsickle meece. But i'll just put an oil heater up there


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## Lizzle

*moustress* - Honestly, that christmas ornament idea sounds awesome! You could even add little bells and red and green ribbons to the mousies - that would be adorable! :lol:

*Artuntaure* - Aww, but that's much better for the mice than if it were too hot. That is still a great idea too!

Final update ---

Upon autopsy, I have found that every lobe of Amica's lungs are filled entirely with blood. :|


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