# We are Expecting!



## Cordane

This is my first time purposely breeding. I know, breeding pet shop mice, shock! horror! but we don't have feeder mice here, all are pets, and I know the owners and their mice.

This is Mum
















This is Dad. (Excuse the tail, he does that whenever I pick him up)









I have a few goals with breeding. Health and Temperament are a must and I would love to breed light coloured mice with dark eyes.


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## MojoMouse

The mum has a very pretty face, but looks quite young. The male has lovely big eyes! Depending on what they carry, you could have quite a mixed variety sampler litter.


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## Cordane

MojoMouse said:


> The mum has a very pretty face, but looks quite young. The male has lovely big eyes! Depending on what they carry, you could have quite a mixed variety sampler litter.


Sorry about that, the photo of the girl was taken over a month ago now, I just loved the picture. She was about 8-9 weeks when it was taken. The pet store here will not sell any babies that are younger than that so they can make sure they aren't pregnant. 
She, (Zoey) is over 3 months, so still young. The Dad, (Basil) is an old boy, (21 months) and such a sweety.
Zoey's parents were a dark eyed white mouse which I believe to be all spotting and the father had a proper coloured rump. Basil's mum was a piebald agouti and the dad looked like a piebald RY.


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## Frizzle

There really isn't anything wrong with breeding pet shop mice. Everyone has to start somewhere, and they are good hands on practice before you move on to more expensive mice. The way I look at it is that while, yes, you could have something nasty pop up, breeding it out and establishing your own lines can be very fun and rewarding.

Do you have a wheel? If it's too small, it could be causing the weird tail angle on your male. I haven't had any real tail issues *knock on wood* but it could be a hereditary problem. At the very least, 21 months is a good indicator of longevity!


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## Serena

Frizzle said:


> There really isn't anything wrong with breeding pet shop mice. Everyone has to start somewhere, and they are good hands on practice before you move on to more expensive mice. The way I look at it is that while, yes, you could have something nasty pop up, breeding it out and establishing your own lines can be very fun and rewarding.


Well said! I absolutely agree with this.
My mice are from petshop and feeder breeders, but so far it is a lot of fun, even if they are not show quality. It is good experience and I enjoy seeing them grow up and figuring out the genetics (well, I try XD)
and you can't prevent the nasties 100% of the time. Even with breeder mice, there is the slim chance to get a defect, that just hasn't popped up yet. Maybe it is higher in pet shop mice, but then you have to work on getting rid of it.


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## Cordane

Frizzle said:


> There really isn't anything wrong with breeding pet shop mice. Everyone has to start somewhere, and they are good hands on practice before you move on to more expensive mice. The way I look at it is that while, yes, you could have something nasty pop up, breeding it out and establishing your own lines can be very fun and rewarding.
> 
> Do you have a wheel? If it's too small, it could be causing the weird tail angle on your male. I haven't had any real tail issues *knock on wood* but it could be a hereditary problem. At the very least, 21 months is a good indicator of longevity!


Basil is one of my accidental pet shop litters from one store that closed down. I had 8 bucks in that litter. Found them good homes, Basil went to a friend who went to UNI and I adopted him back. Point is, while he was with her, his wheel was super small. I have only recently managed to find another cage that could fit or already had a really good sized wheel. And since he was moved into it, his tail is curled less and less so I'm happy.
I mainly wanted him as the Dad because of how long he has lived, the tail has been his only health problem. Wait, he's 22, almost 23 months. Born in July of 2010. Was looking over records just before.

The reason I want to breed is because I want someone to be doing it right in NZ, there is only one "mousery" and their current "stock" they breed from are all pet shop mice. 
I wish I had access to well bred mice but there is just nothing.

I have the cages/tanks to house most of the babies when they arrive. She has gained 14g since Tuesday. It's rather exciting.


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## Cordane

She is still 4 days away from being 3 weeks pregnant. 








I just found this such a cute picture.


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## Frizzle

When you've got lemons, make lemonade! Or in this case, be the first on the New Zealand mouse breeding frontier That last picture is absolutely adorable, btw. : )


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## Cordane

Frizzle said:


> When you've got lemons, make lemonade! Or in this case, be the first on the New Zealand mouse breeding frontier That last picture is absolutely adorable, btw. : )


I would love to breed seriously. I still don't understand genetic and what with what gives you what. 
Especially about how to improve the mice colouring or type with only pet shop mice available.
I'm still excited!
I hope she doesn't get to much bigger, she gained 5g since I weighed her yesterday.


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## Serena

She's really cute  how heavy is she atm? My last doe almost doubled her weight during pregnancy :shock:


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## Cordane

Serena said:


> She's really cute  how heavy is she atm? My last doe almost doubled her weight during pregnancy :shock:


She was 27g when became pregnant, she was last weighed to be 47g. She didn't really gain much weight untill 1 and a half weeks pregnant, maybe 2 weeks.


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## MojoMouse

I was thinking about your earlier comment about no feeder mice sold in petshops, then I remembered that New Zealand doesn't have any snakes. How nice that petshops sell mice that are _really_ mean't as pets. 

Even though there are a few fancy breeders here, we (in Australia) are in the same boat as you because we don't have show type mice. We're doing the best we can with what are essentially pet type mice. Take heart because progress is being made! It will take a LONG time before we have anything typey like the Europeans, but you can see the difference in a line that's been selectively bred for over 12 generations compared to what was started with.

If you want to read up on genetics, one of the best places is the Finnmouse site. It's excellent for genetics. Just keep in mind that like Australia, New Zealand may not have many of the genes that the OS breeders have.

I can hardly wait until your litter comes!


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## Cordane

It's actually really lovely to have no snakes, the pet shops are more concerned about the animals health because they are sold as pets. Their knowledge is limited but since the pet shop owners near me have gotten to know me well, they trust me to help them out with their mice if they ever need it.
One mouse I would love to breed from is my girl Xia, (piebald black) she has the biggest ears I've seen on a mouse in NZ. Her lines that are known go back about 6 generations or so and they are all piebald black. 
I don't know what outcomes I would get from breeding her with what boys though.

Heck, I don't even know what my Zoey will give but I'm excited. Tuesday is 19 days, I'm getting impatient haha. I love the boy she has been put to.
I will definitely be posting lots of pictures when they arrive 
I'm actually really happy to have found a mouse forum that is more accepting of people breeding pet shop mice. It seems to be rather frowned upon.


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## MojoMouse

Well, the thing is that you'll get surprises with the litter. Who knows what will pop up.  It's kind of different to the OS breeders who have lines so pure that they know almost to a certainty what they will get, bar the rare mutation. With your breeding, there will be a discovery period, then you'll see progress as you work toward certain varieties.

What are the colours/varieties that you like?

Xia will be interesting - if you can get lovely big ears locked into your lines early on, I'll have to scoot across the Tasman and mousenap one from you.


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## Cordane

I'll see if I can get a half decent picture tomorrow. Bear in mind that her ears aren't as big as the show type mice overseas.
For a while, I still do, have a thing for lightly colored mice with dark eyes. Like Zoey and Basil.
The thig I hate is that there are very few varieties around. The Rex's are adorable but I have never ever seen one. I always like to be different from what every one else has but how can I get different when all that is available here is the same?

So, back to varieties..
Yeah ok, i would love to eventually breed a self colored anything. A mouse one solid colour. One day.


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## doganddisc

Cordane said:


> So, back to varieties..
> Yeah ok, i would love to eventually breed a self colored anything. A mouse one solid colour. One day.


I am a big sucker for solid colored mice!

Good luck on the litter


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## Cordane

So am I, however that could be because te only solid colour mice I have seen were beige. I have never seen any other selfs, closest I get nowadays (the pet store that breed the beiges closed down) is a fox of sorts (black tan with both dilutions)


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## Cordane

So this is the girl I was talking about. After looking at her pictures, they aren't that big, they are just "longer" than the rest of my girls ears.
























Her bum, she has long white hairs 








And a cleaning picture, I found it cute


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## Cordane

Guess what?!
She had her babies! They are so little. I get all shaky when I pick them up. She had 9 babies. The ones I checked I'm pretty sure are girlies. I had to cull one though. It's foot was blue and twisted, poor thing.
8 babies, all full milk bellies


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## Seafolly

Happy birthday little babies! It's sad, mine are only 11 days old and I'm already jealous of new litters.


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## Cordane

I'm so scared I'm going to break them. I hope Zoey Doesn't kill any because I touched them. *sigh*
And I'm not even the mum and I'm nervous.
Hopefully they are mostly girls. 
I don't think I'll cull any more until I can really sex them. Well, more until I can actually control my nerves about picking them up. Unless I have to obviously.


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## Cordane

Baby Pictures


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## thewesterngate

I love seeing a pile of pink with white bellies.  Congratulations!


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## Cordane

thewesterngate said:


> I love seeing a pile of pink with white bellies.  Congratulations!


I couldn't spot any being smaller than the rest. Yay!
And thank you


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## Cordane

I only took pictures of 3 of them, they were so squirmy today. I've gotten so much less shakey handling them already which I think is good.
Mumma is doing a good job 
Not the best pictures, Its ok if you can't sex the 3, I'm just curious.


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## MojoMouse

Congratulations on the litter!  So exciting for you. 

Sorry I can't help with the sexing with the pics - they're a bit too blurry, and I usually can't tell acurately until they're a few days old. More experienced breeders may be able to help though.


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## Cordane

MojoMouse said:


> Congratulations on the litter!  So exciting for you.
> 
> Sorry I can't help with the sexing with the pics - they're a bit too blurry, and I usually can't tell acurately until they're a few days old. More experienced breeders may be able to help though.


Its ok, I'm happy to wait til they are a week old so I can be certain of gender. I hope I have a few girls or even mostly girls


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## Cordane

The babies are starting to show slight pigments already. Dark coloured patches


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## Seafolly

I'm having a tough time with the second photo but if I had to guess I'd say female, female, male.


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## Cordane

Seafolly said:


> I'm having a tough time with the second photo but if I had to guess I'd say female, female, male.


Yes, I was pretty sure the first was female and the last was male. I think I have about half and half or close to it. I'm happy with those numbers at least. And when they are old enough to wean, I will put another girl with a buck.  (Xia with Foxy)


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## Cordane

As I said, pigments have come through a lot.
They range from nothing..








To a lot








And of course. Bum pictures.
Girls
























Boys
















and 3 I'm unsure of..








I think its a girl.








Boys?








Hopefully a girl?


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## Velvet_Meece

3 your unsure of i would say top ones boy, bottom ones a girl and middle is a bit blurry to see, possibly another boy but can't say for sure.


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## Cordane

Velvet_Meece said:


> 3 your unsure of i would say top ones boy, bottom ones a girl and middle is a bit blurry to see, possibly another boy but can't say for sure.


Thank you. That's not bad at all. Half and half. I like those numbers.


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## Frizzle

^^^
I thought the same as Velvet. Now the excitement of waiting for fur!


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## Cordane

I can't wait 
It's only day 3. *sigh*


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## AyJay658

I love these day by day posts of babies. They make me really want my own again though. I have to wait a whole year before that's possible again =(


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## Cordane

AyJay658 said:


> I love these day by day posts of babies. They make me really want my own again though. I have to wait a whole year before that's possible again =(


A whole year? Why?
There will be more photos today when I actually decide its not to cold to get out of bed and get the stuff I need to do in town done. Yay shopping!
I'll be putting my girl Xia with Foxy once these babies are weaned. I don't like the idea of having heaps of babies at once.. I might do that sooner though because I really want a self black or a black tan. I'm an impatient person.


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## AyJay658

I am at university. I had mice here with me last term but my land lord changed his mind about pets (even though I asked him before I bought them. grumble grumble) so they had to go to my house at home. I am on placement down by my parents next year so they have to stay there for a year and theres no way i will be allowed to breed them. Got written permission from my next uni house that I can have pets though! =D So might very well have a litter there. 
I am impatient too. If I want something, I want it immediately and I cannot wait! If I get something in my head, I get it sorted out asap lol. When I decided I wanted mice again it took two weeks before I had them. Looking forward to seeing the fur coming in on your bubs =D


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## Cordane

AyJay658 said:


> I am at university. I had mice here with me last term but my land lord changed his mind about pets (even though I asked him before I bought them. grumble grumble) so they had to go to my house at home. I am on placement down by my parents next year so they have to stay there for a year and theres no way i will be allowed to breed them. Got written permission from my next uni house that I can have pets though! =D So might very well have a litter there.
> I am impatient too. If I want something, I want it immediately and I cannot wait! If I get something in my head, I get it sorted out asap lol. When I decided I wanted mice again it took two weeks before I had them. Looking forward to seeing the fur coming in on your bubs =D


I know what that's like.
When I first got mice, I saw this cool cage, never thought about getting mice til then. Rang Dad up at work that day, while I was at the store, begged, he said yes. I walked away with a cage and 3 mice that day. That was 3 years ago. 
That's what I don't want to go to UNI. I can't take any animals. I've never been without them.


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## AyJay658

Exactly how I was before I came =( But I am doing an animal degree so I get to see animals quite a lot still. Animals are a massive part of my life despite not being with me! =)


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## Seafolly

University's when I really took charge, haha. I acquired my beloved cat, fostered a rat litter, and generally surrounded myself with animals.  That said, in Ontario it's illegal for landlords to refuse pets. They can make life hard for you but they can't say no.


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## Cordane

Seafolly said:


> University's when I really took charge, haha. I acquired my beloved cat, fostered a rat litter, and generally surrounded myself with animals.  That said, in Ontario it's illegal for landlords to refuse pets. They can make life hard for you but they can't say no.


Lucky you. Landlords generally say "One animal only" or "no animals" so I'm kind of screwed. Multiple mice and cats. Hmmmm..


AyJay658 said:


> Exactly how I was before I came =( But I am doing an animal degree so I get to see animals quite a lot still. Animals are a massive part of my life despite not being with me! =)


I want to do an animal degree. To be a vet for small animals like mice, rabbits, guinea pigs etc. No-one really deals with them. They have the basic knowledge but thats bugger all.


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## Cordane

Babies and their pigments


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## Seafolly

Cordane said:


> Lucky you. Landlords generally say "One animal only" or "no animals" so I'm kind of screwed. Multiple mice and cats. Hmmmm..


Well the first landlord I had verbally said no pets but it was pretty easy to hide all the furry tenants. I only have one cat though.  Mice are certainly a temptation for her but she knows to back off. I wouldn't trust her if left alone with them though. She was raised with rats and couldn't care less about them - they don't dart so she literally sleeps while they climb on her.

Random question: these babies look pretty wrinkly. Is that just the light? I've only had one litter but these guys seem different somehow.


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## Cordane

I was wondering about that. They all have full bullies every time I check on them. I changed the lighting on it to see the patterns better so it could be the light.
My other litter was like that too..


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## MojoMouse

They're not super chubby, but see how they go. Sometimes mice are just a bit leaner than others - maybe a genetic thing, but they can be just as healthy and long lived as their fatso cousins. It's nice to see the pigment showing - fur soon!

The pet thing in rental properties can be such a pest - in inner Sydney, in spite of how much evidence their is that pets are good for people's mental and physical health, there are still only a few apartment buildings that allow pets, even small ones.

I rented for years, and I am the master of disguising pets as furniture during property inspections. A cat makes a nice fluffy cushion if arranged cunningly (and warned to keep VERY still), and mice - well, their enclosures are easy to hide - just a cover and presto, what a nice storage container!

I've got my own place now, and it's a rare pet friendly building. Much better! I'm active in a small lobby group in Sydney that is working toward changing the ridiculous pet ownership laws. You can understand why you shouldn't keep big animals, or noisy animals in an apartment, for their health and also the neighbours are entiltled to live without constand barking etc. But small, quiet desexed female indoor cats? And tiny mouslings??? What's the problem? Sheesh.


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## Cordane

I know, I would only bring some mice and my cat Luca (desexed male). They aren't noisy at all. Mind you, I wouldn't move out unless I was able to take Luca with me.
Yeah, the babies aren't nice and round like I would prefer but mumma is still holding her weight and babies still have full milk bellies. I'm not sure what I can do to help that. Maybe it's because she is young. I think she is 4 months now. Maybe less. Over 3 months though. 
I was looking At the pet shop pinkies, they were leaner as well. I can't feel bones on them so that's good.


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## PPVallhunds

i like the markings on number 7, cant wate to see it in the fur lol


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## Cordane

PPVallhunds said:


> i like the markings on number 7, cant wate to see it in the fur lol


I'm so excited for that. When does it usually come through? I have read sites that say a week, one that says 5 days etc.
If any have good markings and hopefully big eyes, I might keep one.


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## Frizzle

They do look a little on the lean side. 5 and 6 look the fattest, are they males by chance? I think 3 is going to be interesting, it's pigment areas are so less well definied, though it could just be a developmental difference.

I'm at college too, and have been keeping my mice in the basement since spring break (keeping in general since October). My current (new) landlord said caged pets are fine, but I don't think he knows the degree to my cageing... The new basement doesn't have as good of ventalation, I'm worried I'm going to have to downgrade my mousing scale because of how fast the smell builds. I knoticed that my water bottle's may be leaking, so it may be time for a brand switch. I bought a little air-filter for the time being, so lets see how it goes.


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## Cordane

I'm not actually sure if they are boys. I know the 2 with the most pigment are boys. 
I think next time I will cull the litter to 6. See how that goes I just find it odd because I never see her out of the house other than for a quick eat and drink. And they have always been on the lean side.
Should I be concerned?


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## AyJay658

Unfortunately my landlord works in a garage on the same site as my house (Its an old family house and business inherited by him). So he is regularly around and I cant get away with anything. He decided to inspect my room without warning one day while I was at uni (illegal I know. I considered taking him to court but my student housing advisor said not to bother) and he told me I had too many mice and the smell was too bad so they had to go =(

P.S sorry for spamming your post Cordane! I wish I had some advice but I am very inexperienced =L


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## MojoMouse

I think you should keep an eye on them, but there's no reason to be concerned yet. I've had litters when the bubs look a bit lean for the first couple of days, especially with a first time mum, then once she gets the hang of it, they plump up and develop normally. If they have good milk bellies, then they're getting fed. 

All you can really do is make sure the mum has access to as much nutritious food as she wants. I sometimes give the mum a bit of soy milk as a supplement. They like it, and it helps keep their calorie and protein intake up while they're lactating.

If there's a problem you'll find out soon enough. Hopefully all's well, and they'll plump up and fur up nicely in the next few days.


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## Cordane

So I weighed them today. They are a bit lean but my girls kicked ass.
4 boys. 4 girls.
Girls weights are 3g, 3g, 3.2g, 3.3g
Boys are... 2.8g, 2.8g, 2.9g and 3g


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## Cordane

Day 4 Baby pictures.
These are the girls, The 4th one is the heaviest, (3.3) the 1st and 3rd being lightest, (3g) out of the girls.
































These are the boys. The 4th being heaviest, (3.1) and the 1st and 3rd being lightest, (2.8) out of the boys


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## Frizzle

Did you have any preferences for what you're looking for in the males? If they all have the same pigment (probably same color), I would start by culling two of those (the 2.8s), leaving you with a minimally marked one and one that has a more even distribution.


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## Cordane

Frizzle said:


> Did you have any preferences for what you're looking for in the males? If they all have the same pigment (probably same color), I would start by culling two of those (the 2.8s), leaving you with a minimally marked one and one that has a more even distribution.


I was thinking about culling those two. No preference colour wise. It was more a test breed. 
I just don't know how to cull them.. I can't do force, I hesitate to much. Is the freezer still ok at this age?


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## MojoMouse

I agree with Frizzle. I'd even go one step further and suggest keeping just the biggest boy with evenly distributed markings. I can't help with your question though - what about asking in the culling forum? You'll get suggestions and a lot of support for what you decide to do.


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## Cordane

So I got rid of the 2 boys. I'll see if they fatten up and if they don't, well.. We shall see.


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## AyJay658

Do we get to see any more pictures today? =D


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## Cordane

AyJay658 said:


> Do we get to see any more pictures today? =D


Of course you do! That almost seems like a silly question to me now. Today is day 5. They look HEAPS better. Gained a lot of weight, less wrinkley and they look like they are covered in dandruff, THE FUR IS ON ITS WAY!

































































These are the 4 girls. I'm excited to see number 3's colour/coat when it comes through. The little dot is adorable.
Their weights are in order of the photos. 4g, 3.7g, 3.7g, 4g


































The boys. Weights are 3.8g and 3.9g


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## AyJay658

I love the little mask on girl one! And you are right. That little dot on girl three is so cute =D


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## Cordane

I hope I dont get soooooo tempted to keep one. I already have 2 boys and 6 girls though one I may plan to sell. 
How long till the fur comes through? I'm so excited now


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## AyJay658

I would want girl 1 or 3 I think =P I ended up keeping 6 babies when I had them! Out of 21. Its incredible how fast it is. They can go from pigment like they are now to furry overnight. I would say tomorrow or the next day the fur will be showing! =D


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## MojoMouse

They are looking much better!  Only a couple more sleeps and they will be furring up nicely. Their markings look wonderful - they're going to be such cute mice!


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## Cordane

That's what I was thinking. I'm curious about girl 2 though. She is much lighter than all of them even her pink skin is lighter. 
Luckily I have plenty of tanks and cages. I have two tanks which are about 760mm by 450mm, a 10 gallon, 2 cages the size of a 10 gallon, 2 cages bigger than a 10 gallon (600mm by 400mm). Then I have a few cages about 2/3 of the 10 gallon and I also have 3 converted storage container cages.
And to think, I've only actually purchased the 3 tanks. The rest were given to me or we already had at home (storage containers).

Dad says the amount is ridiculous but hey, always prepared 

Thanks Mojo. Many of them have gained a gram over night, less wrinkly. I'm glad I dropped the numbers. 6 seems like a good number.
I seriously can't wait till their fur comes in, I have no idea what colours to expect..


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## AyJay658

Its possible she is just paler because her fur is white and the others are darker. Have you seen the day by day photos on thefunmouse.com? That gives you a good idea of what to expect but it will ruin the surprise! =P Cant wait to see them tomorrow and see the difference =D


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## Cordane

Yes I have. I was curious because both mum and dad are piebald so I automatically assume they will be white with some other colour.
It's so exciting. There will probably be new pictures in less than 12 hours


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## AyJay658

Yes it must be pretty late where you are! Or early as the case may be! I cant wait =D I will be asleep in 12 hours though =P I was wondering about the rump colour on some of them and then saw their mum has the same =) I love the way even the markings get passed on to the babies.


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## Cordane

AyJay658 said:


> Yes it must be pretty late where you are! Or early as the case may be! I cant wait =D I will be asleep in 12 hours though =P I was wondering about the rump colour on some of them and then saw their mum has the same =) I love the way even the markings get passed on to the babies.


Ugh yeah, it's almost 1am. I'm sick with the flu so everything aches and I just can't sleep. Luca won't leave my side.
I was wondering if the rump colouring would be passed in because mum isn't a colored rump girl, just odd spotting. I can't wait to see the variation in colour and if any got Basils big eyes or long (ish) coat.


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## AyJay658

Oh im sorry you are ill! Hope you feel better soon. I cant sleep to save my life lately. Its exam period so stress, stress, stress! Bless him =) You have a lovely cat. I would love to see some photos of him if you have posted any? Well even my pied does passed on the same markings to some of their babies. Same distribution and places and everything. So it is possible that's why they have colour on their rumps! Oooo this is the most exciting part I think. And then their eyes opening, that's awesome. They are ever so cute in popcorn stage but such a pain!! Mine managed to hop out of a box about half a metre high!


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## Cordane

I think I may have posted some pictures of him under the other pets thing. Not sure. He steals my pillow though.. Or I wake up to find his paws and body wrapped around my head..
Exams? I always hated them, especially during high school, the ones I did the best in we're the ones a week after my car crash and I had a brain injury. Weird huh?
I wonder if the Dads parents colouring may. One through, probably not but you never know. I'm glad mine are only 5 days old. Hopefully they won't be to bad during the flea stage..


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## AyJay658

I will have a look. Haha its only because he wants to be close to you XD Yep they are annoying me now. I have 4 left out of 7 but the day after my last exam I am going to Turkey on holiday with my boyfriend. So that adds even more stress because I have to pack to move out and back home during my exams!

Oh dear that is weird. My dad recently had a motorbike accident and his brain hasn't recovered. He has some very mild brain damage I think. He cant remember stuff that should be ingrained into his head, like some peoples names, or how old he is or where he parked his van! Have you recovered from it?

I hope so too. I was so worried I was going to lose one. Ohh I want some babies too!


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## Cordane

You'll do great in your last exams. Turkey?! I've never left New Zealand. Been everywhere in it, been on 96 planes but never once out of NZ.
Luckily i recovered, it was back in 2009. I still have a fear of corners on gravel roads and I can't remember my crash, only what everyone has said. Turns out the doctor who looked after me then was the same doctor who put my arm in a cast when I was 6 years old. He remembered me! 
For about a year after my crash, I was very tired, had to leave school for it because I didn't have the amount of attendance they wanted. Not being able to remember the simple things is common, I couldn't remember my DOB for a year and even now I still have to think about it before hand.
When I had an accidental litter and they went through the flea stage, I just didn't handle them, I had no idea what I was doing then though..


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## AyJay658

Thank you =) Yes I have a very generous boyfriend! Haha. It was sort of a Christmas present and I am soooo excited!! Only 12 days to go! Wow! 96 planes?! I think I have been on about 16.

Glad you have recovered! Must be frightening not remembering it though. I struggle to remember my age anyway but I think thats just because I am silly =P I wonder why age and birthday is the thing people forget? Its one of the first things they learn so quite bizarre.

How many litters have you had? I really hope to get another couple of mice soon =D


----------



## Cordane

Long story short.. Parents divorced when I was 3 or something, when I was 6-7 my mum moved down to the bottom of the south island (dad lives in the top of the north). It took 3 planes to get there, 3 planes back, 4 times a year, for 4 years. Plus a few extras when mum decided she still lived my dad. My family is weird.
After my crash, my mum arrived like an hour or so later, rang someone and handed me the phone. They asked my name, then my DOB and I felt so helpless, I just handed mum the phone and went to the mirror in the bathroom because everyone said I had two huge bumps in my head. Front and top. (the car flipped).
Anyway...
Uhhh litters.. I have had 4.
3 accidental. My first mice, I brought two does home, a week later there were babies but I never thought to check because I knew they were both does and neither had Become fat so when I cleaned their cage, I chucked out te bedding a babies. I felt horrible for weeks after because Dad spotted them the next day, dead in the garden.
The next one was another pregnant buy, she had 8 babies, all boys and I failed to separate them at the right time so she became pregnant again and had one little boy.

I have learnt a lot since then.


----------



## AyJay658

Wow sounds almost as complicated as mine! I am sorry you had a messed up childhood too! It isn't easy is it. My dad left my mum for another woman when I was three, she lived in Norway so he moved there. I saw him a couple times a year until her, him and her children moved back to england! Then my mum remarried a man with 4 children and my dad divorced the other woman. They moved back to norway, my dad got together with a woman who had a son and they had a son together, then they split up about a year ago and now hes engaged to a woman with two kids. So I have had...*counts*...2 step sisters, 6 step brothers, 1 half brother, 1 sort of brother by relationship, 1 full blood brother and will soon (maybe) have another brother and sister. Then there are all the mother and father figures =S Christmas is complicated...I think its quite an achievement on my mums part that I am remotely sane! 
Ohhh thats sad =( But you weren't to know. Just one baby? Bless. 
Of course you have. Thats how you learn =)


----------



## Cordane

My mum is no remarried to a guy who is 60. (my mum is only 40. She goes for older guys each time. I've never seen my mum single. I'm gladcim not the only one with a weird childhood. 
And yes, just one. A boy. She passed away not long after though


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## AyJay658

Each to their own eh! Yeh my dad is never single either. He usually ends up with the relationships somewhat overlapping...Not exactly proud of him =L 
Aww that is sad =( I do like surprise litters. We actually met the dad of the three pregnant does we got. I THINK he was a satin dove. We only spent a few minutes with him before I flagged up that he was a male. We had to take him back which is such a shame because he was GORGEOUS. After this litter who are you planning to breed?


----------



## Cordane

I wish we had satin here, never seen it. Obviously that doesn't mean we don't have it but hey.
Next will be Xia (piebald black) with Fox (coffee fox). I'm hoping for blank tabs and self blacks. I'm also hoping for bigger ears. Xia's ears are big but need improvement.


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## AyJay658

I love satin =D I have two satin does. One ivory and one pied argente (she is like gold =D). I saw a black tan in the pet shop the other day and it was gorgeous so I approve! Breeding to standards must be so rewarding. Would be great to try it one day.


----------



## Cordane

I honestly don't know how I'm going to do it. Im just going to work on one thing at a time. Sorta. Breeding to basil gives me big eyes, breeding Xia gives big ears. But I want a self or three so Xia to fox it is.
I just adore satins.


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## Cordane

No fur yet. They do have the beginnings of it. A very thin fuz that you can hardly see. *sigh* I was looking forward to waking up to furred babies. Here's pictures  Day 6
The Boys..








































Their weights are good, 4.4g each.

Here's the Girls








































































Their weights are 4.3g, 4.6g, 4.4g, 4.6g


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## AyJay658

Awww I am sorry if I got your hopes up! Tomorrow hey =) I want to squish them!! In a nice way =P On girl 4 you can see long hairs coming out of her back =D In the patch of light =)


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## Cordane

AyJay658 said:


> Awww I am sorry if I got your hopes up! Tomorrow hey =) I want to squish them!! In a nice way =P On girl 4 you can see long hairs coming out of her back =D In the patch of light =)


Now I'm excited for tomorrow. Super excited. I just want to know what exact colours they will be. The one with the mask has a bum spot. I'm interested in the first boy. Other than his coloured rump, his spots are even but I still really like the girl with the spot on her back. 
Some should have a long ish coat like their Daddy does


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## AyJay658

Hehe I would bet I am almost as excited as you are!! Its the next best thing to seeing my own bubs grow up! =P They all have really interesting markings. I like mask-face best =P I like the way girl two has colour all over her back but it just stops at her shoulders. What do you think their base colours will be?


----------



## Cordane

AyJay658 said:


> Hehe I would bet I am almost as excited as you are!! Its the next best thing to seeing my own bubs grow up! =P They all have really interesting markings. I like mask-face best =P I like the way girl two has colour all over her back but it just stops at her shoulders. What do you think their base colours will be?


I have absolutely no idea. I'm not really even sure what colour Dad is or even what colour to class Mum as.


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## AyJay658

Some of them look like they have brown patches where as others look black or blue. But I dunno about the underneath of it!


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## Cordane

Well Basils mum was agouti, and his dad was a fawny colour. Both piebald. The Brothers were agouti, blacks, fawny colour. Basil was the only one his colour.
So they could be anything!


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## AyJay658

I am afraid I am not really the person to ask! He might be merle or roan but that is really just a guess. The doe I think is a chocolate and white pied.


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## Cordane

Many people say he is a diluted brindle but who knows. He is a cute little fluff ball. Shy though. I'm excited. So very excited.


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## AyJay658

Probably that then =L I don't blame you =D


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## Cordane

They are getting so chubbly. I want them to get fur so I can do a photo shoot


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## AyJay658

Do you have a set up? =) How are you feeling today by the way?


----------



## Cordane

No set up. I don't even know where to begin.
Feeling horrible. Definitely the flu.


----------



## Cordane

Plus side of the day, babies are looking healthy and.. Shiny


----------



## AyJay658

Oh I am sorry you are still feeling rough =( Shiny? In what way? It was about now you could tell 3 of mine were satin. But I don't want to get you excited =P


----------



## Cordane

AyJay658 said:


> Oh I am sorry you are still feeling rough =( Shiny? In what way? It was about now you could tell 3 of mine were satin. But I don't want to get you excited =P


I highly doubt they are satins. I don't know of any in the background. Their skin, when the light is on them, shines a little. Reflects it well. I don't know how to explain it.


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## AyJay658

Well its probably just the fur coming through. Its very fine when they are just growing it. Hopefully see some fur when you wake up!! =D


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## Cordane

That's the hope. I would love to see that. I'm tempted to check now but I won't, I'll wait until a normal humans wake up time. I seem to handle them at 10am and 4pm. That's the routine so 3am is way out of wack for Mumma.


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## AyJay658

Thats 11pm for me then =P Haha yeh get your rest! You will recover slower without it.


----------



## Cordane

Oh my sleeping pattern has always sucked. Just like my Dads. I do hope the have some sort of coat when I check, I want to know what colours they are. Gosh I'm so impatient.


----------



## AyJay658

Hehe so do I =) I was shocked when I saw how quickly it happened. Was like, what??


----------



## Cordane

I know right? It's so quick. Earlier today I thought I saw a half furred baby but it turns out it was just the light *sigh*


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## AyJay658

Awww shame. Not long now though!


----------



## Cordane

Woo! Slight coat! I'm happy. You can see colours now and I have an unexpected one..
























































Girl 2 is my unexpected one. She is a fawny/tan colour. I'm a bit surprised. 


































If I keep any it will be Boy 2 or Girl 2.
Though I am leaning towards breeding foxes/black tans and selfs.


----------



## AyJay658

Yay! My sleeping regime now revolves around your babies =L I just had to see them before bed. Girl 1, 2 and boy 2 look like tri-colours! Is it just me? I love boy 2. He is super cute. I love eye patches. I also like that girl two doesn't have any colour on her face, just cow spots on her back!


----------



## Laigaie

How very interesting! They look almost brindled, with the orangey bits and the darker bits. Since they're so high-white, it's hard to tell.


----------



## Cordane

I was wondering why in heck you were still awake. Don't worry, tomorrows pictures will be taken earlier. And hopefully my camera will be nice and actually charge while on the charger. *sigh* I did notice they had different coloured spots. Boy 2 has darker spots on his face and girl 2 has a darker bum. One thing I do love about them is many of them seem to have "points". Colour on the bum and darker paws. Its cute. I can't wait till they get proper fur. The aren't squirmy either. They crawl onto your hand and then just sit there 

I though there was a chance in of a brindle. People have said they Dad is a possible diluted brindle.


----------



## AyJay658

I am a baby mouse stalker that's all. Aww thats sweet =) I want something furry to cuddle =( Its very possible! That would be a nice surprise if they were =D


----------



## Seafolly

Don't wish for time to pass, haha. I left for a three day weekend out of the city (photoshoot and things) and came back to mini-mice! This is the best stage - the anticipation and wondering!


----------



## Cordane

Oh the anticipation an wondering I the best, I agree but I have a tendency to get impatient. But I did love the pinky stage.


----------



## Cordane

There is two photos of each baby 










































































































I think this baby may be a tri. The spots are different shades.. It will be interesting.


----------



## MojoMouse

I love your creative photography!  Mouse baby blossoms. They're coming on well now. It will be amazing if you have some tris there. Lucky you!


----------



## Cordane

If he does turn out to be a tri, I will definitely be keeping him. I'm always worried I'm going to end up with to many mice. Just out of curiousity, what do you do with mice that you have finished breeding? Keep them or adopt them out?

Thank you 
I've been trying to figure out what other origami props I could make for a photo shoot. Something they can sit in. I thought a ring box would be cute but they aren't easy. 
I'm super happy with how the pictures turned out and I'm happy with the babies two. There are only two that I like though. I should really figure out what I plan to breed specifically.


----------



## MojoMouse

I keep a colony of retired girls that I've bred. As I'm not a large scale breeder, I can manage this, and I enjoy having them. 

I think some origami structures that they could climb on would make great pic props. Also, I still think little paper mice would be cute, with real mice posing with them. If you folded them really well, I'm sure it would be hard to pic the real mice from the paper ones! :lol: (Joking with that comment, of course!)


----------



## Cordane

I would love to be able to fold that well. 
http://www.google.co.nz/search?tbm=isch ... ih=356#i=4 <---- not easy to fold, I'm scared to attempt it. Haha. Since I'm still sick I'll probably be folding again tomorrow.

I was thinking about having a tank that is for retirees when I get that far. I have a tank that is 30" by 16", I have two that size actually. I have no idea what to put in them though :/
How many do you think I could house in a tank that size?
I don't even know what to use for bedding, I have always used news paper but I don't know what else I could use. There isn't much around here.


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## AyJay658

I couldnt see the link =( You fold really well =)

Thats a pretty big tank so I personally would say...maybe 4-6? I am sure a lot of the breeders would say more than that though =) I use woodshavings, carefresh, you can use megazorb, paper based beddings like shredded cardboard, newspaper is fine. I use either woodshavings or carefresh for the floor and then put shredded newspaper in for bedding. They like something to root around in so thats top priority for me but different beddings have different levels of odor control, absorbancy etc etc

I thought several of the babies were tri colours from the last pics cuz they have patches of fawny colour in with the grey. But that may make them brindle I dont know!


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## Cordane

Darn.. Well it was a 3D origami mouse. Any animal that is 3D is difficult. Currently that tank houses 3 females but two are picking on one of them. They are all the same size and the one they pick on was introduced a month ago. I will probably transfer the two "bullies" to the 10 gallon tank once the babies are weaned and see if momma gets along with the one who was picked on. If they do then Nova and Ava will be introduced to them and I'll try introduce the bullies back maybe. Assuming they all got along I would house 6 in the tank.
I would more lean towards brindle because neither parents are tri but I suppose tri is always a possibility somehow.
We don't have many bedding stuff here. I usually put a few sheets of news paper on the floor of the cage/tank and then. Bunch of shredded paper. Within a few days, the sheets of newspaper are gone and they cage stinks.i swear sometimes that my boys smell less than my girls.


----------



## AyJay658

When I introduced my two old girls to my 4 keeper babies, one of the older ones would not stop biting the others. Specifically one of the littlest ones but she would have a go at all 4 of the babies. I noticed it was around the wooden objects that she would suddenly lose it and I thought maybe it was because her scent didn't wash off when I cleaned them out. So I covered them in vanilla essence and put them back together and there was no issue after that! I was worried because she had drawn blood from the base of the little ones tail. So is there anything that might still smell of the other two but not the one getting picked on? Could try what I did and see if it helps. Do they fight when in the clean out box?

Yeh I can imagine the newspaper doesnt absorb much of the smell..Do you not have woodshavings?


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## Cordane

Nope. Nothing could smell of just those two. I only recently introduced wooden things to their home, before it was all plastic (they would get wlillow branches to chew on which I replace every week.
The only time they "bicker" is at night, I wake up to the girl squeaking. No blood has been drawn though. It's only at night. It's weird and I feel sorry for her. I'm starting to wonder if her head swaying is due to stress. She has been checked by a vet for ear infections etc. she never swayed during QT, only once she was introduced to the two other girls.

Nope, don't use wood shavings. I haven't really ever seen them in the stores to be honest. I guess I just preferred newspaper because it was free.


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## AyJay658

Hmm I haven't a clue then. By now they should have established a hierarchy. Its fairly normal for it to be at night as this is when they are most awake. It is possible its because of that. Poor love. Maybe she will get on better with your mummy mouse instead as you say.

Haha there is that =P Do you want to find something else or are you happy with the newspaper?


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## Cordane

I might put her in with Ava and Nova tomorrow. Let them have play time together. She is probably twice their size, (she is over 3 months while the twins were weaned last week).
I'm happy using news paper for my two boys and my other 3 girls but I need something different in the big tank.


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## AyJay658

Thats a good idea =) Aww the twins =P Bless. Hmm what is available to you?


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## Cordane

I don't even know why I call them the twins. They don't even look alike. One is a weirdly marked Siamese while the other is an argente. But they have a similar face. Maybe that's why.
Honestly, I don't know what is available. Usually when I go looking for something, I get it that day but I have learnt that so much I may potentially by can be harmful to my mice. 
I think I never really looked at bedding because the tank is rather big and I would go through a lot of bedding. I have seen some care fresh stuff, it's colorful balls of something. It almost looks like compacted toilet paper but in different colours.
Maybe I could buy wood shavings, I mean they use them for chicken bedding right? Maybe the chicken farm next door has some.. 
I will probably go into town later this week and see what is available.


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## AyJay658

Carefresh is really expensive here compared to woodshavings. Woodshavings work out really cheap here. Like 9 pounds for the biggest cube I have ever seen =L Just make sure its not made with ceder and isn't too dusty and they should be OK I think! I have only ever bought woodshavings that have been made for small animal bedding so I am not sure how careful you would need to be..


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## Cordane

I have no idea either. Gosh, the things I need to remember. I wish NZ was more accommodating for mice..


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## AyJay658

Why isn't it?


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## Cordane

I honestly have no idea. I mean it's accommodating for rats. There's a rat club and all. Nothing for mice though..


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## AyJay658

Aww you should start a mouse club! =D You could use the same bedding as people use for rats for your mice.


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## Cordane

That's the care fresh stuff or newspaper or hay. Never seen anything else. The people in the northern rabbit and cavy club are allowing mice in their shows. Just novice stuff. Good health and temperament. Simple stuff. I help out there. The judge doesn't know much, she had been emailing me for months with all these questions. I feel so important.


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## AyJay658

Hay would work on top of the newspaper. Or you could get carefresh but its not cheap.. Not here anyway. Oo are you going to show? Haha thats cool that you know more than her =P


----------



## Cait

I use a hemp horse bedding called Aubiose for my mice - you may have something similar over there?


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## Cordane

MouseBreeder said:


> I use a hemp horse bedding called Aubiose for my mice - you may have something similar over there?


I have never heard of it. When I go to town to get groceries, I will have a look around. I need stock food anyway


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## AyJay658

Might be easier to get it online if you cannot find it in the shops =)


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## Cordane

Only problem with getting it online.. You need a credit card which I don't have.


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## AyJay658

Ahh I see. Could your dad buy it on his card and then you give him the cash?


----------



## Cordane

Nope. Tried that once. Asking him I mean. So nope. I'm sure I'll find something


----------



## Cordane

Today is day 8. The white is showing up better 
One looks like a possible poor tri colour but I could be totally wrong. He has different shades of gray..
Pictures for any one who wants them.

Here are the girls:

































































And here are the boys:

































Group Photo:









And just a cute baby photo:


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## AyJay658

The black ones are rather striking! Love your babies =D


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## MojoMouse

They grow so quickly! I love the boy with the heavy markings. The last photo is precious.


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## Cordane

I have noticed that out of the two blacks, one is darker (you can really see it in the group photo).
I love that moment when you react quick enough to capture one of those moments.
I'm unsure of if I want to keep any though.


----------



## Fraction

I love the girl with the face mark. Very cute.


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## Cordane

I have absolutely no idea on colours other than the obvious blacks. Any ideas?
















She has bum spots! They're kind of cute.








Does this mean she is a tri? Poor tri? That spot is black while her bum is grey.








This girl is so squirmy. Well.. not squirmy, she just loves to crawl around in your hand.








I love her spots. <3 So very much.
















What is he? That spot on his face is dark compared to the other spots.








He is just adorable.


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## MojoMouse

I have no idea what's going on with the bubs that have markings in the different tones. If they're tris, they're a different genotype to the OS ones. Very interesting - I'm keen to see what some breeders who are knowledgeable about tris think. Can you get them without the mouse being splashed?

You've got a male and female with this colour anomalie. I wonder what a pairing between them would turn up?

I think when their coats have grown more and gone through a moult, the colour effect may be clearer.


----------



## Cordane

I'm actually thinking about keeping them for this very reason.
I still haven't really decided on what to variety to really aim for so I figure that for now, I will see what I get with the females I have and then go from there. I'd still love to focus on selfs. 
But these two babies have intrigued me.

I hope someone may be able to help explain the abnormalities.
This was meant to be a test breed to help figure out what Dad was. Now I'm filled with all sorts of questions.


----------



## AyJay658

Is it just me or is everyone else seeing like 4 or 5 different colours on boy one? =S Lovely babies as always =D


----------



## Cordane

AyJay658 said:


> Is it just me or is everyone else seeing like 4 or 5 different colours on boy one? =S Lovely babies as always =D


It's not just you. It pictures his bum looks like it has a hint of tan but really his body spots are very similar except the one on his eye.


----------



## MojoMouse

In the first second pic you posted of the mother, it looks like the colour on her bottom has some darker and lighter shades. It could just be shadows though. Is her marking evenly coloured?

I was thinking about you hoping for selfs. You know that you could breed some beautiful BEWs probably in a couple of generations by selectively pairing the undermarked bubs. You'd have self phenotypes. If you concentrated on conformation as well, the line could end up with stunning whites, because the parents, particularly the father, have really nice features. Long haired, fluffy big eyed BEWs - I'd be SO envious!

I certainly think you should investigate the tri-ish markings further though. You could have something very unusual!


----------



## Cordane

The colour on her bottom is very even. In my eyes there is no differences in shades on her bum colouring.
I absolutely love Basil. His fluffy coat and big eyes make my heart melt. I'm hoping he passed on the big eyes to his babies. I was thinking about working on BEW and self blacks. I just love self blacks and you also never see white mice with dark eyes. Actually The only self mouse I have seen was a beige.
Downside is that the mice I have, very few lead to colours I've been contemplating.

I will probably be keep both tri looking babies, I want to find out how that happened. 
Dad will kill me with the amount of cages I will have. Haha


----------



## Cordane

Here are some more pictures of their colours. The girls spots are still rather different and the boys spots are looking a little like each other but still not quite.


----------



## Frizzle

A friend of mine pointed out that my banded babies looked like they were lighter on their rumps then on their heads. I've noticed that babies seem to fur out head to tail, perhaps the different growth rates make the hair longer on the head, and therefore look darker?

Could either of your mice be brindle? It creates light and dark regions, and with such small snippets of color on the babies, it could just be an area that happened to be dark.


----------



## Cordane

Frizzle said:


> Could either of your mice be brindle? It creates light and dark regions, and with such small snippets of color on the babies, it could just be an area that happened to be dark.


It could come from their Dad. A few people have said he looks to be a diluted brindle.


----------



## Cordane

So today is day 11 
No pictures but the boy with the odd markings, his colouring is becoming just like his dad


----------



## Cordane

First set of eyes are open


----------



## MojoMouse

It's so exciting when they open their eyes! Your bubs are just adorable! :love1

The colour thing happening is so interesting. I find it intriguing because the lighter colour patches are not limited to the rump. It's like there's some weird incomplete dominance happening, but occurring in patches. I'm sure as their coats develop, things will become clearer as to what's going on.


----------



## Cordane

Thank you, their colours are all sort of evening out now though the girls spot is still pretty dark. One of the tan ones has developed a slight ticking on the coat but since their eyes have just opened, they aren't very interested in staying still for a picture. Hmmmm


----------



## AyJay658

Aww bless them! Places to go, people to see!!


----------



## Cordane

Though they haven't come out of the house yet. Im starting to think mum has them on house arrest. Haha


----------



## AyJay658

Haha they have to do their homework before they can go out to play! =P


----------



## Cordane

Oh those poor little kiddies! I hope that some of them have nice eyes. I'm curious to see how easy the big eyes trait is to pass on. My last resort will be breeding Xia with Basil.
It seems Xia is the best girl I have for big eyes and ears. 
I can't wait til they finish their homework.

Mind you, I'll be seeing more baby mice this weekend. Maybe even some guineas and bunnies


----------



## AyJay658

Haha I hope they do for your sake too =) Hehe me neither =) You will have to take some photos of them running around their cage for us =) I love the actual little mouse stage. When they actually look like tiny mice.
=O why?? I miss baby guineapigs sooo much


----------



## Cordane

Oh I will  I can't wait till they are off home arrest. Haha
A friend of mine who breeds rabbits and guineas.. She adopted 3 mice, 2 of which gave birth 3 weeks ago and she is having trouble sexing them. So she called me. 
She seems to think I'm a mouse genius.


----------



## Cordane

So I've noticed the tan coloured piebald babies, the tan spots have an almost black undercoat


----------



## Tikmio

I LOVE girl number two. If she's argente maybe she'll look like my Minnie.


















:love1 All those babies!


----------



## Cordane

Minnie is sooooooo cute! Though my one has dark eyes so she isn't argente. I don't know what colour she is.


----------



## MojoMouse

Cordane said:


> I hope that some of them have nice eyes. I'm curious to see how easy the big eyes trait is to pass on.


In my experience, passing on a trait like big eyes is not a simple matter of inheritance in the same way as a coat colour. There is no one gene for eye size. It's a complex structure involving cranial shape, socket size and positioning of the eyeball. There are many genes and modifyers that affect these things.

You could get lucky with the babies getting the big eyes, or it could be a matter of selecting for it over a number of generations, slowly distilling the genetic combination into one where the trait is regularly passed on, rather than the more common situation of the occasional big eyed mouse that has the genes line up by chance.

I wish I had the genetic recipe for it. I'd share if I did! :lol:


----------



## Cordane

So in other words, there is a lot of work to be done.
Oh well, I look forward to it


----------



## MojoMouse

Maybe, or, as I said, you could get lucky!  The good thing with Basil is that his brother(?) and father, or at least, the rellies that you posted pics of, all have nice features. They all have nice eyes, it's just that Basil's are the best. So, it could well be that the gene mix is largely dominant!

I should say that eye size is one of my obsessions - a more experienced breeder would probably advise a more balanced approach with all the traits of a well conformed mouse.


----------



## Cordane

It's always good to have something to focus on though. Since I'm first starting out though, I guess I'm just seeing what I can produce. I have already made my next pairing. Xia with the new boy. Hoping for a black. I wasn't sure if I should put Willow or Xia in, Xia has big ears and nice eyes but her coat has a decent amount of white and her black isn't terrible dark. Willow, to me her upsides are that her coat is always shiny and the black parts on her are jet black with a nice face. But her ears and eyes are nothing special.
I'm still trying to plan ahead but I have no idea of what I'm aiming for..


----------



## MojoMouse

Xia and the new boy are a great choice! I really like him - he's got a great coat and nice regular features. The babies should be lovely! How exciting - another litter.


----------



## Cordane

MojoMouse said:


> Xia and the new boy are a great choice! I really like him - he's got a great coat and nice regular features. The babies should be lovely! How exciting - another litter.


I'm glad you think so  I'm actually rather happy with him as a starter mouse, means i'll hopefully get some.. somewhat fluffy self mouse. He has started to leave her alone now so I think he did the deed.


----------



## Cordane

Well the numbers are out of wack but here they are. Day 17.


----------



## MojoMouse

I can't believe it's day 17 already! They're all growing up. :lol:

Interesting to see that the markings seem to be evening out a bit in tone, but it's hard to tell in the pics.


----------



## Cordane

They have really evened up now though the spot is still noticibly different it's nothing like it use to be. It's a bit of a shame but at least I can focus on one thing at a time.


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## Seafolly

I love Girl 2.  Her head is lovely. Probably not what I should be thinking "lovely" looks like but I do.


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## Cordane

Don't worry, I love girl 2 as well, I'd keep her but I'm trying to focus on breeding dark selfs at the moment. I'll miss her, she is a sweetie already.
Thank you


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## Tikmio

Is boy 2 merle? Or roan or blue? Interesting bubs though, quite a mystery


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## Cordane

I have absolutely no idea. This was a test cross to see what the Dad is and boy 2 is just like his Dad.
I'd love for someone to be able to tell me.


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## Frizzle

Maybe try breeding the heaviest spotted ones back to each other so you get a larger patch of color to work with (or see better) in the next batch?


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## Cordane

Frizzle said:


> Maybe try breeding the heaviest spotted ones back to each other so you get a larger patch of color to work with (or see better) in the next batch?


I was thinking about doing that though there is part of me who wants to solely focus on self blacks.
I think I'll keep that boy and mostly tan girl and see what I get from them.

Or.. should I breed the tan girl back to Dad since the boy is very similar to the Dad..


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## Cordane

More Pictures 










































































































Boy 2 is so much like his Daddy. My Dad now refers to him as Basil Jr

I thought I would also add a video. Training is going well i believe. I put them all in an empty cage instead of a tub because they have a tendency to try jump out when my hand isn't in there. As soon as my hand is in there, they are all over me


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## Tikmio

They look longhair/angora-ish!


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## Cordane

I was thinking they were. They are only 3 weeks old 
Dad is the fluffiest mouse I've seen in person and mum may be a poor long hair. I'm actually really happy with these guys.


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## Frizzle

Very cool with the long fur! You could breed her back to the father to select for coat improvements. Or is that too many side-projects? :lol:


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## Cordane

Mum must have a longhaired gene. No complaints there! 
Girl 2 has really started to grow on me, I want to keep her but I feel like if i keep her, I should really decrease my numbers but I'm not sure who I should keep. Basil Jr is lovely to and I don't want to let him go but he is so much like his Dad I see no point in keep him as well. Though keeping him and breeding him back to mum may work in my favour of producing higher white babies and if I get a high white male, I could keep him and put him with a siamese who is rather light.

In my eyes, I can never have to many side projects but I want to figure out what I want to focus on.
So far my main projects are self blacks and self whites with long coats.

This is why I like having someone to message who can help and ask specific questions. Forums like this help a lot.


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## Tikmio

I feel just like you sometimes Cordane. I'm trying to keep my number of mice under 20 (might have to raise to 25), but I love everyone and want to breed everything! I have all these pied tans that I'm not sure about breeding, but they've grown on me (already have names). I have two totally random mice, one's some messed up agouti morph and ones a PEW, I don't want to breed these colors but yet I've kept the mice... Oh I need to get sorted out. You might not be as bad as me


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## Cordane

I only have 9 at the moment, soon to be 10 but like I have said, many of them I don't see how they are going to help me. I should start a thread asking what I can get from what I have though I believe that would be a lot to write and I would hate to be a pain.
I have decided to keep the one with the mark on her face, I call her Bandit and it seems once they are named, that's it. She grew on me. And a friend is giving me an agouti boy, would an agouti be good to breed to a high white cinnamon? Oh god.. 
So excluding the babies which will be finding new homes, I have.. Poor black tan and a pied c-diluted cinnamon, agouti (my boys) and my girls are.. Argente, pied Siamese, Siamese, 3 broken blacks (one is a high white poor black, the other is a dark shiny black and the other has big ears, eyes and a long tail with decent black) and a high white cinnamon.
What in heck can I breed with that... I would love suggestions on who to adopt out and what I can breed from that of anyone knows..

I hate that once they have names, I struggle to let them go.. It seems that when I adopt a mouse, I don't see to think about at all what I can breed with it, if it has nice features and coat, I tend to buy it no matter what.
25? My Dad would probably kill me if I had that many..


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## Tikmio

> 25? My Dad would probably kill me if I had that many..


LOL


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## Cordane

That excludes babies of course!


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## Cordane

Took pictures of the boy who doesn't have a home. I would love to keep him with me but my focus is self mice.. Maybe I should just have a line that is strictly long haired.. 
To keep or not to keep..


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## wowwy

keep them !!!!!!!! lol they look like pigs my sister said


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## Tikmio

Their coats are -beautiful-!


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## Cordane

So his coat is actually not half bad? Oh thank god. I can't help but compare my mice to everyone elses on here and I continually see how inferior mine are and how in my life time, I doubt they will every be anything compared to the US and UK show mice.. 
Thank you 
I do what to keep him, His Dad is Basil who is almost 2 years old so I know he may not be for a huge length of time. I already nick-named him Basil Jr. 
*sigh


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## Tikmio

I don't think it's baldness. He's probably angora. IMO angora is lovely!


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## Cordane

Oh I would love to breed angoras. I love how they are so gosh fluffy! Maybe I will keep him. I like the idea of a strictly longhaired/angora line and try improve it. Most of my mice are long haired but they are very poor in the sense that they lose A LOT of it by the time they are a bit older. The almost look like standard coated mice, (except Basil)


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## wowwy

do you know how you say you cant hwlp but compare your mice to everyone elses well i do the same thing and geuss what mine dont look half as nice as yours
i mean health wise their very healthy but i bred mice for fun for years and now i just got into selective breeding about 2 years ago and then i stopped keeping mice and now i have to start all over again and it sucks i have to breed amy mice just to breed them to see what the babies will look like so i can figure out what the parents produce cause i dont know exactly what their backgroudn is so yea
you have beautiful mice <3


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## MojoMouse

Cordane said:


> ... I like the idea of a strictly longhaired/angora line and try improve it. Most of my mice are long haired but they are very poor in the sense that they lose A LOT of it by the time they are a bit older. The almost look like standard coated mice, (except Basil)


Basil's coat is the reason I see potential in your line of angoras. If you use selection to develop this coat type, you'll have a great line of angoras, theoretically getting mice with even better coats than Basil. The good thing about him is the fact that it's not just that he's got a nice long coat - he's got many other good features, and so would make an excellent start to a line.


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## Cordane

Thank you wowwy, that made me feel do much better about my mice. I suppose I shouldn't complain about how mine look like nothing compared to everyone else's. Many of them are pet shop mice or are just a generation away.
The only downside about Basil is that he isn't the youngest mouse, he will be two next month and I'm so worried that I'll just wake up in the morning and he will be gone and even worse would be if I hadn't kept any babies from him to pass the genes on. I'm going to keep both my pied black girls so they can start my self black line ( still waiting for them to fall pregnant). With basil, since I'm really focusing on colour or anything, I'll probably breed him to my Siamese and argente girl, when I got them, they were fluffballs like basil but they have lost that over time. 
Would it just be a case of selectively breeding the longest coat to the longest coat? (obviously other features like eyes and ears included)
After thinking about it, I'll keep Basil Jr, at least til his coat starts to become less "fluffy" and decide then if I should breed from him or not. I think it would be good if his coat stays similar to now. His eyes are nice and his ears aren't to bad either. His guard hairs are about 1cm longer than the rest of his coat, well it looks that way, so I think he may be a good "asset".
Thank you Mojo. On a few other mouse forums, I have been told to not breed pet shop mice and/or to never breed Basil due to his tail being curled with a kink on the end. (not since birth). But finally, someone sees what I see in him sometimes. A old mouse with some potential


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## tinyhartmouseries

That's not a terrible angora coat, not by a long shot. As an angora breeder, what I see there is some good length on the guardhairs. What I would aim for would be a better, "fluffier" undercoat...look for some mice that seem very fluffy and cross to this mouse, and you could create an all around nice angora mouse. Remember that does loose their coat density as they age so if you can produce does with nice adult coats you can surely produce great males.  Yay angoras!


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## Cordane

He's an angora? I was never really sure how to tell the difference.. 
I was thinking I would breed him to:








When I got her, she was very fluffy though her guard hairs weren't to long but she has the best coat length out of all my females. I'm so very glad you think he is half way decent. I'm so happy that I managed to get something surprisingly good from a test cross. 
Since he is only 4 weeks and 1 day while she is 7 weeks, I have a little while to wait before I would even consider getting her pregnant. Do bucks lose coat density like does do?


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## tinyhartmouseries

I do think he is an angora, I see some poofy undercoat and a common fault in angoras is not enough undercoat. That being said, he could be longhair but I am of the opinion that it isn't easy to tell the difference between a poor longhair and a poor angora. 
Males will lose some of their coat, but not as drastically as females. It's best to wait until both are about 12 weeks and judge their coats then, as babies tend to be a little hairier.


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## Cordane

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I am of the opinion that it isn't easy to tell the difference between a poor longhair and a poor angora.


I thought it would be hard to tell the difference between a good longhair and a poor angora not when they are both poor? 
Oh well, either way. I'm pretty happy.


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