# Black X Brindle Litter



## windyhill

*Midnight x Abby*
Black self X Brindle 
D.o.B: 6/11/2010
Had: 10, culled to 6 (2 girls & 4 boys-will cull 3 males once I see the colors/markings)

3 Days old:


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## miss.understood

*awaits pictures*


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## miss.understood

Just curious, do you cull because you show your mice and are looking for the best quality in markings etc? xx


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## windyhill

I dont show my mice, but I am breeding to better them, so I cull the ones who would set me back in my breedings instead of making them better.


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## miss.understood

ah right i see.  xx


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## windyhill

Sorry the picture isnt too clear. Had to use a different camera then normal


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## Evangeline

Im not against culling if the animal wouldnt survive or would suffer in life but not just because it doesnt reach your recommendations? 
Couldn't you sell them to a pet shop or anything? Atleast they would be of better quality of normal mice?

Im not having a go or anything but cant realy understand why people would do that surely a pet shop would be the nicer option? Would you kill a child because it had downs syndrome or crohns disease like I have or even because I wanted a blonde haired child and got a brown haired one?

Please correct me if I have missed something?


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## Amelia66

yea but if you sell them to a pet shop and then the pet shop sells them to a snake owner .... surely thats worse. getting chased and eaten by a big snake :/


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## WillowDragon

Evangeline said:


> Im not against culling if the animal wouldnt survive or would suffer in life but not just because it doesnt reach your recommendations?
> Couldn't you sell them to a pet shop or anything? Atleast they would be of better quality of normal mice?
> 
> Im not having a go or anything but cant realy understand why people would do that surely a pet shop would be the nicer option? Would you kill a child because it had downs syndrome or crohns disease like I have or even because I wanted a blonde haired child and got a brown haired one?
> 
> Please correct me if I have missed something?


Please do not bring this arguement up in peoples threads, everyone has different opinions on this and are entitled to them, but there is a time and a place.


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## windyhill

4 Days:








(took out 2 males)


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## miss.understood

cute xx


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## Jack Garcia

Right at 4-5 days reminds me of a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. One day, they're pink and bare-skinned and the next they have fur! Hehe...so cute!


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## windyhill

Thanks 
I love going in the room and seeing them with pink skin and then the next day furred,
I get all excited and my husband thinks Im nuts,lol


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## Evangeline

WillowDragon said:


> Evangeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im not against culling if the animal wouldnt survive or would suffer in life but not just because it doesnt reach your recommendations?
> Couldn't you sell them to a pet shop or anything? Atleast they would be of better quality of normal mice?
> 
> Im not having a go or anything but cant realy understand why people would do that surely a pet shop would be the nicer option? Would you kill a child because it had downs syndrome or crohns disease like I have or even because I wanted a blonde haired child and got a brown haired one?
> 
> Please correct me if I have missed something?
> 
> 
> 
> Please do not bring this arguement up in peoples threads, everyone has different opinions on this and are entitled to them, but there is a time and a place.
Click to expand...

I wasnt bringing up an arguement im still new to all this culling and stuff although have done it with fish but was just kind of asking why when they are healthy as such, Apart from them setting you back a bit... Like I said I wasnt having a go. Also im sorry I did go bit over the top was having rather a bad day yesterday.


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## windyhill

7 Days:


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## Rhasputin

I love the little gold one. <3
wonder what she will be. Some sort of overmarked brindle?


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## windyhill

Not real sure. She is unmarked though. 
I was expecting broken marked, brindles & blacks. 
I didnt get brokens though


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## Rhasputin

If she grows up, and has a blue or grayish undercoat, she's probably a brindle with no stripes! 
If not then I have no idea! My brindles have thrown champagnes, and doves before, so maybe a champagne?


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## windyhill

I havnt bred doves, champagnes(no pink eyes yet) ,etc into my brindle lines.
I have several unmarked brindles and several recessive yellows that pop up in these lines, so she could be either one or none of those,lol


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## windyhill

8 Days:


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## windyhill

Heres the 2 brindles side by side:


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## Autumn2005

Is one bigger than the other, or is the baby just stretched out more?


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## windyhill

The male is slightly bigger then the female.


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## Autumn2005

Are those from breeding your RY line, or your Avy line?


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## windyhill

From one of my Avy lines (have 2)

9 Days:


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## StellaLuna

I bow to your awesomeness. The babies are gorgeous!


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## tipex

Hello

I see that your Brindle male are alive? Which Gen you have? Mobr? The effect of this gene is sex-related. The Brindle males are almost white with sooty tips (they look like siameses) and the coat is curly. This gene is usually lethal in males, and they usually die at 10 - 14 days of age. So why the male you have is brindle? I was very surprise.

I love this colors... but in our country it would be suffering animals bred, I may not breed this color:-(

But when you have a healty male...


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## Autumn2005

These are Avy/*, American brindles, which is not sex related. These brindles do have health problems, but it's equally shared in the sexes. Windy is breeding them to be healthier.


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## tipex

But Avy it get fat? With 6 month they get up like a Muffin... You don't can breed this out.... only you have the mahogani (mg) link...http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/158/4/1683

Ay and Avy is not good to breed... it has a lot of negativ effect of the body from the mouse... (diabetes, get fat, ect..)


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## Rhasputin

Tipex, I breed Avy brindles too, and all of mine are extremely healthy! Only a few have gotten bigger, and they're really only 'slightly bigger'.

They have big litters, and eat a very good diet, and are very good breeders!
It depends on the parents I think. None of mine have gotten obese or had any trouble with diabetes or anything.


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## tipex

Rhasputin that is no question of a good breeding... it isn't possibel to breed it healty---- it is a genetic defect

have a look ....http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/reprint/8/8/479

But it's your choice to breed that... So beautiful they are ... I could not ... I feel sorry for this mice...

But they are beautifule...i love this colors so so so...

tipex


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## Rhasputin

My brindle mice have none o these problems showing up. Mine are in fact, the healthiest mice in my entire mousery.

The only one that I have had with health problems, was the broken yellow one that I posted the other day. (she might be RY, she might be brindle, she might be lethal yellow). But I did not breed her, and she came from a pet store, so I think it does have to do with breeding somehow, it must!


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## tipex

When you have a defect on the TYR.... it get a with mice...so in the Melanocyten (Pigment cell) it can't make the Synthese..so no pigment would be make... so no pigment are in the hair...so the mice are white... but the Tyrosin...it have also other function..also it make that you can see... it make the colors in your eyes... you need also pigment in your Bowel... so when you don't can make Pigments...so you can have problems with your eyes your Bowel and your ears...ect... so what can a breeder do? Nothing... it is Fact that it make problem... ...how heavy the healty problems are...it is a question how defect is the TYR ... So i hope you understand what i want do explain... so you see... it is not a question of breeding.. it is a question of the allele...

tipex


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## Autumn2005

Yes, the american brindle and dominant red (Avy and Ay) do have health problems with obesity, but again, that's why breeders like Windy and Rhas breed for healthier mice, to help cut down on those problems. Brindles can be managed to remain healthy.


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## tipex

Why you mean that you can breed Ay or Avy healty?

Have you pic from Ay or Avy which is older then 6 months? It is only my intresting... I wandt to understand it why you are so sure.

tipex


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## Rhasputin

My brindles breeder females are atleast 6 months old, probably more like 7 or 8, and all are happy, and very healthy and active. This is why I breed from them. I do not want to breed from an un-healthy female, just to get nice looking mice, I was to use these heathly females to produce good looking, AND healthy mice.


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## tipex

have you pic? I am interesting to look... i have say that it give a mg... but Roland mean that it not exist on breeders...I'm curious


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## Rhasputin

I will get some photos as soon as I can. 
They will look fat now, because they are all pregnant! 
But normally, they are muscular, and good looking like regular mice.


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## windyhill

Thanks 

You can breed them to be healthier, which Ive been working on.
Mine dont get huge and they are good breeders.
Being heathlier is something they have to bred bred for though, it just doest happen over night. 
I dont have diabetes in these lines. The worese healthy problem Ive had is them getting slightly chubby. 
Im on my 4th gen. with this line.
I have several over 6 months old and they are all heathly.


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## tipex

are they fat?


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## windyhill

Nope, not fat.
Most of them are the same same size as the other mice their ages, but a few are bigger, but not in a fat way.


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## tipex

have you pic from your mice?


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## windyhill

Yes, I'll upload and post some pictures of them


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## tipex

thanks...  i am waiting...


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## windyhill

I got to take updated pictures of this litter. I love how the brindles are turing out


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## tipex

I have found a English articel whey Ay has so problem with healty....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC43409/pdf/pnas01129-0194.pdf

Avy it is the same like Ay.. .Avy it have only a mution more on the hair.. but it is the same problem..

tipex


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## Rhasputin

Tipex, we -know- there are problems with the health of brindles. 
This is why we are breeding them to be more healthy.

I was planning on taking some pictures for you, but all of my girls are about to POP because they are very pregnant, so it is impossible to show you that they are 'not fat' right now. :lol: 
Once they have their litters, I will take some pictures to share. If I took them right now, they'd look really fat with their baby bellies!


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## Jack Garcia

There's no reason to be snide, Casey. Silvia meant to say that the problems are inherent: you can only get rid of them up to a point, but not entirely. That's what the article says as well.

The difference which causes friction between breeders is that US and English breeders don't acknowledge the same socio-culturally-driven concept of _qualzuchten_ as Germans and Swiss do. In fact, qualzuchten is a very foreign concept to most English and US breeders and is usually dismissed on various grounds, but it is taken very seriously in Germany and Switzerland (and a few other places). This is why US breeders breed Ay/* red, Avy/* brindle, go/go angora, hr/hr true hairless and so forth. It's a difference in people and the way they see themselves in relation to their animals, as well as how they perceive the animals themselves.


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## tipex

Thanks Jack... that is the different.. right words...

sorry *Rhasputin* it does not go against you. I hope you accept my apologies. It was not my intention to let you stand there bad. Sorry

I mean you don't understand the problems with Ay ore Avy.. But when you know what the problems are and you breeding that..so i must accept that ... is no problem for me...

regards tipex


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## windyhill

I know I cant make brindles 100% healthier, but I cant work towards it. 
Me and Casey both know the problems with breeding brindles, but we have a goal to breed them healthier. Neither one of us breed animals that show the common faults of brindles (being obese,etc) but instead breed the animals that show what we are looking for, being smaller/healither.


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## tipex

I have work in the 2006 with Ay..and i don't know about this problems..I was amazed why i have a lot of fat Ay mice and a lot of tumors...I was so sad. And then i became the answer... so now i know why... so i have chance to ee ....and now i have no problems... 

It is the same.... You are helping the poor dog... in i will helping the Ay and Avy mices...that they will never be born. Because if they do not even breed ... they will never have to suffer...

I think we have a lot of so so nice colors they are healty......

tipex


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## windyhill

There are alots of mice colors, that are healthy, but theres no reasonw hy we cant try to make a healthy brindle.
I havent had tumors in my lines.
If I have an unhealthy animal, then I cull it, no breed it. I mkeep most of my brindles to see how the line is going and none of mine have ever shown signs of suffering.


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## Rhasputin

Sorry, I wasn't trying for that to sound rude. I was trying to put it into simple words, because I thought maybe Tipex was misunderstanding what I was saying. Snide, I was not being. 

I do understand the problems associated with the brindles, as well as I know of problems with hairless mice and rats. But I enjoy both brindles, and hairless, so I breed them in such a way as to produce the healthiest mice I possibly can, as long as the genetics of it all will allow it.


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## Jack Garcia

I think everybody is saying the same thing--that yes Avy/* and Ay/* mice do often have health issues, some moreso than others, and that yes there will always be some health issues in them (since it's inherent and the same allele that causes the problem also causes the colors we breed toward). Some (though not all) European fancies take the attitude that what they deem as "suffering breeds" (_qualzuchten_ has no direct English translation, which is indicative of the fact that in general native English-speakers don't acknowledge the suffering as such) should not be bred, ever. In other countries, we leave that up to the individual breeders to decide.

Speaking only for Ay/*, I must say that as one of the few people who has access to both Ay/* and e/e, I much prefer Ay/* for a couple reasons. First, it is one of the original varieties of the modern mouse fancy, going back at least to the 1800s. Second, it is the only dominant yellow mutation in any mammal I know of. Third, it is a much more challenging to breed to standard (compared to e/e) in that not only are you "working uphill" with the health issues and the breeding issues, but you are also constantly fighting the fact that the variety does not and will never breed true. I know my opinion would be very unpopular in Germany or Switzerland (and that's why I had to go elsewhere to get my red mice), yet I don't think those of us who do breed the qualzuchten must cede, necessarily, that we're causing harm to the mice by continuing their existence. Many, many people do cause harm to them, but in a variety of ways (such as not feeding them, feeding them alive to snakes, neglecting them, etc). I would much rather have an Ay/* or Avy/* who is as healthy as possible and who is bred toward show standards than an underfed, scraggly smaller PEW from a backyard breeder.


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## Jack Garcia

For anyone who reads High German, this site speaks about the qualzuchten:

http://www.dmrm.de/farbmaus/qualzuchten ... rbmaus.htm

The list they give has dancing/waltzing mice (neurological defects), nude/hairless mice (endocrine and immune problems, plus skin issues), mice who have breathing problems, longhair/fuzzy/rex where the eyes and whiskers (both important sense organs) are affected, all dominant red and red-related varieties, and sex-linked brindle. At least, that's what I read. Native speakers feel free to correct me.


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## Rhasputin

Interesting! 

I kinda feel that way about great danes and some other dog breeds. Dogs that have bracocephalia (which I may be spelling wrong . . . ) I think are just an awful idea, and great danes always have very short life spans, and many many health problems.

I guess I can draw the parallel to mice, even though it is not my personal opinion.


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## Jack Garcia

Don't you think that holding that opinion about dogs but not mice is inconsistent? I'm curious how you reconcile the two beliefs. I support the fancier's right to breed whatever kind of animal they want, as long as it can be standardized and shown (so for example, no headless dogs or mice without legs).


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## tipex

http://www.farbmaus-rassezucht.de/farbmaeuse/allgemeines/qualzucht/qualzuchten_bei_der_farbmaus.htm

Look that you see a Ay in young and 6 months later...


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## Jack Garcia

I've seen this before. I will post pictures of my reds in six months to see how they compare. Somebody better remind me though.


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## tipex

Very interesting talk... I slowly feel it is a question of culture... In switcherland a Pet it have also legal right. http://www.bvet.admin.ch/org/index.html?lang=en So the poor dog...if that had happened in Switzerland, so i go to the bvet and this Dog owners have some big big problems... he must go to judge. High monetary penalty and animal ban. 
You see the culture is a other... I don't can/would...breed a animal how have any problems... so you see "suffering breeds" qualzuchten it is a question of morality and appreciation of the animals.. ... I have see showdogs...that have so small heat that the brain have no space.... when they grow up...they have headattacks and epilepsie.....that is heavy i think..and that is breeding work!

talk soon... tipex


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## Rhasputin

No no, don't misunderstand me. I don't think that -only- of dogs.

There are some things in the Mouse fancy that I don't like, too. Earless mice, dancing mice. . . I'm on the fence about tailless mice.
As well as cats. I strongly disapprove of twisty cats, and although munchkins are very cute, I don't think I could handle the heart-break of one when it gets older and has spinal problems.

Hairless animals in general, I have no problem with, weather it be mouse, rat, or cat. They can live happy healthy lives under good care.


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## windyhill

I bred hairless rats for 6 years and had no problems.
Im against breeding any thing that will mess with the animals normal behavior or quality of life(earless,etc)
I breed for healthier mice in all of my mice, including brindles.
It is diffent for different cultures.

I have a hairless dog (chinese crested) and love him to peices  I think he is the cutest thing ever


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## Autumn2005

How does earless affect mice behavior?


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## windyhill

Ive been told They dont seem to hear as well, but I dont have any, so not sure how true that is.


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## Jack Garcia

Earless mice were bred by some folks in San Diego a few years ago. I'm not sure if they are still breeding them, though. I also heard that it affected hearing, but only in the way that the outer ear "catches" sound waves and funnels them into the inner ear so they can be heard. I'm not sure if it affects the inner and middle ear. I'd never really thought about it. Hmm... I suppose this could affect behavior in that the mice are more skittish because they can't hear properly?

I do know that I personally find earless mice very ugly. They looked maimed to me, even though I know they're not. Ears are such a huge part of what make a mouse a mouse, moreso than fur or a tail, I'd say. I wouldn't breed them (to standard or otherwise) but I don't have a problem with people who do.


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## windyhill

I dont have a problem with people breeding them if thats what they want, but I wouldnt breed them.
I would think with them hearing less then normal, they would be more skittish, but they may or may not be. 
Im not sure if they are still being bred or not, I know some people breed mice with culred ears though.


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## Rhasputin

I think they look ugly too. :roll:


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## Jack Garcia

Also, I just remembered a person in New Jersey (not Christine, who is the only other NJ mouse person I know) who I can't remember that had mice whose ears slowly fell off. I don't know enough about earlessness to know if this was the same gene but if it is, wouldn't that be painful?


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## Rhasputin

That sounds very painfull.

Christine has the gene, but as far as I know, wants to get rid of it. And one of the other people at the show, had a single earless mouse, but I think that may have come from Christine? I'm not sure. Either way, it really looked bad. ):


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## Jack Garcia

I thought she might have gotten them from Christine, but I'm not sure. It bothers me that I can't remember her name! She said the gene for earlessness was unstable in that it wasn't always inherited as either a Mendelian recessive or Mendelian dominant. Too much trouble in my opinion!


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## WillowDragon

Also mice lose heat through thier ears aswell as thier tails, so it would affect tempreture control.

So I'm guessing an earless, manx mouse would have no chance in very hot weather.

W xx


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