# 'Designer' Dog Breeding Ethics (Split from Puppy alert)



## Fraction (Aug 29, 2011)

Did you know the guy who first bred the specific Labrador/poodle cross actually regrets doing it now, on top of what Stina said?

Also lol 'I don't want to discuss on a discussion board, just coo over my puppies thanks'

I don't think we support puppy BYBs here.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

We support backyard mouse breeders, but not backyard dog breeders?


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

I think this ties right in with the dog thread we had going the other day, about how our perception of dogs causes us to view things like culling/breeding/homing differently. Here's for anyone who wants to read: http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=11063&hilit=ethical+breeding There was also this thread: http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10148&hilit=Designer where there was some discussion about "designer dogs."

Personally, I don't know enough about the poodle shedding problem, I'm just not a fan of Cocker-spanials. The puppies do look pretty cute though, I think they look a little like giant mice.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Laigaie said:


> We support backyard mouse breeders, but not backyard dog breeders?


And that's why I was positive, haha. I'm a backyard mouse breeder, I can't judge someone who just chose another species. That said I understand dogs are more of a commitment than mice so breeding requires a lot more thought and consideration. I could go on but there's my nutshell of an opinion.

I never understood the Labradoodle cross. The ones I've met are friendly. But oh my god they're wired. My current Golden is a year and a half old so I've had a lot of long chats with puppy owners each day at the dog park and each owner says casually, "Oh yes, this is his third walk today." and the dog is bouncing up and down like he's on a springboard. I personally could not deal with it. Time to find something like agility to channel that energy!


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

To me, the main difference is that mice are not euthanized by the millions at overcrowded shelters across the world.

Yes, they are cute. There's a whole lot more to consider about a puppy/dog than how cute it is, however.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

tinyhartmouseries said:


> To me, the main difference is that mice are not euthanized by the millions at overcrowded shelters across the world.


That's the part I was holding back.  I actually chose mice because rats are overflowing in Ontario shelters. For my specific location it just wasn't the best choice.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Seafolly said:


> Laigaie said:
> 
> 
> > We support backyard mouse breeders, but not backyard dog breeders?
> ...


That is it exactly. Dogs need WAY more medical care, shots, spay, training, time, and money. They are more emotional. If I sell a mouse that I have bred once and don't plan to breed again...it doesn't really care. It doesn't become depressed and miss me. It just wants food and shelter and a safe home. A dog is as emotional as people in many respects. They become hugely attached to their pack. Rehoming a mouse is simple...a dog not so much. 
It's okay to be a dog breeder and not show. I am not against all back yard breeders persay...but those just breeding for money are just plain wrong. And unfortunatly a great many of those type of BYB's do breed designer mutts. They do it because it's in vouge right now and those pups sell for more than purbreds sometimes (which is super crazy). 
I am not saying the OP is that type of breeder. I have no idea. It's just that many of them are. 
*shrugs*


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## Fraction (Aug 29, 2011)

Laigaie said:


> We support backyard mouse breeders, but not backyard dog breeders?


As others have said, there is a significant difference in the commitment required between dogs and mice as pets, for starters. And there's a huge difference between BYBing mice and selling them for a couple of pounds or dollars (when mice are, in some places, difficult to find as pets), and BYBing dogs when shelters are overflowing with them.

It's especially unethical to BYB dogs of certain breeds: big dogs should be tested for hip dysplacia, brachy breeds shouldn't be bred to have smaller and smaller faces (BYBs and a LOT of show breeders should both be slapped for this IMO), staffies and pit bulls shouldn't be bred willy-nilly because of how many there are in rescues everywhere... and people shouldn't breed the dogs that are in vogue and market them as ~hypoallergenic~ when no they aren't. It's ridiculous to BYB your's and your neighbour's crappy dogs and expect £600-800 (the average prices I've seen for SPESHUL DESIGNER BREEDS) when rescues are chock full of awesome dogs that people don't want because a bloo bloo shelter dogs are broken!!!!

For the record yeah I am against BYBers and, a lot of the time, show breeders. Dogs should not be thought of as accessories, to get whatever is currently ~in~ and then get rid of it when you're done. If you're breeding because you want to make money, or because your dog is SO CUTEEEEEE and you want a dog just like it, then you have no reason to be breeding at all.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

If people are breeding for some of the extreme (and unhealthy) traits just to win shows, it seems to me that intervention at this level would be the most effective. Sure, there will always be an underground of "purists" but if the standards are changed, and any non compliant dog is disqualified by an independent vet, then surely over time the breeds will settle to standards that don't compromise the dog so much.

I don't know anything much about the dog show world, but new legislation about breeds won't work. People want to win shows, fanatically. There is already legislation in place in most countries relating to the humane treatment of animals, so this could be used instead.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

I honestly don't understand a thing about dog shows and I'm very glad that this doesn't happen as often in the cow world. But I believe the reason they want to win so much is because once they have some titles behind their belt, it makes the animals worth more. Same as in the cow world. We have shows and then what we call virtual shows. You take a picture of the front, side and back of your cow and send it into the judges. The last bull who won that sold for $87,000 or something when normally a stud bull would be worth $2,000.
A title, in any language/world, means a lot.


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## BlackCat99 (Jun 30, 2011)

Cordane said:


> The last bull who won that sold for $87,000 or something when normally a stud bull would be worth $2,000.
> A title, in any language/world, means a lot.


That is an insane price difference! and something I don't really understand myself lol but to each his own I guess.

I have always felt especially with designer dogs, why pay someone 500$ (or usually more) for what is basically a mix breed dog with a funny name when I can just go to the pound and get a dog whose fixed and up to date on shots for like 200 (depending on shelter)... maybe that is from being tired of seeing all the "pure bread" dogs on sites >.< every time I see that my mind goes... white or wheat?


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

I think he was the world virtual show winner. So he went up against the best of each place and won. The owners at the time had fed him up so much that he looked really good though when the new owners purchased him and transported him to NZ, he was in terrible condition and the drastic change of being grain fed to grass fed made him go down hill incredibly fast. They could never get him to look the same as he did in the pictures.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Cordane said:


> But I believe the reason they want to win so much is because once they have some titles behind their belt, it makes the animals worth more.


.. and that's a good thing about breeding mice. They will never be worth a fortune so you really do show for the love of it and the animals. Yes some people try to sell them to make money, but if they're doing it right it won't cover their outgoings. There are always people who seem to ruin it for others but at least mouse breeding is a hobby and not a business like some (dodgy) dog breeders seem to run.


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## ekimsivad (Sep 20, 2011)

tinyhartmouseries wrote:
"To me, the main difference is that mice are not euthanized by the millions at overcrowded shelters across the world."

No, they are culled by the hundreds by mouse fanciers! It is impossible to compare the two breeds. If mice were as popular as dogs they would also be culled in their millions, that is just the way of the world. It's not nice but it is reality.

Cordane wrote:
"But I believe the reason they want to win so much is because once they have some titles behind their belt, it makes the animals worth more."

And what is wrong with that? If you own a business and you are the best at what you do would you be content earning the same amount as another business doing the same thing but not as well? People are made to feel guilty because they have some success and then cash in on it. Making money seems to be seen as something dirty and undesirable. Not every BYB is an uncaring, cruel individual who breeds their animals to exhaustion. I know some highly regarded breeders of various animals who actually keep their pets in pretty awful conditions, they just make sure that the general public never get to see that side of things.

Certain people in the UK mouse fancy have over the years tried to make money and they have been criticised, normally behind their backs. For several years I supplied mice to Harrods and they paid me VERY handsomely. I still gave mice away free to other NMC members (something I have always done) and Harrods only ever got my surplus stock. I never once bred a litter specifically for them. I still had people talking about me and saying I was only in it for the money. Thankfully I am the sort of person who doesn't give a tinkers cuss what anybody else thinks but I know that it would have upset many people.

It seems to me that many people on this forum are very happy to pass judgement on others, often without knowing half the facts. Some folks need to get a life of their own and then maybe they would not be so quick to interfere in others.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Oh, I never said there is anything wrong with it, I breed Scottish Highland Cattle, we show them every year. For the fun of it and it is nice to get some ribbons. It does make them worth more if you win some of the bigger prizes and there is nothing wrong with that.


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