# Could he carry some kind of disease?



## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

So, I put two does (Shelley and Anna - sisters) in with a buck (Quake) about a month ago now. The sisters are not related to Quake (if they are, it's far out). First, after a few weeks, Shelley gets very sick, loses a lot of weight in no time at all, and I have to put her to sleep.
Anna seems to get along fine, though, until a few days ago. She was already huge with babies when she started getting sick as well. She looked a bit oddly shaped too. She gave birth last night to 11 babies. 3 were dead this morning, and none of the live ones had milk.
This afternoon all but one were dead. The live ones was very weak, but had blueish red tail, mouth and feet (I culled it). Mum looks dreadful, and I have decided to put her to sleep as well after writing this.

Symptoms in both girls have been heavy wightloss, loss of appetite, inactivity, stuff around the eyes and possibly pain (both gave a squeek when I tried picking them up).
Neither Quake nor any of my other mice are showing symptoms of any kind.

Maybe I should mention that I have a third sister, who had a litter a few months back with another male, and there were no problems at all with her or the babies.

So, my question is: could Quake possibly carry something that he infected the girls with, but that doesn't affect himself? And in that case, what could it be?


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

When dealing with any animal anything is possible, I have no idea what may have been the cause for the symptoms you describle, as to if it is something that the buck may have passed onto the does and be immune to whatever himself is plausible.

You did not state if the other sister were housed with the does that were paired to your buck quake or not, if not then the 2 does may have picked something up before mating with quake in which case quake may or may not show signs of illness over the next few weeks.

I did see something on a herp site about strange coloured dead pinkies and this was found to be a bacteria that had multiplied at an excessive rate over a short time period 12 hours, if memory serves me right the colour was more orange than anything else.

I persnally would put the mousery into quarantine no new animals to enter or leave for a period of 1 whole month aswell as not visit any other establishment with mice unless someone else can shed some light as to a confirmed diagnosis.

Sterilising all cages and feeding/water utensils. I use a product known as FC10 which I use regularly when cleaning my cages as it is used here in the UK by veterinary surgeons for cleaning all the examination tables etc. can be purchased off eBay easy enough.

I would be interested to know what others think aswell as I have never come across it before with any rodent I have bred in over 30 years. If someone has had it before would they say it is happened at this time of the year so could also be a seasonal thing? I say this as I know of one medical condition in humans that his more prevalent during the fall.


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

Thanks for the answer, pro. 

All three sisters, including some others girls, were housed together before Anna and Shelley had their date with Quake. And as mentioned, no other mouse I have is showing any symptoms (for now, at least).

The dead babies weren't strangely coloured, only the one live one. That struck me as weird. But the discolouration might have been there on the other babies before they died, I don't know.


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

This has had me searching my brain and it now hurts lol. Blueish red is a sign of lack of oxygen or extreme cold. The lack of milk in the babies bellies is just an indication that the mums did not feed them which is understandable if they were sick.

The deaths of the babies is also understanable if they were not kept warm or fed by the mothers, unless they had a condition known as Tracheo-oesphageal fistula, which would mean they were born unable to eat as in many cases of this codition there is a gap in the food pipe and is usually connected to the windpipe at some point.

The rapid decline in health of the mothers is very concerning.

Out of curiosity do you give your breeding does any added vitamins and trace minerals before pairing up and during pregnancy. This might be a cause of the does becoming sick as they were giving everything to the unborn. I know it is maybe a long shot but it does occur in other animals from time to time and can happen even to a proven mother of the past. Think why expectant human women are advised to drink more milk during pregnancy,(added calcium) and many also require the need to take iron tablets or other multivitamins. Humans are monitored with blood tests etc throughout the term of the pregnancy unfortunately this is not available to most of us with mice, can you imagine the cost of having blood samples taken from every pregnant doe and ultrasounds at the vets over the short pregnancy term.

All we can do is ensure our mice and any other animal gets everything that we can possibly do for them, I think more on the lines as to what if the animal was me and if I feel that I am lacking energy or something I take appropriate vitamins etc we humans seem to do this automatically as wild animals also do, they will search out what their bodies require, once in captivity it is far better to offer everything and the animal not take it than not to offer it.

Vitamins are usually adequate with a good balenced diet , but the trace minerals are not that readily available I have found in many commercial animal feeds and as such I have a mineralised block in every cage, some of my mice especially the pregnant ones seem to either lick or nibble on it. I guess I spoil my mice to much. I do avoid anything with sugar in it unless I happen across a constipated one in which case I have found givving a high sugar treat helps them although does make them a little loose for the a few days afterwards.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

When I lost several pregnant moms and litters, it was due to nutrition.


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

Not necessarily but is a possibility, the mums being too good and giving everything to their offspring.

As I stated in my last post think of us humans and women taking extra iron and calcium during pregnancy, without blood tests we do not know if our animals are lacking in anything.

Occasionally a mature cow may need a boost of calcium after giving birth, we do not know this until after the birth that something may be wrong so is nothing to do with the way we provide nutrition just that like all animals everyone is different and some may need more than others.

I do not believe that quake is carrying a lethal disease of some kind but as you have a sister of one of the females it is something to take into consideration if you pair her up with another buck, that maybe it may be a trait within the line to give the everything to the young.

What I am trying to say is basically never to automatically assume it is a disease as it may just be something to which we have no immediate control over, but when something like that happens is to look at all possible causes from basic bedding substrate to feed and even disease and any other possible environmental factors.

Like I also mentioned in my last post Tracheo-Oesphageal fistula is actually caused by a virus that is more prevalent in the autumn/winter than any other time of year.

Without a full professional autopsy being done I do not think an answer will be found as to the cause of the problem.


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