# red (Ay/A b/b) babies?



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Hello.

I currently have three litters of red mice (Ay/A b/b). Their fur hasn't really come in yet.

I'm wondering if anybody has any pictures of red babies as they develop? These mice are all dark, but at this point I can't tell which is cinnamon and which is red.

In a few days I will be able to tell for sure but I thought I'd ask here as well in case any of y'all have pictures!


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Eeeeee babies! :>


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I wouldn't be of much help, none of the reds that have ever been born in my mousery have been good and dark.

But I will say... the darkest red mouse i ever bred, when she was a pinkie I thought she was going to be chocolate! I was surprised when she turned out quite a respectable red (Though no way near as dark as yours)

W xx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks Willow. That's what I had figured...I have 11 babies in the oldest litter, and I was fearing that all 11 would be cinnamon instead of red (that's like my luck!). 

I am thinking at least two are red, though. When they have all their fur in I will post pictures.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Here are some updated pictures of the red boys' babies. Two litters, two different mothers.









This litter is red X cinnamon. As you see, there is only one red baby but her color is relatively pure and clean. Even though I culled down to four, they are still somewhat thin for my liking.









This litter is red X black. As you see, they have umbrous stripes and must not be bred from. Their red color is weaker, duller, and more interrupted than the ones above.

Umbrous would not be a fault (or even noticeable) on a black mouse, but on a red or agouti, it is a kiss of death. Its complicated pattern of inheritance (incompletely dominant, with partial penetrance) makes it very hard to get rid of.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

If I were looking for the best color in a litter, I wouldn't cull at all.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

We do things differently.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Yes, I know. But with the reds, you imported your stock from Europe, and I'd think you'd be more concerned with producing a number of mousies of the desired color for your future breeding. Do you see my reasoning?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Nope. The ones culled were cinnamon. I still have three cinnamon females and one red female, plus the original cinnamon female and two red males, plus other litters which are not yet furred.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I would definately save that red girl from the first litter and breed back to dad.

I have noticed with reds, that they sometimes tend to 'lighten' with age, unlike some other colours which darken, but, even if she is slightly brighter than dad, breeding her back to him will help towards fixing certain modifiers in. And as far as I have read and been told, the deep setter red you have there Jack, requires lots of modifiers to keep it that way, red can be spoiled in one generation and require many more to make it right again.

As for the umbrous looking ones in the other litter, keep them on til adulthood at least, and see how they turn out, they may surprise you! I quite like them actually, the look almost sable like, and i do like sable! LOL

W xx


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## Jemma (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm still a newb at all this but it's interesting to see an umbrous and a non-umbrous red like that - thanks for posting pictures, Jack!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

You're very welcome. 

I will post more in a few days when they're a bit more grown.


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## jusgus (May 7, 2010)

This may be a dumb question but why do they call them red. Beautiful mice either way Jack.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Because they're supposed to be red, like a red headed person or a red setter.

What a lot of people call "fawn," "gold," or "yellow" is not proper show red. It's just a washed-out, watered-down version (sometimes created with the same genes, sometimes not). They still make great pets, of course.

Finnmouse has a good page: http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/red.html


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Why belittle other colors? Really! What's the point of this?! Fawn, gold and yellow are all recognized by some clubs as standard colors, and fine colors they are!

These colors are colors, not just some 'washed out, watered down' anything.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

> These colors are colors, not just some 'washed out, watered down' anything.


Of course they're colors, but washed out versions of the others, such as off-white or eggshell-colored paint can be described as a muddied up version of pure white. "Pure," "watered down," "muddied up," "warm," "cool," and so forth are all ways to describe color. Value and hue are important parts of color: http://char.txa.cornell.edu/language/el ... /color.htm


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Just because you got mousies from Europe doesn't give you the right to put down other colors like this, Jack. So what if you have red meeces? Big deal. It doesn't matter what kind of rodents you have, you will always be small potatoes as long as you continue to try to put down others in order to puff yourself up.

And I'm sure no one else would think that my fawn mousies are 'washed out' or watered down'. It's just a different genotype with different modifiers. Your negativity reflects very poorly on whatever value you may have as a member of this Forum.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I've never denied that I hold high standards for mice. You may choose not to accept my opinions, as is your wont.

To be sure, these mice are poor in other areas--mainly type but also temperament, somewhat. It's a trade-off. You get mice who are the right shade of red, but lack in other areas, or mice who have good type and lack in color, or mice who lack in all those areas except temperament (like yours).

If you cannot use judgment-laden terms such as "good," or "bad," or "too light," or "too dark," or "washed-out," or "rich," there's no point in breeding for show. It's all about getting things right. As many things as possible, not just pet-qualities.

It's fine that you're a pet-breeder, but you may not force your disregard for color (or type, or whatever) on others. We simply do different things with the same species of animals. We actually have more in common than not.



moustress said:


> And I'm sure no one else would think that my fawn mousies are 'washed out' or watered down'.


As I'm sure some people would. They're not even the right color for fawn. And that's ok since you only breed for pets. Do you mind if I create a poll with pictures of your mice asking this very question? I can do it here, on one of my websites, or elsewhere. Or you can do it. Either way, you'll see the same results.



> It's just a different genotype with different modifiers. Your negativity reflects very poorly on whatever value you may have as a member of this Forum.


You're mistaking criticism for negativity. They're not always the same. Without honest (hard to hear, but honest) appraisals and words or terms that some folks don't like (in relation to our standards), the fancy would never advance. We'd all be sitting at home breeding poorly-colored, poorly-typed mice and never showing, never comparing, never exchanging ideas on what the "right" color/shade/body is, and so forth.

I know it hurts to hear that all your hard work isn't what some people (or mouse clubs) want, yet it's the truth and that's ok. If you're confident in your own abilities and accomplishments as a pets-only/hobby breeder, you will take that criticism in the right way (or deflect it all together) since judgments such as "too pale," "too weak," and "too small" don't apply to mice who are pets-only. Uniquely-colored, small mice with modest ears (or whatever the case may be) can make _great_ pets. I've had plenty of them over the years.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Moustress, Jack is a show breeder, as am I. The show standard for a red mouse is a deep, sparkling red with no sootiness. To us, this means that means pale, washed out, yellowy reds are not proper reds because we talk in show terms. This isn't snobbiness in any way, it's because show breeders have _different_ (not necessarily 'better') goals and opinions than pet breeders do. Jack gave an appropriate answer to the question posted as far as I'm concerned.



> Your negativity reflects very poorly on whatever value you may have as a member of this Forum.


Jack was not 'belittling' anyone or their mice, he was merely giving a show breeder's opinion. There is no need to take it so personally and there was certainly no need for this comment.

Sarah.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> These colors are colors, not just some 'washed out, watered down' anything.


Correct terminology is EXTREMELY important. When a colour has a name and a standard, people expect it to look a certain way. To say that a mouse is pale, dark, washed out, too brown, too bright, etc, etc example of it's variety lets people know that yes it has those genes but no it's not the show standard colour.

Say I was a new breeder and, after trawling through the NMC varieties pages and Finnmouse, I had decided on breeding red to show. I don't know anybody in the fancy and I see an advert saying "beautiful red mice for sale". I travel hours to pick them up, get there, and see that the 'reds' in question are in fact bright yellow - I'd think the breeder was either trying to con me because I was a new breeder or they knew next to nothing about mice.

Sarah.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Are you trying to tell me that fawn is not a recognized color? That's completely and utterly absurd! Red is red and fawn is fawn. They are two different colors and as red is not a fawn mouse that is too dark neither is fawn a red that is too light. I am not breeding red meeces. I am breeding fawn meeces. Or maybe they are orange, as they are really quite saturated, and I see now that the AFRMA recognizes orange as a standard color as well. And I don't know what you are implying when you say someone tried to sell you 'red' mousies that were yellow...I've never tried to deceive anyone about what I am trying and not trying to breed. While I may use the term 'red' on occasion when posting pix of my black eyed fawn meeces, that's just because I've been corrected when referring to them as 'fawn'. That's just a difference in nomenclature on your side of the pond.

My fawn, gold, and orange mousies are great examples of America meeces, and their colors are superb. Maybe the name of this Forum should be changed to Show Mouse Forum, so folks who breed normal mousies know not to bother being involved only to be dumped on for not having meeces with huge ears an tails. I am not going to backpedal an inch. It would be very different had I tried to pass my fawn and/or yellow mousies as red. I never did that, and to imply that I did is just plain wrong.

There ought to be a measure of measure of respect reserved for breeders like myself who have achieved their goals with over a decade of work. I try to show respect for what English breeders do even though I don't like the extreme form that show meeces over there have been bred to. It's what you do, and that's OK with me.


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## WNTMousery (Jun 2, 2010)

:shock:

Fawn is a recognized color. It is a *diluted* version of red, even genetically speaking (fawn is red + the pink eye *dilution*).

It isn't a lack of respect for your goals, you are taking what Jack said to describe a color, personally, when it wasn't even directed at you at all.

It is great that you breed pet mice in your own way, but we as exhibition breeders breed to standards which are set forth by the clubs we belong and as such we speak in terms that correlate with our way of breeding. I am sure Jack did not intend for you to feel insulted by his description of the color fawn.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

No one (least of all me or Sarah) is implying that you tried to "pass off" poorly bred mice as show stock on anyone. You simply do what you do, and that is different from what others do.

No one has ever said your mice are not great pets. I've said over and over that I'm sure they are great pets. But they're not show animals, and the way we describe the animals we compete with is not applicable to the animals you breed only for fun/pets.

We're discussing show animals, proper color, and the competition we're a part of, with its own history, its own standards, and its own culture. You're coming from a totally different place--discussing breeding just for cute pets or just for fun. They're two different things. Relax. Obviously it's not very fun if you're getting so worked up about it. 

None of your mice that I have seen are fawn. Some may be "orange" or "gold" by the AFRMA's standards, but I didn't know you're a member or show under them. They don't have the proper type to be shown, anyway. But I'm sure you've worked very hard on them, and I'm sure they make great pets for you (and others).


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Are you trying to tell me that fawn is not a recognized color? That's completely and utterly absurd! Red is red and fawn is fawn. They are two different colors and as red is not a fawn mouse that is too dark neither is fawn a red that is too light. I am not breeding red meeces


Fawn is a recognised colour, I didn't say it wasn't! But I was talking about red mice because that's what this thread is about.



> I don't know what you are implying when you say someone tried to sell you 'red' mousies that were yellow...I've never tried to deceive anyone about what I am trying and not trying to breed.


No... it was a hypothetical situation that I made up to illustrate why using the correct terms and names is so important. I never said you were trying to deceive people.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Fawn may be found with pink eyes, but it isn't a case of it being diluted. Fawn and orange with black eyes show in my litters at just about the same shade. Red is a different genotype; it has modifiers that darken the orange to red, just like the extreme gene gives super dark blacks and the c extreme give extreme dilution of whatever color it works on. Otherwise red would be nothing but an overly dark fawn or orange.

There is no change in phenotype without a change in genotype. To say different is absurd. It's not just a matter of taking it personally (although I do!), it's a matter of what is and isn't technically correct. For Jack to state that fawn, orange, yellow, or any other color is only suitable for pet type meeces is technically wrong and the language he used makes it clear that he was talking down to 'pet type' breeders.

I take exception to being categorized as a breeder of pet mousies; it would take a lot of looking to find a petstore with meeces like most of mine. I have put 12 years effort into the lines that I started, four years on the transgenics, and I am as much a serious breeder as any one of the others in this forum. And it could be argued that some of the folks who show mousies are not actually breeders since they buy show meeces as stock and then bring the offspring to the shows...but let's leave that subject alone for now.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Fawn mice *must* have pink eyes in all clubs except the AFRMA, where it may have either. It must also have good type to be shown, though. Are you a member of the AFRMA?



> There is no change in phenotype without a change in genotype.


This is simply, categorically, 100% untrue. Environment sometimes plays a huge role in appearance, with no change in genotype. Siamese, for example, are dependent upon the environment. There are other examples.



> ...it would take a lot of looking to find a petstore with meeces like most of mine.


Not at all. I've seen or bought them at Animal House in Richmond, Kentucky. They have satin and pe-yellow ("fawn") mice from time to time, as well as many other assorted colors and patterns. So does Pet Paradise in the same city. In Lexington, PETsMART in Hamburg has them nearly all the time, and in Louisville Feeder Supply Store (near SavALot) does as well. You can find any of their addresses or phone numbers online and ask them yourself. And these are only the stores I know of. There are hundreds of others around the country, I'm sure. This is complicated by the fact that a lot of petstore employees don't actually know what they have, in terms of the genetics of mice, but the fact remains that they're very common.

I'm sure your 12 years of work in your mice has meant a lot to you. No one is saying it didn't. What they're all saying is that it's an entirely different matter from what we try to do. It is neither better, nor worse. _It's different_. You've been told this dozens of times. There comes a point where you will no longer be coddled.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

> There is no change in phenotype without a change in genotype. To say different is absurd.


Umm... actually, since phenotype actually means characteristics defined by both genetics and enviroment, enviromental change can have an impact on appearance without any change in genetic structure. So I guess i'm saying different, am I absurd?



> I take exception to being categorized as a breeder of pet mousies; it would take a lot of looking to find a petstore with meeces like most of mine. I have put 12 years effort into the lines that I started, four years on the transgenics, and I am as much a serious breeder as any one of the others in this forum. And it could be argued that some of the folks who show mousies are not actually breeders since they buy show meeces as stock and then bring the offspring to the shows...but let's leave that subject alone for now.


You resent being classed as a 'pet type' breeder, and yet I have seen you again and again apparently 'championing' them. You are rude to people you think are 'talking down to them' and yet you think your above them yourself? Thats just hypocritical.

Quite frankly moustress, I really don't know what you want or expect from this forum. You have been assured again and again that your mice are lovely by various different people, but they are YOUR mice, bred to YOUR standard. Not everybody will love them and appreciate them as much as you do.

Oh and since you have shown on a fair few occassions your open dislike of show standard mice and the show community in general, yes... I recommend you REALLY leave that subject alone, since you wouldn't know what you were talking about anyway.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks y'all, I really appreciate all the support I've gotten here. I'm humbled and gladdened to see like-minded folks. 



> My fawn, gold, and orange mousies are great examples of America meeces, and their colors are superb. Maybe the name of this Forum should be changed to Show Mouse Forum, so folks who breed normal mousies know not to bother being involved only to be dumped on for not having meeces with huge ears an tails. I am not going to backpedal an inch.


There is no such thing as "America meeces." American mice can be large and have excellent type, just as English mice can have poor type and be pet-store derived. You're confusing the distinction between show mice and pet mice. Neither has a nationality per se. There are good and bad examples in each country.

Except for Australia (which has a different situation due to iron-tight laws on importation meant to protect its wildlife), pet mice and show mice are pretty different in every country where there exists a modern mouse fancy.

"Show Mouse Forum" would actually mean the same thing as "Fancy Mice Forum" as the original meaning of fancy when used as "fancy mice" is a hobby wherein animals are bred with specific color, coat, and type goals in mind and where the animals compete. Walter Maxey and his colleagues used "fancy mice" as a way to indicate mice from the mouse fancy (i.e. mice who were bred to standard and shown). A similar usage is around for the cat fancy in modern times. This point of etymology is hard for a lot of folks to understand, since "fancy" has another, non-mouse-related meaning which means frilly, or ornate. This is a very common misconception, particularly in America, but it is not what "fancy mouse" actually means.

For those interested, here are some new pictures of the mice, who are a few days older now.

Non-umbrous:



















Umbrous:



















As you see, the "red" on the umbrous mice is poor, closer to a yellow. Compare that to the red on the one red mouse in the first litter, which is much better in terms of color. It is a richer, warmer, red and has more depth.

To be clear, the way the lighter mice are washed out is not necessarily due to the umbrous. It's probably the fact that they were bred to a black mouse who herself was never bred with red in mind. This demonstrates how easy it is to lose the red color in mice: it only took one generation! As Finnmouse says, once you lose it, it's hard or impossible to get it back the way it was. That's why these mice almost certainly will not be bred from. The line between "poor red" and "poor umbrous" can be very blurry, indeed.

Good mice of any type represent hard work on the part of somebody, somewhere. I'm very glad that there are people who recognize all that hard work for what it is, no matter who it ultimately comes from. And I'm happy to share photographs and descriptions of mice to help add to the overall knowledge of the mouse fancy.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Actually, pet type mousies can be shown, Jack. I've done it and received honorable mention as well as some interesting comments and suggestions.

The breeders who have show type mousies here in the US all have had English show mice in their stock. Only in England has the mouse been bred to the extremes of huge ears and tails. they bear little resemblance to the animals that were brought back from Japan centuries ago.

I'm glad you have your red meeces, Jack; I hope you enjoy them in the full knowledge that no one, not even I, will detract from your enjoyment by putting you down from importing mousies with the right genotype, the genotype that you wanted.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

If you're jealous, just say so. There's no shame in that. I'm extremely jealous of Cait's and Heather's and both Sarahs' _and_ Willow's mice. Among others! 

I offered you descendants of these red mice months ago (including any true fawn descendants), before I ever had them. I have the PMs to prove it.

By the way, there are plenty of American show mice with few or no English-bred relatives. The mouse fancy is active in Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, Poland, and other places as well. Some of these mice have no English-bred relatives for decades. Your contrast between "America meeces" and English mice does not hold up. You likely mean to contrast pet and show, which is a contrast that can be made of mice in almost every country. In other words, the distinction is between the mice, not between the countries in which they were bred.



> Actually, pet type mousies can be shown, Jack. I've done it and received honorable mention as well as some interesting comments and suggestions.


They can be shown only in some pet-oriented clubs (such as the now-defunct MMC, which you're probably familiar with) and in specially-designated pet-classes in other professional clubs (such as ECMA), where they are judged with much, much less scrutiny than exhibition mice. Otherwise, they wouldn't do well at all. I don't know why you'd call your mice "pet type," though when you were objecting so strongly to being called a "pet breeder" just a few minutes ago.

I don't know how long ago it was, but congratulations on your honorable mention! What city was the show in?

Be well!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I only object to the use of the term 'pet type breeder' when it's used as a put down.

Yes, that was very nice of you to offer me a red mousie, Jack. I decided it's not the shade I'm looking for. I'll spend the next couple of decades seeing if I can get the shade of red I want.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

It's not used as a put-down! You've been told that a hundred times!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

It was the bit about how fawn, etc., colors that were watered down versions of red was 'okay for pet type breeders' (yes, I'm too lazy to use quotes) which set me off, It sounds like both a put down of pet breeders and a put down of my favorite color. How else could I have interpreted that?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Not applicable, like everyone else has said! Jeez!



WillowDragon said:


> So I guess i'm saying different, am I absurd?


Of course you are. I am ebil, and you are absurd! :lol:


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Fawn and orange with black eyes show in my litters at just about the same shade. Red is a different genotype; it has modifiers that darken the orange to red


Red is *not* a different genotype, having modifiers for a pale or dark coat does not change the gene. Black eyed dark reds, yellowy reds, orangey reds, are all Ay*, unless you've added blue, chocolate, PED etc. And every club in the world except AFRMA stipulates that fawn must have pink eyes! Call your mice flipping octarine if you like, but you cannot keep misinforming people in this way and haranguing people for using the correct terminology!



> It was the bit about how fawn, etc., colors that were watered down versions of red was 'okay for pet type breeders' (yes, I'm too lazy to use quotes) which set me off, It sounds like both a put down of pet breeders and a put down of my favorite color. How else could I have interpreted that?


I don't know how you read that as a direct attack on you, there are plenty of people on here that breed pet mice. It has been repeatedly said that it was no way a personal attack on you, so for crying out loud just let it go!!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

You're still wrong about red mousies not having different modifiers (genes). The major locus' are all the same, but first, contains b^c (cordovan) and other modifiers as well, I suspect. Didn't we cover this a few months back? Just because something is listed as a modifier instead of a major locus doesn't mean it isn't a different gene.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Yeah, whatever.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Lol!


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## tipex (Jun 21, 2010)

The Standards are that what our country determined. All Country can make here own Standard. The standard helps the judges to evaluate. It's only for the Shows importend.. so the countrys look that the standards are nearly similar with other Standards.....but it can be also different...

And when you have a Ay or ee it is the same of the colors...but Ay it make some fat mice (and diabetes)... and ee make slime healty mice.. The problem is a lot of Countrys don't have a Standards of this varibility:

(yellow) Ay or ee 
(red) Ay bb or ee bb
(dark red) Ay b(c)b or ee b(c)b
(faded yellow) Ay dd or ee dd
(fawn) Ay pp or ee pp

When you understand what the Pigements do...it is easy to know how the colors must look...
Talk soon tipex


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