# Introducing a nanny?



## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

I have two females that recently had litters. Both decided to nest in the same box, so I'm not sure which litter belongs to which female, but both seem to care for them just fine. There's 18 babies in total.

I have another female that I'm considering placing with them, to help out. Figure the extra "mom" could help make sure all of the babies are eating well. Not wanting to cull any right now, but would like to see more growth.

The females were all housed together, until about a week ago. Curious if I could put the other female in without much risk?

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

The nanny isn't really going to make sure they are eating well, she cannot feed them and if they're trying to nurse from her they're not nursing from mom so may get less milk.

It is also a risk that the moms will get aggressive with her or stressed out from it


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> The nanny isn't really going to make sure they are eating well, she cannot feed them and if they're trying to nurse from her they're not nursing from mom so may get less milk.
> 
> It is also a risk that the moms will get aggressive with her or stressed out from it


Gotcha! I'll just let them be. They sure are squeaky little things!

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Also just to add the only way to really see more growth is to cull, babies from bigger litters are always going to be smaller than healthy non runts from litters cut down and they likely won't ever be able to reach the size of a smaller litter even when mature.

(Obviously not trying to push you to cull but if bigger mice is important to you its something to consider)


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> Also just to add the only way to really see more growth is to cull, babies from bigger litters are always going to be smaller than healthy non runts from litters cut down and they likely won't ever be able to reach the size of a smaller litter even when mature.
> 
> (Obviously not trying to push you to cull but if bigger mice is important to you its something to consider)


I've thought about it, but haven't decided on if I want to cull. Once I can figure out the genders, I'll probably cull a few of the bucks. Really trying to get a good number of babies though, as they are for breeding for feeders. There's 18 total, between the two moms. What would you suggest I cull down to? Also, how do I join the culling forum? Would like to read more on the options for humanely culling the babies.

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

I can't speak from personal experience, but a lot of feeder breeders I have talked to have found that the difference they see in the size/quality of the mice they produce for the reptiles goes up a lot if they do cull down even though that means lower numbers but I guess that is just something you'll have to experience with yourself.

I would message SarahC to see about joining the culling forum.

As for how many you should cut them down to a general thing that 4 is the best in terms of size and maturing to that size the fastest, anything above 6 and they just don't catch up in size and 5/6 takes longer to mature to the bigger size.


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> I can't speak from personal experience, but a lot of feeder breeders I have talked to have found that the difference they see in the size/quality of the mice they produce for the reptiles goes up a lot if they do cull down even though that means lower numbers but I guess that is just something you'll have to experience with yourself.
> 
> I would message SarahC to see about joining the culling forum.
> 
> As for how many you should cut them down to a general thing that 4 is the best in terms of size and maturing to that size the fastest, anything above 6 and they just don't catch up in size and 5/6 takes longer to mature to the bigger size.


Thanks! I just took two I believe to be bucks out, may take a few more tomorrow. The litters are mixed up, but I separated them by size as best I could, assuming the smaller ones are from the Agouti (4 days old), large ones from the Black Doe (5 days old). How does their growth look to you?

4 days old









5 days old









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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

They look pretty chubby and healthy bubs 

Its hard to explain the difference in size though without seeing a smaller litter and a large litter side by side so to speak.

Culling down some bucks would probably help though since you don't need many bucks compared to does


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> They look pretty chubby and healthy bubs
> 
> Its hard to explain the difference in size though without seeing a smaller litter and a large litter side by side so to speak.
> 
> Culling down some bucks would probably help though since you don't need many bucks compared to does


Thanks! Both mom's are doing great caring for them. I should have put a quarter in the pic to help distinguish the sizes.

It's a little difficult to sex them. I don't notice too much of a space difference at all between their "bits". I'll keep checking and hopefully I'll get better at it 

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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Ok, I removed 5 babies. I was not sure how to go about culling, so I decided to test something out.

I have the other female(she doesn't have a litter, but did about a week or so ago, but all were fed off) that I was wanting to use as a nanny. Well, I put the 5 babies with her, just to see what she'd do, and if she'd start lactating.

She munched one (it was terrifying...), but has built a little nest for the others. There has been some definite suckling (her teats are engorged).

I've seen this work with rats, so I'm hoping the mice will be similar. I also read an old thread, plus a few other things, about "surrogate" mothers and whatnot.

Guess we'll see how this works. I'll keep an eye on them, and if I see any signs that she's not lactating, I'll remove them and cull. Don't want them to starve, that would just be awful.

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Engorged teats and suckling isn't always a sign of lactating, the babies will latch on and do that even if they are not getting any milk but since she did have a litter recently you may be lucky, hope it goes well


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> Engorged teats and suckling isn't always a sign of lactating, the babies will latch on and do that even if they are not getting any milk but since she did have a litter recently you may be lucky, hope it goes well


Oh, I know! It's just reassuring that she's at least attempting to nurse them. I'm going to watch them closely, and make sure they are actually getting food. Hoping she'll start lactating, especially since she did recently have a litter. Thanks! 

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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Just as an update, I left the 4 bubs with my PEW female last night. They've been with her around 15 hours now. Everyone is still alive, but if she is lactating, it's not much (at least at the moment). She has definitely been nursing them, though. Here are the weights I took to compare.

The average for the Black gals bubs is 4.34 grams (9 of them, 6 days old)
The average for the Agouti gals bubs is 3.29 grams (4 of them, 5 days old)
The average for the hubs with my PEW gal (3 of Agouti's, 1 of Black's) is 2.66 grams (5-6 days old)

The are still alive, and I've heard them squeaking. They wiggle a good bit as well. I'm not sure if I should continue leaving them with my PEW or just go ahead and cull. Thoughts, opinions?

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Personally I would cull, especially if you have reptiles that will take that size so you can freeze for use when you need or use directly


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Yeah, that's what I'll do. Was hoping to get them up to hopper size first, but don't want them to suffer. Thanks!

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