# Unhappy male fox



## Kelley James (Jan 24, 2012)

I havve a little "tuxedo mouse", black back, white belly. He's a cute little guy, I recent;y discovered he had a birth defect - 4 legs & 3 feet. I'm trying to figure out how to take some pics of im, for yo'all to see.

I seperated him out, I've held him & tried to keep him safe, but he seems miserable. I finally gave up & put him back in with his sibs & "cousins" (not related, just a way to describe the 2nd cage of young.)

Aside from the deformity, he seems healthy. He was a happy go lucky little guy, & I want that attitude back for him, I want him to be happy, because that's about all he's going to have. He can't be allowed to mate, & I worry about him being picked on by other mice.

I know they are resilient, but I don't want him to have to face hardship with this challange. I'm afraid for him & don't know how to keep him safe, if I put him back & leave him. But he's about 6 months old, so maybe he can survive amongst his compadres...

I feel so badly for him. I'm not big on crying, but this & a case of hydrocephally awhile ago really get me. Every stupid thing I've done that's hurt one of my babies, or if I didn't notice one & something happened to it, anything, just breaks my heart. Everytime I think I've fixed one risk, or become aware of one risk, another rears it's head. And I'm not unsafe, unthinking, or uncaring of their fate.

So this is as much for me as it is my special friend. I want my happy-go-lucky buddy back, for his sake more than anything else.

Ideas, anyone?


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## Kelley James (Jan 24, 2012)

Kelley James said:


> I have a little "tuxedo mouse", black back, white belly. He's a cute little guy, I recent;y discovered he had a birth defect - 4 legs & 3 feet. I'm trying to figure out how to take some pics of im, for yo'all to see.
> 
> Ideas, anyone?


Oops, that should have been 4 feet & 3 legs. One leg seems to come off the shoulder. I'm researching why, because first first litters of the first generation of unrelated mice have a defect.

I was raising them for feeders, & fell in love & changed my mind. I'm worried that they were exposed to somethign that caused abnormal skeletal development while the egg developed, then later the fetus.

Obviously, even if I wanted to feed them to my snakes, I couldn't. There's no telling what the chemicals might do to an egg layer of any kind.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Male mice need to live alone anyway, so just seperate him into a small secure cage with lots of nice soft bedding and let him live a happy life.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Wow, I really want to see pics...


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## mousery_girl (Nov 13, 2011)

how can he had 4 feet and three legs?!


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

She means that one leg is shortened and the foot kind of begins where the shoulder would be, I think.


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

Pictures? I'm curious.

Aside from that, mice are very good at adapting. I bet he will do just fine- rats can function within just days of having an amputation, and your mouse has never known any different, so he is not feeling the same sort of loss you feel, since you know how it is to have all your limbs.

Don't worry about him.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I would very much like to see photos of this mouse. It could be saved to help someone later who may have a mouse with a similar problem.

As long as he lives in his own tank, with no other mice, and has all the food water and bedding he needs, he should remain happy. Just keep an eye on his leg, in case it one day starts to bother him


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## Kelley James (Jan 24, 2012)

Rhasputin said:


> I would very much like to see photos of this mouse. It could be saved to help someone later who may have a mouse with a similar problem.
> 
> As long as he lives in his own tank, with no other mice, and has all the food water and bedding he needs, he should remain happy. Just keep an eye on his leg, in case it one day starts to bother him


I'm very sad. I found him in dead this afternoon when I woke up (Day sleeper - more on that later)

I was trying to keep him in his own tank, but he looked miserable. I started with a small tank, about 12L X 6W X 5D. He seemed happy & content. When I cleared the turtle tank, (which has an aquatic level & a basking level, with a short connecting ramp) I moved him there with an unrelated, age appropriate companion - a little male, a very mellow male, & a mite smaller.

He started looking miserable within 24 hrs. I gave him a few days to adjust, I watched constantly, except when I was sleeping. They never fought, there was never a cross word between _them_. Any time I heard a ruckus I checked & could always identify who was being snarky, & it was the females w/babys, whom I have started seperating, to keep them from multiplying uncontrollably, especially with some issues I'm investigating. Issues like wanting to know if there was a reason for 2 unrelated birth defects in 2, first litters, first generation litters, from absolutely unrelated bucks & does/dams.

Because he was miserable I removed his companion, in case there were dominance issues I was missing. I gave him time to adjust, he still looked miserable. I put him back in his small cage, thinking maybe he would become happier again, alone, in his small cage - perhaps he was (just) having anxiety (of his own) over having lots of space. I gave him a few days to adjust & he was still unhappy. _As a last resort, _I put him back with his previous companions, where he had been okay for the 4 or 5 months of his life. I hoped he would perk up, feel happier in surroundings he was most familier with. Nothing had changed, there were no new mice since I removed him. His cage-mates, (unrelated 'cousins'), & sibs, seemed happy to to see him. (I mean, as 'happy' as a mouse can seem when greeting a mouse returning home). No one aggressed against him, no one was snarky, they checked him out & didn't bother him. He was curled-up with 2-3 of his sibs when I went to bed.

I originally moved him (with a companion), to the larger cage, partialy because I needed to see how mobile he was, partially because I wanted him _using_ his legs. I had some concerns for his welfare. I knew he had grown to adulthood, _with_ the infirmity, but was still scared to leave him in a community tank with the rest of the colony. (I have probably 20 mice in a 40 gallon tank, with 3 levels I've put in, places to hide, toys to play with, food, water) 3 levels, lots of places to dig around & scavenge, or tunnel, or make his own nest. Lots off bedding, lots of nesting materials. I have a 90 gallon tank, too. (I'm slowly adopting mice to schools, friends, anyone who won't kill them).

(I started seperating the females as they started getting pregnant, I expected to feed them before that, but in letting them get size appropriate for the snakes, I fell in love. Now I won't feed them to the snakes, I won't sell them to anyone who'll feed them to the snakes & I'm looking for homes for all but my special animals)

I have some very bad pictures of my boy, sitting on my hand. I don't know if they'll be good enough. I can take some of him, now, without a problem. I felt like part of his leg was missing. The paw was an appendage which had limited functionality, except for balance, & limited use, like washing.

I put him back in with the colony, I watched for 3+ hrs, there were no dust-ups. He was cuddled up with at least 2 other mice, when I finally laid down to sleep. He seemed content, on his way to being happy again.

I went to bed about 0700 pacific time, (I'm a day sleeper, primarily. As a consequence I can sit up, watch my mice, play with them when they are awake, do any cage cleaning wihout disturbing their wake/sleep cycle, thnigs like that.

I woke up about noon, I've been sick, so I'm not sleeping deeply, it was quiet all "night".

I found him, he had managed to get himself into a space he couldn't get out of. I've seen mice die of fright, usually after they got loose in the house & trapped where they couldn't get away, so I think he died of a heart attack.

There wasn't a mark on him. No blood, no nips on his hind-end, no places where there were saliva "stains" on his hind end, nothing, & I know what they look like. There was a post mortum mark, but no blood. I've worked with people and animals, I know what 'cleaned up' blood looks like. There wasn't any.

I feel pretty awful. I feel like, if I'd just left him alone to begin with, he'd be okay. It really bothers me. I really beat myself up about things like this. Anything that could crush a mouse, accidently, is secured & elevated, so it can't be set down on him, nor excavated to the point that it collapses & crushes him, & somehow he got himself stuck against the side-wall of the tank, up behind the long cardboard box that I put in (secured & elevated) to give them a place to go. They can safely hide inside it it, under it, around or against it, (I use a 12-pack can box. I have one in each of the tanks my mice are in, & replace them about every 10-14 days, because they tend to get chewed, wet on, walked on the tops of, I keep a food bowl in the bottom of the cage & one on the top of the long box.)

As far as restricting my males 1 per cage, I put them together young. I leave them with their mothers for as long as I can, then I raise them from just after they wean until I remove them for pets, or am faced by trying to choose who will die today to feed a snake, which I'm finding too traumatic for ME (I feed fresh kills, not live, but I haven't got a CO2 chamber, I use dry ice, as it sublimates). As soon as I replace my fridge I'm going to feed frozen, extra-large adults. I've been rescuing albino snakes, to prevent their release into the wild. All of them are nearing 4 feet long. I also have a 7 foot carpet python, also a rescue, possibly hybrid, 'cuz @7 feet he's 2 feet longer than the average male Irian Jaya Carpet Python.

I haven't had any appreciable problems. If I have a male that's a bully, I pull _him_ & segregate _him_ with a companion he _can_ get along with. I find mice can, & do, live cooperatively, & I've done a lot of soul searching, (& no small amount of research) because I want what's best for them, I _want them _happy. I don't consider leaving them, solo, a natural, happy way for them to live, so I carefully manage them, watch them closely, stop any fights that last longer than a couple squeeks. I have to let them have their minor dust-ups & disagreements, in order to establish dominance. Once they have their dominance order figured out, they get along just fine with minimal intervention on my part. I find that if I interefer too much _I_ harm their social order & well being. Since I'm mostly homebound, I'm there during all their waking hours, & most of their sleeping hours, so I can keep a very close eye on them.

I am, however, willing to listen, learn, & change the things I _really_ need to change. As I said, their safety, health, & happiness matter a great deal to me. I'm just trying to keep them as holistically as I can. I _think_ I'm using that word the way I mean to. I'm trying to let them be happy, healthy, mice, in their own community.

I'll post some post mortem pics. I was trying to do some live video, of him walking, & get some pics of his legs, so people would have a good understanding of his ppossible limitations, so I could get the best advice.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Males will ALWAYS fight and kill. All male mice should be housed seperatly. Mice don't act miserable because they are unhappy...they act miserable because they are sick or dying. It's particularly bad that you left him in with the other males. As a weakened animal, others will try to eliminate him. You could be very wrong about thinking he did not die because of trama...it could have been internal and you would never know it. You need to seperate mice if you really want to take proper care of them. 
And you can't really keep an eye on your mice. You just can't. The battles last for seconds, by the time you hear the squeak, it's over. And you have to sleep and go to the bathroom sometimes. 
If you really love your pets then treat them properly and seperate the males ASAP.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

While I think you can keep your mice however you see fit if you aren't actively having problems and know your lines, I definitely agree that this particular mouse was sick-not sad. Mice don't really feel the full gammut of emotions that we do and their lives are based quite a bit more on survival and instinct. Any expression of "sad" behaviors are usually signs of sickness.

You may want to seperate your pregnant females out from each other if they are snarking and fighting- it could lead to canniballism or baby snatching.

About the males---they are territorial by nature. They DO want their own space most of the time. There is absolutely no harm in housing males alone, and you'd be hard pressed to find a fancier one that agrees with your current thinking. 
I think what might be going on is that you are personifying your mice tooo much. Think of your dear mice more as animals with insticts and specific behavioral patterns than as little humans, hard as it may be for all of us it's really more helpful in the long run.

That being said, I am sorry for your loss and if you wish to take a post mortem picture, I think we'd still appreciate it and be able to add it to our mouse problems thread.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

My guess is that he likely had some other internal deformity you couldn't see that was his demise. 
Poor thing. 

but yes, for future reference you cannot keep males together.


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