# Questions about dog and cat foods



## Awaiting_Abyss (Nov 19, 2012)

Since I switched my dogs and cats to a better food, I've been feeding their old foods to my mice in their mix. However, I'm a bit concerned. The main reason I stopped feeding my dogs and cats these brands is because it includes "animal meal, meat meal, meat and bone meal, meat by-products, etc;" all of these things can include euthanized dogs and cats in them along with the chemical that was used to euthanize those dogs and cats. I'm concerned about that euthanizing chemical harming my mice if they happen to eat some of it (the euthanizing chemical is not altered with the cooking process of the food so it is still active). I do not want this harming my mice- and not to mention the preservatives and dyes that are also harmful.

Should I instead be feeding my mice some of the food I have my dogs and cats on now but just feed them less of it? It is 4Health dog and cat food. I feed the kind with rice in it, but it does not contain corn, wheat or soy. The ingredients in it is all named: chicken, turkey, beef, etc. My malamute is currently eating the puppy formula, but I will be switching him to the performance adult formula of 4Health. My chihuahua is on small bites adult formula.

Here are links to all of the foods and their ingredients.

Small Bites Formula Dog Food:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/4 ... s-5-lb-bag

Performance Adult Formula Dog Food:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/4 ... -35-lb-bag

Puppy Formula Dog Food:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/4 ... _vc=-10005

Which sounds like it would be better to add to my mix?


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## mich (Sep 28, 2013)

No I wouldnt feed them cat and dog food. The only recommended dog food for mice is a dog biscuit.
Which they can chew on.


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## Awaiting_Abyss (Nov 19, 2012)

Just a quick google search about BHA came up with this:

"Butylated Hydroxyanisole (BHA) and Butylated Hydroxytoluene (BHT):
Researchers report BHA in the diet of pregnant mice results in brain enzyme changes in their offspring including a 50% decrease in brain cholinesterase, which is responsible for the transmission of nerve impulses. BHA and BHT also affect the animals sleep, levels of aggression, and weight. The authors of the study speculate that BHA and BHT can affect the normal sequence of neurological development in young animals too."

"BHA (butylated hydroxyanisole) has been shown to cause cancer in rats, mice, and hamsters."

-On a funny side note.. my husband says I'm becoming obsessed with food quality. I've been checking the ingredients of everything I buy.


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## Serena (Dec 29, 2011)

Really, in america they can use euthanized pets in petfood? that's seriously wrong on so many levels.

Concerning chemicals in general: You always have to consider the concentrations in which a chemical is shown to have a harmful effect. Pretty much anything can harm you if you get enough of it- even plain water.
I don't know which concnetrations this study used and which they would get from food. it is totally ok if you want to be on the safe side- I'd probably do the same

The small bites formula dog food sounds really good. I have a similar one (german brand) for my mice. It is a good source of animal protein, easy to store and they like eating it. As long as you don't keep them solely on this dogfood, there shouldn't be a problem with the protein-content or anything else. I like giving kibble to my pregnant and lactating females since it's easy to feed and it doesn't spoil (or runs away, like mealworms  ). I haven't had any problems so far, and on this board many others feed dog kibble to their mice and haven't reported negative effects (at least I haven't read any)


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

Euthanaised animals by injections are not allowed into the food chain either human or animal in the UK.

I use dog and cat kibble but always check the labelling and avoid any that contain Butylated Hydroxyanisole (BHA) and Butylated Hydroxytoluene (BHT) with no ill effects so far.

I do not think it makes any difference as to which brand you use if avoid known harmful ingredients as the process and basics is the same for all even the so called healthy feeds. Even veggie diets may contain harmful residues of pesticides that may not have been totally removed during the washing process let alone the chemicals used to preserve them longer on the shelf and the amount of GM foods now appearing.

Mice are clever animals they will eat a small amount initially and if it causes them any ill effects will in the majority of cases avoid eating it again. Many generations has caused the mice to have an in built system to avoid the really harmful foods now and as such even poisons to eradicate wild mice and rats are having to be changed as either they refuse to eat the bait or have become immune to it.

Like us humans we have our favourite food and other types we know are safe to eat but don`t like and those we know are poisonous to us. Children are a good example of this as many hate vegetables yet they are good for us, also depending on age many will attempt to eat anything they see as potential food.

The only safe food of nutritional value would be the rodent blocks but then the ingredients within those may also contain GM products now.

All pet food manufacturers will have the experience of producing quality safe products for their intended purpose. Unfortunately we tend to feed our mice foods that have not been packaged specifically for mice but either mix our own or use bases designed for another animal, nutrition breakdown for a mouse is different to that for a rat or hamster and as such manufacturers like all businesses look at profit margins, the number of people keeping pet mice is considerably less than those with rats or other rodents, and is considerably insignificant to that of dogs and cats.

I am sure that the USA like the UK will have such manufacturing under legislation if not that then no manufacturer is going to place itself in a position whereby it is open to be sued due to incorrect nutritional specifications of a product they produce.

Your concerns with what the contents of the food are in its basic raw ingredients rather than general terms can be resolved with a simple letter to the company quotling your concerns, the reply would me most interesting especially as you have stated they use euthanaised dog and cats a reply from them stating they don`t and if found out later they do would again open them up to swarm of legalalities.

Make your own mix from raw ingredients again one has to look at if you are qualified to meet the min nutritional requirements of the animals feed, are the raw ingredients free from any contamination or other genetically modification. Trusting a distrubutor of grains is what is required but nothing is stopping that supplier from selling you raw materials that to their knowledge is uncontaminated as this can is something no one can do as even grains straight from the field may be contaminated from wild animals.

The easiest way of knowing what to feed your animals and in what quantities is to look at labels and ask questions regarding the contents within forums and other animal owners, any additional information can be obtained from manufacturers/distributors of the feed. Swapping diets drastically on any animal may also cause health problems and as such before doing so veterinary advice should be sought, what is good for one individual may not be good for another and only by a professionally qualified person can advise to each individual animal after examination.


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## Awaiting_Abyss (Nov 19, 2012)

Unfortunately they do put euthanized dogs and cats in most of the cheap dog/cat foods in the US. They also do it in some other countries, but I couldn't tell you which other countries. I know that some dog food companies may not even know since they get the "animal meal" product from a rendering company, but the euthanizing chemical has actually been found in some of the cheapest foods.

It actually will work out well for me to feed my mice on the small bites formula. My chihuahua eats so little that the food usually goes stale before he can finish it.

I feel like feeding my mice the left over cheap dog food might have caused the tumors that just appeared in two of my mice. I never had any issues with tumors before. :/

@Mich: I don't feed my mice just dog or cat food. They eat mostly straights and seeds the dog food is added in with it.


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

Tumours in mice is not uncommon and I believe that all living creatures carry the cancer gene within their makeup lying dormant its just a matter of what triggers it in each individual, research has shown that excessively feeding mice corn will cause tumours also, again the cheap dog and cat food are generally maize based so feeding just that would if research is to believed cause all the mice to have tumours.

Some strains are more prone to tumours than others and accurate record keeping will help in selecting those that are not prone, besides possible trigger being food environmental issues are also known to cause tumours within all animals and as such would be extremely difficult to pinpoint the primary factor.

I am quite surprised that the USA actually permit the use of euthanaised animals to go into the food chain as surely feeding same to other animals and the retention of the euthanaising chemical will eventually build up in said animals and basically reach the toxic level to put healthy loved pets into a state that would be irreversible.

One also has to be careful of what one reads especially over the internet as one isolated report like what you have mentioned may have been placed just to scare monger and if one continues to do ones research into the issue find it is totally unfounded and was placed on the internet by a disgruntled employee or by someone just being malicious.

Like my previous post one could try finding out what the raw materials are that go into the animal meal initially via the manufacturer of the feed and then the rendering companies if not supplied with all the information. A starting point may even be local veterinary practices and asking what they do with the euthanaised animals that are not given back to owners for burial.

You have certainly given me more things to do in my already busy daily schedule as I would like to find out the truth of animal feeds now and will be contacting an animal feed manufacturer here in the UK that I have dealt with for many years.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Euthanised animals are not allowed to be used in rendering, which is typically cows, horses, alpacas, llamas, goats, etc. Farm animals. To qualify for rendering, the animal has to have died naturally (no poisons, no disease, no euthanasia). That's simply fearmongering to try to get you to buy incredibly expensive dog food. If you're really concerned, buy a food that has all the ingredients listed very explicitly, and go for the highest protein percentage you can find, so that you're feeding as little as possible of the other stuff. I'm currently feeding Taste of the Wild (yes, I feed my mice Bison), but I'm about to switch to EVO Weight Management so that I can up the protein percent of the kibble and thus have to use less kibble. It turns out it's cheaper per pound of protein in the bag to buy the nice stuff, so why not?


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

Laigie that is what I also understand plus any animals that have been treated with medication for a certain time prior to death must also not be included. The laws within the UK are quite strict and would assume the same would be true in the USA.

To my knowledge the only difference between animals being used for human consumption and those to be used for animal feeds is the presence of a fully qualified veterinary surgeon at point of slaughter to ensure animal is humanely slaughtered. After slaughter the same laws apply no matter where the finished product is destined, hygiene standards etc. with thorough quality control being carried out throughout the processing.

You are correct in fear mongering seems to be the main as it was with the extruded cereal meal in dog and cat food being harmful to reptiles if the rodents were fed on it, in particular the red coloured ones.

Are the big meal producers that afraid of the smaller company, having such a drastic impact on their profit margin, economic climate has a bearing on all businesses and those willing to offer a good product at a competitive price will prevail. Expensive is not always the best in todays market place many companies have sourced cheaper raw materials for their product in the hope of remaining in business, whether they change back to original suppliers for the quality is another matter as at the end of the day profit margins is all they care about and if using cheaper raw materials can maintain or improve profit I can not see them reinstating the dearer one, unless the buyers continue to use the product without complaint.

One only has to look at the feeder breeder business to notice that additional profit is being made where none is really justified, pinkies versus fluffs costs nothing more on the part of the breeder as the mouse is feeding both it only increases food intake once the babies start to eat solids. Yet here in the UK trade price of £0.02p difference between them same amount of packaging is used, maybe its due to having to go back to same cage and remove a few days later but that can be remedied by better management and only remove once leaving litters in situ until cleaning and then removing surplus allowing others to remain for as long as necessary.


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## pauly (Feb 21, 2013)

pro-petz said:


> Laigie that is what I also understand plus any animals that have been treated with medication for a certain time prior to death must also not be included.]
> As someone who has been farming for the last thirty years, I'm afraid that's not the case. Cattle, pigs & sheep , routinely go the slaughter house when they have been treated by a vet & they aren't getting any better. The general rule is , if they can walk in themselves. Also, remember, all cattle that are reactors under the TB testing scheme go into the human food chain.


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## Awaiting_Abyss (Nov 19, 2012)

The euthanasia chemical has actually been found in food.

On the FDA website it states that meat is always considered safe so it isn't checked. I've done my research on this and I will believe it because it is the truth. No, not all rendering plants do this and not all vets and shelters get rid of their bodies in this way.


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

Pauly any animal can be slaughtered in a slaughter house whether it walks in or not. No animal can enter the human food chain unless a vet is present at time of slaughter. An animal that has had medication should not enter the human food chain until a certain time frame has passed from last medication but the carcass can still be used for other things. Not knowing the rules and regulations set out for slaughter houses am unable to comment on time frames and particular medications if any are permitted into the human food chain.

Farmers are very quick at deciding if an animal is worth the expense of long term medication especially as the cost of such are constantly rising, does not the animal record not also be required by the slaughter house so that appropriate paperwork involving the animal is passed onto the appropriate governmental department, including the certificate of slaughter.

As for the initial op reporting of euthanaised animals being in the food chain could that not be like we had with horse meat entering the UK food market via importing of such and the unscrupulous persons behind it, which I hope has now been eradicated and measures set up to prevent it from happening again. I am sure that for the FDA to have made a report about it then it should not have been allowed in the first place and again unscrupulous persons at work trying to make extra profit for themselves.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

there isn't a vet present at licensed slaughter houses when animals are dispatched.Who could have faith in what really goes on behind closed doors anyway?I only buy British meat and was more than horrified to find out that setting aside the fact that I choose not to eat horse,animals slaughtered in Europe,particularly Eastern Europe with it's awful unregulated practices were being passed off as British and I might unwittingly have bought it.Hot on the heels of that scandal came the revelation of horse tranquiliser in the food chain.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 9372,d.d2k


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