# Healing wounds without creams?



## NuttySian

Right, this might be long so I apologise in advance but I thought it would help to write everything down!

When I got my male he had wounds from fighting with his previous cage mate. His face ones were still open but the big ones on his side were healing fine.

Got him home, moved him onto carefresh (he was on something that looked like gravel :? ) his face ones healed but the big ones opened up again and got infected.

Took him to the vets and he had a dose of spot on (he had more in the weeks after to finish the course which did help stop him scratching as much) and they gave us baytril. While he was having the baytril he stayed in the part of his cage that only has fleece and started healing again but when he went back onto the carefresh it all flared up again!

I got rid of the carefresh and took him back to the vets. They gave more baytril and intrasite gel. He HATED the gel as did we, it wouldn't spread properly and made him scratch like mad. We stopped using it and used sudocream instead which he didn't mind as much.

We've now stopped that and he's finished the baytil, the problem is he's still healing and it's taking ages. There's no infection and it definitely is healing, he has fur growing back and everything but he still scratches a little which messes up the process again, I know once they start it's very hard for them to stop.

The smaller wound was almost gone but over one night he must have had a mad scratching spree as when I woke up it was open again and had gotten bigger!

What I want to know is if there's anything I can do to help him heal faster that doesn't involve putting anything on the wound as even though he liked the sudocream it still made him scratch more than leaving him alone does.

I bought some of those tesco anti allergy tablets with loratadine but I'm not sure how to use them. I thought they would be worth a try to try and stop the scratching even if it only stops a little bit more of it. He weighs about 33g.

Thanks in advance. I've probably missed something out.. if there's anything else you need to know just ask!


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## Kallan

The dose of loratidine is 1/3 tablet daily for that size of mouse, maybe you could grind it up and put it in a grape or something? Ask zany_toon, she always manages to medicate her meeces!


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## NuttySian

Thanks! Trouble is he doesn't like "wet" foods. I've given him fruit, veggies, chicken, porridge etc and he doesn't eat any of them :? 
He loves anything dry though so I could mix it with water, let some bread soak it up then let that dry out a bit and give it to him that way.


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## zany_toon

I grind tablets and put it on a digestive biscuit  Out of all the mice I've had to medicate (and Kallan will tell you there have been more than a few) only one refused to take his meds that way and he was a really jumpy little boy that hadn't been handled at all and I'd only had him one day. If you put a tiny drop of water on the biscuit so that it goes slightly soggy then crush the tablet on top it will stop any of it falling off. If he won't eat the soggy biscuit you can still put use it dry but put the crushed tablets on the broken side of the biscuit so that it has something to hold it in place. Try to make the bit of biscuit as small as possible to make sure that he eats it all in one go to get the benefit of his meds! My mice see biscuit as the perks of falling ill. Failing that a little dab of jam or honey seems to work with mine as well.


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## NuttySian

Brilliant thanks! Will start him on it today. I know he'll probably never completely stop scratching but hopefully the tablets will cut it down a bit more. He's a lovely happy boy I just wish he'd heal quicker!


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## zany_toon

Let me know if it works, and I've got my fingers crossed that he heals soon x x


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## NuttySian

Will do and thanks x

I keep trying to get pics so I have proof it's getting better and it's not just me thinking it but he's very camera shy :lol:


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## zany_toon

Thing is as long as you can see a difference that's all that counts!! It's really hard to break the habit of scratching. The only way I could get two of my boys to stop scratching was to swap their cages (they'd only been in them for about 10 minutes after cleaning so I figured it was worth a try) so that they were to busy nosing around and trying to figure out where the "intruder" was to bother with scratching for a while :lol:


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## moustress

For chronic scratchers I use liquid diphenhydramine (generic name for Benadryl), the red stuff made for dosing children, 1 tsp/8 oz. water, right in the water bottle. I've kept meees on this for a couple of months at a time, and it sorks prettty well with no side effects that I've noticed.


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## WillowDragon

Also be aware that scratching can become obsessive... so even when things have cleared up, every now and again old wounds will reopen simpley because the mouse has become so used to scratching that it never stops.
I believe hamsters are quite known for this behavior too.

W xx


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## NuttySian

zany_toon said:


> they were to busy nosing around and trying to figure out where the "intruder" was to bother with scratching for a while :lol:


:lol: invaders! Jaq has some treat sticks, a healthy plant thingy one (I'm so technical haha) and then a "naughty" one which keep him busy most of the time, he's quite a slow eater too which helps! I've only got the one male at the moment, maybe I could use this as an excuse to get another so I can keep them busy like yours? 



moustress said:


> For chronic scratchers I use liquid diphenhydramine (generic name for Benadryl), the red stuff made for dosing children, 1 tsp/8 oz. water, right in the water bottle. I've kept meees on this for a couple of months at a time, and it sorks prettty well with no side effects that I've noticed.


Thanks for that. Will get some of that too in case the tablets don't help.



WillowDragon said:


> Also be aware that scratching can become obsessive... so even when things have cleared up, every now and again old wounds will reopen simpley because the mouse has become so used to scratching that it never stops.
> I believe hamsters are quite known for this behavior too.
> 
> W xx


Yep it does seem to be habit now. Silly boy. At least it's not like it was, he looked like he was trying to scratch all his skin off at one point!
I've not seen it before in the hams but this is the first time I've had a rodent allergic to a bedding too! Seems I've been quite lucky.

This is the last pic I took of him, I feel so bad seeing him like it but he doesn't seem to care. He moves around fine, eats like a pig all be it a slow one lol and is a lovely friendly boy.


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## zany_toon

NuttySian said:


> I've only got the one male at the moment, maybe I could use this as an excuse to get another so I can keep them busy like yours?


Sounds like a plan if you ask me!! :lol: Or if you have some girls around swap him into their cages - I'm sure that will please him no end :lol:

I've had a mouse allergic to bedding as well and ended up having to use an old hand towel as bedding for him. Needless to say we went through a lot of towels when he discovered that he could make a hole in it and hide under the towel 

Poor little guy! It looks painful and almost as bad as poor marx was  I hope he's okay


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## NuttySian

Ewww no not a smelly boy in their cage! :lol:

Jaq wraps himself in the fleece, he looks like an odd version of a sausage in bacon! 

I know they don't show pain much but he was miserable when it was at its worst, he's nothing like that any more so hopefully it isn't too bad!


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## zany_toon

*returning the favour for Jaq* :gwavec Get well soon :gwavec Get well soon!!!


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## NuttySian

he thanks you very much!

I got everything ready last night then popped a tablet out and realised I have no idea how to cut it best! Normally we just use a knife down the middle but we've never needed anything in thirds before, and they're tiny.

So zany, *asks all creme egg advert way* how do you cut yours?!


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## zany_toon

I asked my vet for a pill cutter  They were really nice and gave it to me for free when I spent 10 minutes talking about how concerned I was that my animals get the right dose...:lol: I think they were desperate to get rid of me!!


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## Kallan

LOL zany! 

You can also grind it into a powder and split the powder three ways. Mind you don't sneeze though!


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## NuttySian

:lol: zany. Thanks, I think that's one of the few things we don't have though! Will have to get one.

Thanks Kallan, will do it that way for now (or all the time, will see which works out best) Haha, maybe _I_ wont do it then, have been sneezing a bit lately. It seems I'm not so happy with carefresh either! :x


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## NuttySian

Have been having a look around for liquids in case the tablets don't work or I totally stuff up the whole getting it into 1/3 :lol: and I can't find anything with diphenhydramine in. 
All the benadryl I've looked at has cetirizine hydrochloride as does just about everything else that doesn't have loratadine in while piriton has chlorphenamine maleate.

:? is there actually any difference between any of them?


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## zany_toon

:? No idea!!!


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## Kallan

Yup there are differences. Each drug will be structurally different and have different profiles for clearance, metabolism and toxicity.

After an hour of searching, the only dose I can find for cetirizine is around 3mg/kg, which works out as 0.01mg per mouse. What is the concentration of drug on the bottle?


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## NuttySian

Aww thank you! *gives cookies for all the searching*

It says it's 5mg of it per 5ml. That's the kids version.

Edit: Forgot to say, I got the first dose of tablet into him  He took it well, on a biscuit. I'd left it a big soggy though which he wasn't sure of so tonight I'll make sure it's totally dry.


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## Kallan

That would be 0.01ml per mouse then, preferably at night. Maybe too small a dose to do easily.

How about butter or jam on the biscuit to hold the powder on it?


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## NuttySian

Wow teeeeeny amount!

Trouble is he always drops his food a few times when eating, so there's a chance he'll drop it and it'll get wasted. He's started wanting to come out again though so I could do it that way, keep him in a clean tub while he eats it. 

It was easier than I thought it would be, I managed to snap it into the right amount quite well. I put it on the biscuit then put a drop of water on and smushed it in :lol: If only all tablets smushed as easily.


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## zany_toon

Glad he took the tablet on the biscuit  If he doesn't like the biscuit soggy, and won't try wet foods like jan or honey on it you could try a custard cream. A bit of the biscuit and just a tiny smidge of the cream part. I ran out of digestives last night when giving Scramble his tablet and used the custard cream - cream part was gone in 2 seconds and the biscuit is still there :lol:


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## NuttySian

:shock: Give him MY custard creams?! It's a good thing I adore him :lol:

Will get it done a bit earlier tonight so it has more time to dry and see what happens. If not I'll sacrifice my precious biscuits :lol:

Also forgot to say earlier that this area:










Is now completely back to fur  Only a small bit but still progress!


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## zany_toon

:dance Hey any improvement is still an improvement


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## CatWoman

NuttySian said:


> Ewww no not a smelly boy in their cage! :lol:


If he's anything like the boys around here, just put him down wind of the girls cage.. :shock: :lol:


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## NuttySian

If the tablets work how long should it be before I see a change in him or does it vary?



CatWoman said:


> If he's anything like the boys around here, just put him down wind of the girls cage.. :shock: :lol:


:lol: I do wonder actually if he knows what a girl is. I think the people I got him from only had males so the last time he probably smelt one properly was ageessss ago!


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## NuttySian

The little sod has figured out what's going on, he wont take a biscuit at all now and wont take his bacon flavour thingies unless the tablet isn't in there, I assume he can smell it.

So tonight my custard creams will be sacrificed :lol: and tomorrow I will browse the shops for anything else that might work in case he cottons on to the custards too! :roll:


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## Kallan

Can you get peanut butter in the UK?


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## The Village Mousery

yep my mice love it sticky yummyness


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## Kallan

Where do you get it?


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## NuttySian

Yep we can get smooth and crunchy, we usually just grab the Tesco version.
It's just the "wet" part of it still. He's so fussy lol. I'll try him with it again though in case he's changed his mind.


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## The Village Mousery

the supermarket lol near the nutella and jam and chocolate spread


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## NuttySian

Right, he now has custard creams, jammy dodgers, a jar of honey, a squeezy thing of jam and 3 little jars of paste in beef, chicken and salmon flavours. At least one of them has to tempt him!! :lol:


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## zany_toon

Kallan said:


> Where do you get it?


Tesco had it last week on the back shelves near the home baking and sugar products. Depending on who is packing the shelves though it can also be in with the jam and preserves :roll:

:lol: Sounds like you have plenty of options to tempt him NuttySian!! If those don't work, cake mix will - I've just found out my sister (wh oat 24 should know better) has been giving a couple of my boys and the ASFs a lick of cake mix off her finger when she has been baking cakes to order. Apparantly "They all love it, I have to shake them off my finger because they try to eat that too." If they end up fat she better run....cos if I catch her she's getting fed to the mice!!`


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## NuttySian

:lol: oops. Naughty sister.

Jammie Dodger 1 - Me and Jaq 0. Why me too? Because I'd forgotten how crumbly the biscuit is and sticky the jam is so made quite a mess :lol: But it got it in him so yay!


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## zany_toon

I sense that the Great Jammie Dodger Debacle may be upon us :lol: As long as it means Jaq takes his medicine!


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## NuttySian

:lol: :lol: He took it again fine last night and I made less mess so it's so far so good!


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## zany_toon

Jammie Dodgers 1.5: Nutty Sian 0.5 :lol:


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## NuttySian

Dodgers 1.5 Me 1.5! Mwahaha. No mess and it was all eaten. :lol:


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## zany_toon

NuttySian said:


> Dodgers 1.5 Me 1.5! Mwahaha. No mess and it was all eaten. :lol:


 Even better :lol:


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## NuttySian

The sod has figured it out and wont eat the jam now, only the biscuit! :roll: Got tonights in him but will have to try a different bribe tomorrow :lol:


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## zany_toon

He is a smart alec isn't he? :lol:

I think you're going to have to give in and buy a box of cream cakes now to tempt him :lol: Is he getting much better?


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## NuttySian

Smart alec is one name for him yes :lol:

Will try the custard creams tonight, maybe he just wants a change of flavour lol.

He's not doing too bad thanks. I got muddled, it wasn't derma gel we tried it was another so I bought a derma gel spray, he hates it but less than the creams and it seems to be helping. He also seems to be scratching less too


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## NuttySian

Jaq is a naughty abnormal mouse!! :lol: He now eats around it even when it's crushed so I decided to try some others things.... Tried him with them as they were, no tablet, he wont eat any of them!! Wont even lick them!! Honey, jam, various flavour pastes!! :x If he doesn't like peanut butter tomorrow I'm stumped! :|


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## The Village Mousery

try putting it in sweetened milk warm then use a syringe to put it in his mouth if that dont work i'm stumped.


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## NuttySian

Tonight's plan is PB but if that doesn't work I'll try the milk way, thanks.

The main wound has gotten bigger again, he's still fine though, even came out today and let us hold him! 

Took this picture at the time, I think it might be getting infected again :x The bit far left.


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## The Village Mousery

you could always try a head cone like vets put on cats if his biting and chewing it


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## NuttySian

PB worked!!  Bowl was licked clean.

Cone of shame! (Sorry, watched UP yesterday :lol: ) Usually when his mouth is near it he's just sorting out the fur around it, it's the scratching that's messing it up still. I think the tablets are working though as it is even better than it was but because it's still so sensitive even the slightest scratch is doing damage.

We're going to go back to sudocrem and see how that goes, will be keeping an eye on him in case it is infected again and will go back and get more baytril if it is.


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## NuttySian

The little &^*% :lol: PB worked for 2 days but now he's cottoned on. Will try milk tonight, I also have some other paste thing that apparently nothing can resist eating lol.


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## zany_toon

NuttySian said:


> The little &^*% :lol: PB worked for 2 days but now he's cottoned on. Will try milk tonight, I also have some other paste thing that apparently nothing can resist eating lol.


And I thought Marx and Tootie were akward when they wouldn't eat a biscuit - yikes!!

If it's the scratching that's causing the damage could you cut his nails? I know most mice won't stand for it but if he would sit and let you do that it might help. Or a little medical gauze on his feet - might distract him long enough to let the rest of him heal! I also tried putting my marx on a sheet of sandpaper for a night or two (although he was pts before it could help ) so that might wear his nails down to stop the scratching making his wound so bad.


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## NuttySian

Well I forgot the milk so tried the paste instead and omg I have never seen him eat so fast!! Hopefully it will continue!

It didn't even occur to me to check his nails  will see what they're like!


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## The Village Mousery

sandpaper works for there nails, can also use the paper they use in the bottom of budgie cages.


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## NuttySian

Fingers crossed as the paste is still being gobbled! He's also put some weight on and is climbing better because of it! 

His nails don't look too bad, I will put some sandpaper in though anyway.


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## NuttySian

The paste is still working. Best £5 I ever spent. I found it on the acrorats site, it's called nutri-stat.

The wound is also looking better again. I know it's never going to totally heal but he is finally looking and acting comfortable instead of just happy but scratching, so that's enough for me!


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## zany_toon

Well anything is better than having him continue to scratch! I'm glad he has improved - and it sounds like nutri-stat will be finding it's way into my mousie first aid box! Well done


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## NuttySian

There's also one called nutri-cal, it's apparently exactly the same just a bit more expensive.

Of course after I say that it goes wrong. He wasn't waiting for it last night so I found him (hiding _under_ his fuzzbutt cube :lol: ) and offered it to him but he didn't want it. I left it for him but it's still there.

Hopefully he's just had an off day but I do worry as he's at least 1 1/2 now


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## NuttySian

The little so and so. He's gone off the paste! :x


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## zany_toon

NuttySian said:


> The little so and so. He's gone off the paste! :x


  Okay, I'm running out of ideas! What are you going to try now?!?!!


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## NuttySian

zany_toon said:


> NuttySian said:
> 
> 
> 
> The little so and so. He's gone off the paste! :x
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm running out of ideas! What are you going to try now?!?!!
Click to expand...

I still have milk and ribena to try but I'm sure he'll get fed up of those too (if he likes them in the first place!) Going to try some of the other things again too and see if alternating works.

*Insert many rude names for him here* :lol:


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## zany_toon

NuttySian said:


> I still have milk and ribena to try but I'm sure he'll get fed up of those too (if he likes them in the first place!) Going to try some of the other things again too and see if alternating works.
> 
> *Insert many rude names for him here* :lol:


:lol: I think I'd be threatening to wring his neck by now, forget the name calling :lol: What about a jaffa cake? I know it's still a biscuit but my Marx (who hated biscuits right up to the end!) would practically chew my finger off after i handled one.


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## NuttySian

:lol: 
I thought chocolate was on the no list? Or do I try and break off just the biscuit part?


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## zany_toon

NuttySian said:


> :lol:
> I thought chocolate was on the no list? Or do I try and break off just the biscuit part?


I'm pretty sure custard creams are on the no list too but I tend to throw that out the window when I have a mouse that won't take it's medicine :lol: You could give the biscuit part a try (leaving you the yummy orangey part and chocolate) and if that doesn't work just try a small piece of the edge of the jaffa with the chocolate. If that doesn't work you might need to leave your whole kitchen lying out and open to see what tempts him!!


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## NuttySian

Tehehe forgot that! Will see if I can find a small pack as none of us like them! :lol: I like the chocolate and possibly the biscuit but hate the orange part!

:lol: he'd probably choose the most expensive thing!


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## zany_toon

Was having a think when I was out today - would he perhaps eat dog chocolate drops? You could get just a few from [email protected] to try with the medicine and if that doesn't work I'm pretty sure he won't like the jaffa cake (although he might like an ordinary bit of cake?) Although, if you want to try jaffa cakes feel free to send the orangey parts to me! I love the orangey bit - it's the best part!! :lol:
Sounds like he is a mouse of taste if he will only go for the expensive things :lol:


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## NuttySian

Ooops missed this before sorry hun! He loves yoggies (normal ones, choc ones, berry ones etc I class them all as yoggies now lol) but I have no idea how I'd get the tablet to stay on one even when crushed?

We've given up for now with the tablets (we really only meaning HIM :lol: ) and are trying a homoeopathic remedy from Denes instead. It says 5 drops twice a day but to get him used to it I'm starting at once a day. So far so good but I'm not holding my breath :lol:


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## NuttySian

:ziped I _think_ the new drops are working!! I keep trying to get pics but they're all coming out blurry.


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## zany_toon

I hope it is working, touchwood....


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## NuttySian

Omg it's working!! I'm so happy I could cry but I'll save that for if it totally heals :lol: 
A few mm of skin around the main wound is now a beautifully healthy and healed pink!! Hopefully it'll carry on all the way in and I'll have a "normal" mouse at last! :lol:


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## zany_toon

NuttySian said:


> Omg it's working!! I'm so happy I could cry but I'll save that for if it totally heals :lol:
> A few mm of skin around the main wound is now a beautifully healthy and healed pink!! Hopefully it'll carry on all the way in and I'll have a "normal" mouse at last! :lol:


 :gwavec Glad it's working


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## NuttySian

I admit it, I shed a few tears. I'm seeing it heal a bit more every day! The smaller wound on his left side is GONE! And there's even more healed skin appearing around the main bit. He's still scratching and it still looks weird but it's going!! :gwavec I can't believe it.


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## zany_toon

I's so glad that he is getting better for you after so long     (What drops is it that you are using?)


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## NuttySian

I think I'm going to have to pinch myself soon just to check it's real :lol:

It's Sulphur by Denes Pet Care, they do quite a few things although I ordered elsewhere.
http://www.denes.co.uk/health/homeopath ... medies.php

I'm doing the twice a day dosing now as he's been happily eating his treat even though it's been a bit wet, I think he loves them too much to not take 2 a day :lol:


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## NuttySian

:dance still healing!! He has a bit of a tummy now from all the treats but as he was underweight I don't mind lol. He seems much more comfortable climbing etc too now, he leaps at the door to show me he's ready for his treat :lol:


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## countrygall721

Aww! this is such a nice story, I am so glad that he is doing better  I would love to be updated on this little guy  What a tough cookie!


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## NuttySian

And......still healing! 

I'm wondering what you all think though, if (I really want to say "when" but don't want to jinx it!) he fully heals, should I keep him on the drops or not?

My gut says yes but just once a day. I don't want him to finally be healed and then take him off them to have it flare up again but I don't know if I'm just being paranoid!


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## zany_toon

I think we all get paranoid when we have pulled a mousie through! And I don't know about you but I then sit and panic about keeping them on the medicine!! Has his fur started growing back?


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## NuttySian

I'm not _too_ worried about the medicine as it's natural although I know they can have side effects too.

It isn't growing back on the main bit yet but it's nearly all back on the other side. There's also still a tiny bit he keeps opening up on that other side but it's nothing compared to before. Still trying to get non blurry pics :lol:


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## NuttySian

It seems as soon as we take a step forward we have to go back again! The right side of the main wound is still healing, but the left side of it is opening up more!

Also, the rest of his skin is looking dry and flakey and has started him scratching more, is there anything special I should put on it or would some baby lotion do?


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## zany_toon

Would some aloe vera work? I used it on Marx when his skin went all dry and flaky. It will cool the skin and soothe it, as would some tea tree but that might be too strong. What a shame, he was doing so well


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## NuttySian

Ahh of course! Will have a look and see if we have any. I know we have the johnsons tea tree cream, the flakeyness isn't actually on the wound so it might be ok?

Of course it had to happen just as I get a really bad throat and possible cold! :roll:


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## geordiesmice

You can cut the Aloe vera leaf and use the sap on a wound , young leaf on the plant.I have used it myself the cream is great for dermititis and other skin related issues on pets.


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## NuttySian

Had a look and we haven't got any in gel/cream or plant form. We do have calamine lotion though, and sudocreme still.


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## NuttySian

I think we're finally nearing the finish line!!

The only open area is now by his tail, the rest is just bare skin waiting for hair to come back.









The strip by his back leg is now totally covered in hair again and as you can see the rest is growing too 









Excuse his mess


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## geordiesmice

Poor thing it looks sore, I have keens on every finger at the moment caused by the soil as a gardener the soil containing lime it causes an exma. That looks like psoriasis on the little fellow or maybe mites.It may need a steroid antibiotic too clear it up as some ointments are only a temporary measure and the psoriasis flares up again, my fingers all the skin splits and I cant use my fingers. I have used my cream on a gerbils nose and it cleared it in two days.


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## NuttySian

I put some sudocreme on the other day but only on the dry bits not on the wound, that's the first time in a few months he's had anything put on him. He's just been having the homeopathic liquid in a treat twice a day as it was doing more and doing it quicker than the creams.

Thanks for the info, I'll take him back to the vets soon and see what they say. Thankfully he's stopped scratching again and is still his usual self.


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## WillowDragon

He is still sore?? Wow, didn't realise.

Did you take him to the vets for a skin scraping? (Apologies if this was already brought up, i didn't read through all 9 pages! lol)


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## NuttySian

Hehe no problem hun. Nope no skin scraping, we all assumed it was a bedding allergy and was taking so long to heal because he kept scratching!

It's definitely still getting better even though it looks bad, I just wish I could hurry it up. Hopefully all the new info will give the vets something to go on.


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## racingmouse

I`ve just joined the forum NuttySian and have read this post with a big smile on my face! I`m glad to hear your wee lad is doing okay. His wound looks healthy and pink now at least and not as raw and sore. The remedies you have tried and tested (especially the Sulphur by Denes?) sounds promising. Sometimes their skin can feel really hot when they have this scratching condition. I also wanted to say a thumbs up for pure aloe vera gel. Never use tea tree though as it`s far too strong and will sting. Aloe Vera is better and I have a tube of the clear, pure gel and recently dabbed some onto a wound my female has on her upper back from scratching and I could`nt believe how well it calmed the scab within a day or two.

I also wanted to warn about the use of CAREFRESH. I had a recent run in with this overpriced rubbish, thinking I was doing a good thing by buying a 14 litre pack of it to mix with my Bedxcel litter since it was colder weather and thought the girls would enjoy it. All it did was give both my girls the sneezes and one a very bad itch. :evil: Carefresh is actually WOOD based and not paper based. It smells terrible and I will never, ever use it again. I use Bedxcel cardboard squares and the mice love it.

Keep us updated on how he`s doing?


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## NuttySian

Thankyou  I've made an appointment at the vets for Friday. He's got a lot better at being handled since it's been healing so hopefully he wont stress scratch again. He never bit or anything he was just uncomfortable which is no surprise.

Aloe Vera is on my list of things to get, have been building up a little first aid kit of sorts, not sure why I haven't already got that! I definitely recommend the Sulphur by Denes, the loratadine tablets were doing good too but I ran out of things to hide them in that the so and so would eat :roll:

I now *hate* carefresh and it hates my nose! Luckily none of the hamsters had problems with it but I've moved far away from it now. I bought some trial bags of bedexcel and liked it but I can't fit a bale in so have gone back to paper based cat litter for the hams and fleece for the meeces.

Will definitely keep everyone updated, hopefully I'll soon be able to post a pic of a fully haired Jaq!


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## racingmouse

The aloe vera clear gel I have Nutty is by Aloe Pura and it`s organic. I paid £3.09p for a 100ml tube online and it really is good stuff. Some chemists stock it and I `think` Holland & Barratt, so check out Boots and health food stores for it. It`s 99.9% pure.

All I ever use on mice that constantly scratch is saline (salty water) and aloe vera gel. Just a small amount to soothe any scabs. I treat for suspected mites like you do, but if the scratching compulsion continues (as it usually does) then these are the two things I apply. I`ve never used the sulphur by Denes, so that`s something I will take a note of. I`m wondering if sulfur can be added to drinking water without having a taste? I know you can get rock sulphur for dogs, but I don`t know a lot about it. Your vet might be able to tell you more on that I guess. Might be worth running it past him/her? It`s the taste of drugs that is the barrier to treating mice really. My girl is currently on batril for myco symptoms and I use the small piece of rich tea biscuit softened with water to apply the baytril and she takes it fine. Some mice won`t though and it`s frustrating.


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## zany_toon

I'm glad to hear that he has improved so much Nuttysian  i hope that he hasn't had any more episodes of sniffing and sneezing? I also hope that he gets on okay at the vet tomorrow (will keep my fingers crossed for him) and look forward to seeing a picture of him with all his fur back


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## NuttySian

After him being so great with the sudocreme the other day I'm thinking hands on treatments could be worth a try again if needed, salt water and aloe vera is so simple so it sounds like a good start.

I'm not sure if the sulphur has a taste, I assume it's weak or nice if it does as Jaq doesn't care about it at all on the treat whereas he did with the tablet (which was smushed so it wasn't the texture) He was a pest with his baytril too although I don't think he would be now as he loves the treats SO much! He nearly throws himself at the bars when it's time for one :lol:

Nope, no more snuffling or sneezing thankfully, not sure what it was all about as it was so quick!

Thanks for the help and support all x


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## NuttySian

Vets went well although he's now sulking :lol:

She tried doing a skin scraping but he was wriggling too much so she stopped as she didn't want to risk hurting him, she did the blue light thing for ringworm though and that didn't show anything. She was going to give an injection for mites just in case but the dose was too tiny to get :lol: so he has spot on again.

Have also got an antibiotic cream, or will have, they only had a HUGE tub so have ordered a smaller amount and will post it to me lol. It's not a steroid one as she was worried it might make it worse.

She's hopeful that the cream will give it the push it needs to finish healing so fingers crossed! She's happy to try a skin scrape again and something else for ringworm though if needs be


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## racingmouse

Glad ringworm was`nt detected as it can be passed to you! I caught ringworm from one of my show mice and had to get cream from my GP for it. :roll: Did`nt bother me having it however. It just appeared as a red ring on the skin that was a tad itchy. It was more of a tingle than an actual itch. My vet gave me shampoo for Lulu but giving her a wash went down like a fish bone in the throat! I felt it just stressed her more so I stopped. The shampoo had to be left on for five minutes and when you have a mouse sitting on a towel in the washand basin looking like a drowned rat, it`s not easy.

Hope this new cream works well. x


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## NuttySian

We had a good discussion about it as I have a bad immune system so we assumed I would get it too but I actually rarely get colds etc so that's why she's still open to doing more testing if I want.
Poor Lulu, I think Jaq would be the same, he's had the drowned rat look from the sudocreme before and of course has given me such a sad look to make me feel bad!

Thanks x Not sure when it will arrive but I think having the weekend free will help lull him into a nice relaxing state :lol:


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## racingmouse

Much as we try to help them, it also makes you feel a bit like a lab technician with all the man-handling and the feeling that too much handling makes them worse! You have to be cruel to be kind sometimes though and as long as it does`nt bring them down with the dreaded sneezes due to the stress of it all, they usually don`t mind the daily washing and medicating! I lure Rosie onto her furry bun-bed and lift her out while she`s sitting in it! I have to be sneaky because she does`nt always comply with what I want her to do. She`s used to me placing it in front of her now and sitting in it waiting to be swabbed with a cotton wool ball and aloe vera gel applied! :lol:


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## NuttySian

Jaq wont come out unless it's in a tube, he's happy to go in anything else once he's out but his "transport" has to be a tube lol.

The cream arrived today, will (hopefully!) do the first application tonight, it needs doing twice a day so I'll do it when it's treat time so he can sulk and eat :lol: I've also ordered some aloe vera gel, I found a load when searching but the one you use was the cheapest so I went with that.


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## racingmouse

Hope the wee man is okay. I`m still dealing with Rosie`s ongoing `itch` and she has swelling around one eye from scratching it, although she`s on baytril anyway so that will help. I just keep her wounds clean with saline really, but if you found any of the treatments you tried Nutty to be beneficail, like the Sulphur tablets or something else, do let me know. I`ve cut out animal proteins from her diet to see if she has an inflammatory response to the meat in the rat kibble. I doubt it`s diet related, but I did read that animal protein produces an acid which can induce an inflammatory response, so decided to remove the rat kibble from her diet and go grain/seed based for a wee while.


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## racingmouse

Have you seen any significant improvements with any particular cream, oral medication or anything else? I`m on the verge of looking for something to treat Rosie`s `itch` but from past experiences, I know this is`nt something that`s easily treated. I suppose I`m looking for something that will take the itch away in terms of soothing or dulling the irritation. Something to stop the spread of it.


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## geordiesmice

Ive used simple saline soloution in sealed bottles for psoriasis etc.This was on Gerbils noses it did work but after changing the bedding it didnt re occur.


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## SarahC

I noticed when I was at the farm shop that there are many products both natural and synthetic available for itchy horses which might be worth looking into.Horses must be prone to skin irritation judging by all the available products.


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## racingmouse

It`s the strength of them though. I`m dealing with a scab on Rosie`s back and near her eye, so I need something that will dull the irritation, but won`t sting or cause her any irritability. Like you geordie, I`m just using boiled, cooled water on a cotton ball if I feel she`s cut herself or irritated it. Once they infect the eyelids, this can become blepharitis and it`s not an easy thing to cure.


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## NuttySian

racingmouse said:


> Have you seen any significant improvements with any particular cream, oral medication or anything else?


The Denes Sulphur. The change in him after a week of that was amazing and I only started off with one 5 drop dose for that week! They have a couple of others that say about skin things too so you could see which fits Rosie's condition best.


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## racingmouse

Thanks for that Nutty! I was thinking the sulphur might be worth a try. So how is it best dosed? Does it taste of anything? Is it best put into drinking water or can you dose it on wetted food? I`m guessing water soluble? Not too sure if it needs to be a continuous medication or do you just use it until you see an improvement?


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## NuttySian

I put it on Jaq's favourite treat. It says on the site:
Dose by mouth or on food
Severe conditions: (acute or intense) 5 drops every 3 - 4 hours
Chronic conditions: (long duration, persisting) 5 drops twice daily

As Jaq was being so fussy I started with 5 drops once a day then did it twice a day once he got used to it. I didn't want to risk the severe dosing in case it put him off it.

Not sure if it could go in the water, you could email them and ask. I would hope it tastes nice if it has taste as it says it can be done by mouth. Personally I would put it on dry instead of wetted food as it can make whatever you put it on quite wet on it's own.

I think I'll carry on using it for a few weeks after he's healed and see what happens, if he starts scratching too much again I might go back to one dose a day.


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## racingmouse

That`s great, thanks. Did you feel that the sulphur drops alone made a difference or did you feel a need to stop those and start something else? What I mean is, would you have been happy just to continue use of the drops alone as they showed they were having a positive effect, or did you decide to keep going with the sulphur while trying other treatments aswell?

I`m just trying to decide whether to try this and see if it helps, but I would probably want to run it past my vet first. Sulphur is an old traditional remedy and I do feel it`s worth trying as it seems to have some kind of effect. Because it`s homeopathic, you tend to think it won`t be detrimental, but sulphur has many forms so I want to be sure it`s something I can give long term safely should the mouse have reccurring sysmptoms once the drops are stopped you know? I suppose that`s your worry aswell Nutty?

They used to say that puting a chunk of rock sulphur into a dogs drinking water would prevent it from getting destemper! Don`t know how true that is though!!!


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## NuttySian

If he was just scratching or he hadn't been dealing with the wounds for so long I would happily just stick with the sulphur, but I felt awful that it had taken so long so wanted to try something else with it.

My vet was quite interested in it, I completely forgot to ask her about any long term effects though  Yes that is my worry, I don't want him to finally heal then it all start up again because of stopping the drops!


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## racingmouse

Yes, I know what you mean. Rosie`s `itch` came on not from any bites, but a wee while back I just noticed a very small `nic` on her upper neck/back and it seemed to stay that way for a while and then got steadily itchier. I then added Carefresh to my Bedxcel, thinking it was a good move. WRONG! Miffy seemed fine on it, although she started to sneeze more, but Rosie`s itch and sneezing went wild, so I was forced to get it out of the cage and do a whole clean-out.

Right now, Rosie has lost some of the fine papery skin on her ears, has a swollen eye lid from scratching it and a scab on her upper back which she keeps having a go at. I bathe it with boiled, cooled water, sometimes as saline with added salt, sometimes with plain water, just to keep it clean.

I`ve treated her with Beaphar Ivermectin spot-on and will probably treat her again over the next three weeks just to satisfy myself that it`s not a mite issue. Much of the time these itchy skin problems are mite related and I know that stress/anxiety can make it flare up aswell if their immune systems are down and she has had a bad time recently with bad respiratory problems, which Baytril (thankfully) cured.


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## geordiesmice

I must be lucky I check the mice regular they dont seem to suffer anything, touch wood


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## racingmouse

Sadly though, this sort of thing occurs in many mice. If we knew what the ideal treatment was, it would stop a lot of heartache. because it`s such a prevailent condition, you would think vets would be able to identify it`s cause, but many don`t and treat for suspected mites. Sometimes this works, sometimes not and if the wounds get scabby and infected, it seems to become a vicious circle and a compulsion.

Of the three mice i`ve seen with this, they have all been white mice. :?


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## NuttySian

I've been lucky and only had it with Jaq, I did have another male who seemed to over groom but he never took any of his fur off or anything. The girls just do the usual cleaning itch thankfully.

Jaq isn't loving the cream, I've only been able to apply it once a day as he's sulked so much after that not even his treat can tempt him out again when it's time for another! :? :lol: :roll:

He's being such a good boy though, he comes out in his tube and has now stopped wriggling while I apply it. Haven't noticed any difference yet but fingers crossed. I'd love to get the aloe vera on too on the dry bits but he wont stand for it so that will have to wait until this last bit is healed.


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## racingmouse

You end up feeling as though the mouse thinks you are hurting it when it`s the opposite! It`s not so bad if you start to see the condition improving, but after buying and trying many lotions and potions, it never seems to go completely and that`s the frustrating part. I hav`nt tried the anti-histamine approach just yet but I would need to speak to my vet first. If you have more than one mouse and have to medicate the water, it`s not ideal. If the mouse is on it`s own, it`s easier to do. My Rosie is much the same, but no worse really. I`m trying to take a hands-off approach apart from keeping her scabs clean and using aloe-vera on and off. If she gets worse, I`ll be off to the vet with her, but I know they stab in the dark a lot with these issues and in the past, I never got any results from treatments they prescribed. You end up being your own detective sometimes.


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## NuttySian

:x *insert expletives here* :x

The ointment from the vets wasn't doing anything (I was still only doing it once a day but I'm sure I should have seen improvement by now) so I stopped that and started the aloe vera instead. It seems that was a big mistake but I don't understand why!

The next night after I'd put it on he'd scratched and made himself bleed again  ONLY the places I put the aloe though. He was very wriggly so I didn't manage to put any on the main wound so thankfully that isn't any worse (it's no better either but I think we can both deal with that, he hardly pays it any attention now) it was just on the healed dry skin.

Not really sure what to do now, I have put the aloe on another few times since and he hasn't done the same but I'm still wary :?


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## racingmouse

I`ve resigned myself now to just using plain boiled, cooled water now Nutty. I like yourself, have tried many lotions and potions and although I found aloe to be the least irritant, I don`t even bother with it now. Rosie is still much the same, but apart from giving one of her facial wounds a good scratch now and then and making it bleed, I just get her out for a toddle on the bed, she sits in her furry bun bed while I dab a wetted cotton wool ball over the scratched area to clean away any blood and she washes herself. Once I know the bleeding has stopped and her eye area is clean, I pop her back in the cage again with Betsy.

There are many causes for this to happen to a mouse and unless we actually know the trigger, it`s not easy to treat. Mites, bactarial skin infection caused by an immune reaction to a food allergy or other allergy, or a compulsion to scratch through other means.

I would say do what i`m doing Nutty and just clean him up with warm water and a cotton ball. See how it goes and even I the condition does`nt go away, it may be that he can live with it much as humans with similar conditions do. It`s a matter of controlling it rather than curing it. I`m lucky that Rosie has company now, so that definately helps. With a lone male, you don`t have that cushion of help there.


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## zany_toon

Oh crumbs!! He was doing so well too! Sounds like it might be worth trying the old boiled water and salt again to see if that helps. It really sounds like he did not like the aloe vera  Keep us updated hun.


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## NuttySian

I've not put anything on him for the last two nights, have just given the sulphur as usual and it's back to how it was before the aloe! I still don't know if fur will come back in that area, it's completely back on the other side so I would hope it will, but it's been healed a while now and still nothing, I'm wondering if it's because it's so dry so I'll give the water a go and see if that helps.

The open bit by his bum is looking good, it isn't irritated or anything, I think I just have to accept it's going to take ages to heal :?

I always wondered about giving him a friend but didn't want to do it until he was 100% although I know even then it would be difficult as it would have to be another male, obviously that idea is completely down the pan now though! He is very near to my trio of girls but doesn't show any interest in them!


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## racingmouse

I often find that when it looks to be healing up, the mouse keeps pawing at it and opens it up again, or a redder patch will appear and become inflamed again. It`s one of these things that baffles the hell out of me because I`m thinking to myself, if it was something she was eating, it would have showed a reaction long before this? Why do these itchy skin conditions seem to show up when the mouse is over a year old normally? This is why I suspected mites (as you do with hair loss and scabs), yet I treated Rosie four times over four weeks with Beaphar Ivermectin and rather than curing the condition it seemed to worsen.

This is why I`m at a loss as to how to approach this. zany gave me some anti-histamine tablets recently and I could try those, but I`m not sure whether to or not. I guess it`s a fear that I will upset something else! :roll:

Once single males get this it`s not easy to deal with. Many scratch their ears off and never really recover. They just seem to live with it, even though we strive to find what the actual cause is and treat them, finding the trigger is the $99 dollar question....if we could nail that, treatment would be a doddle.


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## zany_toon

Could you change his environment nuttysian? Just wondering if giving him lots of distractions would keep him from scratching the skin again when it is starting to heal. A friend is ideal - if you are worried about it being an entire male a neutered male would also be an option if you can source one or a vet able to do so. It won't necessarily be guaranteed to work but once the neutered male's hormones calm down it has a pretty good success rate. Failing that there is also the option of an African Soft Furred Rat (aka multimammate mice) but be prepared to have to buy an all metal cage or tank as they will chew threw everything :lol: After a year in their home made cage mine have decided that they are going to tear off the vinyl from the walls in order to get to the screw holes (where their shelves are held on) to try and make a break for it - talk about the Great Escape :lol::lol:


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## NuttySian

Oops sorry hun missed this!

That's one of the problems, he's not one for being busy :? not sure if it's because of his age or if he's just used to it? He was over a year when I got him and just had a wheel, house and a see-saw tunnel.
He still has those but also has egg boxes, one of those hanging ladder things, hammocks, lots more tubes and lots of different things to chew which he does.

I've never moved any of it around as whenever I change his hammocks over he sulks =/ I don't know if he's just being a brat or if he is actually stressed by it though!

I've looked into neutering and multis but neither are a doable option for me, if I could find an already neutered male in this area I'd nab him in a heartbeat lol but the only ones I've seen have been out of my area and prefer not to rehome this far.

There is some light at the end of the tunnel though, I hadn't tried the water yet, I was still worried that even something "pure" like that might make it bad again so left him a few more days and it's nearly all healed again and I _think_ I can finally see hair growing back!
It's also not as dry as it was either so the aloe has helped a little bit 

It's an awful thought but it keeps popping into my head, I can see him finally being healed and hairy again only to pass away the next day. It would be just my luck. Get out of my head horrid thought


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## racingmouse

My Rosie is much the same too Nutty and I just make sure she`s clean and happy. Once this condition starts, it`s never easy to get rid of and I know that myself, you and many others have had this happen with one of their mice and tried various treatments but with no satisfactory results. I feel that if a vet could identify what is actually causing the irritation, it could be treated better, but if it`s caused by a genetic trigger, then nothing will help. Mice have an `itch gene` that scientists discovered and I guess if something (be it mites or allergy) starts it off, then the whole cycle just keeps going because the receptors or neurons are triggered within the mouse`s system.

This could be why we never see improvement?


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## zany_toon

It's good to hear that he is doing so much better  You've had a lot of work trying to persevere with his itching but it's worth it  And I'm sure that he will be back to his usual bratty self in no time :lol: And hopefully with lots of hair again too. As RM said, if only there was a way we could test what it is that causes the problem we could stop it before it gets to this stage.

Have sent you a PM though about neutered boys, not sure if you've tried the ones I PM'd you about!


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## NuttySian

I still can't believe how friendly he still is, he's actually got much more cuddly than he was! If I had to put up with a horrid itch and yucky creams etc I'd bite someone :lol:

Got the pm thanks and replied x


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## NuttySian

ARGH! How my lil man manages to stay so happy when all I want to do is tear my hair out and cry I do not know.

The good news:
The fur is still growing back  and the bum bit has finally got proper skin back.

The bad news:
He's got a very sore bit behind his ear and the bum bit has scratch marks on.


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## racingmouse

I don`t feel this condition is ever truly treatable once it takes hold nutty. My Rosie still suffers from it and it becomes a compulsion. If vets knew what was causing it and could treat it properly, we would all be better off, but Ivermectin, creams, lotions, bathing with fungal shampoos and steroid injections have all been tried with no real results. I personally feel once this condition is triggered either by mites or allergy, a receptor is `switched on` within the nervous system that acts like a constant messenger, telling the mouse to keep scratching. There has been recent research done to identify this `itch gene` in some mice and I feel this is what causes this. In trials, a mouse that has had this `gene` removed does`nt scratch, yet the other mouse in the same trial has`nt had the gene altered and visually scratches all the time in comparison.

Many people call it a `heat` in the skin, eczema, allergy and other things. I`ve had three seperate mice now who have had this condition and all were white mice. One male and two females. Your little lad is a coloured mouse, but as I understand it, all mice carry the `albino` gene? I won`t go into that because I don`t truly understand it anyway!


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## NuttySian

"Look ma, normal skin!"


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## geordiesmice

That looks nasty and sore


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## NuttySian

Pardon?

None of it is broken, the dryness is 99% gone and it all looks the same as the rest of it under the fur! It's not nasty or sore, it's normal.

:?


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## racingmouse

It does look lighter and not so irritated. My Rosie has fur loss on her upper back, but the skin is lovey and pink and not irritated. It`s more the one side of her face really that I need to watch and keep clean. I`m convinced this is some kind of immune response to something. Some mice never suffer from it, yet others do, so perhaps these mice are prone to a triggering of some sort, be it something they eat or come into contact with or just a lowered immunity which allows naturally occuring fur mites to raise their ugly heads? I`m still scratching my head for the answer!


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## NuttySian

I've actually stopped doing anything now, I ran out of the sulphur and thought well now might as well be the time I see how he does without it and he really didn't enjoy the saline so I stopped that too and et voila he's almost "normal"!

Obviously I know it will most likely come back again, I'm sure the warmer weather will trigger something but for now he's actually even happier than he was (and he was one very happy chappy to start with lol) so I'm pleased.

It is ever so odd and annoying isn't it. The girls are all fine and the 2 males and 2 females I had before them were also fine. 1 male did groom a bit more than the others but he never had anything like this!


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## racingmouse

Having dealt with this in three mice now, I take the hands-off approach apart from wiping the affected area with warm water and a cotton ball. That`s it. I figure that whatever is causing this skin reaction also comes from within, so whatever we apply topically, it still seems to affect them even if some of the scabs and cuts clear up. The itching sensation remains. I know my mice don`t eat anything apart from seeds and grains and I`m sceptical of these being the cause as this condition always seems to strike in mice over a year old (mainly) and mites and a low immunity to them can be a trigger. The cycle then begins and because it becomes a compulsion, the mouse feels the scabs itching so keeps scratching.

I don`t know how to prevent this happening in the first place because it seems to affect different mice (males and females) of various colour types and ages. So it`s really a watching game and predicting whether the mouse/mice are showing any signs of irritation and taking quick action to first, treat for fur mites (the most common trigger) and hope that it does`nt escalate from there.


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## NuttySian

My worst fear happened, got him just about sorted.. and found him in a forever sleep last night


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