# white-bellied agouti



## Jack Garcia

Is white-bellied agouti (Aw/*) dominant over regular agouti (A/*)?

What does it look like?

I know that mostly British and European fanciers have the gene, but I have reason to suspect that I have it in some of my (English-derived) stock as well, only the bellies are not actually white but rather a light creamy color...

If anybody has a picture I'd be really appreciative. I can post some tomorrow after the light comes back.


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## moustress

I thought a whitebelllied agouti would have to be A/a^t c^h/*, although I know that the tan is is incompletely dominant over agouti...is there another gene that does that? What is A^w and where did you hear about it? Inquiring minds like mine...want to know...? I know that deer mice have white bellies and some other wild species probably do as well.


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## SarahY

It is dominant, and from what I gather you can selectively breed it to be white and make agouti foxes, or you can breed to to be tan. I have seen a few Aw mice that haven't been bred for colour and their bellies were creamy, like the rabbit variety 'otter'.

ETA: There's some information about Aw here: http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/A-w.html

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

SarahY said:


> It is dominant, and from what I gather you can selectively breed it to be white and make agouti foxes, or you can breed to to be tan. I have seen a few Aw mice that haven't been bred for colour and their bellies were creamy, like the rabbit variety 'otter'.
> 
> ETA: There's some information about Aw here: http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/A-w.html
> 
> Sarah xxx


Thank you Sarah! That's very much what my mice look like!



moustress said:


> I thought a whitebelllied agouti would have to be A/a^t c^h/*, although I know that the tan is is incompletely dominant over agouti...is there another gene that does that? What is A^w and where did you hear about it? Inquiring minds like mine...want to know...? I know that deer mice have white bellies and some other wild species probably do as well.


You thought incorrectly.  White-bellied agouti is it's own allele on the A locus, represented as A(w) and has nothing to do with wither either a(t) or c(h), although you probably meant c(ch). You don't have it unless you got some of your agouti mice from show lines in Europe. I did, but I'm still not sure if I have it because of the frequency with which PEW and argente pop up in my agouti lines, making it hard to tell. It's also known as "light bellied agouti," and it is at play in proper show chinchillas.

I found a good picture showing the difference:

http://www.espcr.org/micemut/a005.jpg
(pic is huge, so I left it in link form)

Aw is on the left. A is on the right. But the difference is not always that clear.

There are a few other alleles on the A locus which aren't available in American petstores, like mottled (a^m) and Intermediate agouti (A^i) and Intermediate Yellow (A^iy). I'm unsure what they look like. I know of only one person who keeps mottled, though. Varieties like these aren't very common to begin with, but even if they exist in the fancy, they wouldn't make their way into the hands of people who weren't going to use them in exhibition so you won't find them in petstores or hobby breeders, mostly in laboratories and a few in serious show breeder's colonies. So that's probably why you hadn't heard of it.

It's the same with leaden: there's only one person in the US who keeps leaden.


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## WillowDragon

I have recently sold a white bellied agouti pet type that may well have been A/at c(ch)... because her sister was A/at and there is ALOT of chinchilla in my pet satin lines!


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## Jack Garcia

Yeah, I hear it's much more common in Europe.

Isn't it true that fanciers in Europe let their mice go to petstores pretty often? That's how they end up in the hands of hobby breeders and such over there, but in the US it's an anathema to let properly-bred mice go to petstores because feeding live to reptiles is legal, so genes like A(w) wouldn't be as widespread over here.


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## WillowDragon

So far none of my pet types have gone to pet stores... i'm not totally adverse to doing it, if my local petshop wanted some, because i know them and know they look after the animals in their care well. I also know snakes have to eat!
Only one of my pet types was from a petstore, all the rest are from breeders 

Willow xx


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## moustress

Whoa!! Thanks, Willowdragon; I looked for that info on Finnmouse and for some reason didn't see it. I want A^hvy!! I have a sneaking suspicion the A^w was sent to me like a Trojan horse from someone who is probably very amused by all the wrong shades of tan I've been producing. Gonna have to back into my journals and track the results for those line for the last three years...maybe that person didn't know what he or she was giving me. :roll:


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## WillowDragon

Yeah, chinchilla is a great gene if you want it, can produce allsorts of interesting colours... but not so fun if its hidden and you weren't planning on it! lol

All of my BE Creams are chinchillated reds, I know this because they are FAT LOL

Willow xx


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## moustress

I had some 100% English sent to me about 10 years ago from a well know breed on the West Coast; it was a nightmarish affair. The breeder did not provide the appropriate pedigree, and it's taken me years to sort out just exactly what those genotype and heritage actually were. It was claimed that this person sent me a champagne tan, which turned out be a argente or argente cream tan...and Goddess only knows what went into the making of that as far a rare alleles, etc. You'd think a major player in mousedom would be a bit more punctilious about these things.


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## Jack Garcia

It's not really as much a nightmare as you might think. The English breeding system does not use pedigrees much if at all. Keeping a detailed pedigree on each mouse is more of an American custom. Good English breeders can tell you such and such mouse is from a line of such and such mice and is related to such and such, but most that I know don't have pedigrees which go back twenty generations like some American breeders do.


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## WillowDragon

Nah, no peds here... though i do document every litter. so I could probably tell you who is related to who and what colours have shown up etc, etc... lol

Willow xx


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## Jack Garcia

Within the US, the system varies. Some clubs like the MMC (which no longer exists, but yeah) really urge you to keep rather extensive (and, in my opinion, rather useless) pedigrees.

But the ECMA requires a pedigree *or* a birth certificate with all mice, so if you use the English system of not keeping pedigrees, that's fine, too.

I do keep pedigrees but often I stop at generation five or six. I see no point in keeping them into the tens or hundreds of generations.

You shouldn't breed things like brindle and merle or chocolate and siamese together anyway, so it's assumed that good breeders know enough not to do that, thus eliminating the need for pedigrees.


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## WillowDragon

Are chocolate pointed siam's not good then? I always thought it sounded so nice! hehee

Willow xx


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## SarahY

They look like rubbish Siamese, Willow  They look like seal-points, but the points are all faded and poo looking.

I keep highly extensive records, but I have autism :lol: It's is not necessary in the slightest to keep records like a pedigree, most show breeders won't mix colours unless absolutely necessary anyway.

I used to write out pedigrees when I was breeding rats (the rat fancy is very big on it) and I remember one person being absolutely horrified when they came to pick their rats up from me because she saw on the family tree that I'd bred a buck to his daughter. Twice. She didn't take the 'poor, inbred' rats, and needless to say I wasn't unhappy about that.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia

Yeah, Sarah is right. Chocolate is not dark enough to cause adequate points in a siamese or himalayan mouse. A pointed mouse who is also chocolate is non-standard, aka ugly. :mrgreen:



> most show breeders won't mix colours unless absolutely necessary anyway.


That is a very important point, and speaks to why so many good show breeders don't keep pedigrees: there is no need to!


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## WillowDragon

I remember when i picked up my first mice from Dom... he told me that record keeping was HARD. hehe Yeah, he was right.
But I always write down litters DOB and parents plus thier colours.

I think the only colours I have mixed are PEW with others, really just to see what the PEW was hiding! hehe

Willow xx


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## Jack Garcia

I'm no longer keeping pedigrees on my PEWs because it became pretty obvious that it's impossible. 

I've "mixed" dove with agouti before, but that was because I needed the PE dilute for argente. There's really no other way to get it, as bringing it in with silver or champagne would have potentially introduced alleles that can be problematic for agouti or argente.

When I think of people improperly "mixing" genes (and thus having to keep pedigrees so they remember who carries what), I think of things like blue and red, or angora and hairless, i.e. things that just make no sense.


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## moustress

IYHO; as if...(moustress runs off to kiss a cow)

It's called artistic license, and I earned mine, dues all paid, sing what I want


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## WillowDragon

Are blue and chocolate the only genes that show a hint of that colour when carried?

And quick question... so crossing a black to a pointed meece would be okay?  I have some unexpected shaded girls turn up in my first satin outcross litter, and the buck i kept (cos he looked fabulous from birth!) is a black. I am planning on breeding him to the girls to get (hopefully) some good satins.

Willow xx


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## Jack Garcia

I don't know. I know that carrying chocolate for sure can be wonky depending on what other alleles are present.

All good pointed mice are black (a/a) on the A-locus. So a proper siamese is a/a c(h)/c(h) and a himalayan is a/a c(h)/c.

The only thing that you can have on the A-locus other than "a" (i.e. black) is extreme black, a(e). Extreme black makes the points darker and more even, but I don't know how common it is in the UK...


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## WillowDragon

My youngest siam girlies that were born in my mousery have bloody brilliant face points, must be because my mousery is outside in a lovely shed.
does anyone have a picture of a Blue Point Siam? I bet the good ones are totally gorgeous!! <3 <3

Willow xx


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## Jack Garcia

That's very likely. Colder temperatures make for darker points (and larger animals).

You said the male is a good example of black? He'll be good to use in creating more pointed animals, then. The darker the black, the better the points in a siamese/himalayan litter.


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## Jack Garcia

Also, here are some pictures of blue-point siamese and blue-point himalayan: http://www.afrma.org/miceaocp.htm


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## WillowDragon

His type is excellent for an outcross, surprisingly so. He does have a little bit of tan on his ears and vent (But not too much! Woo!) which is to be expected with a normal black. His only fault, white tail tip dang it! But I can forgive that at the moment... i'm looking to build on type at the moment more than colour.

Ooo they ARE pretty... *ponders*

Willow xx


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## WillowDragon

One of my Siam girls =o) This girlie is ruby eyed...










Willow xx


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