# A number of problems!



## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

I've just retured home after 10 days away (I had a friend looking after them for me but she didn't handle them and isn't familiar with my mice/mice in general) and although I only have a grand total of 8 mice, 5 of them are sick!

1: I mentioned this issue a while ago but it's still ongoing. Two of my mice - a pet type buck and doe (housed separately) - have got red puffy eyes. I thought this was a bad reaction to hay I'd recently added but they've been almost 3 weeks without it now and there's absolutely no improvement. I'd been bathing their eyes before I left but that hadn't started making even the tiniest difference. I'm hoping to go and get some conjunctivitus cream at some point this week (I've got an operation tomorrow so unfortunately I can't rush out and get something now). But is there anything I can do for now other than continue bathing them? I have some savlon here if that would be ok?

2: Although all sniffing and sneezing had stopped for a while I have now gotten back to find two or three of my show type does (in separate cages again!) have started up again. No idea what's caused it to flare up again, they were cleaned out while I was gone and everything was done the same. Is it baytril I'd need if it's a respiratory infection? I'm pretty sure it is, so is there somewhere I can buy this or do I need to get a vet appointment?

3: One of my show type does (who also may have a URI as mentioned above) has got a lump on her neck right under her chin. There was nothing there what-so-ever before I left 10 days ago and now it's a little bigger than a pea. I felt it and it's solid and doesn't move. Is this likely to be a tumour? And is there anything I can do for her or is she not likely to recover from this?

4: My show type buck is the one I'm most worried about. He was a picture of health before I left, but I actually gasped when I saw him tonight - he's an absolute twig! He is permanently hunched up, thin as a sheet of paper, moves very sluggishly and has faeces smushed up his tail so I'm guessing he's a bit runny. He seems to be eating which I find odd, but that just worries me more as it means it's not under eating that's caused him to lose all this weight. I'm not going to lie, I doubt he's going to survive for many more days, but does anyone have a clue what this would be or if there IS anything I can do? He's currently housed with two does, one of which is one of the does I mentioned that has possibly got a URI, and the other is a healthy looking doe who is about 2 weeks pregnant. Should I separate him off? I've not rushed to do that yet because they've been together almost 3 weeks and if he's got something that is passable then the other two will have it already, plus I don't really want to disturb him looking so frail. I'm due to take him out soon anyway so the pregnant doe can raise her litter.

I just can't believe so many different things can flare up in just 10 days! It's not like anything changed for them either, other than the person looking after them (but I trust she hasn't caused any of this). Realistically......should I be looking to end the suffering of any of these mice?


----------



## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

Oh my sweet lord. I am so sorry to hear all of this. Not only because many of the things you mentioned will cost a fortune to treat, but also because you did absolutely NOTHING to deserve it.

I can't speak for you, because I'm not as experienced, but it sounds like a couple of the more severe cases may have to be put down  This is so unfortunate.

Did the babysitter even bother to call/email you to update you on what was going on? I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that this person is _disgustingly_ irresponsible with NO empthy for animals.

If your babies have had red eyes for nearly a month(?!?!), it's definately time for a vet visit and carefresh bedding (freeze the bedding for 6 hours, just in case). Bring in only one mouse with red eyes and ask for enough meds for all 8 of your mice. (not just the effected ones, because chances are, everything has spread) You will need to do the same for a URI, Baytril comes only from a vet (again, one mouse, but treatment forall that may/may not be effected.)
Tumors are never good. Your show doe is no longer show worthy, but please, continue to love the poor thing; that means take her to the vet too. If her treatment is too costly, put her out of her misery. Probably the skinny, lethrgic one too if he does not start eating.

This is so very sad... You seem to have put alot of effort in to these beautiful, show worthy creatures. Ruined by _one person _within just 10 short days... I speak on behalf of your animals, PLEASE, _PLEASE_ find a better sitter next time, or take them with you.

If they are important to you, please get them vet treatment right away, without cultures to bring the cost down.

Again I am so very sorry to hear this. You have my best wishes.


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Baytril can be found at www.ladygouldainfinch.com, someone else here will have to help with the dosage. 
If the show buck has runny poos he needs oatmeal. Was there any excess food in the cages? I hope you didn't pay this person. It doesn't sound like they did anything.

Freezing bedding often doesn't help unless you have a sub-zero freezer. If you'd like to treat it the most helpful way is to bake on a cookie sheet at 250 degrees (F) for 30-45 minutes.

All of these animals you mentioned could stand to go to the vet's. I would take a fine needle aspirate on the doe's neck to see if it's cystic material or a tumor, which would drain a small amount of blood. If you have never done a fine needle aspirate, please go to the vet for this.

I hope this is somewhat helpful-I don't know what to tell you about the red eyes-they just sound like allergies so perhaps the vet can dose some Benadryl for them.

I am sorry you are going through this. I too would be seriously questioning the ethics of your mouse-sitter.


----------



## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

In fact, if you can't afford the treatment, _sue_ the sitter so you can pay for it.

I don't care how "cruel" or "unreasonable" that sounds. Think of the unreasonable cruelty, the physical/emotional/mental distress those little mice (and yourself!) had to endure. I think it's completely fair.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to sue this person. Despite this persons "intentions" they were neglegent to the point of ABUSE. Stuff like this just doesn't happen within a week's time. There's something, possibly many things, the sitter has not told you. But then, I suppose communication (and animals, for that matter) are not very important to them.

It's_ painfully _obvious your mice were treated inhumanely. 
Think about it...!

10...

LONG...

days.

Your mice had to endure this cruel mistreatment and sickness. These were *your* mice, your property, your friends. It's just not tolerable, from someone who left you with the impression that they could be trusted with your animals. If you paid them, get the money back. Sue them.

I don't care if it's family. I don't care if it's your own mother - *sue* *them*. I'm don't know what it's like iin West Yorkshire, but here in America, animals have *rights* and you could easliy win a case like this. This person is selfish, and does _not_ have your best interest or the animals' best interest at heart. This is absolutely sickening and heart-wrenching to me.
I just can't beleive how terrible this is.

Animal Cruelty and Property Damage are BOTH illegal. Take some before/after pictures and keep the vet records. Create a case. You can WIN if you TRY.


----------



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Woah, calm down people! :lol: Upsetting as it is, these things happen. On the extremely rare occasions I go away I have someone come in to feed and water but they don't necessarily know anything about mice - but how many _mousers_ are able to come to your house every day?! This is very likely not the sitter's fault.

1) Some of my mice get red sticky eyes, I don't really bother about it. They aren't bothered and they clean themselves up most times. I wonder if it's hayever - my own eyes feel terrible at the moment. If the mouse is otherwise fine, don't worry too much.

2) How long have you had your show mice? If you've had them less than a month or so, it could well just be New Shed Syndrome. This happens when mice are moved into a new environment with different mice and different germs that they have no immunity to. Unfortunately with mousing, this is just one of those things. Best thing to do if you have this problem is to ask for pregnant does. This means that the babies should be weaned before the does fall sick.

3) Could be a tumour, probably best to take her to the vet if you want to know for sure as it could be an abcess or something. Don't breed a mouse with a tumour unless you know you'll have an available foster mother - they grow very quickly and it could well become fatal when you have pinkies in the nest.

4) Take out the healthy doe immediately and keep her on her own until she's kindled and weaned her babies - protect her and those babies with your life as they'll be reared in your environment and should grow up healthy with immunity to the germs in your stock. Leave the other doe with your buck as long as you can, the company will cheer him up. It doesn't sound like your buck has long left so if he's important to you get him to the vet, if not put him out of his misery.

Sarah xxx


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Have you contacted the source of your mice to see if they are having anything similar?Baytril is not the cure all wonder drug that you may have been lead to believe from posts on here and although it's worth ago don't have high expectations.


----------



## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

Baytril tends not to work if it`s low dose and for short periods of treatment. Depending on the dilution/strength your own vet gives you, baytril is best dosed two/three drops three times a day for at least two weeks, if not three. This is my own personal experience of using Baytril. It`s broad spectrum and is the only licenced drug for use in mice and rodents as far as I`m aware, although some vets will precribe other antibotics depending on what is being treated. But Baytril is generally effective at treating even severe respiratory issues, but has to be dosed for a longer period to supress all the bacteria present. Dosing must be consistent and prolonged and the mouse/mice monitored daily.


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I would disagree with you,not just on baytril but with all broad spectrum antibiotics.Most of these illnesses are viral and antibiotics are ineffective unless there is a secondary infection.Worth a try but don't expect a miracle no matter how long you treat for.It's no good pretending that they are a magic cure all,you must know that from the fact that human virus can't be cured with anti biotics.


----------



## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I agree about the general ineffectiveness of baytril in mice in my experience. Sometimes it does work but often it is either too late for the mouse by the time it is prescribed, the 'broad spectrum' approach means it is not targeting the problem and therefore is not effective enough, or as Sarah says the cause is a virus and cannot be treated anyway. I wouldn't tell people not to try baytril but to be realistic about what to expect from it. Also if you use it too often your mice will become immune and it will not work - the same as in humans I think.


----------



## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I havent bothered with baytril for years... its killed more of my rodents than it has cured. I don't like it and i don't trust it.


----------



## Matt Haslam (Mar 13, 2010)

AllieMouse said:


> In fact, if you can't afford the treatment, _sue_ the sitter so you can pay for it.
> 
> I don't care how "cruel" or "unreasonable" that sounds. Think of the unreasonable cruelty, the physical/emotional/mental distress those little mice (and yourself!) had to endure. I think it's completely fair.
> 
> ...


This response is completely over the top and i would not like to be a member of your family Alliemouse if thats what you think. everything in perspective it is more probable that the person looking after them didn't realise, its not necessarily there fault.

Britain has some of the strictest animal welfare laws in the world and is the only country to have granted legal policing rights to a non governmental animal welfare organisation, so we Brits do give animals rights! we just don't jump to sue people at the first hint of a problem, there are other ways of resolving issues.

I agree that Baytril may not be the answer. Antibiotics don't work on viral infections.

the lump may well be a tumour. I have had does with them, not uncommon.

I describe 'new shed syndrome' as a stress related illness. new environment, new food , new water (there may be correlation between NSS and water hardness), all these contribute to stressing the little animal, stress is often precipatated with a respiratory type illness.


----------



## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

*1: The eye issue *- you could try a saline solution instead of the savlon or a warm tea bag. Saline will kill a majority of the bacteria that are likely to be causing the redness. Failing that it could just be the season - as SarahC pointed out it might be a form of hayfever. One of my girls has had a red eye for a few weeks but the saline solution seems to be clearing it out.

*2: Sniffing* - as stated it's probably a respiratory infection. Baytril is only available by prescription. I've had it work in all but one case of the sniffles I've had to treat in my mice but something to bear in mind is that any mouse who recovers from the sniffles will carry it the rest of their life. Anything that upsets them can start them sniffing again - if the mouse is very easily upset something as simple as moving the cage or changing groups can set them off again. It really depends on how the mouse responds to it.

*3: The lump* - could be a cyst or a tumour. A vet can check. If it's a tumour it may be possible to operate but that will depend on a number of things (age of the mouse, its general health, your vet, how big the lump is.) If it is a tumour then it's just a case of managing the condition if it can't be operated on. As for a cyst I've not had to treat one before but I'm sure that it's just a case of leaving it (if you take the mouse to a vet then they can tell you) 

*4: Your buck* - sorry to hear about him  If he is that bad it really doesn't sound like he has long, it might be in his best interest to cull him or have him pts by the vet (whatever it is that you are comfortable with.)

If you look at it objectively, although these problems have only shown up in the last 10 days since you have seen them, they have all been there much longer. Tumours can go undetected for a long time, your mice already had sniffles and mice can hide them for ages and you have already stated that your mice have had red, puffy eyes for a while. Certainly not a reason, alliemouse, to be talking about the person feeding and watering them to be negligent, uncaring, inhumane and solely responsible for what has happened. I understand that you care about your mice, as does everyone on here, but please consider everything before you make such accusations that can add more upset to an unfortunate situation. All my mice are pets like yours, and like the OP i have left mine in the care of a family member for a week - I also came back to find several sneezing mice and a very thin one (turned out it was because he had lost his upper teeth) - but given that the person caring for them did not handle them, does not know them and that mice hide their illnesses so well there was no way that the carer was responible for anything wrong with them. And such as is the case with the OP's mice - there is only the very skinny mouse that has really had a sudden problem with it's health, the other issues were already there.

I really hope that your mice pull through hsyqa and am sorry to hear that you are going through this with them. Some really great advise has been given to you so hopefully it will help. And I wish you the best of luck with your operation too.


----------



## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

Shiprat said:


> AllieMouse said:
> 
> 
> > In fact, if you can't afford the treatment, _sue_ the sitter so you can pay for it.
> ...


Shiprat, why? Why do you hate me so much? I don't get it.
You're saying that they were perfectly fine with the sitter for ten days, then the second the owner lifts the cage - WHAM!- tumor, starvation, sneezing, gooey eyes! 
The sitter didn't report _any_ of this in the makings?
You can disagree with me and so can the person who posted the topic, but I call shenanigans on this ****.
And as far as my family, don't judge. You don't know.

I just don't get why you hate me. Seriously.


----------



## Matt Haslam (Mar 13, 2010)

> Shiprat, why? Why do you hate me so much? I don't get it.


This is a huge out of proportion assumption. I gave my view that is all. Now can we please keep this back on topic thank you.


----------



## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

AllieMouse said:


> Shiprat said:
> 
> 
> > AllieMouse said:
> ...


The poster didnt say that the mice where fine before they left... reread the post please.. also the mouse wasn't starved as the poster said the mouse was eating fine.. most likely the mouse has the poops. Allie you really have just gone way over the top. 
Think of it more like this: The mouse sitter didnt handle the mice so how is a sitter ment to see a lump under a chin.. if its not someone who's into mice they probly popped in made sure there was water and food and left. The poster said there was sniffles before they left and the eyes have been bad for weeks. So just chill alittle not everyone who's not into mice are abusers. Shiprat doesnt hate you... this also is over the top. Please calm yourself and read alittle more carefully.

To the poster... the info posted by sarahY is what i'd do. i hope things go well for you.


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

hyshqa, How are your mice today?


----------



## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

I don't understand why everyone is getting so defensive over my suggestion to sue the sitter. Why does it matter to any of you what I said? Besides, it's up to the owner to decide what she wants to do. She doesn't have to do anything I say, and probably won't anyway.

I've never sued anyone, but if someone destroyed my mices' lives, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm not going to give the neglegent sitter the benefit of the doubt in this situation. It's just too much; I feel like she's hiding something.

Furthermore, why is it so "over-the-top"?
If it had happened to a horse or a dog it wouldn't be considered "over-the-top".


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I'd love to stick with the OP and helping her poor mice, and i'm sure any personal complaints could be handled much better over a PM. This thread isn't about complaining against you, Alliemouse, it's about helping mice in dire need. Please try not to make it personal! 

I hope OP can come back to this thread and get some help from the many viable suggestions offered.


----------



## Matt Haslam (Mar 13, 2010)

AllieMouse said:


> I don't understand why everyone is getting so defensive over my suggestion to sue the sitter. Why does it matter to any of you what I said? Besides, it's up to the owner to decide what she wants to do. She doesn't have to do anything I say, and probably won't anyway.
> 
> I've never sued anyone, but if someone destroyed my mices' lives, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm not going to give the neglegent sitter the benefit of the doubt in this situation. It's just too much; I feel like she's hiding something.
> 
> ...


your really not getting it . Your response was 'over the top'. And yes I think it is 'Over the top' to sue a friend (in this case) or a family member (as you earlier suggested).

your comment 'if it had happened to a horse or dog..' does not fit with what some members are saying; my comments are about YOUR reaction to the sitter, and your insistance to blame them. Gosh if i blamed myself for every mouse that got ill, i would feel terrible. I think all we are saying is that a more moderate approach would be our opinion. I respect that you would sue in this situation, that is your opinion and you are very much entitled to it on this forum. My opinion is otherwise and i suppose i am reacting to just how harsh your response seemed.

look at the language you are using 'destroyed my mices' lives' for instance. That is very strong language to be using over something i would deem 'one of those things' and not worth dwelling on, let alone going through a legal process for.

I do think it matters what people post on a public forum, we all have feelings and the right for those to be respected.

I apologise if i have upset you, i'm beginning to see that a lot of the tension on the threads where you have posted are probably a language and culture difference. It is clear that you feel a great deal about certain situations.

I wish to make clear i have no hateful feelings for you, just a different opinion and the right to state it and question other opinions.

now can we finally get back on topic, Thank you.


----------



## Matt Haslam (Mar 13, 2010)

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I'd love to stick with the OP and helping her poor mice, and i'm sure any personal complaints could be handled much better over a PM. This thread isn't about complaining against you, Alliemouse, it's about helping mice in dire need. Please try not to make it personal!
> 
> I hope OP can come back to this thread and get some help from the many viable suggestions offered.


----------



## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

When I went away and my mice were not looked after properly I left an IED outside my sister in laws house, hoping to cause maximum damage to her and her family. Hope this helps


----------



## Snowmaus (Apr 11, 2011)

Some of you guys have negative responses to Baytril, and some dont use it at all. In the instance the Original Poster doesn't get baytril, what should she use instead to treat the sniffles?

What do you use instead of baytril?

Also, I hope your operation goes alright OP, and I hope your buck survives. The first thing that popped out to me (skinny mouse that's eating normally with runny stools) was intestinal worms. Best bet for him is to take him to the vet in my opinion, or let him alone and just keep him quiet, happy, and warm. I agree with removing the pregnant doe altogether, though.

Try the saline solution on the eyes for your gunky eyed mice. If your treatment isn't working, I'd suggest trying something new. There's a possible chance that your work helping them could cause some form of irritation to the original problem. Though, with 10 days of no treatment and persistent gunky eyes, that is probably not the case. Try something new- see if it helps. Otherwise- vets or just let them work it out on their own would be my suggestion.


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I think it's worth trying,I don't want people to have unrealistic expectations and feel that they have failed in some way if it doesn't cure. It's quite interesting that laboratories have also been unable to eliminate these problems.Even going as far as removing mice before birth so that they cannot be infected from vaginal fluids or mothers milk but still it prevails as does the human cold virus.


----------



## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

I'd like to appologise for not coming back to this sooner, I had an operation yesterday so obviously I've been busy recovering a little 

First of all, all my mice are still with us, even the poor little buck. However he is looking worse today - he isn't opening one of his eyes properly and when he's not limply crawling around (or trying to climb up the front of the cage mesh, bless him), he's scrunched up in a little mouse ball breathing heavily. While I was holding him today he passed a normal poo so I was wrong about him being runny. He seems to have lost interest in food now though but I'm going to try offering him different foods to see if I can get him eating something. I still can't see him pulling through though. I've removed the pregnant female that was with him so he's just left with another doe, I wouldn't have wanted to leave him alone now.

I appreciate everyone's advice regarding all the different things I can be doing to help out the other mice, with so many great suggestions something is bound to work for most of them 

Lastly I'd like to express my upset at some of the comments here. My pet sitter is a friend, who happens to be studying animal management and behaviour degree similar to what I am studying, and contrary to what has been assumed by some DOES care about animals. However that does not make her the most knowledgeable person on mice you'll come across. I asked her if she would come to my house once a day to drop some food in, and on Friday clean them out. I went through my cleaning methods and upon inspecting the cages they are exactly as I'd have left them. In other words NOTHING changed for my mice through it being a different person feeding and cleaning them for 10 days other than reduced handling, it may as well have been me doing it, i.e. any illnesses/diseases that have flared up while I've been away were in NO way shape or form her fault. I do not blame her for my mice either developing new illnesses or for previous ones reoccuring. Regarding her not informing me of anything - she DID tell me about the respiratory infections (despite having not ever learned what those little sneezes were, so I say good on her for actually being able to recognise that!) but as that is something that had occured previously I wasn't too concerned (I've just found now that it's more mice with the sniffles than before which would be MY fault for switching the mice around before I left). She also mentioned the two mice with puffy eyes to me but I told her they were already like that. The buck who has become emaciated never left his hide, she assumed he was asleep everytime she went round there (during the afternoon, so that would be a realistic assumption), and the tumour on the agouti doe is under her neck, I only noticed it when I picked her up by her tail and saw it sticking out when she splayed her legs out - I had to hold her in a specific way to actually see it so I am not surprised that was missed. My friend knew the mice were in a breeding set up and that some of the does were pregnant so for obvious reasons she was not keen to disturb them by getting them out whenever she came round, I was happy for her to simply drop food in and leave. Considering everything explained above, I'm appalled and upset that suing my friend has even crossed people's minds.


----------



## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm glad to hear that you and most of your mice are feeling better hyshqa. Although it is a shame that your buck doesn't seem to be improving  I hope that some suggestions haven't upset you too much...

Snowmaus, in answer to your question: I've been prescribed synolux, ceporex, convenia, marbitol (I think that is the name ) and antirobe as alternatives to baytril or when it hasn't seemed to work. The convenia and antirobe really helped but thankfully I've only twice had to look to alternatives to baytril. The first time didn't help but that was because my girl had been so ill with the resp infection for a long time (she was a very dear pet so I kept trying alternatives, she was too ill though for any of them to make a difference) but the second time it made a massive difference to my buck - he had been fine one day then gasping the next for air. After being treated with the marbitol and antirobe he pulled around within a few hours and spent the rest of the night trying to use the sympathy vote to get biscuit :lol:


----------



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

hyshqa thank you for the update! I hope you are healing well from your surgery and can really take the time you need to recooperate.
I am sorry to hear of your buck, at this point i would be taking him for euth.  That is very very sad, and I am sorry you have gone through this.

I totally understand your friend now...if someone told me not to disturb pregnant mice I'd duly listen. I had a very VERY bad experience with a pet sitter once, and I firmly believe no one could do such a good job with my mice as I can, so finding someone to watch them is hard!!! Even with my husband, it seems like one dies when he has the misfortune to be watching them. I doubt he has ANYTHING to do with it, it just always happens on weekends I need to leave!

I hope you can get some closure soon on your ailing babes!

I also like the discourse about antibiotics on this thread! Very good!


----------



## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

When mice get very very sick, thier back arches and stomach sinks in, they look like they are starving, but this can literally happen overnight. I have only ever had one mouse come back from this, and it took intense nursing.

I don't know what your mouse has got, but from the reading i did into the symptoms my mouse (that survived) had, it was a 'lower' resp problem, like a mouse version of pneumonia.

I will hold my hands up and say all of the mice I have seen with these symptoms, except one, I have culled. And the only reason I didn't cull the boy that survived is because he was my best stud and I needed him for my lines.
I probably wouldn't do it again though, despite the fact that he went on to sire lots more beautiful healthy litters, he himself wasnt the same again.

W xx


----------



## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

Oh my god this is horrible, he's dying in my hands right now


----------



## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

oh no... I'm so sorry. I know where you are right now, I was there just two weeks ago. I'm so sorry Steph... 

I hate watching mice die. It's the saddest most terrible thing in the world.


----------



## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

This would be a good time to euthanise him.

And before anyone shouts at me for animal abuse... watching an animal suffer does that poor animal no good.


----------



## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

WillowDragon said:


> This would be a good time to euthanise him.
> 
> And before anyone shouts at me for animal abuse... watching an animal suffer does that poor animal no good.


I agree, I know it's hard, but please try to make it to the vet if you can, Steph.


----------



## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

He's gone...

I went to check on him at about 11pm and he was freezing and didn't move when I touched him. I knew then he wouldn't make the night so I got him out, filled a tub with warmed bedding and sat with him on the sofa, but he was trying with all the strength he had left to crawl out onto my hand (warmth I guess), so I had him cradled in my hand to let him warm up and rest. It was only about 5-10 minutes until he started looking like someone was making him jump and he was flipping about all over the place. It took less than 20 seconds for him to completely pass after that so at least it wasn't a long death.

I wouldn't disagree with you suggesting I cull him, I'm for culling and I know it would have been the right thing to do but I don't have a co2 chamber and don't have the stomach for the more...forceful methods...I knew he was only minutes away when I got him out and it was a quick ending. He's peaceful now. Thanks to everyone for their support.

EDIT: It was 11:24pm when I posted and he passed away that minute too. Even if it were a more drawn out death I wouldn't have been able to get hold of a vet for him. I'm satisfied it was quick enough, he had been pooing and peeing normally right up until he died so I know he wasn't starving or thirsty, and by holding him I know he was nice and warm and settled. He was as comfortable as he could have been, which is some comfort to me.


----------



## AllieMouse (Apr 9, 2011)

hyshqa said:


> It was only about 5-10 minutes until he started looking like someone was making him jump and he was flipping about all over the place..


Their "swan song" the _worse_ part. I remember when Babydoll went, she tried to hide under a pillow; I imagine she didn't want to frighten me with what was about to happen. I made the mistake of lifting it up. She just spun around in dizzy, confused little circles then collapsed right into my hands and took her final breaths. I'd never felt so terrible and so hopeless in my life.

I'm really sorry this happened to you, it's just awful. Please make a memorial for him in the "Rainbow Bridge". I'm sure everyone wants to pay their respects to your darling buck.


----------

