# flicker's first



## x.kathy.x

flicker, my blue doe gave birth yesterday lunchtime.  
there are only 4 but they all seem ok  
Leigh thinks there are 3 bucks and 1 doe, shame it was't the other way round  I am chuffed though and can't wait till they colour up to see what they are, as dad is a seal point siam. 
I dont know if any blue point likely, or if this takes a few generations. If anyone would advise on this i would be greatfull of the help :?: 
Leigh's taken some pics so, Pics to follow..

PS Leigh will you please get your **** in gear and post your litters,so everone can see what we have so far :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## NaomiR

I have gone to sleep waiting for photos :lol:


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## x.kathy.x

:lol: I will have to give her a kick up the bum, so she gets the pics on :lol:


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## Maplewood Stud

cheeky cows the pair of u  x


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## NaomiR

I couldn't possibly comment I am still asleep


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## SarahC

it takes several generations and they always(in my experience)have poor colour points and very pale body colour.Any I have had have been a disappointment,you might strike lucky though.


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## Maplewood Stud

all of the babies look quite dark atm, will post some pics later on... i promise x


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## Maplewood Stud

here u go moaners 

the proud father, miaggi,









heres pregnant flicker,









and again with a pregnant breeze,









flicker a little while after her bubs were born,









and giving them a wash 









her 4 little bubs,









hopefully breeze will pop in the next day or 2, x


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## NaomiR

oh they're beautiful and how fabulous to only have four


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## Maplewood Stud

this was 1 of the bubs once theyd started to colour up,










and this is him now with a bit of fur 










me and mum are very chuffed with these black bubs, not a single white fault


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## NaomiR

apart from the toes :lol:

they're really pretty


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## Maplewood Stud

thats what i thought they had white toes, but its not its theyre claws... theyre really long! :shock: x


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## NaomiR

do they need black nails?? oo err :?


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## Maplewood Stud

oh bugger, i dont know actually... im sure someone will let me know if they do  x


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## Rowangate

NaomiR said:


> do they need black nails?? oo err :?


Blacks

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The black is a very popular self variety and is one of the three most frequently exhibited, along with the PEW and cream. A variety suitable for the beginner as well as the experienced fancier, blacks can be a lot harder to breed than novices might imagine. Any colour fault in a black, such as a tan vent, white hair or white toenail will stand out against the dark background rather than remain unnoticed. The only outcross advocated for a black is another black, so they tend to remain very inbred. 
As extreme non-agoutis with a lot of pigment, blacks are naturally smaller mice. It is not possible to get a black mouse of the same size and type as a huge PEW and some allowance is made for this. Despite this breeders should never use weedy or weak specimens as breeding stock and must always be aware of the quality required of a show mouse. Although an outcross may not be needed for colour in a black, it may be needed to boost the immune system. In my experience inbred blacks (as all show blacks are) are prone to illness more than other varieties. By only breeding from the disease-resistant mice and by outcrossing if needed, the breeder should be able to keep on top of this.

A good black should be hardly visible - by which I mean that it should feel like you are looking into a black hole. The best black I have ever seen had this effect on me and I have never forgotten it. It was so deeply black that it was hard to see its features because it was so uniformly coloured. The breeder of this black also never benched blacks that were tinted with other colours - they were black through and through. I have seen blacks exhibited with casts of other colours, notably chocolate and occasionally silver/blue, and these mice were just lacking that pure blackness that would have made them winners. One fault in the poorer of these mice was the colouring of the inside of the ears, which was not jet black.

The most difficult fault to eliminate from a black is probably the tan vent, which needs a combination of careful selection of breeding stock and sometimes outcrossing to a different strain of blacks with less tan. The artificial colouring of mice is strictly prohibited by the NMC rules, and any person doing this to make their mouse blacker would be disqualified. However, the plucking of an odd white hair is not banned and some top breeders will do this before a show.

This is taken from the showing section of fancy mice info> Appologies in advance if I am doing wrong by copy and pasting, mods if need please remove.


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## Cait

That's fine, I don't mind it being posted here. So Leigh, yes, white toes are a big fault in show blacks.


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## Rowangate

MouseBreeder said:


> That's fine, I don't mind it being posted here. So Leigh, yes, white toes are a big fault in show blacks.


Can I just say, I've found the fancy mouse info site very benificial. Do most show mice that are self have coloured toe nails?


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## ian

Its quite important for the dark selfs (and tans). I breed blues and blacks and it is something to look out for but at the moment I am more concerned with the tan vents which seem to strike at random. I can have two fantastic parents, no tan on the vents and all the babies will be covered in tan!!


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## Cait

Colour should be carried out throughout and yes show blacks especially have every toenail coloured or they are not likely to win anything. As Ian says the darker colours should have blue, chocolate etc nails to match.


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## Maplewood Stud

oh bugger x will their nails get any darker or is there anything i can do to breed in darker nails? i dont even own any black nail varnish  lol x


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## Rowangate

sorry to hijack the thread, but how would tan vents be avoided ? if a parent with a tan vent was used would that mean all the babies would have tan vents or would it be like our groin spots on our hooded rats, you try not to use a rat with groin spots as it increases the chance of the offspring having groinspots but not all of them necessarily would. Also does this tan vent affect the overall colour of the mice?


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## SarahC

tan vents and light toenails are avoided by selection.If the problem is very bad then an outcross is needed to stock not carrying the fault.Mice that suffer badly with tan vents can also suffer the fault of a throat spot.It depends on the variety as to how heavily penalised the fault is.Any self or satin with these faults will have little chance of success but some of the aovs and marked and tans(dark older tans often have throat spots)will fare better.Black mice in particular are almost perfect in colour and any tan hairs at all will keep them from winning.


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## x.kathy.x

:lol: :lol: these wern't destined for the show table you lot. i was hopeing for something entirely different!!!! :? 
i am assumeing that these will carry both blue and siam, that assumed will they be ok to put back with thier siam dad??? afterall it was blue point siam i was after, i really wanted to try to breed one  
any suggestions would be much appreciated as i may be a little lost!!!


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## Rowangate

x.kathy.x said:


> :lol: :lol: these wern't destined for the show table you lot. i was hopeing for something entirely different!!!! :?
> i am assumeing that these will carry both blue and siam, that assumed will they be ok to put back with thier siam dad??? afterall it was blue point siam i was after, i really wanted to try to breed one
> any suggestions would be much appreciated as i may be a little lost!!!


appologies for hijacking the thread. Hoping for something different happens to most of us I think at some time or other.


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## SarahC

I would do a brother to sister mating if it was me.You could also do a mother to son mating as you have a few bucks or repeat the father and mother mating in the hope of producing more does.They are very pretty as a hobby mice and I was only replying to the question of faults.Not burdened by the worry of white toenails and tan vents you are free to enjoy  The brotherxsister would definately be my first choice.


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## Maplewood Stud

anyway now u lot have finished arguing lol,
heres a new pic of one of the bubs, aged 5 weeks x


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## WillowDragon

I want! *dies with love*

Willow xx


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## Maplewood Stud

u can have, ive saved u some  x


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## WillowDragon

I love you! 

Girlies or boyses? Or both? :mrgreen:

Willow xx


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## Maplewood Stud

hehehe

i have both girlies and boyies....

and....

black tans too..... 

u know ur welcome to take what u like xx


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## WillowDragon

Ooo... so much temptation!! :shock: hehe

I love the blacks, have done since i saw the piccies when they were tiny! I can have room for yummy blackness and satins and astrexs too right? hehee

And black tans! OMG!! I LOVE tan mice... when i was young I had a gorgeous champagne tan doe I called Gabrielle hehe She was my best friend for the almost 3 years I had her, so tame I could have her out of her cage for hours and she just sat on my shoulder! So tan mice bring back lovely memories for me! <3

Willow xx


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## Maplewood Stud

i think ur gonna have to have a nose when ur here lol, dont worry i take i owe you's lol  x


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## WillowDragon

Eee... if I had my shed now, I would be down tomorrow! LOL

Though I will have bare in mind, i will be coming by train, and can only carry so much  
Would they be okay travelling by train, or would the mice be less stressed being delivered by courier? I would totally be happy to pay for that (Though i have no idea how much that is! lol)

Willow xx


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## Maplewood Stud

where abouts are u my dear? x


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## WillowDragon

Bexleyheath in Dartford. It will be a good couple of hours on the train, and a bit by bus.

Bexleyheath to London Victoria, Victoria to Bognor Regis station is the quickest route i have found, and thats approx 2 hours 40 mins

Willow xx


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## Maplewood Stud

hm we need to come up with a plan  x


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## WillowDragon

Yeah, i think that would be best... trains are really not that comfortable for me! They are hot and smelly LOL
It would REALLY not be nice for mice i think.

Willow xx


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## Maplewood Stud

no i agree with u there 2bh, x not only that but it would be too expensive :x

but dont worry well sort something, are u anywhere near sittingbourne in kent? x


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## NaomiR

the dartford crossing is about 25 minutes from me


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## Maplewood Stud

oh there u go then maybe we could all meet up? x


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## NaomiR

or I can get the mices from you and take them to Willow for petrol, or just take them to London Champs??


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## Maplewood Stud

ahh thats a point i think me and mum are gonna come to the london champs, x


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## WillowDragon

LOL Sorry, I couldn't get on the forums.

I am planning on going to London champs, if I have the money (Still not definate yet) but again, i am going on the train, and again its almost two hours.

Naomi, if you could get to Dartford rail station, or near by, it takes about 10 mins for me to get there by train from here, i wouldn't ask you to come all the way to my house, that would be cheeky! LOL

I love you all! 

Willow xx


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## Mari

As far as my understanding goes (I have had actual experience with Siam rats, but just reading on mice ), you should be able to breed any of the baby does back to Dad and produce more Siams, but unless Dad is carrying for Blue, you would only get colorpoint. Breeding baby doe x baby buck (brother x sister) would give you the possibility of Blue Point Siams, as they are both recessive genes and the bubs will carry for both.


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