# Colors coming from chocolate



## Erica08 (May 20, 2009)

I was just curious as to what other colors might pop up from breeding a Chocolate Tan Dutch doe to a chocolate buck. They are petshop mice so I don't know any genetic history but I hope some people who work with chocolates could tell me what colors they have had pop up so I can get an idea as to what my foundation mice might be geneticly.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Since they're from a pet store, there's no telling what they carry.

Pink eyed chocolate is called champagne.

Chocolate with blue is called lilac.

Chocolate with any of the C-locus recessives is called ugly. 

The things you know for sure you WON'T get are: black, brindle, agouti, and blue.

If you can help it, it's best not to use petstore animals as foundation stock because you have literally no idea what colors (or diseases) they might carry.


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## Lime Green Mouse (Nov 13, 2009)

Jack Garcia said:


> If you can help it, it's best not to use petstore animals as foundation stock because you have literally no idea what colors (or diseases) they might carry.


In defense of pet store animals, it's pretty easy from a couple litters to figure out what they're carrying, with a few smart pairs. Then, even if you don't want to breed that mouse anymore, you'll know what genes and predispositions the offspring carry for use in later projects. Also, keeping the parent mouse and working with the offspring, as well as isolating new mice like you ought to do anyways, will tell you about any debilitating, contagious, or slow showing diseases. It's slow, but it's more guaranteed than buying a mouse from a breeder and just assuming it's disease free, when they might not have noticed cancer predispositions or something.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah, petstore mice can be very great pets. But they can also cause a lot of heartache. It depends heavily on the individual petstore and which rodent mill or breeder they get their animals from. Any good breeder is _always_ a better option, though it's not always realistic for all people. A petstore is rarely the first resort.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> It's slow, but it's more guaranteed than buying a mouse from a breeder


I don't know how you can say that... The risk is equal in my eyes if you don't know either the guy who supplies the pet store or any hobby/exhibition breeders. Breeders can lie or just be crap - but I can't see that buying totally unknown mice from a pet store is "more guaranteed". If you don't know/believe your breeder then surely it's no more of a risk than buying mice from a pet store? You're still at square one with mice from an unknown line...

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

SarahY said:


> > It's slow, but it's more guaranteed than buying a mouse from a breeder
> 
> 
> I don't know how you can say that... The risk is equal in my eyes if you don't know either the guy who supplies the pet store or any hobby/exhibition breeders. Breeders can lie or just be crap - but I can't see that buying totally unknown mice from a pet store is "more guaranteed". If you don't know/believe your breeder then surely it's no more of a risk than buying mice from a pet store? You're still at square one with mice from an unknown line...
> ...


Exactly!

Especially in Canada and the US, where a large number of petstores are supplied by rodent mills like this one: 



 (graphic) or this one: http://www.petsmartcruelty.com/ (also graphic)

They focus on PETsMART but a great number of petstores, both chain stores and individually-owned stores, get their small animals from mills. Everybody is opposed to puppy mills these days but what people fail to realize is that their cute, cuddly little rodents from petstores are also coming from these mills, all untracked, all potentially infested or infected with some nasty contagion or another.

You are much better off finding a reliable breeder, if at all possible. Good breeders are usually (though not always or necessarily) affiliated with a national or regional club like the NMC in England or the AFRMA/ECMA in the US.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, Jack; doesn't make it so, or even relevant. You do your thing and we'll do ours; if the twain leaves the station without you...that's what you get.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

How is the fact that untracked petstore animals are not as good foundation stock as those from a decent breeder not relevant information? It's the truth. If you're uncomfortable with that information, you may choose to ignore it. Be well!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Jack, I think that many show meeces are so overbred that they look like horses with floppy ears and hairless tails, or elephants without trunks. I like my mousies to look like actual mice, not like some kind of alien species; =ugly. I feel the same way about many other types of critters that are bred for show.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

If you are uncomfortable with that information, you may choose to ignore it.


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## Erica08 (May 20, 2009)

Pet store mice are not my ideal starters either but I have had no luck finding a breeder in my area and I have had great luck in terms of longevity and health from this shop even before I made the choice to breed.
Erica


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Barbara Smith-Hicks is in Janesville. I don't know how far that is from you or if she would have any mice available, though.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I know I'm not a moderator or anything but Moustress and Jack, please let's not let this forum turn into every other mouse forum on the internet. This forum welcomes all kinds of breeders with all kinds of mice, please remember that and let's not have people calling other people's mice ugly and people slating people for breeding pet mice. People will breed what they find attractive, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some people like big mice with standard colour and giant ears, some people like cute mice with strange markings, some people like to breed towards a show goal and some people find great delight in breeding their favourite pet mice and enjoying the rainbow of colours that turn up. It's not about who's right or wrong, it's about personal taste.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thank you!


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

as far as I can tell we are all practicing selective(over :?: )breeding although our goals may be different.If we and past breeders didn't we would all be sharing pictures and chat about plain old mus musculus in his natural state.I enjoy sharing every ones mouse chat on here ,love seeing the pics beautiful or ugly it matters not,we all love mice.I've definately got a few interesting uglies/mongrels ,perhaps we should have a photo comp for them :lol:


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

SarahC said:


> I've definately got a few interesting uglies/mongrels ,perhaps we should have a photo comp for them :lol:


Great idea! Show us your fuglies!


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## contraria (Nov 9, 2009)

back to topic.

nomalie you will get: lilac (aa bb dd) and champaine (aa bb pp). (aa bb dd pp) are allso called champaine (som even call them light or dustie champains)

if you get any other colours. one or both of you mice, are of burmese variate. (or that is whot we call them in DK)


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

MouseBreeder said:


> SarahC said:
> 
> 
> > I've definately got a few interesting uglies/mongrels ,perhaps we should have a photo comp for them :lol:
> ...


Hehee I'm liking that Idea too... though just out of curiosity, what would you class as an 'ugly' mouse?? Cos i'm trying to think through all mine and I think they are all cute! lol

Willow xx


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Chocolate can be a tricky color to get right; there a a lot of mock chocs of various stripe. It's hard to get that just right, not too dark, not too light, just the right amount of reddish to it. Any of the tones from eumelanin, even black can be hard to perfect.


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