# Dutch mice in the US?



## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

Is there Dutch mice in the US? I love Sara's Dutch, and they are sooo tempting!


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Fraid not.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes they are. Dutch isn't made by a specific Dutch gene like it is in rabbits. I have done extensive test breeding to selfs and various different marked mice and I discovered that Dutch are just recessive piebald (s/s), exactly the same as brokens and most evens, all of which are selectively bred to get the markings in the right place. Recessive piebald naturally allows pigment to clump around the rump and face, and a blaze is common with recessive piebald also, so breeding Dutch from piebalds is a bit easier than breeding broken from piebalds. Brokens need that rump and face colour almost eliminated except for one or two spots in each area.

If you (or anyone else in the states reading this) are tempted to breed a new line of Dutch mice, this is how you would go about it:

1) Search breeders and petshops for piebald mice with saddles and face markings, even if they are covered with other spots or have ragged saddles but obviously the "Dutchier" the better. You want to keep darker colours at this stage because it makes early selection that much easier. A pale coloured Dutch won't show any ear pigment or stops, and you need to see them to ensure you haven't accidentally bred them out.

2) Breed them together. Try and pair them up so that the faults are not matched (body spots, etc) and the things you want to keep are matched (saddle, cheek patches, etc).

3) Keep as many bucks as you have does in order that you can properly match the mice together. I have as many bucks as I have does breeding. Currently I have ten breeding pairs on the go and a few cages of young mice running on. To start up a Dutch project I'd say you'd need at least six pairs, more if you can afford the space. Six pairs will allow you a big enough gene pool that you don't need to bring in new piebalds and set your work back. Once you've got going, you do not want to outcross! If you absolutely HAVE to outcross (and I recommend it only as an absolute last resort), use a self from a long line of selfs because this won't bring in new k-factors or any disposition for markings in the wrong place.

4) Keep breeding the Dutchiest mice together, eliminating those with spots on the shoulder first. Spots near the saddle can be used to keep the saddle line higher up the body as if you discount these as well the saddle will slip further and further back as you try to get a straight line.

5) Select strictly. Don't be tempted to keep pretty colours or whatever, keep only the ones that look the most like Dutch. Don't get distracted, it'll take quite a few generations to make a Dutch line so stay focused.

6) Learn the standard for Dutch off by heart, then small faults are less likely to slip past and go back into the gene pool. The cheek markings should be oval and include the ears, but not seep into the whiskerbed, down the neck or under the jaw. The saddle line should be straight all the way round, as close to the middle as possible. The back foot stops should be halfway between the toe tips and hock. The tail stop should be halfway down the tail.

7) This isn't necessary, but I would recommend keeping photos and notes of your litters and their parents. You'll be able to look back and see which mice are producing the best, and amend your plan and pairings accordingly.

Make no mistake, this is a long term project with heavy culling of stock needed, but it would be worth it in the end


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## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

WOW! that sounds like fun. Wonder why no one else in the states have thought of that before...
So, what do piebalds look like? I never really saw one before...


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

mousefan said:


> WOW! that sounds like fun. Wonder why no one else in the states have thought of that before...
> So, what do piebalds look like? I never really saw one before...


... Piebalds are mice with white patches on them. The s/s gene is very variable, so pied can range from some small belly markings to an entirely white mouse. Because of this variability, pied is used in other varieties as well, such as Even and Broken.

http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/even.html
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/broken.html

However, just because a mouse has white splotches on it, doesn't mean it is the pied gene you are seeing. Banded is a common pet store find, and due to the uncontrolled breeding that environment provides, their bands are often irregular and can fool a person into thinking they are pied.

http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/banded.html

Even when not used for a show varieties, the unique coat patterns make pied a fun variety to work with.


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

SarahY said:


> 4) Keep breeding the Dutchiest mice together


Is this a technical term :lol: :lol: :lol:
Great advice for prospective Dutch breeders.


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## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks for the links, I've done some reasearch, and found you can get dutch from most spotting patterns, by selectively breeding the most "Dutchiest" mice.


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

WoodWitch said:


> SarahY said:
> 
> 
> > 4) Keep breeding the Dutchiest mice together
> ...





mousefan said:


> Thanks for the links, I've done some reasearch, and found you can get dutch from most spotting patterns, by selectively breeding the most "Dutchiest" mice.


It is now


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## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

You mean there will be soon


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I think what candycorn meant was that there is not currently anyone breeding quality Dutch in the US (outside Cali), so currently there aren't any. That doesn't mean you can't make some, just that you're starting from absolute scratch. There's a girl in Kansas working on it, but it's a serious undertaking.


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## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

It does sound like a big project, it ill involve many, many many generations, but, once its all done, I will have a really fine quality dutch line. it will probably take me a long time, but in the end, it will be well worth it


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> WOW! that sounds like fun.


Yeah... it won't be fun :lol: It'll be frustrating and insanely hard going and will take YEARS 



> Wonder why no one else in the states have thought of that before...


Most people are under the impression that a specific gene is the cause of Dutch, when it's not. I'm sure the general thinking is that the 'Dutch gene' doesn't exist in the USA.



WoodWitch said:


> SarahY said:
> 
> 
> > 4) Keep breeding the Dutchiest mice together
> ...


Why yes, yes it is! 



> I've done some reasearch, and found you can get dutch from most spotting patterns, by selectively breeding the most "Dutchiest" mice.


Only recessive spotting s/s makes Dutch (and broken and most evens). Variegated and banded won't make Dutch, avoid putting either into Dutch lines 

I've attached a picture of the kind of piebald you'd be looking for to start with. This is a petshop mouse which I bought when I was doing my test-breeding to find out exactly what Dutch is made with. You can see she has two cheek patches, a saddle, but a host of other spotting that you don't want. The key is to balance this overmarked doe with a lighter marked buck that still has some semblance of a saddle and cheek patches.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Laigaie said:


> I think what candycorn meant was that there is not currently anyone breeding quality Dutch in the US (outside Cali), so currently there aren't any. That doesn't mean you can't make some, just that you're starting from absolute scratch. There's a girl in Kansas working on it, but it's a serious undertaking.


Sorry, I should have been more specific. This is what I ment. No one has currently got a line of them going, so anyone would have to start from scratch. Just like no one that I know of is breeding for broken or even marked.


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## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

So my best bet on getting broken or even is at the petstore? could you start it from banded to?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

mousefan said:


> So my best bet on getting broken or even is at the petstore? could you start it from banded to?


No, as I said earlier you don't want banded in there at all. You wouldn't want to start with brokens either, although I doubt you'd find any in a pet shop. Brokens are selectively bred for the complete opposite of Dutch - broken up, tiny bits of colour, nothing resembling a saddle, and no cheek patches - so, although they are the same gene, putting broken into Dutch or trying to start Dutch from broken is the worst thing one could do. You need ordinary recessive spotted s/s piebald mice, like the one of which I posted a picture  Lots of people breed them as pets or feeders, and lots of shops sell them.


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Wouldn't suggest looking in a pet shop right off, unless that is your only option. You know from Sarah's experiment where Dutch comes from. A breeder who has a few generations, or more, of at least health, if nothing else, would be an easier start. Someone breeding pied (piebald) in 'typier' mice would be an even easier start. Not that it would be at all easy, but you could more likely focus on pattern, not the other host of problems. At least in US pet shop mice, there are often such depressing problems.

Love to see the results of such an extensive project. Don't have room for such an undertaking. Have pied mice, but not the drive to build Dutch mice, like I do for my other projects; who will use up all available space. So, I'd enjoy seeing someone else's.


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## mousefan (Nov 3, 2012)

I probably won't do it right away, but maybe once I get started. I am getting a trio of reverse Siamese from Beth, that carries satin. as well as a blue/pied blue trio from Michele this fall. and hopefully getting a trio of Black tans, and a trio of Dove tans from Tara end of January. Dutch will be fun, but I will probably do it down the road.


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## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

I have to admit that after reading this topic I kind of regret giving away most of my pied  
I've had some white with saddle only, and few with cheek patches and saddles, with little spots added. Oh well, I guess I can't breed ALL of the awesome varieties. It's a shame, though!

Reading your posts, SarahY, was a pleasure - I learned a lot from them, thanks for sharing!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Thank you, Lyra, that's very kind  x


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