# Double checking varieties etc.



## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Okay, so, I have three mice - one boy, Rory, and his sister, Tara, along with Tara's female friend, Willow.

According to Swedish standards, Rory and Tara are black/tan berkshire's (Rory with a blaze, and Tara with a spot on her forehead...) and Willow is an argente satin mix between either berkshire and even or berkshire and dutch. This means, had they had more white and the spots in the 'right' places, they'd all be considered broken, if I'm not mistaken.

Rory and Tara's mother looked exactly like them, although more like Tara because she too had a bit of white markings on her body. Willow's mother looked exactly the same as Willow. The fathers I know nothing about, I'm afraid.

Now, I want to hear what you think and how you'd categorise them, 'cause I want to be sure... And I want to learn more about varieties etc. 

Rory

























Tara

















Willow - looking a bit scruffy after being accidentally locked into a cage with our little man the other week. >> 

























Also, as the guy and the girls live pretty close to each other the girls most probably still go into heat from time to time... And we don't know if Will was in heat when she accidentally had a night with Rory, but if they do have babies, what might they look like? We've heard that argente belongs to aouti and black to self, so it should be different marked/spotted (or whatever) agoutis.

But also, we've heard that if Rory is Pp we might get an argente (red-eyed agouti), and that Will might be Aa and if so we could get black ones. If Rory - the dad - is Pp and little miss Willow is we might get dove (red-eyed svart?) with different markings/spots... vDoes this sound about right?


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm no good with the red colours yet, but Rory and Tara are both black broken(/piebald) tan.

Broken and piebald is two words for the same thing. One place I read that it is defined by how much white is on the mouse. Little white should be piebald, much white should be broken. But I don't really stick with that theory. Another place I read that piebald is what it's called in tje US. I think that is more right. Either way, same thing.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Just black broken tan or a bit of berkshire too? 
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varie ... shire.html


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

Tan can't be berkshire, as far as I know  Black broken tan.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Broken and piebald is two words for the same thing. One place I read that it is defined by how much white is on the mouse. Little white should be piebald, much white should be broken. But I don't really stick with that theory. Another place I read that piebald is what it's called in tje US. I think that is more right. Either way, same thing.


'Broken' is a specific standardised marking, like Dutch, even, variegated, rumpwhite, etc. A broken has little spots/patches of colour distributed randomly on a white background. Piebald just means colour and white, and any non-show standard marked mice fall under the name of piebald.

You can get Berkshire tans (you can get tans in any marking) however Berkshire is the name for a specific marking. Even though your mouse has a white belly marking, it is a piebald


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

SarahY said:


> > Broken and piebald is two words for the same thing. One place I read that it is defined by how much white is on the mouse. Little white should be piebald, much white should be broken. But I don't really stick with that theory. Another place I read that piebald is what it's called in tje US. I think that is more right. Either way, same thing.
> 
> 
> 'Broken' is a specific standardised marking, like Dutch, even, variegated, rumpwhite, etc. A broken has little spots/patches of colour distributed randomly on a white background. Piebald just means colour and white, and any non-show standard marked mice fall under the name of piebald.
> ...


That goes for Rory and Tara, right? Tara does, however, have the forehead marking and the white marking on her tummy just like a berkshire - but as Rory and Tara are siblings, I assume she can't be 'cause Rory only has the tummy...

]So what does that make Willow (the satin argente something something something)? 
xx


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

SarahY is correct! Berkshire is caused by the same gene that causes Broken, and Even marked mice (these are all specific types of markings, caused by the same gene). It's called piebald, the gene is written as s/s because it is recessive!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Willow is an argente piebald satin. I can't see if she's tan as well.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't think you can be argente, and tan, can you?


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Argente piebald satin. Got it. Her tummy is, as far as I've seen, all white.

How would I go about it to find out her genetics? I've been reading and reading, but it just seems to go over my head, if you know what I mean...? I can't figure it out. Or is it not possible to, as I don't know their fathers? ><


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> I don't think you can be argente, and tan, can you?


Course you can, why not?  You can get dove tan, and agouti tan, and you can get argente tan (A/at pp). I've seen plenty.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> How would I go about it to find out her genetics? I've been reading and reading, but it just seems to go over my head, if you know what I mean...? I can't figure it out. Or is it not possible to, as I don't know their fathers? ><


Well, you know for sure that she's A/* p/p sa/sa s/s, but if she carries anything else you won't know until you breed her, if you don't know what the parents were.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Her tummy is probably white because she's satin.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

SarahY said:


> > How would I go about it to find out her genetics? I've been reading and reading, but it just seems to go over my head, if you know what I mean...? I can't figure it out. Or is it not possible to, as I don't know their fathers? ><
> 
> 
> Well, you know for sure that she's A/* p/p sa/sa s/s, but if she carries anything else you won't know until you breed her, if you don't know what the parents were.


Thank you!  The mother was, I assume, the same as her - seeing as they were more or less identical.

Would you be able to tell with the beautiful siblings too? The mother was, in that case, more or less identical to Tara.

How easy is it to learn this through the internet? 'Cause so far I've been finding it confusing, but I think that's because there are so many different markings etc that I've found it difficult to differentiate between... Do you know any good websites that you find pretty good with this? I'm planning on/have possibly accidentally started breeding, mostly for pet/hobby/temper(ie. personality) purposes, but I'm interested in the genetics and stuff, hence all of my questions. I've got a lot of free time during uni, as I don't have more that a few hours and not even every day, and we have the space and the will and know about the health and temper of our current meeces, so for the purpose at hand, we have no problems (just so you know we're responsible  ).

Also, as Will and Rory might've mated, what would that POSSIBLY mean genetics wise?

Sorry about all the questions, but I want to know and learn as much as possible.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

This is an excellent website for learning lots of varieties and their genes:
http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/index.html

We know your other mice are at/* s/s by looking at them, but they could of course be carrying many other colours, although again you won't know until they produce. You can definitely expect more piebald black tans though!


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Thank you, that's very helpful! 

And at least now I have a starting point for learning more about varieties and stuff - with my own mice even.  Not that colours and markings _really_ matter when it comes to 'personality', right? ^^


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

You're welcome


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Do you have any photos of argente tans?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

No, sorry. They don't look like much really, the colours are too similar. You can clearly see the demarcation line though. They aren't bred for in their own right, but the bellies on British showmice must match the top colour exactly, so if an argente line starts to get too pale underneath the breeder will often do a dove tan outcross to increase the pheomelanins in the belly and strengthen the colour. The first generation are obviously argente tans, but then you start getting proper argentes again in the second generation.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Interesting! If you ever come across a photo, I'd like to see one!


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm getting unsure now. If I can, I'll try and post some photos of Willow's belly and you can help me figure out if she's tan or not. Would that be ok?


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

Rhasputin said:


> Her tummy is probably white because she's satin.


Why do you say this? I have satin mice that are self and satin mice that are piebald. I also have two argente born to a poor tan, but the color difference is barely noticable. They are first generation pet line.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I, too, have satin mice who are self, piebald, and/or tan. There's no connection that I'm aware of.


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

SarahY said:


> 'Broken' is a specific standardised marking, like Dutch, even, variegated, rumpwhite, etc. A broken has little spots/patches of colour distributed randomly on a white background. Piebald just means colour and white, and any non-show standard marked mice fall under :idea: the name of piebald.





Rhasputin said:


> SarahY is correct! Berkshire is caused by the same gene that causes Broken, and Even marked mice (these are all specific types of markings, caused by the same gene). It's called piebald, the gene is written as s/s because it is recessive!


Let me just get this straight. Piebald is the same gene as Broken? Just when it falls out of a standardised variety?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Yup, it's the same gene as Dutch, (most) evens, Berkshire etc; recessive spotting. Piebald is the term for any non-standard marked mouse, whereas broken, Dutch and Berkshire are piebalds which have been selectively bred to have markings in specific places.


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

SarahY said:


> Yup, it's the same gene as Dutch, (most) evens, Berkshire etc; recessive spotting. Piebald is the term for any non-standard marked mouse, whereas broken, Dutch and Berkshire are piebalds which have been selectively bred to have markings in specific places.


Thanks a lot for clearing that up for my slow brain :mrgreen:


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I said her tummy is probably white because she's satin . . . BECAUSE on average pet store quality mice, their bellies are lighter to begin with. Put satin on top of it, and it makes it seem more dramatic.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

I think she might have somewhat of a tan belly, although more white than the blacks. It's so hard to tell on her ><


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

So, *Rhasputin*, you meant a pale, poor tan belly, which would be genetically tan (at/* C/*) but might not appear the bright orangey tan seen elsewhere because it has not been selected for. If it's paler than the others, but still tan, she's tan. You often get the strongest, most vibrant tan on a black or agouti tan, with other colors being a little more diluted. If she's pink-eyed, it's no surprise that her tan isn't as rich as that on the black-eyed mice.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

So, if Will's an argente tan, is she then A/at p/p sa/sa s/s ?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

At the very least, you know she's A/at C/* p/p sa/sa s/s, yes. Is she related to the blacks? If so, she's probably also B/* D/*.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Laigaie said:


> So, *Rhasputin*, you meant a pale, poor tan belly, which would be genetically tan (at/* C/*) but might not appear the bright orangey tan seen elsewhere because it has not been selected for. If it's paler than the others, but still tan, she's tan. You often get the strongest, most vibrant tan on a black or agouti tan, with other colors being a little more diluted. If she's pink-eyed, it's no surprise that her tan isn't as rich as that on the black-eyed mice.


No I meant that on any given yellow mouse, the belly of a satin version of the same mouse will be lighter than the belly of the non satin version, without the tan gene present.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Aaaah! Okay. I think we were misunderstanding where you said "white" as meaning both genetically and phenotypically the shade of a pew, while you meant comparatively quite pale. All that said, I feel like satin seems to darken the shade of the fur, rather than lighten. That's why I'm always so confused by the shade I get when I take photos with flash. It's so pale! And bleached-out! And then I remember that satin is reflecting the light of the flash, preventing the camera from picking up on all the color my eye sees, and turn the flash off.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Laigaie said:


> Is she related to the blacks? If so, she's probably also B/* D/*.


Unless they have the same father or the mothers were related, no, she's not. They had different mothers. Tara and Rory's mother looked like Tara, Willow's looked like Willow (and her many siblings). But as I don't know the father/-s, or anything about the relationship between the mothers, I can't really say.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

She has a lot of white, but the places where she doesn't, she sure looks tan to me.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes she just looks like she has a pale underbelly (not un-common with mice bred outside of show lines) and it's compounded by the satin coat.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

That's what I thought.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

So she is not tan, or fox.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Oh, but from the hind legs and down, and on her sides the colour is way more... light 'brown' than her body.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

It's possible that her belly is white marked since she is piebald. But there is no clear line of demarcation, so she is not tan or fox.

And actually, the pictures are showing up very large now (they were tiny earlier for some reason) and i think that's the case. Her belly has white markings on it from the piebald gene.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Yeah, photobucket was being stupid... >>

So she's not A/at then, but merely A/*


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