# To create red...



## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I understand that the Ay gene can be procured from fawn and RY. Finnmouse indicates that breeding fawn to chocolate will bring out Ay. As it happens, I have agreed to trade a blue mouse to an Ontario breeder. I just need to figure out if I'd like fawn or chocolate in return. Given I have RY, should I select a fawn buck? Or would chocolate be more useful? I could of course get both but her mice are not satin (my favourite) and I feel I need to keep my numbers low as I explore what genes I have available within my own mice.

The sooty RY has a lovely, docile personality compared to her sisters who are more skittish so I'm thinking of a buck for her and her pied RY sister.

After a day of hesitation, I have my blue doe in with the beige buck. I contemplated breeding another doe at the same time but am unsure if beige is the best for these RY ladies.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

i'm not entirely sure what you are asking, but the only way to produce a red mouse with an ay gene is by breeding from a mouse that has an ay gene. from your description and photo, it appears you have mice with recessive yellow and pink-eyed dilute, so if your goal is a fawn self, you could do that with your existing mice.

if you're trying to decide between acquiring a fawn or a chocolate to improve your existing reds and fawns, chocolate could help reduce sootiness in the reds (but only when expressed as a homozygous condition, not in the initial cross), while the fawn might help both, but only if it has better color than your own do - by introducing more reddish pheomelanin modifiers.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Oh excellent, I was worried the genetics experts had disappeared! Thank you for your reply!

Ah, okay, so the only way to get red from a fawn x chocolate pairing is only if one of them carries Ay? I just read, "If there are no Reds available, the gene can be obtained from Fawn. Mate the Fawn with a good Cinnamon or Chocolate." But I'm not sure how a gene would just appear out of thin air.

Sorry my question wasn't clear, I think the site threw me a little thinking I could create it, and potentially while using recessive yellow. I'll keep an eye out for a rich fawn! From what I've seen of the breeder's fawns, they're certainly an improvement upon mine. Breeding to the beige removed some of the vibrancy so I'll avoid that (or it was a coincidence, who knows).


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Seafolly said:


> Oh excellent, I was worried the genetics experts had disappeared! Thank you for your reply!
> 
> Ah, okay, so the only way to get red from a fawn x chocolate pairing is only if one of them carries Ay? I just read, "If there are no Reds available, the gene can be obtained from Fawn. Mate the Fawn with a good Cinnamon or Chocolate." But I'm not sure how a gene would just appear out of thin air.
> 
> Sorry my question wasn't clear, I think the site threw me a little thinking I could create it, and potentially while using recessive yellow. I'll keep an eye out for a rich fawn! From what I've seen of the breeder's fawns, they're certainly an improvement upon mine. Breeding to the beige removed some of the vibrancy so I'll avoid that (or it was a coincidence, who knows).


oh, i'm no expert. but i'm happy to discuss genetics.

finnmouse is a european site, and most (virtually all) reds in europe are red because they express the ay gene. in the us and canada, recessive yellow is far more common, and most north american reds and fawns are e/e. fawn is a red (either ay or e/e) that also expresses the pink-eyed dilution gene.

keep in mind that red and fawn are colors (show classifications). any mouse, regardless of what genes they have, that fits into those colors can be described as red or fawn. recessive yellow and lethal yellow (lethal red) are genes. so a red can be recessive yellow, or lethal yellow. potentially, they can even be an undermarked viable yellow.

all of the c locus genes (albino, extreme dilute - which is beige, chinchilla and himalayan) have a strong dilution effect on reddish and yellowish pigments, so breeding any of them into a red or fawn line will dull those colors. even in the heterozygote condition, it isn't surprising that they would have visible effect.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

a mouse cant carry Ay its the most highest on the A allie, you could only get Ay reds from a fawn if it is an Ay mouse with pink eye genes.
Ay/* = Red
Ay/* p/p = Fawn.

So if your fawns are from RY reds then they wont make Ay reds but you could work to get just RY reds with out te pink eye diluting them to fawn.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

The RY gene is actually e/e, not Ay, so you're talking about two different genes. It is possible to get a similar LOOKING color by selective breeding, but it will take a lot of generations. I understand it is the same pigment (phenel--something-or-other) that makes the red color in both cases, but there are 2 different genes that cause the yellow/red fur to show up instead of the normal base color.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Oh wow I didn't realize the genes themselves didn't matter in the show scenario. Cool fact! Well I'm thrilled I didn't end up placing my pied RY (well, the 2nd generation) in with the buck after reading that.

Thanks so much for your replies! That clears up the whole "you can create" wording. That seemed totally bizarre. I'll keep my eyes out for a rich fawn buck for the 3rd generation.  Or another 2nd, rather. I expect my upcoming litter won't likely have any RY. Cross your fingers for smoke.  With better lgh coats! I appear to be deviating in two different directions which is okay in the beginning I suppose.

Many thanks to you all, as always!


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

The advantage of recessive yellow over lethal yellow A is that RY doesn't have the health issues of obesity, potential diabetes etc. Working with chocolate, eliminating PE and/or any stray c-dilutes, and selecting for colour and less sootiness should bring you good results. Actually, there's no reason why you couldn't work with A as well if you get one with excellent colour. You could use this to improve the recessive yellows to a richer colour, but the trick would be not to lose the RY gene as the A is dominant.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Another advantage of working with Ay is that they have been selectively bred for hundreds of generations, at least if you get good English stock. That means their pigments have been concentrated WAY more than the RYs, and it will take a long time to get RYs anywhere near that depth of color.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Heyyy guess what? I was just perusing Finnmouse to learn about smoke and found this: http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varie ... sable.html Given this is how one of my girl appears to a tee (perhaps more yellow than red) is it possible she's not a sooty RY, but lilac sable? It sure would explain a lot!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Unless you have umbrous, you don't have sable. I don't believe Umbrous exists in Canada unless you have gotten some lines imported.

Autumn....e/e can be pretty quickly improved to the level of good A^y's if good A^y line mice are used to improve it. This is what I am working on....but also with x-brindle...


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I have nooooo idea what Canada has. I do know of imports but I think they were Swiss Webster mice. I can only judge by what I've seen which isn't much. I just learned last week that we appear to have curly coats (a friend's mouse is quite curly). So who knows.


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