# Need Help Identifying Color



## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

So I may have already posted a similar topic before, I'm not really sure, but I'm still trying to get this figured out so here goes!

The picture below is Caramel. I am planning a little breeding experiment, mostly to test how size and type are inherited but also to test my knowledge of genetics and inheritance. Part of that means making predictions about color and genotype of the offspring and then comparing the results.

I was told she was a recessive yellow, but since then I have also heard from others that she seems to be a very undermarked gold/blue brindle. She also has pink-eyes, but I don't know if that is caused by the pink-eyed dilution or some other dilution in her case.

Some background info: Her father was a Satin Recessive Yellow. Her mother was described as a "Black Brindle," which apparently means black stripes on a regular (fawn?) background. The grandparents (on the mother's side) are a Longhair Satin Blue Tan buck and a "C-Dilute Brindle" doe. The C-Dilute Brindle was described to me as having gray stripes on a whitish background.

Is it possible for Caramel to be both a gold/blue Brindle AND a recessive yellow at the same time? Wouldn't the genes for blue cancel out the recessive yellow? Does she have pink-eyed dilution too?

I'm working on getting more pictures of her, but so far this is the one that has the best lighting.


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## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

From my experience with brindles, here goes...

I do know that in order for her to be a 'blue brindle', she would have black eyes, not pink. I've never seen a silver brindle before, but it may be possible... however I don't believe your mouse is a silver brindle.

If she has a blue undercoat when you blow back her hair, she's an argente. If there is no blue undercoat, she may very well be a simple recessive yellow with the pink eye dilution. If you're in the USA, I know that recessive yellow can have either black or pink eyes. My satin blue tan buck produced recessive yellow in a few litters before, and I've also had a recessive yellow pop up from a blue x silver breeding (siblings bred together), that originally came from their grandma, who was a blue brindle.

Fawn is pink-eyed red, and a black brindle would not have a fawn background. The background color would be that recessive yellow.

Your question if whether or not Caramel could be a gold/blue brindle and recessive yellow at the same time -- no. Not Caramel... but an actual blue brindle mouse can have a recessive yellow background color. Other than a PEW hiding brindling under all the white, a brindled mouse should have some sort of indication that it is in fact a brindle... even if it's as little as small parts of their hair being a different color. That would be an undermarked brindle, I'd assume. Overmarked are mice that are brindled but look sooty because of how much of that brindle pattern covers their coat.

At a first glance, and all that considered, I would say Caramel is a recessive yellow.

I hope that helps some. c:


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## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

Here are some brindles I've had

*Blue Brindle:*










*Dove Brindle:*










*Black Brindle:*




























*Chocolate Brindle:*









_She looks like a satin recessive yellow, but she does have chocolate brindling. _

*And babies with brindling:*

_PEW, not sure if it was a brindle or not, never bred it. Middle is a black brindle, and the bottom is a chocolate brindle._


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

I've just been really confused at all the mixed messages I've gotten...

I was really confused by the terminology the breeder used to describe her brindles, since it's nothing like the AFRMA descriptions that I was using to get accurate genetic data (the folks that are trying to get a local club up and running are basing most of their standards on the AFRMA standards). They describe them in terms of "color of stripes/color of background," so they have so far:

Avy*: "black/fawn" 
Avy* bb : "chocolate/red" (combining Brindle & chocolate)
Avy* c^e/c^e : "Beige/white" (combining Brindle & beige)
Avy* c^ch/c^ch (one of several possibilities): "Silver" ("white/pale cream with black/dark gray stripes")
Avy* dd : "Blue/Gold" (Combining brindle with blue)

So I was very confused by the breeder's descriptions of "black brindle" and "c-dilute brindle." I wasn't sure if "black brindle" meant the stripes were black, or the background, and I had no idea what "c-dilute" meant because as far as I could tell there were several possible genes involved resulting in several different colors...

Caramel has a couple very faint patches of a sort of bluish-white color, but they're very hard to see (mostly along her butt). So some people were saying she was an "undermarked" Brindle?

Then I read that blue usually negates recessive yellow, but Brindle is based on dominant/viable yellow which would overpower the blue. Then someone else said recessive yellow would overpower the Brindle, and...yeah. Totally confused.

Is this going to end up being something where I just have to go ahead with the breeding and see what comes out?

The breeding project I'm doing is more about testing inheritance for size and type, the color issue is just for practice with predictions and testing for genes...but I feel like it's still important to know.


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## andypandy29us (Aug 10, 2012)

she looks very similar to an ARGENTE I had called her caramel too


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

Can you get an Argente out of Caramel's background? Out of a recessive yellow sire and a black brindle dam?

Not trying to contradict anyone, just trying to learn the fiber details of how all this works.


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## andypandy29us (Aug 10, 2012)

no idea lol im not great with genetics yet  ... she just looks the same as my argente girl


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

She doesn't seem to have much of an undercoat color...it looks pretty solidly yellow all the way through, except for those very faint patches of bluish-white...

I have a feeling this is going to turn into "breed her and see what pops out."


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## Pandapop (Jul 27, 2012)

With the AFRMA, I take what they say with a grain of salt. A black/fawn mouse wouldn't be possible, since fawn is pink-eyed red, and red mice have no black pigment. If they say 'fawn' as to describe the color and not the actual gene, then I suppose that would be correct... but honestly, I find it confusing and prefer not to describe my mice that way.

A mouse that the AFRMA would describe as a fawn brindle, I would call a black brindled A^vy. The US doesn't have red mice quite as readily as the UK, so most chocolate brindles would also be A^vy, instead of red. I need to experiment more with my brindle mice, but other than that recessive yellow background, I haven't seen much else. I would personally like to know how they got that beige brindle!

But now back to Caramel... if you say she has faint bluish/white marks, that tells me she's probably a dove brindle. Dove brindling on a recessive yellow background. If you're still unsure if she's brindled or not, try breeding her with a solid mouse. Brindle is dominant, and some of the offspring will be brindled if she herself is a brindle. I don't recommend breeding to a PEW, but a solid black or even dove would work just fine. If no babies are brindled, either try with another solid buck, or look for an argente male.


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

Caramel had her litter on January 4th, and we have confirmation of some genes!

Looks like Caramel is indeed a brindle. Still not sure exactly what sort of brindle though; closest I've found was a lilac brindle on the Finn Mouse website. It also looks like she is genetically tan (just blends in with the rest of her though) and carrying chocolate, because one of her daughters appear to be a chocolate tan!

Their names are: Americano (Brindle, upper left, buck), Butterscotch (the brindle doe with the heaviest markings, bottom left), Truffle (the chocolate tan), and Macchiato (the barely brindle splashed buck on the bottom right.)

The picture was taken yesterday, at 12 days old. Not sure what sort of brindle any of these are just yet; those stripes are still murky enough in color that they could be either black or chocolate.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

from what ive hurd brindle is called after the colour of the stripes not the backgrond colour so you would get blakc brindle, choc brindle, blue brindle ext.

What colour was the buck you put her to?


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## YuukikoOgawa (Jul 26, 2013)

The buck is a Himalayan Splashed (this is part of my size experiment, I know that's a screwy combo). He is confirmed to be carrying chocolate; he was previously paired with his sister, Nutmeg, and produced at least one chocolate point siamese, and there's that confirmed chocolate tan in this litter.

His genotype is confirmed to be:

aa Bb Btbt cc^h D* E* P* ww Lgh* Sa* pp Splspl

I know that at the very least, Caramel has to be A^vy/a^t b* C* Ee ww Lgh* Sasa splspl.

She could still be carrying a c-dilute of some sort, because this litter started as ten and ended up with four, so there may have been a c-dilute pup that was lost that would've confirmed that. Difficult to say for certain there. Because her grandfather was a satin longhair blue tan, there's also a chance that she could be carrying blue and longhair. That buck has been known to throw blue, black, chocolate, often with broken or satin. Since Caramel's grandmother originated in a pet store, it's next to impossible to know for sure what any of her genes are; she was described to me as a "c-dilute brindle," with beige stripes over a white/light gray coat. The original breeder didn't specify anything beyond that point.

Caramel's father was a satin recessive yellow, and the original breeder again did not give me any more information beyond that point.

So Caramel could be Bb or bb. Her stripes are so subtle that I can't quite tell what color they are, but she looks closest to the Lilac Brindle in this picture:

http://www.hiiret.fi/pics/PQbrindles.jpg

If it turns out that she is a Lilac Brindle, that would make her genotype A^vy a^t bb Bt* C* dd Ee pp ww Lgh* Sasa splspl

I'm not sure how to proceed with test breeding from here. I'm not comfortable breeding Caramel herself again, but there's two females in this litter: Truffle, the chocolate tan, and Butterscotch, the brindle in the lower left of the picture I posted, the one with the heaviest stripes.


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