# CSBeck Rodentry Holiday Babies!



## Stina

OMG.....so I made this huge long post with baby pics and everyone sorted by the litter they're from and who the parents were......and at some point I was auto logged off so when I went to save it dissappeared and told me I couldn't post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!      ....here is try number 2...I'm not going to take the time to say who the parents are this time around though... Their eyes are kinda goopy looking b/c they literally JUST opened....lol These babies were all born Christmas Eve, Christmas day, or the day or 2 after 


2012-01-08 132 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 138 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 133 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 127 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 122 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 119 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 113 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 107 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 094 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 087 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 076 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 072 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 063 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 062 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 059 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 057 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 054 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 050 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 041 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 034 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 025 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 020 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 015 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 011 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 006 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 005 by CSBeck, on Flickr


2012-01-08 004 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-08 003 by CSBeck, on Flickr

I have one more litter of blue and burmese curlies...but there's really nothing special compared to the ones above so I didn't feel like taking their pics too...lol

This is the lovely CSB Verboten! She had babies on New Years Day! I will post pics of her bubs and the other litters I have (that have been born since then) once their eyes open!

2012-01-06 072 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-06 071 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-06 070 by CSBeck, on Flickr

2012-01-06 069 by CSBeck, on Flickr

...and here's a couple pics of one of the litters a few days ago that is just too cute not to share!

2012-01-06 018 by CSBeck, on Flickr

More pics of the babies above can be seen in my flickr albums 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stinaksu/s ... 530420053/


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## peztree3

Beautiful Mice!


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## Laigaie

They do all look absolutely lovely, and very healthy! I particularly love the look of that first little girl. Very pretty.


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## Stina

Thank you!

That first little one is a satin e/e x-brindle and I'm super excited for her! Her mother is a satin e/e x-brindle 2 generations from an Ay mouse, and her father is a cinnamon out of an e/e mouse and an Ay mouse. Hopefully I will get some good color out of her! The other brown ones are out of her e/e pied sister and b/c of the pigmentation and the crossing with the Ay's I'm not even sure if they are chocolate, e/e, or cinnamon...lol

None of these guys will have great type...but I am working on it. The reds/x-brindles heads are too long/narrow, but they aren't too bad otherwise...the blues (working for black eyed silver) have decent heads and their coats aren't too bad as adults, but their ears are terrible and their bodies definitely need improvement...lol

Most of the blue ones are also manx


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## MoonfallTheFox

That last picture...you have a tail nibbler in there.  And some very very cute bubs!

Lovely mice. <3


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## Rhasputin

No tail nibblers in there, those are MANX!


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## Stina

Moonfall...nearly all of these mice are manx...which means they have various degrees of shortened tail  It is genetic, not nibbling!


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## sys15

it looks like there are four with points? those are blue burmese? is is typical that they would already display points at that age?


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## Stina

Yes, some of them are burmese....and it is not uncommon for them to show points at this age


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## sys15

very pretty. is the age at which they exhibit points correlated with the strength of coloring of the points?


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## Frizzle

Stina said:


> Moonfall...nearly all of these mice are manx...which means they have various degrees of shortened tail  It is genetic, not nibbling!


I thought manx meant no tail at all? Or does it have some co-dominance that you use selective breeding on?


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## SarahY

Very nice pictures  Eyes-just-opened is my favourite stage of mouse development :love1


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## Stina

With my blue burmese I've not really seen a correlation between point development and deepness of points as adults...but most of my adults barely have visible points at all....possibly b/c they are blue

Frizzle, manx in the US is simple dominant...they either are manx or aren't. It works very very similarly to cats, except so far as I'm aware double manx in mice isn't as dangerous. Even manx cats do not normally have no tails at all, they are just only shown when they are completely tailless. Most manx mice have some degree of tail from a tiny nub (similar to what Verboten has with her little bunny tail or a little smaller) to nearly a full length tail. I'd say the average I've seen is between a nub and 1/3 of a tail. Recessive manx in Australia is completely different...the recessive manx never have so long of a tail but still often have a little curly tail left.

SarahY, it is my favorite stage as well!...and thank you!


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## Laigaie

Would the little bunny nub, then, be considered the ideal? I know with rats, taillessness can go too far and cause issues with spinal attachments to the guts, but if the bunny nub is the extreme, that seems much safer!


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## Stina

Ideal for me, considering breeding ability, is a little smaller then Verboten's (just a couple visible tail vertebrae). I've not had any health problems with completely tailless, but they are less virile! I haven't had many with absolutely no tails though. It seems as long as they have a tiny nub, they have no problems with anything 

...I've also never heard of more then 1 or 2 issues with manx rats having problems...I breed them as well. Manx in rats is also a recessive trait, but not simple recessive and is a pain to produce reliably! Regardless it can't really be compared to manx mice as it is totally unrelated.


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## Laigaie

My first rats as a kid came from a part-manx litter that was dropped off, with multiple litters in minuscule cages at my veterinarian. Several of the 15 or so pups had major problems due to the manx shortening their spine to the point that they were missing several vertebrae inside their bodies. They had poor mobility and did not appear to have proper gut function, and so were put down. I am glad to hear that it does not work similarly in mice! Watching the vets and vet techs handle the poor babies was a nightmare.


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## Stina

That is EXTREMELY uncommon in manx rats...and if there were a bunch of manx, it either wasn't the same gene as that that's around now, or someone was breeding them extremely irresponsibly, or both (sounds like they were at least breeding extremely irresponsibly). Even when breeding manx to manx you normally don't get more than a couple manx offspring.


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## Laigaie

There was a pretty good spectrum from full-tail to half-tail to manx to problems. And given the set-up that was left there, it honestly looked like some kid had bought a male and female rat and left them to it, only buying more cages when you literally could not fit more rats into the existing one. If it weren't for the manx, that's what I would've assumed. Even with feeder mice breeders (and I've toured a few looking for stock), I've never seen such irresponsible breeding.


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## Stina

The current manx rat gene NEVER produces half tails, the rats are nearly always complete tailless. I've heard of only 1 baby born with a nub tail. It was certainly not the same gene.

I wonder if perhaps those rats weren't actually manx but if one of the adults chewed off the babies tails as newborns.


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## Laigaie

That wouldn't've caused the shortened spines, though, unless that's a separate issue. Being the vet's office, they took lots of lovely x-rays. Now you make me wish I'd asked them more about what was going on!


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## sys15

Stina said:


> With my blue burmese I've not really seen a correlation between point development and deepness of points as adults...but most of my adults barely have visible points at all....possibly b/c they are blue


thanks for the info, stina.


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## Stina

> That wouldn't've caused the shortened spines, though, unless that's a separate issue. Being the vet's office, they took lots of lovely x-rays. Now you make me wish I'd asked them more about what was going on!


Why wouldn't it?...if they chewed them down that far as newborns it certainly could.


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## MoonfallTheFox

Ah..alright. I'm not familiar with that gene in mice and it's fairly look down on in the rat fancy. Manx rats DO have problems, a shortened spine can happen, they often have trouble balancing and regulating heat, among other things.


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## Stina

It depends who you talk to. Most of the people who claim all the problems, have never worked with them or actually known anyone who experienced any such problems. My manx have never had any issues whatsoever...they balance and climb just fine and they live in a temp controlled environment....so I've never noticed any sort of problems with regulating heat. And a lot of people who claim temp control problems will say it about manx, but have no problem with hairless. They would be at a disadvantage in the wild....but so would pretty much ANY domestic mutations...including most of the color and marking variations. Manx rats CAN have problems....VERY rarely....so can other genes... I have literally heard of 2 babies, from one litter, that had incontinence problems....I have never heard from anyone else that they knew of any specific animals with any problems. I've heard of FAAAAR more health problems with hairless....and yet very very very few people discourage anyone from breeding it (besides discouraging breeding hairless females). The ONLY problem I've had with my manx rats, is that the darn gene is not simple recessive and I've yet to have more then 1 manx in a litter...

To each his own of course, but I have yet to see any convincing, actual reason why manx should be discouraged or that I should avoid breeding it. If it actually had a significant rate of health problems I would avoid it....but in reality it doesn't. If you don't like it, don't work with or have it...but don't look down on it and those who choose to work with it based on rumors and stigma.


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## SarahC

Stina said:


> . They would be at a disadvantage in the wild....but so would pretty much ANY domestic mutation. :clap
> 
> To each his own of course, If you don't like it, don't work with or have it...but don't look down on it and those who choose to work with it based on rumors and stigma :clap .


they don't appeal to me but I agree with your post.


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## Rhasputin

Stina said:


> It depends who you talk to. Most of the people who claim all the problems, have never worked with them or actually known anyone who experienced any such problems.
> .


This. So much.
The first forum that comes up when you search for rat forums, is basically anti-breeding, anti manx, anti hairless, anti everything. They'll tell you manx all have ALL of those problems, and more, but none of them have bred them before. :roll:

I have a manx rat, and she is exactly the same as the other rats. Other than she likes to sit upright on her butt, because there is no tail in the way. . . but that's a convenience, not a problem. :lol:


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## Frizzle

^^^
Regarding that, _is_ there even any pro-breeding rat sites? I know I haven't seen any.


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## SarahY

> Regarding that, is there even any pro-breeding rat sites? I know I haven't seen any.


 :lol:

I had a tailess rat born in a litter. Her tail was TINY, about 1cm long and maybe 2mm thick, and it curled round like a pig tail. She used to hop like a rabbit rather than scurry like a rat, but she could climb absolutely fine.

It's the same as inbreeding, people just assume it's bad without knowing the facts *shrug*.


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## Rhasputin

INBREEDING!?
YOU MEAN YOU WANT TO MARRY YOUR COUSIN!?

That's the response you get most of the time. :roll: :lol:


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## Laigaie

:lol: Trying to explain to friends which mouse is related to which mouse is always fun. "You mean he's her uncle-daddy?" Er, yeah. Uncle-daddy. That works.

On-topic, though, I keep going back to #71, and thinking how much she looks like a baby rabbit. It's quite possibly the cutest non-standard tail I've seen in ages.


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## Stina

lol  That's one of Verboten's pics right? She such a cutie and a sweetie! ...plus she poses for photos...which makes her even awesomer...lol She is the best mousey!


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