# Surprise! Coat colour ;)



## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

I recently had a litter, the pups' mum is agouti self, and the father's agouti broken tan. They were bred for character rather then colour, and I was expecting a whole litter of agoutis and few blacks, selves and tans. Because of this, I wasn't surprised when all of the pups had black eyes, but after few days I noticed that 4 of them were noticeably lighter than their littermates. Right now, the 3 of them have light, silver coats, and 1 is of a slightly darker, warmer shade :shock: 
And, as I don't know what carried their parents (both of their breeders bred them for a pet store, the mother had argente siblings, the father was from a mostly black broken tan line), it's hard for me to guess what colour they could be - my guesses so far are too cold beige and coffee, or too light blue and blue agouti. Not something I could expect from a litter from two pet-typed mice, as most (if not all) of pet shop mice here are pew, black or agouti broken, sometimes pp diluted.
The two pictures with dark background were taken 2 days ago in the evening, and the other ones, yesterday afternoon. With the agouti self sibling for comparison 
Any guesses, what those cute pups could be? The help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

one of them looks ticlked so id say there are some sort of c diluts, one agouti based (cant see its belly) and one black tan based.

cch/c with black tan would make stone fox, with agouti doesnt seem to have a name. but thres a pic of an agouti tan cch/c on fin mouse looks a simmaler shade as yours (second from bottom on left)
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/c-ch2.html

If they dont get points you know they dont have a ch gene.


----------



## nataliew (Feb 2, 2013)

Very cute babies :love


----------



## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

My uneducated eyes see a beige/stone mouse. c-dilutes sure are confusing.


----------



## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

Thank you - I looked closely at their bellies and the light ones appear to be foxes. I'm going to wait few days to see which ones are ticked, as their fur is too short for me to notice that now 
I kind of hoped they wouldn't be c-diluted, because of all the possibilities 

I'm glad you like them, nataliew - I absolutely adore them, and they look even cuter now, as they're opening their eyes


----------



## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

The possibilities is what makes it fun! My foundation buck is either a light stone or a dark bone (satin makes it impossible to tell without more litters). I adore it!


----------



## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

A little update - the mousies grew up, so took some new photos. As I don't have my own camera and I have to borrow it from my friends, there are only few pictures, but I think they show little one's colours quite well. 
I don't see points, so I guess they couldn't be c^h , but after the FinnMouse lecture (thank you, *PPVallhunds*  ) I still wonder if they are very light c^ch/c or rather dark c^e/c.
There are two ticked, self mice, and two black based foxes.

Oh, right, I think I need to mention that the two mice who have the fur barbed, had that done by me when they were still little, so I could easily tell apart boys from girls after the "female nipple stage"


----------



## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

Few months passed and I assumed my mice were cch/c, however I'm afraid I'm not so sure anymore.
I breed the non-agouti doe that I've kept back to her agouti father and got two homozygous pups who I hoped would be chinchilla, but ended more like a chocolate foxes. I'm not sure if they are ticked or not (they look non-agouti, but their fur is still very short and my eyesight is rather poor) and I wonder now, is it more possible for them to be very dark ce/ce or much too light cch/cch?

Their mum (was one of the light pups I posted before):


The lighter pups from the same litter:

(They look the same they mother did when she was small.)

Pups in question:



They were agouti tans and black tans (foxes?) in this litter too, but the blacks from these particular mice are always very poor, so I'm not sure if they yellowish tinge is a poor tan or fox...

Help, please?


----------



## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

I can't offer any help, but thought I should say I always read posts like this in hopes, one day, of getting an answer. I will also share my frustration, in sympathy, in case you still don't find your answer.

I have the non-ticked version of your problem (the mom posted with her offspring). Mine has a much darker muzzle, but who knows if it's anything to do with ch. (No evidence of any points on offspring, but high white pied makes that possible to miss.) I've not had any agouti in that group, nor do I now have any extra agouti to attempt test breeding with. I'm also pretty sure I can't visually identify poor chocolates, or something. Assumed I had poor chocolate, but they don't produce anything like you would expect.

The problem color range produces the same odd questionables, as yours at the bottom. No matter what I've tried inputting, parents or offspring, no gene combinations ever suggested on any post, no matter how many years back, have worked. The babies can not have come from the parents, says the program, every time. Might be the limitations of the data in the program, or more likely just the user.

The tans with actual black are always clear enough as tans, but it's difficult to know if the 'white' where the tan should be on the beige/bronze/almost black/tanish/greyish etc top colored babies are not just extremely poor tans, or a spread of s/s all over the belly. (I think at least I can visually say for sure that the actual blacks are BLACK. I think.) My guess at this point is something like ce, either two copies or with c, but it's just not working out with the offspring.

Good luck.


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

They could very well be a/a cch/cch or at/a cch/cch if they are Fox. As cch doesn't dilute black very much, it does dilute Brown more than black but still not as much as the other c genes.

A/a ce/ce would be a baige to coffee colour and they look too dark brown to be ce/ce however cch/ce can give a mock choc

As for weather tan of Fox you could have both as you know the farther carries a c dilute and the mother is c diluted so as Fox is c diluted tan it's a fair bet to say some will be poor tan and some poor fox.


----------



## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

*ThatCertainGlow*, thank you for that post. I hope you and I will find our answers someday  If I find out anything, I'll post results here, so it may help someone in the future.

*PPVallhunds*, I've seen descriptions of sepia (a/a cch/cch), but didn't see enough photos of them, I'm afraid. How light they could be and what could affect that? I don't think my mice carry anything other than c dilutions, as nothing else ever appeared. 
The buck is A/at C/cch or A/at C/ce, doe (his daughter) could be a/at cch/c, cch/e, ce/c or ce/ce.
So the c-diluted pups of each version of pairing could be:
*1)*
-cch/cch
-cch/c
OR
*2)*
-cch/cch
-cch/ce
OR
*3)*
-ce/ce
-ce/c
OR
*4)*
-ce/ce only
in agouti and non-agouti.

Am I thinking right?
I guess if it's ok you are right and options 3 and 4 are not possible, as there are pups much darker than ce/ce.


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

a/a cch/cch would look just like the foxes do except with out the white belly, so would look black and choc but the black would be a tad lighter if next to a good black self and the choc would be lighter than a good choc self. I've Hurd it described as dark choc you want for self and tan and the foxes end up looking more milk choc.

Reading up both cch/c and cch/ce look alike and make a range of brown, from mock choc to light choc, coffee but cch/c can be lighter then cch/ce.
So cch/ce mock choc to light choc
cch/c darkest mock choc, coffee to even bark baige as lightest. (I call this sepia as that's what I was told by another breeder but notice fin mouse calls cch/cch on a/a sepia, I'd call them mock black/choc)

I think you best bet is to do a brother sister breeding rather than farther daughter, might tell you more.

I'll look for pics of my cch/c for you.


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Are the pair of babies an off black colour? They look it on my screen if so then can't be cch/ce or cch/c as that on a black mouse give Brown colour of some sort and ce/ce on black give baige and ce/c would give cream on a black mouse. so if they are an off black colour they must be cch/cch


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

here is a comparison of cch/cch and cch/c








the left doe is one of my choc foxes at/at b/b cch/cch and the right doe is genaticaly NOT choc she is at/a B/# cch/c she is the darkest of the sepia foxes. My black foxes cch/cch look normal black unless next to a good black self then they look a shade lighter but I would think if the mice had not been selectively bred to be darker a black cch/chh could be quite light.
here is one from finnmouse a/a B/ cch/chh this is lighter than the blacks on my foxes especialy on the head









I don't have the lighter cch/c anymore but here are some pics I could find
3 babies light/darker/light all cch/c (ecept the c/c ont he left lol)








a slightly lighter than the adult doe cch/c I had lighter but cant find pics


----------



## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

Oh wow, thank you for your trouble, I'm really grateful!
Beauties, your foxes 

I'm afraid mine are not really that close to black, though... Their colour is similar to dark, but rather dull chocolate. I've taken some pictures today with the rest of the litter, but it's hard to capture their colour right. The background was a plain, white sheet of paper:




The bellies, black at the top, pup in question at the bottom (he's a quite nice white fox).


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

I would still think that you were right with mother being cch/c and her farther being C/cch as that would make the lighter two cch/c like the mother and the brown one's cch/cch but I'd guess there not black based but choc, makes most sence to me. b could be hiding away in the line sodas could be B/b the daughter got his b so is also B/b.

For the belly pic is say yes the bottom pup is Fox and I'd guess the top one is poor tan

So I'd guess the brown pups in question are choc Foxes. Either way if they are tan and c diluted there some sort of fox.

I'd breed if possible one of the possibly choc Fox to a black tan litter mate and see if any choc comes out. And the other possible choc Fox to one of the light litter mates to see what c dilutes you get.


----------



## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

Ok, I'll do just that - so it happens that the brown ones are males, while the light ones and black are females  The results of these pairings will be posted, of course!
Thank you for your help, PPVallhunds, I really appreciate it! ^^


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

No problem I like a good genetic mistory


----------

