# Taking money out of the equation...



## love2read

I've thought long and hard about this and have decided to stop "selling" mice for now.

I love breeding mice. It's a wonderful experience and learning about the genetics is just as fun as having bubs.  However, since I started breeding show-type some of the joy has gone out of it because instead of being able to just enjoy the babies and share pics of my faves I find myself loathing having to take pictures because I know that if I take pics of some I need to take pics of ALL. After all, you can't sell cute critters without cute pics! *sigh*

I also really wanted to go to the the Rodentfest so I could attend the show, but in order to do that I need to sell a TON of bubs and by the time the show rolls around I'm going to be freaking SICK of mice at the rate things are going!  Besides, I'd rather show mice I bred myself from lines I've had for at LEAST a couple generations, otherwise I can't take full pride in them. Anyone can pair 2 great mice together and get great babies, but carefully choosing the best of each generation and breeding them together takes more effort. If done right you can get BETTER mice then what you originally got, but if done wrong you could end up with crap. As I've heard many-a-times, just because a mouse is from show-type lines doesn't make it a show mouse...

Soooo...I've decided to cancel the adoptions I had lined up for the show and instead I will be offering whichever babies I don't keep at NO CHARGE to other breeders. However, they will have to be picked up in person either by the person getting the mice or by someone they trust who will then RR the mice to whomever is getting them. I will not be keeping any "surplus" mice past 6 weeks. This means that if anyone wants babies then they will have to get them as soon as they're ready(boys are ready at 4 weeks and girls at 6 weeks)! We are currently living with friends and space is VERY limited. I want to focus on breeding show-type mice and need every square inch I can get in order to do so, which means not having to find room for tons of babies who are waiting to get picked up. :/

I apologize to those of you who were wanting mice from me at the show and will no longer be able to get them.  On a brighter note, if you're able to find someone to get them for you then you won't have to pay a dime!

That being said, if anyone is interested in bubs you're more then welcome to contact me in the future and if I have what you're wanting and you're able to come get them then they're all yours. Certain mice will only be allowed to go to breeders I know and trust, such as mice from TH(True Hairless) lines.

BTW, I want to say thank you to breeders in the UK. You have given me a whole new perspective on mouse breeding! You guys have such amazing mice that I'm sure alot of time, effort, and money has gone into and yet you breed purely for joy, not money, which allows you to fully enjoy the hobby without the constraints of having to break even or meet people's demands. All you want to do is enjoy breeding mice and then spread the joy when you have babies to share. Kudos to you all and thank you for rubbing off on me and allowing me to see what it's all about so I, too, can fully enjoy mouse breeding! *hugs*


----------



## SarahY

Good for you 

I can't see anything more pointless than charging for mice. If I did charge people, it would go nowhere near the cost of maintenance and showing so why even bother? I breed mice entirely for myself but am happy to help others with stock if it's needed. I sold pet rats from every litter when I bred them and found the whole thing very stressful indeed! I felt like I was breeding for others and quite often put myself and my breeding plans out so that people could have what I'd promised them. People were quite demanding, they wanted photographs every week and to come and visit, I'm so glad I don't bother doing all that with the mice


----------



## SarahC

I empathise completely.I never used to charge anyone for mice however demand got out of hand,more stuff for people than I've got space for ,people round all the time or a boot full of animals to take to every show,people wanting stuff collecting from every show.Most of those people never to be seen again,despite promising that the mice were for breeding from for show purposes.Now I am charging for initial stock but if the person goes on to show follow up stock will be free.I don't charge any person who actually shows at NMC events.Mice are collection from shows only,I want my free time to spend on my own animals.I don't really like being harsh but the demands are relentless and there's only so many hours in the day.


----------



## Velvet_Meece

I always advertise my mice at a price, mainly because then only people actually interested will get in touch, not just those taking them because they're free.
I don't charge though to other breeders i know, when other breeders want something off me, its more of a favour to them and i know they'll do the same for me should i ever need anything from them.
If someone just contacts me after some mice and i don't know them, then i will sell them because if i give them away i find that word gets out and i end up getting a load of strangers come to me because they've heard of mice going free.
Generally though, i don't tend to charge, even if i've put a price to them. Its mainly to narrow down interest because if someone wants to pay a few quid each for a mouse then i know they want them.


----------



## love2read

You guys have hit all the nails on their heads!

I got into breeding mice to make ME happy, not other people, and it's not worth it having to go through all of that trouble just to make $5 or, in some cases, to have people back out at the last minute. Grr!

I drove over 20 hours round-trip TWICE to get the mice I wanted because I was serious about wanting to breed quality mice. So, I know that if someone really wants them then they'll be willing to get them.

Also, as much as I hate to admit it, I understand now why certain breeders would rather cull their mice then sell them. *sigh*

If I'm going to a show or something I have no problems bringing mice along to sell, but I'm not going to stress myself taking pictures of tons of babies only to have a small portion of them actually get sold and then me stuck with them for months because it's not convenient for the people to pick them up. :roll:

I hope that no one hates me for cancelling adoptions, but in the end I think it's for the best.


----------



## Rhasputin

So what are you planning on doing with all the babies you have right now, then?


----------



## love2read

I'm going to hang onto the "reserved" ones for a little longer to give them a chance to go to the people who want them. If there are breeders who want the rest and are able to pick them up within the next week then they're up for grabs. Any "leftovers" will be taken to the pet store I work at. My boss has set aside one of the display cages for my surplus mice so they can be sold as pets. I don't get any money for them that way, but at least they won't have to be culled or sold as feeders and I'll have the free room for the mice I'm keeping.

I usually cull my litters down to 6, but from now on I'll be culling them further so I'll have fewer leftover babies.


----------



## Rhasputin

Most breeders see it as much more humane, to cull the animals, than for them to end up in a pet store. 
I whole-heartedly wish you would reconsider your options.

And the reality is, with as many babies as you have right now, it would not be surprising if they were bought for feeders from the store.


----------



## mouselover01

I'd like to discuss having you ship all the mice to me, I'll pay shipping fees, box fees, etc. I've shipped sugar gliders many times so I know all about doing this.

I don't want the mice these breeders worked so hard on to end up in pet stores. I have plenty of caging here to take on all the babies you have, and can bring them to rodent fest for all the people who reserved them.


----------



## mouselover01

Loves2Read:

The nearest airport to me is over 2 hours away. With gliders I have no problems making such a trip and going through the difficulty of shipping because I'm getting paid for my time and effort, but with free mice I don't think I would be up for that...

I would like to talk to the other breeders involved and see if we can make it worth your time and money. Would you be willing to do it if I pay for your gas and time as well as the shipment price?


----------



## love2read

Oh yeah, just an FYI, I will NOT be taking show-mice to the pet store! The only mice going to the pet stores will be from my pet-type lines. I'm working to breed some of my lines towards show-type, such as Frizzy, BEW, and Brindle and that requires me to keep litters at max numbers(6) and growing out the bubs so I can choose the best-typed babies from each generation and sell/cull the rest. I'm not a fan of culling grown mice that would make perfectly good pets and would rather take them to the pet store and give them an opportunity to be pets.

Any show-type mice will be kept by myself or privately given to other breeders. Alot of time and effort has gone into breeding them and I don't want them ending up in a pet shop!

Anyways...I figured I should say that so that there wasn't any panick, lol.


----------



## Rhasputin

It doesn't matter what lines the mice are from, sending a mouse to a pet store, is generally seen as against breeder ethics. 

We are offering you every possible way around this.


----------



## mouselover01

Loves2Read:

The nearest airport to me is over 2 hours away. With gliders I have no problems making such a trip and going through the difficulty of shipping because I'm getting paid for my time and effort, but with free mice I don't think I would be up for that...

I would like to talk to the other breeders involved and see if we can make it worth your time and money. Would you be willing to do it if I pay for your gas and time as well as the shipment price?


----------



## love2read

Rhasputin, they will be sold only as pets. The feeders are in the back of the store and are all PEW standards, while mine will be in the front of the store in a display cage and are marked at a higher price then the feeders.

I've already spoken with my boss about it and any mice that don't see will be taken to a local wildlife rehabber who will humanely euthanize them and pass them along to the woman in charge of caring for the birds.

As I said before, I don't like culling grown mice without reason, so I wanted to give them a chance to be cute pets first before getting PTS. Mice are not difficult to care for and we give care sheets to people when they adopt animals from the store, so I have no problems with them being sold at the store I work at. All of the animals there are well cared for and cages are cleaned twice a week and food/water is checked every morning and evening, even on holidays. It's a large chain pet store, not a dinky little privately-owned one, so they take good care of the animals.

The fact that I'll be there 5 days a week is a plus because that lets me keep tabs on the little ones.

I would be willing to ship the mice, but will be keeping the show-types here to be grown out, so the only mice available would be pet-types. I would like to focus on breeding show mice, not pet-type, so I'll be cutting back on some of my pet-type adults. Flying the mice to you probably wouldn't be worth it on your end, but if you want them and are willing to pay for the shipping/gas/crate(at least $200) and I have the time to get to the airport then you're more then welcome to them. However, they need to go within a week because I don't have room for all the bucks and they're starting to pick on each other.


----------



## Rhasputin

love2read said:


> It's a large chain pet store, not a dinky little privately-owned one, so they take good care of the animals.


Large pet stores aren't really known for their animal care and conditions.

Several people are interested in taking the mice, and finding them homes for you, and keeping them out of the pet store. Please try them before taking your mice into the store.


----------



## mouselover01

*"It's a large chain pet store, not a dinky little privately-owned one, so they take good care of the animals."*

Petco and pet smart are large chain pet stores and some have been known to abuse and neglect their animals.

And there really is no guarantee the people buying them wont just them until they die. If they are interesting colors, coat types, even normal albinos.

I think a lot of us disagree with mice being sold in pet stores, not just Casey and I.

I'm talking to Beth now. Hopefully she can get all the mice and hamsters we reserved from you as well as the other "extras".

*"Flying the mice to you probably wouldn't be worth it on your end"*

I'm not in it for the money, and I don't care about the money. I care about the animals well-being, so, although a frugal investment move, I would be willing to pay that to have the mice and hamsters stay out of the pet store and go to the good breeders who reserved them.

So if Beth isn't able to work something out with you, I'd be interested in taking all the available mice & hamsters you have, including all the ones people reserved as well as any other mice you'd be taking to the pet store. :-D


----------



## Rhasputin

It's also probably not good to let any of the mice carrying hairless, or that are hairless to the pet store. Because if someone buys the mice, and breeds them for fun, they may not have the know-how to care properly for the hairless offspring.

Not only that, but hairless mice outside of the fancy breeding community are looked at as gold mines. People want to mill them and sell them because they know they are rare, and people have offered lots of money for them. I've had to turn down tons of people asking for hairless because I could tell they didn't want them for fun or for the joy of having the mice and breeding them, but they knew they could make a quick buck on them, and just wanted to breed the crap out of them and sell them for profit, without much regard for the mouse itself.


----------



## tinyhartmouseries

I hope this works out. It sounds like you are in a position to hand select adoptors 5 days out of the week, so it's a bit better, in my eyes, than most selling-to-pet-store situations. BUT, is there any way they will let you just advertise in their store, and you can field calls and do adoptions from home? It is still pretty risky, you may still get the undereducated masses coming in on the days you have off, or the especially evil people who want to feed a "pretty" mouse to their reptile.

Either way, I hope this works out, and I can take care of picking up any midwestern adoptor's mice, providing someone can get them to Rodentfest.

I think it's also a very personal decision that no one can fault you for, that is, the decision not to go because of money. We don't all have it all the time, and I know for me, these East Coast trips might end up only being every other year, I don't know yet.


----------



## Laigaie

I've never heard of a herp feeder who chooses to feed "pretty mice" that are more expensive than the feeder mice. Quality is important in terms of health and size, but color actually turns off most herp owners, who try not to think about the mice as more than food. Those frat boys who delight in feeding the vicious snake his food usually still buy the cheapest mouse available.

Also, while some may feel it's better to cull than to send to a pet store, I really don't appreciate the hounding that the OP has received. You've said your piece, and you're trying to take them off her hands, but at a great expense of her time, and while repeatedly decrying her methods. She works at this store. I don't know about y'all, but when I work somewhere, I take pride in the services we offer better than anyone else. Maybe we make the best hand-crafted traditional-style macchiato. Maybe we cater to the car care customers who have the best understanding of their cars' needs. Maybe her pet store has the best-educated and most fantastic customers, who she knows by name and face. We don't know. That's why it's up to her to make these decisions.


----------



## mouselover01

She's worked there only a couple weeks, from what I gather... *shrug*

We're trying to help her keep the mice within the fancy. 
There are people who are good breeders and keepers who want them. There is no reason for them to go to a pet store when there are suitable homes that are trying everything they can and pay what they can, to make it worth getting to us 

We aren't condemning her for being overwhelmed, we're trying to help get the mice into good homes and keep them out of a pet shop and out of the hands of people with bad intentions


----------



## Stina

I don't know about anyone else....but if I will never rehome any animals to a person I know will give animals to a pet store....especially a chain store. Regardless of how animals are cared for in a store...and why people are buying them...I worked in chain pet stores for about 3 years and honestly...people are f*ing stupid...you can NOT screen people in a pet store properly to have ANY idea how they will take care of an animal and I couldn't even tell you how many people I had buy animals that seemed like they might be ok ended up returning the animals or returning to the store not too long afterwards to say they got rid of them or they died... The simple truth is that animals in a pet store are more likely to find a BAD home, then a good one.....a few might end up in good homes...but most won't. The rehab center would be a MUCH more humane option overall for excess animals.


----------



## Rhasputin

I agree with Stina, which is why I am working to try an get these mice out of this situation, which helps out the owner, the mice, and the adopters.


----------



## love2read

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I think it's also a very personal decision that no one can fault you for, that is, the decision not to go because of money. We don't all have it all the time, and I know for me, these East Coast trips might end up only being every other year, I don't know yet.





Laigaie said:


> Also, while some may feel it's better to cull than to send to a pet store, I really don't appreciate the hounding that the OP has received. You've said your piece, and you're trying to take them off her hands, but at a great expense of her time, and while repeatedly decrying her methods. She works at this store. I don't know about y'all, but when I work somewhere, I take pride in the services we offer better than anyone else. Maybe we make the best hand-crafted traditional-style macchiato. Maybe we cater to the car care customers who have the best understanding of their cars' needs. Maybe her pet store has the best-educated and most fantastic customers, who she knows by name and face. We don't know. That's why it's up to her to make these decisions.


Thank you Laigaie and Tinyhart, I appreciate your understanding of my situation.

I worked at the pet store for well over a year and was in a management position at the time that I left(when I moved to North Carolina to help out my mother). Had I stayed I would now be the assistant manager, but I decided to move and help out my mother instead. However, I've been told from multiple people that they're still considering me for assistant manager because the current guy isn't working out very well.

I will not only be there 5-6 days a week, but my mice will be sold for nearly twice the amount of feeders. The feeders are all PEW standards as well, which, as Laigaie pointed out, is more to the liking of snake/herp owners.

Today I brought a few of my "culls" with me as a trial run and I was able to personally sell 2 babies together as pets to a very sweet woman who was eager to listen to any and all advice I gave her on their care. She even seemed interested in possibly getting a couple more in the future should I decide to bring more to the store later on.

Because the store is a chain store and not privately owned, it requires it to follow certain guidelines and to keep the store up to standards, which means that cages are kept as spotless as possible at all times. In addition, all small animals are given wheels and toys(my boss lets us pull different goodies off the shelves for them to keep em happy) and there's always a stash of treats hidden away so the staff can spoil them rotten! The food they receive is the best we carry and their water bottles are always kept full and food and water is checked twice daily to ensure they're always full. The animals want for nothing.

Even feeders are spoiled with wheels and we make them toys with boxes and tunnels and they get all kinds of goodies. Before I came along they weren't well cared for, I'll admit, but I changed the way things were run when I became a stocker there and before I left I wrote up an entire how-to page, which they then taped up on the wall for future stockers to follow, lol. Thankfully, it looks like they've done a great job at keeping everything up to par. 

Anyways...

I would much rather these mice go to breeders, but I have neither the time nor money to do so since I decided not to go to the PA show. I feel awful about having to cancel the adoptions, but I cannot afford to care for so many mice until April and even if I could I do not have the space for so many. I honestly didn't think about that at the time, I will admit. I'm used to having a ton of room for my animals, but we're staying with friends and they were kind enough to allow me to bring all of my mice and I do not wish to impose further by asking for the space to DOUBLE my numbers!

I have no desire to stop breeding my mice, so when forced to decide between keeping all of the babies until April or making room to breed better mice I chose the latter.

I think what saddens me the most about all of this is how if I'd lied and said that I would cull of my the mice then you all would have no problems with it and would pat me on the back and say it was a job well done...yet when I want to go through the time and effort to try and find pet homes for as many as I can before culling any then you guys treat me like I have the plague and am an awful breeder!

My "reputation" this forum dropped by half in a matter of hours and on another forum I got multiple "stinky cheese" votes(it's kinda the same as the rep thing).

Maybe next time I should just lie and say I killed them all. Sorry for being honest. Yeesh!


----------



## WoodWitch

Love2read, you do not have to explain yourself to anyone. 
This thread will be locked if hounding continues. I suggest that, unless the OP would like any further advice, this thread is left alone.


----------



## SarahY

> I have no desire to stop breeding my mice, so when forced to decide between keeping all of the babies until April or making room to breed better mice I chose the latter.


I would do the same. There is nothing worse than having mice sat there for months waiting for their new homes. Especially when, like me, you're pressed for space. It disrupts your own plans, and nothing should do that - this is your hobby!


----------



## WillowDragon

Two of my very good friends own pet shops, they breed there own stock for thier shops and take pride in the health and tractability of thier stock.

I would have no issue at all providing mice for thier shops, or giving them stock to breed from for thier shops. I am well aware that you cannot screen owners of the animals... And frankly you can't really do that if you pet home from your own stud either, but I would rather that thier shops have good healthy stock than mass produced warehouse rubbish animals, the way I see it... I provide mice to these lovely private owned pet shops, and it takes away profit from the horrible warehouse breeders.


----------



## mouselover01

Aside from me offering to pay to have these animals shipped to me, including paying for your time, your gas, and all shipping charges Beth also said she'd be contacting you to help get the mice to us.

Can you please update me on what's going on 

Thanks


----------



## candycorn

Laigaie said:


> I've never heard of a herp feeder who chooses to feed "pretty mice" that are more expensive than the feeder mice. Quality is important in terms of health and size, but color actually turns off most herp owners, who try not to think about the mice as more than food.


Nothing against love2read...but I had to add a comment on this quote. Herp breeder/owners do actually feed "pretty mice". Some snakes such as ball pythons are sometimes very finicky and will only eat colored mice. I have an albino ball python who as a baby would only eat very dark mice. I found a F/T seller who could get me black mice frozen...but often live feeders will look for pet type mice instead of the standard PEWs. Even as an adult she definatly has a preference for marked or dark rats. 
Other herp keepers breed their own feeders and look for fun colors and patterns, even coat types to make it more interesting for them. 
So selling mice slightly more expensive does not actually prevent all idiot from using them as feeders. 
This is why I personally could never sell to a pet store either. I feel very responsible for my babies and I want to know where they go. I am not against feeding live if you must, but I would not knowingly put my mice in that situation.


----------



## Rhasputin

love2read said:


> I would much rather these mice go to breeders, but I have neither the time nor money to do so since I decided not to go to the PA show. I feel awful about having to cancel the adoptions, but I cannot afford to care for so many mice until April and even if I could I do not have the space for so many. I honestly didn't think about that at the time, I will admit. I'm used to having a ton of room for my animals, but we're staying with friends and they were kind enough to allow me to bring all of my mice and I do not wish to impose further by asking for the space to DOUBLE my numbers!


We've offered to cover all the expenses to relieve you of these animals, what more can we do?


----------



## Rhasputin

WillowDragon said:


> Two of my very good friends own pet shops, they breed there own stock for thier shops and take pride in the health and tractability of thier stock.
> 
> I would have no issue at all providing mice for thier shops, or giving them stock to breed from for thier shops. I am well aware that you cannot screen owners of the animals... And frankly you can't really do that if you pet home from your own stud either, but I would rather that thier shops have good healthy stock than mass produced warehouse rubbish animals, the way I see it... I provide mice to these lovely private owned pet shops, and it takes away profit from the horrible warehouse breeders.


I wish it worked the same way here. Even if I ofered to provide a pet shop with the best mice available to man kind, they have regulations and contracts that require them (the larger chains, that is) to purchase animals from mill breeders that usually just mill all the species they carry with little reguard to health. All of the people I've known that work in chain pet shops in the US have told me nothing but horror stories. Opening boxes of new animals and throwing out the half that are dead, not caring for the ones that are sick, selling sick animals and promising they aren't. 
It's the money they're interested, not the quality. 
As much as I'd love to work in a pet shop, I'd be fired for telling many customers that I don't think they're ready to own certain animals. Or that a chinchilla doesn't make a good pet for a 2 year old, and I wouldn't check them out with it.

Pet stores in the US will almost never tell you no, when you want to buy an animal. They say that you need someone who is 18 with you to purchase a pet, but that's a stretch too. A teenager can easily purchase a pet without being asked for their ID. If you wanted to buy every animal in the store, and keep them in one cage, they wouldn't stop you from buying them.

It's a crying shame. :|


----------



## tinyhartmouseries

Yes, when I worked at Petsmart, my bosses told me to say no if I believed selling it would be detrimental for the animal, but to be ready to be fired for it. Kinda bass-akwards.... :|


----------



## Shadowrunner

That's why when I buy any mice from pet stores i often buy twice as many as I need. Because half of them die before the week is out. They say they'll give you a replacement if you bring in the body for larger chains...but what's the point? I still treat them with the due respect, versus an employee who shrugs and dumps it in a trash bin.
There are plenty of teens willing and able to take care of pets...however there seems to be a trend here in Baltimore.

Teens are setting animals on fire more and more. First it was pittbulls. Then it was stray cats. Last year I found a shoe-box full of charred rodents. Rats, mice hamsters and something that resembled a squirrel.

I sold one of my finches as a pet to someone I knew who worked at a pet store, 
confidant she would be a great home for him.
I learned later that she decided it didn't match her new couch and she traded it for a turtle.

I'm just asking this because it seems like a pretty reasonable thing to ask. 
What would be wrong with just humanely culling the extras and donating them to a wildlife center? It would save you a lot of stress.


----------



## Laigaie

Because she prefers to find pet homes if possible. This has already been said.


----------



## Rhasputin

Any update about where the mice ended up?


----------

