# Breeding mice (split from Champagnes)



## Vivian (Apr 17, 2009)

so ive bee ready, a freind has translate for me *uff*

I´ve been asking myself, what you all do with the male

I think that to keep them alone is cruelty to the animals, and keeping them in groups doesn´t work out good in the long run. Thats why I don´t make any illusion, the bucks are taken away with 3 to 5 days if there is no interest from other breeders for a breeding buck....in this way there is more milk for the females, and because they don´t have to fight for milk, they grow bigger and stronger..
The mother is relieved, that she only has to raise 4 babies instead of 10, in this way she can have maybe an other litter, and has more strenghs to raise them..

She isn´t so haggard and more relaxed.
The Bucks are being fed as pinkies, but properly pre killed, so they don´t get eaten alive....Pinkies can hold up to 20min there breath, and it happened that you could still hear them squeeking inside the snake. Something that is unimaginable for me and thats why it is cruel to freeze Pinkies too, because they take long to freeze to death.

When you breed for shows, you have to select or you might never get near your breeding goal.
What to do with these selected animals is something leaved to the breeder, me for myself, I rather sell the females as pets or keep them myself, than to use them as food for the snakes.

What I would NEVER do is to sell my with love raised mice to a pet shop. Who knows where they would end up then?
That is someting I can´t face a charge for and people who do it are just tring to get out of the responsability of the animal, the responsability to find a good home for the animal!
I carry the responsability for the animal, and it leaves me, they go as Snake food (like 90% of my mice), and than only to people I know, and know that they really feed them to snakes and not somebody who tries to breed with them without knowledge, or to privat persons as pets, where I can control were they are suppose to live (like telefon with them, and let them send me pictures of there cages). In other cases I give them away to other breeders, but only if I think the animals are good for breeding and only to breeders who keep them in roomy cages like me, and who keep and breed them under the same conditions like me.

As breeder you have much more responability, than a pet owner who just had accidentally a litter....to explain to people how to keep the mice correct, working together with snake keepers, that a pet shop mouse for just 0,15 Euro can´t be a well balanced fed and healthy mouse and so on. A breeder has a wide spread dutyand to sell them to a petshop, because I could´nt be consistent enough to feed them to a snake or sell them as snake food, is not acceptable to me.

For that I would see my babies sitting in animal shelters, with 2-3 litters, because a child was overextended because she got are pair of mice being sold to her in a pet shop. Besides that the bucks are being held and sold as snake food!

To be a breeder means o be consistent. When I see the trend goes to like taht when 100 mouse being sold in a pet shop, only 3 might have the luck to get a good and species-appropriate home, is the alternative for that to feed them rather to snakes.

Better a quick and easy death in my hands than a long and painfull life (death) of a stranger.
It is my liability as a breeder.

Greetings, viv


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Its good that you have thought about your goals and limits in breeding your mice. I cull males as you say unless I plan to breed from them, sometimes I end up with a few which arent as good as they looked at first or are made surplus by a better buck being born or developing. I do use freezing as a method and I have heard people saying it can take up to 20 minutes but I find it takes only a few moments, especially if the pinkie is very young (under 3 days). If I found it wasn't as effective then I would seek another method.

I do sell some of my surplus to my local pet shop, only after trying to sell them among the mouse fancy. The shop only takes females I'm afraid and the bucks often end up being culled and used as snake food by a friend of mine. I find the money from selling to the pet shop really useful and some months it pays for food and new tanks or new stock if I'm lucky. The other mice at the pet shop are often in awful condition and generally ill so I think that if someone is going to buy from a pet shop they may as well buy a healthy mouse like mine.


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## Vivian (Apr 17, 2009)

sure your mice will be healthy, so i dont understand that you can give them to tne pet shop.

the peaples how buy in the shop will get YOUR painfull breeding mice, and think, that the pet shop are a good adress for buying mices..

if no more fancy breeders will do that, the peaple will see that the pet shop isn't so good and the breeders are more respected.

i hope you understand..

the peaple buy your mice and get one how were verry nice and healthy, why shold them by by a breeder, how arsk them qwestions, and look for a good home!

shure the mony you get from the shop aren't dirty, but you sell your mice under there price i think... so many time by looking for an good buck or does .. feeding good food, paling the births and and and..

i think your mice are verry good looking and they are better than pet shopmices.

lg viv


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

I know what your saying, it would be ideal to be able to sell all of my mice to people who come to the house and I am able to talk to and give advice. Unfortunately it just isn't possible to reach that many people looking to buy mice. I try to find homes through various forums and over the internet but there are always surplus even when I have reduced numbers as pinkies.

Even though I sell my mice much cheaper than the pet shop do I think some people are reluctant to buy animals directly form breeders and prefer to go to a pet shop as they consider pet shops to be more reliable, even though that is wrong!


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## Angelmouse (Oct 3, 2008)

My first 2 litters went to the pet shop, I did not cull these litters and it took months for the bucks to go, they suddenly vanished! Anyway since then I have had no need to take any of my mice to the pet shop as I have sold mine through advertising/own website, I have not had any that have not sold (but I have culled the bucks back as pinkies on day one), I'm a hobby breeder and will keep the ones I feel are pretty. I feel very lucky that my mice sell relatively quickly. you will find here that pet shops wont take mice that are older than maybe max 8wks but wont take any that are younger than 6wks so it is quite a short window of opportunity to send your mice into the petshop anyway, so if someone lets you down you are stuck with a mouse. Also I take a non-refundable reservation fee of £1 per mouse, from people I dont know i.e. people who see an advert or visit my website  If my mice didnt sell and I had time to take them to the pet shop before they got to old then I would take them, if I didnt I'd be over run with mice and my hubby would be not too pleased with me :lol:


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

My rumpwhites are generally easier to find homes for, the blues have a bit of interest but the self blacks are just not desired, even though they are probably the best in terms of the show standards.

I went to the pet shop today and they had a load of brokens which will probably go in no time...I have a load of black tans which I'm going to send to them in a months time I bet they will be there for a while.

What sites do you use to advertise your mice. I use preloved and sometimes have a little message on some forums including those which aren't aimed just at mouse or rat people. I very rarely get any replies.


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## Sputnik (Mar 28, 2009)

This is where I have lucked out  I work in a very nice, clean pet store that is run by my friend and her husband. All of our animals are well taken care of and come from great breeders. I sell many of my mice through the store, and since I work there, I get to properly educate their new owners, and make sure they will live happy lives. This also means that everyone around here who wants mice can get properly bred and healthy mice.


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

I have tried finding contacts with regards to petshops, but with no luck, either they are stopping selling rodents or they have enough suppliers already...

I have a website and i advertise on other forums and classifieds sites.

However if mice do not find a home after 1 month from leaving mother, then i'm afraid they are culled  i wish i didn't have to do it, but theres just nowhere round here that will take them on, i usually keep the nicer ones back a little longer as sometimes interest will eventually come along...

I cull via co2 gas which i feel is the best way possible, well i wouldn't do it any other way thats for sure! but i would really like them to go to new home alive :|

I'm finding a lot of interest at the moment is mostly in BEW's and PEW satins, though still much harder placing males...


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## Vivian (Apr 17, 2009)

i dont like co2 gas, because the pets getting afrait and the get no more air to breath.and the know that..so they fight for there life!

if you have to do that, you must do it right... it means for us realy softer to fal in sleep, but the gas make the same feeling for the mices like water !!! they choke on it an feel this to!

but if you break the nack, the getting dead fast and dont feal the hurts, if you make it write! 
its much human i think...

lg viv


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## Peteyandthegang (Jan 20, 2009)

I think the idea is to release the gas incredibly slowly. The mice dont choke, they just flop and fall asleep. At least thats what happened with us, although weve only done this twice so far. Still there was clearly no suffering and we will do it again when the time comes


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

My mice and rats seem to just flop over as well. One elderly rat doe I had gave a massive yawn, stretched and then just flopped on to her side and stopped breathing after a while. I release the gas very very slowly and they don't seem to notice.

I would do it a more physical way because it's so quick, but I'd feel terrible if I got it wrong and caused suffering. Got no problem with culling stock or shooting pheasants for my dinner, but I can't stand to see animals in pain.

Sarah xxx


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## Velvet_Meece (Apr 20, 2009)

Yes, the only problem i had is when i had to gas gerbils, as they are generally nervous and did panic a little, but when they started to panic they were unconcious about 20 seconds later.

rats and mice tend to get tired and probably light headed, they usually lie down to sleep and then drift off.

Co2 gives the impression of suffocating, Argon is closer to drowning which is probably the better option, but i use a mix 60% co2 - 40% argon, its seems to work better than anything.

my OH used to have to break the necks before we started using gas, but it wasn't nice and yes there was occasions when the rodent would shift and he'd get it wrong, and its extrmely distressing to watch, he couldn't do it anymore and thats when we decided to invest in gas, haven't looked back since and wouldn't!


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