# Himalayan, Dutch and Abyssinian at Blackthorn Stud



## SarahY

Took lots of pictures today of all my varieties:

Dutch (mostly four week old babies with their mum and some older does, including two chocolate does from Madhouse Stud):














































Himalayans:
































































Abyssinians:














































Sarah xxx


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## HemlockStud

I really wish we had dutch in this country, so beautiful! Youre doing a great job with them Sarah, I really enjoy looking at the photos you post of them.  And oh my, those abysisinian want to hop across the pond and come live with me! :mrgreen:


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## SarahY

Thank you very much  And you do have Dutch! It's only normal, bog standard recessive spotting, just needs a fair bit of selective breeding. The coloured rump is easy, most piebald types have that, then you've only got to breed for two cheek patches and a white upper body.

Sarah xxx


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## HemlockStud

Hmm, well Ive never seen anyone be able to breed a dutch out of brokens over here! Although Im in my crazy world of thinking that dutch and irish spotting are both on the s-locus but just modified version of the gene. Like s^du/* would be dutch and s^si/* would be irish spotting. What do you think? I just know every time dutch have been imported into the US they always die and the litters fail to thrive.

(Yes, I made up my own symbols for dutch and irsh. :lol: )


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## SarahY

I thought that Dutch might be modified spotting too but no, I've test bred it with normal recessive spotted pet shop patchy mice. I've never heard of Irish spotting.

I don't want to sound rude (because I really don't mean to be) but I've never seen pictures of any mice that have actually been 'improved' in America (ETA: except for NuedaiMice's blacks, they look better every time). Up until recently I think a general lack of consistancy and discipline in breeding American mice has prevailed and as a result breeders have got nowhere. The best mice have been imported from us. I do think that is changing though now that there are more people interested in doing it properly, and I expect a lot of improvement in the future.

I'm not saying that trying to breed Dutch out of recessive spotted piebalds will be easy or quick, just that you_ can _do it 

Sarah xxx


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## WoodWitch

Lookin' good, Sarah :clap :clap :clap


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## HemlockStud

SarahY said:


> I thought that Dutch might be modified spotting too but no, I've test bred it with normal recessive spotted pet shop patchy mice. I've never heard of Irish spotting.
> 
> I don't want to sound rude (because I really don't mean to be) but I've never seen pictures of any mice that have actually been 'improved' in America (ETA: except for NuedaiMice's blacks, they look better every time). Up until recently I think a general lack of consistancy and discipline in breeding American mice has prevailed and as a result breeders have got nowhere. The best mice have been imported from us. I do think that is changing though now that there are more people interested in doing it properly, and I expect a lot of improvement in the future.
> 
> I'm not saying that trying to breed Dutch out of recessive spotted piebalds will be easy or quick, just that you_ can _do it
> 
> Sarah xxx


Irish spotting at least over here is usually a mouse that has a head spot/blaze, a belly spot, and a marked tail. So sort of similar to your herefords over there and I think it is the same gene or k-factors making the markings. Irish spotting isnt really standardized here though, its just a nuisance in anyone breeding brokens.

I can whole heartedly agree on the fact that mice are rarely improved over here! There are very few show breeders and we are far spread. I am currently breeding creams, PEWs, and champagne(all one line) and I originally only was able to get show bucks and so had to outcross to pet type does. Now three generations down the line of inbreeding back I am getting very close to regaining full type but it has been hard work. A good learning experience overall though. I would like to get a hold of and improve hairless and sex linked brindles(in red or fawn) to show type, but those are far off goals and I still need to get the genes. It is definitely a struggle breeding nice mice over here, and it is still largely a pet based hobby but myself and others would like to try and change that in the coming years.


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## SarahY

Thank you tratallen :love1



> Irish spotting at least over here is usually a mouse that has a head spot/blaze, a belly spot, and a marked tail.


I think a head spot is one of the nicest markings.

I'm glad I didn't offend you HemlockStud. I'm sure you and others as dedicated and sensible will make good things happen for the American mouse fancy in the future.

Sarah xxx


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## HemlockStud

> I'm glad I didn't offend you HemlockStud. I'm sure you and others as dedicated and sensible will make good things happen for the American mouse fancy in the future.


I really do need to get some current pictures of my mice and see what all of you over there think of my mice. As part of me still feels like Im in the dark on selecting for the right traits of a proper show mouse! :roll:


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## moustress

I'm pretty sure one could derive Dutch from mousies with markings patterns that approach Dutch. It probably takes a long time (a decade or more) and lots of litters to pick from to perfect the markings. I've had meeces who have color in the right places, just not the right coverage.

I notice that Sarah has quite a lot of slight differences in her litters. The exact coverage probably occurs in about one out a a hundred...Sarah? You'd know, I'm sure, and you've had quite a number of litters, haven't you?

The abbys are very ruffley; you must be pleased with that. Your Himalayans are dreamy.


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## SarahY

I've had loads of litters really, I've been breeding them like mad :lol: There's loads of rubbish ones, of which I haven't taken pictures. Dutch with completely coloured heads or spots all over their bodies or only one eyepatch, that kind of thing. If you breed two good ones together you'll still rubbish ones in the litter. I'll take some pictures in the next couple of days so you can see the variation in the markings.

Thank you moustress, I'm very pleased with the Abyssinians' progress.

Sarah xxx


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## nuedaimice

Thank you, Sarah for your compliment on my blacks.

I would like to point out that even those of us making large improvements are using some UK influenced lines.

Even my own lines have UK influence in them. There is hardly a single U.S. breeder who does not have stock that traces back to a UK imported line at some point. Its just the degree to which the line has been out crossed to pet store stock and the degree of selection to bring back the type from those UK lines that breeders use. None of my blacks are related to UK descended blacks, to my knowledge, but they do have lineage somewhere in their past (probably 20 or more generations back) where someone crossed the ocean.

I am probably the only one who has the least amount of UK derived stock in the U.S. Hemlock has sent me some of his mice recently, so I will be crossing them into some of my lines. But I am keeping them clear of my blacks for now, as those particular lines have a lot of light modifiers - not something I want to breed into darker mice.

I am trying for Dutch in a separate line... but Broken is holding my interest more. I do have a LOT of "almost Dutch" mice. Helmets and butt spots...


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## moustress

I knew there had to a Brit-mus in the woodpile a ways back when I saw those PEW's I got from you, ndm!!


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## Cait

A few years ago I exported a crate of mice to the US and dutch were included...


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## Matt Haslam

MouseBreeder said:


> A few years ago I exported a crate of mice to the US and dutch were included...


what happened to them?


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## Cait

I don't know, I haven't heard from the breeders for a while now. There were a lot of varieties that went over - I was just wondering how they were doing the other day, I'll have to try and get an update.


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## nuedaimice

The breeders that imported those were Kelli and Jennifer, right?

Jennifer has made some life changes and is not active with the fancy. And Kelli is still breeding currently but has some health issues that make her no longer very active in the fancy and she doesn't communicate with us much anymore.

The dutch are gone regardless, they were unsuccessful in getting them to breed. Most of the other varieties do still exist, they are just not available to anyone.


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## moustress

Too bad. It must be a bit disappointing to send stock out and then see it wasted one way or the other. I didn't understand when I first started on this Forum, but I get it now.

Still, if the breeder didn't need those that he sent off, there no net loss in the material sense...I'm still on the fence, a bit, I guess.


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## WillowDragon

Thats why you should be willing to share stock, especially of a rare variety... less chance of you losing it.


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## tinyhartmouseries

That second Himi is absolutely amazing, I love the slight creamyness of it...also everything else is awesome!


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## SarahY

LOL It's the flash that's made him creamy, hes actually white. My Abyssinians didn't turn out very white either :lol: Thank you x

Sarah xxx


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## tinyhartmouseries

:lol: Sorry! I really do think it's a lovely mouse and picture.


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## moustress

Not to share your stock when you have surplus is pretty pathological.


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## HemlockStud

WillowDragon said:


> Thats why you should be willing to share stock, especially of a rare variety... less chance of you losing it.


I agree with this, in the US at least a lot of people that import mice from overseas keep the mice to "work on the lines" and dont spread them to anyone or only one other person. In a way this can be smart but if something were to happen killing off all your stock, all the money put into importing would of been wasted! :roll:


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## Cait

I can see this one from both sides. If someone has spent a fortune importing then they will want to get a stable population before considering letting other breeders have any mice. But equally yes it is good to have other people with those varieties to make sure the gene isn't lost, and that there's some competition when showing! You can't make a variety popular if only a few people keep it.


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## nuedaimice

For the Dutch, I believe it was the original trio that they were unsuccessful in breeding, so there was never any excess stock to disperse.

Jennifer and Kelli did disperse to some breeders that they trusted. Unfortunately, there are some breeders here who only want certain varieties so they can control the "market" and make lots of money off of them. This particular breeder is your best friend until they get what they want then they are done with you and they try to run you out of mice altogether. Its happened to almost every fancier who got mice out of that shipment. And its my understanding that this person is now keeping all of the new lines from the newest English shipment. In fact, that was one of the only reasons that shipment was done. To obtain the colors that were shipped in before that everyone wants and to be able to control whose butt you have to kiss to get them. Some of us aren't kissing any butts, I don't care what colors they have. And we're the ones that get "shunned".

I've actually had multiple people come back and tell me that a breeder told them that if they wanted mice from them they weren't allowed to even talk to me.

Thats what I get for winning Best In Show a million years ago, I guess.


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## Cait

Well, over here we are obviously not involved in US disputes and will ship to those who are doing it 'for the fancy', so just ask us! One of my reasons for getting involved was to help mouse breeding as a whole, and I think that as long as the mice are going to someone who will look after them, breed them and work to improve what they have that not many people would have an objection to sending mice.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Mousebreeder, that's wonderful of you to say. Us Americans are so darn dramatic, makes me think I was supposed to be born across the pond, I hate it so much!


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## m137b

HemlockStud said:


> I really wish we had dutch in this country, so beautiful!


Agreed , they're just so striking in about any species but I love looking at the pics of your dutch mice.

I love that one in the middle of the 3rd pic.

I think some americans are too focused on others 'messing up' the animals they sell, by not continuing to breed them in a mannor they deem fit. Kind sad that they'd rather cull them than take the chance.


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## nuedaimice

> I think some americans are too focused on others 'messing up' the animals they sell, by not continuing to breed them in a mannor they deem fit. Kind sad that they'd rather cull them than take the chance.


Its actually the opposite. They only want to sell to the people that they think WILL mess them up so they don't have any competition.

I, personally, can select for type and have proven it many times. So I'm denied show mice by anyone that sees me as a threat. I start with crap and turn it into something better, its slow going, but it gets there slowly. Luckily, they don't have control of all the show mice, so look out world, I'm back in the game now! (Thanks, Steven!)

MouseBreeder, I may very well look into a shipment from overseas soon. I have the best method of dispersing the mice throughout the entire U.S. for free (via my Matt), so it will make those varieties very easily accessible to anyone that wants them. And a couple of us have talked about doing a shipment at some point. Now that the slow training season is over (its puppy season right now) and I have spare cash, then I am going to start saving up for some colors that I'd like to get. Then we can get them dispersed throughout the U.S. properly, once and for all.

Maybe Americans are too dramatic...


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## Seawatch Stud

I sent a load of mice over in the shipment Cait mentioned. I sent blacks and chins for sure, possibly others (I don't remember exactly) and I've no idea what became of them. I think Jack had chins derived from mine, but that aside I just don't know.


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## WillowDragon

> They only want to sell to the people that they think WILL mess them up so they don't have any competition.


Ack! But that is so wrong!!

Competition is essential, otherwise you are just competeing against yourself, so how do you know if you are any good??? I have so many first place cards from shows that might aswell be post it notes, because I won those by default as the section i was showing in was empty... there is nothing more frustrating!


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## icedmice

WillowDragon said:


> They only want to sell to the people that they think WILL mess them up so they don't have any competition.
> 
> 
> 
> Ack! But that is so wrong!!
> 
> Competition is essential, otherwise you are just competeing against yourself, so how do you know if you are any good??? I have so many first place cards from shows that might aswell be post it notes, because I won those by default as the section i was showing in was empty... there is nothing more frustrating!
Click to expand...

That sounds familiar!
I have many mice that have earned places due to lack of competition. Not to mention different judges seek different "qualities" so consistancy in judging is also compromised. I'm not arguing with the judges desicion but sometimes the outcomes really puzzle me.
That's why I went looking for international exhibition breeders so I can get a clearer picture on what to look for and how to select for it  .

People being selfish with stock also sounds familiar, even though there is no need because almost no Australian mice are pure. I'm probably one of the few developing pure lines, and will probably be frowned upon too because inbreeding in any form over several generations is evil  .

Australians can be equally as dramatic. Mouse people are an interesting bunch  .


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## nuedaimice

> Ack! But that is so wrong!!
> 
> Competition is essential, otherwise you are just competeing against yourself, so how do you know if you are any good??? I have so many first place cards from shows that might aswell be post it notes, because I won those by default as the section i was showing in was empty... there is nothing more frustrating!


And now you understand my frustration with some U.S. breeders who refuse to sell to anyone who can do anything with them and claim they have the best mice because theirs are the only real competition at the show. LOL. Not that they show very often anyway, but still claim they are the end all, be all of mice. Honestly, some of them do not even have a real eye for selection and are just breeding nice mouse to nice mouse to create semi-nice (but still better than everyone else's) mice. And people wonder why they have to get new outside stock all the time, because they can't hold the type in their own lines as well as they claim.

That really IS what it is like here with some breeders.

I'd just rather say, "Hey, I have crap, but if its better than what you have now, I'll share it with you."


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## m137b

nuedaimice said:


> I'd just rather say, "Hey, I have crap, but if its better than what you have now, I'll share it with you."


LOL, well said.

Competition keeps you honest...if you never get beaten you will never see where you stock fails and needs improvement


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## Seawatch Stud

It has to be pointed out on this thread, that most fanciers in the U.K are very generous in terms of supplying top quality stock to newcomers. Many newbies have won top honours from their 1st litters of stock. I think we should be proud of that.


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## WillowDragon

Seawatch Stud said:


> It has to be pointed out on this thread, that most fanciers in the U.K are very generous in terms of supplying top quality stock to newcomers. Many newbies have won top honours from their 1st litters of stock. I think we should be proud of that.


I agree it is something to be proud of. hehehe I remember the first time I met Heather, she dared me to beat her at a show. *sighs* Maybe one day.


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## moustress

It is, I think, part of the national character, here in the US, to be somewhat confrontational and argumentative...just think of how we started, after all. The image comes to mind of the redcoats lined up while snipers picked them off from behind rocks and trees.


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## Seawatch Stud

You guys were lucky our hearts were not really in it. Not one of the "colonials" including Washington, Adams, Franklin or Jefferson wanted independence at the start. They just didn't want "taxation without representation". So watch out we may be back. After all it is getting pretty crowded over here!


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## Seawatch Stud

Very slightly off topic, but hey, who cares?


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## nuedaimice

Hey, but thats still the truth of it today, Seawatch. Most Americans don't have a passion or the heart for the hobby. Its the same as the war, just don't mess with our money! LOL.

The U.K. is notorious for its extreme passion and dedication for animals and fellow animal hobbyists. The U.S. is a melting pot of greedy backyard breeders who care nothing for the animals they produce to the extreme lover of animals who gets in your face every five minutes if your cat or dog is not spayed and neutered.

Of course, I also like to think that we Americans are too dramatic and take things too personally (and some of our breeders are younger and, basically, spoiled rotten brats who need a good smacking), and that the British have no emotions. KIDDING! (Hopefully, they have a sense of humor... Otherwise I might be in trouble)...


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## Stina

Wow....this thread has become extraordinarily hostile.....


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## Seawatch Stud

Stina said:


> Wow....this thread has become extraordinarily hostile.....


Oh lighten up! :roll:


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## SarahY

> Of course, I also like to think that we Americans are too dramatic and take things too personally (and some of our breeders are younger and, basically, spoiled rotten brats who need a good smacking), and that the British have no emotions.


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## GypsyTails

Beautiful Sarah!!!!!

I hopped over to see what the rest of the world was doing and got a good laugh in addition to seeing your lovely mice.

I don't see too many Americans having the patience for the marked varieties. It's "now, now, now"! Heck, we are the Fast Food Nation after all!

But really, your Dutch are beautiful! 

P.S. Who's being hostile? I'm laughing my butt off over here! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## WillowDragon

We are borg, emotions are irrelevent, we only seek to attain perfection in our mice.


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## m137b

GypsyTails said:


> P.S. Who's being hostile? I'm laughing my butt off over here! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Exactly, gotta have a good laugh every once in a while, and this is the place for it. :lol: :lol:


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## WillowDragon

Well I can see a good star trek joke is just lost on you lot!! *flounces off*


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## moustress

It had more to do with types of strategy than heart, I think. The Brits were using 15th century strategy instead of changing it to suit the use of rifles in the 16th.

Way, way off topic.


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## m137b

Star Trek????? Was that on the assigned reading list?


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## Seawatch Stud

It wasn't lost on me Katie coz I've been assimilated! I know resistance is futile!! What about 7 of 9 then eh? Phoaaarrrrrr!!! :twisted:


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## WillowDragon

I think my girlfriend would agree with you there Phil!


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## moustress

Fascinating...


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## Seawatch Stud

My god Jim, I'm a doctor, not a pool man!


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## nuedaimice

> Wow....this thread has become extraordinarily hostile.....


See? My point exactly. Over dramatic and take things too personally. :lol: I don't think this thread is hostile... now maybe if we were discussing the public execution of fellow fanciers... but that hasn't happened here. :roll:

You know, I knew the president of the LSCRMC was a trekkie... I didn't realize it was the norm for UK fanciers. LOL.


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## Seawatch Stud

I'm not sure the word "normal" is necessarily the best choice to describe mouse fanciers anywhere in the world. It would be more accurate if you were to attatch "ab" or "sub" to the front! :lol:


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## nuedaimice

> I'm not sure the word "normal" is necessarily the best choice to describe mouse fanciers anywhere in the world. It would be more accurate if you were to attatch "ab" or "sub" to the front!


LMAO. But I thought being a crazy person who kept large quantities of vermin in your house or shed was considered normal in the UK? You mean its not OK over there, too? Maybe we do have something in common!


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## dwellsinshells

You know, I haven't seen one in a long time, but I had a great dutch male when I was a kid. I think they do still exist here somewhere. I'm going to keep an eye out in the future. Didn't realize they were that rare here.


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## squishy

Lovely mice and pics  x


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