# A little help with foxes



## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

Kallan is wanting to "borrow" one of my pet Siamese boys to expand her line but we were wondering a little about his genetics.

BJ is a siamese black eyed buck. Mum was a siamese fox (black eyed) and dad was a black broken marked. Grandparents were:
(mum's side) a naked buck [definitely naked, all pink and wrinkly] and a chocolate fox whereas on dad's side the parents were a black dilute tan and a dove and white broken marked. All but one of BJ's brothers and sisters have white bellies (he doesn't have white either.) All of BJ's lineage has been pet shop line (mum's side) and feeder breeder (dad's family was pet line and feeder breeder.) As Kallan is wanting to introduce the black eyed and fox genes into her lines, would it be safe to assume that there is a fairly high chance that BJ will still carry the fox or tan gene?

Hope I'm making sense and thanks for any help!!!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

A siamese fox is just a siamese tan; genetically it's at/a ch/ch or at/at ch/ch. Any c-locus colour (siamese, cream, chinchilla) will dilute a tan belly to white. Because tan is dominant over self, a mouse can't carry it. If your buck has a coloured belly he won't make any tan/fox babies because he will genetically be a/a ch/ch.

To make siamese fox, you just need to breed a siamese to a siamese fox, which will produce siamese foxes in the first generation, or you could use black tan and breed the resulting black tan babies together to make black tans and siamese foxes in the second generation.

Your buck, when bred with a siamese, should make a litter made up of black eyed and red eyed siamese, as black eyed siamese is genetically a/a ch/ce.

I hope all this makes sense and helps you!

Sarah xxx


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

That definitely makes sense! Would having a pale belly as opposed to a pure white belly indicate that the gene is present for tan?? Sorry I'm asking so many questions!! I never really bothered about their genetics because I only bred them to keep as my own pets :lol: BJ's tummy is clearly paler than the rest of him but not white the way his other brothers and sisters are.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

A fox belly should be white, but sometimes it looks kind of creamy, I think, when it's go just one c^h rather than two.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

The mouse in question is a siamese, so the belly would be white if he is a fox. Mice naturally have paler bellies, it's only selective breeding that makes the bellies the same colour as the top, so I would say your mouse is not a tan/fox.

Sarah xxx


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Okay, I'm a little confused... is fox at/* cch/cch or at/* ch/ch? Because I've been told both ways, and ch/ch is siamese, but cch/cch is chinchilla, right?


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

any of the genes cch, ch and ce would dilute a tan belly to white.

Its just that with ch/ch you get siamese as the top colour, with ce/ce you get beige as the top colour. With cch/cch, it only mildly affects the top colour, allowing for black, choc, blue and lilac foxes.

W xx


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Don't worry, it *is* confusing LOL

In show breeding terms at/at cch/cch is a black fox. The chinchilla gene dilutes red pigment to white but doesn't have much effect on black pigment, so the top of the mouse still seems black (although not as black as a proper black). If the mouse didn't have the tan gene gene but still had the chinchilla gene it would be an off-black self. Blue, chocolate and lilac foxes are made the same way, basically a tan mouse with the chinchilla gene as well.

Siamese fox, at/at ch/ch, is not technically a fox in terms of the show standard foxes that use the chinchilla gene. The siamese gene again dilutes the red pigment to white (as do all the c-locus colours) but the ch gene also has a noticeable effect on the top colour, making the black into siamese. If the mouse didn't have the tan gene it would be a normal siamese. This is the same for stone foxes (at/* ce/ce), mock chocolate foxes (at/* c/cch), cream foxes (at/* c/ce), anything on the c-locus.

I hope this makes sense!

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

*sighs* My mousey breeding hero puts things so much better than me!!

W xx


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Sorry sweetie! It's just I spent aaaaaages typing it all out and then it told me that you got there first, but I thought "b*gger it, I'll post it anyway." :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Haha! :lol:

Perfectly fine, besides, as I said... you put it so much better than me. Though I knew what i mean't, if noone else did! LOL

W xx


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## The secret garden (May 13, 2010)

uurrrgggg genetics, take it away! SarahY..... get a new book you no it all lol love you really xxxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I adore genetics!!! its so much fun Sam, you should try it, truely!!

Its absolute torture for me to try and be good and not have experiemental litters anymore!

W xx


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ah, thanks for explaining! Now I know what people kept telling me only cch/cch makes fox!


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Here's another question: could a mouse that is [at* e/e] be RY with a tan belly?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't actually know, but I would guess that at/at e/e might be recessive sable? Dominant red tan (Ay/at is a sable and as far as I know Ay and e work in the same way with every gene except blue (blue dilutes Ay but has no effect on e).

I could be wrong though, we don't have RY in England 

Sarah xxx


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

SarahY said:


> Don't worry, it *is* confusing LOL
> 
> In show breeding terms at/at cch/cch is a black fox. The chinchilla gene dilutes red pigment to white but doesn't have much effect on black pigment, so the top of the mouse still seems black (although not as black as a proper black). If the mouse didn't have the tan gene gene but still had the chinchilla gene it would be an off-black self. Blue, chocolate and lilac foxes are made the same way, basically a tan mouse with the chinchilla gene as well.
> 
> ...


Hi Sarah,

I agree with your nice explanation. But I have a question:
Why did you write "In show breeding terms at/at cch/cch is a black fox? at/a cch/cch is a black fox too. So we should write at/* Has it been a misspelling only or is there a reason to write at/at?

Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I just find it really tiring (re annoying) writing at/at or at/a all the time and assume that people realise that at is dominant over a. As you can see further on in the post, when talking about varieties that aren't show standard, I did use at/*.

I meant a couple of things by 'in show breeding terms'. Firstly, show breeders in England only breed tan x tan, outcrossing to selfs only when necessary for type and top colour - so our show quality tans and foxes* are *at/at. Secondly, in show breeding terms a fox is a black, chocolate, blue or lilac only, whereas in reality there are lots and lots of different varieties that can have a white belly.

Sarah xxx


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

I am so glad that I'm leaving the genetics to kallan!!! I'm going to stick to keeping my adoring little guys and gals as pets me thinks - maybe one day i will get a chance to go and study the genetics the way I would like to so that more than a little of this makes sense!! Thank you all for your help (and i'm keeping this saved so that I can when i get a break from work I can do a little research into mousie genetics and finally get a chance to put my science studies into use!! :lol


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