# Something seriously wrong!



## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

Some of my mice seem to be just dropping dead for no apparent reason!

All housed in modified storage tubs with plenty of ventilation.

Substrate is coco fibre with hay on top for bedding.

They get fed a basic mix of mixed straights with odd bits of vegetables every now and then, and have constant supply of water by means of bottles which get checked twice daily.

Plenty of tubs and next boxes and such for nests.

So far, I've lost 4 out of the 23 and looks like we may lose a couple more soon.

The ill ones are cold to the touch.

They came from a hobby breeder who initially feeder breeds, but also enjoys breeding for the fun itself. He has had no problems like this.

Looking at the ill ones, they go wet around the anus and sometimes have reddish faeces ( I'm thinking blood? )

It's obviously something I'm doing wrong if they are dying on me when they were previously ok with the breeder.

Anyone able to shed any light?

They are kept in the spare room which is a comfortable temperature for me in a T-shirt.

Just so annoying as it's put hell to all my breeding plans, so any help would be gratefully received.

Jake


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

The red is probably not blood, but porphyrin. It looks like blood, except blood gets more brownish when it's dry, where porphyrin stays red. It's something they get, just as we can get a runny nose or wet eyes when we have an infection. And an infection is your problem it sounds. It's not necessarily something you're doing wrong. It could be something they picked up if you recently got new mice - maybe not from the breeder, but from the trip itself. I would definitely quarantine. What that means is you take no new mice in, give no mice out, don't get in contact with other mice, use disenfectioner for your hands between every cage and change clothes after you've been in the mouse room (if possible). The quarantine should last from now and until 4 weeks after the last symptom shown. And this may sound harsh, but... I would also consider putting down all the mice that are sick already. The quicker you get rid of them, the more mice you have a chance of saving. Good luck!


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## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

Thanks for the help.

Everything will be cleaned and scrubbed and sterilised tomorrow. The mice will move into the empty spare room which will be the "quarantine room". Clothes will be hung on the door for use in that room only. Hand sanitiser will also be placed near the door for use when entering and exiting the room.

If anything else looks worse for wear tomorrow it shall be culled as soon as seen. Yes it sounds harsh, but I'd rather get rid of a few now rather than lose everything.

----------------------------------
Speaking to someone else. Their thought on the subject could be that as they are from a feeder breeder and the lines are intensively bred back to back, this could be the issue?

The only ones which are having problems are younger ones, which could be because they are becoming "adults" and their body just can't handle it?


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## Marlimoo55 (Sep 6, 2013)

I hope whatever is happening gets under control! Good luck and it seems like you are making wonderful efforts!


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Agree with everything Fantasia Mousery posted.

Adding some things. A virus, which it sounds like one to me, gets passed on to the young from mom. While nursing, and for a bit after, they have antibodies from her milk. Once that leaves their system, they have to deal with the virus themselves. Some will be fine, but some/many will not, and continue to spread an often slightly mutated virus around. How many you lose will depend on the health of their immune systems. Some have lost all but 10%. However, breeding from those 10% gave really healthy animals. (Rabbit breeders were the reference there.)

Depending on the virus, all could spread it through contact, but the ones with the active infections tend to get it airborne. One way around that, is to QT out all young mice directly after weaning, and cull any who fall ill. Some start with QTing out all reproducing mice. Most any thoughts I've read on the subject of clearing out viruses involve no breeding, and no under 8-9 week old young mice, for a 1-3 month timeframe. Some labs have cleared some viruses this way, some breeders report having done so as well.

Have to admit though, that the number one recommended method is cull all the animal in question, sterilize environment, and start over.  However, there are many viruses, and there may be some benefit in having bred only from mice, who sailed through such a thing, with no active infections noted. Inbreeding is a concentration. What gets concentrated is why it's a bad, good, or inbetween thing.

Good luck!

*edit* On paper it sounds deceptively easy, or it did to me, but I don't know how to explain the heartache and sadness such a thing can bring, as you go through it. It's hard, and a lot of day after day work. Hopefully that gives you some warning! 
Something else to keep in mind if you start second guessing, no one but you can judge how ill a mouse is before you decide it's showing signs of the infection. Mice are group minded creatures, so not making their fellow mice ill will always be in their overall favor. Remember, others have gone through this, and come out the other side, so it does eventually have an end. If you need someone to vent or cry/despair at during this, you are welcome to PM me so I get it in email notification. (I'm not always on the forum.) I also completely deserve to be wailed at, for ever thinking this sort of issue was no big deal!


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## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

Thank you for the reply.

It is more frustrating than upsetting because I don't have a definite cause or solution etc.

I did think about culling the lot, but would rather try and keep the currently ok ones going and see if they get it or just carry on as normal. If they get any signs of having it, they will be culled and disposed of.

Today everything will get sorted and cleaned. Fresh paper bedding and such to avoid anything harbouring anything nasty.


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## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

Just thought I'd do a little update for anyone interested.

I know it's only been a few days since my post, but here we go anyway.

Everything got sterilised and cleaned and scrubbed.

All bedding changed and such. Clothes only for use within the spare room have been being used, along with hand sanitiser when entering and exiting the room, as well as between cages.

Anything looking ill was culled as soon as seen to try and keep whatever it is under control and eradicate it.

Out of our initial 23 mice, we are down to 14 at the moment, but everyone is looking ok so far.

One has slight diarrhoea, but this wasn't seen with those with the virus, so not worrying too much about that, but keeping an eye on it.

All pregnant does have been moved to the other side of the room ( unfortunately I have no-where else to house them, but it's a large double room so plenty of space between them and the others.

I will update if / when anything changes next


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

Sounds good.  My fingers are crossed!
I know exactly how it is to not be able to move some mice elsewhere. We live in a fairly small flat, at all the mice are in the living room. Best I can do is move them to the bedroom.


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## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

Sadly we have lost another girl.

She was looking a bit worse for wear the other day, but then seemed to get better and looked better so I decided to keep her and see if she would survive, but sadly not


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## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

Just a little update.

13 mice left now, but everyone actually looks happy and healthy for a change. No discharges etc or anything from anyone.

A couple of the pregnant ones over t'other side of the room are looking about ready to pop so will be sorting their housing out, with fresh clean, sterilisation etc today, so babies will come into a nice clean environment.

Apart from that, nothing else to report


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Thanks for the updates.  Don't forget though... if your pregnant does are still carrying the virus (with no symptoms), their babies will be at risk a couple weeks after weaning. Plus any mice within air exchange range of the babies. Depending on the actual virus, it can be 2 full weeks, or many months (documentation is sketchy on this), before a mouse no longer carries it.

Wishing you loads of luck, and good strong immune systems for the offspring!


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

Thanks for the updates Jake. What is happening within your mousery some would just give up after losing almost 50 per cent of their stock.

Apologies for not responding sooner, what time frame between acquiring your latest mouse til the onset of your problem?

Your problem is affecting the digestive system of the mice and as such I am thinking more on the lines of contamination of food/water bedding substrate than air borne virus, but not ruling out virus altogether.

A vitamin/mineral supplement added to their diet at this time will assist the mice in recovery and continuing to supplement any new mice born and weaned over the next few months. (6 months+)

Maintaining the high standard of cleanliness you have now adopted has certainly aided in preventing any further spread of the problem if it is a virus, although as previously mentioned may still be within your mousery dormant for several months.

Contamination side of things may take upto 4 weeks for the mice to show signs that anything is wrong and is much harder to track down the source of the contamination. Fresh supply of feed from a different supplier is one method of ensuring any contamination is removed from its original source although being feed we have no control of suppliers and as such can introduce contaminated feed again, unless feed is of a quality suitable for human consumption.

Liquid bismuth will help reduce the wet anus if administered early enough and given over a 7 day period with double dose on day one.

Fingers crossed that you are on top of the situation and no further losses to your stock.


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## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

pro-petz said:


> Thanks for the updates Jake. What is happening within your mousery some would just give up after losing almost 50 per cent of their stock.
> 
> Apologies for not responding sooner, what time frame between acquiring your latest mouse til the onset of your problem?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply.

I haven't got dates, but I'd guess a fortnight or so between latest arrivals and the gates of hell opening up :lol:

any links on where I could get something to supplement their diet?

I'm keeping a very close eye on everyone at the mo, and still doing the cleanliness as high spec as possible.

Jake


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## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

Update time.

Sadly whatever we have is still going strong, even with the cleaning regime and everything. We have since lost another buck, and also have a buck who looks like he's on his way out unfortunately


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

vitamin supplement I personally use the ones used for babies and toddlers available from most pharmacies given at the rate of 1ml vitamin supplement in 150ml water. This is provided to all my pre breeding, nursing and weaning mice, time wise 4 weeks prior to pairing to 6 weeks after birth. Plus plain water is also offered to prevent any possible risk of de hydration due to the mice not liking the taste but with my mice they seem to go for the additive and empty that bottle first.

I also soak food in cod liver oil at the rate of 5ml to 1 pint of food and leave to stand after mixing for 24 hours before feeding. fed at rate of 50% oil covered food to 50% uncovered.

Mineral blocks can be purchased from all goo pet stores.

As you have been maintaining the strict high level of hygiene either the ones you have falling ill is the tail end of the problem which may last for another 3-4 weeks or as I suspect you have contamination within the mousery, food,bedding and personally I would have discarded all supplies that I had and acquired fresh as no way of determining which is contaminated.

Food could have been contaminated by wild mice at the distribution/grain stores and no way of knowing which, bedding like food could have been contaminated if using hay either at source eg field or during storage, also possible contamination.poisoning may also be from hay as many farmers now add chemical supplement to the baling process to prevent the hay from sweating and going mouldy whist in storage.

If the problem is contaminated food or bedding then the problem will remain for atleast 4-6 weeks after you have changed supplies as this is the timescale for the infection to manifest itself and result being a fast decline in the health of the mice.

Switching over the feed to rodent food blocks on a temporary basis would eliminate the possible risk of contamination on food and several manufacturers of such within the USA or a quick search on google will produce local suppliers for you.

Depending on floor covering within the room it may also be possible to spray the entire floor lightly twice daily with a strong disinfectant, or mop the floor twice daily with strong disinfectant. This will help if it is a virus to keep it low aswell as keep the dust low, ensuring if using a spray that none enters the mouse cages.

I would also have a cage plan and indicate on it if any mouse becomes ill within a cage this is purely to monitor if maybe an environmental issue is at work as in a slight draft that is affecting a certain section of the mousery so that adjustments can be made.

I also maintain an overall mousery log of temp humidity cleaning and amounts of food per cage, each time food or bedding is purchased a note is made as to where it was purchased from. Bedding I use paper towelling the big blue or white rolls which I shred for bedding and also use for the cleaning of the cages. More time consuming but also eliminates risk of allergy problems from using hay.

Hope this has helped with extra things to consider and hoping that you are now reaching the tail end of the problem and your current litters are free.


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## Silver Moon (Sep 4, 2013)

Thanks for the reply.

Everything will be noted down in "the mouse book" that I keep, alsoI like your idea of having records for pretty much anything and everything, and think I shall start doing that also.


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## mich (Sep 28, 2013)

They say an infra red lamp is very good for sickly mice. I'm seriously thinking of investing in one.


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