# Protein



## SephysManda

How much protein do mice need all together?

How much meat protein do they need?


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## geordiesmice

Nursing mice need 15 to 20 % protein in their diets , adults less than 15% and the food must be low in salt as possible .I think too much protein can cause skin iritationsand hair loss.You can give them mealworms, crickets, chicken, but a balanced diet is more important mice dont require too much fat that is a strain on there heart if a mouse carries too much weight and can shorten there life.


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## Roland

If you want to read a good overview about the nutrient requirements of mice, have a look here:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=4758&page=82

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## geordiesmice

Thats an interesting read Roland and probably I would need a digree in chemistry to understand it.


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## Roland

geordiesmice said:


> Thats an interesting read Roland and probably I would need a digree in chemistry to understand it.


Have you seen the table? I understand it and I am not a chemist :mrgreen: 
Anyway, if you have questions, just ask.

Roland


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## geordiesmice

Roland hi ,I think the asker of the question just wanted to know how much a mouse needs in protein alltogether and what % of that would be meat protein


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## Roland

geordiesmice said:


> Roland hi ,I think the asker of the question just wanted to know how much a mouse needs in protein alltogether and what % of that would be meat protein


Ok, if this is the question, then this is the correct answer: No meat protein at all. Zero % meat protein.


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## geordiesmice

ah ok I dont give my mice any meat just mealworms. That is good to know thank you.When your tris are bred in this country I hope I can get some


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## Roland

geordiesmice said:


> ah ok I dont give my mice any meat just mealworms. That is good to know thank you.When your tris are bred in this country I hope I can get some


There is need for many nutrients in special amounts, which are summarized in the table, therefore I posted the link. 
The source is irrelevant, even insects don't need to be given to mice. There is no need to feed any kind of animal protein.
Mice and all mammals need essential aminoacids and the source does not matter at all. There are plants with a high amount of essential aminoacids too, think about Soja for example. At the end of the day all animal proteins are from plants too: Plants synthesize proteins with essential aminoacids by photosynthesis and incorporating mineral N-sources, small animals eat plants and big animals eat small animals...
Why don't you take my answer as it is: A good source of information about the nutrient requirements of mice. Not more, but not less. Why do you think there is need to start a dicussion with me? Do you really think you are prepared for it?

Your other point: Tris will be in UK at Harrogate.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## SarahY

> Why do you think there is need to start a dicussion with me? Do you really think you are prepared for it?


My god, Roland :shock: That is a rather arrogant statement!

Sarah.


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## Roland




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## moustress

Ummm, yeah...the chart is good, but is rather more detailed than the question requires...and most mousey folk won't know what all the different nutrients are and how they are found in particular foods.

I think the tone of Roland's post is deceptive, and a result of English not being his original language. Answers to simple questions could be simple...for certain, Roland knows some bit more in sciences than some of us, but maybe not so much in the area of educational discourse. I believe he was being arch, not arrogant. Ooh, this qualifies as snarkiness. True snarkiness. Snarky to the max. Not as bad as either snotty or sarcastic, but a slightly mellowed blend of both, with just a hint of a smirk.
Have I offended anyone? I hope not. Just trying to throw some oil on disturbed waters.


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## racingmouse

Roland - you mention amino-acids being important and they are in many food sources and would probably be easy enough to find if researched, but could you perhaps give a list of some that we could add to our diets rather than animal based proteins? I don`t currently add any animal proteins to my mouses` mix and rely on the vegetable protiens within each ingredient, but because animal proteins are added to so many mouse and rat foods anyway, I do wonder whether it`s added because they need it, or whether it`s something manufacturers just add because they `think` it`s required?

I don`t mean for nursing mothers or mice that are used for breeding, but more of a maintenance diet. So low proteins anyway. I`m going to see what I can come up with just by googling, but if you could list some things that you already know of that mice can safely eat, that would be great.


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## Roland

Hi racingmouse,

I like your question and will try to give a detailed answer, but give me some time, I am busy this weekend and next week.

Roland


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## racingmouse

Thankyou, much appreciated. Right now, I rely solely on the following:

A rabbit mix (no animal proteins just the grains oats, wheat and barley. (I remove the corn and brightly coloured extruded biscuits.)

I also add to the above:

kallo organic wholegrain puffed rice (human grade)
Jumbo organic oats (human grade)
Budgie millet (plain)
Canary seed (this also has hemp seeds and linseed/flax seed within it)
Buckwheat (human grade)

I looked today at Quinoa (pronounced `keen-wa`, but this has to be sprouted before it`s fed/eaten and I`m not sure the mice would go for it that way! Quinoa is said to have eight amino acids, so sounds like something that could be given complimentary maybe once a week once in it`s sprouted state?

I prefer to feed dry grains and seeds though so apart from legumes, seeds and grains, there is`nt too much else to go on as much of the advice is given for human foods like eggs, fish dairy etc....

I`m trying to find out once and for all whether I`m doing the right thing by not adding some source of animal protein, but if that has to be in the form of dog kibble or rat kibble, I`m sceptical about the ingredients in these these kibbles anyway, so I`m trying to avoid using them if possible. If I knew giving the mice a few dry kibbles daily or once a week would be enough and beneficial, I would. But unless I can work out how much to feed them, then I don`t truly know if feeding kibble at all would do them any favours anyway.

Thanks for taking the time to read this Roland.


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## Stina

> There is need for many nutrients in special amounts, which are summarized in the table, therefore I posted the link.
> The source is irrelevant, even insects don't need to be given to mice. There is no need to feed any kind of animal protein.
> Mice and all mammals need essential aminoacids and the source does not matter at all. There are plants with a high amount of essential aminoacids too, think about Soja for example. At the end of the day all animal proteins are from plants too: Plants synthesize proteins with essential aminoacids by photosynthesis and incorporating mineral N-sources, small animals eat plants and big animals eat small animals...
> Why don't you take my answer as it is: A good source of information about the nutrient requirements of mice. Not more, but not less. Why do you think there is need to start a dicussion with me? Do you really think you are prepared for it?


Technically yes...the need is for specific amino acids...but they must also be in certain conformations...for example there are multiple types of methionine and not all are useable by all mammals. They must also be in the correct ratios and overall amounts for an animal to remain healthy and be in prime condition. Different types and forms have different bioavailability to different animals injesting them. An animal that evolved as an omnivore (such as mice) are MEANT to eat animal proteins...they are what their bodies are made to digest. Mice may not _technically _require animal protein (from bugs or other sources) but that does not mean that it is not in their best interest to have some. Also, some amino acids are not produced by ANY non-animal sources and some species cannot produce them (or at least can't produce them in high enough amounts) on thier own. A lot of things not naturally produced by plant sources can be synthesized in labs (and are...and are added to foods to make up for the imbalances and deficiencies).....but how useable are the synthesized forms?.....is that really the best option when natural amino acids and other things can be included by using an animal source for feeding?....


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## Jack Garcia

My mice currently get about 40% protein, a large part of it animal protein (derived from scrambled eggs). They also get insects and cat food.

The rest of their diet is composed of plant-derived material (Mazuri lab blocks, plus whole grains and seeds).


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## Jack Garcia

Roland said:


>


I love this!


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## geordiesmice

Ask a true mouse fancier who has kept mice for years and know exactly what there doing and what they feed or have fed there mice successfully for years.I wouldnt go past what the two sarah's , jack Garcia, Moustress and what the others say on here. They are successfull mouse breeders, fanciers, show people.I take all in they say im sure they can give you alist of none animal proteins racingmouse infact doing searches on posts from this forum may give you better answers than googling it.


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## Stina

....I've been breeding mice since '05, have a degree in animal sciences, and went to vet school for a year...I'm not trying to be obnoxious...just to "qualify" myself as that post seemed to me to be disqualifying my post as irrelevant b/c I'm not one of the experienced people...... Perhaps I misunderstood...but it made me feel the need to defend myself.


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## geordiesmice

Exactly Stina I include people like your good self there are lots of people with lots of knowledge on here .Like myself im qualified in horticulture for 25 years there isnt much I do not know. I hope I dont sound big headed or a bully


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## Stina

ok...I definitely read it wrong...lol I love the internet as a resource...but its always so hard to get the "tone" in which a post is made...

btw my grandmother is a botanist  ...random...but you being a horticulturist made me think of her!


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## Jack Garcia

I am a botanist too. Ok, no I'm not. But I wish I was.

I love plants and their care. At one point I had over 100 houseplants. Then, I got a cat.


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## racingmouse

Thanks very much guys, I appreciate everyones opinions on this. If it comes down to it, I will start adding dog kibble slowly, but because I only keep pet mice (and not large colonies of breeding stock) I`m a bit baffled by how much, how often, you know? I usually just get to the point where I`m adding an animal protein source through using a rat kibble for example and then get put off by either the mice not particularly liking it, or people saying `Don`t feed that as it`s animal derivitives!`.... :roll:

I`m not at the stage where I`m not sure which direction to go. Geordie, yes there are many really good breeders on here and they will have tried and tested many of the protein sources out there, but I`m not a breeder and don`t require such high concentrations of animal proteins. So this is my dilemma. I`m going to wait over the weekend and take in what everyone has to say on the subject and then go from there. I do feel as though I should be adding animal sourced protein, but the Burgess Rat Royale kibble I used to feed went down like a wet balloon! So that got chucked.

I just want to know what the best, low protein kibble would be that I could buy locally (supermarkets for example) as I don`t need large bags of the stuff as I hate it going past it`s use by/sell by date. I liked the sound of the pedigree small bite mixer and I know I can get that locally, but wil look at a few other on the shelves and see what`s available.

In the meantime, I really need to know whether I should be adding half a cup of kibble to my overall grains mix, or just giving the girls one small kibble a day as a treat? But would that even be enough? :?:


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## geordiesmice

Yes Stina its like texting it can sometimes sound differently, Jack I normally kill houseplants lol.Racing mouse I add about 20% kibble to my mix, Im sure there are vegetable derivatives to dog kibble though.Wild mice eat whatever they can get there not very choosey yet they survive well dont they.


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## Stina

I wonder if the ingredients list on european pet foods are less detailed than here in the US....here they are very detailed. If say beef meal is an ingredient....it has to be beef muscle with the moisture removed. It can't have organs or bone or anything in it. Our ingredient lists are pretty easy to read if you understand what the different terms mean. They will normally list every type of animal, grain, vegetable, etc used and what parts and/or how they were processed prior to going into the food.


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## racingmouse

Over here Stina labels will say things like `turkey meat meal or chicken meal`....or `animal derivitives` which basically means the entrails of the animals and other things like beaks, feet etc...

One thing that bothers me the most however, and geordie reminded me when he mentioned vegetable origins, is that many dog kibbles have CORN mixed into the kibble. Now I pick out the corn/maize in my rabbit mix, so if I fed a certain kibble, I would be adding it back in again, which I don`t want to be doing. So there lies another dilemma....


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## Stina

We have a lot of dog foods here that do not use corn. For my own dogs I get totally grain free food...and the rodents get a small amount of it...but for the rodents I get corn, and soy free foods that use other things like oats, barley, rice, and various veggies and fruits.


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## Stina

http://www.tdbstore.com/items/dog-food/ ... detail.htm
I just bought some of this yesterday at a GREAT deal and have gotten a bunch for free before as well...the rodents love it and its full of good stuff with very little questionable ingredients.


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## Roland

Stina said:


> ....I've been breeding mice since '05, have a degree in animal sciences, and went to vet school for a year...I'm not trying to be obnoxious...just to "qualify" myself as that post seemed to me to be disqualifying my post as irrelevant b/c I'm not one of the experienced people...... Perhaps I misunderstood...but it made me feel the need to defend myself.


I think the thoughts of the authors in this thread are close together. No need to defend something or someone. Let us try to collect the facts together. CU later.

Roland


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## geordiesmice

There are feedstuff regulations governing pet and farm feeds so proteins etc where there derived from have to be listed. Any animal based raw material, however, must have been passed as fit for human consumption before it itself is added to pet food this all comes about after the foot and mouth and swine fever. So any proteins must be safe for us too eat before our pets are fed it in processed pet food.


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## Jack Garcia

In the US, Mazuri is a complete diet all by itself, formulated for use in laboratories, zoos, and research centers. So is Harlan.

If you're really concerned about adequacy, you can't go wrong feeding _just_ either of those.

If you want to supplement with other things, what I do is to feed the mice blocks-only (nothing else besides water) on Friday, then wait until Monday to give them their other food. This way, you ensure that they have a couple of days to eat at least some of the blocks.


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## Stina

My guys have always eaten their blocks anyway...lol They like the Harlan blocks


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## geordiesmice

Nuts provide protein for eg hazelnuts .Science supreme do a good mix in the UK it contains apple as an anti oxidant.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/z ... 0573.htm.I cant get lab blocks where I live.


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## racingmouse

I`m not a fan of pellets or mouse blocks really as mices` tastes tend to change, so I prefer the varieties. I know they say the blocks prevent select feeding, but I`m not convinced that mice are happy eating the same boring block every day! With a mix, you can change a few of the ingredients and add or take away. Obviously the block food is wholly nutritionally worked out and probably an easier method, but I like the individual ingredients personally.

Geordie, I like to think all the rules and regulations governing animal feedstuffs is strict, but I don`t particulary like some of the things they include in some foods. I would need to be a nutritionist and a bit of a scientist to work out and analyze everything within a mix or a kibble, so I trust their judgement....not!


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## Stina

Technically to produce your own mix it would be ideal to be a nutristionist...b/c unless you know the levels of all the vitamins and other nutrients in every ingredient you include, it is very difficult to know if you actually giving them all the nutrition they need.


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## geordiesmice

My mix contains poultrymix,wild bird seed, oats, dog kibble.
occasionally mealworms and bread, scrambled egg.


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## Jack Garcia

racingmouse said:


> as mices` tastes tend to change,


This is not objective information. Nobody can really say if their tastes change.


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## moustress

Isn't 40% protein way too high for mousie health?


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## racingmouse

What I mean by a change of taste, is sometimes they start to leave certain things within the mix and never eat them, so you can switch those for something else and rotate your actual ingredients. With pellets and blocks you can`t do this. I would have thought 40% protein is way too high aswell moustress. Even for breeding mice. My rabbit base mix is only 12.5% protein but with adding in all the other seeds and grains, it`s difficult to work out the total protein I feed. This is where the confusion sets in for me because I don`t know if I`m upping the protein content or diluting it? I would need to take each protein level in each of the ingredients and get the calculator out! It just confuses me even more.


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## geordiesmice

My mix has 10% which is the kibble .The poultry mix is 70% of the mix its not pelleted or layers mash (growers or starter) which is very high in protein.The poultry mix contains 17% protein which is fine.The oats I use is a very small amount not porridge oats that contains over 18 grams of fat in it.Rolled oats is the bulk of alot of animal feeds just a sprinkle of that or groats .The thing is mice are only small there matabalisim is high like alot of rodents they need energy you dont give them massive dishes of food or you will get a fat mouse.Im interested to know what you guys put in your mouse mixes , if you buy the food and have alot of mice it must work out expensive,my mice used to waste alot till I made my own maybe I should cut the oats out but I have healthy mice no issues in five years I have not lost a baby mouse, or a adult mouse apart from old age, no lice, or diseases.My oldest mouse I kept for 3 years long enough I think.


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## Roland

As promissed here are my two cents about protein sources for nutrition. 
I know that the mean fancier is not interested in scientific details, but it does not harm to have some background knowledge, which is based on scientific facts. 
*If science bores you, just stop reading this text now. *









Proteins are nitrogen-containing substances that are formed by amino acids. They serve as the major structural component of muscle and other tissues in the body. In addition, they are used to produce hormones, enzymes and hemoglobin. Proteins can also be used as energy; however, they are not the primary choice as an energy source. For proteins to be used by the body they need to be metabolized into their simplest form, amino acids. There have been 20 amino acids identified that are needed for growth and metabolism. Twelve of these amino acids are termed nonessential, meaning that they can be synthesized by our body and do not need to be consumed in the diet. The remaining amino acids cannot be synthesized in the body and are described as essential meaning that they need to be consumed in our diets. The absence of any of these amino acids will compromise the ability of tissue to grow, be repaired or be maintained.

The quality of a protein is vital when considering the nutritional benefits that it can provide. Determining the quality of a protein is determined by assessing its essential amino acid composition, digestibility and bioavailability of amino acids (FAO/WHO, 1990).
There are several measurement scales and techniques that are used to evaluate the quality of protein.

*Protein Efficiency Ratio*

The protein efficiency ratio (PER) determines the effectiveness of a protein through the measurement of animal growth. This technique requires feeding rats a test protein and then measuring the weight gain in grams per gram of protein consumed. The computed value is then compared to a standard value of 2.7, which is the standard value of casein protein. Any value that exceeds 2.7 is considered to be an excellent protein source.

*Biological Value*

Biological value measures protein quality by calculating the nitrogen used for tissue formation divided by the nitrogen absorbed from food. The biological value provides a measurement of how efficient the body utilizes protein consumed in the diet. A food with a high value correlates to a high supply of the essential amino acids. Animal sources typically possess a higher biological value than vegetable sources due to the vegetable source's lack of one or more of the essential amino acids.

*Net Protein Utilization*

Net protein utilization is similar to the biological value except that it involves a direct measure of retention of absorbed nitrogen. Net protein utilization and biological value both measure the same parameter of nitrogen retention, however, the difference lies in that the biological value is calculated from nitrogen absorbed whereas net protein utilization is from nitrogen ingested.

*Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score*

In 1989, the Food & Agriculture Organization and World Health Organization (FAO/WHO) in a joint position stand stated that protein quality could be determined by expressing the content of the first limiting essential amino acid of the test protein as a percentage of the content of the same amino acid content in a reference pattern of essential amino acids (FAO/WHO, 1990).

Table 1 provides a measure of the quantity of various proteins using these protein rating scales.










*Animal Protein*

Typically, all dietary animal protein sources are considered to be complete proteins. That is, a protein that contains all of the essential amino acids. Proteins from vegetable sources are incomplete in that they are generally lacking one or two essential amino acids. Thus, someone who desires to get their protein from vegetable sources (i.e. vegetarian) will need to consume a variety of vegetables, fruits, grains, and legumes to ensure consumption of all essential amino acids. As such, individuals are able to achieve necessary protein requirements without consuming beef, poultry, or dairy. Protein digestibility ratings usually involve measuring how the body can efficiently utilize dietary sources of protein. Typically, vegetable protein sources do not score as high in ratings of biological value, net protein utilization, PDCAAS, and protein efficiency ratio as animal proteins.
Protein from animal sources during late pregnancy is believed to have an important role in infants born with normal body weights. Godfrey et al. (1996) examined the nutrition behavior of more than 500 pregnant women to determine the effect of nutritional intake on placental and fetal growth.
They reported that a low intake of protein from dairy and meat sources during late pregnancy was associated with low birth weights.
In addition to the benefits from total protein consumption, elderly subjects have also benefited from consuming animal sources of protein. Diets consisting of meat resulted in greater gains in lean body mass compared to subjects on a lactoovovegetarian diet (Campbell et al., 1999).
High animal protein diets have also been shown to cause a significantly greater net protein synthesis than a high vegetable protein diet (Pannemans et al., 1998). This was suggested to be a function of reduced protein breakdown occurring during the high animal protein diet.

There have been a number of health concerns raised concerning the risks associated with protein emanating primarily from animal sources. Primarily, these health risks have focused on cardiovascular disease (due to the high saturated fat and cholesterol consumption), bone health (from bone resorption due to sulfur-containing amino acids associated with animal protein) and other physiological system disease.

Life span can be extended in animals by restricting food availability (food low in aminoacids), as could be shown in several studies, e.g. Orentreich et al., 1993, Sun et al., 2009.

*Vegetable Protein*

Vegetable proteins, when combined to provide for all of the essential amino acids, provide an excellent source for protein considering that they will likely result in a reduction in the intake of saturated fat and cholesterol. Popular sources include legumes, nuts and soy. 
Vegetable sources of protein also provide numerous other nutrients such as phytochemicals and fiber that are also highly regarded in the diet.
Soy is the most widely used vegetable protein source in humans. 
The American and European populations consumes a relatively low intake of soy protein compared to Asian countries. Soy protein was reported to be equivalent to animal protein with a PDCAAS score of 1.0, the highest possible rating (Hasler, 2002).
Soy's quality makes it a very attractive alternative for those seeking non-animal sources of protein in their diet and those who are lactose intolerant. Soy is a complete protein with a high concentration of BCAA's. There have been many reported benefits related to soy proteins relating to health and performance (including reducing plasma lipid profiles, increasing LDL-cholesterol oxidation and reducing blood pressure).
Based upon a multitude of studies examining the health benefits of soy protein the American Heart Association issued a statement that recommended soy protein foods in a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol to promote heart health (Erdman, 2000). The health benefits associated with soy protein are related to the physiologically active components that are part of soy, such as protease inhibitors, phytosterols, saponins, and isoflavones (Potter, 2000).

*CONCLUSIONS*

It does appear that protein from animal sources is an important source of protein. However, the potential health concerns associated with a diet of protein consumed primarily from animal sources should be acknowledged. With a proper combination of sources, vegetable proteins may provide similar benefits as protein from animal sources.

Many commercial food blocks are designed for maximizing profit of the suppliers. Therefore often the cheapest sources of essential aminoacids are used: by-products of animals (slaughterhouse garbage).

Mice should be fed according to there individual need, old bucks for example need less animal protein (and have an extended lifespan then) than females during late pregnancy and less than growing puppies.

Source: Most parts of this text are an excerpt from Hoffmann, JR & Falvo, MJ, Journal of Sports, Science and Medicine (2004) 3, 118-130. The publication is available to the public under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License.

*What are typical seeds used to feed rodents and what are their characteristics / nutritional values?

Read more soon...*

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## geordiesmice

Roland very interesting read how long would you peform the PER test on a mouse? Im not a mean fancier by the way


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## racingmouse

That`s great Roland, many thanks indeed for posting this. Interested to read the second part regarding seeds and their typical values. I`m happy that my girls get a good selection of grains and seeds that I`m always looking to add more to, but it`s the animal protein side of things that I can never understand in terms of % percentage and volumes to add to what I already feed. I don`t want to be adding dog kibble at all, but having read that aniaml proteins are a `whole` source of these essential amino acids, I don`t feel that the grain based diet is giving them enough of what they require?

Do I add half a cup of dog kibble to the grains and seed mix? Or do I buy a suitable kibble and just give them a kibble each a day as a treat? But if I do that, how do I know they are being overfed or underfed protein? The Shunamite diet written by Alison Campbell (for rats I have to add and not mice) but mice can eat the same things as rats to a certain extent, states that dog kibble can be added, especially if you use a rabbit mix as your base (as I do) as rabbit food does not contain animal proteins, but not all dog foods are suitable and she only lists the ones that are. So if I was to add one that was`nt on that list, I would be doing so purely on the basis of the protein, fat and carbohydrate stated on the box and hoping I chose a good kibble.

She also goes on to say that "using large quantities of dog kibble can raise the fat level of the overall diet considerably"....so try to stick to an overall fat level of 4-5%. This is exactly why I don`t want to be adding more than I need to.


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## geordiesmice

I think in a feed mix a breeder/show person will make up will contain more wild bird seed as they want the mice to grow quickly there are all kinds of seed in that .With pet mice you reduce the seed content because it will make the mouse very fat.People use soya bean but it may be GM so you have to be carefull with that I wouldnt use soya but if you remove that I think you have to replace it with some form of animal protein, and you can get low fat dog kibble too and greyhound kibble which I have used and the mice love.


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## racingmouse

It`s all very confusing Georgie. I would`nt feed soya either, which is why nothing I already feed has soya in it. Although many dog kibbles have `hidden` ingredients and I like to know exactly what`s in something. Fillers like corn and alfalfa I never feed for example, but corn and soya can be included in kibble, so unless it`s a hidden ingredient, I would`nt know what the kibble contained apart from it saying meat juices, meal, vegetable origin etc.... like many animal foods seem to say. The analysis breakdown is one thing, but the ingredients are not always made clear. Salt is another bugbare. I can`t imagine they don`t pack kibble with salt to make it pallitable to a dog (which is probably why they always state that the dog should have plenty to drink)? I don`t want my poor mice dehydrating!

I asked a neighbour this morning for three of those small gravy bones that you can feed dogs as a treat as she has a collie. Well I broke the end off one, placed it into the girls dish....Rosie turned her nose up, but the new girl Betsy vanished with it! I think she`s stashed it somewhere because I heard her nibbling on something half an hour ago and she was`nt in her food dish, so she must like the taste. It was just a trial really to see how it went, so it was a 50/50 yes-no! I have no idea what these gravy bones contain, but they are a gravy colour and smell beefy, so I`m guessing they have some kind of meat juices in them.

I`m still debating the kibble....


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## Roland

geordiesmice said:


> Im not a mean fancier by the way


Are you sure?


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## SarahY

Roland, I've had to delete your post - that's not really an appropriate link for a forum to which children have access 

Sarah xxx


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## racingmouse

I posted about a book I have recently (It`s a german paperback called `Mice - By Horst Bielfeld` and in it, a list of ingredients that a mouse diet should contain and the list was all grains and seeds. The books author goes on to mention that in the wild, mice will eat the odd insect or morcel of meat that it finds lying around, but won`t actually hunt for these. So given that animal proteins are mentioned, it seems that they don`t need to be fed in high volumes in the form of kibbles, but perhaps as a seperate addition perhaps as a dog biscuit that the mice can nibble on? I`m thinking that if I bought a small box of plain dog biscuit treats like bonio (for example) that I was happy contained organic chicken and were wheat based, the mice could just choose when they wanted to nibble on one? So in a way, they would have access to an animal protein source, but without actually feeding it in the form of a kibble?


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## geordiesmice

This is it racingmouse in the wild a mouse is more an oportunist he or she will feed on what they find .This is how grain silos get over run with mice its a feeding haven for them you find mice eating pig food, the swill and bread years ago the pig farmers collected mice and rats fed on that , molasis what they feed horses mice love that too. At work we had to get the pest control officer to call when the sacks of grass seed used to get attacked lol they would even nest in the bags of seed, we worry too much about feeding mice really but we want the best healthiest pets/show mice we can get.I would imagine a wildmouse mum will look for extra protein when she is pregnant or nursing but on the wholethere grain eaters exactly I agree.I bought some more kibble today to make my mix when you mix it in the poultry corn and bird seed you have to be carefull you dont give the mice too much kibble because the smaller seeds fall to the bottom when you mix it up.


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## geordiesmice

Roland said:


> geordiesmice said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im not a mean fancier by the way
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure?
Click to expand...

No I am not mean Roland I spend alot of money on my mice thank you.I wondered what you meant by ''mean Fanciers'' in your copied and pasted post on protein ? you dont know me .


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## Stina

I'm thinking roland did not mean "mean"....but I'm not sure what he did mean either....


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## SarahY

Judging by Roland's obvious penchant for unkind comments, I'm guessing he did mean 'mean' - and if so that was totally out of order :evil:

Sarah.


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## Stina

Perhaps he meant average?

Remember that English is not his first language...and much of what comes across as unkind is unintentional.


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## geordiesmice

Stina it is a forum to discuss Mice breeding not the people on the forum mean or even average need not of been put on that post. He does not know me or what I do with mice im not particuarly interested in his opinion to be honest.I have just made a comment on what he described me as a mean fancier and I disaprove of that comment but I have not made a formal complaint about it but rightly it has been also observed by the moderators and they have too keep the site harmonious.I have been a moderator on forums and chats and you dont make comments like that .I will leave it at that


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## Stina

When someone's first language is not english....that HAS to be considered when they are making comments. Words and comments posted may be taken as meaning COMPLETELY different things from how they are meant. I understand that you took offense...but that doesn't mean that Roland's intent was to say what you understood it as. BTW...I am an admin on another forum that Roland is on and I am accustomed to his posting and writing styles. He is frequently misunderstood b/c of the language barriers. That's not to say he definitely wasn't being obnoxious intentionally....I'm just saying he may very well not have meant what you are thinking he meant.


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## geordiesmice

Well let him answer for himself then


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## SarahC

Stina said:


> When someone's first language is not english....that HAS to be considered when they are making comments.


Rolands repeated rude comments have been tolerated for to long because of allowances for a language barrier.This tolerance has ended and further rudeness will result in action.


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## Roland

geordiesmice said:


> Well let him answer for himself then












I posted quite a lot of information in this thread about feeding mice and proteins. The information is not that bad, right? Nevertheless I got insulted twice, for the first message to be much to special for the average fancier, and now because a translation of "durchschnittlich" was wrong. I knew "mean" from statistics only.

Einige Mitglieder in diesem Forum, deren Muttersprache Englisch ist, machen trotzdem auch Fehler. 
So wird manchmal "there" and "their" verwechselt. So what? Does it really matter?









Liebe Grüße, Roland


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## SarahC

Roland said:


> geordiesmice said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well let him answer for himself then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted quite a lot of information in this thread about feeding mice and proteins. The information is not that bad, right? Nevertheless I got insulted twice, for the first message to be much to special for the average fancier,
Click to expand...

Yes the information may be useful and it's unfortunate if you feel insulted.Are you familiar with the saying 'there is no smoke with out fire?Some of your previous posts have left others insulted but I have witnessed no regret on your part.


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## racingmouse

Ehem.....well back on topic, I was in Tesco this morning and after much googling at what they had in stock (not much on the kibble front at all or dog biscuits for that matter), I settled for an 83p bag of pedigree gravy bones. The girls seem to enjoy little bits of these bashed up into their daily mix. It`s not `kibble` as such, but since I don`t want to overload the protein, I thought the gravy bones would at least be a complimentary addition. They contain:

Protein 11%
Oil 7%
Ash 18% (this is vitamin and mineral content)
Fibre 1%

Ingredients: Cereals (does`nt say which) :roll: 
Minerals
Meat and `animal derivatives` (there`s that nasty word again....derivateives)
Derivatives of vegetable origin
Oils & Fats

Also contains omega 3 and calcium

I opted for these just as a start really. The girls seem to enjoy the broken bits of gravy bone so I`ll see how it goes. If they keep eating it I`ll know they are enjoying it. If not, then I`ll look into a kibble of some sort, or might just start adding a bag of rat food to what they already get to add the animal protein source, but I know a lot of that would be wasted in terms of large extruded biscuits, corn and beans etc....


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## racingmouse

Well so far, the girls seem to enjoy the little bits of broken gravy bones I add daily to their feed, but they only get a quarter of a small bone daily as I don`t want to overdo it. In fact, I don`t even know that it`s benefitting them in any way. I`m really only adding this because etiquette seems to dictate that mice should have some kind of animal protein source combined into their diet, so rather than add actual dog kibble (of which there are not many I would trust anyway not to be loaded with slaugher house garbage) I resigned myself to using gravy bones. Although there are probably better bonio type organic biscuits out there I could use so I will look into that soon.

Roland, will you be posting the second part of the literature on the grains? I would love to see that and read about which grains have what amino acids and how much?


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## moustress

Um hmmm. Maybe we all need to reread our posts before actually posting them for others to read? Roland, I guess, should be given the benefit of the doubt, as I don't think he meant what he's being accused of, even though he has shown some small bit of meanness from time to time. Give him the benefit of the doubt. I understood that he was using a statistical term in a conversational context and I suspect that his use of English came through exposure to English language scientific texts for the most part.


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## geordiesmice

Moustress he knew what he was writing and he knows the meaning of the wording too.Can it all be forgotten now in the past and lets get on with disscussing the Mice which is what we are here for.


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## geordiesmice

The gravybones sound fine racingmouse and if they enjoy them, dont give them too much then they wont get fat.I sprinkle the kibble into there food when I feed them, and dont give them too much I use pedigree small bite.The mix smells lovely with the Aniseed in and apparently it is used to condition the mouses coat and makes it shine.


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## racingmouse

I could`nt get the Pedigree small bite mixer in Tesco geordie so opted for the gravy bones in the meantime until I can have a snoop around for something more suitable. I only break off a small end of bone and tap it up in my pestle & mortar and add it into the girls daily food, so it`s only really a small piece they receive once a day. I would love to be able to find an organic chicken based kibble that was under 20% protein and was`nt sold in large bags! I know Burns do organic dog stuff but it`s not easy to source in supermarkets and smaller shops. I don`t have access to our Pets At Home either as it`s on an Industrial site and need a car to access it. I`ll keep my eyes open though.


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## geordiesmice

I had roast chicken for tea tonight and put some small pieces of the carcass in for the mice they absoloutely love it excellent protein for Does with babies, what they leave I will remove tonight


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## racingmouse

Well it seems my girls are not keen on the gravy bones much. :roll: It leaves me with a dilemma really because I would like to know they are getting a source of animal proteins from somewhere, but the majority of dog foods and kibbles around here are not great, so I thought I might look into buying a bag of rat mix and adding that. Trouble is, I would only be buying it for it`s extruded biscuits that include chicken/turkey or meat meal and any grains and probably chucking the rest, so I would have lost of waste. Rat mixes also seem to be full of:

Corn
Alfalfa
Carob/which is locust beans and never get eaten

These are the three ingredients I would most likely have to throw away if I went the rat mix route just to get the meat meal biscuits. Then you look at Hamster mixes and they are much the same. Full of grains and nuts that I would need to pick out. Help! :help


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## AnnB

I think you'll just have to keep experimenting with different foods April until you find something you're happy with. Mine quite like the Pedigree small bite mixer and I add some to my mix as and when I remember to buy some. I tried the mice on Tesco complete dog food and they weren't so keen on that. They do love the James Wellbeloved turkey and rice complete kitten food but it's very high in protein so I keep it for occasional treats only. At least if the mice decide they don't like any of it, I've got a cat and dogs who will happily polish it off.


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## racingmouse

Thanks Ann. I looked for the Pedigree small bite mixer in Tesco and they did`nt have it, but I will look in Asda and elsewhere. Trouble is, I don`t know if the girls will actually like it (given that they don`t care much for the gravy bones) so thought I would take a look back at Rat mixes. But then I remembered why I never used a rat mix as my base because many of the rat mixes are full of the grains or cereals I ommit, which is why I use a rabbit mix as my base because it has more variety, although having said that, comparing the rabbit mix with a commercial rat mix, there is`nt that much difference between them as far as grains go (oats, barley and wheat). So I may end up either mixing the two together and having the benefit of the animal protein the rat mix includes, or using a rat mix as my actual `base` and ditching the rabbit food. Although I will have to compare both and see which is the more beneficial.

Why is feeding mice so confusing these days? What ever happened to the days when we walked into a pet shop and bought a bag of hamster mix and that was it! We`ve become so discerning in our opinions about the diet for our mice nowadays it makes the head spin!!!

Or maybe I`m just making things difficult for myself and asking too many questions instead of just feeding them what`s basically a commercial mix without all this hassle.... :roll:


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## zany_toon

Instead of worrying about the dog biscuits RM, how about trying to give your mice a little chicken? Mine like it as a treat (as long as the chicken hasn't had anything added to it and it's been dry roasted or dry fried) so that would save the waste for you if you were eating chicken yourself - you could cook a fillet and freeze it for long enough after chopping it up into little bits. It would mean you could feed it whenever you felt like it without waste and without worrying about whether the mice would like it after buying a big bag! :lol:


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## geordiesmice

I agree Zany toon,they love chicken especially picking it off the bones as long as you havn't put salt or anything on .


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## racingmouse

Thanks for the tip guys. I do have roast chicken now and then so will cut off a few dry bits and cut them up into small pieces and see if the girls like it. Might just play this by ear and add different protein sources from time to time.


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## AnnB

I must have fussy mice, they didn't like chicken at all!


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## racingmouse

Neither have any of mine Ann which is why I prefer a dry source than a fresh source. They won`t eat veggies either! I don`t mind that though as the ones that did eat the odd green pea or two always took the runs afterwards! I guess some mice like them and some don`t.


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## zany_toon

AnnB said:


> I must have fussy mice, they didn't like chicken at all!


Better than having a mouse that thinks it's a garbage disposal unit - mine eat everything (except their medicine if it doesn't come on biscuit :roll: ) including the photo frame and my national record of achievements folder that I made the mistake of leaning against their cage!!


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## AnnB

Oh yes, mine will try to eat things they aren't supposed to eat. When we were on holiday in the motorhome, my partner had left his leather jacket next to the mouse cage and they had a great time trying to pull that through the bars.


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