# grouping males



## raisin

I currently have two males living together and apart from the normal spats, they get along well. They live in the size-equivalent of a ten gallon. My first litter has around 5 males in it. (I'm trying to get homes for most). They'll be weaned soon, so I wonder if they would be fine in a 55 gallon tank together with my adult males for permanent living.

general consensus says males can't get along, but has anyone tried a colony of males? The colony concept applies to many semi-aggressive fishes- you must have at least six of a species like female bettas so any aggression will be spread out. let me know of any success or disasters involving keeping a several male mice in a decent sized space (with enough toys and hides, of course!) thanks!
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I know that mice are genetically predispositioned to get along with closely related mice, so it might not be a problem. however, if I put in males from different litters it might get bad. mmm. regardless, I will try this anyway. if it doesn't go well, I'll use the tank for my female colony.


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## WoodWitch

The fact that you're talking about "the normal spats" in the very first line of your post should tell you everything!


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## SarahY

In my stud even males from the same litter will start fighting at six weeks old, sometimes younger. Don't even try it; do you really want to come home to a tank full of injured, suffering mice?


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## PPVallhunds

It normaly does not work long term even related males from the same litter. Most of mine will start arguing at around 12 weeks. If yours are arguing you realy should split them up as its so easy for an argument to turn into an attack. Also you will get one buck who is more dominant so all those little spats will be putting stress on the lower ranking male.

I've kept bucks in groups in the past but only once it worked out untill I bred one of them that was and he then killed his cage mate of a year. That was before I found out that keeping males together wasn't advised. So much comes down the the personalities of each buck and I've never been able to have bucks who have bred adept other males.

I first had a group of over 15 bucks together, there was one top buck and then his second buck. He went around bullying the weaker lower males untill he got to the point of attacking one. Once he attacked the second would join in the attack, the other bucks were allways very jumpy due to living in fear of being his next target I guess. My second group came about from the males who were attacked by those two bucks, one was lucky not to lose his tail and testicles. That group did well together, I guess as they were lower ranking bucks there may have had less testosterone than the adverage buck, it took forever to get one to breed which would back that thought up. When I did breed them there was only the two left, I bred one and put him back and the next morning her had turned on the other buck and attacked him so badly he had to be put down.

Now I seperate every buck past 10-12 weeks as its not worth the risk as they can kill each other in a very short time it's not worth the risk to there lives. Which is something you have to take into account if you want to breed. I would not advise anyone bother to try grouping males due to the risks.


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## raisin

okay. well, I guess I will be separating my males when they get weaned. there are actually 7 boys. I got a chance to get a better look at all 12 babies. that means I need to find a lot more new homes than I thought! as for my two starter males, by " normal" spats I am referring to just mousey behavior. I haven't actually ever witnessed any disagreements. I guess what I meant specifically was a bit of barbering on my littler guy's face- I don't consider it serious. if I ever saw any actual injuries on either, I would separate them. The older one has mated though. from what you are telling me it's a matter of time. well shoot. I will separate all the males. I really love them and it would suck if somebody got killed.

so here's a thing; my science teacher has a mixed colony of many males and many females. I guess the females keep male tensions down, huh? Also a ton of males are always kept together in pet stores and it all seems hunky-dory.


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## SarahY

In my experience mice in pet stores are very young, sometimes only three or four weeks old and, in most lines of mice, males start fighting at 10 to 12 weeks. They'd have all been sold by then. My Dutch do start fighting unusually early.

As for your science teacher's colony, a lot of females would ease the tension between the males, as long as there are more females than males the bucks probably won't fight. That kind of living is extremely stressful for all of the mice though, male or female.


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## WoodWitch

I have experience of colony breeding. Fights happened between males.


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## moustress

There are ways to improve the chances of related males living together without injuring one another. In my experience, the fighting start about the time the young males start to produce the musky gup with which they then mark everything.

Anyone other than me noticed how newly matured bucks smell like fresh buttered popcorn?

I like it!


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## PPVallhunds

I wouldn't take what you see in petshops on face value, as sarah said they are normaly baby animals, also any injured or dead ones would be taken out before the shop opens to the public. theres been a few people who have come on here who have brought injured bucks from feeder bins in petshops abroard, or complained about ded and dieing ones in the tanks in the worse petshops.


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## raisin

doesn't it depend entirely on your groups' gene pool as to whether or not they get along?


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## PPVallhunds

More personalities, you could breed from a buck who you have managed to keep in a group but his sons may still not be able to be near other males when older. I've heard people suggesting it could be due to some bucks having a lower testosterone levels as neutered bucks seem easyer to house apparently.


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## WoodWitch

PPVallhunds said:


> More personalities.


Yes, and chance.
Whilst it would be more convenient for most of us if it were not the case, in nature, male mice just do not hang around together and they are territorial. There are cases where people have successfully managed several males but to give advice on a public forum, that it is anything other than inadvisable to keep males together, wouldn't be the right thing.


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## PPVallhunds

A good point WoodWitch about the wild ones, as there the same species as the wild house mouse, realy people who do try to keep bucks together are going against the animals natural instincts.
Kind of like some one wanting to leave a terrier in a box with a rat and hoping it wont do what it was bred to do.

All my bucks get there own box by 8-12 weeks. Cant risk my boys getting an injury.


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## raisin

so how do you house your males in regards to toys, supplies, tank-size, and companionship, etc? I am using my science teacher's space and I feel he wouldn't approve of that many cages in his room. I could always keep them in littler bins but I would feel bad.

I am working on rehoming my little males and am only keeping one of the baby boys, but of course that's three cages already; plus my female group; plus another two cages for a mating pair (female wont be with others due to introductions. Then the dude will also be alone. They'd only live there temps. though before coming home); not to mention any boys that don't get rehomed this week!

BTW, I will always take better care of my mice than pet stores and my teacher. I disagree with keeping sexes together and how he houses them- in fact what got me into mice was me trying to improve his guys' conditions!


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## SarahY

My bucks all have their own box and for companionship they have a steady stream of wives. I don't keep non breeding bucks because bucks lose condition if kept completely alone. The solitary pet male mouse needs a lot of stimulation to stop getting bored, depressed, and losing condition.


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## PPVallhunds

None of my mice get toys, they get nesting material and something to chew on. I use converted storage boxs. My buck will live in a box with 2-3 does and after 3 weeks he will move out either to another box with 2-3 does or if I don't want to breed him again just yet he gets a smaller box for a little while.
I don't keep any as pets so the few bucks I have are all up on stud duties most of the time which keeps them busy.


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## PPVallhunds

My box sizes for Breeding boxes = 14litre and Group boxes = 32litre


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## katiebml

Well I keep my males in groups. My males are quite friendly, also the ones who have bred. I have a group of 14 and a smaller group of 8. In the bigger group live males from 3 months to one year, the smaller group consist of males that are about 4 months old. 
There are related en non-related males in both groups and it works fine. 
Character and friendliness are part of my breeding plans, so maybe that's why they can live together. Non of my males live seperate.


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## raisin

it lightens my hear to hear that. My males are still below what I heard is the age that they start to fight, but are all incredibly friendly towards humans. I too am breeding for friendliness- so you think PPVallhunds, that this gives them a chance of living as a group? I don't breed mass numbers or anything so I do have time to keep an eye on them all for safety. I am breeding pets, very specifically, so they get the works toys-wise. wouldn't the lack of space and stimulation be a huge part in why most of the responses here say their boys fight?

I was reading an article on fancymice.info about keeping males together in pairs. It says that while it takes a bit extra, it can be done. Space and houses are the biggest factors from what I gather.


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## PPVallhunds

I don't believe it is something you can breed for no, I've kept bucks together in the past successfully but the males I had bred from them could not be housed together.

Mice don't need toys, all they need is to be able to express there natural behaviours, hiding, nest making, foraging, chewing ect. Back when I kept mine as pets they had bigger space and toys and treats and they acted no differently to the ones I have now.


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## PPVallhunds

Unless you never sleep and spend 24 hours a day watching your mice you can't watch them to prevent any fights that may break out. Even the loveliest male can turn on another buck you simply won't know if it will work untill it one day doesn't work, that could be as soon as you put them together or it could be after they have lived together for a year. Being friendly with humans means nothing to if he will be ok with other bucks.

Due to the risk and how fast a fight can break out and the injuries just a few seconds of a fight can cause in my opyion its just not worth it.


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## raisin

(this part is a bit off topic):
the "toys" I provide are climbing structures and things to hide in, wheels, hanging things to climb and tunnels. i like to fill up their space so the cage isn't barren- it also makes it more fun for me. I don't mean toy like a stuffed animal or a ball.
I have definitely observed a strong difference that these things create. in my science teacher's mice cages, there were no toys and the mice were very scraggly and sickly, and were eating babies (as i said i disagree with his methods). putting toys in there- literally anything- helped them a great deal. they look considerably less stressed. in my personal mice, when i am cleaning i put them in a cage with very few toys (just hide, food, bedding) and they climb all over the mesh lid, jump around and freak out a bit until i give them more to do. I also observed an increase in friendliness and cleverness in mice babies raised with some toys versus just the basics.

of course this could just be a personal bias. i haven't been doing this long enough to observe how such environmental factors change the likelihood of males fighting.


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## WoodWitch

Totally agree with PPVallhunds. Grouping males together works 100% of the time...until it doesn't!
Have a read: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=30874


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## PPVallhunds

all mine get are hay for bedding and something to chew on and that's it, no houses, no branches, no wheels, no tubes, no food bowl and there all calm friendly mice who never baby munch or bite. The same as the ones I kept and bred as pets who had all of the above. There's no harm in putting those things in but I found with my mice they realy didn't care or act any differently with them than without and as I keep more now than when I had them as pets anything to make cleaning quicker and save space is a plus for me.


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