# split from October litters



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Since Agoutigoo didn't get back to you re: flamepoints, I'll take a stab.

It is a point of contention in some circles whether true flamepoints are feasible. You need siamese that has very dark points and a very dark red in order to attempt it, and you may be better off using black-eyed siamese (ce/ch) rather than ruby-eyed (ch/ch). There are some folks who will tell you that you still couldn't do it, since the c-genes hit the red pigment so much harder than black pigment. What's more, there's not a standard for it with any club I've seen, so you'd have to build them from scratch and then also standardize them. O.O Not an easy task at all! I've seen some genetically flamepoint mice that don't look like anything much, and they're incredibly hard to photograph.

If you want Turkish Van coloring, you might be better off going at it from the pied direction. Using spotted mice and reds, you could with some difficulty produce a line that produces a reasonable percentage of pups with spotting in Turkish Van-like patterns.


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## SamOfChaos (Nov 29, 2015)

Colorpoint red in cats also dosen't look like much. Turkish van markings are pied markings in cats too (every vans marking looks a little diffrent, in size and position) so I would try it with that in mice too.


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## NexivRed (Nov 8, 2015)

Thank you for the replies. Last week I read a sort of "Genetics for Dummies" which I understood loads more than other web pages I'd found, and through that sort of discovered that red points would never be vivid because of how the genes work just like you've said.

I think your suggestion of using pied markings is brilliant, cos Turkish Vans don't really have points anyway. I don't yet have an idea of how I'd like the colour to be arranged on the mouse. I do really like the placement on the face you get with the Dutch mice with the white blaze down the forehead but would be awesome if the nose were also coloured. I wonder if if a dorsal stripe with spotting like you get in Papillon rabbits would be possible. I adore the red version of those!

What would be the right order to breed in? Markings first and then colour second? (assuming I start off with show type mice.) My aim would be as rich an auburn red as I could get.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Because red is dominant (assuming you have access to Ay), that part's easy. Spotting is recessive, though, so you may have some back-and-forth breeding ahead. You could do color first or pattern first, depending on whether you have access to pied already but not red. Personally, I'd do the color first, get that fairly well set in the line, and then start selecting for pattern. I don't think it makes much difference, but maybe Sarah would argue otherwise. She bred other colors into her dutch, so would know.

Here's what I'd do:
1) Start with a red buck and a chocolate, agouti, or cinnamon pied doe.
2) Breed those together and cull for ideally a red buck and three does of any color(s).
3) That quad will be carrying pied from their dam, but will be solid color. You can tell which ones are red by day three because the not-reds will have darker pigment.
4) Breed that quad when they're 8w of age. Really, get all three does pregnant and then split them up to litter in pairs or alone.
5) Cull those litters so as to keep the pieds. You'll mostly be culling out solid-colored dark-pigmented mice. Hopefully you'll be able to pick out the pied reds from the solid reds, but err on the side of caution. Make sure your litters don't go over 6 pups. Your stats on this are 1/16 will be pied red. But this is okay!
6) If you're lucky, you'll have a pied red buck in that batch. If not, maybe you'll get some pied red does. If you didn't get any pied reds, you can pair up the parents again. Ideally, you'll breed the pied red buck to any and all pied does, in order to get a reasonably-sized group of pied reds.
7) Breeding pied to pied, you can now pick for *just* the pied reds, and cull out the not-red pieds. Using dominant red, there will *always* be some that aren't red. If you use recessive red, this process gets longer (and harder), but you can eventually get them to breed true.
8) NOW, if you don't like the depth of color on your pied reds, you can skip number 7 and breed one of your pied does (red or not red) back to the red buck you bought to start with. This will produce some red and some not-red, but all will be carriers of pied. Breed a group of those carriers together (with at least one parent of the litter red) and you'll get more pieds again.
9) Once you have a good handle on the color, then you would start selecting for spotting that's closer to what you want. It sounds like you'll be going for a lot of white, but mice tend to get solid rumps that you'll want to breed out asap unless you want the base-of-tail spot that many Vans do have. Be lenient at first, and more strict as you're able to. Mix and match the different patches you get until you get a group that you're happy with.


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## NexivRed (Nov 8, 2015)

That is absolute solid gold advice, I can't thank you enough!! The project sounds amazingly fun and whilst I search for the show buck and dos I need to get started, I can actually begin practising with non show type in the meantime.

I've just paired a European fawn (so most likely dominant) with a black pied I think, as has a white band around his tail, unless this is just a fault like his tail tip is? And I have an agouti tan doe possibly also pied, but it's just her tail tip so again maybe just a fault? They've been paired too so their litter will give me the answer. I have a beige pied buck and doe though, so do have pied here.

In preparation for my project I'm going to need to create more enclosures. I'm gonna need five to get yo stage four, would that be right? Where is going to be the best place to look for my show types? Will I need to join the NMC before people will consider selling to me?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

NexivRed said:


> In preparation for my project I'm going to need to create more enclosures. I'm gonna need five to get yo stage four, would that be right? Where is going to be the best place to look for my show types? Will I need to join the NMC before people will consider selling to me?


I breed brokens for show and some time back thought I'd have a few red ones.I'm at stage 7 with them.I need to refine the markings to conform with the broken standard.There will be a few spare here and there and I would let you have some for your project without joining the NMC.You would need to collect from a show though which would mean travelling.Have a look at the show diary on the NMC websites to see if you could get to any.Pied reds don't have the same depth of colour as the selfs.A degree of colour intensity is lost in the pursuit of markings and they also get rather plump and stout .


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## NexivRed (Nov 8, 2015)

What a fantastic offer, thank you so much  I'm in Suffolk so the Royston shows are easily doable, and the Peterborough one. Do you go to either of those?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Always attend Peterborough.Not so certain on Royston but it's 99% certain that I would be able to get them there via Sarahy,Woodwitch or Cait even if I don't go in person.I'm very lucky to be close to helpful mousers


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## NexivRed (Nov 8, 2015)

Well this year is off to a good start for me! How exciting. Although I feel rather bad for hijacking this thread lol. Would it be bad to ask you if you had any pictures of your broken projects or your reds, or any show types for that matter! I can't get enough of looking at everyone's mice lol.

What would happen if I had a go at breeding satin in? What colours would be best avoided (dilutes I assume?) and how far would it set me back as in, how much would it undo?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I will take some photos and split this thread.You might be disappointed with the reality of red brokens compared to those in your minds eye.As the colour is dominant it shouldn't take to long to breed away from undesirable colours.Satin is a no for me because I want to show them in the marked section against other marked mice rather than satin.Satin does darken colour appearance though so if you wanted deeper orange mice it would help.


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## NexivRed (Nov 8, 2015)

Oh, not at all. I'm familiar with the yellow gene at its starting point, and after all, I need something to work on after you've done all the graft getting the right genes in place  I'm very much looking forward to working on colour as well as markings. If I wished to darken the colour would I be best off getting a chocolate buck or a chocolate doe? And I suppose if I wanted to introduce satin he or she should also carry it.

Thank you, I look forward to the eye candy!


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

These are show quality fawns









and the reds
















The brokens argente and agouti








and the red pied made from combining varieties.I kept the red pied buck with the most white from the previous litters and mated him back to his sister the heavier red pied in the picture and an unrelated agouti broken doe.Both are pregnant


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## NexivRed (Nov 8, 2015)

Oh my gosh they're stunning! Those ears! Those reds! The pieds have a lot more saturation than I was expecting to be honest. I just love those brokens, they seem so characterful. Really beautiful mice there, that pied buck's shape is awesome. He almost looks buff lol. I'm in love with the broken dead centre. Such fantastic type, I can't wait to work with show quality mice.


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