# cross contamination via shows,discuss.



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

So people have strong opinions on this, lets share them.What we've seen,what should be done,what can be done.NO personal slagging or naming of venues,it can and does happen anywhere.As I judge I've come across a few ill mice on the show bench.If it is obvious through the cage bars I don't handle ,just disqualify.If I've handled the animal only to find out that it has rasping breathing or dirty vent I disinfect my hands with gel I bring with me and disqualify.I write on the cagel label why it has been disqualified i.e parasites,poorly.It doesn't put me off of exhibiting myself,I've never had a mouse come home poorly and I treat for parasites as a precaution prior to returning them to their cage.I do not quarantine them and will not be doing so in future.I showed dogs briefly and was more worried about that than rodent showing,I worried constantly that my flat faced dogs would come into contact with kennel cough and their health be badly affected.I am quite concerned about my rabbits but I don't yet know the pitfalls of taking rabbits to shows in terms of health.At some European shows a different pair of latex gloves is worn for each exhibit but this imo is to time consuming and laborious.Generally in the U.K we are more relaxed about the potential of cross contamination at shows.I'm not much stressed on quarantine myself either.


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## ekimsivad (Sep 20, 2011)

Sarah,

I agree with you in that over the past twenty odd years of exhibiting my mice at shows up and down the country, I have never brought anything nasty back with my mice. I think it is sensible to treat for parasites just as a precaution but that is as far as I would go.

My experience as a judge was again very similar to yourself, if I had any concerns about the health of an exhibit I would disqualify it and have it removed from the table (ideally the show hall). Bacterial hand gel and plenty of wipes and tissues are an essential part of a judges kit as far as I am concerned.

I have bred and exhibited pedigree cats for many years as well as all the other rodent species. I feel that perhaps the mouse fancy is the one where I have always had the most confidence that my stock will return home free of anything nasty. Long may that be the case!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I have brought animals to shows, and will do so in the future. I know there is a risk, but in the US shows have quarantine periods before them and animals are health checked at the door, before they are allowed to enter. I will happily take my animals to a professionally conducted show where the health check is thorough and obviously ill animals are not regularly allowed in. If an ill animals is encountered on occasion, and dealt with appropriately so that members of the public aren't potentially spreading things around, I am ok with that.

I will not bring animals to events that are not run professionally (not set up specifically as a show, but as a selling event with a poorly run show on the side that most of the vendors don't even have animals entered in), and regularly have obviously ill animals allowed in (where the public handle many of the animals (including the ill ones) and then move on around the room handling and touching other people's animals and things.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

How does the quarantine before a show operate,how is it policed Stina?Now you come to mention it and I'd forgotten,last year when myself,sarahy and WoodWitch ran our first show a few people turned up with non exhibition mice and traded them in the show hall and we have decided that we don't think this is paticularly desirable and would prefer it if people didn't use our hall to trade pet mice(as opposed to setting people up with quality starter stock).I think a few new people were disappointed,thinking they had got exhibition type mice.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

The quarantine is generally pretty much a good faith thing. People are asked not to bring any new rodents into their home or to handle rodents elsewhere without showering and changing before handling your own for the quarantine period. Also if any of your animals become ill during that period you are expected not to bring any at all. The only way it ends up enforced/policed is if someone happens to slip up and admit having broken quarantine.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

ah right,a bit like kennel cough at dog shows then,people are expected not to attend.It's hard to believe people don't practice common sense.Parasites can be missed but hunched sick looking animals would be obvious to all you would think.Then again it's fairly common on here for pics of poorly looking animals with oblivious owners to appear.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Hmmm I give shots here for kennel cough, is it not given overseas?

And yes, I would feel fairly safe at most santioned well organised shows. I would still keep my mice seperate for 2 weeks, but I would not stress it too much. But since I have never been to a show, I will not bring anything with me to the first few. For one thing I only have mice from other breeders or just one generation removed so I don't feel fair showing them quite yet!


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I think it's acceptable to show mice in the first generation.Yes vaccination is available for kennel cough these days,I'm well out of the loop now though so it's not of concern to me.I didn't enjoy the dog showing like I do the mice although I made some long lasting good friends from it.


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## kellyt (Nov 23, 2011)

I've been to shows in Europe with my guinea pigs and do prefer how they work, as each animal is booked in it is health checked by specifically assigned people. Any sign of illness mites etc and it is refused entry into the hall. However every animal is exhibited by the owner so you can't hide.

Here with guinea pigs and rabbits it's just trust in the fanciers that they aren't exhibiting I'll animals or have problems with their stock but there are still those out there that will show regardless.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

the kennel cough vaccine isn't 100% effective.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I never bother with the kennel cough vaccine. My beagles get all their other vaccinations but the kennel cough one is a big waste of money. The kennel to which I take them when I go away doesn't insist on it because it doesn't protect the dog from kennel cough.

I have taken a mouse to a show which was thrown off for being very, very sick. I thoroughly check all stock every day for a week before leaving and lastly on the morning of the show. This mouse was absolutely fine when I left in the morning, but by the time the judge got it out it was shivering, hunched and looked just about on death's door. I am very careful, but this does go to show that no matter how careful an exhibitor is, sick mice can still make it to a show.

As well as the health check, I treat mine for parasites before I go and have never brought parasites back.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I also treat for parasites before a show during quarantine, and after a show.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

kellyt said:


> I've been to shows in Europe with my guinea pigs and do prefer how they work, as each animal is booked in it is health checked by specifically assigned people. Any sign of illness mites etc and it is refused entry into the hall. However every animal is exhibited by the owner so you can't hide


Does it extend the day by much,how much earlier do you need to arrive?Are there many entries to examine or a handful and how many checkers in relation to numbers of exhibits are there? I'm interested.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

SarahY said:


> I never bother with the kennel cough vaccine. My beagles get all their other vaccinations but the kennel cough one is a big waste of money. The kennel to which I take them when I go away doesn't insist on it because it doesn't protect the dog from kennel cough.


you are talking about pets though.If you show you may have pups and nursing bitches to consider and therefore it's wise to cover all options.Normal adult dogs will recover but pups may be very poorly or die.Obviously the ideal is for dogs that have been exposed to the risk not to be at shows but people are selfish.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes, of course! I would certainly vaccinate puppies and nursing bitches against kennel cough, just don't see the point in vaccinating healthy, adult dogs


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

no,neither would I although there is an extra risk to my dogs,I'd be very worried if they caught it .That said when my mum did dog rescue she had it a few times.I just didn't visit with the dogs,we never got any cross contamination.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes indeed, I keep a fairly long nosed breed not known for respiratory problems. If I kept flat faced breeds the vaccine would probably seem more important to me.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I think it's silly that I'm required to get rabies vaccines for my INDOOR ONLY cats. . . :| 
My vet likes to shove it in my face that it needs to get done, any time I go in for anything. But I'm going to stall as long as possible, because I just don't see a need to pay money for something that's going to do me absolutely no good.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Rhasputin said:


> I think it's silly that I'm required to get rabies vaccines for my INDOOR ONLY cats. . . :|
> My vet likes to shove it in my face that it needs to get done, any time I go in for anything. But I'm going to stall as long as possible, because I just don't see a need to pay money for something that's going to do me absolutely no good.


What kills me is I need a rabies vaccine for my two elderly INDOOR ferrets! Oy!


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Well you just never know when a rabid raccoon is going to get into your ferret cage! :|


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## kellyt (Nov 23, 2011)

SarahC said:


> kellyt said:
> 
> 
> > I've been to shows in Europe with my guinea pigs and do prefer how they work, as each animal is booked in it is health checked by specifically assigned people. Any sign of illness mites etc and it is refused entry into the hall. However every animal is exhibited by the owner so you can't hide
> ...


Well the show I go to is in Holland not far from the German border and is visited by people from Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Czech maybe even further so numbers are probably 300 plus. If I remember rightly there were 2 or 3 people checking and they did it as people were turning up. It didnt seem to add much extra time as they were checked next to the place where the entry paperwork was collected. I can of course put you in contact with the lady that organises the show and she could give you more information.

What would it take to check a single mouse if you know what you are looking for 2 maybe 3 minutes tops?


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## mouselover01 (Nov 1, 2011)

I USUALLY don't pay for my rabies vaccines for my cats WHEN I get them.

My cats are indoors only. I'm not worried about the cops/ac knocking on my door asking if my cats are vaccinated.

Also, when I get the vaccines, i go to free clinics. OR, when I pay, I go to discount clinics $5.00-$20 max.

But, since I travel a lot, my dogs are all 100% vaccinated for everything. I'd prefer not to do it, but crossing state lines, certain vaccines are required in certain states (parvo is required in some states, distemper in others), so I keep that all up to date.

I use Banfield, so it's all included in the plan.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

We foster dogs and cats, and because of the constant threat of contamination (because fosters cannot be quarantined), we vaccinate against anything and everything. The kennel cough vaccine once kept my dog from catching it from our very very ill foster dog. While the foster dog made it, she was extremely ill for a while.

As far as vaccinating indoor cats, I only vaccinate my indoor cats against rabies. We vaccinate our indoor/outdoor cat against everything and its cousin, in part because he could infect the other cats, including our foster kittens who are too young to be vaccinated. Vaccinating indoor cats against rabies is simply because every animal which can be vaccinated against such a terrible disease must be. I have heard far, far too many stories of cats and even ferrets escaping and never returning. That's an animal which can now catch rabies from wild animals and transmit it to humans. That's entirely unacceptable.

As for cross contamination at shows, I'm used to chicken shows, where cross contamination is a HUGE issue. It's not that people bring obviously ill animals. It's that many animals do not appear ill until after they've been contagious for a while. Even shows that are breed-specific to breeds that are largely indoors (like Seramas) have major disease issues. There are just so many things that they can catch, because there are just so many parasites and diseases. As far as mice, I'm undecided. I think because it's so hard to get quality stock in the US, I wouldn't want to do absolutely anything that could possibly compromise the stock I have.


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## mouselover01 (Nov 1, 2011)

Aren't you afraid your indoor/outdoor cat will be killed by a car, fed poison, stolen, etc??

When I was a kid I knew kids who set an outdoor cat on fire and threw it off a bridge. They were arrested thankfully when the cops found the video tape and the cat, that surprisingly survived, was euthanized. His name was smoky.

When I was a kid, I had an outdoor cat that was stolen twice and once saw being thrown over a bridge on a highway, and even though my mom didn't like cats, she allowed her to stay inside after that. (I was 10?).

Since then, my cats are never allowed outside. I made sure all the doors to my house are like "airlock" doors, if you open one exterior door, if something gets out, it can't get out of the house because of a porch or another door.

Plus, my cats are locked on the top floors of my house so they'd have to get out of those, out of the downstairs doors, and out of a porch door to escape. Phew!! (though when I used to live in an apartment, they would run out the apartment door any chance they got!).

Speaking of ferrets, when my friend went on vacation, I found his ferret roaming the streets!! Scary!


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

What gets me is my vet *won't* give Rydag, my wolfdog the rabies vaccine. I mentioned one time that he looked so much like his father, and we got into a conversation about his lineage. The vaccine isn't approved for wolf-dogs. Even though genetically you couldn't tell the difference between a wolf and dog, aside from a few markers...maybe. He can get the other vaccines, but not the rabies? what's that about? I'd like to have him protected.

That's the way it was with finches too. The birds just don't let it on that they are sick until it's almost too late to even save them.
With mice there is less pressure, because you can see it coming. Plus I do have a quarantine spot, so the only mice I will take to a show will be ones that won't be devastating to loose. It might sound harsh, but I'm not willing to risk a few of them.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Shadowrunner: he probably wouldn't be protected. That's why it's not been approved, even though many states would LOVE to eradicate rabies in wolves. It honestly just doesn't work for some reason.

mouselover01: Thanks for all that concern there. I am also very pro-indoor-only cats. The problem with Bosie is that he was not an indoor-only cat when we got him. And trying to keep him indoor-only for nine months was the most miserable thing. We live in a neighborhood with lots of other neutered cats, and I feel that the quality of his life is more important.


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## mouselover01 (Nov 1, 2011)

Yeah, my cat was like that too. He was a tom cat before i got him from the shelter. He was a discount kitty 

To each his/her own


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

The issue I have with a lot of vaccinations is that most are proven effective for far longer then the recommended and the vaccines themselves carry a lot of risk. There is NO need for the dog rabies vaccine to be given any more then once every 7 years or so (its been shown to be produce acceptable titer levels for at least that long)...and the 1 and 3 year vaccines are identical...they just charge more for the 3 year.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

We are not charged more for our three-year vaccine, and I feel that the majority of the risks associated with vaccines are not that large when compared to the risk of failing to vaccinate. I understand that there are a lot of individuals who have very strong opinions about vaccinations, and I am one of them. 
Also, many people do not bring their animals in at exactly when they should. For that reason, most vaccinations are recommended or even required to be repeated more frequently than is medically necessary, because the alternative is that they lapse when someone isn't able to make it to the vet's for a while. Because a lapse in some vaccinations is dangerous, overlapping protection from a previous vaccine is suggested. 
Certainly, if your animal has no significant risk from disease, there is no need to vaccinate. But if the animal in question is at risk, failure to vaccinate is often considered a form of neglect. Several of the animals we have fostered entered the Shelter due to medical neglect by their previous owners. One of those individuals is now facing a felony charge.


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## mouselover01 (Nov 1, 2011)

A good way to know if you're over vaccinating your pets, is to do titers testing for all the vaccines (with the exception of rabies because it's the law)

It's only recommended to give parvo/distemper once every 3 years now at my vet, which I'm happy about.

I personally believe that, over vaccinating can cause more damage than help for the normal family.

I had a fully vaccinated puppy get parvo and die after 4 days in intensive care at the vet.

At that time, I had a 4 lb dog around 2 years old that was given one vaccinated for parvo at 9 months old and never brought back for boosters. She was sleeping in the same bed and who was around the puppy when she was getting sick. Then, later that day, I freaked when I found out my pup had parvo. We kept them separate after that, but if she was going to get it, she was going to get it. She was fine, no symptoms, nothing, thank god. But she had never even had all the vaccines for parvo and even if she did, she was past the re-vaccinate time and she was immune to it.

If I didn't travel so much, and I was just someone who stayed home I wouldn't vaccinate.

If I had the money, I'd titer.

But I go to dog shows, parks, dog training classes, WD training, camping, hiking, etc so they are exposed to everything.

The one thing I did turn down for my small dog, was lepto.

S/N is also a big issue.

Arm yourself with your own knowledge, because you can't trust all vets to be honest or know all the up to date info on everything unfortunately!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Adult dogs are generally immune to parvo regardless whether they were vaccinated as puppies or not. It is only puppies that are vulnerable to it, and as such, only puppies that need the vaccination. I am NOT anti-vaccination...I am anti-OVER vaccination. You are less likely to have harm caused by not vaccinating within the "recommended" time period then by vaccinating when its not needed. Like I said, vaccinations are normally effective MUCH longer then the "recommended" revac schedules. If vets are worried about dogs not having enough antibodies from previous vaccinations, they can always recommend titers....they just don't. The only vaccine I can think of off the top of my head that isn't effective over an extended period, is bordatella...which isn't very effective to start with (its only effective against certain strains...so if the dog is exposed to any uncovered strains, it will be infected).


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## mouselover01 (Nov 1, 2011)

and some vets don't even know what titers are! Or even offer them! Very frustrating.


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

I disagree with over vaccinating, but vaccines for things like rabies are a necessity, IMO. I do think that over-vaccinating can cause issues.

...I had a huge post but it went away. Sad.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Yes, rabies is a necessity for animals that go outdoors....but when it has been PROVEN to be effective for at LEAST 7 years in dogs (once initial protection is established).....every 1 or 3 years is overvaccination.


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