# new here



## Peachpit

Hi I am new here. I am looking for some opinions about if my two mice are pregnant, the one was fat to begin with ( though she ate the same food as my other two) and the other one went from 49 g to 62 g in only a few days :/


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## Fantasia Mousery

Hi, and welcome. 

Can't tell if the "fat" one is pregnant without a photo. But the second one definitely sounds like she is.


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## Peachpit

http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/Peach ... t=3&page=1

If you go to this page you should be able to see them both As well as the little male "Zipper"( grey and white). they both gained a lot of weight in the last few days but the brown one "big mama" was already over weight to begin with, and the tri coloured female " lily" has gained a lot of weight.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Big Mama just looks fat to me, and I could be wrong, but she also looks brindle, and that could be the cause for her obesity. Lily looks rounder, so that looks more like a baby bump to me. Keep in mind, on both of them you might want to wait and see what others say, because I really suck at determining pregnancies early on.

As far as color, I thought I would comment. Big Mama (as I already mentioned) looks either heavily marked brindle or agouti self. Lily is not tricolor, she is actually dove piebald tan; it is a common mistake to call a pied tan a tricolor.  Zipper looks like an agouti variegated, a very cute on too, and I love his name!

Oh yes, and welcome to the forum!


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## Peachpit

Thank you for your comment twitching whiskers, are brindles prone to being over weight on normal food ? if so why? that is pretty cool about lily I have never heard a dove piebald tan, I just know she is pretty. LOL thanks Zipper was named that because he is really fast hahahaha. As for big mama she is definitely fat but I was pondering her being pregnant to because when she stretches or climbs you can see the same bump things like in the picture of lily climbing over the container side. Zipper is very cute and I shall post a better picture of him probably tonight, also I will see if I can find get a picture of big mama's bumps


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## blackbirdmice

Hello!
To answer your question, many brindles have a gene that causes them to be obese, it doesn't matter what you feed them, they will always be little chunkers. If big mama was in with zipper she could very well be pregnant, but I guess you will know soon enough! Do you think you bought them pregnant or did you purposely breed them because if you purposely bred them and they bred right away the babies would be due 18-21 days from the first time they were introduced. Good luck with the litters if they truly are pregnant, I can't wait to see pictures!


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## Peachpit

well I was trying to breed them on purpose BUT! they had been in with the male for about 6 weeks :/ and he was mating like crazy with both of them. I figured they were maybe to old to breed :/ but now I don't know. I also have been weighing them every 3 days, so I have been tracking the weight gain. I posted the other pictures of big mama and zipper  (they all lived together, until this last week when I separated them because lily got bigger and I didn't want to mix up any litters if both girls are pregnant and obvious reasons for zipper and my girls health) NOTE: Zipper hasn't been mating with lily for over two weeks now, but ! he has continued to try and mate with big mama this past week.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

If he's been with them for 6 weeks, they are probably both pregnant. How old are the does? Many breeders won't breed a doe for the first time if she is over 8 months.

As for colors, if you have bred both does to the variegated buck, you will have some variegated babies as it is a dominant gene. You will also get tan from Lily, as tan is dominant too. If big mama is indeed brindle, you will get brindle babies, so then you will know if she is brindle or not. If she is not brindle, then I'd say she looks like an agouti self. This is, if the does are even pregnant. :lol:


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## Peachpit

Well lily is about I believe 5-6 months old, big mama I am not 100% sure of age , though I think she is about the same age as lily. I was also separating because I have a feeling there would be trouble in paradise if I left her with lily when they had babies, Big mama is a bully and is the big honcho -_- if she wants something and the other two wont give it to her she will fight them. Unfortunately she killed two other girls that had been living with them,  one was silky looking and the other one was white with orange blotches I will post pictures of them to.


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## Peachpit

http://s1315.photobucket.com/


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Wow, she killed other does? I have never heard of that before, are you 100% sure she is a doe? That kind of behavior would make a lot more sense if it was a buck.

That link just took me straight to photo buckets login page.


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## Peachpit

hmmm weird?... wonder why it wont let you see them. she is definitely a girl. she kept attacking them and they ended up I guess dying from heart attacks or something. there wasn't a lot of blood so I don't know what else could have happened. lily always seems to be submissive where as the other two were not. they would get along all day and then when I was sleeping at night I would be woken from loud squeaks and I would find them fighting. 

http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/Peach ... t=3&page=1 
Try this link and if it doesn't work again please let me know again.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

That's really quite odd, I wonder if they could have had some underlying health problems... did they die around the same time?

I can see the pictures now.  The silky mouse was probably satin.


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## Peachpit

one died and the next one died only 4 days later 
:/ poor girls


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## TwitchingWhiskers

That could very well be some kind of contagious disease then. Did they exhibit any symptoms that you know of, soon before death?


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## Peachpit

other than fighting, they all were fine. they never showed any symptoms, that I was aware of


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## Peachpit

lily was 62 g on may 1st when I joined the forum, and I just weighed her and she is 67 g lol


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Sounds pregnant to me.


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## Frizzle

Hi Peachpit, welcome to the forum!

Zipper is adorable! I just wanted to add in that variegated is a lethal gene when bred to itself, and you will end up with anemic bubs that will need to be bumped off. Just an fyi if its a variety you're interested in. Here is a link to a thread from a while back that shows you what it looks like: http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10720&hilit=varigated You won't have to worry about it with this X, but if you breed them back to each other you will.

Have you been able to figure out what you're litters will yield?


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## Peachpit

This is my first ever breeding of my mice and I don't know any terms yet or color variations but thank you for the information I will have to remember that. I hope I don't seem silly for asking this question but reading some posts on here and else where I read that people are breeding daddy mouse with his baby and such. What is okay to breed together ? father daughter, mother son, brother sister ? please clear this up for me lol. if you read back on this thread .. post thing.. twitching whiskers made a guess as to what my girls were, I really don't know what variation they would be called. what is your opinion ?


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## Frizzle

Well, I think Big Momma is an agouti self, however she could just as easily be an under-marked brindle. That first picture made her look a little sooty. Try taking pictures near a natural light to demonstrate a more natural color, and don't zoom in close, blurryness makes IDing hard. You did improve with the other pics.  I would especially like to see Lily's fur in natural light, the ones you have make her look ticked (especially the yellowed pictures), which wouldn't be the case if she was dove. She is also "tan," regarding her orangeish belly. Zipper looks variegated agouti to me as well.

While Lily & Zipper are marked, these markings are not caused by the same gene. Lily is probably pied (s/s) whereas Zipper is probably variegated (W/w). This means 50% of your litter will be variegated (W/w). Unless Zipper carries the pied gene (S/s) to match Lily, your other 50% of the litter will be selfs. As to color, you will definitely get agouti. Other colors will depend on what recessives Lily & Zipper have that match up. Since Lily's tan belly is dominant, about 50% of your babies will end up with tan bellies, too (assuming she has 1 copy of the gene).

Zipper to Big Momma would result in about 50% variegated, 50% selfs, color agouti, other colors again depending on matching recessives.

*I realized I started to go in a little bit in depth about the genetics, do you understand how dominant and recessive genes work?


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## Peachpit

I will try to get some natural light pictures of them tomorrow, although maybe not possible with lily as I changed the main cages bedding tonight and she was laying down a lot and actually seemed to fall asleep while I was changing the bedding ? maybe early labour???  I am hopeful and a little nervous lol. I understand most of what you said except what does s/s and w/w mean ?. I have looked into genetics before so I understand how recessive and dominant genes work for the mot part.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

To learn the basics about genetics and those letters, I recommend this page, http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genet ... ssary.html. That whole site is very good for learning genetics, everything is very well explained and easy to understand. Don't read everything all at once and cram your mind full though, you might get really confused! :lol:


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## Peachpit

Thank you for that page. I just posted on my photo bucket thing new pictures of big mama and lily in natural light , though big mama kept trying to get away so I didn't get many photos lol

http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/Peach ... t=3&page=1


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## Frizzle

Good job! I'd say Lily is definitely a pied dove tan.

You might want to also check out the list of codes/corresponding colors here.
http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=52

When writing out their genetic code, people usually write it in a line in this order: A, B, C, D, P, S, W
The "A" is where the base for agouti and black are controlled. A is dominant, and will yield you agouti, but if you have a/a you will get black.
a^t is what we write for tans. It is a dominant gene, so you only need one copy.
B controls chocolate/brown, a capital B means there is no color change (called a dilution)
C controls albinism, and if your mice is c/c it means you have an albino. Albinism "hides" the other colors.
D controls blue, a capital D means there is no color change (called a dilution)
P controls the "pink eye dilution." Meaning if you have an agouti mouse "A/*" who is also p/p, the pink eye dilution changes the mouse's eyes to pink, and fades the coat to a different color.
S controls a type of spotting. It is recessive, and if your mouse is S/S or S/s it will have a solid coat. When you get two copies of s/s, then your mouse will have various amounts of white spotting, which can range from an entirely white mouse, to one that barely shows it at all.
W controls variegated. This is that lethal gene, so any adult variegateds you run into have to be W/w.
* means we only know one copy of the Locus.

Those were just the basics pertaining to your mice, in reality, most of these "Locus" or areas have other things that can be toggled. Like how you have your agouti & black control on the A locus, but you also have the a^t (tan) control there as well.

Therefore, Lily's code would be
a^t/* B/* C/* D/* p/p s/s w/w

Assuming Big Momma is an agouti self:
A/* B/* C/* D/* P/* S/* w/w

Zipper is an agouti variegated:
A/* B/* C/* D/* P/* S/* W/w

So if you look up/down the colums, I hope this gives you a visual to see where S and W are. I hope I wrote everything right, its been a while since I tried to teach anyone anything.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

They definitely look pregnant now, they have grown a lot. Expect babies very soon.

Yes, and I agree with how Frizzle genotyped your mice. Good work Frizzle, I wouldn't have bothered typing all that up. :lol:


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## Peachpit

I am getting excited. Lily is doing a lot of stretching, moving about a lot( kind of acting like she doesn't look very comfy). Also her stomach has a weird kind of lump sticking out like her bump is being tightened a lot ( maybe contractions?)  Oh as well as licking and fussing over her tummy  . I will keep a quiet sneaky eye on her tonight.


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## Peachpit

Hooray  lily has little ones now  I can confirm 3 little pups, waiting to know if there are more


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## Frizzle

Cool! Were you able to see if you had any pink eyed bubs?


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## Peachpit

so far all of them have black eyes, unfortunately I had a disaster early this morning, My little brat 3 year old got in the mouse room and was playing with the adult mice  she couldn't catch big mama, and couldn't catch lily, but she ended up putting zipper into the cage with lily and the babies  I don't think he was in there for longer than 2 mins, I woke up and heard her in there and I went and snatched him out. Needless to say my kid is grounded for the whole day to her bed . After I cleaned up the mouse room and made sure everyone was okay and everything was locked back up I snapped a pic of babies I removed two dead ones that looked like they had been dead all night.there are still 3 alive and lily still looks like she is still kind of pregnant ? Posting pictures on photo bucket of new babies- all three seem to have milk bellies so that is good news


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## Peachpit

while lily went for a run in her ball I snapped a picture of the new babies Looks like 2 boys and a girl. but I could be wrong

http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/Peach ... t=3&page=1


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Congrats! Did you cull down, or was it really just that small of a litter?


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## Peachpit

lily still looks like she has some left to birth ? originally there were 5 babies in the nest but I had to remove 2 that were in the bottom of the nest they were dead. they look like they suffocated. I am sad that they were dead but my two little snakes got to eat and I didn't have to kill any myself for it. The two dead looked like girls.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

They don't usually suffocate, pinks are used to being in a pile. They were probably stillborn, stillborns happen once and a while.


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## Peachpit

Okay, I thought maybe when mama was birthing the others she laid on them or something. I had a cat do that once to a litter of kittens. -_-
when they get a little bigger I will post some pictures to see if I got the sex's right lol. Is it possible for a mouse to birth some of the babies and still have more in there to birth hours later?


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I don't think I've ever had that happen, but maybe someone else has. Even if they did do it I wouldn't know because they usually birth at night and I am not there to disturb them.


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## Frizzle

Another thought, that was a fair bit of blood in the nest (I'm unsure how much is normal?), it could be Lily ate some of the other babies, which is why she looks chunky still.


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## Peachpit

could be, I just figured that it was normal. but this is my first litter so *shrugs* I don't know either


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## Peachpit

I will be posting pictures of the babies every day, on my photo bucket page 
http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/Peach ... t=3&page=1
I also have up pictures to sex the babies looking for opinions  I looked and I think it is 2 boys 1 girl


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## Frizzle

1st one, I can't tell. :? 
2nd, Boy.
3rd one, Girl.

Good to see they have such big milk bellies!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I'm going by the titles under each picture, you said baby 1, baby 2 and baby 3.
Baby one = doe
Baby two = buck
Baby three = buck

Also, they look nice and chubby with full milk bellies, you must be supplementing mum well.


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## Peachpit

I have been giving her scrambled eggs and oatmeal but how do u make it with milk??. sounds like I guessed their sexes right then? I guess I will see when they get a little bigger. Lily is such a good mama they always have a full milk belly and seem to be doing great


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## Frizzle

TwitchingWhiskers said:


> I'm going by the titles under each picture, you said baby 1, baby 2 and baby 3.
> Baby one = doe
> Baby two = buck
> Baby three = buck
> 
> Also, they look nice and chubby with full milk bellies, you must be supplementing mum well.


Oops, I didn't notice they had titles! Good call TW!

Baby one: Doe
Baby two: Buck
Baby three: I'm still unsure


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## Seafolly

Because it's fun:

Baby 1: Doe
Baby 2: Buck
Baby 3: Buck


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Peachpit said:


> I have been giving her scrambled eggs and oatmeal but how do u make it with milk??. sounds like I guessed their sexes right then? I guess I will see when they get a little bigger. Lily is such a good mama they always have a full milk belly and seem to be doing great


I usually just get a bottle cap, put dry oats in and then pour in some milk.


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## Peachpit

Thanks I will try it  two of the babies seem like they are turning darker on their backs just very slightly.  and the other one has none at all  lol so I guess I will just have to wait excitedly to see what they are going to look like


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## TwitchingWhiskers

That would be their pigment coming in. I wouldn't be surprised if they were black, because mum is dove which is black diluted with the pink eye gene. However, they could be anything; we'll just have to wait and see.


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## Peachpit

oh I also forgot to say that big mama is starting to behave the same as lily did the day she started labour, so here is crossing my fingers and hoping big mama is not just fooling me hahaha, and darn I am out of oatmeal lol but I did buy kitten food today


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I hope you get another small litter!


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## Peachpit

BTW No one got around to answering my way earlier question. what is okay to breed when it comes to being related ? mother +son, father+ daughter, brother + sister, ect .?


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Okay, inbreeding.

Think of inbreeding as, the recessive genes will be strengthened. Whether they are good or bad, you are strengthening them by breeding family together. Inbreeding is very successfully practiced by many breeders, and is a great tool to get recessives to show up quickly. It really also boils down to the health of the animals you are breeding; if you breed healthy animals, whether they are related or not, you should have good outcome.


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## Peachpit

Okay thank you, some one had once mentioned to me that breeding mother and son was a no no, but I guess that was her opinion and not fact lol. so no babies this morning from big mama but she is still acting kind of funny?. will a male mouse mate with a pregnant mouse any way ? or leave her be until she gives birth ? I am unsure of if big mama is even pregnant -_- darn fat mouse. on another note: I posted this mornings pictures on lily's babies


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## Frizzle

Here's a link to another thread that mentions it. But yes, so long as you are in control of the breeding, inbreeding can be a great tool. Its when people let their mice run rampant together, with no selective breeding/management if bad health problems crop up that you have a problem.
http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13487&hilit=Inbreeding

You could try separating Big Momma from Zipper for a while. In a couple weeks re-introduce them, sometimes it seems like the dominant doe can bully the buck into a lower position. Stir things up! Just like humans, obese mice can have problems conceiving, so maybe that's a factor as well? If she doesn't conceive, I'd suggest its a good thing. If she was the culprit behind the two other mice's deaths, is fat, an unknown age, it's maybe not a good idea to be breeding her in the first place. While temperament can be a learn thing, some of it is hereditary, which is why a lot/most breeders here won't breed aggressive mice.


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## Peachpit

Big mama is already separated from zipper, I did that when the girls weight shot up fast, I figured they were pregnant. I don't want to breed and pass on aggressiveness, The babies from lily were going to be pets, and most from big mama were going to be feeders ( I own 3 snakes), I am a little torn about what to do because big mama is friendly and lets me handle her, but occasionally she is the bully with other mice :/


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Frizzle said:


> You could try separating Big Momma from Zipper for a while. In a couple weeks re-introduce them, sometimes it seems like the dominant doe can bully the buck into a lower position. Stir things up! Just like humans, obese mice can have problems conceiving, so maybe that's a factor as well? If she doesn't conceive, I'd suggest its a good thing. If she was the culprit behind the two other mice's deaths, is fat, an unknown age, it's maybe not a good idea to be breeding her in the first place. While temperament can be a learn thing, some of it is hereditary, which is why a lot/most breeders here won't breed aggressive mice.


Agreed. I just recently mad the mistake of breeding a buck who bites (humans, so maybe not exactly your issue), and his son has inherited the behavior. The son never saw his dad once, and non of his sisters/mom bite, so he couldn't have learned it from anyone. Now I have to go out of my way to avoid breeding this buck (son), which was my next step for the line, and keep him really only as a last resort. So listen to this! Don't make the mistake I did.


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## Peachpit

posted todays pictures of the little cuties
http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/Peach ... t=3&page=1


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## Frizzle

Nice to see you have some markings coming in! And what little fatties, good job!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Oh they look great! That little one with the heads spot thing might be a heavily marked variegated, I get them in every variegated litter. Anyway, very nice babies, keep the photos coming.


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## Peachpit

thanks and I definitely will keep them coming I take pictures in the morning and also in the evening as well as weigh them in the morning 
Big mama is still acting weird, but I don't know what to think any more. How long can a mouse be in labour before they start giving birth to the babies ?


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## TwitchingWhiskers

She probably hasn't been in labor all this time, she is probably just preparing for the babies to come.


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## Peachpit

maybe. I am starting to think she is just fat hahahahaha. newest pictures are up of the babies today  they have a very light fuzz starting.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Looking good as usual. If that white one never develops any pigment she is probably a BEW. Those are mice with the genetics to be piebald and variegated, which just wipes out all spotting; genotype s/s W/w. As for the others, I would say either pied of variegated, when belly color comes in, check for big stripes or diamond shaped white markings, if they have those they are likely over marked variegateds.


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## Peachpit

new pictures were put up today . when I joined this forum big mama was 64 g .. I weighed her last night and she is 80 g. O.O if she is not carrying babies she is going on a diet lol


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I definitely would not recommend putting her on a diet. Diets do not work for mice and the best thing you can do is cut back on fatty seeds and nuts and give them a saucer or wheel. A mouse's food supply should never be limited, because their natural eating pattern is to take a small amount of food very often, and they need a constant supply or else they will be starved. Unlike a dog for instance, where they can be limited, because they will eat a large amount only a couple times per day. Also, if she is brindle, then she will probably be fat forever, despite your efforts.

As for her very vast weight gain, she sounds pregnant too me, but you will really just have to wait and see. My does usually only get to about 60-65g when they are pregnant, so your doe is probably pregnant and overweight.


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## Peachpit

well by diet I didn't mean take away her food or anything I just meant changing her over to food with no fatty seeds and stuff and no treats :/. and her weight is now at 84g. so ya probably pregnant but geez how much bigger is she going to go ? lol. I posted this mornings pictures of lily's babies. As of this morning with the white baby I can see 3-4 itty bitty spots of grey or black fur not very big at all, but you can see one right beside his ear in the picture.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Wow, 84g that is one big mouse. The babies are so chubby! You are doing a great job with them.  As for the white one, I can't see any black spots, but if you say they are really small (like freckles), then he might be a lightly marked variegated.


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## Peachpit

today she is 86g .. yes very big mouse. and I will be posting a picture of both big ! mama and the others as well as a close up of the little white male


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Well you picked the right name for her! :lol: Ahaha.


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## Peachpit

sooo I have some great news big mama is now giving birth to her litter and so far there are 6! babies ( from what I saw when I sneaked a peek )figures it happened shortly after my last post, Interesting how it is happening on mothers day hahahaha. now I posted the earlier pictures I mentioned.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I see the small spots by his ears. Good luck with Big Mama's litter, she better not have many more! I hope you don't have too many to cull!


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## Peachpit

soo big mama has had I believe 12 babies, none are still born all are well. not sure if there are any more on the way. I am thinking about maybe fostering some to lily seeing as she only has 3 and she is a great mama posting pictures in about 2 mins of the huge litter


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## Peachpit

So update time. Big mama and babies are still doing great but I ended up fostering 4 to lily, to help big mama and the babies out. Lily has accepted the little ones and took it in stride  went right from sniffing to licking and feeding them. I think they are 7 girls , 5 boys three are pretty small and those are 3 of the ones to go to lily  I posted a picture of big mama's litter of 12 before I moved the 4 babies to lily's litter. funny coincidence big mama had 12 babies on may 12 lol

http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/Peach ... t=3&page=1


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Be careful fostering babies of different ages. When a doe has some younger and some older babies, I have heard they can cull the younger ones, because they think the younger ones are failing to thrive due to the size difference. I do not have much experience fostering though, I've just read about it, so hopefully someone with more experience will come along.


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## Frizzle

Cool to see your white one has some markings coming in!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Oh yeah, I forgot to say something about him.  He's so cute, I see those tiny little spots; he must be variegated!


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## AyJay658

Aww really cute! Glad she finally popped!! Making me even more impatient for mine to give birth! If you are OK with culling I would consider culling the three little ones as they will be the runts. Bigger babies might stand more of a chance of not being culled by lily as there would be less of a difference between them and her own babies and they might have more of a chance of getting milk as they will have to compete with lily's babies.


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## Peachpit

Well luckily 3 of the babies I fostered to lily have survived the night, they all have big milk tummy's like lily's did when they were that new. But un fortunately one little baby didn't survive, it had a big milk tummy but it was squished off to the bottom of the pile of pups and it was not alive, it was the smallest of all 4 that I fostered to lily, I didn't expect it to survive but I thought I would give her a chance. lily's 3 pups are doing great they were hard to get pictures of this morning .. getting to fast to take pictures of hahaha. Big mama's litter that stayed with her are doing great, no casualties so far and they all have big milk tummies. Posting pictures from this morning  ( oh and I have thought about culling some but the ones I am going to be ending are snake food, and they have to be a bit bigger:/ but I still don't know exactly how to cull them.. I don't want to do it wrong. but I know it is some times necessary to do so.) Oh I also forgot to mention the lily's baby boy with the white on his face has been named by my 3 year old ..his name is swiper lol.


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## AyJay658

I am sorry about the little one =( But glad the others have been getting milk. Ahh I see, well that's understandable, unfortunately it does mean the ones you keep till adulthood might night thrive as well as they could but I suppose it can't be helped! If you request access to the culling forum there is loads of information on there and there are many different methods so you can find whichever one you are comfortable with.


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## Peachpit

I have some sad news. Lily has died, my stupid cat knocked down her cage and when I ran in to chase her away and help my mice, I noticed lily had a eye out of the socket  within a minute her face was swollen and she was having trouble breathing, she passed away. the babies are atm with big mama but she already has a lot of babies so I think I will have to cull some  I am so mad at my cat and she is currently locked in her cat carrier . luckily when my cat decided to be stupid I had the babies with me doing pictures so none are harmed. how long does getting permission to the culling forum take ? I sent a request


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## AyJay658

Oh no I am so sorry to hear this =( My cats over the years have been the culprits of mishaps with my mice too. Try not to hold it against her too much though. It is only their instinct after all =( Poor Lily that sounds really painful =( Glad the babies are ok. I think it took between 24 and 48 hours for me. You have to have made a certain number of posts.. Might be 50.. But they might make an exception if it's urgent (which I think it probably is).


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## Peachpit

I am mad at my cat but I know she was only acting on instinct. really it is my fault I forgot to close the mouse room door, and I feel terrible. She died pretty fast within 3 minutes, so at least she didn't suffer to long. does any one know how often a mouse of 1 1/2 week old eats milk during a whole day/ night ? in case I try to raise the three babies of lily's by hand if needed ? and at this age do they still need help going the bathroom ? if so what age do they do it by themselves.?


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## ThatCertainGlow

There is a series of posts, and I think a video? Under...um... might be health, might be current litters?, of someone who raised babies by hand. Really hope that will not be needed in your case.


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## AyJay658

You might have already seen these but this youtuber has raised two mice by hand and has videos for both mice as she progresses through the days. This is the second mouse she reared so hopefully would be more informed by this stage. Of course as you can see by the end result, the growth is stunted and the mice aren't in great condition. If it can be avoided I wouldn't try this. Obviously because of their age you will have become attached by now so will want to ensure their survival. The survival rate is fairly low in hand reared mice but it helps that they are furred now. Hope this helps. P.S The mouse in this particular video is only 4 days old so you might need to fast forward a few videos.


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## Peachpit

would just supplementing the babies with the kitten replacement milk and leaving them with big mama work any better do you think ?


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## AyJay658

Well it's hard to say for you really..you could go down several routes..you could cull down big mama's litter so she has less to feed but as before, there is a chance she might then eat her own babies because they are so small or she may not accept lily's babies (although presumably she already has). I think any option is better than hand feeding really..you could 'let nature do it's work' and give them to big mama and just see what happens. But you will have to be aware of the risks.

I have just been watching some of the videos and I strongly do NOT recommend letting your baby mouse run along the bed to see your cat!! It makes me cringe because if you saw my recent post about my cat making off with one of my mice, I know that it only takes a lightening fast movement for her to grab them and run. Of course I don't expect you would be letting your cat anywhere near your babies after what has just happened.

Supplementing big mama's babies makes more sense as they will have to compete with the bigger stronger babies for milk. Hence why culling them might make this much easier on you. Less babies to supplement. But it is really up to you which route you take!


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## ThatCertainGlow

What is the total baby count, and when were you planning to remove some of the babies for other purposes? If you mean only as adults for that, then never mind. LOL I'm not sure if just the milk replacement on a paint brush would be enough for those extra babies with Big Momma, but if you are also heavily supplementing Momma, then maybe? Depends on Momma, if you are removing young at an early enough age in days to ease up the strain, etc. Sounds overwhelming though, for Momma and possibly you.

The thread I mentioned on here, the person seemed more successful, and they are/were nice looking adults. Finally remembered the thread title.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12079&hilit=pinky+and+the+brain
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12315&hilit=pinky+and+the+brain
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13224&hilit=pinky+and+the+brain


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## Peachpit

the total count of babies at the moment is 14 . 3 are lily's and they are 11 days old big mama's are 4 days old. and I was going to wait for some colour to come in. some do have to be adults others will need to be about 1-2 weeks old.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Oh, I didn't see this thread until now, I'm so sorry about your mouse, hon. 

As for hand rearing, I agree with AyJay, I think it should be a avoided when at all possible. 14 babies is a lot and I think your best bet is to cull to 8 or lower. Until you cull though, supplementing mum should be good, I'm not sure about supplementing the babies themselves though. If you have had trouble getting in to the culling forum you could PM some members that have experience culling. Maybe the admins just haven't been on in a while and haven't seen your request... you have 49 posts though, so just reply to this and then you should be permitted to join.


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## Peachpit

I think it is just because I didn't have enough posts but now I will, every one seems to be doing ok at the moment they are all sleeping.


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## Peachpit

posted the pictures from this morning of the little babies all together, they all survived the night.


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## Peachpit

so this afternoon I started feeding some of the babies who had empty tummy's, they all seem to be happy now there is less squeaking happening and big mama seems a little more relaxed


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Is mums condition staying up to par? The babies look okay, but it's hard to see all of them... are there any that are noticeably smaller than the rest?


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## Peachpit

big mama seems to being doing great. her weight hasn't gone down by more than 1 g and she is eating and acting normal. Two of the babies were noticeably skinnier but not smaller, those two were the first ones I fed.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Good then.


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## Peachpit

so I have posted todays pictures of the babies, and there is a close up of swiper any one care to make a guess as to what his color is ?


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Agouti piebald tan.  Agouti is dominant, and he probably got it from Zipper. Tan is dominant as well, and he got that from Lily. Piebald is recessive, Lily was pied, and Zipper must carry it, so now you know more about Zipper.

As for the other little babies, some look variegated! Very cute. Variegated is dominant, and they got it from Zipper.

They are looking pretty good so far!


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## Peachpit

thanks and I forgot to mention that lily's babies opened their eyes today


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## TwitchingWhiskers

That's great! They usually open their eyes between 12-14 days, so they were the normal age.


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## Peachpit

I have been away sick for a bit so no new pictures till today, sorry. big mama's babies are a little nippy when I try to handle them why ? they had basically the same upbringing as lily's babies, with the exception of not being handled for 2 day while I was sick.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Nature or nurture or both could be held accountable for their poor temperament.  I doubt two days without handling would seriously stunt their behavior around people, but then again I'm not too sure.

Anyway, they look pretty good. I love the lightly marked varies, so cute.


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