# some recent mouse pictures



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Here are some recent pictures of some of my mice.









A red trio, all Ay/A b/b Sa/sa.









A pregnant extreme black doe, ae/ae. I bet there are some fans of Marmite here, no?









An agouti tan. This mouse has been American-bred for 20 generations on one side and hundreds on the other. She is the penultimate step on the path to creating chocolate tans. She has a long way to go, but I'm particularly proud of her because I've created her all by myself.









An older black buck's butt. 









Another extreme black.









Another red.









A too-light chinchilla doe.









Her too-yellow boyfriend (they currently have babies).









Another older, red buck.









A cinnamon doe and her friend, the frog. Whoever said these cinnamons are poor is technically correct. They're poor qua cinnamons because they're bred to be as fulvous as possible such that they serve to get larger litters from reds (i.e. they're not bred for cinnamons).









A nursing chinchilla doe.









Same doe as above.

That's all for now!


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

They are all lovely. I particularly like the agouti tan. It's a striking combination!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Agouti tan has a lot of potential but I don't like the way the line of demarcation gets fuzzy due to the ticking and I don't like having varieties that don't breed true. Chocolate tan, once all the alleles are settled, will breed true.


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## littlelovesmousery (May 19, 2012)

You have such beautiful mice! I really love the extreme blacks.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thank you. Extreme blacks are really difficult to photograph. They tend to either look too dark or too light, no matter what you do. One of my extreme blacks recently had polydactyly. I counted seven toes on one foot!


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## littlelovesmousery (May 19, 2012)

Jack Garcia said:


> Thank you. Extreme blacks are really difficult to photograph. They tend to either look too dark or too light, no matter what you do. One of my extreme blacks recently had polydactyly. I counted seven toes on one foot!


Could you enhance the contrast of the photos on your computer? I'm an Equine Photographer and I know black horses are tough to photograph. Black point & contrast adjustments are my best friends  I;m assuming that multiple toes are a fault in show mice? I think it'd be pretty dang cool in a pet mouse though lol


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I've modified camera settings, lighting settings, and the photographs themselves before, only to get to work and see that they look a lot lighter or a lot darker than they did on my computer at home, so I think there are many variables. I also think it's possible that my photography skills are just not at the point where they should be... 

Polydactyly is a fault in show animals, but when I'm judging to be honest I don't always count every toe on every foot, I just check to make sure they're there (i.e. not bitten off) and fully-colored.

My friend Melissa breeds mice as well and she has a whole family of mice which produces polydactyly regularly, so I think there must a genetic component, similar to how it is found in some populations of cats.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Monitor calibration can be a huge pain. I've had a few people see my stuff as prints and say, "Ohhh those look so much better than they do on the screen!" It sucks to have your portfolio depend on someone else's computer settings.  If you focus on an area of contrast, say, his ear, hopefully the camera will give you the proper metering to follow. I don't know if your camera has bracketing as an option but that may help.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

That's the problem, actually. They're bred to have no contrast. Every part of the mouse--eyes, toes, hair, skin--is supposed to be the same deep shade of black. So in pictures the camera "looks" for contrasts and makes them look all wonky by either exaggerating what little contrast is there or by making them look like a shadow.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

Trying to pick out one mouse to compliment but they are all too lovely.
The chins are really striking.
The only thing that helps me with my blacks is a ton of lighting.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thank you. The chinchillas are probably my least-favorite. It's been difficult for me to get good ticking, good coverage, good type, and good color all one one mouse. I've yet to do it!


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

the blacks are incredible. i really like the various c dilution mutations, but there is nothing better than a really dark black mouse.

extra toes shouldn't just be a fault, it should be a disqualification. there should be no tolerance of deformities.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes, it would actually DQ the mouse. The toes looked sort of like cauliflower, "branched out" from the last couple, which I guess would be postaxial polydactyly.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Jack Garcia said:


> Yes, it would actually DQ the mouse.


good.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Have you heard of the Hemingway cats in Florida? I've always wanted to own one, but alas, cats and I don't get along.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

Jack Garcia said:


> Have you heard of the Hemingway cats in Florida? I've always wanted to own one, but alas, cats and I don't get along.


not until now. not to my taste.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I think they'd be delicious with a little mustard.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Jack Garcia said:


> I think they'd be delicious with a little mustard.


Anyone who doesn't like cats just hasn't had them prepared properly.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Your mice are quite stunning, as I'm sure you know. 

I'm extremely interested in the history of your breeding, particularly in relation to conformation (type). Have you seen any noticable improvement in traits (such as ear size, as a simple example) as a result of your selection? I mean, noticeable and consistent changes, either by gradual increments or by the occasional "mutant" mouse popping up which you've then line bred? Or have you started with show type mice rather than pet type mice (or had good outcrosses to show type)?

I'm interested because in Australia we can't import rodents. The only imports are for scientific purposes, and they (and all offspring) remain within secure facilities set up as research resources.

Consequently, I'm experiencing the slow process of selecting for conformation, and seeing only small (but noticeable) improvements. I have colour and coat preferences but these are way down on my list. My question is, am I likely to make any significant steps forward, in your opinion, by selecting, or would I need to have the occasional mutant mouse pop up to take the type forward?

Also, marmite sucks. Until you've tried vegemite, you haven't lived.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

MojoMouse said:


> I'm extremely interested in the history of your breeding, particularly in relation to conformation (type).


"Conformation" in the US includes more than just type. It includes type, color, coverage (how far the color extends on the mouse), coat, temperament, and condition. The mouse has to "conform" to the set standards (written and non-written) in each of these areas. I'm pretty sure it's the same in Britain but I'll let somebody who lives there speak to that.

My mice don't by any means have the best type, but they're not awful (for their respective varieties) either.



> Have you seen any noticable improvement in traits (such as ear size, as a simple example) as a result of your selection? I mean, noticeable and consistent changes, either by gradual increments or by the occasional "mutant" mouse popping up which you've then line bred?


I've actually seen both gradual, consistent changes and a few larger "jumps." If you want to improve type, what I recommend selecting for first is head size/width because you can do this in the nest. Baby mice who have the largest and widest heads very often (but not always) have the largest and best-set ears.

One instance of those "jumps" in particular that I remember is a PEW that I had bred (I no longer breed PEW) which had ears that were much larger than either parent's, or any of her siblings'. There was nothing in particular I had done except to keep making small improvements and one day she popped up.

This was her:












> Consequently, I'm experiencing the slow process of selecting for conformation, and seeing only small (but noticeable) improvements. I have colour and coat preferences but these are way down on my list. My question is, am I likely to make any significant steps forward, in your opinion, by selecting, or would I need to have the occasional mutant mouse pop up to take the type forward?


Rely on small, gradual steps, but don't be surprised if somewhere down the road (whether five months, a year, or three years) you suddenly notice one mouse in a litter who's nicer than the others in one area or another and you can use that mouse to jump ahead. What you're doing in selection is basically human-directed evolution, and evolution operates in a mixture of both short, gradual changes and sudden, larger changes.



> Also, marmite sucks. Until you've tried vegemite, you haven't lived.


BLASPHEMY! :shock:


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## Peekateek (Oct 2, 2011)

Those Extreme Blacks are gorgeous, one of my favorite varieties.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thank you.


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## icedmice (Oct 4, 2009)

As usual a droolwothy collection of eye candy. Wish we had extreme black  . 
Is marmite the same as vegemite?


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

No! Marmite is way superior ;-) Vegemite is like very, very watered down Marmite. No comparison! Ha!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Loganberry said:


> No! Marmite is way superior ;-) Vegemite is like very, very watered down Marmite. No comparison! Ha!


This is correct.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

vegemite ! they tried to give me that in Greece once- yuk.


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## icedmice (Oct 4, 2009)

Really! Far out, we don't have it here (that I know of).
Vegemite has a pretty potent taste, I couldn't imagine it being watered down to anything by comparison.
Maybe it makes a difference where it's marketed? I hear McDonalds can taste really different.

I've never been overseas  .


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

You can buy both Marmite and Vegemite in the US (though both are imported). I have tasted them both and prefer Marmite but if I have to, I'll eat Vegemite. Both are very heavy, very concentrated, and very savory tastes. You can only eat a tiny bit at a time so one jar lasts a long time.

There's also a brand of Marmite (called "Marmite") that's been made exclusively in New Zealand since the early 1900s. I've never tried that one, but I hear that it tastes like a midway point between British Marmite and Australian Vegemite.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Jack Garcia said:


> There's also a brand of Marmite (called "Marmite") that's been made exclusively in New Zealand since the early 1900s. I've never tried that one, but I hear that it tastes like a midway point between British Marmite and Australian Vegemite.


Never tasted British Marmite so I can't say. Point being. The NZ Marmite is good


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