# Pink eyed parents, black eyed babies?!



## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Hi there,

I haven't posted on here for ages, but I need someone to answer a question for me on genetics. I just bred a pink eyed white (actually satin, pe-bone?) to a pink eyed chocolate (well not sure he's chocolate, but definitely pink eyes). The litter of eight contains half black eyed babies and half pink eyeds. Doesn this mean that my doe is c/c albino, which is why she can carry the dominant P gene?

Thanks
Annie


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

pew is most often c/c, which is not generally compatible with p/p....if the other parent is a p/p animal that explains the black eyed babies.


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## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Thank you Stina, I'm still very new to mice genetics, and initially I was completely confused as to how two pink eyed parents could have half black eyed babies! But I did work it out in the end  Just wanted someone to confirm it for me, so thanks 

Annie


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm curious--what do you mean by pink-eyed chocolate?

Is the fur the color of chocolate, and the eyes are pink?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Albino can he hiding anything as it's dominant over anything else. The PEW apparently is a/a(homozygous for black) and P/p,( one dominant gene for black eyes, on recessive for pink); 'pink eyed chocolate' is most likely dove...and the babies?

Are any of them albinos? if so, then the dove is C/c (one dominant for full strength color, one recessive for albino, which is cc). If not, then the dove is C/c* -any c except plain c for albino-...

It is possible to have a ruby eyed chocolate; I call those cherry chocolate mousies when they occur in my mousery. The chocolate is a bit on the light side with those...cold be on account of some dilution in the c locus like c^h (siamese/himalayan).


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## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Jack Garcia said:


> I'm curious--what do you mean by pink-eyed chocolate?
> 
> Is the fur the color of chocolate, and the eyes are pink?


As moustress says, they're more ruby eyed than pink (though his are really inbetween), and their coat is a too light shade of chocolate. He's definitely not dove though.
I'm not sure yet if the babies will be albinos (the black eyed half definitely aren't). They were born on Monday(ish) so the four which are light might just be a light colour like champagne (was caught out on my last litter with a couple of champanges that I initially thought were PEWS).

Annie


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## Gracegarden (May 30, 2012)

We look forward to seeing pictures, Willa!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Ah. The reason I asked is because "pink eyed chocolate" can also mean champagne (a/a b/b p/p)...


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## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Well here's the father:









And actually you can see his eyes are ruby in this one:









And Winter, the mother:









Sorry, I'm no photographer, and mice move, a lot! I haven't got any photos of their litter yet.
Annie


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I see a regular chocolate piebald (which can often have ruby or off-black eyes with no other genetic difference), and an ivory (satin pew). As far as c/c mice being always P/P, I'll say on this thread, too, that I have a c/c p/p mouse, and didn't really have to try for him. He popped up in an argente/dove litter. I've also got ch/c and ch/ch mice who are P/p or p/p Your chocolate might be P/p, or C/c. If it's the former, you'll have pink-eyed mice who aren't white. If it's the latter, you'll have only black-eyed full-color and pew babies.


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## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Laigaie said:


> I see a regular chocolate piebald (which can often have ruby or off-black eyes with no other genetic difference), and an ivory (satin pew). As far as c/c mice being always P/P, I'll say on this thread, too, that I have a c/c p/p mouse, and didn't really have to try for him. He popped up in an argente/dove litter. I've also got ch/c and ch/ch mice who are P/p or p/p Your chocolate might be P/p, or C/c. If it's the former, you'll have pink-eyed mice who aren't white. If it's the latter, you'll have only black-eyed full-color and pew babies.


If he was P/p wouldn't he have black eyes? Hmm, looking forward to seeing what the pink pinkies are going to be now...

Annie


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Laigaie said:


> As far as c/c mice being always P/P, I'll say on this thread, too, that I have a c/c p/p mouse, and didn't really have to try for him. He popped up in an argente/dove litter.


Some of the PE mice floating around are actually p-c linked through mice descended from Jenny (WNT) and Karen (KK). You just wouldn't necessarily know it if you only bred PEW x PEW.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh, yeah, that's not p/p. Chocolate itself can dilute eye color. Odds are that the buck carries a c-dilute and that is why you have black and pink eyed bubs

Maggie, what are the lines of your mice that have produced c-diluted, p/p mice (as jack said...many mice that have made it into "circulation" currently are descended of mice that already have c and p or c^ch and p linked)? Its not uncommon for c-diluted mice to carry p and p/p mice to carry a c-dilute...but the genes are linked (it is generally linked such that a mouse is c-diluted with P or p with C), so it is uncommon to have c-diluted p/p mice unless they are from a line that has already linked a c-dilute with p.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Champagne wouldn't be a surprise coming out of chocolate as champagne is essentially pink-eyed chocolate, and one of my favorite colors.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Stina said:


> Oh, yeah, that's not p/p. Chocolate itself can dilute eye color. Odds are that the buck carries a c-dilute and that is why you have black and pink eyed bubs
> 
> Maggie, what are the lines of your mice that have produced c-diluted, p/p mice (as jack said...many mice that have made it into "circulation" currently are descended of mice that already have c and p or c^ch and p linked)? Its not uncommon for c-diluted mice to carry p and p/p mice to carry a c-dilute...but the genes are linked (it is generally linked such that a mouse is c-diluted with P or p with C), so it is uncommon to have c-diluted p/p mice unless they are from a line that has already linked a c-dilute with p.


Yes, this is correct.

What also sometimes confuses people is when they get a splashed mouse with one or two PEs, but it's not p/p. It needn't be, though, what, with the C-dilutes required for expression of splashed.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

My c/c p/p mice originated from PetCo stock! That's actually how I first got my hands on longhair, before I'd gotten better connected via this forum. It's actually why I'm not for sure that my longhairs are go/go rather than lgh/lgh. Breeding them in with Bella's Siamese, the c and p continued to inherit regularly, not as though linked. I don't pretend to understand why, and I'd honestly rather it didn't, as p/p isn't helpful in breeding Siamese and Himalayan, but I knew the longhair would be just so lovely on the Siamese. And it is. Totally worth it.


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## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Well thanks everyone for all your replies, I'm really confused now!  So the black eyes are likely to be due to the PEW being P/* c/c, but could also be due to the buck being P/p C/c, and the black eyes being diluted to ruby, right? Which is more likely?
If it helps, the buck's parents were a pied agouti (black eyes, pink carrier) and I beleive his mother was the same colour as him, but he was mixed with another litter so may have been from a fawn doe (unlikely, but possible). The doe's mother was a self black, but I'm not sure what her father was now (possibly a siamese, I'd have to ask her breeder).

Annie


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

The chocolate gene, in it of itself, can cause ruby eyes, regardless of what else the mouse may carry. That mouse does not have pink eyes by any means, he has ruby eyes. p probably isn't involved in this case at all.


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## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Ok, the most recent development: I have a litter of 1 black, 3 chocolates (black/dark ruby? eyes), 2 champagnes, and 2 doves. No PEWS in the litter afterall... What do people think now?

Thanks,
Annie


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Stina said:


> ... Maggie, what are the lines of your mice that have produced c-diluted, p/p mice (as jack said...many mice that have made it into "circulation" currently are descended of mice that already have c and p or c^ch and p linked)? Its not uncommon for c-diluted mice to carry p and p/p mice to carry a c-dilute...but the genes are linked (it is generally linked such that a mouse is c-diluted with P or p with C), so it is uncommon to have c-diluted p/p mice unless they are from a line that has already linked a c-dilute with p.


My understanding is that it's not the _linkage_ of the genes, as such, that results in the unusual occurrance of pp and cc, because gene loci that are close (on the same chromosone, and also close in distance compared to other genes on the chromosone) are linked anyway. By this I mean that in meiosis they are passed on as a group. The linkage is standard.

However, with what's called a crossing over event in meiosis, a break occurs between a couple of close genes, and there is a reversal in the recombination. This is then heritable - consequently the lines where you see the pp and cc (or ch) together.

This crossing over is not as rare as you'd think, though. It's just that it happens for traits that we don't see because they don't affect the phenotype. I understand that it's one of the processes in evolution, along with individual genetic mutations.

Does my understanding make sense? I'd appreciate input from anyone who could put me on the right track if my understanding of this process is incorrect. It can be a bit confusing for someone like me without a genetic/biology background.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

willa2602 said:


> Ok, the most recent development: I have a litter of 1 black, 3 chocolates (black/dark ruby? eyes), 2 champagnes, and 2 doves. No PEWS in the litter afterall... What do people think now?
> 
> Thanks,
> Annie


Your PEW carries pink eye dilute, as is common with PEWs in England, and chocolate as well. Your chocolate piebald carries pink eyed dilute but not albino


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## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Thank you Sarah


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## willa2602 (Mar 18, 2011)

Here's a picture of the litter, for those of you who wanted to see:


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