# Could he be lilac?



## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

I reserved this pretty little fella - he's from a blue tan x blue tan pairing... But none of the babies were blue tan, 6 babies are black and then theres little Elvis that will be mine when weaned:





































I know both parents can't be the same blue genes since there came blacks. Mom's parents are unknown and dad have black, blue, dove, chocolate behind him.

Could Elvis be lilac?

Also I wonder where the white markings came from since none of the parents have them :?


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

i know the blue gene i deal with is recessive so a blue x blue cross would result in just blues (or lilacs if both carried chocolate). So if both of the parents are blue then something is going on, i have heard of a gene called leaden?, or you have a rouge buck which impregnanted your doe :roll:

Judging by looks rather than genetics the little one does look a bit like a lilac, although im my experience the lilacs (when not selectibvely bred for) range wildly in hue and can be confused with a particularly warm dilute (cece) or incredibly pale chocolate.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Ian is correct. Blue (tan) x blue (tan) = 100% blue (tan). One mouse who you consider blue may in fact be a poor black (in the technical sense). Every once in a while you will get a dark chinchillated black who can look somewhat like a dark blue due to the chinchillization. Chinchillated something might explain the one "rogue" baby (who is not leaden, btw) as well.

There are different modifiers that affect white spotting. While neither parent may carry spotting, they both probably carry k-factors.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

ian said:


> i know the blue gene i deal with is recessive so a blue x blue cross would result in just blues (or lilacs if both carried chocolate). So if both of the parents are blue then something is going on, i have heard of a gene called leaden?, or you have a rouge buck which impregnanted your doe :roll:
> 
> Judging by looks rather than genetics the little one does look a bit like a lilac, although im my experience the lilacs (when not selectibvely bred for) range wildly in hue and can be confused with a particularly warm dilute (cece) or incredibly pale chocolate.


What do you mean with "rouge buck" ?

This is mom:









And dad: http://www.blackiestamrotter.dk/images/ ... 220055.jpg

BTW. it's not my litter, i jut reserved the little weird coloured buck from this litter


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Jack Garcia said:


> Ian is correct. Blue (tan) x blue (tan) = 100% blue (tan). One mouse who you consider blue may in fact be a poor black (in the technical sense). Every once in a while you will get a dark chinchillated black who can look somewhat like a dark blue due to the chinchillization. Chinchillated something might explain the one "rogue" baby (who is not leaden, btw) as well.
> 
> There are different modifiers that affect white spotting. While neither parent may carry spotting, they both probably carry k-factors.


What is the k-factor?


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

lindberg4220 said:


> What do you mean with "rouge buck" ?


There was a bit of a Freudian slip there I think :lol: He meant to say 'rogue' (not rouge i.e. red), meaning that perhaps another buck had somehow managed to sneakily impregnate the doe rather than the mouse who was assumed to be dad.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

MouseBreeder said:


> lindberg4220 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean with "rouge buck" ?
> ...


Ohhh, get it now :lol:

No, that's not the case. In DK all (proper) breeders have the male and female together until the female get thick, so no mistakes there


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## Natashia (Aug 17, 2009)

MouseBreeder said:


> lindberg4220 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean with "rouge buck" ?
> ...


That is not possible, she has been bred at another breeders place, and he only has ONE buck, and that is the blue buck she was bred with 

(I am the breeder of this litter)


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Mom is blue (tan? I can't see her belly). Dad's picture doesn't work.

K-factors are a modifier of the recessive white spotting allele. According to a friend of mine (on another forum), "the amount of white is influenced by additional modifying factors, the k-factors. Both, the s-allele and the k-factors tend to show white tail tips or head spots, when they occur isolated from each other in self mice."

A good way to think about is is that the mice may not carry white spots, but they carry traits that are often present with white spots, like head spots or small flecks of white on the tail and waist. This is undesirable in any show mice, but of course it's ok for pets-only.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

MouseBreeder said:


> lindberg4220 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean with "rouge buck" ?
> ...


Haha! I didn't even notice that. Wouldn't it be funny if there was a mouse variety called rouge?


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Jack Garcia said:


> Mom is blue (tan? I can't see her belly). Dad's picture doesn't work.
> 
> K-factors are a modifier of the recessive white spotting allele. According to a friend of mine (on another forum), "the amount of white is influenced by additional modifying factors, the k-factors. Both, the s-allele and the k-factors tend to show white tail tips or head spots, when they occur isolated from each other in self mice."
> 
> A good way to think about is is that the mice may not carry white spots, but they carry traits that are often present with white spots, like head spots or small flecks of white on the tail and waist. This is undesirable in any show mice, but of course it's ok for pets-only.


Mom is tan:









Here's som pics of the father Blackies Ross:

As a baby next to a siebling:









As an adult:









Oh i know these white flecks - i have some mice with them  Thanks for the explanation


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Dad is black. 

So all the babies carry blue and will give blue tans when bred together (if blue tans were you goal).

The white flecks are nearly impossible to remove from a line of mice once introduced (because they can hide, especially on mice with pink skin) so I'd be careful about introducing them to any line where they're not already present.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Jack Garcia said:


> Dad is black.
> 
> So all the babies carry blue and will give blue tans when bred together (if blue tans were you goal).
> 
> The white flecks are nearly impossible to remove from a line of mice once introduced (because they can hide, especially on mice with pink skin) so I'd be careful about introducing them to any line where they're not already present.


dad was blue as a baby, how can he be black?

Blue tans isn't my goal, i wanted a blue tan male and a choclatetan female to breed together, to get blue & choc carriers - i want to make lilacs


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

That buck is definately not blue... he may carry blue which may have resulted in a sheen of blue as a youngling that was confusing


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

WillowDragon said:


> That buck is definately not blue... he may carry blue which may have resulted in a sheen of blue as a youngling that was confusing


Okay, thanks


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

What Katie says is right. I've also found that when an animal carries blue AND c/c (PEW), the color changes. Both blue and PEW when carried can show through a little bit, but when they're carried together, weird things happen. If one of the mice carries c/c and one carries ce or cch, that might help explain what's going on with the "brown" one.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

At the moment I am crossing choc x blue mice to start my lilac lines... these babies are always black.

But was AMAZED at the different shades of black the litters produced! It was almost like you could see underneath the black, some of them had a definate chocolate sheen and some blue! hehe

And yes, carrying albino can do very subtle, but confusing things to dark coats on mice.

Willow xx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I used to own a lilac. He was not very well typed so could not be bred from, but he was an odd shade of mouse. Online, the pictures you see don't really do it justice. You have to see a lilac in person to really understand what they look like (and they vary quite a lot). Nevertheless, when (either of) you get lilac mice, I wanna see pics!


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Which is one of the major reasons that they are unpopular to show over here... they are a hard variety to stablise colour-wise, plus, different judges would like different shades! lol

There is no definate colour outlined in the standards. I am going to attempt (and hope for the best) to encourage at least two different shades in my lilac mice. (which should hopefully be helped by one line carrying albino and the others not... that is my plan anyway)

The tricky thing will be balancing the colour, because lilacs have a habit of looking too brown and dirty, or too blue.

Willow xx


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Jack Garcia said:


> I used to own a lilac. He was not very well typed so could not be bred from, but he was an odd shade of mouse. Online, the pictures you see don't really do it justice. You have to see a lilac in person to really understand what they look like (and they vary quite a lot). Nevertheless, when (either of) you get lilac mice, I wanna see pics!


I don't think any of you could stop me from shwing pics when i do get some lilacs :mrgreen:

It might take som time before i make them though, another breeder will make me a litter of blue and choc carriers but the doe she's going to use need a break before breeding again


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

WillowDragon said:


> ...because lilacs have a habit of looking too brown and dirty, or too blue...


Mine was too brown and dirty. I think lilac in particular is one of those varieties that needs to be bred very carefully by someone who is concentrating primarily on lilac in order to make it right. I think you're going to do a really good job.


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Its very interesting. I'm going to have to look up the K thing as well.

Thanks for correcting my rouge/rogue issue :lol:


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah, I stay away from all spotting genes because I really dislike the difficulty level of keeping type up in spotted animals (thought I've always wanted a rumpwhite to experiment with)...but if anybody wants a link to my friend's page or discussion on another forum, I'll send it in PM.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

ian said:


> Its very interesting. I'm going to have to look up the K thing as well.
> 
> Thanks for correcting my rouge/rogue issue :lol:


Will you post what you find about this k-factor?


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Jack Garcia said:


> Yeah, I stay away from all spotting genes because I really dislike the difficulty level of keeping type up in spotted animals (thought I've always wanted a rumpwhite to experiment with)...but if anybody wants a link to my friend's page or discussion on another forum, I'll send it in PM.


I would like to see it


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## contraria (Nov 9, 2009)

me too.... wary interresting thing.

we are so far behind ind mouse breeding, that we don't have any show typed mouse :? in DK


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

contraria said:


> we are so far behind ind mouse breeding, that we don't have any show typed mouse :? in DK


Almost all of the ones we have in the US are descended from English imports done 30+ years ago with five or six international imports done in the last ten years. I would imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to have mice go from Germany to Denmark or England to Denmark or Sweden to Denmark. Probably still expensive, though.


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## contraria (Nov 9, 2009)

yes warry much...

and we only have about 4-6 breeders in dk, and it is only 3 that is breedig to bethering the type and colours  so we are not alot off breeders, and therfor the linis we have is from petstors..... larst yaer there was one ho got home a lot of mouses from a sweedish breeder, but no papers on any one of the mouse. some was called "colourpoint siamese" but we don't know if they are cp loking like sia, or if they are sia...

I just found a petstor with Merle and astrex/carocurl mice...

so we are realy new ind knowing what gens we have in DK. and it is only 2 out of all the breeders we have, ho try to learn the genetic of mice :? with I think is a sad thing.

and alot of the times, we have to juse the term "black eyed agouti ?? white white" sompel becours we don't know wat colour it is and wat gens curs the white.

therfor we all have agred on naming som colours after the gens. or simpel the same name...
and becurs a chokolate fox, newer have the chokolate gens, we call

BUT in this threads breeding per, We know that there are no chinchilla gens, and dad is not just black cerring delusien an PEW gen. So we hold on to the mock blue (aa lnln) thort. and mom is blue (aa dd)

but it still don't give os ansor on wat the little boy is. :? 
but im shur we will with time


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