# Argh! Advice please :(



## angelofwhimsy

Well, I feel like an absolute idiot. Okay so a couple.. well, no, 3 weeks ago it must be, I went in to my mouse room and discovered 2 mice running around. A very persistent boy who'd managed to chew his way out of his box sneakily without me noticing (he's been put in a new, more secure box) and a young girl (2 months old) who was in a box who's lid had broken so as a temporary measure I'd covered it in fine mesh (the kind you can use to make sculptures with), fine enough that it could be chewed through. And had been. So I've been keeping a vague eye on the female who got loose but she didn't get huge so I chalked it down (with considerable relief) that she was too young to have been cauight. I replaced the lid that night and no escapes since.

Today I decided to clean the cage out, took out the 2 females.. And found a nest. With 14 babies in. They look like they've been born today/last night, still tiny and I refuse to believe I could have just.. not noticed them! I haven't been giving extra protein, I haven't been extra careful to give them extra food, I'm just terrified now that they'll eat all of them. I don't know. Additionally, could all 14 really belong to the one mouse when she barely even showed?! I assumed the female mouse had chewed out and met the male but it does now occur to me that the male might have broken in to the girls, mated them both and only one girl followed him out.. So then this would be a twin litter and indeed both girls are going in to them although it's too soon to tell who, if either, are nursing. They all have milk bellies though.

So I'm not sure now what to do.. If it's a twin litter then they'll raise them together right? I have no idea who's is who's so I can't really split them at the moment. Or I don't know if I should cull down sharply in case they (magically!) do all belong to the one doe in which case she'll struggle to raise them. One girl is a stone tri, the other pied agouti and the dad a pied blue with poor tan (a tiny blob under his bum). I feel irrationally annoyed at the male - I know it's my fault for not being more careful but damnit, I never intended to breed from him >_< I will have to move the babies on as pets only because dad is an appalling type, small ears, small size generally and mealy coat so I'm not hoping for amazing things of the babies but I don't want to just totally cull the litter either - I'll cull for the benefit of the mother(s) but frankly I don't enjoy it =/

I feel such an absolute -twit-, I should be bloody smarter than this


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## Cait

You're right, the buck could have entered a cage and mated with both does if they lived together at the time. It should be easy to see if both does are feeding the babies - just have a look and see if their nipples are prominent or not when you next handle them. They will be fine to raise the litter(s) together so I wouldn't try to separate them now. They're obviously handling things if the babies are being well fed as you have observed from the milk bands.

If one doe is raising the whole litter, then 14 is a lot for her to handle and I would advise culling if you are able to. If you're going to home them as pets when older then sadly bucks aren't very popular due to the smell, so I would advise that they be the ones you remove. They also push the does out when it comes to feeding time.


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## Fantasia Mousery

As for not giving them extra protein and food, it's not the end of the world. As you can see, they're being well taken cared of, the little critters. Just be sure to give them extra from now.  Also, I agree with the above.


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## angelofwhimsy

Okay, both does are definitely rearing the litter together so I'm going to just let them get on with it and hopefully this will be a good learning curve for them. So far they've proven excellent mothers, feeding the babies well, keeping them clean and warm, despite my fussing they've both taken my messing with the litters in stride so far, no casualties. Watching them colour up is pretty interesting, a bunch are going to have fox or (more likely) tan bellies, most are pied to some extent and several are tricolours. Nice looking, fairly cleanly seperated blocks of colour tri even. Although we'll see how splashed they are once fur starts coming through.

So, hopefully a pretty sale-able bunch thankfully  can't tell if they're colouring up as agouti, blue or black yet, it's dark but doesn't seem black but I suck at guessing colours on pinkies :?


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## angelofwhimsy

my camera can either manage crisp, clear pictures with washed out colours..







or blurry but reasonably true colours :roll:
















maybe a tricolour?















strange little dutch thing  















maybe a tricolour?















maybe a tricolour?















a collared mouselet!







maybe a tri.















stone tri







pity stone isn't recognized, I think these are reasonably decent tri markings although I could be totally wrong


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## angelofwhimsy

Also pics of mums if anyone cares to comment on potential colours :lol:


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## TwitchingWhiskers

They're all so pretty. I honestly don't know what colors that babies are, they look like piebalds to me. The dam's look like a tricolor and an agouti pied. All super gorgeous mice.


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## RockyMountainMice

Wow there are so many! Haha  Some could be Tris, what was the buck? I adore the first doe/mom.


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## angelofwhimsy

The dad was a blue pied with a tiny bit of tan







this chap in fact 

I will have to be patient and wait for them to start furring up to see but it's so hard to be patient :lol: I'm much more interested than I actually expected to be!


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## angelofwhimsy

Groan, colours are showing better - all but a couple are pied agouti  1-2 are tris, 1 is a broken (not sure if agouti or stone), 1 might be a pied black and that's about it  still pretty cute though!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

If dad was tan, then you should have some tan's in there. Blue buck is adorable.


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## RockyMountainMice

Awe! Can't wait to see them.


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## angelofwhimsy

Because I am the least patient person in the world.. have pics from yesterday evening of the little agouti mini monsters


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Oh look at those tricolors *so jealous*.


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## angelofwhimsy

If I could post them to you I would


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## TwitchingWhiskers

That's sweet, you know I would love to have them!


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## angelofwhimsy

So, to distract everyone from my total lunacy over the siamese trio..  have some cute pics and see what everyone thinks I have going on because I'm getting -so- -confused-!










































































I'm considering cutting the litter down to a couple of agouti pied and these so they get a bigger cut of milk and attention.. At this age will it still have an impact?


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## Kitei

Can't really help with the question, but so cuuute! I'm gonna have to steal them all.


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## angelofwhimsy

Haha, I'm going to have to watch you  and if you ever visit... check your pockets before you leave the building again


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## TwitchingWhiskers

They look pretty healthy to me, I'm not sure. They are adorable!


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## angelofwhimsy

Eeeh, the buck on the far left at the bottom is pretty runty.. I don't know if removing the agouti lot would help him catch up or not, I've heard a lot of folks say that it only really makes a difference in the first 3 days?


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## Kitei

Darn, you saw through my plan!
There's just something about tris and brokens that makes me want them all.


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## angelofwhimsy

Haha, well if you like any of the broken agoutis that appeal feel free to shout up :lol:


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## angelofwhimsy

Hopefully in a couple of months I might finally make a start on my blue tricolours :roll:


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## Kitei

Don't say that, I might actually do it. 
Blue tri <3


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## angelofwhimsy

I will give you plenty of photo therapy once I get started  At the moment I am musing on who to pair with who for best success.. Maybe a heavily pied blue to a blue tri buck and the mum of this litter to the same? And in a couple of weeks Miami can move back with Murmur for a second litter and her daughters can play nanny and learn how to bring up a litter before they're old enough for their own <3


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I see him now, he doesn't look terrible, but if I were you I would remove the ones you think are runty.


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## angelofwhimsy

Yes, I think if I reduce the litter and give him a week to catch up.. given how fast they -can- grow, if he hasn't caught up to his bigger littermates by then he's not going to and won't thrive enough to keep him on. There's another smaller agouti self - I wonder if they just end up pushed at the bottom of the pile when feeding time comes around since they have 12 other siblings to get past to get to breakfast/dinner!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Yes they can get pushed around a bit, especially since mum lot has 10 nipples. Just keep an eye on the smaller one, I've had one that was a bit behind and he caught up rather quickly. Good luck.


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## angelofwhimsy

Right, have removed 3 agouti selfs and 2 poorly marked agouti pieds (all bucks), so hopefully with 10 babies split between 2 mums they should thrive! Wish me luck! And if anyone cares to guess regarding the babies colours do please feel free to speak up! :lol: I have to admit I'm so sad knowing how the colours will bleed into eachother as the fur grows full length ^^;


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## angelofwhimsy

Apparently I can't count :roll: I have 10 little ones today so I've checked genders and I have equal numbers now, 5 boys (the pretend dutch pied agouti, the agouti pied with a white face, the most splashed looking one, the darkest marked tri who has the most spots of colour and the littlest tri) and 5 girls (the agouti with a lightning bolt stripe on her face, the other randomly marked agouti, the black pied, the lightest marked tri and the agouti self/tan). Which is nice  Smaller tri already looks a little bigger, took me a moment to distinguish him from his lighter sister this morning which is good too, hopefully the smaller group will mean better health for all.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Well one more shouldn't make too much of a difference. Good luck.


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## angelofwhimsy

I jsut want someone to chip in and tell me what I haaaaave :lol: Have pics of both litters and more of the 4 pretties. I feel pretty mean being so drawn to these over the other but..


















































































Also do tell me if people get sick of my millions of pics posts :roll: I enjoy taking pics -way- too much..


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## Kitei

So cute and chubby! <3

I love the pictures.


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## angelofwhimsy

Thank you! And I'm glad someone does! :lol:


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## PPVallhunds

Nice, I'm starting to like tri now


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## visitor

They are gorgeous! Stop posting pics of pretty mice or i`ll come mousenabbing


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## ThatCertainGlow

I am enjoying your pictures.  They look healthy, well taken care of, and the photos are clear. They also, happen to be of mice! (I'm fairly easy to please in that area. )


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Millions of pics is good! They are so pretty, I want splashed! Also, don't feel bad about liking some more than others, because breeders have to pick the best ones to breed for the next generation.


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## visitor

Oh dear. Those babies look terrible....I`ll have to do you a favour and take them off your hands :lol:


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## angelofwhimsy

Awwww, thanks everyone! 



> Say Thanks to the author of the post: PPVallhunds
> Nice, I'm starting to like tri now


Another recruit! :lol: Come over to the dark side of tris.. we have cookies!

And thank you, I hope my babies are well cared for and well loved although I'm afraid I have to give the credit for that to their mums, I've been very lucky to have such fantastic mums so far, who are ridiculously tolerant of me!

Hee, I shall use that excuse forever! Certainly I'll be using these 4 to see if I can recreate this colour accurately, along with seeing if mum and dad can produce the same when she's next ready to have a litter in 6 weeks or so  then I'll see if I can mix them with stone/beige pied and chocolate pied to improve colour or add satin and still -hopefully- preserve colour. This is actually a pretty exciting little project for me!

And as for you PM65, any mousenabbing will result in immediate retaliation with your adorable harvest mice :lol: so we will both have to wait


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## visitor

Well i think that`s pretty mean expecting a man of my age to wait. My dad had a heart attack at 52 so at 47 i`m living on borrowed time  
You`ll feel guilty if i die before i get any meeces 

The project sounds riveting. Be good to recreate the colours, and generate new ones. Chocolate with white looks so dramatic so be lovely seeing splashed in those colours.

I shall train my harvest mice to go for the throats of any females that enter my shed just in case a mousenapping plot evolves :twisted:


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## angelofwhimsy

Haha, I shall counter train my lot! 

And I'm hopeful to have a reasonable success within a year  if only there was a way to increase doe to buck ratios in litters! Grrr!


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## visitor

There is. It`s called culling


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## angelofwhimsy

That reduces the amount of bucks sure but it doesn't give me more does  :lol:


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## visitor

No. But it alters the ratio, which is what you mentioned :lol:

Shame there is no food you can give that increases the females in a litter, or even if sex was decided by temperature like with crocodiles.


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## angelofwhimsy

Updated pics - sorry, of course more of the tris than the others ^^;; poor ignored non-tris, tomorrow I shall have a shoot just for them!


























































































































Honestly for how often these guys get photographed you'd think they'd be pros by now


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## pro-petz

Looks as though your mice have joined the FMU (Fancy Mice Union) and are waiting for the minimum standards to be addressed:

1: Sufficient time to thoroughly inspect the set for any possible chances of escape.
2: Minimum wage (1 piece of dog or cat kibble will suffice)
3: Improved transport to set befitting a model`s status (held by tail totally undignified)


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## angelofwhimsy

:lol: They examined every inch of the chair and scaled every crease to investigate possible escape routes, let me tell you :lol: and ahh, I'm lucky, I can simply scoop them up (hence the hay everywhere :roll: ) because I haven't been able to keep my hands off them since day 2


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## visitor

They really are scrumptious. You`re going to have to repeat that mating. I bagsy all the litter :lol:


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## angelofwhimsy

:lol: I do intend to repeat this breeding and hopefully the youngsters put back to eachother too will bring me luck :lol: in no more than 6 months I shall have some just for you :lol:


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## visitor

I shall make a note in my organiser ( yeah i still use one) for November * Whimsy made me wait 6 months for meeces. She`s no Angel*


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