# Doe was humping other doe



## Tikmio (Oct 9, 2011)

I have two does, Kitty & Snickers. They are not too old, and have lived together since they were pinkies. Now they are nannies for their half sisters litter. I decided to put them in a mini cage while my doe was giving birth last night. So while they were put away in the small cage, Snickers mounted Kitty by the front! I tapped the cage and she stopped, but a few minutes later she did it again. I know they are both does, is this simply a sign of dominance or should I be worried? Now that they are back in the regular cage and they are being nannies, I haven't seen the strange behavior again.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

ive hurd it can be domance, whcih could have been triggered fomr being put in the new small enviroment i would of thought.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

It's just probably a response to all the pheromones from the doe that was birthing.

Sometimes I can tell a doe is going to throw her litter because of behavior in tanks near hers; usually it's the boys who act up and get extra aggressive. I have seen a lot of different kinds of same-sex play in my years of mousery maintainance . It shouldn't surprise anyone as meeces are genetically 99% the same as humans in the 20 of 23 chromosomes we have in common.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

moustress said:


> It shouldn't surprise anyone as meeces are genetically 99% the same as humans in the 20 of 23 chromosomes we have in common.


ummm......no they aren't... 
"Similarities between mouse and human genes range from about 70% to 90%, with an average of 85% similarity but a lot of variation from gene to gene (e.g., some mouse and human gene products are almost identical, while others are nearly unrecognizable as close relatives)."
from http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/H ... pgen.shtml

Nearly all mammals have a lot of homologous genes.......but mice are definitely nowhere near 99% "the same as humans"

At any rate...the mounting is dominance behavior and likely occured at least partially b/c of the separation of the "group" ...you messed with their social order, so those 2 were trying to work out who the boss was.


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## Tikmio (Oct 9, 2011)

Great, thanks guys! I've always wanted to know who was dominant in the pecking order, but I didn't expect to find out like this, lol!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

moustress said:


> It's just probably a response to all the pheromones from the doe that was birthing.
> 
> Sometimes I can tell a doe is going to throw her litter because of behavior in tanks near hers; usually it's the boys who act up and get extra aggressive. I have seen a lot of different kinds of same-sex play in my years of mousery maintainance . It shouldn't surprise anyone as meeces are genetically 99% the same as humans in the 20 of 23 chromosomes we have in common.


Tikmio: Please reread what I said, I did not say SIMPLY 99% overall. oerhaps I should have said 'up to 99%' genetically 99% the same as humans in the 20 of 23 chromosomes we have in common...

So I may have worded it a bit strange, and, no they are not exactly the same in every gene, they are very, very close with all the major groupings being located in the same relative locations within the 20 chromosomes that we share. That is why meeces are so useful as test subjects in medical research. Differences within those chromosomes are what make mu mus and h. saps h. saps.

Because of that very high degree of correlation, it is practical to manipulate the mouse genome by inserting, deactivating, etc. genes that allow experimentation of various sorts that pertain specifically to conditions found in humans.

So, I should have worded a little different...sorry if I APPEAR to have been mistaken, OK? I don't mean to be cross, but you should do the math, please.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm sorry you feel offended by a simple correction....but I when I see incorrect information shared publicly, I will correct it. People look to others here as voices of experience and knowledge, and spreading incorrect information does no one any good. Correcting someone in a pm for a public, incorrect, supposedly scientific claim does not help anyone that has or will read the incorrect claim. My goal was not to "attack" it was to present the facts.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

But you didn't get the point, Stina. I wasn't claiming 99% one to one gene by gene correspondence, even in the 20 chromasomes that are much the same between the two species. Just a rough comparision in those 20. We have very similar genes in similar configurations. The mouse genome is shorter, contains less genes, that's all. The comparison is valid, although I didn't, as I said, state it with a great deal a clarity.

Please get off of my getting on. When you play the part of the martinet, you do yourself a disservice.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I did nothing wrong in correcting something I saw as incorrect.

That said, I guess I still didn't understand what you were getting at....are you saying that 20 of the chromosomes shared between humans and mice have 99% homologous genes? I, personally, have no idea if that's true or not...if it is, that's interesting.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

You take the cake, Stina. I'm tempted to say that I give up, but, no. I do not tolerate galling restriction or any attempt to impose it. You choose to not understand, I guess. I use language well; I do believe that you are not minded to understand, and for that, I am very, very sorry.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Moustres did say that we are 99% genetically similar in the 20 chromosomes we have in common with mice. I did read it that way. Anyway, 20 out of 23 chromosomes means that the similarities is around 85% give or take so you are both technically right.
On a side note, I had the same thing happen, one of my females was humping another, neither was pregnant though. It can be dominance, yes. I have found even with other animals, that once moved into a smaller cage or a new cage for that matter, dominance has to be re-assessed between them. The reason they may have stopped now that they are nannies is because their is a pregnant female or a female with babies around and they come first. Its similar with cattle, we have found that if the girl, who is the bottom of the heirachy, falls pregnant and starts to show, she automatically becomes on of the "top dogs" so she has first pick at the hay and first brush. That means even our bull is pushed down on the heirachy, he will let the pregnant girls eat first before him which is very rare.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I was making a rough approximation. That's all. It varies from species to species of mouse. I don't mind getting called out for being in error, I will never tolerate having my nose rubbed in it like a puppy being housebroken, that's all. It's nice to be nice to the nice. And I didn't think it was nice to addressed in that manner by S.

What I should have said is that there is a very high correlation in the 20 chromosomes we have in common with mus musculus. And it depends on the source as to what percentage is claimed to be common.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

i would expect moustress is referring to this:



> only about 300 genes -- 1 percent of the 30,000 possessed by the mouse -- have no obvious counterpart in the human genome


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/05/us/co ... all&src=pm

i agree with stina, that is not the same as 99% genetically the same, and it is confusing to see it relayed in those words.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Actually, that works out to exactly 99%; what's your point? I'm not trying to be difficult here, but, your statement supports what I said originally, in essence.

I really don't care to beat this dead horse anymore, it's not going to carry anyone anywhere, as far as I can see. Most of us never deal with the details of genetic analysis, none of us are experts (not that I know of, anyway...), so let's just get on with the mousing, 'k? :roll:


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

moustress said:


> Actually, that works out to exactly 99%; what's your point? I'm not trying to be difficult here, but, your statement supports what I said originally, in essence.


"genetically the same" is not the same thing as "homologous". to precisely paraphrase the press release, something like, "99% of mouse genes have an identifiable human homolog" would be appropriate.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

If you want to get extremely picky with me, you better bring your guitar and amplifier, buddy.

We ROCK 'round here!


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## Pamplemousse (Apr 9, 2012)

Doe-doe humping happens all the time. I can remember being 12 years old and transporting my first ever 2 does by train...as I peeked through the bars I saw something bizarre, turned to my sister and informed the carriage "They're HUMPING! They must be lesbians!"

It's happened between most of the does I've had since and is a dominance display.


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## Tikmio (Oct 9, 2011)

Lol, that's funny. Thank you Pamplemousse.


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