# dove satin and champagne satin. *help*



## kerryann (Oct 4, 2010)

a while ago i posted a pic of my dove satin abyssinian buck(was told by breeder it was champagne) but i few people said it was dove. i have now seen a few posts with pics of mice that are identical to my boy and they all say its champagne so im very confused :?  
can anyone show me a pic of a champagne satin and a dove satin please.im trying so hard to learn everything i can and still very new to this.would also lke to know all the differences to these 2 types of mice


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Have a look at some beautiful Champagne Satins in the Thread - Best in show mice. What you need though is to see the two together on a computer screen, both entirely different.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

There are a lot of 'off' shades in both colors, the standard for these two colors are sometimes what the judge likes and not what you see shown as the standard in some places. They are both difficult colors and are often judged strictly by what you see, and not the true genotype. And it varies form country to country, as to what shades are considered best.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

moustress said:


> There are a lot of 'off' shades in both colors, the standard for these two colors are sometimes what the judge likes and not what you see shown as the standard in some places. They are both difficult colors and are often judged strictly by what you see, and not the true genotype. And it varies form country to country, as to what shades are considered best.


A champagne is entirely different to a dove as one is based on chocolate, the other black, no matter how different the shades are, We are not concerned here with genotype to assist with the OP, merely Phenotype, i.e. what we can see on the surface. With absolute respect to Moustress, you should be able to tell a cham miles apart from a dove/silver no matter what shade each mouse in the comparison is.In my honest opinion, if that difference is not seen, then identification of the original mouse may be at fault- I do apologise my posts dont sound friendly tonight but they are meant to be xx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

This is correct. Champagne and dove are completely different to even the most untrained eye.

What confuses people is actually computer screens and varying camera capabilities.


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## WNTMousery (Jun 2, 2010)

moustress said:


> There are a lot of 'off' shades in both colors, the standard for these two colors are sometimes what the judge likes and not what you see shown as the standard in some places. They are both difficult colors and are often judged strictly by what you see, and not the true genotype. And it varies form country to country, as to what shades are considered best.


Which clubs and judges have you shown under?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Here are some nice doves: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4360&p=36953&hilit=dove+blackthorn#p36953

Here are some excellent champagnes: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=5199&hilit=champagne

Those chamagnes are satin, but standard-coated mice are a little bit lighter.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

WNTMousery said:


> moustress said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of 'off' shades in both colors, the standard for these two colors are sometimes what the judge likes and not what you see shown as the standard in some places. They are both difficult colors and are often judged strictly by what you see, and not the true genotype. And it varies form country to country, as to what shades are considered best.
> ...


-might be best not to pursue that ! A champagne of whatever shade, is very distinct from a dove, of whatever shade, even if both compared mice are at opposite ends of the shade scale, or on the same level.That is the question here. You will find that top judges do not allow personal opinions to affect their judgement,and allow a small range of shades in exhibited mice to cover personal interpretation of a written standard. As an ex judge I certainly wouldnt impose my own preference on exhibitors for shade, I must judge to a standard and that is it.Its a case of once seen never forgotten.


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## WNTMousery (Jun 2, 2010)

I'll be back. said:


> WNTMousery said:
> 
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> > moustress said:
> ...


It was mostly in jest as I know moustress has never competed in a show or even been present at one. If she's never shown her mice nor been privy to judge's comments, how can she comment on such? This is all relevant to the original poster's query.

I do agree with moustress that the genotype is not important if the correct phenotype is present, however that statement had nothing to do with the original question of the thread.

I also agree with you, Gary, that there is little left to interpretation when the judge follows the standard, but as you've said, there is an obvious difference between the two colors such as the obviously pink cast you will have on Champagne that is never present on Dove.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

WNTMousery said:


> I'll be back. said:
> 
> 
> > WNTMousery said:
> ...


Well, we've all three had experience judging mice in show, and I have to say that either as an exhibitor or as a judge I can't imagine confusing dove and champagne. They're just very different colors, even poor examples. Even when they're neither too-dark nor too-light, one is still cool/neutral (dove) and the other is warm/vibrant (champagne). The NMC, LSCRMC, and the ECMA all use similar standards as far as dove and champagne go. Some American clubs, notably the AFRMA, actually use "dove" to mean what we call "lilac," but even still that's not confusable with champagne, especially on the show bench.

This is why I wish there were a way to accurately represent mouse colors on a computer screen but until all cameras and computer screens are made using the same standard I don't know how that would happen.

Kerryann, I'm curious, has your original question been helped/answered?


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## kerryann (Oct 4, 2010)

im still confused.im very new to this and have never seen either mice in the flesh. what i will do is i will take pics of the boys today then u guys can see what you think. thankyou for all your answers and views


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Here are two pictures I just took of a dove and a champagne, side-by-side. Neither are satin, though (I breed away from satin).

It's the middle of the night here so the lighting was terrible but I've included the before auto-correction and after auto-correction in case there's any difference on how your particular color screen shows them.


















Hopefully you can see the difference.


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