# Siamese fox?



## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

First question before I get into detail about -why- I ask....

IS it possible to have a siamese fox?


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

I think so, Ive heard of Siamese Sable Foxes, so I would think you can take the sable out and just have siamese fox


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

A siamese fox is a siamese tan (at/at or a/at ch/ch), all of the c-locus varieties dilute tan to white 

Sarah xxx


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I see. 

Well. The reason I asked is because I think I have one, lol.
I never noticed, because... well, it's very difficult to see.

The reason I got suspicious about her being something else, was because I bred her with a self black father, and got all siamese babies, one self black baby, and one black fox baby.
I was really confused about the fox baby, since I know the male is from a loooooooong line, of nothing but blacks, even though the female is a bit of a mutt. But I picked the female up last night, and noticed that she had a white tummy! So I guess she's a tan or a fox, or what-have you. There's a line where you can just BARELY tell the difference in fur colour, but it's most noticeable on her rump, where you can see the line between her brown butt, and her white tummy. Very cool.

Thanks!


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## Megzilla (Oct 12, 2009)

oh wow! can you pose up a picture??


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I'll try. But I don't know if I can get it to show up on camera.


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

:lol: I asked this not long ago when I first joined because a breeder I had been talking too asked me why I kept talking about white bellies on my siamese :lol: I've got 9 siamese foxes and they are so cute (although I did think until joining here that white bellies were standard  )


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## miss.understood (Apr 20, 2010)

*rubs hands together*.....i have a female siamese.....and a black tan buck..... well, worth a try! either way, it's a new litter at the end of the day, and it's about time this buck got his freak on as so far he's not had a look in with the ladies! :lol:


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

haha as long as you dont deside to keep him lol mine mine mine


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

It shouldn't be difficult to see, because a Siamese is brown with dark-brown-to-black points, and the belly would be solid white.


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

would it work on a burmese though? like the tan go white i mean?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

In order to be a fox of any sort, the belly _must_ be white. This is a defining feature of what makes a fox.


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

i know that but to make sia fox you can breed black tan to a sia and because of the dilute of the sia gene it makes the tan white hense a fox belly i'm just wondering if it would be the same for a burmese but i think i've answered my own question lol the burmese isnt a dilute.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

How do you make Burmese (i.e. what is the gene code)? I've seen mice who are a couple different things referred to as "Burmese" before..

A Siamese fox would be a mouse who is at/at ch/ch.


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

which is a siamese tan really only diluted down? i'm not sure on genetic codes ahhh i'm out of my depth here 
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varie ... rmese.html
quick link lol sorry jack way above my genetic knowledge hehe


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Imagine this mouse with a solid white belly running in a clear line, with regular color on the outside of the arms but white on the inside, and that's what a Siamese fox would look like. I don't have the photoshop skills to make it look Siamese fox, but if anybody wants to, feel free (Willow? lol)...


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Burmese fox would be at/* ch/cch. This would make a brown mouse with dark brown points and a white belly 

Sarah xxx


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

yeah but could you get that by breeding a black tan with a burmese is my point lol, you can get a siamese fox by breeding a black to a siamese coz of the dilute i want to know if you can do the same for a burmese?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Artuntaure said:


> yeah but could you get that by breeding a black tan with a burmese is my point lol


Probably not. You'll need one parent mouse to contribute cch and one to contribute ch. The burmese cannot contribute both, so the black tan would be required to contribute either cch or ch, and unless the black tan happens to carry those alleles, it won't.



Artuntaure said:


> you can get a siamese fox by breeding a black to a siamese coz of the dilute i want to know if you can do the same for a burmese?


But you can't get a Siamese fox by breeding black to Siamese.


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

haha no problem jack i couldnt understand some of it myself, its even more confusing coz i'm not good with genetics. Yeah i read it somewhere that if you cross a Black tan with a siamese , because of the dilute of the siamese the tan tummy would go white hense a siamese fox. i just wondered if the same would happen if it was a cross of black tan and burmese.


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks for your help guys btw i had me confused nevermind you guys lol


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

You're very welcome. Sometimes I wonder if I do a poor job at explaining things. 

Crossing a black tan (at/*) mouse with a Siamese mouse (a/a ch/ch) will not result in foxes. It will result in poor black tans, who carry Siamese (because the Siamese has not been selected for red bellies). These babies would be at/a C/ch, probably. You'd need to cross the at/* C/ch babies together in order to get Siamese foxes (at/* ch/ch).


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

ahhh thank you jack even better, god these genetics are a tough lol have you had a look at my other thread jack?


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

I know that my siamese mice are not the best examples (especially compared to the goregous points on jack's!) but they are only pets and where some of the first ones I got from a pet shop. My mouse Toastie is a siamese fox so I'm hoping that his lovely white tum will show on these photos for you:


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

It looks like it's lightly ticked in addition to being fox and himi. What a glorious mish-mosh of genes!


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

moustress said:


> It looks like it's lightly ticked in addition to being fox and himi. What a glorious mish-mosh of genes!


I think the ticking is more due to the zoom function on my camera :lol: He is all one colour up top as are his nieces and nephews and every single one of them loves to sit on my shoulder as long as possible and get a cuddle!!


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Omg I LOVE Toastie! His face isn't very show-like, but it's so endearing! :love1


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I agree that Toastie is super cute. I just want to reach him a Cheerio.


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

Jack Garcia said:


> I agree that Toastie is super cute. I just want to reach him a Cheerio.





Rhasputin said:


> Omg I LOVE Toastie! His face isn't very show-like, but it's so endearing! :love1


Thanks!! He is a cutie and he knows it! They will never be show quality but they have a fantastic temperament (courtesy of their dad Mintola!) And all his relations have that "you know you love me" face! Except the random ruby eyed siamese that showed up in the litter - he is the most manly mouse ever compared to his brothers! Nice and chunky!

As for the Cheerios, nah. Toastie throws them out his cage. Now a digestive biscuit is a totally different story - nothing comes between Toastie and a digestive biscuit crumb!!


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