# To those who got imported Reds...



## love2read

I was wondering if anyone with imported Reds from the UK has had any successful litters yet?

I remember reading that 1 or 2 people have lost litters and don't recall seeing anyone post about any SUCCESSFUL litters.

There were 4 does with my Red buck and 2 have already given birth. The first doe gave birth while I was out of town and all of the babies eaten by the time I got back. The second doe gave birth last night and all but 2 were stillborn. *cry* She cleaned them and piled them all up into her nest to get them to nurse. It was so sad.  I hope the surviving 2 make it.

Another one of the does is due any day now, so we'll see what happens.

What about everyone else? Any success or has it all been failures for you guys too?


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## candycorn

I had the one litter born and mother ate them all. Otherwise they have not gotten pregnant yet. I admit to being awfully anxious. I am going to try and pull out the buck for a week and start again. 
Stina had one doe give birth and successfully raise her brood...but she was already expecting when she arrived in the states. 
Jack informed me that the firtility problems with the reds is not just the low numbers and becoming infertle with obesity, but also that the reds have a high rate of canabalism. It was the first I had heard of that from any breeders. It's scary to hear it is not just happened to me. 
I am going to try and pair my buck up with others, but I really wanted to stick with pure F1 lines at first. It's quite sad.


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## Jack Garcia

I hate that I was the only person who mentioned that to you! I want to be clear, though--not all reds are infertile, and not all red mothers will cannibalize their babies. But still, as a whole, it's more likely in reds than in other varieties due to the diabetes, hypertension, and other health problems that go unnoticed. The does' bodies often sense that they can't raise babies so they won't breed or they will eat their babies when they're born.

Bucks can become infertile with age as they slowly get heavier, too, so you might want to go ahead and pair your bucks with some non-reds and plan to cross the babies (if you haven't already), just in case...


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## love2read

I'm sorry to hear about your loss.  It's disappointing knowing that there might be something wrong with the line as well.

Do you know if your babies were alive or dead before they got eaten?

I had another female in with my girl when she started giving birth last night and yanked out the other girl when I caught her eating a baby. I though she'd killed it, but she hadn't...she was just cleaning up an already dead baby.

Cannabalism I can deal with because then I at least know that I will have a chance to snatch away the babies and foster them out, but there's nothing I can do when they're born already dead. 

Honestly, I didn't do much research on Reds before I decided to get my boy. It was a last-second decision because the person originally getting them backed out and I didn't want to pass up the chance to get a beautiful UK mouse(and, in doing so, a new gene to work with). Had I known ahead of time I probably wouldn't have gotten him. Too much heartache. *sniffles*


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## love2read

I just checked on my 2 remaining babies...the girl is looking a bit pale and seems to be having seizures. I don't think she's going to make it.


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## Jack Garcia

I don't know the person who bred these mice, but I wouldn't chalk these problems up to the line itself (which would be under her control). I would chalk them up to the variety itself (which is not under her control).

I have bred red X red many times, and more than half the time, it's successful. But there's still a large portion of the time (30%? 45%? I don't know) where there are various issues relating to getting pregnant, staying pregnant, birthing live babies, cannibalization, nursing, and so on. Remember that the health problems that are a part of the variety--and not just obesity--can make it difficult for a female to carry a pregnancy to term or successfully raise babies.

If my current cinnamon satins have enough babies, I might have enough to give a few of you. Almost all the babies are already reserved but it depends on color (red VS cinnamon), so if those of you who have English red bucks would like a purebred European cinnamon satin doe who carries nothing and has no related health problems, and happen to be coming through Kentucky, I might be able to help out...


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## love2read

Jack- at what age do you notice your Reds starting to get obese?


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## Jack Garcia

They're born obese...I kid, but not a lot! 

By three or four weeks I start to notice the distinctive pockets of adipose tissue under the arms, legs, and around the neck of the reds but never their cinnamon littermates. This is a picture I took recently:










You can see the fat sagging underneath the red doe's arm. That's just pure fat, and it's not uncommon for reds. They may not have that _much_ fat, but they do have it.

A lot of my mice never really get to what I'd call _obese_, but they're still chubby and can have the same reproductive problems.

I currently have a red buck who has an excellent head, great ears, and an OK tail set (which is hard for me to get in these mice) and he isn't even obese, but he won't breed, at all, for any reason. That's how it goes!


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## Frizzle

^^^
Whoa! I've never seen that before, armpit pudge? It's sorta gross. : P


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## Jack Garcia

You don't usually see it, actually, because you don't see their armpits (i.e. near their breasts) stretched out and held still like that. After I saw this picture, I grabbed that mouse and looked her over, and you can't see that much fat in person.

It's the same as with people--it wiggles and moves, and in some pictures you'll look a lot fatter than others, because of that. That sounds funny, but I'm serious!


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## Frizzle

:lol: I believe you! It's actually a really cool picture, you see pictures of round looking mice, but you never see it saggy like that!


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## MojoMouse

Jack Garcia said:


> I don't know the person who bred these mice, but I wouldn't chalk these problems up to the line itself (which would be under her control). I would chalk them up to the variety itself (which is not under her control).
> 
> I have bred red X red many times, and more than half the time, it's successful. But there's still a large portion of the time (30%? 45%? I don't know) where there are various issues relating to getting pregnant, staying pregnant, birthing live babies, cannibalization, nursing, and so on. Remember that the health problems that are a part of the variety--and not just obesity--can make it difficult for a female to carry a pregnancy to term or successfully raise babies.
> 
> If my current cinnamon satins have enough babies, I might have enough to give a few of you. Almost all the babies are already reserved but it depends on color (red VS cinnamon), so if those of you who have English red bucks would like a purebred European cinnamon satin doe who carries nothing and has no related health problems, and happen to be coming through Kentucky, I might be able to help out...


As an outsider to the import thread and issues, may I just say that this is an example of one of the best posts, with good intentions, that I've seen.

There are problems with the variety. These are factually and unemotively explained. There is no assigning of blame to the original breeders, nor is there any suggestion that the recipient of the mice has been at fault is some way. It's simply an overview of relevant facts, presented ot be informative.

Jack has concluded by a generous offer to assist those who have imported mice in _what way he can _with his mice, and with his experience. H has no reason to do this as he wasn't part of the group that undertook this huge project.

This person has a lot to offer you guys in the US. As a forum member, he's got more of his share of bad press, more often than not simply because tact is not one of his strong points, and tact helps online communication. But - he is generous with advice and his knowledge, and this is an example of his genuineness to offer real help to those who have invested so much to get good reds, but are coming up against some problems with the transition.

May I also add that I'm not in any "Jack clique" - I don't know the person. I only go by how he presents here, and a lot of the time he's a knowledgeable but somewhat annoyingly precise yet intolerant individual. Maybe this is because he's one of those black and white people who don't have a well developed sense of tact.

I hate the phrase, but I'll use it - I'm "just saying". 

[/end hijack]


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## Jack Garcia

Here are some more pictures of the same mouse, to show that she isn't a walking saggy blob (like the person who bred her):




























That photo shoot was a waste because of lighting issues and the satin fur, but the pictures at least demonstrate her build. She could have been up to 10 days pregnant in those pictures, but she's looked the same for a while now (no babies, no obvious pregnancy).



MojoMouse said:


> This person has a lot to offer you guys in the US. As a forum member, he's got more of his share of bad press, more often than not simply because tact is not one of his strong points, and tact helps online communication. But - he is generous with advice and his knowledge, and this is an example of his genuineness to offer real help to those who have invested so much to get good reds, but are coming up against some problems with the transition.


Thank you. I do have tact, but I keep it in a box in the basement near the dead bodies upon which I feast.

Please don't spread rumors that I'm a nice person. I couldn't stand it!



MojoMouse said:


> May I also add that I'm not in any "Jack clique" - I don't know the person.


You're the president of my fan club, and everybody knows it.

The check is in the mail.



MojoMouse said:


> ...knowledgeable but somewhat annoyingly precise, yet intolerant individual...


I love this! <3



MojoMouse said:


> [/end hijack]


Hi.


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## Stina

lol jack!

But yes, I have a litter from my imported red doe. They are about 3 weeks now....8 bubs (5 with mom, 3 fostered by african soft furs). They are SUPER skittish....but doing good otherwise.


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## Autumn2005

Stina said:


> lol jack!
> 
> But yes, I have a litter from my imported red doe. They are about 3 weeks now....8 bubs (5 with mom, 3 fostered by african soft furs). They are SUPER skittish....but doing good otherwise.


Wait, you can foster mice with ASFs? How do the babies do?


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## Gracegarden

I agree with you, Mojo.
There are so many helpful people here, of many personality types, but I must say I get excited when Jack answers one of my questions. He goes beyond the basics and is it, "just the fact, ma'am, only the facts."
At this point of the breeding game I need facts, not everybody's individual opinion.


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## Stina

Autumn, yes, this is the first time I've done it...the bubs have done ok, but are smaller than those on mom.


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## Wight Isle Stud

The red and fawn Mouse possess a remarkable (Yellow group in general) mutation in their make up. That is the ability to conserve large amounts of food and turn it into fat. If this had happened in nature the mouse would of been a survivor in times of famine. There are those that think animals respond to changes in the environment by evolving, my theory is that the mutations already existed and only those that already had the ability to cope survived. Before I spawn a million replies, of course natural selection also applies. We can use the fact that this mouse can loose weight as quickly as it puts it on. Their litters are 25% smaller than normal, and the litters will always produce a recessive. Slim them down easily and breed them rapidly. There are no fertility issues with English Reds, get em slim, allow for the fact that the litters are small and even then not likely to contain all reds. And give em something to make a nest with !! Mine make nests the size of an average Tea pot- Why am I seeing photos of Mice with litters in the shavings ! Do they do this in nature ? no.


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## Jack Garcia

Wight Isle Stud said:


> There are no fertility issues with English Reds


Ay, qua Ay, has fertility issues related to the inborn health issues (which include but are not limited to obesity). Not every mouse has these problems at every point in its life, and not every mouse that does have them has problems breeding, but as a whole, and in general, Ay mice have more problems breeding than other varieties. It's one of the challenges of the variety. It doesn't matter what country they're from.


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## MojoMouse

Wight Isle Stud said:


> And give em something to make a nest with !! Mine make nests the size of an average Tea pot- Why am I seeing photos of Mice with litters in the shavings ! Do they do this in nature ? no.


I totally agree with this, Wight Isle. Nest building is part of the innate behaviour of mice. For a pregnant female it makes sense to provide her with the materials with which to express her instinctive behaviours. She builds the nest for warmth and safety for her young. Not providing her with an outlet for these instincts can only increase the chances of dysfunctional behaviour when she has her litter. I'm sure most mice cope ok on shavings, but my thoughts are - it's so simple to provide her with nest building materials, so why wouldn't you?


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## candycorn

Wight Isle Stud said:


> And give em something to make a nest with !! Mine make nests the size of an average Tea pot- Why am I seeing photos of Mice with litters in the shavings ! Do they do this in nature ? no.


I do need to add (since I posted pictures of pinkies in nothing but aspen recently) that not all mice like extra bedding. Mine took the tissue and shredded paper and stuffed it in one corner and peed on it. LOL! So while I agree that it should be offered...pictures can be deceiving. They don't show the whole picture. Also thinking and asking before judging is a wise path in life.


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## Stina

many of my does will intentionally push all bedding away from where they want to nest...so they are just on bare floor with nothing around them.


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## love2read

Jack, thank you so much for all of the great info! It's been interesting to read! Although I may not always agree with some of your opinions, I can never deny that you have alot of great information and advice to share. 

I appreciate the offer of the cinnamon does(assuming you were typing that for Candy and myself...), but will have to decline. I think if things don't work out with my Red boy I'll just stick with RY.  I had an RY buck who was nearly the same shade as my Red buck. Sadly, he didn't make it thanks to a nasty URI that got some of my mice sick a few months back. Of course, the ones I had to cull were all my favorites. ARGH!

Wight- My girls both had a TON of bedding and nesting material. The doe who gave birth last night currently has 4" of bedding and hay in her cage, along with tubes that she can tear up and use for nesting material. However, she simply shoved it all aside and empty out a corner for herself. 

UPDATE: Sadly, the BOY ended up getting eaten by mom and the girl was left abandoned far away from the nest with only a tiny bit of milk in her belly and mom was sleeping in the nest without her. So, I took her and fostered her over to a mom who also gave birth today to a litter of 3. I hope she makes it.  Unfortunately, the baby looks to already be developing a little bit of color and looks to be a black/agouti, not Red. *cry* Please keep my Agouti doe in your thoughts since she's due to pop any day now! Hopefully everything will go well and she'll have some Red babies for me! Otherwise, I might just give up on Reds altogether and give my Red boy to a breeder I know who just die to have him and might have better success so I could just get some babies back instead.


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## Stina

Love2read....jack's cinnamons would help greatly with your recessive yellows. Improving e/e is the entire reason I imported an agouti buck from the red lines and a red doe.


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## Jack Garcia

love2read said:


> Jack, thank you so much for all of the great info!


You're very welcome!



> I appreciate the offer of the cinnamon does(assuming you were typing that for Candy and myself...), but will have to decline.


No problem!



> I think if things don't work out with my Red boy I'll just stick with RY.  I had an RY buck who was nearly the same shade as my Red buck. Sadly, he didn't make it thanks to a nasty URI that got some of my mice sick a few months back. Of course, the ones I had to cull were all my favorites. ARGH!


If you want to concentrate on good recessive yellows, why not breed your red buck to recessive yellow does? The phaeomelanins will help a lot.



> UPDATE: Sadly, the BOY ended up getting eaten by mom and the girl was left abandoned far away from the nest with only a tiny bit of milk in her belly and mom was sleeping in the nest without her. So, I took her and fostered her over to a mom who also gave birth today to a litter of 3. I hope she makes it.  Unfortunately, the baby looks to already be developing a little bit of color and looks to be a black/agouti, not Red. *cry*


I hate this. That's the way it tends to go. :|



> Please keep my Agouti doe in your thoughts since she's due to pop any day now! Hopefully everything will go well and she'll have some Red babies for me! Otherwise, I might just give up on Reds altogether and give my Red boy to a breeder I know who just die to have him and might have better success so I could just get some babies back instead.


Is the agouti doe related to the reds? Just curious...


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## love2read

I may put him with a coupe RYs just for the heck of it, but was really hoping I could develop a "pure" RY line with Red coloring. I like the idea of being able to say that I created Red-looking RYs without having to add any actual Red to the lines. Jack, I'm sure that you of all people can understand the desire to develop a line that you can really take pride in. 

Here is the RY buck I had:

























I have a couple of his RY daughters and other relatives, but they're sooty. I also kept a handsome Chocolate buck from him, so I'm hoping that if I cross his RY daughters/relatives with the Chocolate buck then I might get super-lucky and get some beautiful non-sooty RY babies like him again!

No, the Agouti doe isn't related to my Red at all. The only Red/Red-line mouse I have here is my UK Red buck. She's probably Umbrous Agouti. She's the prettiest of the Agoutis I have since all my Agoutis originated from my pet store mice and I only put her in with the buck because, well, why not? Lol. It certainly doesn't hurt anything and the buck doesn't have great type anyways, so pairing him with a mix-type doe shouldn't have a huge effect on their babies. However, it will increase my odds of getting some more Reds to keep the lines going. As long as I have the gene then type isn't an issue. Type can be worked on later, but I can't create more Reds if I don't have the gene to work with. 

Here's the Agouti doe:


























She's nothing fancy as far as type, but I find her coloring extremely attractive(to myself...I'm sure there are others who will find it hideous, ha ha). I don't normally like Agouti, so it takes alot for me to find one attractive.


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## Jack Garcia

love2read said:


> I may put him with a coupe RYs just for the heck of it, but was really hoping I could develop a "pure" RY line with Red coloring.


You could still create a pure line of recessive yellows, even if you bred a couple to a red buck to get darker babies. I think it would be unwise not to, since your goal is ruddy, red RYs and you have all those phaeomelanins at-hand. I'd use them.



love2read said:


> I like the idea of being able to say that I created Red-looking RYs without having to add any actual Red to the lines.


I don't know if you know this or not, so if you do, you can ignore this. "Red" and "yellow" mean the same thing in mice, so "recessive yellow" is "recessive red," and "dominant red" is "dominant yellow" (some labs call it this). Therefore, you can't create a line of recessive yellow mice "without adding red," because recessive yellow mice ARE red. They're just not the dominant kind.

This crossing red(-related) mice into RYs is the route that Christina is taking and I think it's very smart. Within 2 or 3 years--if not sooner--I am confident she will have some very dark, bright, red recessive mice with good type.



love2read said:


> Jack, I'm sure that you of all people can understand the desire to develop a line that you can really take pride in.


Alas, I do. My chinchillas have been coming along since the Dark Ages, it seems. Some day I will get there. But you better believe if I had a mouse on-hand that could help me, I'd use it.


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## love2read

Lol, sorry, I'm just so used to calling them "Red" and "Yellow". I know that they're, technically, considered the same thing, but it's a hard habit to break.  I'll do my best to be more specific from now on. 

You're right, it couldn't hurt. As long as I keep the lines separate and keep good track of pedigrees it shouldn't be an issue.

Your chinchillas are amazing! Now if you ever decided to hand out some of THOSE to the public then I'll be making a trip to KY! ROFL!

Speaking of which, I need to take some pics of a recent baby I got...she looks kinda like a chinchilla, but I'm pretty sure her white belly is from the Tan gene and not from her actually being Chinchilla. She's probably just a Silver Agouti or something like that. Her mom is a Blue Himi Fox and dad is a Blue-based RY(not an intentional breeding...he was, apparently, an early bloomer and got both his mom, his "aunt", and some of his sisters and nieces preggers. Grr!). As far as I know there isn't any Chinchilla in my lines. They do have some of Mike's mice way back when though and I've heard that they're a cocktail of surprises, so I try and keep an open mind, ha ha.


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## Jack Garcia

love2read said:


> Your chinchillas are amazing! Now if you ever decided to hand out some of THOSE to the public then I'll be making a trip to KY! ROFL!


They're really not, though, and I'm not being humble. They're too yellow, too brown, and/or not ticked well enough. Photographing in black and white definitely helps. Plus, they carry everything (which is the result of using mice from all over the world to create them). I've adopted them to a few people, but most people I meet don't want them.

At one point in 2008, Robin had chinchillas that were better than mine though I don't know if she does anymore.



> ...but I'm pretty sure her white belly is from the Tan gene and not from her actually being Chinchilla.


Some chinchillas are created using the tan gene. Chinchilla can be either Aw/Aw cch/cch, OR A/at cch/cch. I prefer Aw/Aw only because it can breed true, whereas A/at, by its nature, can't.


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## Cordane

Well Jack, I adore your mice and if importing mice was not illegal, I would love one


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## Jack Garcia

Stina said:


> many of my does will intentionally push all bedding away from where they want to nest...so they are just on bare floor with nothing around them.


A few of my mice have done this, too. I've wondered if it's temperature-dependent. I don't really know.


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## MojoMouse

candycorn said:


> Also thinking and asking before judging is a wise path in life.


I don't believe I need to be patronised about these things. I take a LOT of care on the forum to be pleasant and courteous, and if I make a comment or constructive criticism I make an effort to word it politely. So if you don't mind, take or leave my comment, but don't suggest I was judging. There's also no need to advise me on what's a wise path in life. Thank you.


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## Jack Garcia

It's OK to judge. We all must judge in order to live full lives. If I put my hand on a hot stove and didn't judge it to be hot, I'd suffer.

The more correct admonition for everyone is not, "Don't judge!" but rather, "Judge accurately."


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## MojoMouse

In context, the suggestion was being judgemental. That has negative connotations. It was not warranted or appreciated.


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## candycorn

Actuallt mojo I was not refering to you, but to the person you quoted.


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## MojoMouse

I really don't care who it was directed at, I found it offensive and patronising. If you take an exception to a comment, fair enough. Respond to the comment. Be blunt about it if you wish. That's fine - you're making a point and it clears up any confusion or misunderstanding. Maybe my comment supporting Wight Isle's post was not worded that well, though I stand by what I said. However, there was no need for your last sentence, whoever it was directed toward (though you quoted both of us). I'm sure Wight Isle doesn't need life advice from you either.

I'm not a sports follower, but in Australia there's a standard - "play the ball, not the man". Patronising people is usually an attempt at bullying or intimidation. However, looking at your post again, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. Maybe it's just a case of cultural differences in the way things are interpreted.


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## love2read

Anyways...back to our regularly-scheduled program of discussing the imported Reds...

UPDATE: My Agouti doe popped this morning and I woke up to a nice, big litter of 11 bubbies!!! *happy dance* I'm going to wait a day or 2 for them to get more coloring. Some of them already seem to have black pigment! I'll cull the black males and then go from there.

Also, the doe I fostered over to a different female is still alive, but doesn't seem to have any milk in her belly. Neither do her "siblings" though, so I'm going to have to foster her to someone else. I have a couple other does due to pop any day, so hopefully she'll be on a new mommy by the end of the day. For now I'll supplement-feed her just to get something in her tummy.


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## Jack Garcia

If the parents are Ay/A and A/*, there cannot be black babies...


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## love2read

Hmmm...that's odd because the babies already look to have dark pigment...

I'm pretty sure that the mom is Umbrous Agouti and not a standard Agouti. Does that effect anything?

I'll try and snap a couple pics of the little blobbers.


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## Jack Garcia

Yes, umbrous makes them darker by causing partial dominance modification of the A-locus.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I just paired up my Ay doe, I am interested in this thread. I hope I have success, she's quite a docile, lithe mouse, about 53 g right now.


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## Stina

The agouti bub in my pure UK litter was darker than the others at birth. He looked black until he got fur.


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## Jack Garcia

That's interesting. My cinnamons and reds are the same color at birth, which makes sense since they're similarly-colored as adults, too.


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## love2read

So does that make it possible for them to have Black babies or would it just mean that the ones that look black are actually just Umbrous Agoutis?

When pairing Red and Umbrous Agouti, what are all the potential outcomes?


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## Stina

I would expect a cinnamon to be much lighter than an agouti...lol Also remember the adult agouti I got?....his skin is (at least on his ears/feet/tail) BLACK...lol


UK agouti buck from red line by CSBeck, on Flickr


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## Stina

I would expect a cinnamon to be much lighter than an agouti...lol Also remember the adult agouti I got?....his skin is (at least on his ears/feet/tail) BLACK...lol


UK agouti buck from red line by CSBeck, on Flickr

Your babies are either agouti or umbrous agouti. Either way. Again, the baby agouti I have no appeared black before its fur came in, and it is not umbrous.


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## love2read

The ones on the outside are "normal-looking" and the 2 on the inside are the darker babies

















They have visibly darker ears and whisker beds, but it doesn't show well in pics. It's really obvious in person.


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## love2read

Thanks Stina!

Are yours darker from day 1? Even my BLACKS usually don't show any visible difference until day 2. I'm a bit blown away by them already showing pigment. O.O


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## love2read

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I just paired up my Ay doe, I am interested in this thread. I hope I have success, she's quite a docile, lithe mouse, about 53 g right now.


Keep us posted! :mrgreen:


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## Jack Garcia

love2read said:


> So does that make it possible for them to have Black babies or would it just mean that the ones that look black are actually just Umbrous Agoutis?
> 
> When pairing Red and Umbrous Agouti, what are all the potential outcomes?


On the A-locus, you can have mice who are red, or mice who are agouti. Nothing else. That's because the red parent can give only one of two alleles: Ay or A.

If the agouti is umbrous, it must be heterozygous (A/a) for it to show, and the non-agouti allele will show partial penetrance with the Agouti allele (i.e. you'll have an agouti with a dark stripe down its back).

This was a mouse that Jenny bred and adopted to me as a pet, WNT Langlia. You can see the black (dove) stripe down her back:










PEs sometimes make the non-agouti stripe show up better.


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## Frizzle

I've started getting chocolates & cinnamons popping up in my litters. It's not something I've selected for, and there is a definite color difference (lighter) between them and the agouti & black mice. I would say that their skin appears pinkish/brownish, but I have no pictures to show it.


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## Jack Garcia

Well, of course. b/b mice don't produce black pigment.


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## SarahY

love2read said:


> Are yours darker from day 1? Even my BLACKS usually don't show any visible difference until day 2. I'm a bit blown away by them already showing pigment. O.O


Show quality agoutis do have black skin and will appear black until their hair starts to come through and you can see golden ticking across the shoulders. Even in my Dutch mice I'm not sure if I have agouti or black Dutch until at least day five!


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## Stina

My agouti bub was darker than the reds from day 1, if I recall correctly.


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## Jack Garcia

My extreme blacks are born black, and I wouldn't be surprised if good black tans are born black, too. Any mouse variety with a lot of black pigment should appear dark when it's born.


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## love2read

Jack Garcia said:


> love2read said:
> 
> 
> 
> So does that make it possible for them to have Black babies or would it just mean that the ones that look black are actually just Umbrous Agoutis?
> 
> When pairing Red and Umbrous Agouti, what are all the potential outcomes?
> 
> 
> 
> On the A-locus, you can have mice who are red, or mice who are agouti. Nothing else. That's because the red parent can give only one of two alleles: Ay or A.
> 
> If the agouti is umbrous, it must be heterozygous (A/a) for it to show, and the non-agouti allele will show partial penetrance with the Agouti allele (i.e. you'll have an agouti with a dark stripe down its back).
> 
> This was a mouse that Jenny bred and adopted to me as a pet, WNT Langlia. You can see the black (dove) stripe down her back:
> 
> 
> 
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Thanks! XD

It's exciting to know that there are only going to be 2 colors to have to choose from! On the sad note, I need more Reds AND Agoutis, so it's going to be hard to decide which ones to cull.  If I can get the litter down to at least 8 then I'll probably leave them with mom. The other doe I have her with is being a wonderful nanny and seems to be nursing the babies as well, so I'm confident that she can handle 8 babies just fine.

Jack, that Umbrous Argente is GORGEOUS! <3 I have and Umbrous Argente doe as well and just LOVE her coloring. It's really breathtaking!


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## Jack Garcia

love2read said:


> It's exciting to know that there are only going to be 2 colors to have to choose from! On the sad note, I need more Reds AND Agoutis, so it's going to be hard to decide which ones to cull.


Cull the ones with the worst type, regardless of color, except be sure to keep at least one red male and one agouti female. That would be your best bet for whatever you plan to do with them.



> Jack, that Umbrous Argente is GORGEOUS! <3 I have and Umbrous Argente doe as well and just LOVE her coloring. It's really breathtaking!


Yes, she was gorgeous. She lived to be seven thousand years old (Jenny bred her, I adopted her as an adult, then Kadee took her for a long time as a pet) and her umbrous patch expanded as she aged, sort of like an older person's hair getting grayer. It was neat.


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## love2read

Cull the Reds?! 

I'd rather have crappy Reds then no Reds at this point, so I'll probably keep all the Reds and then keep whichever Agouti females I can as well. I can always work on type later, but I can't bring back the Red gene ones it's gone.

Since moving back to OH my luck has been downright awful! I can count on 1 hand how many mice I lost before moving back to OH. Within 2 months of moving back I lost count of how many died from unknown reasons(I later found out it was because of the "natural" wipes I was using).  Then I had a URI go through my mousery a few months back and effect all my favorite mice, of course. Since getting rid of the URI I've lost only a couple more stragglers, but it's left me EXTREMELY paranoid and trigger-happy when it comes to culling. One little sniff usually means the COI chamber. :/

So, yeah, I'd rather have a couple "extra" Reds to work with, even if they're worse type, then to only have 1 or 2 and risk losing them altogether.


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## Jack Garcia

That's why you'd keep at least one red buck. From the way it sounds, you'd be better keeping a red buck (or two) and a bunch of agouti does rather than the other way around.

By the way, "natural," does not mean safe. It only means that it has a nature, i.e., an existence and identity. Hemlock, arsenic, and the bacteria which causes anthrax are all "natural."


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## love2read

The natural wipes I was using said that they were pet-safe. I was stupid to trust the label.

Well, I'll give the babies another day before making any decisions and then go from there.

While we're on the subject of Agoutis, Reds, Cinnies, etc, I was wondering if you might be able to help me out with another genetic dilemma...

I paired an Agouti doe with a Chocolate buck and got a mystery baby. :/ There were 2 babies that I thought were Chocolates, but one seems to have developed a Tan-looking belly. Obviously, it's not possible for the baby to be Tan, which makes me think that it's some type of Agouti. There doesn't look to be any ticking though, at least not yet.

I thought that Agouti without black hairs was cinnamon...but isn't cinnamon only created with Dominant Red and Agouti? Or can it be created with Recessive Yellow(red) as well?

I will take some pictures of the baby-in-question.


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## Stina

Cinnamon is just a chocolate based agouti...


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## Jack Garcia

Cinnamons are A/* b/b (i.e. agouti with chocolate).

Any poor cinnamon or poor agouti can have a light belly. The agouti Stina posted a couple pages ago is nice in a lot of respects (I'd own it), but look at the testes and the area around the feet and you can see that the belly is too light. It's a common fault, especially in derivative mice such as agouti mice who come from reds.

Instead of tan youngsters, you may just have agouti-based mice who have too-light bellies.


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## love2read

Thank you Stina and Jack for the explanation! I never planned on breeding for Cinnamon or Chocolate, so I'm ashamed to admit that I know pretty much nothing about either of the genes. :/ I only kept my Chocolate buck because he had really nice type and I wanted him for breeding Agouti(I read that Agouti X Chocolate will produce more Agouti).


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## Jack Garcia

Agouti X chocolate _might_ and often does produce more agouti, but if the litter is small in number and the agouti carries chocolate, it's possible you'll get no agouti.


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## love2read

So, in order to get cinnamon the Agouti would have to carry the Chocolate gene as well, correct?

Well, my current litter gave me no Agouti(unless the mystery baby is one), so you're definitely right about that! Lol. I got Ivory, Chocolate, and Cinnamon/Agouti(whatever mystery-baby is). Bugger!


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## sys15

do reds do/breed better with a higher protein diet? i ask because i saw jack mention feeding a couple of high protein foods along with the mention of cannibalism.


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## Jack Garcia

I feed all my mice a higher protein diet than most people do because I want them to be built like athletes, not couch potatoes.

I don't think it helps much (or at all) with the reds' endemic breeding challenges, though. If it were to be measured, I wouldn't be surprised if a high-protein diet actually made the breeding problems a little bit _worse_, since high-protein diets are often also high in fat, and high-fat intake has been linked to a worsening of diabetes, metabolic syndrome, hypertension, and related conditions like heart disease (in humans), all of which reds can have.

There is no "magic answer" to breeding red. You have to be persistent and patient and constantly "work around" the challenges in getting them to breed successfully, all the while working to improve conformation like with any variety. You have to be invested in the variety and willing to stick with it, even when other varieties would be a lot easier (and faster!) to breed properly.

Improving type and color is hard enough all by itself, but when you throw in all these potential reproductive challenges, plus a higher incidence of tumors, it's easy to see why red has never been the most popular variety. Add in the fact that it can never breed true (due to being a homozygous lethal), and that's even more evident.

It's also easy to see why people in German-speaking Europe and some parts of the US are currently making the transition to recessive reds. I personally think this is a sad move, because red is one of the original varieties of the NMC and as such is part of our shared heritage. I think we should work to preserve it, no matter the challenges.



love2read said:


> So, in order to get cinnamon the Agouti would have to carry the Chocolate gene as well, correct?


Yes, the agouti would have to carry chocolate.



> Well, my current litter gave me no Agouti(unless the mystery baby is one), so you're definitely right about that! Lol. I got Ivory, Chocolate, and Cinnamon/Agouti(whatever mystery-baby is). Bugger!


If you got ivory (ce/c), the ticked baby may be a C-dilute agouti of some sort (such as A/* ce/*).


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## Miceandmore64

Wow hey guys is red very rare or something? If your red keep eating babies any chance you could breed nice does who dont eat there babies and a red and cull the nice does babies and swap them with the reds if you catch the babies before see eats them? Might be a good idea..probably not


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## mich

I'd rather have a chubby mouse than a sickly thin one.


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