# hairless mice,should they be standardised ?or not.opinions



## SarahC

we have hairless exhibition animals in other species,dogs and cats but in the UK small animal fancies have generally banned them.The mouse fancy hasn't but there is no standard so they would have to be exhibited in a show that puts on a class for unstandardised.I wonder how they compare in terms of health to other hairless animals,dogs,cats,hamsters rats :?:Also fuzzy breeders although personally I haven't seen any health issues in mice that have a light covering of fur.


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## Laigaie

According to wiki, "a few Scandinavian bodies" have standards for hairless cavies. What is it about hairless breeds that makes everyone so scared to standardize them?


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## Rhasputin

Are those your hairless mice? Is it the same hr/hr gene we have here?


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## SarahY

I think they should have a standard, or at least I see no reason why not! They would have a serious advantage over an hirsute exhibition mouse though; no moult marks, no uneveness of colour, no nibbled patches... I'm not sure how we could make it more fair?

But if they were standardised mouse allergic people could stilll be mouse fanciers, how wonderful. One of my biggest fears is becoming allergic to my mice and not being able to keep them!


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## kellyt

I have hairless cavies and in general they are bred for novelty and for money commanding £100 to £150 each as a result they have alot of health issues. The main one being skinny sows struggle to have babies. If they do the strain on them is massive causing them to loose alot of condition which can be hard to reverse or the babies tend not to thrive and often only survive a couple of weeks basically because they aren't bred for type or health but for cash.
I'm trying at the moment with the help of a longterm fancier and another breeder in Russia to breed some nice typey robust skinnys and also try to bring the price down.

I would love to see skinnys at cavy shows but they are banned from even being in the show halls which is a real shame as I think it would encourage people to improve the breed. It's also a shame as skinny boars are incredibly friendly.

I think if hairless mice don't have these problems then why not standardise them.


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## SarahY

They can have problems, with their eyelids and such (SarahC will be able to tell you more), but I don't see why should stop them being standardised. Reds get fat, variegated x variegated will breed anemic mice which die in two weeks if not culled asap, so there are already existing varieties with health concerns.

It is a real shame that the NFRS and the cavy people have just banned hairless outright. I like skinny pigs a lot. I have zero interest in breeding cavies because I find their shape unattractive (fugly, in fact!) with the big thick neck and little bottom - but a hairless cavy looks like an awesomely cute little hippo-rabbit thing. I'd definitely breed and show them!


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## Laigaie

Perhaps the fairness issue, along with the fear of health problems (stemming from the varieties that do have major immune issues), is a major part of it. But from how the NMC standardization process has been described, I'd guess it's more to do with how very untraditional they are. As for fairness, they'll be like pale selfs in that they're judged so heavily for type. Perhaps they could in time become the typiest of mice, shown only in pew for color uniformity. All mice are dq'd if obvious health issues are visible, and as you said there are several varieties with major health issues, so that doesn't really apply. That said, I'm so far outside the whole issue that I couldn't possibly understand the complexities. I'm rooting for you, though!


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## Cait

SarahY said:


> But if they were standardised mouse allergic people could stilll be mouse fanciers, how wonderful. One of my biggest fears is becoming allergic to my mice and not being able to keep them!


I thought that in a lot of cases people were allergic to the dander rather than the actual fur, so having a hairless version of an animal wouldn't necessarily help.

I like hairless mice but with the current make up of the NMC I don't see the idea of them being standardised even being entertained. It has been discussed in the past at shows and some of the comments were such that I wouldn't be allowed to post them on this forum :roll:

As for the health issues, it depends on the gene. If you select 'fuzzy' mice to be as bald as possible, you get perfectly healthy 'hairless' mice. I can say this with certainty because I have done it. The gene that Sarah has is different. I know she's had some eye problems in the mice, but I don't know whether selective breeding would improve the incidence of this.


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## Laigaie

Indeed, most folks with pet allergies are allergic to dander, with others having reactions instead to saliva or scratches (rats are bad about that one), but it's an improvement in dander.


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## Stina

> hirsute exhibition mouse though; no moult marks,


I just want to address this....hairless mice (at least the hr/hr that I have) DO go through moults and will have varying levels of random hairs. I have a little agouti hairless doe...her ears and tail are dark (normal skin color for an agouti)....and when she moults, she gets some dark pigment down her back and very obvious dark hairs. Even pew hairless can and often will have a sparce coat grow when they moult. Hairless can also get irritated eyes and slight skin irritations...and discoloration/uneven coloration of the skin...and they tend to overgrow nails. I really don't see hairlessness as being an advantage over any coated varieties, as they certainly have their own flaws!


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## Rhasputin

Hairless has no more of an advantage, than a PEW (c/c albino) does in the show ring.

And yes, hairless can get molty. . . I have a pair now that just will not lose their hair!


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## Loganberry

I don't think hairless should have a standard. The main issue is they don't have hair, so how can they be judged equally like other mice on the majority of points, colour? What about condition? No, they are an interesting mouse but not suitable for show, in my opinion.


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## Stina

why would they not be able to be judged equally??...skin color can be judged for color...why wouldn't you be able to judge condition??...coat isn't the only factor in condition. There are breeds of dog that have coated and hairless varieties (xolo's, chinese crested, etc) and they are judged together as the same breed with specifications for coated and hairless individuals. They can be shown either way, and either can win in the same ring....and a hairless crested or xolo or any other hairless breed would be shown in the group and best in show rings the same as any other dog breed. Hairless cats are also shown in the same shows as other cats. Every variety has different standards for different traits, there is no real reason, in my opinion, that haired and hairless animals cannot be judged together...it's already done successfully in other species.


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## SarahC

Rhasputin said:


> Are those your hairless mice? Is it the same hr/hr gene we have here?


yes they are mine.I don't know what they are genetically,not the same as yours as they aren't born with fur and not the same as most of the hairless I've seen in the U.K.They don't have any hair including whiskers ever.If you breed these together,hairless x hairless for more than a couple of generations you get awful eye abnormalities.You can't select to remove it,I've never kept any mice afflicted that way but still after many years the problem remains exactly the same.The 2 pictured are does from a hairless x hairless litter and are the only two out of the litter that I considered healthy.The healthy ones I find to be fit,long lived and excellent mothers.I'll cross these to a normal mouse and the resulting young will be free of eye problems and for a few generations breeding will be the same as for other mice.So that aspect makes these challenging.Fuzzies seem unaflicted by these problems.The two that have unexpectedly appeared in my longhaired are no different to the rest of the hairy litter in terms of health and size.I understood that naked hamsters,rabbits,g.pigs had serious health problems and that was the bone of contention?Which made me wonder about the cats and dogs which are accepted.Are these problem free?.Should the problems prevent a standard?I've kept hairless rats but again they always seem to have a bit of fuzz which moults on and off throughout their life.I found them to be reasonably healthy but with eye abnormalities occuring more commonly than they would in a normal rat and they were shorter lived,which the mice aren't.Have to take a look at the cat standard and see what they go for.Can't compare so well to a dog because movement counts with them.Just on the rat front,dumbos don't look physically normal to me,is that just on the outside since they are accepted by the rat fancy.Is there a genuine cause for concern with them or just prejudice,I certainly didn't experience anything awful with rats and feel that the lactating issue that is bandied around is exaggerated,it's been non existent in the rats and mice I've kept.


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## SarahY

> Hairless has no more of an advantage, than a PEW (c/c albino) does in the show ring


They do. The ones you have may show moult marks, but as SarahC said, the ones she has don't have any hair ever. One of the important things on which a self mouse is judged is whether the belly fur is thick and whether it has a line running through it. Lines under are big fault and a hairless won't have them. A hairless doesn't the problem of even colour that selfs do, it's a fault for selfs to have belly colour even slightly paler than the top coat. Nibble marks in the coat are a big fault. Tan or white hairs are a huge fault. Lack of whiskers is an instant disqualification. There are countless tiny flaws that can arise in a furred self mouse that a hairless mouse just won't get.



> But from how the NMC standardization process has been described, I'd guess it's more to do with how very untraditional they are.


I suspect you are right, tradition and history is an extremely important part of the NMC.


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## Stina

Coated mice don't have the problems with skin texture and tone that hairless could be prone to. Hairless *should* be free of blemishes, but they can easily be scratched or get pimples and such. I really don't see how they could be at an advantage...they may not have coat faults, but they can have skin faults that you wouldn't have on a coated mouse.


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## AyJay658

Laigaie said:


> Indeed, most folks with pet allergies are allergic to dander, with others having reactions instead to saliva or scratches (rats are bad about that one), but it's an improvement in dander.


Does everyone else get really red and raised scratches from just having a mouse run up their arms or on their shoulders or hands? Because I wonder if I am allergic to the scratches as this always happens to me!


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## Laigaie

I don't, but my partner has that reaction regardless of what bedding we use. The vet said it's the bacteria under the nails. She reacts to rats but not mice, as do a few of our friends.


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## Shadowrunner

I break out when I handle my mice, but I have very sensitive skin so I'm used to it.
Everything from laundry soap to wind.

I didn't realize how many tiny faults judges look for..


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## SarahY

The tiniest fault can send a mouse to the bottom of its class. A class of PEWs can have 15+ mice, all of excellent quality.


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## Loganberry

At the last show i judged at, the harrogate cup show, I had a class of nearly 30 u8 pew mice. None were perfect, they were all flawed in some minute way, and the vast majority of faults were to do with the coat. (this is just the way it goes - you're looking for the perfect mouse and many great ones are beaten by lesser specimens with lesser faults.) 30 hairless mice, as Sarah y points out, would avoid the majority of the faults that haired mice suffer from. The playing field would be uneven, in my opinion.


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## Rhasputin

I think that for every fault they avoid, a new one is added. For instance, a PEW mouse with nibbled hair would be faulted, just the same as a hairless with any skin blemishes would be faulted.

I see no advantage. :/


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## Stina

I agree. Those of you claiming hairless would have an advantage.....how many of you have actually seen/interracted with hairless mice in person?


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## Laigaie

If you look back, you'll see that SarahC, who started the thread, does keep hairless. She explicitly describes the health issues in her mice, but also explains that it appears to be a different gene. Likely, that means anyone who has experienced her mice rather than yours will have had a very different experience. Of those of you claiming that hairless have no such advantage, how many show PEWs on a regular basis? Right. Unless you have an experience of both, you can't know for sure. You can only discuss your points.


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## PeachnZelda

SarahC said:


> Rhasputin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are those your hairless mice? Is it the same hr/hr gene we have here?
> 
> 
> 
> yes they are mine.I don't know what they are genetically,not the same as yours as they aren't born with fur and not the same as most of the hairless I've seen in the U.K.They don't have any hair including whiskers ever.If you breed these together,hairless x hairless for more than a couple of generations you get awful eye abnormalities.
Click to expand...

What kind of abnormalities? If you don't mind me asking. Just curious


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## Stina

> If you look back, you'll see that SarahC, who started the thread, does keep hairless. She explicitly describes the health issues in her mice, but also explains that it appears to be a different gene. Likely, that means anyone who has experienced her mice rather than yours will have had a very different experience. Of those of you claiming that hairless have no such advantage, how many show PEWs on a regular basis? Right. Unless you have an experience of both, you can't know for sure. You can only discuss your points.


I have shown mice, and I have seen show pew's...though not shown my own......I don't think it matters if they are pew's or other varieties anyway. The point is that if you have never even seen a hairless mouse (regardless of the line...and no one has come forward besides SarahC who has said they've seen her lines or any other), let alone several, how can you know that they would be at an advantage in the ring just b/c they don't have hair??? I've seen coated show mice, I've seen hairless mice...I know what the faults are in coated show mice and I I've seen PLENTY of faults in my hairless mice that relate to their skin even though they have no coat. With a standard they have (or would have if its in a club that doesn't have them standardized) their own set of dq's and faults. I wouldn't call the skin of ANY of the hairless I've had as perfect for any extended period of time. I don't know about SarahC's lines...but that's been the case for my hr/hr hairless...I GUARANTEE they would not be at ANY advantage in the ring b/c of their lack of fur. Hairless have their own set of imperfections and faults that can/could disqualify or lower their points in the ring.


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## Loganberry

I have seen and handled hairless mice. My view has not changed. I don't think they should be standardised.


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## Alex

A quick question, do hairless mice have a fully functional thymus gland? I seem to remember reading that they don't. If they don't would standardising them perhaps lead to accusations of breeding unhealthy animals from the 'anti-show' brigade?
Just wondering.


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## Rhasputin

Alex said:


> A quick question, do hairless mice have a fully functional thymus gland? I seem to remember reading that they don't. If they don't would standardising them perhaps lead to accusations of breeding unhealthy animals from the 'anti-show' brigade?
> Just wondering.


I believe you're thinking of Nude mice.


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## Serena

stupid question: what's the difference between nude and hairless?


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## Rhasputin

Different genes, same basic result. Nude mice are mostly hair-free, but every now and then they will grow a short coat and molt it off. Hairless mice generally shed once, then re-grow their guard hairs to some extent, then shed everything and they're done. 
Nude mice also have little, or no functioning immune system.


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## Alex

Thanks for the clarification! So very very much to learn!!


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## littlelovesmousery

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't hairless mice be shown at the AFRMA shows? I've never been to a show so I don't know for sure but their website has hairless under the list of the 7 coat varieties they can be shown under?


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