# Why has there got to be so much drama???



## Tinkers Mousery

I joined this forum as i wanted to chat with people all day long about my favourite animal AKA the mouse!!!
But everyone just seems to row all the time.

I know everyone has their own oppinions but cant they all just agree to disagree???

On the subject of taking mice to the vets....yea have taken some of mine.......but im sure if i was as experienced as some of the breeders on here then i would treat them myself.....but untill that day comes when i feel i have ample enough knowledge to diagnose something and treat it correctly.....they will continue to go to the vets.

But why do subject like these cause friction???

As most of you know i breed pet and show mice ( keeping the 2 completely seperate of course  ) but nothing i read really seems to offend me and u could say i was sitting on the fence so to speek as i breed both.

surely everyone can just get along, learn from the stuff they want to know about and disregard the bits they dont want to know about????

Wouldnt this be a friendly forum for everyone??

i know everyone is entitled to voice their oppinions....but if someone says something you disagree with, try and put the point across calmy but if it doesnt work just be the bigger person.


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## ian

There is an element of this but I had thought it was better recently. I think it's good to have discussion and differing opinions as long as it doesnt cross the line of becoming personal or offensive. I think sometimes there isn't a universal right way of keeping or breeding mice. Although those breeding or hoping to breed for exhibition really need to acknowedge and pay the due respect to some of the amazing and winning show breeders we are lucky enough to have posting on the forum. On the other hand maybe we all need to remember that giving advice doesnt mean ti has to be taken, I knwo it can be hard when you may feel like welfare is a risk though.

In conclusion lol :roll: when a group of people communicate in ant situation some of them are going to argue. The mods are on top of where the line is and when this is crossed without being overbearing and I think they have struck this balance perfectly on this forum.


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## AllieMouse

I know, I've been posting alot of, what others consider to be, garbage lately, but in all honesty, I like everyone here. I don't hate anybody, even people I "argue" with. I agree with Ian, I don't ever expect anyone to take me seriously. It kind of shocks me when users in forums (a place where opinions are _meant_ to be posted) get defensive and take what I say personally.

Contrary to what some people are thinking/saying, I'm not here to attack or offend anybody; I'm not a troll.

My soul concern when I post are the mice; that's what this forum is about. I'm sorry if anyone's feelings got hurt while I was shooting off my thoughts. I'm not perfect.

There's some good people here, good mods. I like FMB.


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## WillowDragon

I appreciate that everyone has an opinion, because lets face it, the world would be such a boring place if everyone agreed on everything!!

What I don't get, is why someone who obviously doesn't agree with breeding (I'm not just talking about you, there are a few non breeders on this forum now) would actually join a forum called 'Fancy Mice *Breeders*'


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## AllieMouse

A agree with breeding, just not neccesarily feeding. But whotf cares what I think, seriously?


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## moustress

We care even if we don't agree. Sometimes we care a little too much, maybe, but as long as we agree that we can disagree and still be civil, it's to everyone's benefit, I think.

And please don't take any of the silliness as an afront; sometimes I think we take ourselves too seriously, when it's about the mousies, or at least it should be, and not about egos or who's righter or wronger.


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## WillowDragon

You write down your thoughts on a public forum, people are going to care about it. The same amount of thought is needed when writing on here, as it is when talking to somebodies face, because peoples feelings will get hurt.
Just because its on the internet, doesn't make it any less 'real'.

As for feeder breeding... people who breed to feed, are welcomed on here gladly, the same as any other breeder. Personally I would rather someone care enough about there feeder mice to want to look into the proper care of them.


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## AllieMouse

WillowDragon said:


> You write down your thoughts on a public forum, people are going to care about it. The same amount of thought is needed when writing on here, as it is when talking to somebodies face, because peoples feelings will get hurt.
> Just because its on the internet, doesn't make it any less 'real'.
> 
> As for feeder breeding... people who breed to feed, are welcomed on here gladly, the same as any other breeder. Personally I would rather someone care enough about there feeder mice to want to look into the proper care of them.


I have nothing against feeders at all. As I said, I completely support the idea of breed over freeze.
I just want to make that totally clear. I had questions about it, it wasn't meant to be offensive. I am new to the mouse world; again I apologize that some people were offended and hurt. It's not like me. I'm a decent person, just like everyone else here. I have made ammends with Steph (of the "sue the sitter" situation). She's a nice person too, she forgave me and I value that.

She needs our condolences right now. She's loosing one... 

I want to get along with everybody, but at the same time I don't want people to judge/insult me based on an opinion posted on a forum. Nobody does.

I'm not going to make excuses for what I said, but I will offer a genuine 'sorry' to the feelings I hurt.

Can we all just hug now? Or pile, there-of?


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## WillowDragon

Using terms such as 'baby factories' and equating feeder breeding to aliens coming to earth and using us to breed food is insinuating that you have a problem with people the breed to feed.

I appreciate that people that care for rodents arent always going to understand people that breed to feed reptiles or other animals, but thinking before typing is a good thing in cases like that. Thinking that those people who source from breeders and then care for the 'food' that they raise is better than putting money in the pockets of mass warehouse breeders that provide frozen mice to reptile shops.


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## AllieMouse

WillowDragon said:


> Using terms such as 'baby factories' and equating feeder breeding to aliens coming to earth and using us to breed food is insinuating that you have a problem with people the breed to feed.
> 
> I appreciate that people that care for rodents arent always going to understand people that breed to feed reptiles or other animals, but thinking before typing is a good thing in cases like that. Thinking that those people who source from breeders and then care for the 'food' that they raise is better than putting money in the pockets of mass warehouse breeders that provide frozen mice to reptile shops.


Yeah. And I also apologized.

Several times.

I'm done defending myself; hopefully you will accept those apologies.

I'm entitled to an opinion. And that opinion is: I respect what you do, but that doesn't mean I have to openly agree with it. If I have to choose between saying, "Hey feed-breeding is great, I find it totally ethical!", or "I don't neccesarily agree with it, but I'd accept it over frozen packs of pinks", I'm going to choose to say the latter every single time.

I don't think that opinion merits an E-grudge against me.


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## Laigaie

If they don't agree with something that's being discussed, but it's the policy of the forum to accept it, why do some folks insist on providing their opinions (which are the opposite of the forum's policies)? I breed pets and to feed. I get that some folks don't agree with that and that's why I'm not on those forums. I'm here because this forum does accept it, just as gladly as the show breeders. Comments that consistently put down feeder breeders or pet breeders make folks like me not want to stick around. Maybe that's the purpose of the contrary opinions. I just know that I, for one, don't see as to how anyone has the "right" to share the opinion that their fellow forum members are somehow bad people. Nobody should be having to defend themselves. If you don't agree with it, you don't have to participate in that thread. Easy as that.


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## Loganberry

My thoughts on this are this is a mouse BREEDERS forum. If you breed to exhibit, for feeding or whatever, good, please stay. If you do not breed mice, but have an interest in mice, go elsewhere and find a forum that is all about pets.


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## WillowDragon

No profanity please, bleeped out or otherwise.

I have left in Loganberry's post, as her opinion counts as much as anyones.


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## Matt Haslam

Loganberry said:


> My thoughts on this are this is a mouse BREEDERS forum. If you breed to exhibit, for feeding or whatever, good, please stay. If you do not breed mice, but have an interest in mice, go elsewhere and find a forum that is all about pets.


absolutely agree with this. This is why i am not a member of a dog or cat breeders forum and why i am no longer an admin (by my own choosing).


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## Wight Isle Stud

I think that no member should tell other members what to do,Aliemouse attracted much negative criticism when she/he did just that, it is guaranteed to enrage most people- Aliemouse, I do hope you take that as positive criticism, and that you become and good mouse mate on here. When I offer advice I always state that I do so and so to overcome problem x etc. Perhaps we can all learn from that, including myself.


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## AllieMouse

I'll be back. said:


> I think that no member should tell other members what to do,Aliemouse attracted much negative criticism when she/he did just that, it is guaranteed to enrage most people- Aliemouse, I do hope you take that as positive criticism, and that you become and good mouse mate on here. When I offer advice I always state that I do so and so to overcome problem x etc. Perhaps we can all learn from that, including myself.


It's fine. I don't have to take it as any form of criticism because I already know why it upset people. That's why I* owned up to it and I apologized*.

Granted, everyone took what I said to heart, but absolutely none of the countless apologies I made for what I said were taken nearly as seriously. It's really sad.

I found a much better, helpful, and useful (and civil) mouse forum anyways, so whatever it's fine.


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## Matt Haslam

AllieMouse said:


> I'll be back. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that no member should tell other members what to do,Aliemouse attracted much negative criticism when she/he did just that, it is guaranteed to enrage most people- Aliemouse, I do hope you take that as positive criticism, and that you become and good mouse mate on here. When I offer advice I always state that I do so and so to overcome problem x etc. Perhaps we can all learn from that, including myself.
> 
> 
> 
> It's fine. I don't have to take it as any form of criticism because I already know why it upset people. That's why I* owned up to it and I apologized*.
> 
> Granted, everyone took what I said to heart, but absolutely none of the countless apologies I made for what I said were taken nearly as seriously. It's really sad.
> 
> I found a much better, helpful, and useful mouse forum anyways, so whatever it's fine.
Click to expand...

can you please post the URL of where you apologised to me.


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## Matt Haslam

ok thanks, i see it now.


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## AllieMouse

Yes, it _genuinely_ exists.


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## SarahC

Laigaie said:


> Comments that consistently put down feeder breeders or pet breeders make folks like me not want to stick around.


please do stick around,these problems are to be addressed.You to fancymice wales and of course you have access to the facebook page for additional mouse talk aside from these disagreements.


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## The Village Mousery

Totally agree with Loganberry here.... pet owner's need to find a pet site.... pet BREEDERS arnt causing the arguements.


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## SarahY

*Nobody* should be pushed out and made to feel like they shouldn't be here. Although this is a breeders forum, all mouse owners are welcome. We can learn from and pass on advice to *all* types of owners.

*People do need make sure they are posting in relevant topics* though, and not forcing opinions on other people. For example, if a breeder has a respiratory problem in their shed, posting 'you _must_ take your mice to the vets and get enough Baytril for 100 mice' is not a relevant answer. Similarly, if a pet owner posts that their beloved mouse has a problem, breeders posting 'oh just cull it' is not a relevant answer.

Breeders are defensive when it comes to pet views on this forum, but pet owners must remember that there aren't many other places on the internet where breeders, and especially feeder breeders, are welcome. There are a lot of pet forums out there that don't agree with breeding of any kind. I myself have seen some very nasty anti-breeder comments posted on another, now closed, forum by some members who have now joined up here, and naturally I am concerned that the same kind of attitude will become prevalent here - somewhere I enjoy talking to other breeders about breeding and everything that goes with it.

Breeders must remember that breeding ethics are very different to pet keeping ethics, and to respect pet owners' views.

In short, as long as everyone respects everyone else's position when it comes to mice there may be occasional disagreements but there won't be any drama.

Sarah xxx


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## Rhasputin

Great post, Sarah.


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## Matt Haslam

Thank you Sarah for a very eloquent response to this matter. I offer another view.

This is my understanding of why there is 'so much drama'

The title of this forum is misleading. It does not suggest that this is a pet forum.

Nor anywhere on this forum does it detail exactly who the forum is for. I see moderators stating what they think the forum is, but no where have i seen an agreed statement about who this forum is for. In fact the moderation/admin team seem quite split on this matter. This only adds to confusion for the forum members. Maybe i'm not very good at coping with things that are not clear, i apologise if my ineptitude is contributing to my reaction.

Therefore all i can do, as anyone can do is interpret the title of this forum. 'A forum for fancy mice breeders'. Now I really don't know how someone could interpret that as a pet owners forum; but obviously it has been.

Ok now of course there will be people who are just interested in breeding and quite rightly doing their homework, but it has been obvious that some of the recent difficulties have included people who do not fall into this category.

I do not wish to shut anyone down or chuck anyone out, but as SarahY said, there is little place for breeding culture to exist on the internet.

I enjoy this forum, thats why i post pictures and contribute advice. I also have contributed a huge amount of time on the forums system, so you might say i'm pretty heavily invested. I do not wish to see this forum turn into a place where i do not feel like i want to contribute anymore. If this forum becomes to 'pet mouse' focussed then i see little reason for me to use it.

well again if i have offended anyone in what i have said then i apologise it was not intentional.


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## SarahC

Madhouse Stud said:


> Nor anywhere on this forum does it detail exactly who the forum is for.


All splits are resolved and you can stand by for this particular point to be clarified.


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## Matt Haslam

SarahC said:


> Madhouse Stud said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor anywhere on this forum does it detail exactly who the forum is for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All splits are resolved and you can stand by for this particular point to be clarified.
Click to expand...

good to hear.


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## Tinkers Mousery

I love this forum and im going nowhere. As there arent many people i know that keep mice this is the only place i can share news about my latest litters and any other plans iv got going on.

i also really enjoy reading what other people have written as you can learn a lot. for example the health issues thread. its brill. gives you loads of advice with what to look out for and what to do if anything happens.

I like the fact that loads of different people are on here...... feeder breeders ect as we are all here for the same reason........our love for mice. If you have a problem with feeder breeders then instead of asking how many mice they have fed to there snakes this month, why not ask what type of mice theyve got.....what their favourite breeds are ect, as in the end they are here because they like mice.

We dont need to focus on the negative all the time.

If it wasnt for this forum then i wouldnt be part of the NMC.......i wouldnt have the lovely show mice iv got.......i wouldnt of met some of the great people i have.........and i wouldnt of been to a single mouse show.

So this forum has done a lot for me  and i hope it can do the same for all of you


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## Anne

I dont think the drama has anything to do with this forum.

All of the fora (different pets and other interests) I have been to have drama. People will always have something they feel strongly about and therefore easily gets into "fights" over. I think petforums are often some of the worse, no matter if they are clearly defined or not. Also it is easy to misunderstand each other in writing.

I think this forum is great, and I am happy to have found a place where feeder-breeders are accepted, as the alternative is reptilefora where sometimes the views are a little different and not so concerned about the mice (no offence to reptilefora, this is just my own experience). Also I think it is great that petkeepers are accepted, as they might be interested in breeding or some of the other topics inhere, there is a lot of good stuff, and why keep someone who is interested out?


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## AllieMouse

Anne said:


> I dont think the drama has anything to do with this forum.
> 
> All of the fora (different pets and other interests) I have been to have drama. People will always have something they feel strongly about and therefore easily gets into "fights" over. I think petforums are often some of the worse, no matter if they are clearly defined or not. Also it is easy to misunderstand each other in writing.
> 
> I think this forum is great, and I am happy to have found a place where feeder-breeders are accepted, as the alternative is reptilefora where sometimes the views are a little different and not so concerned about the mice (no offence to reptilefora, this is just my own experience). Also I think it is great that petkeepers are accepted, as they might be interested in breeding or some of the other topics inhere, there is a lot of good stuff, and why keep someone who is interested out?


Exactly.

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe I joined, as a pet owner, because I respect and trust the opinions of breeders over other pet owners/books when I am trying to make choices for my mice?

I feel like breeders know the most (and the best) about mice. That's why I joined.


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## zany_toon

I hope no one minds me sticking around even though I'm a pet owner  It clearly states that this forum is "fancy mice *breeders*" and as such anyone who joins should know that if they can't refrain from arguing or being negative about breeding issues when they don't agree with breeding then this forum is the wrong place for them. I'm pretty sure that there is a hint in the title :lol: I am interested in breeding and hope to breed my own pets again, and have a general interest in mice genetics/health issues as I'm a trained biologist. And as for the pet owners who are against breeding, well they need to bear in mind that if it weren't for breeders (whether they are feeder breeders, mass breeders, show breeders or pet breeders) like those on here that they wouldn't have *any * of the pet mice that they love so much. Can't have a pet species without some one breeding it in the first place!!! As for any arguments, yes, I agree with what has been said previusly that people should think about what they are typing (to say it isn't personal is silly, if it was a letter you were writing about something some one said it would be personal, just because it's electronic doesn't make it any less so.) And if they can't be nice or constructive they always have the option of ignoring the thread altogether


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## moustress

I think it would go a long way if everyone, and included me with a capital ME, should just ignore stuff that's inflammatory and let the mods deal with the problem.

The ideal would be if no one used inflammatory or defamatory language...but we ain't perfect...sometimes it's all I can do to be moderately good.

We need to have room for all from the breed'em and feed 'em to the sentimentality that some of us are so 'guilty' of (and I do include myself on that list, right at the top). Again, I am on the fence, as I can be very clinical when I need to pts some mousie or another, or I can weep and carry on over some other mousie who is lost. *shrug*

I guess all I can say is that I don't care mostly what folks think about me and my mousies, and I try not to care about folks who are judgemental of my ways, and I try to respect everyone's take on any situation involving mousies.

Most of all, with respect to electronic communication, folks need to remember that what they say or show does affect those who see it, read, or hear it. It's not fantasy; it's real life, and not some fantasy or dream, in which nothing really matters because it fictional or ephemeral. Somehow the mental distance that occurs needs to be mended or overcome by force of character and effort of spirit. We can do this thing; it needs to be done, consistently. Act as if you care and others will do the same. Try to be good or at least careful.


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## WillowDragon

And that is what I was trying to reiterate... think before you type is a good motto to have in places like this, it makes our internet lifes so much more pleasent.
I am all for a good healthy debate... differences of opinion are a great thing, if respected.

But this is a forum orientated towards breeders/ breeding of any kind and anyone who is interested in breeding or the advice and opinion of breeders... disrespectful or derogatory posts towards breeding/ breeders, however unintentional, won't be tolerated.

W xx


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## moustress

Word.


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## cjdelphi

ive bred cats, mice even fish but id like to call them all pets if i was unable to findd homes for them, some don't which is fine.....


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## AllieMouse

Even mousies argue, sometimes.


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## geordiesmice

I think your a very caring knowledgeable mouser moustress, I love reading your posts


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## racingmouse

Sorry, I hav`nt taken the time to read every post in this thread, but I just wanted to say that Fancy Mice Wales brings up a good point. This IS a breeding forum, but it also welcomes pet mouse people to join, so if pet mouse people are allowed to join, we should also be allowed to advise people to seek a vets help without someone jumping in to say no, don`t bother just cull it. Now this might be fine if, as FMW said, you are a well established mouser with facilities (and a mind) to do such a thing, but remember too that not everyone breeds to show or breeds on a large scale and even wants to consider home euthanasia. It`s common practice for any pet owner to see their vet if they feel treatment is necessary or the animal needs euthanasing humanely. So if they mention going to their vets, it should`nt be automatically seen as a negitive thing to do on their part. It can be quite frightening for someone who only breeds a few litters to feel patronised or bullied. That`s not the reason they joined in the first place. The etiquette of a good breeding forum should always remember that not all members are established in the ways of the many.

This is why I thought a pet section was needed on here because all too often threads get lost between pet talk and breeding talk, even if the person is a breeder, but does`nt necessarily want to be known as a large scale, high end breeder and just wants advice from pet owners aswell about the process of dosing baytril or housing etc... without getting in too deep.

Reading and replying to someones post should only be done if it`s a positive reply without the reply stating that `this is what I would do` kind of response, but rather, giving the poster the option of seeing their vet without necessarily ommitting them out of the equassion. If you own an animal, a vet is a necessity, whether your are for or against using one.

Non-breeders for example fear posting within the breeding sections because we know any opinions we have will probably be seen by some as stupid and non-informed, when actually, it can be refreshing sometimes to see a different opinion, even if some see it as stepping on toes, when it`s not.


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## SarahC

racingmouse said:


> This is why I thought a pet section was needed on here because all too often threads get lost between pet talk and breeding talk, even if the person is a breeder, but does`nt necessarily want to be known as a large scale, high end breeder and just wants advice from pet owners aswell about the process of dosing baytril or housing etc... without getting in too deep.
> 
> .


I supported a section for non breeders/rescuers or other groups that had something to contribute other than the usual breeders.In fact I have stuck my neck out a long way to include this,often speaking alone.When push came to shove you declared that you didn't require such a section.Not much point speaking out if the people involved declare they do not require such a thing.The deciding on what is to be done about recent events is now done and dusted and information in relation to this will be released in due course.


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## WillowDragon

racingmouse said:


> Sorry, I hav`nt taken the time to read every post in this thread, but I just wanted to say that Fancy Mice Wales brings up a good point. This IS a breeding forum, but it also welcomes pet mouse people to join, so if pet mouse people are allowed to join, we should also be allowed to advise people to seek a vets help without someone jumping in to say no, don`t bother just cull it. Now this might be fine if, as FMW said, you are a well established mouser with facilities (and a mind) to do such a thing, but remember too that not everyone breeds to show or breeds on a large scale and even wants to consider home euthanasia. It`s common practice for any pet owner to see their vet if they feel treatment is necessary or the animal needs euthanasing humanely. So if they mention going to their vets, it should`nt be automatically seen as a negitive thing to do on their part. It can be quite frightening for someone who only breeds a few litters to feel patronised or bullied. That`s not the reason they joined in the first place. The etiquette of a good breeding forum should always remember that not all members are established in the ways of the many.
> 
> This is why I thought a pet section was needed on here because all too often threads get lost between pet talk and breeding talk, even if the person is a breeder, but does`nt necessarily want to be known as a large scale, high end breeder and just wants advice from pet owners aswell about the process of dosing baytril or housing etc... without getting in too deep.
> 
> Reading and replying to someones post should only be done if it`s a positive reply without the reply stating that `this is what I would do` kind of response, but rather, giving the poster the option of seeing their vet without necessarily ommitting them out of the equassion. If you own an animal, a vet is a necessity, whether your are for or against using one.
> 
> Non-breeders for example fear posting within the breeding sections because we know any opinions we have will probably be seen by some as stupid and non-informed, when actually, it can be refreshing sometimes to see a different opinion, even if some see it as stepping on toes, when it`s not.


If somebody posts on this forum asking for advice... they are asking for advice FROM US.

Just telling them to go and see their vet is not advice, it should be a given. It shouldn't need to be said. But it has been, in a disclaimer clearly seen, in the health section... as well as us having a section moderator that is a qualified vet herself.

And when people are asking advice from us, what else can we say except 'This is what I would do...' because that is what they are asking us!

I have never seen anyone on this forum actively encourage someone not to seek a vets advice, I have never seen anyone against vets in general... the only thing I have seen, and its unfortunately true, is people stating that most vets are not mouse 'savvy'


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## WoodWitch

racingmouse said:


> we should also be allowed to advise people to seek a vets help without someone jumping in to say no, don`t bother just cull it


That's an unfair statement and an example of the negative attitude towards breeders that must, and IS going to change around here! I don't know of any breeders on this forum that would suggest anything so coarse to an obvious pet keeper.

All of our experts here are trying to help and if one is good enough to offer some _real_ advice, you should count yourself very lucky, after all they don't have to, they are not paid to do it.


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## racingmouse

I realise if a person posts for advice they are asking here because they are trying to avoid going to a vet and in most cases, I can understand that. Many vets don`t see mice daily so even if you do decide to see your vet, chances are you will be given a treatment that may or may not work anyway, but Baytril for example is needed for respiratory problems, so should always be put forward as the best treatment choice for mice who sneeze and wheeze or have obvious breathing issues going on since it is one of the most common ailments seen in mice. So seeing a vet for respiratory issues is a must.

Everything else can usually be covered by home-treatments or remedies with the exception of mammary tumours and more severe problems.

SarahC, I would welcome a pet section on here just as much as everyone else who expressed an interest, but I can`t honestly say if it would just be an extension of what`s already on here and whether it would stay as a pet only section. Chances are many breeders would still advise keeping mice in smaller containers (usually used for breeding purposes) but would`nt normally be looked at in a pet mouse set-up and if that was to happen, then you would find people clashing again over opinions. But because the section would be open to everyone anyway, that can`t be helped. It would be a metter of members trying to stay within their own confines (just as I would stay away from offering advice in the breeding sections) but I can`t see that happening. Would be nice though.


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## WillowDragon

I really do wonder why you are here my dear, if you want you have your own 'section'... do you really think segregation is the answer to a harmonious forum?

I will kindly say one last time, this forum is for breeders, people who want to start breeding and breeders who have advice to give, if pet keepers wish to join here they are more than welcome, want to show off pictures of their beloved pets, please do so... but if advice given when asked for isn't liked, and if they do not like the ethics of breeding, then they are more than free to leave.


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## Seawatch Stud

The simple truth is this. If a mouse gets sick, it will die, or get better, that's that. In reality it's rare that a Vet can do anything for an animal as small as a mouse. The Vet will try to help you, but he/she is doing what he/she can to help YOU, not the mouse. Nobody knows better than a Vet, the essential futility of trying to "cure" a mouse of disease. This is a hard truth, but a truth none the less.


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## Matt Haslam

Seawatch Stud said:


> The simple truth is this. If a mouse gets sick, it will die, or get better, that's that. In reality it's rare that a Vet can do anything for an animal as small as a mouse. The Vet will try to help you, but he/she is doing what he/she can to help YOU, not the mouse. Nobody knows better than a Vet, the essential futility of trying to "cure" a mouse of disease. This is a hard truth, but a truth none the less.


there is a parallel in the human world, where people feel reassured they have seen a doctor yet there is little medically that the doctor can do for them.


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## Kallan

Can we please stop dragging up the vet thing, it's been done to death. And I am a vet.



> It would be a metter of members trying to stay within their own confines


Segregation never helps. We are segregated away here from the rest of the world because not other forum likes us, and looks what happens! This issue is being dealt with now.

What Seawatch Stud says is pretty much correct.

Now can we close this thread before it drags up any more arguments?


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## racingmouse

WillowDragon you sound like David Cameron in his latest commons speech. I`m not a `dear` I`m a person. It`s patronising talk like this that should not be allowed on forums and you have just shown that you don`t tolerate outsiders with advice to give. But it just goes to prove my point that people like myself will never have a voice on here anyway because it`s too deep rooted to change. I only post on here because I want to help or advise the person asking for advice. The last thing I expect is to be treated like an outsider always feeling as though I`m defending myself, which is what is happening, yet pet owners are supposed to be welcome? That`s not my experience I`m afraid, or maybe it`s because I have an opinion? Not just because I mention seeing a vet, but the whole feeling of anti-ness that comes across if you dare to say something that others see as threatening their forum and sneer at anything else that`s put across, even with the best of intentions.

I`m afraid it`s come down to walking on eggshells now so I know it`s time to go. I know some lovely people on here and have also met some nice members since joining and have tried my best to adapt. It`s a shame forums become so `cliquish` that they can`t be more welcoming to other mouse lovers without making lesser members feel the way I do sometimes and I know it`s not just me who feels this way. I did`nt start this topic remember, I only posted to highlight what FMW was saying.

Wish I had`nt bothered now.


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## Rhasputin

On a slightly related note, I don't like this new idea of a 'mice keepers' forum. It's just setting up for failure, splitting the community even further apart.

We're such a small community to begin with, it seems completely counter productive to split it like this. :| 
Sigh.


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## WillowDragon

Yes, I did sound condesending... I apologise.

Best of intentions aside, you have made yourself the outsider. I'm sorry if you feel hard done by, but this forum won't change because it is what it is. And this is one of the very few places on the internet where breeders of all kinds can feel accepted, so forgive us please if we want to defend that.

We have a brand new forum opened just today, solely for pet keepers and people who want to learn about and discuss mice without the breeding side of things. I do hope you will check it out and consider frequenting it.

P.S Rhasputin... I think its quite clear from recent ruptions, that our 'community' is already split. By introducing a new forum we can appease people without having to split this forum.


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## Rhasputin

WillowDragon said:


> P.S Rhasputin... I think its quite clear from recent ruptions, that our 'community' is already split. By introducing a new forum we can appease people without having to split this forum.


I suppose that's true. :|


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## moustress

The new forum is very pretty, but will most likely remain largely empty, just as the Gold and Platinum section of this forum is largely unused. People are going to want to be where the action is, where folks will see their pictures, hear their complaints, give them feedback.

I think it's great that the folks who run this Forum have gone to the trouble of creating a beautiful new venue; they have bent over backward to make folks who keep meeces as pets know that they matter to many of the rest of us, and that we care about their feelings.

This is an awesome community of which to be a part. Thanks again to whoever did the pretty design of the new Forum.


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## SarahC

I'm just going to make one final point on the vet thing.Forgive me Kallan.Most of us started as pet keepers.I did and I've had more baytril than I care to remember.It's worth a go but not a cure all,it's no good expecting miracles from either the vet or the product.I have parrots and if they are poorly and I take them to the local vets I get the easily dished out baytril.So I drive 25 miles to a specialist vet,who takes blood and swabs and administers the right product but obviously it costs a lot.We also have koi carp which are as bad as the mice for getting things.An absolute waste of time and added stress for the fish involving the vet,they haven't swallowed the book of knowledge and I don't expect them to.We have found a fish doctor,a passionate 'amateur' who comes round with his microscope.It costs £35 and he's always been right.I've changed vets 4 time for my bulldogs until I have found one who is experienced in their special needs.Where is a specialist mouse vet going to come from,it's unrealistic in most cases but of course there is no harm in trying.
As for the new forum.Well I want to thank Dom for all his hard work.If no one steps forward I'll help him to moderate with out expressing controversial opinion.I'm willing to suck it and see.


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## racingmouse

I just wanted to say also that I totally agree with what SarahC has just said regarding the correct treatment. I know it`s hard to find that `cure` that we all want and I`m not saying Baytril or any other medication is a cure. I`m on your side on many points here because I have been through many, many vet trips and medications that are prescribed for mice and in total honestly, apart from the baytril I have used, nothing else was a help, but I had to try.

Being honest, I find that I never really see my own vet unless I need baytril or a mouse euthanased, purely because I`ve had the experience of the other drugs, creams and potions offered and having spent a fair amount on those and return taxi fares, I never saw any results from them. Baytril yes, but nothing else sadly. So I do understand the upset I might cause by mentioning going to see your vet, but that comes down to me being a pet mouse owner and pet mouse owners/keepers see vets as part of keeping mice and small rodents. It`s just common practice when you know your mouse/mice are ill and you are at a loss as to how to treat them or watch them die. The first thing you do is call or go to see your vet, even if you know deep down it may not help. It`s just human nature to `do the right thing`.

I realise now that this is a place for breeders, so any input I make probably won`t make a difference unless the poster is happy to use baytril and keeps their mice solely as pets and only wants advice regarding this, so I doubt I will be posting much now anyway, if at all.


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## SarahC

racingmouse said:


> I had to try.


and there's nothing wrong with that or promoting it is an option.


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## Matt Haslam

I think it would be sad if the pet owners on here don't take the opportunity to really create a great pet forum, full of pictures and advice.

The passion shown by pet owning members on here has been relentless, therefore I am really hopeful that it will be a great forum. I understand the pet owning community has lost a forum recently, i don't know for what reason.

I fully support the enormous effort that Dom and the admin and mod team have made!
Well done guys

I may even pop on the pet forum occasionally, just for a look mind and if i have any mice to sell as pets!


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## racingmouse

I will certainly have a look at the new forum and hopefully any new and existing members who stumble across this site can be diverted over there if they are more inclined to keep mice as pets rather than have a breeding interest, although breeding is`nt a bad thing anyway as one member said earlier, if it was`nt for breeders, we would`nt have pet mice! It`s just a shame we all can`t hug and be part of the same family without conflicts getting in the way. :roll:

Edited to add: MadHousestud, this other forum would be a great place for breeders to advertise the mice they wanted to offer free to pet homes too? Selling would be fine also though.


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## NuttySian

I'll be looking at both forums, my mice are pets but I highly value the opinions of the breeders on here as well as fellow pet owners. I also love looking at all the photos of litters and learning about the colours etc.
I'm fine with the whole breeding thing (technical term :lol. There are some aspects of it I couldn't do but I hope I've never insulted any breeders that do those things as I do understand it has to be done!

Anyway.. that probably made no sense so I'll toddle off now.


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## SarahC

racingmouse said:


> , this other forum would be a great place for breeders to advertise the mice they wanted to offer free to pet homes too? Selling would be fine also though.


that crossed my mind as well.Although I don't generally rehome I can see that someone such as you could provide a great life although I would only consider a well known forum friend,to many people about trying to get something for nothing for all the wrong reasons.


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## racingmouse

The new forum is looking really good so it just needs to attact pet mousers now! SarahC, it would be a lovely idea to rehome some of your mice on there. I have two ex-breeding females from kallan (Betsy and Maisy) who had one litter each and they are happily retired with me now. 

I joined the new forum (well not joined as I`m already a member on here) but logged in and posted an introduction. I will make a point of visiting the forum. Dom has done a lovely job with it I have to say. It might not be found all that well though if people google for it? I only knew about it because I`m a member on here and see the link for it, so will people be able to find this new PetMouseKeepers forum easily?


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## Matt Haslam

Google takes a few days to pick it up. some tips to get more easily found.

create lots of posts! Google spiders will pick your forum up easier if there is more content!

create links on other forums, so if you are a member of another forum, put it in your forum signature if allowed.

links from other websites.

give it a week then see how your doing


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## DomLangowski

Yea it will take a while to start to climb google, getting FMB where it is today took some time but we have done it, If you type "Mouse breeder" in google we are at the top, and that has been done with alot of linking and help from members linking with us. I would just like to make clear as one person has said that FMB buys its users from google, this is untrue, we have never "bought" users or advertised with google, i personally dont feel we need to. If you have enough knowledge of the internet its not hard to get to the top of certain key words.

Thank you to everyone that has helped create this amazing community and thanks for the comments on the new forum, I hope in turn this will make both forums bigger and better, and will make our mouse community stronger as a whole.


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## zany_toon

Amazing look to the new forum (well done Dom ) Looks like a lot of hard work went into it, hopefully it will prevent further arguments of pet/breeders defending themselves or their methods now that there are specific forums to share views for those who want it. A huge well done to everyone involved, hopefully it will attract more pet owners and mouse keepers as it is used more.


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