# New mouse-owner just typing down thougts



## Serena

Hi

I'm new and owning my first mice as you probably have read in my introduction.
So naturally I'm quite nervous about every little thing  and basically just wanted to share my thoughts and worries so this seemed to be the best category.
If the topic doesn't fit here, please move it where you see fit.

the reatment against parasites went well I guess. I managed to give each a drop of stronghold. Hope they'll be fine (saw one scatching (or grooming?) a little more than the other one and was worried... so now they got treated and i will repeat it in 21 days time, so if mites were the cause it should be sorted [it's stuff with a depot-effect for about 3 weeks]... vets-treatments can be quite costly ^^ paid 8€ (6,65£ or 10$) for each mouse and 22€ (18£ /28$) for the parasite treatment ^^).
I hope I geht better at fixating them... but honestly atm i'm just happy they were friendly and didn't try to bite me. they didn't seem too fond of being handled, but were nice enough for a beginner like me.
Now the first night is over. Both were quite active and used the saucer a lot.
Today one was chasing the other and mounting her (definitely 2 girls, triple checked...) and i heard teeth grinding. guess this was normal dominance behavior? didn't see any bites or scratches on any of them. Most of the time they seem to be fine. they're not chasing each other permanently.

I read you can hang a piece of your worn clothing (eg a tshirt) over a part of the cage to get them used to your smell. good idea or really bad one?

also i wanted to handle my roommates hamster today and the little critter wanted to bite me. she's never done that bevore. guess she doesn't like mice...
but since I'm the one providing the living mealworms... tough luck 

that's it for now ^^"
I hope my english isn't too bad since i'm not a native speaker, so please exuse the faults, or better: tell me so I can do it better next time 

best regards
Serena


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## Frizzle

You're English is just fine, I wouldn't have guessed it wasn't you're first language had you not said otherwise. Can't say I've heard about using a shirt, but then I haven't had to try taming, it just happens with handling. I have heard of people doing the shirt thing with new dogs, so maybe there is some truth to it. That's funny about the hamster. : )


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## Laigaie

Silly hamster! And yes, your English is better than some native speakers, so don't be concerned. Also, teeth-grinding is called bruxing, and is normally a happy noise. The mounting is definitely dominance behavior, but since they don't seem to be fighting about it, I wouldn't be concerned. They'll probably calm down with time.

Also, for US users, Stronghold==Revolution. They're both selamectin.


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## Serena

thanks for the comments 
I have to remember the proper terms. Barbering I already know, but bruxing is a new one.
It didn't seem serious to me and as far as I can see they sleep in the same nest (or at least the same corner of the cage), so should be fine. It's just that I'm new to the world of keeping small mammals and am a bit insecure ^^"

and yes, it's selamectin. I always forget that the names of the stuff are different in each country. :roll:


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## moustress

Revolution is a very effective treatment; I used it for years on all ages of mousies. It's a bit expensive, but I ordered it online to save money, and learned how to reduce the dose in proportion to the size of the mousie. It was good, though on all ages of mousie.


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## Serena

Today I wondered: Can mice run too much? One of the sisters is really active and on the saucer a lot.
the other one is more of a couch potatoe :lol:

this is what I feed them:

I mixed it myself because I'm not really convinced of the stuff they sell in the petstores. 
It contains budgie-food, canary-food and flaked cereals (spelt, oats and rye)
In addition to this they get a little bit of dry catfood and different vegetables (only small amounts), and, of course, hay.
I'm not really sure of how much I shoud be giving... don't want them to pick the best stuff out and leave the rest ^^


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## morning-star

I'd use less seeds and more things like oats, maize, barley, flaked peas etc

too many seeds will make them fat.

welcome to the forum!


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## Laigaie

I would increase the amount of flaked oats you've included in the mix, in order to decrease the fatty seeds percentage. Other than that, it looks like you found nice budgie and canary seed mixes.


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## Serena

ok, thanks fot the tip  
I'll put in more oats an hope, they'll eat it ^^
is 1 teaspoonful of mix per mousie and day ok?


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## Cait

No, mice eat more than you might think, although unlike rats they don't overeat so it's safe to fill their bowl and leave them to it.


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## Serena

You're confusing me a bit :lol: 
So I should include more oats/cereals and give less seeds, but I should feed them "ad libitum".
Won't they pick out the tasty (fatty) stuff and leave the rest? Or isn't that a problem since they don't overeat?
Sorry if that's a stupid question


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## Cait

Some mice eat the best bits first, but they will eat the other stuff too. It's just a case of learning how often to fill the bowl up so that they have eaten the majority of the food.


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## Serena

I think I got the food-stuff sorted ^^ 70% oats and other cereals and the rest seeds, veg and protein, and if I'm unsure if it is enough they get a few oats on top.

different problem: the last two days or so I saw one doe mounting the other, but not once, ore twice, it was like 5 or 6 times on one day :shock:. I know they sort their hierarchy trough tings like that, but isn't that an awful lot?
They seem to go along ok , the mounted mouse doesn't hide or act strange. And I'm still pretty sure, they're both girls ^^ they both look to me like the right picture on this page http://projekt-biomaus.de/Geschlecht.htm 
I guess, I'll be watching the situation. So far i see no missing fur or injuries. Could it get better when I get 2 more mice? It's planned in a week or two.


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## Laigaie

Adding more mice to the same-size area seems to make aggression issues worse, if she's actually being aggressive. If it's non-aggressive dominance, she may have dominance issues with the other mice as well. That doesn't mean it will escalate to aggression, but does mean that she may attempt to mount the new does as well.


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## Serena

When I get the 2 new mice, the 4 of them get a brand new cage, which ist bigger than the current one (80*40*47cm for 4 mice shoud be enough, I think).
I'll just keep an eye on the situation and separate the troublemaker if neccessary. Last night they seemed to go along fine, I hope it stays like that.


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## Serena

so, I haven't seen any dominance behaviour the past few days. They have the occasional sniff, but no fighting, everything seems to go smoothly. they use their saucer togheter and groom each other.
But I hear at least one of them making noises, but only while sleeping/staying in her nest. There are squeaks, not like shes being bullied (I guess if that was the case she would run away?), sounds more like she's having a dream or sth Oo
and not all the time, there are periods of several hours during which I hear nothing at all (they are in my room and I'm studying for an exam, that's why I have them next to me more or less 24/7)
When they are awake I can hear nothing. I listened really really carefully, but there are no respiratory noises. they are both active and don't look sick (nice coat, clear eyes...)
I know some of you have mice, that "talk" without having a URI, but I'm a little worried...


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## Frizzle

If you're worried, post some pictures, sometimes other members can point out symptoms of illness that you might have missed. Not to say you don't know what a sick mouse looks like, sometimes when you spend a lot of time with an animal you don't notice gradual changes. I'd just assume it was them being active, are you referencing the chuckling talk, or general squeaking? Also, are these the old mice or did you get the new mice already?


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## Serena

It is still only the two black (bad tan^^) mousies.
I hear the noises when they are in their nest. And then not always, just now and then for a few minutes.
I held them seperately right next to my ear and couldn't hear a thing.
I'll try taking some pictures, but I don't want to stress them too much 

EDIT: I succeedes partially 

Number 1:

































Number 2:

























not so easy to take pictures of them...^^


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## Autumn2005

Serena said:


> Number 1:


This is my favorite!


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## Frizzle

Eyes, bodies, coats, and tails look good to me; its probably just them romping and getting used to each other. When do you get the other two? And I agree, the first picture is really sweet.


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## Serena

I'm really glad you think so. The other two should come at the end of this week or next week.
And I know, this really is a forum for breeders, but I somehow like it better here than in the pet-forums. Probably because I can tell you I have petshop-mice without being scolded  Also I really would like to breed mice sometime in the future (probably even one of those two, i really love tans.), and already start the information gathering ^^ 
And I have found in the past, that most of the time, breeders (well, except mass breeders of course ^^) know best, how to care for the animals, since they need to have healthy stock in order to get good offspring. Pet-owners are more sentimental when it comes to housing the pets, and are not realistic about what the animal really needs. 
(In german boards, the consens is, you need a cage of 31*20*20 inches minimum for 3-5 mice, that's quite a lot)


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## Autumn2005

We tend to be a pretty friendly bunch here... Believe me, I was asking some VERY stupid questions when I first started, and no one yelled at me!


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## Cait

Serena said:


> And I know, this really is a forum for breeders, but I somehow like it better here than in the pet-forums. Probably because I can tell you I have petshop-mice without being scolded


Pet forums in general are a bit of a quandry. A lot of the members will, as you say, tell you that pet shop animals are bad and to get mice from a breeder. But then they disagree with breeding and/or showing. And as is life, you can't have it both ways. Show breeders are the ones who have been working to improve mice and who pet keepers get a benefit from in their animals...


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## Laigaie

Oh, I was never told to get mice (or rats) from a breeder. I was told I should be rescuing them! From shelters and rescue groups! As though that's a feasible option for all pet owners. :shock:

We're plenty happy to have pet owners around, so long as they can respect that there is a fundamental difference in the way a breeder considers his or her animals. No matter how attached I may become to individuals, I consider my overall stock in any decision. Crazy pet owners who think any animal with the sniffles needs to go to the vet, or that all breeding is bad breeding, not so much.  You seem to be going about things in a very reasonable and measured way. I applaud your desire to know more about the animals for whom you care, and to do the best by them that you possibly can.


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## Serena

It's nice to know, pet owners are welcome as long as they don't cause trouble 

Yes, rescue is always popular, too. And I think it's nice that there are people, that care for these animals. But it just isn't my cup of tea. 
Being told what to do with my pets... not so much a fan of either. 
In my opinion, the owner is supposed to care well for his/her animals, but euthanizing in a humane way isn't necessarily sth bad.
I like to keep my options open. And having mice from a breeder with a contract saying I can never breed from them (because they aren' suitable for breeding or for whatever reason)... well... don't like it. If it is a healthy, normal sized mouse, why should't I consider having a litter from him/her? 
I also understand the need of culling litters down. It's easier for the doe and the ones left can reach their full potential. And it's kinda silly to raise bucks if you don't have anybody who would want them (as feeders or pets).
I pretty much do the same with my guppys. If one is sick I don't try all sorts of medication (and it is really difficult with small animals. Can't do much testing, and when you see it's sick, it often is rather severe). They get euthanized immediately or I seperate them and try 1 or 2 things if it's one of my best breeders. Also I don't have a problem giving away the surplus as feeders or killing them myself. It is just impossible to keep every single one of them, and overcrowding harms the whole lot.

But I don't want this thread to end up as a debate on principles, I just wanted to express my feelings


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## Serena

Today the mice gave me a shock.
I was at home for a few days and my roommate looked after the mice.
When I came home, I found one of the cage doors open. And no mice in the cage!
Luckily they didn't hide properly. I found one in the haybag and one in my sneaker :roll: 
I hope I don't find any surprises they left me...


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## Serena

And I finally got my new mice and wanted to show them.
They're just pet-types, but cute ^^ Hopefully they settle in well. I treated them all for parasites, therefore the coat looks weird ^^.

















Doe nr 1- cute little thing, but I'm not sure what color she is. Dove perhaps?

















Doe 2, longhair. Dove too, or blue/chocolate-mix? I really suck with colours if it's not black or white :lol:









Nr. 3, doe, another black and I think tan.

and I got this lovely chocolate tan buck to see if I can stand the smell. I have an agreement that I can return him if it is unbearable, but I really want to keep him ^^








of course he's got his own cage 

EDIT: I replaced the links with a safe source


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## Frizzle

Dove is grey with PINK eyes, therefore neither of your first two are dove. Second mouse does look more brown then grey. Cute mice though!


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## Serena

Yes, I'm just not sure. The eyes seem a tiny bit lighter than what I'm used from my two blacks so far. 
In the end, the colour doesn't really matter, I would just like to know, what I've got.


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## candycorn

Whatever site you are using to host your first set of photos is trying to download nasty things to my computer. I suggest trying a more forum friendly loading page like photobucket.


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## Frizzle

^^^
I was getting popups and was going to suggest the same.


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## Laigaie

Looks like blue and pale chocolate to me. Cuties all around!


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## Serena

ok, the next time, I'll use a different hosting service
thx for the feedback 

EDIT: I replaced the pictures with a different source. I hope everythink is ok now.


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## Autumn2005

Serena said:


>


I LOVE this buck! He has such a deep tan belly! Gorgeous!


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## Serena

He certainly is a nice and handsome fellow ^^
I'm not so sure about the belly, though. He is way better than my black girls, but I still think, there's a long way to go.








I hope I get to pair him up with the black does and see what the babies look like.
Oddly, I don't mind his smell so much. Sure, he smells like mouse, but I don't find it particularly unpleasant. My boyfriend's comment was "he sure smells like a male mouse" :lol: 
Probably I have selective anosmia ^^ I can't smell intact male cats either (but pigs, not so nice smell ^^)


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## Autumn2005

Lol, there might be a while to go with that buck, but compared to what I have available to me, he's just drool-worthy!


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## Serena

A few more pics, if you don't mind 









That's the cage of the does. It is wood because originally I only wanted to keep mice as pets, and I think it's pretty. Hope it lasts a while.
If not I'll replace it with sth more durable









I also tried my DIY-skills and built my first wo "rubs".
The larger one is for my buck, the smaller one was the testversion to see if I do an ok job :lol: 
I'll probably use it for a pregnant doe or the juvenile males if I ever have some.









That's Wolfram in his new home. Some of the stuff is from the other cage, so it does smell a bit like home *g*
So far he's been in a wire cage, but it is rather big for one mouse and doesn't fit in my shelf.

I'm pretty sure, the new black one is preggo. She's starting to get a rounder belly and almost looks fat in comparison to the others. I'm not surprised since I've been told it could be the case and they would take the babies back if I didn't want them.
Now I'm just wondering if I should let her stay in the group or remove her and put her into the small box. She seems to get along well with the other mice, and I'm worried she'll be stressed out if being removed. :?


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## Serena

today's topic: slightly worried :|

One of my mousies seems to have a scratch in the nasal canthus of her left eye. 








It doesn't seem to be dramatic, but I'm kinda overly woried at every little thing ^^ 
She seems to be fine otherwise, nice coat, active, eats well, and I listened for resp. noises, but despite some noises when I irritate her there is nothing, she sounds just like the others and isn't breathing funnily (funny? not sure 'bout the grammar...)

















and I wonder:
Is it normal for longhaired pied mice to have spots like that or could she be variegated?








the edges are not as clear as the other spotted mousies.


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## moustress

Is that last photo a tri/splashed?

Your meeces look generally okay, and I can see that you have put a lot of thought into their housing. I am concerned by what I see as a lack of condition in most of them. the coats are rough instead of shiny, and the eyes look a bit strained. The chocolate buck you posted on Sunday looks especially out of condition. Is there something in the environment that could be causing this?


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## Serena

hi moustress, thanks for your feedback

i'm not sure what the last one is. I thought normal pied, but the markings look so different from the short haired mouse.

They only have been here for a week, so I'm not sure if it is sth here or still from the previous owner or transport. I try to do everything right of course. the cage hast good ventilation, they get good food an fresh water every day, I treated them for parasites, I can't really think of sth to do differently
The black ones are nice and shiny as in the last pictures, I'm just not sure about the other ones. Behaviour-wise they all seem fine, they snuggle and sleep together, they run around, use their saucer, shred the egg cartons... but I'll definitely will keep a close eye on them.
The buck already is a bit older, but I took him anyways, since I wanted to know if I could cope with the smell. Behaviour is, as far as I can tell, normal, he eats well, poo looks ok, so there is nothing specific I coul pinpoint to be off.


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## Serena

almost a month gone and most things seem fine.
the buck is a little concern of mine (ear scratching), but i have one more plan to try and hopefully it'll get better. If not I will consider replacing him with one of his sons (just a week old atm).

I really should stop reading the german boards. I'm astonished, how narrow minded many of the people seem to be.
I always come across sentences like "no serious breeder would consider just killing healthy animals because it is cheaper and easier than neutering the bucks and/or looking for good homes", 
"knocking the mouse against the edge of a table is cruel and it takes the mouse several minutes to die",
"longhaired mice and rex/texel are deformed breeds and shouldn't be bred, so are dominat reds"- I own a longhaired mouse and can see nothing wrong with her (and I would love to have rex some day). they say the get ingrown hairs and inflammation, and sensory overload due to too long whiskers (and funnily enough, even if the whiskers have anormal length they are considered a deformed breed Oo) and always have eye problems,... i just can't believe that to be true since i have seen so many nice and healthy looking mice of those breeds here. but well, you mustn't ever use plastic in your tanks either  (with rats you seem to be allowed to use it, no reason given...)
I really, really love this board!

I don't know the legislation in Britain or the USA, but here it says (analogously) you only may kill a vertebrate "with a reason" and only people "who posses the knowledge and the ability" may do so and you have to stun the animal before killing it.


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## Cait

Serena said:


> I really should stop reading the german boards. I'm astonished, how narrow minded many of the people seem to be.
> I always come across sentences like "no serious breeder would consider just killing healthy animals because it is cheaper and easier than neutering the bucks and/or looking for good homes",
> "knocking the mouse against the edge of a table is cruel and it takes the mouse several minutes to die",
> "longhaired mice and rex/texel are deformed breeds and shouldn't be bred, so are dominat reds"


I'm not sure that it represents all German breeders - I have seen some nice mice from German breeders in person that descended from British mice they bought, which I doubt they could have produced for long without culling. Conversely, I had a German lady ask me about culling (in person, at a show) and when I explained about CO2 she genuinely told me that 'gassing' the mice was out of the question because she was German and didn't like the historical association that it conjured up for her.

As for longhaired, rex and dominant red, I haven't come across any health problems apart from reds getting fat easily. If that's a deformity then I have a problem :lol:

As for the method of culling mentioned, if the mouse doesn't die instantly, they're doing it wrong. I won't say any more here outside the culling forum except that what they have said isn't true.


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## Serena

you are probably right and it is just the pet owners and most communicative people, that write in those boards, but i haven't found one that seems to be much different.
It is just annoying sometimes to always read the same stuff -.-


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## Cait

I think any show breeder (and probably feeder breeder) who goes online and reads most forums feels the same, because it tends to be that the forums are populated by pet keepers. There are two sides to everything, I'm sure we all agree, the problem is when people tell you that only their way is right and that your way is wrong or 'evil'. Luckily this forum is a bit different since it was set up for breeders. Hopefully we are a bit more open minded here.


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## Malene

It's almost the same with danish boards. The majority of rodent keepers here are very anti-culling *sigh*
I do ocasionally see eyeproblems with my astrex/texel youngsters though (because the curly hair can irritate the eyes), but it always clears up about weaningtime.


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## Serena

I'm a little sad.
I really love my mice and feel like it's the right hobby for me, but the comments i get get me frustrated sometimes.
Yes- I understand mice are not very common pets.
yes- I do know mice smell (i have a nose, too you know... although, i think bucks smell a bit like burnt popcorn...)
I really try to keep few bucks (4 atm, 2 possibly to be neuterd or culled), and not so many mice in total, my door is closed during the day and most of the time i'm home and I don't think they smell that much atm. 
there's just that bloody heatwave right now and it is unbearably hot (up to 35°C some days) and at night I keep my windows and sometimes my door open, because otherwise I just cannot sleep (high sleeper bed and the heat gathers there... it's almost midnight now, raining outside, windows open and the thermometer still says 30°C)

My roommate had a friend over tonight, and her comment was "oh, I can smell the mice" (no disgusted tone to it, just a statement)
I was not supposed to hear that (they woke me up with their chatter), but it still hurt a little...

I probably will have to get rid of 1 or two more bucks/ have them neutered. Maybe i should stick to just the choc tans and not play around with the argentes as I intended to...


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## Cordane

I know that can get annoying. My mum use to comment on the smell every time she came to visit. (I have two cages in the living/study/kitchen area and 4 in my bedroom). Though she stopped pretty quick when I started to bring them out and let her play with them. She had them when she was little so she just adores them. 
I would say "ignore the comments" but it never seems as simple as that. When you have animals, there will always be a smell, even with cats and dogs. 
I have 4 bucks as well though one is almost 2 so he seems to mark less. I have found putting a little bit of cat litter under their main bedding can help. I avoid the clumping stuff.

The smell comes with the territory, if that person is really that bothered by the smell, she would say worse or not even come inside. Maybe she secretly loves mice like my mum?


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## Serena

Thanks. I already feel a bit better 

I don't think most of the people have a problem with the mice as animals, but with the smell.
My roomie is a little sensitive, too. but she's complaining about clean waterbottles on the kitchen table, too, because it is "mouse stuff"... 
If I lay horsestuff there, everything would be fine ^^
Or a few pieces of bedding on the floor. I try to be careful and not mess up the whole appartement, but sometimes you just miss a spot or a piece of hay gets carried around on the bottom of the shoe. I quess I have to be even more careful and get som air-fresheners ^^ suggestions anybody?


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## MojoMouse

It's been very interesting reading this thread - I hadn't seen it before, and it's nice to have some background on your mice ownership, as well as your different comments about all sorts of things. 

As far as air fresheners, it's best not to use them in your room where the mice are becasue it may irritate their respiratory systems. In the rest of the apartment it wouldn't be a problem, but personally I think most air fresheners smell so bad I'd much rather the smell 50 male mice! :lol:

Having the windows open should help, though. This is the best option, especially if it's warm there at the moment. I'm sure you're room mate will be fine, especially if she's an animal lover anyway, or at least, into horses.


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## Cordane

My Dad doesn't complain, I'm very thankful. His theory is, if he doesn't have to do anything for them, I can have them. Plus they don't take up much room. I swear he likes them, he has a good laugh when they do something a little silly. Like one of my females, while she is on the wheel, she runs so fast it almost looks like her back legs cant keep up with stepping so they kind of hop. The first time Dad saw this, he pointed at her and said "Steph, your mouse is doing the bum bounce!" Silly Dad.

I know that feeling, I use some shavings on occassion, its my back up bedding. That stuff gets everywhere. It sticks to my clothes and I can't help but drop a few bits. I get the vacuum out after every cleanin, its becoming a habit.

Mojo, I agree, I would rather 50 male mice smell than the smell of an air freshener. My mum has this lovely rose petal smelling stuff which is nice but thats the only one i Have found that I like.


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## besty74

and i thought i was strange liking the smell of mice , but now i know others do too.lol.


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## Seafolly

I missed this entirely. This is actually a big factor in my feeling stuck with mice right now. My parents are very vocal about the mouse smell. I don't live with them but they do visit and they comment freely. Sometimes I visit them and have to take the mice with me. I think the problem is they're so used to my rats who really didn't smell much in comparison. Anyway, my issue is I only have one buck and four females (the two older ladies died recently  ) and it seems like the smell from the buck is too much for anyone who visits. The females are fine. No one ever notices the female tank. But without my buck I can't breed anymore. I also don't know anyone with mice so I couldn't borrow one.

Point is, I feel your pain! But at least now, at the end of August, the windows are wide open and the heat isn't bad.


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## Serena

I'm so sorry for your 2 girls  I hope the rest are doing well

atm I have the windows open all the time. I don't find the smell bad actually. I like a little bit of "mouse musk" ^^
Oddly enough, I can smell a noticeable difference between the different bucks. I have two, that smell strong (agouti and argente brothers, but the agouti has hat a castration-chip and should be neutered in a few weeks time), one that smells hardly at all (the new one I bought, 7 weeks old), and 2 that smell a little bit (the ones I bred myself, 7 and 13 weeks old).
I wonder if selective breeding can lead towards bucks that don't smell that bad, but are still fertile.

My sensitive roommate is out of the country atm, and the other one likes small mammal (she has 2 rabbits and a hamster ^^), so I still have a few weeks to figure things out.
I'm just not sure if i should get rid of the smelly buck asap and count on his offspring to continue my "program". I have 3 argente bucks out of this litter. Dificult decision...


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## andypandy29us

I keep my 9 female mice in my living room ... neither me or my daughter can smell them and most of my friends dont complain when they visit but my parents always moan about the smell ... but they come from a child free pet free house so they just seem to be sensitive ... Im getting 3 more mice soon hopefully who will join my other girls ... hoping parents wont notice them or ill be moaned at again ... lol and ive been left home for 22 years


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## Seafolly

It's funny how some males don't smell much! I had a pet store male a couple of years ago that didn't smell. At all. I had no idea how good I had it.  Good question about it being genetic...I wish I knew. Perhaps if they're less territorial they'd mark less, therefore potentially something that could be bred?

I know what you mean. I've been thinking about breeding another litter, finding a home for the dad, and hoping one of the sons smells less. : /


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## Seafolly

moustress said:


> Revolution is a very effective treatment; I used it for years on all ages of mousies. It's a bit expensive, but I ordered it online to save money, and learned how to reduce the dose in proportion to the size of the mousie. It was good, though on all ages of mousie.


Sorry to bring up an old thread but...how did you reduce the dose? I'm receiving a tube for kittens tomorrow and am unsure of how to make it mouse-appropriate.


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