# Help ID these pups. Poorly splashed or what?



## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

I have these 2 pups popping up in a litter - can someone tell what they are, i think it's pretty exciting and would like to get more pups like that, with more of that dark patching  Will there be tricolour if i add broken to them?




























All the pups in the litter:


















Mom & dad kan be seen here (Charat & Indira): viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6462

The pedigree of the litter: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/li ... KuldI1.jpg

Hope you guys can help me ID that unusual marking


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

Looks like black splashed. Are their eyes pink? To make a tri-color you need piebald + splashed + c-dilution (except for c^c).


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

bethmccallister said:


> Looks like black splashed. Are their eyes pink? To make a tri-color you need piebald + splashed + c-dilution (except for c^c).


Their eyes looks pink atm. And yay! Splashed 

So if i mate them to some of my black eyed bones and some broken mice i should end up with tris?

That would be very nice, i haven't heard of any splashed or tri-colour in Denmark so i'm very excited


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm new to the world of Splashed and Tricolor myself so I'm not exactly sure what to recommend but it sounds like you have all the genes needed to get to where you want to be with a little diligence. I'm working along side you in creating a splashed/tri line right now also. Keep me updated on your progress please


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

bethmccallister said:


> I'm new to the world of Splashed and Tricolor myself so I'm not exactly sure what to recommend but it sounds like you have all the genes needed to get to where you want to be with a little diligence. I'm working along side you in creating a splashed/tri line right now also. Keep me updated on your progress please


Will do, and thanks 

Can i see some of your splashed/tri's :?:


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

You would only need to add piebald genes. The mice, if they are splashed, already have a c-dilute, or the splashing wouldn't be viseable.

Although, I do not think these mice look splashed. I am not sure what they are, but their colours are strange. I have never seen a mouse that is splashed, in that colour. It makes me think something else is the culprit.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Rhasputin said:


> You would only need to add piebald genes. The mice, if they are splashed, already have a c-dilute, or the splashing wouldn't be viseable.
> 
> Although, I do not think these mice look splashed. I am not sure what they are, but their colours are strange. I have never seen a mouse that is splashed, in that colour. It makes me think something else is the culprit.


Doh, you're right - i knew that since i have been reading about splashed and tricolour since yesterday 

If they're not splashed, what are they then? I can't find any other genes that make such markings, but i might be an google-idiot  :lol:


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

It's possibly a germ mutation.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Rhasputin said:


> It's possibly a germ mutation.


What's a germ mutation


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

If I recall roland's findings correctly, splashed is visible on pink eyed pups (the pe dilution...dove or example), but dissappears as they mature. That does look like splashed markings....but **shrug**


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

It -does- look like splashed. I guess I have never seen splashed on any PE animals, except for that mouse you gave Ann, Stina. Which, as an adult, had no viseable splashing. Perhaps that is the explaination. Can you post the pics of (rain I think she named her?) on here as a baby? Maybe they are similar.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

I have to make that mating again when mum is ready after weaning these pups. have to see if there will be more of these cute babies, and hopefully some black eyed


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Supposedly Rain can't be pe.......Cindy said there is no pe in her line...but **shrug** Her splash was also never even close to black....being only slightly darker than the rest of her...

3 Week Old Mouse by CSBeck, on Flickr

IMG_0715 by CSBeck, on Flickr


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Stina: that's a pretty mousie :love1 She has the sweetest face


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

Stina said:


> If I recall roland's findings correctly, splashed is visible on pink eyed pups (the pe dilution...dove or example), but dissappears as they mature. That does look like splashed markings....but **shrug**


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

I was thinking - could these babies be pink eyed due to c-dilution? Then they would genetically be Pp and not pp.

They do have both himalaya and beige fox behind them.


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

lindberg4220 said:


> I was thinking - could these babies be pink eyed due to c-dilution? Then they would genetically be Pp and not pp.
> 
> They do have both himalaya and beige fox behind them.


Hi Sofie,

it would be helpful to get some information about the pediegree. Who gave you the the parents, do you know what they are genetically?

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Roland: Here's the pedigree: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/li ... KuldI1.jpg

Dad is from a sweedish breeder named Birgitta Gutke, and moms line started with 2 sweedish mice from R8ttor's 

I'm not sure wether Indira, the mother of this litter, is dove or silver - there is blue in the line behind her so silver could be an option.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

The pink eyed pups are actually getting more brownish now, when their fur grows faster  I took some pics today both with flash and in daylight witout flash:

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/li ... tter%20I1/


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

These sure like splashed to me; I've had a number of splashed tris with red or ruby eyes.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

It looks like 2 males and i will keep both af them, one will be breed back to mom and maybe i'll breed the other one to a sister.

And then of course get some broken marked mice to breed to the splashed ones, to try and make some tricolor


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Question: how does the splashed gene affect the tan gene?

The 2 pups have tan/fox bellies, i can't determine the colour on their bellies yet though. Won't c-dilution change a tan belly to fox?


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

I believe if the c-dilution is c^ch or chinchilla then the bellies will be fox, other then that with just the a^t gene then the bellies will be tan even if they are very very light tan.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

bethmccallister said:


> I believe if the c-dilution is c^ch or chinchilla then the bellies will be fox, other then that with just the a^t gene then the bellies will be tan even if they are very very light tan.


Thanks 

Then they should become tan, the c-dilution behind them is c^h (himalayan great grandfather) & c^e (beige fox great grandmother)


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

nope they can be fox if theres himi in them any c dilution will make them fox


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Yeah, any c-dilute creates fox on a mouse with a^t...doesn't have to be c^ch.

If they have pink eyes though they can't be c^e/c^h. c^e creates black eyes.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Ok thanks both of you 

Next question: If any c-dilution changes tan to fox, the babies can't be splashed if they turn out to be tan, right?

If that's the case here, what would you think they could be :?:


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

Both tan and splashed are dominant and on separate locus's, just as himi is also a separate locus. I imagine you'll end up with a dove mouse with the black splashes and a fox belly. Here is pictures of my angora burmese splashed fox...


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Gotta love those deep ruby eyes!


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Aww, that is one gorgeous mousie, Beth :shock: i wanna steal that little beauty right down my pocket and sneak away before you know it's gone


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

Thank you! He and his two brothers were bred by Rhasputin. They are so sweet and cuddly. This is Wolfgang, he just had a litter with my himi piebald so hopefully I'll be posting a thread about his hires in a day or so. I've only got angora bucks to work with at the moment and I'm trying to create a line of angora's so this is the first step in creating angora carrier does and there were 8 females born!

I love his sweet beautiful face


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

He really does have a sweet little face, he kind of reminds me of my almost 2 year old male Jawbreaker which is a himalayan shorthair. He has the same gentle look in his face :love1


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

Stina said:


> If I recall roland's findings correctly, splashed is visible on pink eyed pups (the pe dilution...dove or example), but dissappears as they mature. That does look like splashed markings....but **shrug**


On a p/p C/* the Spl/* is visible, before the fur matures, but never as dark as that dots shown here. It looks like this:









In addition the pedigree of the babies tells nothing about Spl/* in the forefathers, or did I miss something? As far as I know the Spl/* is quite new in Skandinavia and Liselott was the first to introduce them there. Do you have mice from her?

What is the sex of both babies? If I would be you, I would try to breed them to each other or to the parents. If you have a new germline mutation, this would be the best way to fix it.

Keep us informed please, very exciting!

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Roland: I don't know who Liselott is so i don't think any of my mice are related to hers.

The babies looks like boys both of them, so i was planning on mating one with mom and the other to a sister. I was wondering why none of the parents are having these splashes too, so maybe it's some sort of ressecive splash-like gene popping up?

Any advice regarding this and the best way to investigate it is appreciated  And of course i will keep you posted


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

New pics, the babies opened the eyes now and all the greyish/brownish ones have pink eyes and most of them are tan, only 2 selfs (a black and a dove.) So i guess they are black and dove and that the doves are brownish because of the chocolate gene they carry. The 2 males with the black spots still have them and look very pretty 

Pics of the litter, with flash:


















Without flash:









The 2 blackspotted males:




































Oh and some bonus pics of the lovely momma mouse Indira:




























Maybe i will add some new pics of the daddy mouse Charat later


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

It looks like mom might be splashed too? Or did you already know that? :shock:


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Rhasputin said:


> It looks like mom might be splashed too? Or did you already know that? :shock:


I always thougt she was a mealy dove or silver tan :?: Also she never had splashes as a baby, she was very light, almost white:

She's the one in the middle on top of the others









2 weeks old here:









11 weeks old:


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

It's possible that she's a really really poor splashed. . . And her babies (that look splashed) are also extremely poor splashed. Although, if she were, you'd figure more would have popped up if you've bred her before. Maybe she's had splashed babies before, but they weren't visible?

Hmm. . . Just brainstorming here.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Rhasputin said:


> It's possible that she's a really really poor splashed. . . And her babies (that look splashed) are also extremely poor splashed. Although, if she were, you'd figure more would have popped up if you've bred her before. Maybe she's had splashed babies before, but they weren't visible?
> 
> Hmm. . . Just brainstorming here.


It's her first litter, but i will mate her again to one of her "wannabe splash" sons, when she's had anice break after this litter.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

The ones that look splashed have tan bellies? It looks like they are, though it's hard to see, but their ears look kind of orangelike it might on a tan mousie. If that's the case, it's a puzzle; a very, very interesting puzzle.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

moustress said:


> The ones that look splashed have tan bellies? It looks like they are, though it's hard to see, but their ears look kind of orangelike it might on a tan mousie. If that's the case, it's a puzzle; a very, very interesting puzzle.


Yep - both "wannabe splash" males are tan. Only 2 pups in the litter are self, the rest is tan...


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Most likely it's a 'sport' a genetic accident. :?: :!: 
If it isn't, it would be really, really cool! I wanted to breed blue tan tricolors when I first got my tris earlier, and then realized that that wasn't the way it worked. I've always believed that the tricolor and splashed mousies wer a product of genetic manipulation, and not a spontaneous mutation that was discovered by someone. Because of that belief, and reading I've done, I came to the conclusion that the material added was inherently unstable, and that many odd things were possible.  :shock: :?

So, I am very, very interested in this occurrence. I was told yellow/red tris were impossible, (  ) and that happened several years ago....now folks are producing all kinds of tris, from brindles as well as other colors. Exciting stuff!


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Well it would be strange if it was a 'sport' marking, that occured on two babies in the same litter, moustress.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

> I've always believed that the tricolor and splashed mousies wer a product of genetic manipulation, and not a spontaneous mutation that was discovered by someone.


umm....but it IS from spontaneous mutations at some point... The overall phenotype (appearance) can be influenced by "genetic manipulation" (if by that you mean line-breeding)...but you can't "make" splash with the gene not present and without a gene that makes it visible...you can't "make" tricolor without also adding a spotting gene. They are specific genes that work in specific ways...whether their workings are fully understood doesn't change the fact that they ARE mutations that were discovered by people.

Since there is more than one in this litter with a "splash" type appearance...there is likely something genetic going on...be it splash or something else. If I'd breed them with their mom and littermates as well as at least one completely unrelated doe.

are you calling them tan b/c they actually have tan bellies...or are you calling them tan b/c its the tan gene? Are their bellies tan or white?


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Moustress: I find it very exciting too  Don't think i could stop my self from exploring this even if i tried :lol:

Stina: they do have tan bellies and i just discovered that they do have a tiny bit of "splashing" on their bellies too


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

what color are the "splashy" markings on the belly?


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Stina said:


> what color are the "splashy" markings on the belly?


Same as the ones on their back. But much smaller - just a tiny spot on one and a very thin line on the other - and very hard too see on pics, i did take some pics but had to adjust brightness and contrast to get it visible. I'll try to take some new pics tomorrow in daylight, maybe that's better than flash


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

VERY interesting....so dark then? That would definitely make it not splashed if there are dark markings on a tan belly! VERY interested to see what could come of these guys from future breedings!


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

Stina said:


> VERY interesting....so dark then? That would definitely make it not splashed if there are dark markings on a tan belly! VERY interested to see what could come of these guys from future breedings!


Yep dark it is 

This is the one were it is visible in the flash from my camera:










Don't look at that awful chest spot, i hate that - ruins the pretty tan IMO  Unfortunately that chest spost is present on all danish tans :?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

There are a number of explanations other than splashed that could explain these two mousies. I'm just pulling out my favorite saw because this looks like it might be that kind of wood. It's more likely to be variegation, or brindling, or, I'm sure, a few other things that don't come to mind right now. And I know I've reopened a can of worms...I will try not to sound like a hammer for which every problem looks like a nail. It's silly, but that doesn't necessarily mean it not true.

This just gets weirder and weirder! Dark color on the tan belly.....there must be some way these things can occur naturally...sport or not...of course, laboratories are tuning out different types of transgenics, and many of the varieties we now breed came out of labs over the last 60 or so years...

Whoa!- just saw the last post when I tried to post this! Sounds like there's a new variety coming up out of Denmark!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

> Yep dark it is


Wow! OK...so definitely not c-diluted....and definitely not the known splash gene! It doesn't *look* like any brindle or other marking I've ever seen before...so cool!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I find this whole thing riveting.


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## lindberg4220 (Oct 30, 2008)

New pics of the 2 males 

This is Decius:

















Vitellius:

















Also i keep all 4 females in the litter  The pics are a few days old, i'll take some new very soon 

Aelia, dove tan:









Faustina, dove self:









Flavia, dove tan:









Drusilla, black tan satin:


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## nuedaimice (May 26, 2010)

I have a stupid question... Are the markings on these mice almost identical?

I'm inclined to believe that it is somehow a somatic mutation and that the two mice are, possibly, twins? It is highly improbable in any case, but the only thing that I could deduce logically given the current facts... and what I'm seeing with my own two eyes. Even identical twins can have slight differences, and the fact that they are the same sex would make the possibility of being identical twins likely.

I'm very interested to see what they produce, nonetheless.


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