# Baby Rainbow!



## JustMouse (Jul 23, 2010)

Our first litter is now around a week old and the little ones are finally showing their colors... which are kind of baffling. Their mom is a grey tan and their dad is a brindle. Somehow, we got two broken brindle bucks, one unknown broken buck, three brindles (2 bucks 1 doe) an unknown brown colored doe, and what looks like a black tan doe!! 
So here is our rainbow of babies 










Some broken brindle bucks:


















Unknown broken color buck (this one is CRAZY, and his name is Particle Man... we're probably keeping him):









One of the three brindle fatties:









Mystery brown doe - she's got bands, but she's also.... brown:









Some kind of tan:









Any thoughts on the colors would be greatly appreciated 

edit: we believe our "unknowns" to be this:
brown is either very poor brindle or brindle agouti, then there is a broken black (or black tan) and a black tan (orange belly fuzz starting to come in!)


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Your "mystery doe" is a very poor (over-marked) brindle. The others you're not sure about are black.

Why are they all so very thin?

This is what truly fat mouse babies of a similar age look like:



















Slightly less-fat than that is still healthy, but all the ones you've posted are very thin, which means either the mother isn't producing enough milk or high-quality enough milk (which can be related to diet), or that the babies for some reason aren't eating properly. Have you given the mother any supplements like scrambled eggs?


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## JustMouse (Jul 23, 2010)

We give them eggs, veggies, and cheese temporarily every day. Their mom nurses them all the time. I personally think that they look perfectly healthy, they have fat little bellies and rolls above their legs. The broken and black tan babies do seem small, but they were probably born smaller. These babies are only six days old and it is their mom's, and our, first litter! Both parents are pet store mice, but very healthy and large.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

The babies above were a couple days older than yours, I think. I can't remember for sure.

She might be nursing them but not producing enough milk. There's really no way to know for sure since you can't measure her milk production (mice are too tiny). I wouldn't breed from her or these babies anymore due to this. You might also want to cull the smallest ones to see if that helps. They're almost invariably grow into small adults, either way.


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## JustMouse (Jul 23, 2010)

Hmm... well I think that they look and act healthy. Mom is chubby and often has little wet circles around her belly. I have bred rats in the past and I think that these pups appear to be perfectly healthy. Yes, the blacks are smaller than the others, but having come from pet store stock and being their mother's first litter, I think that smaller size is expected. The babies have full milk bellies whenever we check on them, and considering that their mother is being fed properly and living in a clean cage, the babies should be fine.
The only thing I can imagine would actually be a problem in their development is that the mother / litter is cohabiting with a couple of other females, but there doesn't appear to be a problem with any of the does.

I am not trying to argue with you or discredit your opinion, I just think that, having seen the babies in person, they are fine. The blacks have some catching up to do and may need culled, but we'll have to wait a few days.

edit:
And, thefunmouse has day-by-day photos of a baby mouse (http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/daybydaybabies.cfm), and ours are seemingly right on track. Also, this litter originally had thirteen in it, which probably has affected their original size and first couple of days. I can't believe I didn't think of that sooner!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Any problem relating to size is almost certainly physiological and thus likely (though not certainly) heritable. If you keep and breed these babies, I bet you a dollar they'll be small, thin adults and produce small, thin babies.

The Fun Mouse has been a sore topic on this forum before, so I won't presently comment on Barb, her site, or her mice. 

edited to clarify my comments on Barb!


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## JustMouse (Jul 23, 2010)

I think that the babies that you posted are obviously older than ours, and obviously come from established show lines. We are just now beginning to breed and are doing everything correctly. We have made sure that our litter was small enough, fed the mother a high protein high carbohydrate diet, kept their cage clean... their father is a very large buck (the length of a hand from base of palm to tip of fingers, not including tail) and their mother is above average in size as well. If the couple that appear slim remain this way, we will cull them. When we keep a couple of these babies, if they remain small or appear sickly, we obviously will not breed them.
I think that as an established breeder who has gotten very lucky with their lines and hasn't used pet-store mice ever, it is difficult to see this from our viewpoint. These babies are being cared for properly, surviving, and are good examples of their age. Only one or two of these babies will ever be bred, and they will be the very best examples of what we have produced. This is the beginning of a project for us, and culling our very first litter simply because the babies are not perfect would simply be taking one step forward and two steps back.
I do value your opinion, you obviously know what you are talking about, but I think that an imperfect litter at this point in our project is expected. The only thing that we can do is properly care for the mother and remove those that do not flourish. As of now, there are some noticeably larger and smaller pups, but as they were off to a rough start with 13 littermates (who were swiftly cut down to eight), I think that we must not expect the worst but rather hope for and progress toward the best.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

JustMouse said:


> I think that as an established breeder who has gotten very lucky with their lines and hasn't used pet-store mice ever, it is difficult to see this from our viewpoint.


You're wrong in your assumptions. I've bred dozens of petstore mice (I started out with petstore mice when I was 15) over the years, and many were thin like these. The ones who were thin were mostly euthanized but the remainder were not bred from. Within 2 or 3 generations the remaining mice were already gaining in size and having larger, healthier babies. I can find you some old pictures if you like.

If you're still dead-set on breeding these mice I'd breed only the largest male to the largest female (both brindle in this case), without regard to color because whether for pets or show (or food, even) size and condition are more important than color at this point.

I somehow missed that this was your very first litter. I can barely remember what that's like. I didn't mean to discourage you, sorry. I had thought I was talking to somebody who had bred lots of brindle litters. Sometimes my head is thicker than even I realize.


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## JustMouse (Jul 23, 2010)

Please excuse this novel of a reply:


Jack Garcia said:


> You're wrong in your assumptions. I've bred dozens of petstore mice (I started out with petstore mice when I was 15) over the years, and many were thin like these. The ones who were thin were mostly euthanized but the remainder were not bred from. Within 2 or 3 generations the remaining mice were already gaining in size and having larger, healthier babies. I can find you some old pictures if you like.


This is what I'm saying. Petstore mice aren't going to look great as babies always. But you, having bred from petstore mice and having created larger mice over generations, must understand that our first breedings will not be mice of the highest quality. I also think that the babies being a little small at this point necessarily means that they will be small adults. When I bred rats, the babies that were smaller at first often ended up very large, very healthy adults. If we did not cull whatsoever and kept smaller mice, that would be one thing, but I think that the brindles may just be predisposed to being "chunky" like their father, who seriously is huge. Not obese or anything, just the size of a small rat 

And I understand, you having thought that we had already been breeding and then looking at these babies... well that would be kind of disappointing. But these are really our very very first babies, bred from our two largest and most sociable mice. I really appreciate your 
concern though  A lot of people do not know or care what they are doing and just breed to make babies. We are keeping a close eye on these little ones, and we really do want to make the best babies and mice that we can, so hopefully the couple of skinny ones end up chunking up soon :? because we especially like that black tan and broken black. And we don't exactly want endless brindles either... haha.

But I'm glad we have solved this conversation. Breeding is a process and we just have to be patient at this point - which was our argument all along! Having missed that this is our first litter basically explains everything. Haha


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)




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## JustMouse (Jul 23, 2010)




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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

JustMouse, your babies are very slightly underweight but still they look perfectly healthy to me 

The mice Jack posted pictures of are at least four days older than your babies (as they have a full belly of hair) and they are unusually chubby.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I'd like to see pictures of them in 4 days.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I can say that the black and tan one, as well as one or two of the piebalds, look to be in very poor condition. 
The rest look to be in acceptable condition, and one or two look to be in great condition. 

I would start giving your mothers more food. Your food choices sound good, but these babies could use some more fat in their milk!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I agree that the black tan and Particle Man are a bit runty, but Jack, I honestly can't see what you mean when you say they're much too skinny. They look how I would expect a healthy litter of eight to look.

Also Jack, you posted those same pictures on an older thread describing them as "some of the fattest babies you've produced or seen" so these are not good mice to use as a comparison. A picture of normal looking babies may have been more helpful.

Sarah xxx


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## The Village Mousery (Aug 1, 2010)

Jack Garcia said:


> I'd like to see pictures of them in 4 days.


lol your coming across agressive jack just a heads up 
i think the pups look fine, just what i'd expect from a large litter culled down to still a large litter in my opinion, as i had a large litter last week and culled down from 13 on day 3 to 6 i can see simalar things with these pups. I 'personally' think the litters still to big but i understand how your feeling just mouse. they are still healthly and thers always a runt in litters even when culled down just gets replaced with a bigger runt lol for a first litter mums doing really well. Just a tip if you want and can afford it kitten/cat milk is good for new mums.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Are you sure these aren't baby walrus.Wish all mine were percy puddins like this but I have my share of skinny minnies and it's very common in my brokens.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I think you're right Sarah. I think I see tusks starting to grow in! :lol:


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## The secret garden (May 13, 2010)

As im sure everyone is aware mice develop differently depending things such as diet. There is no right or wrong number to cull your litter down too if some people wich to cull down to 4 then of course there babies will be fatter it doesnt take a genuis to work that out but at the same time if you keep larger litters than yes the babies will be smaller but doesnt mean they are lacking any of the nutrients needed for healthy growth.

Myself, a winning show breeder here in the Uk, i hardly cull my litters espically not at pinky stage. I cull a few if its a huge litter but on average i let a mother keep 8 babies i have never ever had a problem. Naomi, Sarah, Loganberry, Seawatch Stud have all seen my mice and have had mice off of me and they are well developed and pleasing to the eye mice.

Your babies look fine and your doing nothing wrong, as long as they are healthy and well fed they will grow and make great adults to breed from lateer on. GIve them a chance, i do with mine before i cull them and well with being big headed im good at what i do.


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## JustMouse (Jul 23, 2010)

Thank you everyone. I do understand that a couple are smaller than the others, last night when checking on them, we decided that it may be due to the big bulldog brindles in the litter muscling them out. The brindles seem predisposed to being larger and chunkier like their father. I actually do have kitten formula which I had used to foster abandoned baby opossums, which should still be completely good. I'll give some to momma, so even if it is because the smaller babies aren't getting as much milk, it will be higher quality 

And we will likely post pictures of these babies in a few days, not because we need someone to police our upbringing of our babies, but because we are proud of them, their parents, and our efforts.

Thanks for the support, everyone!


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

JustMouse said:


> we will likely post pictures of these babies in a few days, not because we need someone to police our upbringing of our babies, but because we are proud of them, their parents, and our efforts.


JustMouse, you have nothing to prove to anyone and we'd love to see more pictures of your babies as they get bigger   
xx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks guys. I appreciate it, because I'm not being aggressive. It's good to know how you're coming across!

I posted these babies because OP said one of hers was fat, and the ones I posted _were_ fat (they're all grown ups now), not as a standard. God knows that if they were the standard, we'd have to feed all our mice lard! The ones OP showed look particularly thin to me, which is more common to some brindle babies than to other varieties (the same faults that cause brindles to develop tumors and obesity can cause poor mothering and small babies--it's a cycle with brindles). I don't breed brindle anymore, but I will have a few litters early next month and I will post pictures of them, day-by-day as they grow if I can remember. They're never this thin.


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## Fun Family Rodentry (Dec 1, 2009)

The mystery girl is definitely agouti brindle. Check this picture out. Top is a REALLY REALLY poorly marked agouti brindle, middle is a regular brindle and bottom is a poorly marked agouti brindle buck but you can see his striping on his side..


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

You forgot the picture.


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## Fun Family Rodentry (Dec 1, 2009)

Haha! yeeaaa did I mention i was blond??


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Here is another picture, just for reference.










Those are brindles with varying degrees of markings. I was trying to blow the fur back so you could see some were ticked. At 8:00 is clear gold and at 3:00 is mostly agouti.


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## Fun Family Rodentry (Dec 1, 2009)

Ok jack... just show off your brindles that are far superior to mine... I see how it is. :lol: :lol:


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I just can't win in this thread, can I?  I didn't mean to "upstage" your picture. I just thought it was a clearer example (all these mice are long dead, btw).


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

No matter what I do, I seem like an elitist when the truth is, I have a one-track mind when it comes to mice.  I really do appreciate it when people point out to me that I'm seeming pedantic or over-zealous.

BTW, Shuron, your and JustMouse's brindles are in fact far superior to mine because I bet they're still, you know, _alive_!


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Being alive is a very important thing when it comes to show standards.

Clearly Jack, your brindles are inferior because of this fault. :| 
:lol:


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

*Zing!*

:lol: :lol:


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## Fun Family Rodentry (Dec 1, 2009)

Haha jack chillax. I was just joking  Youll learn i dont take many things personally and im pretty easing going but im also a smart... you know what


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## CatWoman (Jun 19, 2010)

Not to stir controversy.. but I agree with Jack that there's an unhealthy looking thinness to several (if not most) of those babies. I actually feel qualified to comment on this, because I'm not even breeding the "quality" pet store mice in the tanks that are kept out front. I'm breeding out of the feeder tanks that they keep hidden in the back room. Talk about a lousy gene pool to draw from! :lol:

Obviously first generation pet shop mice are going to look thin compared to those ping pong balls Jack posted, but the unhealthy looking thinness I see isn't related to their thin bellies or smaller overall size compared to established show lines. I see a gauntness in their faces/heads because the fat pads typically found there are absolutely inadequate. That's not something I've seen as characteristic among my first generation feeder-bred lines, so I can't imagine it would be characteristic of the first generation "fancy" pet store lines.

In my experience, animals suffering from a lack of nutrition will show fat/muscle loss that clearly reveals their hip points, spinal vertebra, and scapular areas first. The fat pads/muscles on the head are always the very last to go when nutrition/emaciation is involved. In fact, if you look at the scales used to grade an animal's condition for the purposes of cruelty investigation, you'll notice that the poorest condition is defined mainly by the loss of fat/muscle on the head, because it's the last area impacted by poor nutrition. That's consistent across species, from horses to hamsters to humans.

In my experience, when you see the lack of fat pads and muscle on the head and face in an animal that isn't already completely emaciated (which these mice aren't), it's a sign of neurological diseases. That's not to say these mice aren't just runty, but it's definitely something to watch very carefully and make sure you're not rationalizing certain other characteristics because they're "just petstore lines" and it's the first generation of selective breeding.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thank you. I appreciate the validation. I'm never hesitant to stand alone with my observations, but it's always nice when I'm not the only one who sees something!

The inadequate fat pads, lack of muscle, and gaunt faces are exactly what I saw and was talking about, although I didn't have the vocabulary to fine-tune it and say it as eloquently and precisely as you have.


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## JustMouse (Jul 23, 2010)

Both parents of these babies are perfectly healthy unless they are carrying some sort of neurological problems, but we will definitely keep a close eye on them. Any signs of illness will obviously not be bred in to our lines. However, I do have to say that even since these photos were posted and taken the couple of gaunt looking babies have appeared to be catching up. Their little bodies are nicely rounded out and they continue to have milk bellies and grow. 
But we are going to monitor them closely still and watch for neurological problems. Having come from mice that appear to have been specifically bred for color, it is possible that line breeding or inbreeding could have caused a parent to carry some sort of disorder.
What are the symptoms of the particular issue you're talking about, besides physical symptoms, so we can keep a look out?


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## CatWoman (Jun 19, 2010)

Neurological problems can come with a cascade of symptoms, depending on which part of the brain is involved, and they can range in severity from quite subtle to completely debilitating.

In mice, it would be nearly impossible to identify some neurological symptoms, like changes in eye movements, unequal pupils, vision loss, hearing loss, confusion, tremors, "zoning out" and, to a certain extent, pain. I would expect the most easily identifiable symptoms would be physical and have to do with their ability to walk and climb effectively. A funny gait, falling off things a mouse shouldn't have trouble with, jerky limbs, jumping inappropriately (too much, too little, uncontrolled, into things by accident, etc.), walking in strange physical patterns, lacking awareness of the location of their limbs/body.

The trouble with neurological symptoms is that in severe cases, you may see an animal that is extremely wobbly, falls over all the time, has severe tremors, moves only in circles, and so on. Those cases are easy to spot, are absolutely heartbreaking to watch, and you would never, ever dream of breeding those animals. But with mild cases, you might see an animal that just comes across as... "quirky." A lot of times, those quirks can be cute as hell, and make you wish for a dozen more just like him/her!

People rarely realize there's anything wrong with my dog, unless I tell them. He has Canine Degenerative Myelopathy, which is a disease that's very similar to Multiple Sclerosis in people and is terminal for dogs. More often than not, people think he does this "adorable" thing with his legs just because he's excited. They will tell me how cute it is and a lot of people actually look forward to him doing it, because it's so "cute." Unless I explain it, they never know that it's actually a neurological deficit that's exacerbated by physical exertion. Interestingly enough, the symptom that prompted the vet visit that resulted in the diagnosis of CDM was the loss of fat and muscle on the top of his head.

In isolation, a LOT of neurological symptoms can be rationalized and explained away, while inadvertently overlooking the big picture that would be created by looking at them all at once. That's the main reason I thought it was worth bringing up.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Jack Garcia said:


> No matter what I do, I seem like an elitist when the truth is, I have a one-track mind when it comes to mice.  _alive_!


All though I think each to their own when keeping mice as a hobby for whatever reason,there is a valid point in your posts.In fact since I haven't showed for a while I have been more lax on what I've kept but this thread has re focused me and I'm going to have a sort out today.As far as the litter that is pictured goes,I think the two dark ones and the mainly white one are on the small side but not the rest.I look at tails as a sign of health firstly and again these look well covered although not big.If it was me and my mice I wouldn't grow on the three I have mentioned but would keep all the rest.It's not though so we will hopefully be able to see them grow and change into fully fledged mice.


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