# Genetics of current litter



## fuzzymom

So my blue girls did have their litters and the colors are interesting. I looked at them all closely and if both parents are satin, then the babies are satin as well, correct? Some of them also appear to be long-haired (some hairs are much longer than normal) I will take better pictures when I find my camera. As far as color, 5 females appear to be black selfs. 3 females and 4 males appear to be fox (black on top, white on the bottom). So can anyone shed some light on the genetics of these mice? Since the mothers are blue, then all these babies carry the blue gene, correct? And since I didn't get any blue babies, then the male (himalayan) does not carry blue.


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## Jack Garcia

All babies will carry blue. If both parents are satin, all babies will be satin since satin is a recessive trait.

If no babies are blue, the father is at/a ch/c D/D (a black tan who has one copy of himalayan and one copy of albino).

If any of the babies have long hair, the parents are also Go/go (carriers of angora) and/or go/go (angora). Sometimes you can have mice who are very poor angoras not show it very much. It's a hard trait to keep consistent.

The "fox" you see is actually a very poor (common) tan. This is because you cannot have a chinchillated himalayan (chinchilla is needed for real fox). I wonder why somebody (or a petstore?) bred a himalayan to a tan mouse in the first place.

What are your goals with this litter? The colors and coats you describe seem all over the place.


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## fuzzymom

I have no real goals. I breed for feeders and sometimes for pets. This litter will be kept as future breeders. Colors and markings make it interesting. I didn't find them at a pet store as pets or get them from a breeder. They were in with feeder mice. I simply told the man at the store to find me some interesting colors in their feeder bins and he found these 3. So the buck carries one gene for himalayan (what will that mean for the babies as far as the himalayan gene) and one gene for albino. Since none of the babies are albino, is it safe to say the does (blues) do not carry albino. I'm trying to develop a list of all the genes they carry. I have to admit that I have no clue as far as mouse genetics and color/marking varieties. I'm still learning. Thanks for replying.


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## fuzzymom

I will include pictures of the parents as well as the litter. I apologize for the poor quality of some of the pictures as I have lost my camera and had to use my cell phone.

Buck









One of the does









Same doe









The other doe









Litter









One of the females









Another baby









More recent pic of a baby


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## Jack Garcia

You're very welcome!

The buck is a himalayan satin angora.

The first female is blue satin angora.

The second I can't quite tell from the picture. She looks like a blue satin standard, but my hunch is that she's sister to the other blue and carries angora or is a very poor angora herself.

You might not realize it, but you do have goals: to breed feeders as healthy and happy (presumably) as possible. That's not a bad goal in and of itself.

If you were breeding for pets or show, I'd recommend trying to stay with one or two varieties and working from there.


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## fuzzymom

I believe the second female is standard. I definitely have goals for breeding healthy happy mice/rats but as far as colors I have no real goals until I know what they carry. You said the buck carries only one gene of himalayan and one gene of albino. How do you know he carries albino if none of the offspring were albino? And if he only carries one gene of himalayan is it a dominant gene or co-dominant gene? I know ball python genetics really well. Color and pattern morphs are either dominant, co-dominant, and recessive. I'm still learning how certain genes present themselves and how they are transferred to offspring. So the buck will display himalayan with only one gene. What happens if he has two, or is that even possible? (ball python genetics deals with two alleles with each gene. If they display the color/pattern mutation with just one allele it is either dominant or co-dominant. If it is co-dominant, it has a super form, which displays differently when both alleles are present.)


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## julieszoo

2 copies of the c(h) gene will give siamese


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## Jack Garcia

Himalayan is a heterozygous variety.


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## fuzzymom

So the offspring have a 50% chance of inheriting that gene?


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## Jack Garcia

From their father they will inherit either himalayan or albino, but not both.

Depending on what is present at other loci (such as recessive yellow or brindle), himalayan and albino can look identical so with petstore-derived mice you won't necessarily know for sure than an all-white mouse isn't himalayan.

It's good that you're familiar with ball python genetics but mouse color and coat genetics are some of the most complicated of any small animal. There are basically exceptions to everything.


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## fuzzymom

How do you know he carries albino though. Isn't albino recessive?


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## Jack Garcia

He doesn't carry albino. He displays it. Albino is one part of himalayan. The himalayan allele when homozygous doesn't make himalayan--it makes siamese (as Julie said).

"ch" is himalayan, which when homozygous makes siamese and when heterozygous with albino makes himalayan
"c" is albino, which when homozygous makes albino and when heterozygous with himalayan makes himalayan

All of this is assuming a black background with no other non-wild-type alleles present.

Your mouse is ch/c.


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## fuzzymom

*brain leaks out of ear* :lol: Haha, ok. I'm confused. Mouse genetics are no where close to reptile genetics at all! Thanks for helping me with this though. So the babies have inherited either an albino gene (or will they all have inherited it?) or the himalayan gene. They inherit blue from their moms but display black because blue is recessive. They will all be satin since all parents are satin, and some may be angora while others will not but even if they don't display it, they will carry it.

Now you said their "fox" markings are just poor quality tan markings. I have seen the tan on the internet. How does that color/marking gene work and transfer?


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## Jack Garcia

Yeah, the C- and the A- loci in mice are the most complicated, with many alleles on each that can interact (and counteract) with each other plus those in other places, all of which have varying degrees of dominance to each other.

Your babies each have one copy of himalayan (ch) or albino (c) from the father. They cannot have both, or they would be himalayan (ch/c) or albino (c/c). Also, you can only inherit one allele from each parent (so the daddy had to give one or the other). 

They each also carry blue (D/d) from the mothers.

The tan ones are also at/a (heterozygous for black self). The selfs are a/a (homozygous black selfs).

Tan (at) is dominant to black but incompletely dominant to agouti. It is epistatic to himalayan (and albino) and doesn't show up, which is why you didn't know you were dealing with tan in the father.

To have a "real" fox mouse, you need the chinchilla allele. This is on the C-locus along with himalayan, albino, beige, and a few other lesser common alleles. It is denoted cch (note: not ch, people get these confused but they're separate).

Since your baby mice all have either ch or c from their father, they can't possibly have cch from their mothers because then they wouldn't be black or black tans as they are. On top of this, chinchilla is a very uncommon color in the US outside of the show ring. I've never known anyone in the US have a "true" fox mouse from petstore-derived animals. They're all poor tans.

You're dealing with very poor representations of every color you're working with, so if you breed from them in the future you'll likely get lots of babies who you just aren't sure what they are. You're combining at least black tan, black, blue, himalayan, albino, satin, and angora. Each of these can have a slight (or major) effect on the others. I also wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that there are more common recessives (such as white spotting, chocolate, or recessive yellow) hiding in there, too. You wouldn't be the first person dealing with such a mess.

Have you read finnmouse? It's pretty much the most respected mouse genetics site out there and is a good read. I'm sure a Google search will turn it up.


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## fuzzymom

That's what I get for getting breeders from the feeding bin. :mrgreen: I would love to get my hands on some real quality mice but I don't know of any mouse breeders in my area and all you guys seem to be across the Atlantic. So the black selfs are homozygous while the tans are heterozygous. Slowly I'm understanding. Ok, so the buck is homozygous for albino or just heterozygous. You said he can either pass along the himalayan or the albino, so that would mean the albino is heterozygous....right? If tan is dominant over black, then how are homozygous individuals all black?

I will check out the site and see if I can learn about this so I don't drive you guys crazy with all my genetics questions.


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## Jack Garcia

The buck is at/a ch/c D/D go/go sa/sa. He could also carry other things, but you wouldn't necessarily know.



> So the black selfs are homozygous while the tans are heterozygous.


Yep. The selfs are a/a. The tans are at/a. If bred together, they could produce babies who are at/at but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference by looking at them. In other words, at/at and at/a look the same (black tans).



> Ok, so the buck is homozygous for albino or just heterozygous. You said he can either pass along the himalayan or the albino, so that would mean the albino is heterozygous....right?


The buck is heterozygous for albino AND himalayan, which makes himalayan (ch/c).



> If tan is dominant over black, then how are homozygous individuals all black?


Because black-and-tan is technically its own color, at. You're dealing with at (black and tan) and a (black).

I'm in Kentucky, which isn't too far from Virginia. If you can ever make it to Pennsylvania, there's a Rodentfest every May and October. Some of us travel from Georgia, Tennesse, and other places so may stop through VA. I know the people I usually go with sometimes stop in DC at least.

I'm also involved with the ECMA and know we have a few members in Virginia. Verminarium, I think, is one. We are planning to have a Southern show sometime in the next couple years (the President and I are both in the South, but our members are everywhere). Basic membership is always free so maybe you could find other breeders through there...I posted a link in the "links" section.


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## fuzzymom

Thanks. I took pictures of all the breeders I have right now. All are from feeder bins so their genetics are a complete mystery until they start popping out babies. I got a better picture of the blue satin standard female. Well as best as I could get with my phone. What is the D/D? I also got better pictures of the current litter, especially the belly. Thank you so much for helping me with this. Genetics fascinate me.


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## Jack Garcia

You're very welcome! 

D/D means non-dilute, ie not blue. d/d is blue (aka dilute). It is a recessive.


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## Cait

D means there's no blue dilution, d means blue dilution. So therefore D/D means the mouse does not carry blue at all. There are 5 main loci - A, B, C, D and P. I have a simplified genetics bit on my website, would you like the link?


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## fuzzymom

Oh ok. :mrgreen: So the does have which genes? One has d/d go/go sa/sa, but they do not have himalayan (ch) or albino (c), right? (so I think part of the himalayan genetics just clicked. If he carries himalayan but not albino, he won't display himalayan, but if he carries albino, it displays. If he is homozygous for albino, it cancels out the himalayan even though he carries it, and it won't display, but he can still pass it on. ??? Maybe???)









This is the standard female. She is satin but she is not long-haired (go/go) Not sure if she carries it though. I have not checked all the babies.

I'd love the link.


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## fuzzymom

<-- black self female (not the greatest picture)

Somewhat better picture of the belly of one of the tans.


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## Jack Garcia

Not exactly.

Himalayan is ch/c.
Albino is c/c.

If the mouse carries ch (C/ch) you can't tell. If the mouse carries c (C/c), you also can't tell. For our purposes, it's only when they're displayed together (ch/c, himalayan; ch/ch siamese; c/c albino) that you can tell what's going on on the C-locus. The C-locus is probably the most complicated of them all because there is a hierarchy of dominance with at least five (counting wild-type) alelles at play, and some alleles interact with others to give "intermediate" results. Himalayan is actually an example--it is "inbetween" a siamese (ch/ch) and an albino (c/c).

But I do fear that in my attempt to be thorough I've made it more difficult so I'm just gonna shut up now and hope somebody else can chime in. 

(As you can see, genetics fascinates me too!)


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## fuzzymom

Oh so himalayan is related to the albino. If a mouse is C/c then it carries the albino gene, does not display it, and does not carry himalayan. If they are c/c, then they are homozygous for albino and display it. They do not carry himalayan. The himalayan gene takes the place of one of the albino genes, right? So you will not have a mouse that carries two albino genes AND the himalayan gene. And you won't have a siamese ch/ch that carries albino, or will you? I know I make this difficult. It took me a while to understand ball python genetics, but once it clicked, it seemed so easy.


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## Jack Garcia

Exactly!


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## fuzzymom

Yay, I win! Haha, ok. So since he is ch/c, for each offspring, he will either give the ch or the c. So some of the babies will carry albino, some will carry himalayan. But in order to get more himalayans, I'd have to breed the offspring I have to either another himalayan or an albino? Thank you so much. I love this stuff!


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## Jack Garcia

Yes, but since you're also dealing with blue, you will probably get some blue himalayans (a/a d/d ch/c). They are a very light himalayan and can resemble PEW. Some will never get points so you wouldn't know they're himalayan by looking. I have found that they may or may not have darker ears, depending on how good the blue is underneath. So in other words, they can genetically be himalayan but not show it due to dilutions at other loci. This is why I said you were in for a mess!


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## fuzzymom

I can see that now. I really should get some mice with known genetics. I love the good quality tans, foxes, merles, brindle, banded, dove, fawn, lilac, red, chocolate, blue, siamese, himalayan, and a whole bunch more.


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## fuzzymom

I have another breeding group together right now. The male is agouti (I'm going to post pictures of them all), and the females are albino, agouti self, and black self. The agouti appears pregnant, so I'm excited to see what pops out.


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## Jack Garcia

That's why the best you can do is to breed the darkest pointed himalayans to the darkest pointed himalayans over and over. That's your best bet (if your goal is to get more himalayans), I think.

Even if you can't go to Rodentfest, near the first weekend of May, there will be a few people traveling north to PA. I know I will pass through the NOVA area but I think that's as close as I'll come to you. Some of us may be able to arrange a rodent train and get mice to you. We do it whenever we can. Just be in touch!

Look--I said I'd shut up and yet I'm still rambling! :roll:


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## Cait

Here is the link for the genetics page I mentioned, there are also some more links on that page that will help: http://www.fancymice.info/genetics.htm


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## fuzzymom

Well I keep asking dumb questions. :lol:

So how does the tan gene work then? How can I improve the tan gene in my mice, because I love that coloration.


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## Cait

Tan is a dominant gene, it can therefore be heterozygous (at/a) or homozygous (at/at). Show tans tend to all be homozygous as tan is bred to tan. If you have poor tans to start with it will be difficult to improve, but the mice with the best tans should be mated together.


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## fuzzymom

You said these babies were low quality tans but this is what they look like...

http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varie ... k_fox.html


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## fuzzymom

So the tan genetics are located on the A. at/a is tan, a/a is black self at/at is homozygous tan and since tan is dominant over black if it is heterozygous it shows up. So these babies that are displaying it are at/a. So when bred, they will either pass along tan or black self.


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## Jack Garcia

Unfortunately you can't do much to darken tan in the US without certain red-pigment modifiers which are held only by a few show breeders. And I don't think any of them adopt to people who breed feeders, either. I hadn't thought of that, but that might also be an obstacle for you in obtaining mice whose backgrounds are known. Unfortunately (again) blue and all C-locus recessives dilute tan away to a pale off-white like you have.

For reference, here is a chocolate tan from our last show:










And that's not even as dark as they can be. This is just one that was shown.


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## Jack Garcia

fuzzymom said:


> You said these babies were low quality tans but this is what they look like...
> 
> http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varie ... k_fox.html


Your babies can't be fox because they don't have the chinchilla gene (which is another allele on the C-locus). In its place, they have C and ch or c.


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## Cait

I have to admit, the 'fox' in that photo looks like a pale tan - either that or the lighting and/or my monitor are off. A fox should have a white belly with no tan anywhere (though a fault can be tan at the demarcation line. Here is a fox I bred many years ago by mating chinchilla to black tan and then mating the babies together:


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## fuzzymom

Oh ok.  Thanks a lot. So I guess we will have to see what other genetic surprises these mice have.


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## Jack Garcia

MouseBreeder said:


> There are 5 main loci - A, B, C, D and P.


We also have E in the US, so there are 6 for us. That's only a minor point, though.



fuzzymom said:


> Oh ok.  Thanks a lot. So I guess we will have to see what other genetic surprises these mice have.


Good luck! Keep us updated with pictures!


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## fuzzymom

I will. If only I had my camera so I could take better pictures of them, but my camera is packed away somewhere (mother in law did some house cleaning and decided my camera should go in the garage???) I'm also trying to decide what to breed the blue does to next. They will get a vacation after this litter but I like to plan ahead. The only other male I have is an agouti self. (with unknown genetics). So I could breed them back to the himalayan male or the agouti male. And the babies should be breedable by April.


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## ian

What is on the E locus?


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## Cait

Recessive yellow I believe...


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## Jack Garcia

Yes. E is full-color, and e is recessive yellow. It's a very common mutation in US petstores. I have always wondered why.


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