# Split from good Tri color post.... No photos allowed in NMC?



## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

SarahC said:


> I can't oblige with a picture of a winning tri. ** .Also if it's a distinctive animal as marked often are and it 's pic has been posted online and a judge has seen it then it can be disqualified.No such problem with plain janes.


Wait...back up. Do you mean to say it is against NMC club rules to post photos of the mice online and show them? I would love to know the history of this. It really explains why as an American, I struggle to find photos of good UK mice and never see many. It explains why mouse breeding in the UK seems so hush hush. What is the justification or history of the rule?? 
I personally had thought it was people keeping stuff from sight until they won...or just not being online as much. But it didn't really explain breeders who are members here and winners...but had not been posting pictures of their fresh winners. No doubt you want to show again of course! 
The rule seems crazy to me. 
Can someone explain more?


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## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

It makes sense to me. If you posted photos of the animals, and the judges saw them they would know who the owner and breeder were. It could lead them to be biased when actually judging. But I'm interested to hear what the NMC breeders say.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

A judge who would allow themselves to be biased because they know who bred the mouse is a bad judge. Dog show judges for example are often specialists and know everyone entering in the show and which dog is theirs, but if the show preference for friends thaey are gone. I can see trying to play it safe...but its pretty crazy to think trusted judges would be so biased.


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## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

candycorn said:


> A judge who would allow themselves to be biased because they know who bred the mouse is a bad judge. Dog show judges for example are often specialists and know everyone entering in the show and which dog is theirs, but if the show preference for friends thaey are gone. I can see trying to play it safe...but its pretty crazy to think trusted judges would be so biased.


I disagree. Judges are human, and bias isn't always in the exhibitors favor. And doesn't always involve friendship. I've only judged a few unsanctioned 4-H shows, but even then it is hard to look at an animal you know has won repeatedly, one that when in condition is unbeatable and not want to place it higher in the class than it deserves when it's coat or flesh condition are off. Rabbit shows have a similar rule, exhibitors are not to tell the judge which animal on the table is theirs and can be eliminated if they do. It is also hard to know the kids personally, and know which ones are actually working on their animals, who's putting in the time and effort and which ones are buying winning stock right before the show or letting their parents do the work and then place the second kid's animal over the first because that animal really is better even if the first kid deserves the award. I'm not saying I would place the class wrong but it is something you think hard about afterward when the kid who worked so hard is sad or crying because they didn't get any awards.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I never stated there is a rule.There is no rule.I was referring to marked mice only which can be very distinctive and individual.It's normal in any competition of this type for the judge not to know the exhibitor,rats,g.pigs,poultry,cakes,jam,it's all about being open,fair play.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

> Dog show judges for example are often specialists and know everyone entering in the show and which dog is theirs, but if the show preference for friends thaey are gone. I can see trying to play it safe...but its pretty crazy to think trusted judges would be so biased.


Actually judges are not supposed to judge their friend's dogs at all. The online world has made things complicated with many judges online talking to many people who do eventually show to them...but at least in AKC judges should not be judging dogs that they know personally.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm not sure where the idea of things being hush hush stems from either.I've posted pictures of my own animals,comments and opinions of my own freely on this forum as have other online members.Would it be right to go round taking pictures of other peoples animals and expressing my opinion on them which may differ to the owners on a public forum that they are not active on?Having just judged I will send my notes with my opinions in to the club magazine for it to be published.Not all of my comments will be singing the praises of every exhibit.Would it be right/fair of me to make those comments on a public forum.Of course not.My judges report and any accompanying pictures is available to read by anyone,anywhere in the world that simply fills in the form and subscribes.There is nothing hush hush at all.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

candycorn said:


> A judge who would allow themselves to be biased because they know who bred the mouse is a bad judge. Dog show judges for example are often specialists and know everyone entering in the show and which dog is theirs, but if the show preference for friends thaey are gone. I can see trying to play it safe...but its pretty crazy to think trusted judges would be so biased.


I don't think it's a case of bias from the judge. I'm not a judge yet but if I were judging a mouse I saw on the internet a couple of weeks previous I would judge it fairly and to the standard, regardless of whomever bred it. But if it was a good mouse and did well, people could quite rightfully say "you put that mouse up because the breeder was your friend." Yes, I could defend my decision and I'd know that wasn't the case, but I'd rather have no room for any doubt in anyone else's mind.



> It really explains why as an American, I struggle to find photos of good UK mice and never see many.


This is not why, it's simply because 95% of the top UK exhibitors are not active online. Out of the Top Twenty, which is the on-running leaderboard of the twenty exhibitors who have won the most points throughout the year, only five of those are actually active online


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

I think your point is fair enough, SarahY, at least in the case of marked mice which can be very distinctive. Personally I haven't noticed a general lack of NMC breeders posting pics of their mice. I've seen quite a few here.  Just not that many tris. However there are plenty of tri pics posted, which people discuss, so that helps a bit?


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## ekimsivad (Sep 20, 2011)

Speaking as someone who was an NMC judge several years ago, I know from first hand experience that they are beyond reproach (and before anyone jumps on me, I know you were NOT suggesting otherwise).

UK NMC judges put aside their bias and preference for certain varieties and I can honestly say that I have never walked away from a show thinking that anything dodgy has taken place on the judging tables.

One of my postings yesterday alluded to the fact that the NMC is perhaps the most honest and transparent small animal club I have ever been involved with.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

Very interesting.
I guess the idea of it being hush hush is the fact that the NMC website doesn't post show winners pictures. Coming from a dog showing background I found it odd that in show results listings...there were no pictures or links to any info on the breeders. 
I understand you are saying that most members are not online and don't have time to post pictures. Which of course is completely their choice and they have no obligation to do so. I also agree with you that you should not post photos of other folks mice if they don't want you to. 
I just find that odd. Dogs take way more time and energy and money than mice...but those breeders are online and post pictures frequently. So to me...it's a kind of odd. It's a different world I suppose. 
But without understanding why people and the club doesn't show pictures...it makes paranoid people like myself try and come up with alternative reasons why the "secrecy". 
No biggie.

I am grateful for all the very active members of the NMC and actually plan to become a member this fall (when my other halfs teacher salary returns! LOL) just to get the newsletters and try and keep up with the fun from this side of the pond.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Hmmmm- why don't I post Pictures of My Mice ? - its because as an exhibitor, I happen to show in classes where there can easily be 15 exhibits , with perhaps 6 exhibitors. As a Judge, at a big Championship show those exhibits will be positioned on minor details that will never show up on a photograph. I am therfore just not motivated to Post photographs. There is no rule about posting photographs on any Forum that I am on, and never has been, however on one now defunct site that all the judges were on, there was a limitation on photos of marked mice as they are identifiable, that was imposed purely as a fair play measure. The young people on the Main uk Forum at the moment wanted to discuss their mice prior to a show, how to condition etc, as a Judge I pulled off the forum for a fortnight before the show, it was purely a matter of professionalism. I am very happy to say that never ever, in 35 years of my experience of the NMC, has there ever been any query about a judges decision. There is not any money whatsoever in mice, and it is fair to say that an exhibitor doesn't really acquire a reputation as an successful respected breeder until they have had numerous wins under lots of different judges. This is probably because if i were to supply two trios to a newbie, or anyone else for that matter, then there would certainly be at least one Major award on one side of their parentage, if not a major award winner itself , given to someone else whilst its still young enough to do someone some good. This is common in the NMC, and very frequently results in a newbie gaining a major award themselves on the back of the original breeding.Its after a year or more that the breeders mettle is tested, and a reputation starts to be earnt. Good mice cannot be bought with Money in the NMC, you only have to wait a few months and when the breeder has used it in their stud they would probably be given any way !


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

when you do start to receive the NMC news Candycorn, there are always plenty of photographs of winning mice in there.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

A few weeks ago I emailed the NMC secretary for information on whther overseas breeders could join, and if it would be possible to buy back issues of the newsletter. It was about the time the last show was on, and I was asking people to post pics.  I didn't get a reply, so I resent the email. Still no reply, so I just figured there wasn't a facility for overseas members. I was happy to pony up with the fees for the honour of being a member, even though I'd never get to a show, but just figured that they preferred local members only.


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## jammin32 (Jun 14, 2012)

im not sure if they regularly check their emails as im based in the uk and have recently joined but when i sent numerous emails i never got a reply from anyone at the NMC.


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

This is because our Secretary is on Hols at the Moment, I will sort this out for you ladies !!!


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## jammin32 (Jun 14, 2012)

Lol I'm a bloke !
My feminine side must be coming out, aarrggghh !


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

Can you all PM me with your real names and when you sent the emails if you have not had a reply. There may be a problem we don't know about.


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