# fawn mice help



## laoshu (Sep 16, 2009)

whats the best way to get lovely fawns besides from fawn x fawn. how does the colour work?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

the only good outcross for them are champagne tans and not to often.The first generation will take a step backwards but the next will produce fawns with superior type and hopefully one or two with a tan belly.Fawn tans are the best fawns,if that makes sense.


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## laoshu (Sep 16, 2009)

thanks sarah
with breeding fawn to fawn am i making lethal red/yellow?
i am not producing any litters from my group although i am sure i have seen bellys... i know a little about this but it was 6 years ago when i first kept mice i delt with this and i cant remember now.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

The thing with fawns,regardless of any lethal genes is to breed young.If you wait til after 12 weeks you'll struggle to get pregnancies and will be very unlikely to have large litters or multiple litters from one doe.I think they are a variety that does well being left in with the buck. The lethal gene reduces litter size by 25 % but I don't have any problems breeding them.Youth is the key.Breed early and don't keep does after two litters,they rarely produce again.The tan outcross isn't essential for breeding,just improves type and produces winners for showing.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

just to add,you can't avoid the lethal gene as far as I know it's part and parcel of the red group.


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## laoshu (Sep 16, 2009)

the buck is with them.. i think i will just give them a little more time to see what happens thank you


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

What age do you breed from then Sarah? 8 weeks?

Sorry for jumping in on the thread, i'm hoping to start a line of fawn satins in the far future so I was curious 

Willow xx


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

8 or 9 weeks yes.Or as soon as they start to look plumpish,obesity is the problem.The very fat ones make good companions for single bucks,producing no babies or litters of one.It makes them hard to show as well.I had some nice ones that could have done well at Stafford,having missed that they are now looking rotund and will have to go with a buck.The satin fawns are very attractive.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

So I'm guessing show wise I would have to aim to show them in the U8, and then straight to breeding after that!

Thanks Sarah, you are lovely 

Willow xx


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Fawn satins are my favorite mousies. I just, in the last year, bred tans to fawns, and it works. I also got a couple of very nice argente and and champagne tans from those litters. I think I'm going to cross the fawns with the tans one more time. The belly is still a tad lighter than the top on the fawn mousies. I'm looking for recessive fawns in a couple of other litters so I can reduce or eliminate obesity.

Fatties do have their own charms, though, as pets. They make a nice warm handful that easy to get as they can't get away as easily.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

The reason it works a lot of the time is because of umbrous, especially in European mice. Tan mice are often umbrous to achieve the dark red belly, and it's a natural fit for reds and fawns (whether Ay/* or e/e).


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I like the fat bottomed girls as well,even the alarming tennis balls with the pinheads.To answer your question willow,yes show them early and then some females after a couple of litters retain a reasonable figure and can be shown as adults.I've done quite well with them but they aren't the most show friendly variety.I don't know what umbrous means :shock: :?: have to reach for the dictionary.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

umbrous is not in my dictionary :!:


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

http://www.informatics.jax.org/wksilvers/frames/frame2-1.shtml

Try this, it's the Silvers book online, containing umbrous and other genes...


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

thanks,I'll have a look but most likely won't absorb :roll:


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

From the Latin, more or less: umbra = shadow. In this context a mousie with a color tipped with dark, usually darkest along the midline, fading down the sides sort of like sabling. Umbrous yellow is the most common example of this. And yes, I have had quite a few champagne meeces that had this feature because of my quest for the bright orange belly.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

thanks for the explanation.Tans over here and probably on your side also have almost perfectly furred bellies unlike selfs which have the proverbial line under.One fault thats hard to combat is small eyes.I've used self chams to try to improve this but the big eyes are only passed to the resulting paler fawns.Better the fawn colour,smaller the eyes and you end up back at square one.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I'd be very interested in any ideas to combat the small eyes while retaining the deep orange .


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