# Dog Kibble?



## racingmouse

I wanted to ask you guys which dog/puppy kibble you use and why? I realise some kibbles are very high in protein, especially for growing puppies (and mouse breeders!), so I would be looking at a lower protein one for maintenance only. I`m inspired by some of you who have said that you feed only oats, barley, wild bird seed and dog kibble. So my main questions are:

Is all wild bird seed the same and what seeds does it contain?
Oats and barley I have contained within the rabbit mix I feed anyway, so that`s fine.
Dog kibble or small bite mixes? I`d be interested to have some brand names that people have used without having any issues like skin allergies or the mice not liking it.

I have concerns about feeding the Burges Rat Royale kibble in my current mix because I pick out most of the maize/corn and extruded biscuits from my rabbit mix, but these are already IN the kibble, so I can`t eradicate these ingredients from this kibble as easily, which is why I was thinking maybe a switch to a dog kibble might be a better idea? I don`t know what many dog kibbles contain right enough, so I would want one that was very good quality, low in protein and salt and be able to buy it loose or in smaller amounts as I hate food going past it`s sell by/use by date. Especially as I only keep three or four mice normally. The Ash content is the vitamin & minerals within a mix or food.


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## SarahY

I feed Pedigree Small Bite Mixer because that's the one the mice like best, they go mad for it.

Analysis:
Protein 11.5%, Oils and Fats 6.5%, Fibre 4%, Ash 7.5%, Copper 10mg/kg (as Copper Sulphate), Vitamin A 4900iu/kg; Vitamin D 490iu/kg, Vitamin E 49mg/kg

Ingredients:
Cereals, Derivatives of Vegetable Origin, Meat and Animal Derivatives (Min.4% Meat Juices), Oils and Fats (Min.4% Natural Oils), Minerals (Min.2%).

I think wild bird seed is mostly the same wherever you buy it, it usually contains Wheat, Maize, Black Sunflower, Red dari, Striped Sunflower, Linseed, White Millet and Black Rape.

Sarah xxx


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## geordiesmice

A 10 kg bag of bird seed at my local shop was £20.00. I thought that was expensive?Im going to try and get that dog kibble sarah.


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## racingmouse

Thanks very much Sarah for that. My local pet shop (non animal) sells various bird seed mixes and I get bags of plain millet delivered on a Friday for the wild bird hangers, so I will pop in there tomorrow morning and purchase a bag of the wild bird seed mix, although I would need to remove the sunflower seeds and maize. I`ll give those to the birds! :lol:

With the puppy mix, I`m wondering what these `derivitives` are? probably derived from the parts not fit for human consumption? They don`t actually state which animal or vegetable ingredients are in it? That`s typical of manufacturers though eh?

So do you just mix your bird seed, puppy mix and feed it with anything else added? I`m trying to stop using the Burgess Rat Royale kibble and find an alternative to it, but I`m still wondering if these ingredients alone are providing enough nutrients? Mixing our own foods is always going to be a guessing game I know because nutritionally, commercial mixes are already worked out where proteins, fats, ash, fibre and copper etc are concerned. Vitamins A & E are important, so it looks like the puppy mixer contains those anyway. I`m just a worry worm at the best of times!


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## racingmouse

Just seen your post geordiesmice. Bird millet can be bought in larger sacks but it usually works out at around £18 - £20 for 20kg or so. I get plain budgie millet delivered every Friday with a 2kg bag of peanuts for the wild birds, so I know what they charge in terms of per kilo. Rosie gets her share of the millet of course!

I will but a bag of the wild bird seed mix in the morning and look at the other bird mixes he sells while I`m in the shop. I already have a bag of canary seed and this contains Linseed, Hemp seed, rapeseed (I think that`s what those tiny black seeds are) but she won`t eat those and a golden seed that I `think` is golden linseed, but not too sure.


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## SarahY

> So do you just mix your bird seed, puppy mix and feed it with anything else added?


I add it the mixed poultry grain, which contains wheat, barley and maize. I know maize has got a bad rep for causing cancer, but I've never had cancer in my lines and for breeding mice it's a useful addition to the diet because it's very high in folate. If I were keeping non-breeding pet or rescue mice with an unknown health history, I would switch from the wheat, barley and maize mix I use as a base and just use oats and barley.



> I`m still wondering if these ingredients alone are providing enough nutrients?


I prefer to feed a plain diet and if my mice are healthy, fit and shiny that's good enough for me. That kind of diet may not work for you and your mice, but you'll find something that does!



> With the puppy mix, I`m wondering what these `derivitives` are? probably derived from the parts not fit for human consumption?


Can't be any worse than hot dog sausages :lol:

ETA: Here are a couple of threads about feed ingredients that I wrote aaaaages ago. Might have something useful for you:
http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1897
http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1898

Sarah xxx


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## MouseHeaven

I use whatever my store has in stock at the moment, here are some of the brands I like to use: Royal Canin Kitten Mix, 4Health Dog Kibble, Halo (the Ellen Degeneres dog food), Hollistic Dog/Cat Kibble.. I try to look for dog/cat food with no by-products, no fillers, no food coloring or dyes, with all natural ingredients. If the food doesn't have real meat and vegetables, I don't buy it. Anything Hollistic with ingredients that are safe for mice, I usually end up buying. My mice LOVE the kibble from all of those brands, as well as my dog.

I actually did an experiment testing different dog foods on my dog. I took Purina One and feed it to him for 2 weeks. During those two weeks he showed signs of discomfort, scooting, and scratching. When switched over to 4Health (which contains no by-products, fillers, food dye, chemicals, etc) he didn't show any of those signs, or anything out of the normal either. So, knowing that- I do not feed my mice anything with those ingredients in it. I feed my dog and cats the same thing as my mice, and they all LOVE it.


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## racingmouse

Ah, so you feed a poultry mix aswell? I suppose because I feed a rabbit `mix` as my base which already has oats, wheat and barley added, I would just need to add the wild bird seed and kibble to that then? Sounds good. I still worry about using dog kibble though. I know I should`nt and I do want to find an alternative `animal protein` based mix or food to use rather than that Rat Royale kibble.

The vegetable `derivitives` in the dog meal could contain corn/maize, so I would`nt know this unless they stated what these derivities of vegetable origin were, so if there was corn added within these ingredients, I`d be just as well sticking to the rat kibble! :roll:

Just for the record, once I remove the corn/maize, extruded biscuits and toasted bean flakes from my rabbit mix, I`m left with the grains which are:

Oats
Toasted wheat flakes
Wheat
Toasted barley flakes


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## SarahY

Yeah, I feed 70% poultry mix, 20% dog kibble, 10% wild bird seeds.



> I still worry about using dog kibble though


You only need to spend a few minutes in the pet shop looking at the ingredients until you find one you do like.

Sarah xxx


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## racingmouse

I would be happer if the box stated what vegetables or grains were included aswell as the meat/poultry part though. I imagine some dog owners swerve these because they don`t give enough details about their actual ingredients. I know `derivitives` can mean beaks and claws of dead animals, so the fact that the manufacturers don`t say this is mis-labelling. But you find this on nearly all foodstuffs these days. They never tell you what`s actually in a product and hide their wording carefully. Burgess Rat kibble is much the same however. The packet states that it includes `chicken meal`and `poultry fat` aswell as having maize within it. So although it does`nt say `derivitives` as such, it still does`nt fill me with glee as far as ingredients go. It also includes Soya, which is also said to be carcinogenic in mice, so another reason for me to ditch it!

The search will go on needless to say...


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## geordiesmice

Roland mentioned that the % of meat protein a mouse requires is nill .


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## racingmouse

As a side note, I was reading an article unrelated to this topic today regarding red meat (so animal proteins) and apparently, animal proteins produce an acid which is an inflammatory agent. Now I`m wondering if this could have contributed to some of my mices` itchy skin conditions? Just a thought, but the Rat kibble is binned from now. I would rather stick to vegetable proteins within the grains and seeds I feed Rosie than keep adding kibble that contains proteins from animal sources.

I suffer from Endometriosis (don`t ask...! :roll: ) and I research dietary stuff now and then and some foods come up in lists that highlight problems which can cause prostoglandins to over react in the body and red meat is one. So it got me wondering when I read that meat produces this acid that can cause inflammation reactions.

I`m skipping the dog kibble and anything containing animal proteins until I know what I`m actually feeding. I`ve had three white mice come down with this itchy skin and I know that most mice carry a gene that triggers this reaction. It can be deactivated but only in controlled laboratory studies. We`ve yet to find out whether there is a trigger for this particular `gene` to kick in relating to diet, but it seems sensible to remove the animal proteins given this link to infmammatory issues and animal proteins.


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## racingmouse

Just seen your post geordie, many thanks. Just goes to show then that they don`t really require animal sourced proteins? Maye we`ve hit on something here. Wheat and sugar can also be a cause for problems, but wheat is`nt something easily eradicated from the mouse diet if you feed a mix as I do. I would need to buy straits otherwise. For now, I`m just going to stick to an all grain/seed diet with the additions of organic jumbo oats and wholewheat puffed rice. Especially now that Rosie has that itchy/scratchy condition. :roll:

I`m going to cut out sunflower seeds as treats also and pick out the hemp seeds from my canary mix as she loves those!


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## geordiesmice

They get protein from seeds but I use kibble and my Mice seem very happy and healthy with it im going to try the kibble sarah uses the pedigree small bite.Till recently I used waag mouse munch but it made them fat so I make my own now .Mice can have wheat alergies and breeders normally cull those.The people on this forum racingmouse know there stuff I changed too the mix one of the sarahs use cant remember if its c or y lol but it contains 70% poultry mix,barley,wild bird seed and works fine and I add kibble too it.Roland seems to know his stuff too the Gorman breeder with the lovely triswhich i want lol .Im such a crawler aint I Mine dont get sunflower seeds they make them fat too.


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## racingmouse

I`m just wary of the animal proteins contained in the dog and rat kibbles now. Especially as they are lower grade. If people who feed animal proteins long term could say that over a number of years they have never seen skin allergies in their mice or mice they have sold while feeding these kibbles, then I might be convinced. But I don`t suppose many breeders or keepers keep a history of this as many show mice are culled or die young? Not all, I know, but looking at the whole picture.

I know I`ve changed my mices` diets from time to time from one food to another, but I`ve always been concerned about the whole proteins issue. Some people swear it should be as high as 20% while some say lower than 14%. Breeding mice and babies obviously need the higher content for growth, but with a maintenance diet for non-breeding mice (pets only) I feel it`s more on the lower side.


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## bethmccallister

Here is a link that Roland posted on another forum regarding the exact nutrient requirements for mice...

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=4758&page=82


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## geordiesmice

yes bethmccallister thats the paper he posted on here.


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## racingmouse

Yes I saw that thanks. It is a little confusing to understand though. Because we all feed varying diets from different sources, I don`t think any will be truly 100% nutritionally balanced. If you look at that list for example, how would we work out the analysis on the foods we add like millet, puffed rice, oats and various dog mixes etc? If you use just the one commercial mix, that mix will have an analysis break down on the bag/pack by law, but still does`nt give the full content of the ingredients and will state percentages on some ingredients but not on others. Then if you add other seeds and grains to this, that dilutes it down apparently, so it would take a trained nutritionist to work it all out!


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## Stina

Mice don't technically REQUIRE animal protiens....but they ARE naturally omnivorous and are evolved to be so. I prefer to feed a non-vegetarian diet for that reason. Dogs can technically be fed vegetarian too...but it doesn't mean they are mant to and I would NEVER feed my dogs a vegetarian diet.

(of course that doesn't also mean that the quality of the animal protien doesn't matter........)


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## geordiesmice

Stina you said you prefer too feed a non vegetarian diet to an omnivrous animal so is that a protein diet you give them then? because mice eat vegetable matter seeds and grain which is omnivrous .My dog got nothing but Beta pet biscuits, My vet told me canned dog food is bad for dogs affecting there intestines through time.My dog lived to 17 never ailed a thing.


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## WillowDragon

I feed my mice both vegatable and animal protien. I have never had issues with them having reactions to thier diet.


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## Stina

veggetable matter, seeds, and grains is vegetarian.... omnivores eat both vegetation (which includes seeds and grains) and "animals" (which includes insects and such). Mice in the wild evolved to be omnivores eating various seeds and vegation as well as insects and scavenging random things. My mice and rats get a mix of high quality dog food, lab blocks, and seed mixes. I've never heard any vet ever say that canned dog food is bad for a dog's intestines....bad for their teeth, yes...for their intestines, no. Actually most vets I've ever known or worked with believe canned is as good as, if not better than, dry food (besides canned being "bad" for the teeth b/c they don't have to chew it) for dogs because of the moisture content. This is also what I learned in my own education....though I feed dry, grain free foods to my dogs (I'd rather feed raw honestly...but its too expensive). What does your vet believe canned food does to a dog's intestines???


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## geordiesmice

I do too willow but just dog kibble no chicken etc.Stina I just used too feed my German shepherd canned dog food beta pet then for eg wasnt on the go, she got plenty exercise but the vet said she had infected intestine and bowel due to bad diet. My next dog only got fed beta pet adult from adult age and lived to 17 no meat at all ever.Dogs dont need canned dog food, biscuits such as beta pet adult and a regular supply of water. My Mice get the dog kibble, barley, oats,and wild bird seed they have no health issues,but you dont have too give mice kibble.


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## WillowDragon

I use James Wellbeloved kitten biscuits, because the protien content is excellent.

Its more expensive than most, but worth it i think. My mice seem to do well on it.


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## geordiesmice

Im going to try the pedigree small bite sarah said they go mad for it Willowdragon


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## racingmouse

I don`t particularly like not adding some kind of animal based protein, but because that would come in the form of either Dog/Cat kibble or Rat kibble, they both contain what I see as `animal derivitives` and not the `good` meat from the animal. I`m hoping to have more mice again at some point (on the hunt for more females as we speak) but I only have Rosie at the moment who has itchy skin, so I`m using this removal of the kibble to see if a grain and seed based diet helps in some way as I read that meat can cause inflammatory responses.

Off-topic, but I would never feed a dry diet to a cat or a dog. Why? Because espacially in cats, it can cause kidney problems and stones. Cats don`t need a lot of water, but they do if their diet is purely dry kibble and that`s where the problems lie as cats get much of their moisture from their food. My Labrador lived 15 years on nothing but Pedigree Chum and mixer! Not great for dental hygeine, but then as dogs and cats age, they do tend to get dental issues anyway and build up of plaque.

Back on the mousie issues, I try to look at what mice mainly eat in the wild and although you do read that they will eat the odd insect, they are mainly grain eaters and will scavange.


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## geordiesmice

Got the Pedigree chum small mixer today mixed it in my normal mice mixture and it is all eaten, no wastage and Im very pleased. The waag mouse munch I used to buy the Mice always left the brown pieces and I have noticed the pet warehouse didnt have one single bag of waag in stock today which is bad management when they knew I bought alot of it .The kibble is an ideal size for the mouses hands to hold all happy here


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## SarahY

> The kibble is an ideal size for the mouses hands to hold all happy here


I like that about it too!

Sarah xxx


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## racingmouse

It`s good to know the Pedigree Chum small bite mixer goes down well with mice. It could be something I might add in future rather than rat food or kibble. I hav`nt decided yet.

Geordie, do you know what the brown pieces are in the Wagg mix? The bag should say `extruded biscuits` or if it has a `poultry meat meal` or `animal proten` added, the brown biscuits could be either? Interesting that your mice never ate those though. Sometimes certain things in a mix do get left. Mice seem to know what`s in food and what they leave normally speaks volumes!


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## geordiesmice

I think it was toasted Soya it might be GM too Racing mouse and it was a waste of money. It used to be the only item they would not eat.The mix I make now with the wild bird food containing aniseed they love it and it smells really nice.


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## racingmouse

Ah right. I thought it was a biscuit type of thing they did`nt eat. Soya is another thing I swerve. I know it`s sometimes already added to some foods so I always check to make sure. Soya, like vitamin E is said to be a good `growth food` for mammary/breast cancer. Vitamin E suppliments `protect` cancer.

The active ingredient in soy is `isoflavone`. When given to breast cancer cells in petri-dishes, it causes them to grow rapidly. Extracts of dong quai and licorice have a similar effect. Miso and Tamari soy are fermented and are not the same as ordinary soy/soya. These are said to be strongly cancer preventive. I think fermented soy is mainly found in sauces and the like though.


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## geordiesmice

very inforamtive racingmouse clever stuff.


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## racingmouse

I was going through some of my old print-outs last night from some research I did a while back and came across this article again relating to soy/soya and vitamin E. My rabbit mix has vitamin E added, but in what shape or form, it does`nt say. But it does seem low at 20 i.u/kg whatever that means! Compared to the vitamin D and A though, they are higher at 5,000 i.u/kg and 850 i.u/kg. Those are fine.

The website I read this article suggested avoiding Vitamins C and E. So apart from finding a small amount of vitamin E contained in my rabbit mix, it`s free from vitamin C. Mice don`t require vitamin C anyway as they never lack it, producing it by themselves. Vitamin E is probably more important to lactating mice and offspring than it is to non-breeding mice though.


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## WillowDragon

Most of the 'extruded' stuff is added for weight anyhow. My hamster doesn't eat his 'biscuits' in his mix... but ironically my rabbit eat thiers.
Mind you, I swear my rabbits are half mountain goat... they insist on climbing to the very top of everything they see (Including people) and eat everything!! (Including the wallpaper at the top of my stairs :roll: )

W xx


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## geordiesmice

Im sure I read in the contents of one feed recently it contained turf as in grass would this be rabitt mix maybe?


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## racingmouse

Rabbit mix does contain little bits of dried grass yes. At least mine does! Funnily enough, the mice never eat it, but then it`s a rabbit mix and not specifically for mice! I use rabbit mix as my base because unlike many rat mixes out there that are full of alfalfa (grass pellets) and locust beans, my rabbit mix (Burgess Supa Natural) does`nt contain any of these. I buy it for the grains, but I pick out the bright coloured `EC permitted colourings) extruded biscuits and the corn. Otherwise, it`s a decent mix all round. Costs me £3.30 for a 3kg sack locally, so I can`t complain.


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## geordiesmice

Do you get much wastage Racingmouse I was told rabbit mix is no good at all or mice? I dont see the point buying a Rabbit mix when you can buy a specific Mouse mix or make one ith good ingredients.


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## WillowDragon

I mix my own mouse food, I always have since I started keeping a 'stud' rather than just a few pets.

Buying in bulk cuts down on cost ALOT, but is only worth it if you have alot of mice. And also a decent size area where you can store the bags.

W xx


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## racingmouse

I don`t have a lot of waste no as I`m still left with the main grains in the rabbit mix overall. Rabbit mix is no different from any other mix in respect of the ingredients it contains. Some will be suited to rats, some will be suited to hamsters, gerbils or mice, but they all contain much the same grains. It`s a matter of looking at what`s in a commercial mix and deciding if it`s right for the species you are keeping. The rabbit mix I use would have the same grains (wheat, oats, pearl barley, corn) as many other mixes do for example. I just ommit the pieces I feel are not eaten and the corn.

Why would rabbit food not be good for mice? It`s one of the `bases` you can use in the Shunamite diet for rats and then add other ingredients to it, which is what I do for the mice. Rabbit food does`nt contain animal proteins, but that`s the only difference. But this can be added in forms of dog kibble or rat kibble.


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## racingmouse

I thought I would bring this up again as I am at that stage where I will be looking at some dog kibbles when I`m next in town and it got me thinking. Because dog kibbles (in general) can be high in protein and fats (two of the ingredients you need to be aware of over everything else) would`nt breaking up a few bonio type dog biscuits give the mice the same thing? Only you would`nt be adding as much into their actual mix as you might do with kibble?

Kibble should only really be a small part of a mix anyway and not be added as much as the other grains and seeds/cereals, so wondered what you guys thought about the bonio type biscuits rather than actual kibble? I imagine these too have animal meat juices or some kind of chicken/turkey or beef protein in them? Obviously I would need to read up about these as there are so many sold in pet shops loose, that you don`t actually know what they contain.

Any thoughts?


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## SarahC

you can buy broken bonios.It's not marketed as that.It's under the brand 'breeder pack,crunchy dog biscuits'.It's in a red bag and is very reasonably priced and promoted as a budget food for dogs,the equivalent of broken biscuits for humans,top brands but well..... broken.Comes in 5k and 15k bags and the mice like them.I buy it for my dogs and mice.
My local petshop and farm shop both stock it along with complete dog kibble and complete cat biscuits under the same brand.I use the cat biscuits as well as they are tiny and can be used sparingly
http://www.valupets.com/pets/biscuits-a ... 22252.html


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## racingmouse

Thanks for that Sarah. If I can`t find a dog kibble I`m wholly happy with, I might just go with this alternative. I`d like to be able to give the mice `some` animal proteins without feeding too much, although looking back at the `volume` or `cups` of each ingredient added to make up their mix, dog kibble is only added as `half/to one cup`, where the other ingredients added are higher in volume, so the dog kibble would only really be a small part of their overall mix. I`m just scared of adding too much protein via this kibble because I`m not able to really work out the dilution of the protein overall and that`s where the confusion starts. I should`nt worry too much about it I know, but I suppose I could just make sure they get a couple of kibbles a day, at least I know they are getting some.


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