# Breeding PEWs is like a box of chocolates



## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Because you never know what you will get! Granted, both current litters are feeder breeders, but it's still fun 

Both moms are PEW, coming from a place with only PEW stock.

Litter #1 - Dad is a RY sat pied. Born 06/04/2013. 9 babies, culled one, 5 dark BE & 3 light PE. The dark ones appear to be getting yellow tinted hair.
- Holding back a couple of females to confirm buck being RY.

Litter #2 - Dad is a black pied. Born 06/08/2013. 13 babies (culling tomorrow.) All BE, 2 dark, 11 light.

Kind of blows my new to mice genetics mind as I was guessing litter #1 would be more 50/50 with so many possible recessives & litter #2 would be mostly black.

In other news, pretty sure i'm seeing baby bumps on my self blue satin fancy  Fingers crossed to see something promising soon on her black/blue satin long hair pied friend! Both are with my long hair black pied


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Got some photos of the dark skinned ones from the RY x PEW litter.


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

They are a little dark, but still come across as agouti to me. Cute.  The yellow tinted hair makes sense if they are agouti, because each hair on agoutis have 3 bands of color: black at the base, then brown then yellow.


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Looks like agouti to me too!


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Thanks for confirming my guess 

Ok, i've been combing over finnmouse. Let me see if I got this straight! These two specifically are from a RY x PEW, so really it doesn't indicate anything. If I hold back a few females I can breed them back to the buck to confirm him being RY (or would them being agouti still over ride this?) with the possibility of some satin babies. Actually thinking some agouti satin would look lovely.

For the second litter, black pied x PEW, I am going to assume that the two darks are most likely also agouti. From what I can understand, black is actually terribly recessive. To get black babies i'd actually need to cross the buck to an a or ae, but stay away from A, correct?

With both moms being PEW, all I can definitely rule out is that the PEW isn't hiding pink eyed red. I kind of assumed from that start that these most likely were agouti underneath.

What I can't seem to figure out, or am missing the combination to find, can agouti be diluted? Is that what the non-albino PEW are? Assuming the females aren't genetically albino.


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

With RY and albino both being recessive (as well as Satin & pied!), it would mean your agouti mice from this pairing are carrying one copy of each of those genes. So if you breed them back to their sire, you should end up with about 25% RY in their litters, 25% pied, and 25% satin. Did the RY X PEW result in any PEW? *Edit: The 25% is just the chance of this occurring on anyone mouse, and not the litter in general. For example, with 25% RY, you're looking at 75% not RY. 25% pied, 75% not pied, etc...*

With the Black pied X PEW, black is also recessive (like pied & albino). If you end up with any agouti, they will be carrying black & pied, which breeding back to the sire, will result in a litter of about 25% black & 25% pied. You might want to hold back a pink eyed mouse from the litter to see if they are albino. Even if you get albino, they will still be carrying the black & pied, so maybe hold back a doe to breed back to the sire if black is your goal.

Yes, agouti can be diluted, the most common you would (*edit: probably) see would be the pink eyed dilution. This will cause the coat to be a yellowish color with a blue/grey undercoat, and is known as argente. A pink eyed black is known as a dove.

Edit: http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/II.html Here is the finnmouse's ticked page, filled with different agouti dilutions/modifiers.


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

The RY (PE himself) x PEW litter resulted in 3 PE that look like they may be PEW. There will be females held back from this litter, thinking I may hold back more then I originally planned.

I don't need anyone yet, so I will get to see if the light ones in both litters are truly white.

Thank you for that link! I knew I was missing something 

May hold some of the black X PEW litter as well. I was mostly surprised as black is fairly dominate in so many other animals. However, this has helped me feel better about how i've paired my black long hair male 

Thanks a bunch! I find genetics easier to learn in real world applications, seeing how they actually interact. Feel like I have a better understanding already!


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Oh this is getting exciting! The two dark babies from the black pied X PEW litter don't appear to be agouti. Their hair looks like it may be coming in back or variation of, no yellow undertones like the other litter. And the lighter one's definitely have a dark cast to them, I don't think they will be white. All the babies are BE, no PE.


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Well they are most definitely not white! Still debating if the two agouti babies from litter #2 are or aren't agouti. Other then those two, this litter is predominately this color, no pink eyes. I keep coming back to chinchilla being a possibility or some type of modified agouti?


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

I almost want to say they look RY, but that can't be, they look too light and grey. Agouti can be diluted by c-dilutes, that may be what you have going on. They look pretty light to be A/* cch/cch though. Hmm, c-dilutes always make you think. I am referring to the two you seem to be focusing on in the pictures; the other one looks more blueish. I would just wait until they are a bit older before you try to guess for sure what they might be.

They are so cute too, you are making me jealous, I haven't had babies around in a while.


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

They are totally cute! Think i'm going to be investing in a PEW buck or two here soon, using my colored bucks for feeder breeder does is proving to be not such a wise idea :shock: Definitely keeping a couple of these dark babies & will see if I have at least a couple of does in agouti from litter #2.

I think they have a yellow cast because it was starting to get overcast so I put them under a table lamp. To impatient to wait for better lighting! Just to clarify, these are PEW x black pied.

Depending on what these are, the next game may be guess what my buck really is  In doing more reading, I see black can carry things & black may not really be black. So much fun!

Now i'm impatient for my actual fancies to give birth! My longhairs are up next, day 19 is tomorrow. Hard to tell with the hair!


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## TwitchingWhiskers (Feb 2, 2013)

So much fun is a great approach, sometimes genetics can be a royal pain, but really it is fun!


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Lets see if anything is more clear now 

PEW doe X "black" pied buck

Ignore the agouti babies. It's the light ones i'm curious about. Planning on holding back a trio. Black eyes. Undersides appear lighter, but not white. Started with 13 babies, all black eyes, 2 agouti & the rest were this, no PEW if this helps. Related PEW doe had mostly agouti with a few PEW babies when bred to a RY. Assuming my line of PEW are agouti underneath so i'm going with this being all on the buck. So the next question would be, what could dad be?




























And dad


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Looks like dad's black pied, yes, but guessing from the group of diluted agouti babies, I'd say he's carrying a more interesting c-dilute, likely cch. The C he's passing on gives you the agouti pups when combined with mom's c, and the other copy combines with mom's c to dilute the agouti into the pale gray. cch will give you a cooler color than ce would.


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Can he carry cch & be black or does that make him a mock chocolate?

So from reading this: http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/c-ch2.html

My first generation wouldn't really have a name, they are basically a false chinchilla. After retaining a trio & breeding back, I should end up with cchcch animals, which would now them make them silver agouti? Which sounds like, in cch or cchcch, I also have the building blocks for cream! Which is another color i've had interest in


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

He can carry cch and be black. He'd be C/cch.


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## NikiP (May 7, 2013)

Just wanted to update with pics  I feel like i'm getting the hang of things better. Litter #1 seems to be phasing out of the popcorn stage & litter #2 is entering it, but neither have really been bad. My very, very first litter was almost uncontrollable at this stage, but both these litters are much better!

One of the Cch does  Almost 3wks.










One of the two agouti does I kept from the first litter. Not a great pic, but terribly cute! Almost 4wks.


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