# The Most Useless Mice Ever



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

This litter contains two of the most useless Dutch kittens EVER. :lol: Anyone know which two they are?:


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

eh the one with the missing eye patch and the one with a big backside splodge?

the one with the missing black eye patch is super cute though. :lol:


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Is it the satins?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Well done tratallen! Yep, two satin Dutch.  :evil: :lol: Totally unexpected, unplanned and useless for breeding or showing. And, typically, the two with the best markings!


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Cool, what do I win?
I wasn't sure if my eyes were playing tricks on me and I knew you wouldn't have bred it in :lol:


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

You win a Starbucks mochafrappaccino-thing, whenever you want to collect  xxx


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Woo hooo, my favourite!
You know, people may call _*me*_ winning a fix :lol:


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

:lol: :lol: :lol: I can promise everyone it isn't 

Can't believe I've got satin in the line, you just know it's going to pop up in every litter for years now! :roll:


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

I can't see any satins from those photos but it could just be my comp or my poor eyes lol


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

morning-star, in the first picture the satins are dead centre and bottom left, and in the second picture they are dead centre and top left.

tratallen, it was just very lucky and extremely coincidental that the prize is your favourite drink


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## morning-star (Apr 9, 2011)

ah I can kinda see it -oh well I'm sure they will make lovely pets for someone lol


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Forgive me for asking a silly non-show-breeder question, but why exactly are satin dutch useless? I assumed the offending pups were the missing-eyepatch pup and the no-split-down-the-middle pup.


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## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

Useless but very very cool,lol. If only I live a few thousand miles closer..... :lol:


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Is dutch only supposed to be in standard? I have a dutch angora....


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> I assumed the offending pups were the missing-eyepatch pup and the no-split-down-the-middle pup.


I thought those would throw people. They obviously can't be shown but are fine for breeding. Rubbish Dutch can produce better kittens, particularly if they are paired thoughtfully and balance out each other's faults. I could pair the one-patch mouse to no-split mouse in the hope of producing mice with two cheek patches that don't meet.



> Forgive me for asking a silly non-show-breeder question, but why exactly are satin dutch useless?


It's not a silly question at all. Satins must be shown in the satin classes, so where a fairly good Dutch might win Best Marked, a Dutch would have to be _perfect_ to win Best Satin against the typey ivory, cream and champagne satins. A Best Marked may appear once in 300 mice, but a Dutch good enough to win Best Satin would appear once in a million.


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

They are still very pretty SarahY. Do you mind me asking how hard it is to breed out an undesired trait like satin in a line? I know how hard all you breeders work to get the markings and colours you want, but I guess I never gave any thought as to how much work it is to breed out an undesirable trait before.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I never thought satin was so hard to breed out! I pretty much have one line in which most of the mice are het for it...I just don't breed them together if I don't want satin. Good info on showing dutch, sarah.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Phil Hall won best satin with a broken so although it's not something to strive for it doesn't mean they can't ever win.


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## laoshu (Sep 16, 2009)

oh no! you know what thats means sarah?
The rest of the litter has a 66% chance (each) of also carrying satin  
you are definatly going to get more pop out at some point 

(pretty though  )


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Do you want to see me cry Laoshu? Is that what you want?! *wails* I'm never going to get rid of it! Who knows how many mice are carrying the wretched gene 

:lol: :lol: :lol:



> Phil Hall won best satin with a broken so although it's not something to strive for it doesn't mean they can't ever win.


I'd be too embarrassed to show a Dutch satin, people may think I bred them on purpose 



> Do you mind me asking how hard it is to breed out an undesired trait like satin in a line? I know how hard all you breeders work to get the markings and colours you want, but I guess I never gave any thought as to how much work it is to breed out an undesirable trait before.


It's very hard indeed. Obviously I will exclude the parents and this whole litter from my breeding plans, but recessive traits can be carried unseen for many generations. It's down to luck, trying to pick those mice who don't carry it, and consistantly excluding all those who have shown they do carry it. I thought I'd got champagne out of my doves, then some popped up again. Thought I'd got satin out of my Abyssinians, and one popped up in a litter born two weeks ago. Sigh.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

no don't be  Paul K specialises in odd coloured dutch and satin dutch.Argente mostly.He's done quite well with them,some really typey as well as pretty ones.He's been poorly recently though so I'm not sure when we will see him.The annual is most likely.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm making argente and dove Dutch because I just think they're really pretty. This is the first one to pop out of my lines. Mick Shutt bred her from a trio I gave him and he's kindly given her back:


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## laoshu (Sep 16, 2009)

you could always keep a satin dutch to prove out other dutch as "non carryers" 
although all babys will be "no good" ether way...

Thinking about it that would be a very long job :?


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

really lovely Sarah.They do get knocked for lack of clearly defined stops but can and do win .


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## Seawatch Stud (Feb 8, 2009)

I would not hesitate to show them if they are any good. When satin was first introduced everything was bred and shown in satin. Over time this has naturally settled down to the point where mostly self satins are shown as they have the best chance of winning. Often Argente, Agouti, and Siamese still win best satin though. I would certainly not discard them from breeding at all. If you keep pairing to normal the majority will be normal. nobody will think less of you for showing them, you are well past that.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Thank you, that's really encouraging  I may well show them then. Obviously faults will become more obvious as the mice grow bigger, but the markings are pretty good at this stage.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

I've nothing constructive to add to this thread but I just wanted to say even though I'm not going to be breeding marked or satin varieties I have found this all very interesting! Thank you for posting the thread and people's replies


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