# 40 or 15 day gestation?



## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Doe is introed to buck, for about 3 hours. She's in heat from the get go, so I figure she's surely done. Sent her back to her not so cozy friends.

I was more concerned about her not losing her top place in pecking order with other females, at that moment, then having her for sure pregnant. They didn't really fight, but sort of passive-aggressive blocking, and such. I didn't want the dynamics to change just yet, for the sake of the youngest girl.

Three weeks later, still nothing, and no baby belly. Ok. Re-introduced her to same male, at 4 weeks from last attempt. Together for a bit less than two weeks, all was well, obviously pregnant 10th day. In her own cage, day 12.

On day 15, from first day I put her back with him, delivers eight kittens. Healthy, and reasonable sized for the type of mouse. :shock: Could she have 'held' the embryos that long? Or is 15 days possible?

Her first litter, bred at 4 months, was delivered in 18 days. I was accustomed to 21-22 days. Usually delayed, if abnormal, not shortened. Lab articles even say 21 days, and those are discussing mice 10-15 grams smaller than these. She didn't lose condition, for either litter, pregnant, or nursing (so far). I'm not sure about there being a third though, considering.

Thanks,
Zanne

*Edit - Not actual embryos being held, but I couldn't think of a polite way to say it.*


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

ive hurd of people mantioning delayed implatation in rodents but not had it myself, id say double check all the doe's in the female group to make sure they are all doe's. Or are you sure on the dates they were tougher and apart?


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

She was only with two other does. Definitely girls! (Both in with their own bucks, now, and all going well there.) 

Certain of the dates she was in with the buck. I still have so few, that everything gets easily noted down the day it happens. Instead of labeling the cage, and writing it all up later. It's why I'm wondering. I've read of the delayed implantation, but only after another litter arrives first... I've not read of just flat delayed. Or worse, a 15 day gestation. :?


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Is it possible that a wild mouse got into the cage? Could your buck have escaped, impregnated, and gone back to his cage? Since baby bellies usually become visible at about 2 weeks (give or take), if her day 10 was really day 14, then day 15 would really be day 19 and a little more reasonable. Do the pups look large/healthy? What colors would you expect if it was your buck vs. a wild mouse?


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Well, no wild mice that I have seen any evidence of here (newish house). The cages are riveted meshed (wielded quarter inch) RUB's, with the lids always latched. I doubt any of the bucks could get out, much less get back in. Without making a huge, noticeable hole, through and past the mesh, to get to chew-able plastic, that is. So far kittens look the way I would expect, from my buck. No fur yet, but definitely none agouti.

They also look reasonably large/healthy, and all I'm keeping are really plump. Wasn't any real runts, either. My guess is they can't be 15 days. Has to be some sort of retention? They have looked way too good for preemies. Her first litter, 18 days, were all a bit smaller than these, and there was less of them.

Or... one of those 'does' will suddenly start fighting like mad with 'her' buck, and it will be some odd hidden buck. I did triple check, both, very close up. I don't see nipples on one, but she's got a very thick under, and was/is a virgin. The buck she's in with acts like he's got a doe in there, not just the mounting either.


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

hehe, have fun scouring the forums about the hermaphroditic mice!

http://www.fancymicebreeders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9392&hilit=hermaphrodite


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Oh boy! Read though all that... This nipple-less mouse better just get pregnant, and show nipples, so I don't have to stress about that.  Although it would explain the litter. But not the youngest doe, who was in high heat when I took her out to be mated. Which she immediately demonstrated upon introductions to her buck. The questionable 'doe' wasn't acting at all interested in her, barely friends.

There is a gap of two weeks in which the doe w/litter, wasn't in the cage with them anymore. They are in the room I sleep in, and I didn't hear a peep from the remaining two. Nor really before, when older doe was in there. Silent doe cage, as usual. (In the sense of lack of squeaking and rushing around.)

I guess I should say... she's got this longer than normal gap. Plus no nipples, by days 10-12, that had her IDed as a buck, when a baby. Then even at 5 weeks, when it's usually REAL obvious, I was thinking maybe I need glasses, because I just couldn't be sure. At 6 weeks I kept thinking no way she's a he, there is a fur-less trail, and erm, another girl looking part, just still no nipples...

I normally wait until a doe is noticeably in heat before breeding. This questionable one just never went into heat, that I could tell, even with much prompting. So 'she' did go into her buck's cage without being in heat, but at least tolerating him.


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Just updating this...

The nippleless DOE just gave birth last night, so not a hidden male/something.  I am not going to check, at this moment, to see if the nipples are finally visible. The babies are proof enough for me of femaleness. :lol: Didn't see any nipples throughout her pregnancy, even when she looked like she swallowed two golf balls. Very dense under! (I wasn't flipping her over or anything at that point, but I was trying to get peeks.)

So, the doe that wasn't terribly congenial with her buck, still managed, on that one day of harmony (I even noted it in my records, because I thought they were settling in together) to get pregnant. They squabbled more than any pairing I've seen, but she didn't want me to remove her. Kept wanting to go right back in the cage, and no other, after I'd have her out. She was also the doe that kept vying for dominance when the three (does) lived together. She was the dominate, as soon as the older doe went out for her mating time.

The litter that was born to the original doe, is definitely from the original buck. So, the time frame still stands.  I don't know if there was some 'holding' thing going on, but I can't believe in a 15 day gestation. Not with how the kittens were/are so hearty.

*Edited to add that she was living with three does, in that sentence...*


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## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

Congratulations.  I would check for nipples, though, to be sure that the babies can actually get milk from her.


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

All nine kittens have good milk bellies, so she has nipples, and is making quite a bit of milk.  To check this particular doe, is a bit like a procedure. Involving scruffing, and then a lot of handling her underside fur. I just would hate to do such a non-calm thing to a brand new mom. Glad the milk bellies mean it's not required, whew.

Sexing her babies was a bit of a worry. What if they are like her? Have to admit, I love the under being that thick, but I suppose I'll be on guard this time around, for less visible nipples, right before the fur fully comes in. Might not keep on any doe that, like her, has such a long distance between genitals as well. I'll have to think about that though.

She's pretty amazing with the babies. Plus ramped up her eating of the extras (fed for nursing), better than her mom did. Her half-sister, who had neither of those sexing difficulties (and bred nicely), can barely manage her own three kittens. The half-sister also eats like she's not nursing, and only pregnant. Not exactly significant conclusions based on two mice, but considering this line is being bred to be foster moms... a bit more worthy of thought.


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