# Is this buck Siemese?



## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

New to genetics but facinated. From my research I believe this buck is diluted Siemese. He's the result of a black doe with a white tail tip (which I know know is a fault) and a PEW.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Since he's the offspring of a PEW, he cannot be Siamese. This is because a Siamese requires two copies of "ch" and a PEW requires two copies of "c." So when one parent is "c/c" (PEW), it can only give a copy of "c" to its offspring. Your mouse is ch/c, which is called Himalayan.

The mother of this mouse had to have carried Himalayan.


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

Awesome, thank you!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

You're very welcome.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

He also looks agouti based, so i'm guessing daddy was hiding agouti underneath his white!! hehe

W xx


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Since he's the offspring of a PEW, he cannot be Siamese.


Not always! Pink Eyed White doesn't mean albino, it just means a white mouse with pink eyes. There's lots and lots of ways to make PEW. The PEW could be a Siamese with pink eye dilute (ch/ch p/p) - which creates a white mouse that produces Siamese offspring.

The mouse in the picture looks exactly like an agouti point Siamese to me, definitely not Himalayan. He's a much too dark shade of beige to be a Himalayan (which are white) and you can clearly see shading from his tail point up his back.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

This is true. Are non-albino PEWs common in the UK?

If you breed him to an albino PEW and get any PEW babies, you know he's Himalayan. If you breed him to an albino PEW and get all Himalayan babies, you know he's Siamese. They're both caused by the same allele (ch), but Siamese involves two copies whereas Himalayan involves one copy plus one copy of c.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

He's not a himi; himis are white with distinct brown points, he's beige with brown shadings!

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

He looks pretty light to me?

Edit: I looked on another computer (a desktop) and he does look darker. What colors were his siblings?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

My thought was that the mouse is obviously carrying c^h as there are points, but the background is too dark and kind of mealy, which I suppose could be from an agouti background as Willow mentioned. The simple fact is that there are so many ways for points and a lightish background to come about that it would take a few different test breedings to know for sure. The first would be to breed the individual to a homozygous albino to see if albinos show up in the litter.


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

He was one of 3 bucks born. He had a PEW brother (pink or red eyes) and a Black Fox (white belly). Here is an old picture from February. They were born on Groundhogs day.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Aww! They look like little groundhogs! 

His brother couldn't have been a black fox, because you'd need to be at/* cch/cch, and just as there's no room for ch/ch on the C-locus with one albino (c/c) PEW parent, there's also no room for cch/cch. That gives credence to Sarah's comments that the PEW parent may not have actually been a PEW!

He definitely does have at least one copy of ch (Himalayan), that much you can tell from the points. Whether he has two (Siamese), depends on whether or not the PEW parent was albino, or had been diluted to PEW some other way. If you breed him, be sure to keep us updated!


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

Update, I have yet to locate a good quality Albino or PEW to test this out with but I'm still doing research...I've breed him to his black self daughter to try and improve the color of the points...we've got 6 fat little babies but can't tell the color yet since they're only a few days old. I can see that they are all light (hopefully himalayan or siamese) 4 with Pink Eyes and 2 with dark. I would love to know his genecode because he has been my main buck in several breedings and not knowing has made learning genetics a backwords guess at best. I will post pictures in a few days when the fur comes in.


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## SiamMeece (Sep 21, 2010)

Breeding him to a black self ánd his own offspring is I think the best option for a testbreeding. Breeding to offspring can make it clear what recessives may be carried and Black doesn't cover up other colors like PEW/Albino do.


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