# Foxes and Tans?



## evansrabbitranch (Jan 2, 2011)

My understanding is that foxes are simpy tans with a specific gene that gives white bellies. Can someone tell me more about this? Also how do you test if you have foxes or falsies? I need to know because I have two blacks with almost pure white bellies, the spots not white are actually black? and the black is mostly by the neck if that helps. Will get pics tomorrow if you want.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

basiclky as i understand it u need the at gene and 2 cch genes.

so a black fox would have one at and 2 cch
*at*/* B/* *cch/cch* D/* P/*
where as a false black fox would have (if im understanding it right) at, 1 cch and 1 ch gene.
*at/** B/* *cch/ch* D/* P/*

heres the site im using for genitics its fantistic.
tan and fox inos an photos
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/V.html

info on the C genes
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/c-ch.html
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/c-ch2.html


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

> I have two blacks with almost pure white bellies, the spots not white are actually black? and the black is mostly by the neck if that helps. Will get pics tomorrow if you want


Are they black with white bellies or black spotted? im easy to confuse lol


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## evansrabbitranch (Jan 2, 2011)

They are black with white bellies and kind of black smudges on the underside of the neck. I need my husband at home to get pics, they are feisty when I try to take belly pics.


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## evansrabbitranch (Jan 2, 2011)

PPVallhunds said:


> basiclky as i understand it u need the at gene and 2 cch genes.
> 
> so a black fox would have one at and 2 cch
> *at*/* B/* *cch/cch* D/* P/*
> ...


So if I breed two of these mice together I should have true foxes? What would I breed to to test the purity?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Black, blue, chocolate and lilac foxes are tans with the chinchilla gene, as PPVallhunds has said, but 'at/* cch/ch' would be a burmese fox (basically a brown fox with dark points on the nose and tailset). Black, blue, chocolate and lilac are the only 'true' foxes because these are the only varieties in which the change of colour is restricted to the belly. A dove or champagne fox actually looks like a pink eyed cream fox (very pretty though, I must say) because the chinchilla gene bleaches dove/champagne pigment.

You can make agouti based foxes with the Aw gene (white-bellied agouti), so an agouti fox would be Aw/* C/*. As soon as you add something on the c-locus (Siamese, chinchilla, cream etc) you'll dilute the agouti top colour.

C-locus colours will always dilute a tan belly to white, so a Siamese tan (at/* ch/ch) would look like a Siamese fox.

Where you're talking about black spots, do you mean on the throat under the jaw? If so this is common in tans and foxes (and is a fault on the show bench).

To test breed, you're probably best off breeding your black fox to a black tan (that is definitely a tan), which will produce black tans. Then breed one of those back to the fox, which should result in a litter of which half of the babies are black tan and half are black fox. Test breeding is dodgy in your part of the world though because you have little access to true-breeding strains that don't carry anything, so be aware anything you use to test breed could be carrying genes that will skew your results.

Sarah xxx


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

In the US it is common to have black tans that look almost fox to the naked eye. You can tell by putting a very bright light up to the demarcation belly line. If there is even the faintest little bit of cream or beige you have tans, foxes will be pure white and very strikingly so.


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## evansrabbitranch (Jan 2, 2011)

beth, thank you! I decided to focus on 3 lines for now though so any with white bellies will be going as I want to work on black tans, yellows, and angoras. Working on coat density and length, will worry about color later though they will probably be blues.


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

When working with coat type varieties such as Angora it's easiest to get to where you need to be on PEW's. Since the color is mostly perfect by default with white you can concentrate on the body and coat alone. I'm currently breeding in my PEW line to all my coat varieties, rex, angora, fuzzy and texel.

Build the house before you paint it kinda concept.


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

Well a good test would be with a black self. You should end up with black tans and or black foxes but what you will probably end up with is a bunch more babies that look like they could be tans or foxes and some blacks, hidden recessives, etc..


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## evansrabbitranch (Jan 2, 2011)

I would go with PEW to work on my angora lines but . . .all my angoras are blue or blue agouti lol except one really crummy dow that is an agouti. If I could find a PEW angora I would gladly switch over but since I have what I have, to save time I will stick to the blues  Than you for the advice you have been a great help!


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