# All is not well with new litters.



## mich (Sep 28, 2013)

My mice have been having quite a few litters of late but there has been one dead(or someti :?: mes two) new born in a lot of the litters. I've never come across that before and its happening regularly. It has been quite
cold here as well and very dry.


----------



## Apex (Apr 12, 2014)

I think it is pretty common / normal for one or two of a litter of 8-12 to be still born or die shortly after birth. Most moms will eat them as soon as this happens so many times you won't even know there was a dead one or two. Wait and see what other members say but I don't thin it is anything to worry about.


----------



## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

As above could be still borns that didn't get eaten by the mother yet.


----------



## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Don't worry about it. Unless you have your meeces living in temps below 70F the temp shouldn't matter.


----------



## mich (Sep 28, 2013)

Still having a few deaths in the litters and also adults. Looks like Hypothermia, I'm quite sure.


----------



## mich (Sep 28, 2013)

Hardly any improvement still after all this time. I blame it on the weather. Its been cold, very very dry and damp. I cross my fingers it warms up soon.


----------



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't want to be harsh, but if you think the cold is killing your mice do you not think you should do something about it?! If you don't, it's your negligence that's killing them, it's your responsibility to keep them comfortable and happy. Can't you get them a heater, bring them indoors until it warms up, or, at the very least, stuff their cages full of nesting material?


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

newspaper is fabulous insulating bedding.It's important not to clean the warm nest area out if weather conditions are extreme and also best to over feed.


----------



## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

If cages are on shelving its very easy and inexpensive to insulate the whole of the shelving unit and increase the temp for all the mice.

four short lengths of 50mm x 50mm timber attached to the front legs top and bottom.
back an sides covered in bubble wrap

front also then covered in bubble wrap but only attached at the top so can be rolled upwards to inspect the mice. Lewave about 15cm at bottom so air can pass through and as it rises is heated by all the mice and contained within the bubble wrap if can put a bubble wrap cover over the top alo above the cages with atleats a 15cm space that would also maintain a healthy temperature for the mice


----------



## Cameron (Aug 21, 2014)

I heard that some newspaper ink can be toxic to kittens. Is that true, anyone else heard of this?

At least this can act as some type of natural selection, mice that are the healthiest and most durable survive. Hope you resolve the issue and good health to your mice!


----------



## mich (Sep 28, 2013)

They are kept inside with heater going at nightime all winter. They are pet mice so therefore aren't kept in breeding setup. I house them in "Habitrail" mouse homes. They live like Kings. They eat better than I do. Have the most expensive imported bedding. Imported treats purchased from ebay from overseas. I live at the base of a huge mountain so it does get very cold in winter.


----------



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

In that case I can't see that they are dying from hypothermia. Mice in British sheds stand winter temperatures of below 0C comfortably if given enough bedding.



> At least this can act as some type of natural selection, mice that are the healthiest and most durable survive.


(My reply to this quote has no relevance to the original post) Negligence and natural selection are not the same. Natural selection is not a reason for captive animals to die of cold, hunger, or filthy cages, nor is it a silver lining. It is our duty as animal keepers to prevent suffering.


----------



## Cameron (Aug 21, 2014)

I was trying to focus on the bright side, since nothing he does now is going bring back the dead mice. He can at least be satisfied that he now has mice that are more durable toward cold climates.



mich said:


> Hardly any improvement still after all this time. I blame it on the weather. Its been cold, very very dry and damp. I cross my fingers it warms up soon.


.


mich said:


> They are kept inside with heater going at nightime all winter. They are pet mice so therefore aren't kept in breeding setup. I house them in "Habitrail" mouse homes. They live like Kings. They eat better than I do. Have the most expensive imported bedding. Imported treats purchased from ebay from overseas. I live at the base of a huge mountain so it does get very cold in winter.


Can you please show me where it says "hunger and filthy cages". It is natural selection, the mice that have resistance toward cold survive.


----------



## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Can you please show me where it says "hunger and filthy cages". It is natural selection, the mice that have resistance toward cold survive.


I did say, quite clearly, that my reply to your post had no relevance to the original post. I was saying that letting mice die of cold is the same as letting them die of hunger and filthy cages.



> I was trying to focus on the bright side, since nothing he does now is going bring back the dead mice. He can at least be satisfied that he now has mice that are more durable toward cold climates.


There is no bright side, if our animals are dying because they're cold, we should be keeping them warmer, we should feel bad that we caused suffering and we should learn a lesson. Calling that natural selection would be the same as emptying my mouse cages into my hawk's cage and breeding the few that escape him. Natural selection is not humane and I would be at fault for causing suffering.

It's honestly not that I wanted to have a go at you Cameron and I appreciate that you were just trying to make someone feel better, but hundreds of people read these threads every day and I'd hate for even one person to think that allowing natural selection in this fashion is a good idea. Accidents do happen and we all make mistakes, but for anyone to think they can shrug it off to natural selection or purposefully not provide enough care so they can breed the hardiest or fastest mice is not good.

I will say again, just to be super clear, that I don't think the OP's mice are dying through negligence or because they're too cold; the care given sounds solid from Mich's latest post.


----------



## OrangeTyrant (Jan 17, 2014)

Black and white newspaper is printed with FDA food safe soy inks because many markets wrap meat and fish in it. The colored and glossy inserts may not be so benign, so avoid those, but I wouldn't worry about any of the black and white sections.


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

you can buy it shredded and baled in the uk.If you put unshredded sheets in with some hay they make lovely nests.


----------



## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

As it is now evident that heating is provided within the room the mice are kept at night I would personally not think it hypothermia that is killing the mice but more likely be viral bacterial or genetical.

All of which are expensive to find the exact cause and time consuming through elimination.

Stated that it is cold and damp is there any musty smell to the bedding or floor substrate that may indicate early signs of mould spores


----------



## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I remember sounding off on this issue a few years ago and getting my ears flattened by the amplified backblow.

Creatures that are used to the ambient temp may well survive, but forcing that when you know better is just stupid crazy. Puckishly, I remonstrate.

When mousies start growing feathers to wrap themselves in, then we can stop worrying about them becoming mousicles. Not that there's anything wrong with mousicles; I prefer mine on a spit, slowly roasting after having the fur removed. It's a humane end for a creature who is a prey species.

If they are suffering and dying it might be time for a change. Those plastic circuses are almost impossible to clean, so that's where I'd start. Disassemble them and turn them into stabiles to frighten off the crows. Simplify, simplify.

Now, I feel better, how's 'bout y'all's?

Put's me in mind of a story about a boy, a toad, an oldster and a warm summer day...


----------



## mich (Sep 28, 2013)

It looks like there's a marked improvement.Newborn litters seem to be healthier than two months ago. Ill just take it one step at a time for now.


----------



## mich (Sep 28, 2013)

Finally my does producing some good litters. Nice big kittens. Healthy and strong. After all this time. Phew!


----------

