# Mouse lost most of his hair



## Debs

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum, but over the last few weeks I have been having big problems with one of my mice.

I recued two mice from the RSPCA about 6 months ago, not much info on their background other than they were from a large number of mice which were rescued from someone who's breeding had gotten out of control. They also thought they were both under a year old.

Over the last month or so one of the pair started to loose his hair. It started with a couple of bald spots on his back which gradually got larger. the skin underneath started to go quite flaky and although I had not noticed him scratching lots he clearly had been itching at it.

I took both mice to the vets, all the symptoms were on one mouse but took them both just in case. The vet was unsure as to what it could be but thought the most likely thing would be mites and gave me some Panomec to give to them both, as well as giving them both an injection of it. After two weeks things had not got any better only worse, he has now lost a large amount of hair and his skin is very flaky.

Just before christmas I took them both back again. This time he gave us Xenex Ultra spot on in case the last mite treatment had not been affective, I have treated them both with this.

The vet checked under the UV light but there was no sign of ring worm but advised us to treat the one with the skin problem with Canesten cream twice a day.

Finally he also prescribed Septrin Paed Sesp to give to the one with the problems twice daily for one week.

The vet said if none of the above works then he is stumpted as to what to do next other than a skin scraping which will be very costly and traumatic for the mouse.

The last couple of times I have applied the Canesten cream he has been squeaking quite a bit so a couple of days ago I stopped, but he is in a worse state than ever. Almost all of his hair has gone, his skin is red and flaky and he is twitching when he walks as he is clearly still very itchy.

What else can I try, I feel so hopeless for him. The other mouse has no symptoms at all and is perfectly healthy, they are cleaned out regularly and I have not changed their food or substrate since I have had them so cannot think it would be an allergy.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Debs


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## Cait

Hi Debs, it's a forum rule that you must post an intro before posting elsewhere, but I'll leave this here since you're looking for help with an immediate problem. Could you post a photo of your mice, especially the ill one? This might help people to offer suggestions.


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## Debs

Hi sorry, will do an intro now, was just keep to get some help. Photos attached below. Also forgot to mention that i have removed all wooden toys to prevent any mites staying in the tank when they are cleaned.


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## Cait

Have you tried tea tree cream? It's a natural antiseptic and shouldn't do any harm so worth a try...


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## Debs

No I haven't but will get some tomorrow, willing to try anything at the moment! Any ideas where i could get some tea tree cream in the UK?


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## Cait

Pet shops or online would be your best bet. It's this stuff: http://www.equipetable.co.uk/johnsons-tea-tree-skin-cream-for-small-animals.html


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## Laigaie

You've tried everything I can think of, other than removing him from his bedding and food. I see you're using recycled paper bedding, which can be variable from batch to batch. My guess is that he is having an allergic issue, and that the bedding could be a cause. Because they take a bunch of different kinds of paper, and those papers are often exposed to lots of different things before they get to the facility, they can still harbor allergens from their previous life. I remember one winter when all the CareFresh in the store smelled strongly of pumpkins. I would suggest moving him to a holding unit, completely washing out their tank and all their accessories, and using cotton cloth for his bedding until he starts to grow his fur back. If you have (or could pick up) some cheap cotton towels and wash them before you cut them to fit the cage and use them, that would be great. You'll want to machine wash them fairly regularly, so he can stay clean. Another option would be to go ahead and change his feed to something allergen-free, since allergies can develop over time, by making your own food and avoiding common food allergens (wheat, corn). That's going to be more difficult and, I think, is less likely to be your problem. Still, it certainly couldn't hurt.


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## Stina

hmm...the skin is definitely thickened. If mites are ruled out it could be something autoimmune, or possibly a vitamin A deficiency (causes hyperkeratosis, i.e. the thickened skin, which causes hair loss). I've seen hair loss with food allergies, but not so much the hyperkeratosis, so I don't think food allergy is super likely.

I'm surprised that the vet says a skin scraping would be so expensive.......a skin scraping is a simple procedure and the main thing they do with it is just look at it under a microscope...it shouldn't be too expensive.......certainly less expensive then trying random possible treatments for a completely unknown condition....

Getting rid of wood toys won't help with mites if they are coming in on your bedding (which is possible with paper beddings, it HAS happened before!). If you are worried about mites you should freeze your bedding before using it.


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## Cait

I've been thinking, and I think the best thing might be for your vet to give you steroid cream for his skin, possibly with an injection to kickstart the process. My reasoning is that it looks like a skin problem similar to eczema, which is difficult to get rid of (I have it and so do other family members) and sometimes the only way to get rid of it is to use steroid cream, to paraphrase my GP.


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## Stina

mousebreeder, that would be autoimmune  steriods can often help with autoimmune issues (like eczema and psoriasis) but do come with their own problems, especially if used long term.


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## Cait

I know, I've been prescribed them 'several' times :roll: :lol: But I think that possible long term effects are less important than trying to improve quality of life for that mouse at the moment.


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## Laigaie

If you did want to start steroids, make sure he has absolutely no open wounds first. With the already fast metabolisms of mice, open wounds+steroids is really dangerous. In less time than you might leave him alone to go to work, they can develop major infections. We lost a rat who was on steroids to heal a spinal cord injury when small wounds on her feet became infected.


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## Debs

Great thanks so much for your help guys. 
Will pop to pets at home as I am pretty sure I have seen that tea tree cream there before. 
I will also get some towels and get rid of the bedding. I use shredded paper for their nest, this is brand new paper with no print on it, will that still be ok?
I will also be freezing their bedding in the future, what a good tip.
What foods have vitamin A in them? Not sure if it will be that as the other mouse is fine, but topping up his food with other bits can't hurt!
The vet said it would cost quite a bit as he would anesthnetise him first, so could get up to £80 - £100, but at the end of the day if that's what needs to happen then I will do it.
I will mention steroids to the vet, think he is is willing to try other options. The skin has only just started to thicken, not noticed that before today really.
Is it worth trying athletes foot powder?


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## Cait

Athlete's foot powder is an anti fungal treatment and would have helped with ringworm but you said the vet had ruled that out.

To add to my earlier post about steroids, there is some disagreement about how bad the long term effects are, if any. Usually it's associated with using strong creams over large areas of the body for prolonged periods or on very young children. Everything I've read says that up to four weeks' treatment will not have any negative consequences, which should be enough time to see if it's working and worth continuing or not.


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## Stina

> The vet said it would cost quite a bit as he would anesthnetise him first, so could get up to £80 - £100, but at the end of the day if that's what needs to happen then I will do it.


...they shouldn't have to use anesthesia for a skin scraping...in fact I wouldn't allow them to personally. The anesthesia is a much bigger risk for a mouse then for the vet getting nipped (or the tech who'd probably be doing it in reality).

Mousebreeder......keep in mind this mouse's ENTIRE back is affected...and quite possibly elsewhere as well that can't be seen....so I'd call that a large area of the body! ...that doesn't mean a steroid treatment shouldn't be considered, but it also looks like there is broken skin there...making steroids very risky.

thickened skin may not be obvious on a mouse at first, especially just looking with the naked eye...his skin looks very thick in those photos, thicker then would happen in a day or two.

Vitamin A and its precursors (usually beta carotene) can be found in high levels in carrots, liver, dandelion greens, brocolli leaf (not the florets), and some other things... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A. What is your current diet for them? It's possible there is adequate vitamin A/beta carotene in one thing in the diet that the other mouse is eating, but this one is not...or its possible that this one is not synthesizing vitamin A precursors properly into vitamin A. How do his eyes look?...usually a vitamin A deficiency will also affect the eyes and can cause blindness....that wouldn't necessarily be obvious in mice though, since they don't see well to begin with.


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## Cait

Stina said:


> Mousebreeder......keep in mind this mouse's ENTIRE back is affected...and quite possibly elsewhere as well that can't be seen....so I'd call that a large area of the body! ...that doesn't mean a steroid treatment shouldn't be considered, but it also looks like there is broken skin there...making steroids very risky.
Click to expand...

Yes I know it's a large area but as I said, it's a combination of STRONG steroids on a large area over a PROLONGED period. I am not saying that there are no risks, because there are risks with any medical treatment. The point about open wounds is important and something to discuss with a vet. Since the mouse has already had a course of antibiotics, hopefully there will not be a current infection but a need to keep an eye on the affected areas. The OP could always ask the vet if they should apply tea tree cream to the open areas to keep them as sterile as possible, but steroid cream to the rest of the skin to try and treat the condition.


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## Debs

With the ringworm nothing showed up under the UV light and I treated with Canesten as a precaution and have been doing so for just over a week, but as it was getting worse and not better I stopped a couple of days ago, should I persevere or should I have seen an improvement by now?

They are currently fed a pre-mixed complete mouse food and I give them fresh veg carrots, broccoli, green beans etc a couple of times a week. They also have treats, yogurt drops, raisins and a dry country herb mix.

Looks like steroids are the next step unfortunately, it isn't just his back it is spreading underneath as well, particularly on the underside of his legs.


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## Stina

With ringworm you probably would have seen an improvement and it wouldn't normally spread over the entire body...it certainly wouldn't spread and the skin continue to thicken with antifungal treatment.

Does he eat a lot of the broccoli, carrots, etc? I'm also pretty sure its really all vitamin A precursors in those foods, so if he has developed a problem converting it, they won't help much....though it is also risky to supplement actual vitamin A as it is fat soluble and thus it can cause an overdose. The provitamin A carotenoids can't be overdosed though, so they are safe to give in large amounts. It probably wouldn't hurt to get a beta carotene soft gel (supplement pills) and pop them open and put the oil over cheerios or something he likes to get him some extra...even if the problem isn't a deficiency it won't hurt them and it will be good for them in general.


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## peztree3

I had a mouse that was similar but not to such an extent and it turned out to be lice.


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## MoonfallTheFox

It looks to me like an allergen, or some sort of immune system issue. I would start by putting him on clean fabric and then start trying different foods, also.

Poor baby.


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## Kallan

My thought would be to continue with the mite treatments every two weeks. Whatever he has, his skin is hyper-reactive to anything so keeping mites under control is step one.

Next step - try antifungal powder rather than cream - cream is difficult to get over the entire mouse and can often make it itchier. Human powder shoudl be fine, as far as I know no-one here has had any issues with it.

We have had marginal success using deposity steroid injections (they tend to last around 5 days to a week though, rather than the 3 weeks in larger mammals) and Ovarid (a hormone tablet) - though the Ovarid doesn't seem to be as effective in males as in females.


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## Kallan

Hyperkeratosis is a thickening of a particular layer of the skin and doesn't cause hair loss in itself. In this case it is likely a consequence of chronic trauma to the skin caused by scratching.

The vet didn't rule out fungal infection: he checked for ringworm. But only a few of the species cause fluorescence of the hair under UV light. The rest don't; it can instantly confirm fungal infection but it cannot rule it out. Hence the Canesten.

Regarding use of steroids, a lot of vets argue they are contraindicated in many of the small furries. So far I have not had any issues using them but that does not mean that there aren't problems. If a mouse has broken skin I would usually prescribe Baytril in addition to a steroid.

I would most definitely anaesthetise a mouse before doing a skin scraping - going near a small wriggling animal with a scalpel blade is asking for trouble - I'm thinking missing toes or sliced fingers.

I don't think Vit A deficiency is an issue in these mice; the diet should provide adequate amounts.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I think that's almost definitely mites---it's affecting the most common areas where a mite infestation is first noticed. I wish that there was something like Ivermectin that I could recommened for you over there on the other side of the world...It seems like the mite meds you are using aren't doing the trick.
My sister had a cavy that the vet swore had allergies...I took one look and said "mites!"...He was cured with Ivermectin completely in just a few weeks. Just my two cents, I have never had better luck with mites than with Ivermectin.


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## Laigaie

Panomec is an ivermectin treatment.


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## MoonfallTheFox

You could try Revolution as well, if you have it over there. I used that recently and BAM mites gone, and my poor doe with the OCD scratching is finally healing up.


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## Rhasputin

If this was mites, you would see them on the mouse. This mouse has no apparent mites on it, which would be easy to see with the hair loss.

This is also not something common with mites. I've had mites here, and hair loss is abnormal. Unless an animal is absolutely COVERED in mites, it shouldn't start to lose hair.

My opinion, is some kind of allergy. I would try putting him on a very base diet, and seeing if it helps. He may be so far along that it may not get better, though.

Skin scrapings on mice are extremely easy. The base of the tail is the best area to preform them on. Set the mouse on a table, hold it by the tail lightly, and have the vet scrape the skin just above the tail.
Alternatively, if your mouse responds well to scruffing, you can scruff the mouse, and scrape the belly skin.

I have had scrapings done of both ASFs, rats, and mice, and these methods work wonderfully.


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## Debs

Blimey thanks everyone for your help and support.

I have been out today and I have bought some cotton face cloths and hand towels to put in the tank. I will clean them out tonight and Dettol everything.

I have also bought a bag of brown rice as it looks like a rice only diet for a week will help identify any food allergies. Do I need to add any vitamins in with that? If so what ones and where do I get them?

I still have to get the tea tree cream and athletes foot powder and will get that after work.

I will keep you all posted on how he gets on. It is so sad, I hate watching an animal go downhill and be helpless to help. He had such a lovely sandy coat as well


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## MoonfallTheFox

He will be okay for a short time eating just rice.

If there's no pain, or minimal pain, you should keep trying. Do not give up. Love and persistence are some of the strongest things in the world and I think he can get well.


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## Debs

Ok I have cleaned them out and put in some cotton bedding. They have a big bowl of brown rice and i gave them some carrots and broccli as well. all they have is a plastic wheel, plastic litter box (no litter), Water bowl and their bed which is also plastic. It all looks so bare but didnt event want to risk putting a toilet roll in just in case there is any reaction. Hunca's skin is less flaky now but is sort of shiney which is strange. Will let you know how he gets on.

Debs


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## tinyhartmouseries

> If this was mites, you would see them on the mouse. This mouse has no apparent mites on it, which would be easy to see with the hair loss.


 I could be wrong, but I learned that between mites and lice, one can't be seen at all by humans. I thought it was mites.


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## Rhasputin

tinyhartmouseries said:


> If this was mites, you would see them on the mouse. This mouse has no apparent mites on it, which would be easy to see with the hair loss.
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong, but I learned that between mites and lice, one can't be seen at all by humans. I thought it was mites.
Click to expand...

Both can be seen by humans. Even mange mites, which I had a very long time ago, on a hedgehog. 
Rat mites, lice, nits, and mange mites can all be seen with the naked eyed.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Ohhh. I could have heard this info from a certain person whom I now take with a grain of salt. Thanks!


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## Laigaie

The only mite I can find that's not visible to the naked eye is the scabies mite. :shock: I doubt the mouse has scabies. :lol:


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## Rhasputin

:lol:

I have seen all of them, is why I can say in confidence that they are viseable. Rat mites are larger than mange mites, you can actually see their legs, and if you squint, you can see their digestive tracts if they aren't full of blood (their skin is often see-through).

Mange mites are very very small. But my hedgehog was infested. When I picked him up, they would crawl off onto my arm, and hand, and I could see them moving around. Just little black and red and brown dots, too small to see the legs. This was years and years ago.

And lice, well, they're bigger and easier to see too. You never get searched for lice when you were a kid in school? Those nurses would strap on those rubber gloves and go through every kid's hair in the whole school, oh boy! :lol:


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## Stina

You won't always be able to see them on the animal though... Especially lice, which are often light in color and blend with the skin. There is more then one species of lice and they are not all the same size... having the cotton bedding, if it is white, should make it a little easier to tell if they have anything as you'd see little dots on the bedding


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## Debs

I do not think it is lice or mites though as I would have thought both mice would be affected to some degree. My only thought was it could be demodectic mange as that would explain why one mouse was affected but not the other as it is linked to a individuals immune system, but then I didn't know if mice could get both demodectic and sarcoptic mange.......


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## MoonfallTheFox

Debs, my does had mites and only one showed signs. She ripped out a huge chunk of her own flesh.

The other 3 does appeared fine, even the runty/weak one.


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## Debs

Hi guys, just to give you all a bit on an update on my little Hunca.

It has been just over a week now that they have had a strict brown rice, carrot and broccoli diet. Also only cotton towels for bedding, and tea tree cream twice a day.

It looks like you are all blooming geniuses as he has stopped scratching, skin is not quite so red or inflamed and his hair is starting to grow back!!!! 
I can't beleive it, i can't thank you all enough!
His skin is still a bit dry so keeping with the tea tree cream every now and then. 
I have just added some rolled oats and raisins to their brown rice so will see how I get on with that. Any suggestions what I should add to the food mix after that?
Also any suggestions at what point I could try putting the substrate bedding back in??

Thank you all again 

Debs


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## Cait

That's great news 

I would add another 'safe' type of food when you next do, and not one that may have associated issues. If you can get hold of something like barley that should be ok. I hesitate on complete dog food as even though it's great, brands with too high a level of proteins can cause issues that include scratching. When you do get to the point where you've had a few weeks on the mend and you're ready for more food, perhaps try adding some sunflower seeds or millet, but avoid nuts for now. As long as you add things back in slowly you should be ok as you'll be able to identify what causes any problems.


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## Frizzle

Congrats! If I were you, I would only add in one new thing in at a time, that way if he is allergic to one of the things, you know which one it is. Could you put a picture of him on the mend? Reading this is like a little documentary, and I'd like to see how he progresses. : )


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## AyJay658

I agree with Frizzle. It is important to know which is the thing which sets him off! Maybe leave a good few days between introducing each thing as well.


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## Debs

Thanks guys, i have added a couple of pictures to this post but they are not great as he kept moving!! It is also quite difficult to see the improvement in the pictures, but beleive me he is getting better!


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## Shadowrunner

Oh no, I'd say he looks a bunch better.<3

My cat has the same issue.
In the first picture he looked really miserable(maybe a little oozey)
This one you can clearly see more hair and his skin is less mottled.
That's fantastic <3
I'm so glad for you.


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## Cait

I agree - you can see the improvement, which is great! Please keep us updated with his progress


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## Debs

hi guys, sorry me again. This may sound silly but I have bought some pearl barley but I am unsure if I need to cook it or crush it up before giving it to my meeces, any ideas?


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## Laigaie

No cooking needed! They take hard grains in their tiny hands and chew them. This is why mice (and other rodents) have super-hard front teeth that grow throughout their lifetimes.


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## Debs

thanks, they seem to like the barley. i have been cooking the brown rice, should i not cook it from now on?


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## moustress

I wouldn't bother cooking it; they will eat it up more quickly that way, but their teeth can use the exercise. I only give cooked rice to very young meeces or to the sick.


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## Cait

Do you have any more update photos?


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