# UK shows, and quarantine?



## Rhasputin

I'm just wondering if you guys in the UK have quarantine practices for mouse shows, and what they might be?
To me, it seems that people in the US have gone quarantine CRAZY, to the point that there isn't a single person on this earth who could follow the 'standards' of quarantine. :?

Is it all rubbish? Or what?
Thoughts.


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## Stina

Since anyone can bring animals to most US shows (not just paid club members), I don't think its rubbish at all. Even with QT I've seen sick animals at events and parasites brought to events and I can't imagine what it would be like if there were no mandatory QT. People have lost their ENTIRE colonies of animals by picking things up from shows...and that is why QT periods are in place....to help prevent that from happening. I personally would NEVER take any animals to a show that had no mandatory QT...or one I didn't feel would help prevent anything. I'm just not wiling to take that risk....nor are many.


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## Rhasputin

Thanks for your input, but I'm really more interested in hearing from people outside of the US. 

Although, the whole 'only paid members can enter' thing sounds interesting, and useful. It would probable prevent a lot of the problems with paperwork, that I'm having right now. :lol:

I hate to edit this post again, but I want to point out that I'm not insinuating that QT shouldn't be followed at all. But recently there has been a spur of QT fear mongering, and I just want to hear outside opinions about it.


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## Cait

The UK has no quarantine rules at shows. Mice that are showing signs of illness, parasites etc are disqualified and the steward asks the owner to remove the mouse from the hall.


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## Rhasputin

Interesting! 
So there is no health check at the door, or is there? 
For the maxey cages, each mouse is provided with its own maxey at the show?


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## Cait

No health check at the door. Each breeder owns their own Maxeys to show their mice in.


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## Rhasputin

I see! Are the maxey cages supplied privately? Or does the club sell them? Or both?


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## Cait

You can buy Maxey cages from a guy who makes and sells them as part of his business (I think he started making bird cages), buy second hand ones from the club when they're available, or if you're feeling brave you can make your own. They're quite complicated to make and have to be to exact specifications, so most people buy them. The majority of Maxeys are 'recycled'; the majority are probably older than me!


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## Rhasputin

Thanks for answering all my questions! I'm looking for as many ways to cut down on the hassle, stress, and basic disorganization that all the smaller US clubs seem to have. AFRMA seems to have it down, but they're rather secretive with some of their more detailed info.

I think requiring people to have a certain type of container (like maxey cages) is a grand idea. It also solves the problem of not having enough show cages. At the moment, we provide (and so did the other east coast clubs) the show bins, to the participants. I don't know if we'll copy maxey cages to a T, but making something similar and selling them to the members of the club could be a benefit all around. It would make the club a bit of money, cut back on stress, and make sure that everyone has the right number of cages.
Renting spare cages might be a good idea too.

The co-founder of the UMC, Elena, has a very handy boyfriend, so perhaps we'll design a maxey-esque cage.
I think the MAMA (defunct now, I believe) club had maxey style cages, and it was handy. 

I'm sure I'll have a lot more silly questions to ask soon. I wish I could just fly over there and take notes!


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## Stina

I think its probably easiest to stick with the small critter keepers...even if people are required to have their own. The club could still sell them....but it would be so much easier for everyone to not use something that requires being built and is easily sterilizeable.


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## Rhasputin

I was thinking something similar Stina.


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## Rhasputin

Or even small RUB cages, perhaps.


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## Shadowrunner

Seems to me a lot of the fear mongering I see running through could be quieted down by the club officials to some degree.
That's part of being a leader., but instead in several of the clubs I've joined, they just allow it to continue.

Maybe I'm too straight to the point, but if people are THAT concerned about picking up any bio-hazards for their mice, they shouldn't bring them or not go. If you want to make absolutely sure I mean. Even then, there will always be risk. Think about how many people go to these things, how many things they touch that were touched by other people, how many things they walk through and bring in on their shoes. I mean even just going to a grocery store poses some risk. Wild mouse gets into the store, pees on the floor..You walk through it while shopping, come home and take your shoes off, and then go play with a mouse. You know what I mean?

All that risk mentioned, fear could be tempered with reason.
I just don't see much of that happening.

I just think it's all unnecessary, and it leads to bullying.


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## Stina

Just b/c you're going to run into risks no matter what you do, doesn't mean you can't minimize your risks. That's why we wear seatbelts right?....you hope not to get into a car accident...and you're less likely to get into an accident each time you go out than to get into...but you still wear your seatbelt right? Why should you look at your animal's health any differently? Why not try to minimize risk by requiring a quarantine period before shows???

Where is the lack of reason in a quarantine? There are serious mouse diseases with a 3-4 week incubation period....a quarantine helps to prevent those diseases being spread around at a show.


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## Rhasputin

I agree with some of your points Shadow, as well as yours Stina.

There needs to be a balance between keeping people happy, their animals safe, and not being over-bearing with rules that make no sense, just to satisfy paranoid people.

I think that after this test show we're running, we're going to re-vamp a lot of the way things are run. We basically started mirroring another club at first, and started realizing all the flaws quickly. I think if things were run here, much more like they are in the UK shows, then things would be much less drama filled.

I think someone's signature once said "Remember, it's just a mouse", and I think that really speaks a lot.
I think that if people are limited by membership, then it would be easier to keep things in check health-wise.


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## Stina

I've never seen any qt rules anywhere that make no sense to me. **shrug**

Honestly, I would probably never bring rodents to a show that had no quarantine period with any exhibitors I didn't know personally and/or the general public being allowed to handle anyone's animals. I have no problem with there being such shows, I just wouldn't bring my own animals.

The thing is, its not about ONE mouse...if you pick something up at a show you may not lose ONE mouse...you may lose your entire collection....to me, that's a risk I'm not willing to take.


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## Rhasputin

Nobody has suggested that the QT be taken away completely. We are just brainstorming about how shows work in different parts of the world.

The US system is flawed, and there's no doubt in my mind about that. 
A lot of people have issues with the way the system is run.
I'm trying to find ways to satisfy everyone, and provide a safe, healthy and fun environment for shows.


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## SarahY

> Honestly, I would probably never bring rodents to a show that had no quarantine period with any exhibitors I didn't know personally and/or the general public being allowed to handle anyone's animals. I have no problem with there being such shows, I just wouldn't bring my own animals.


Then don't, simple. I see no need for quarantine at all. There's a substantial risk when your animals mingle with other people's animals; either you accept it and show, or you don't and stay at home.

Why would the general public be allowed to handle the mice?! That's not allowed here. No mice are to be removed from their Maxey while judging is in progress and without their owner's permission.


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## Stina

> Why would the general public be allowed to handle the mice?! That's not allowed here. No mice are to be removed from their Maxey while judging is in progress and without their owner's permission.


It's generally up to the owner of the mice if they want to allow people to handle their mice. Trading occurs, selling may (if someone happens to have extras). It depends on the show. Rodentfest for example is more of a sale/exchange than an actual show...some animals are shown, but mostly its people selling animals. That is what makes it such a risky place...people go from table to table handling people's animals....and a lot of the vendors also do reptile shows and stuff. Even with the ECMA having its own shows there would be brand new breeders and people of the general public looking for mice and asking to handle animals and such. During judging the animals on the table can't be touched...but around the room people touch animals and then go and handle the stuff on someone else's table and so on...its very very very easy to spread things.


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## SarahY

Oh, well we only really have the mice which are in the show in the room. People can arrange to pick up mice, but they're not usually handled in the show hall, just transferred from one box to another. Actual 'trading' of mice doesn't really go on, here mouse shows are for showing.

In order that the mice are as safe and stress-free as possible, no-one is allowed to handle them without the breeder's express permission. It's not a rule as such, just something that's widely understood. New breeders that wish to learn are encouraged to watch the judging rather than actually handle people's mice. And, as far as I'm concerned, the general public can put up with looking through the bars of the Maxey to see the mice. To me, the mice aren't there for the benefit of the public.


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## Loganberry

SarahY said:


> And, as far as I'm concerned, the general public can put up with looking through the bars of the Maxey to see the mice. To me, the mice aren't there for the benefit of the public.


Agree completely!

And it sounds like a nightmare in the US - all this mad quarantine lark. The worst you can expect your mice to pick up at a show is mites or ringworm, neither of which will wipe out your stud. When I get my animals home I give each one a spray for mites, and a blast of diluted tea tree for ring worm, and that's it. If any have picked up a cold because of the travel (which they do occasionally) I normally cull them, or if it's not too bad give them a day's grace to see if they seem better. With so far shows for you guys to actually go to, I really don;t see the point in official quarantine rules. It should be down to the individual owner, in my opinion.


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## Stina

They are definitely other things they could pick up....I know people that have lost every one of their rodents b/c of things picked up from shows.


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## Loganberry

Maybe you have freakishly virulent germs over there in the US then.


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## Rhasputin

Most shows (at least ones on the east coast) are more trade/selling with shows on the side, and I'd really like to change that in my own club. I'd like to somehow incorporate both without one over powering the other.

It may be a good idea to have everyone pre-sell all the mice they intend to bring, so that there is less handling of mice by people thinking of buying. This way the only people who handle an individual mouse, are the breeder bringing the mice, and the person buying the mouse.

The mice which are to be shown, would be put into chow cages before they come in, or as they enter the door (if the owner needs to buy, or rent a maxey from the club) and will not leave the cage for the rest of the time at the event. Anyone who wants to sell their mice (which here is a big part of the shows) would bring them in their own cages as usual, but would hopefully have them all reserved prior to bringing them.

Again, I'm only brainstorming right now! 
Thank you Sarah for your input.


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## Rhasputin

Loganberry said:


> SarahY said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, as far as I'm concerned, the general public can put up with looking through the bars of the Maxey to see the mice. To me, the mice aren't there for the benefit of the public.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree completely!
> 
> And it sounds like a nightmare in the US - all this mad quarantine lark. The worst you can expect your mice to pick up at a show is mites or ringworm, neither of which will wipe out your stud. When I get my animals home I give each one a spray for mites, and a blast of diluted tea tree for ring worm, and that's it. If any have picked up a cold because of the travel (which they do occasionally) I normally cull them, or if it's not too bad give them a day's grace to see if they seem better. With so far shows for you guys to actually go to, I really don;t see the point in official quarantine rules. It should be down to the individual owner, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your input. I do feel like a lot of the rules here are driven by fear and paranoia, and it hurts the fancy over-all. Our system is horribly broken, and it needs to be fixed.


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## candycorn

I am not showing at this upcoming RF, but I love the idea of providing your own small critter keeper and not letting the mouse out of it except by the judge. People selling can decide on their own if others can handle their mice or not. It can be a personal risk. But I like the idea of having private show cages. Gerbil shows do that. Each keeper provides their own critter keeper for their gerbils. 
It's safe and risk free!


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## Rhasputin

Thank you for your input! 
As someone who would be showing in the near future, it's good to hear that you like the idea.


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## SarahY

> Each keeper provides their own critter keeper for their gerbils.
> It's safe and risk free!


Yep  I pack my mice up into their Maxeys the night before so all I have to do in the morning is pick up the carrier and put it in the car. A lot of people do that. I used to do it in the morning before I left but I am not a morning person and I would make mistakes choosing mice. And then, when I get back, it's my responsibility to make sure that they are cleaned properly for next time.



> They are definitely other things they could pick up....I know people that have lost every one of their rodents b/c of things picked up from shows.


If people are worried, they can quarantine their mice for a couple of weeks after the show rather than bung them straight back in with the rest of their stock. So that problem is solved. Mice can harbour nasty things for a long time without a sign but a day of stress (like going to a show) can bring it on, so quarantine won't help there. I bet a lot of people won't bother to quarantine, and rules that few will follow are pointless.



> It may be a good idea to have everyone pre-sell all the mice they intend to bring, so that there is less handling of mice by people thinking of buying. This way the only people who handle an individual mouse, are the breeder bringing the mice, and the person buying the mouse.


That's how it is here and it works for us.


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## Alex

Can someone please describe exactly what the quarantine measures for US shows are please?
On a possibly related note, can I ask if judges at shows are required to cleanse their hands after handling each mouse? I would suppose not, as it would be inordinately cumbersome...


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## Rhasputin

Alex said:


> Can someone please describe exactly what the quarantine measures for US shows are please?
> On a possibly related note, can I ask if judges at shows are required to cleanse their hands after handling each mouse? I would suppose not, as it would be inordinately cumbersome...


Mice are quarantines for 4 weeks prior to a show. During this time. . 
prior:

You cannot take your mice to another show, in the 4 week time frame.

Female mice may not have litters.

(from ECMA site)
"No new animals may enter the same air space (separate rooms within the same house are still considered shared air space) as the quarantined animals.

If an animal leaves quarantine for any reason, it cannot be returned to the shared air space.

If ANY animal within the quarantine shows ANY symptom of illness or parasite, NO animals within the same air space are allowed to attend.

No human who has been in contact with any animals outside the quarantine may come into contact with the quarantined animals without washing/showering and changing clothes first.

If it is found that any wild animal has entered the quarantined space, no animals in that space may attend the event."

Not all clubs or events use all of the rules, though. But still, it give you an idea of how intense the rules are over here. . .
In the ECMA, judges did sanitize their hands between each mouse judging.


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## Alex

Thank you for that. These rules sound suspiciously like the rules for a SPF (specific pathogen free) animal facility. I can't help but wonder how on earth a small stud with one mousery room ever manages to show a single animal at all! Whilst it is very scientifically valid, and would - I presume - prevent any contamination, this seems to ME to be a case of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'. I have never shown mice, but I have shown other small livestock; if these rules were in place, I would not have been able to show a single animal.
I also wonder how enforceable these particular rules are? Who is to say what has or has not been done prior to show day?
Again, I feel these rules are based on laboratory mouse husbandry, and even then, based on the most stringent of them.


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## Rhasputin

I feel that, if everyone was put to the test, not a single person follows the rules 100%. 
And there really is no way to enforce the rules.
On top of that, some people keep their mice outdoors, so it would be impossible to show for them.

I for one, never understood the mothers not having litters rule. .


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## Alex

I presume that the no-litter rule is due to the fact that mothers will be in contact with their own litter. On a purely pedantic note it makes sense as then the dams would be in physical contact with other mice. If these rules were in place for livestock which had enormous financial and economic value I might understand and agree with them. However, reading posts on this forum leads me to believe this is not the case, and furthermore that the show life of an individual mouse may be a matter of months. I fail to see the practical reasoning behind the rules you have outlined, even if I can see the scientific reasoning behind it. Sometimes, in my personal view, best practice has to be tailored to the actual practice involved!


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## Cait

Rhasputin said:


> No human who has been in contact with any animals outside the quarantine may come into contact with the quarantined animals without washing/showering and changing clothes first.


So even animals that can't transfer diseases to mice are a risk?! :roll:

If those were the rules here I doubt many people would show. There really isn't a high incidence of bringing mice home having picked something up at a show in the UK. UK judges don't use hand sanitiser before they handle every mouse, but I did have to when I judged in Poland. It was really time consuming and annoying to do actually, and added to a long day.


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## Alex

I think this was the clause that really shouted 'laboratory SPF facility rules' to me. Totally unwarranted, and impossible to impose. In reality, as MouseBreeder has said, this kind of rule can only deter people from showing.


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## Stina

It's not ANY animals....its any other rodents besides those already in the airspace......

There is only one club I'm aware of that has the no litters rule....and the purpose for it is that there are diseases (such as pasteurelosis) that can be latent in adults, that can be passed to offspring, who can make it an active infection again.


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## Cait

Stina said:


> It's not ANY animals....its any other rodents besides those already in the airspace...


OK, but that wasn't what was said


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## Rhasputin

The guidelines I posted were directly quoted from the ECMA's site. With the exception of the ones that were not in quotes.


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## Stina

That may be the wording, but it doesn't mean ANY animals...it means rodents. Throughout the entire quarantine page on the ECMA site it only refers to "animals" it never even says "mice" once...its not the best wording perhaps...but again, that phrase is meant to mean rodents.


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## Rhasputin

Gotcha.


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## Stina

If you're unsure about a quarantine rule you can always ask someone affiliated with the show/club....


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## Alex

I've been thinking about this, and from a Britain & Ireland prospective, I have to admit (again, in my personal opinion) that sometimes I forget that there are so many more parasites/diseases endemic in the USA that aren't present on these islands. Heartworm and rabies spring to mind; there may also be rodent-specific illnesses as well. I suppose the fact that people in the USA can house their mice outside rather than in a shed etc, says it all! It's perhaps a different world altogether!


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## Rhasputin

I think that with the way the shows are currently set up, it's no wonder we have such strict QT rules.

But if we were to integrate show qualities from the UK style shows, then we can dial back the QT I think, which will help with a lot of the stigma.


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## moustress

Even strict quarantine won't prevent the more devastating diseases, as a population of meeces may be resistant to a germ, but carry it and meeces from another mousery that may not have been previously exposed can contract the disease. Mites are bothersome, but are rarely a fatal problem, and ringworm is much the same.

I'm curious to know if there are diseases that can be spread between mousies that are transmitted via mites?


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## Stina

wearing a seatbelt doesn't keep you from getting in an accident either....but it could save your life.


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## Loganberry

Rhasputin said:


> I think that with the way the shows are currently set up, it's no wonder we have such strict QT rules.
> 
> But if we were to integrate show qualities from the UK style shows, then we can dial back the QT I think, which will help with a lot of the stigma.


Worth a try, and you can maybe have a set of guidelines for people that want to run the quarantine gauntlet, but its up to the individual. Animal sales can be kept outside the show hall. It's got to make it more fun - sounds bloody irritating and unnecessary right now.


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## Rhasputin

Loganberry said:


> Rhasputin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that with the way the shows are currently set up, it's no wonder we have such strict QT rules.
> 
> But if we were to integrate show qualities from the UK style shows, then we can dial back the QT I think, which will help with a lot of the stigma.
> 
> 
> 
> Worth a try, and you can maybe have a set of guidelines for people that want to run the quarantine gauntlet, but its up to the individual. Animal sales can be kept outside the show hall. It's got to make it more fun - sounds bloody irritating and unnecessary right now.
Click to expand...

I think I'm with you, shows are more hassle, and less fun seeming right now. I think that requiring people to pre-sell any mice they bring, would be a big factor in safety. This wouldn't mean that the general public wouldn't be able to have fun at the event. They can come in, learn about the mice, and collect business cards and information so that they can contact people about getting mice later.

I am of the opinion that a lot of the purchases at these kinds of events are impulsive, so it may actually help the fancy as a whole if there are no mice up for sale at the shows, but lots of available mouse info. So that people can learn about the mice, see them first hand, and if they are truely interested, then they will have lots of contact info about how to get them in the future.


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## moustress

Stina: It's a moot point for me, as there are no shows close to me, and I'm not sure I'd bring my mousies to one. In any case, your comment about seat belts is an apples to oranges comparison.

I'm not saying that health checks or quarantining are, or are not, good things, just that even with all that there will be consequences for some. Minimizing that risk is a good idea; trying to eliminate that risk is impossible.


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## Stina

No one has suggested that quarantine eliminates risk...it would be extremely naive to believe that....but it can definitely help minimize risks....which is where my seatbelt analogy comes in...you wear a seatbelt even though you hope not to get into an accident, but things happen and wearing a seatbelt minimizes your risk of injury/death should something happen. Same thing with quarantine....you set a quarantine procedure for people bringing animals to a show hope everyone follows it and doesn't bring any sick animals....someone may still....but asking everyone to follow the procedures certainly minimizes the number of people who might.


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## m137b

I see no benefit to the pre-show quarantine. And after show quarantines, while beneficial should be an individual decision, not club mandate. The quarantine procedures in use now work quite effectively to limit the number of potential events.

Stina you have said that certain diseases can 'wipe out entire collections'. Can you share what diseases these are?


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## Rhasputin

m137b said:


> I see no benefit to the pre-show quarantine. And after show quarantines, while beneficial should be an individual decision, not club mandate. The quarantine procedures in use now work quite effectively to limit the number of potential events.


I was just speaking to Elena about this. There is no way to prove that anyone has followed the QT rules, or not, before the show, and really it doesn't stop anything. The QT after the show, though an individual's personal choice, is what will really determine the safety of their animals, if something was brought in.


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## Stina

There's no such thing as mandatory after show quarantine...that is always personal choice.

As far as diseases that can kill your entire collection....sendai is the first that comes to mind. It HAS killed people's entire collections, or much of them.


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## Rhasputin

Stina said:


> There's no such thing as mandatory after show quarantine...that is always personal choice.
> 
> As far as diseases that can kill your entire collection....sendai is the first that comes to mind. It HAS killed people's entire collections, or much of them.


After show QT should prevent problems like that, unless the incubation period is longer (or whatever it's called). And if it is longer, then even a mandatory pre-show QT would not save someone's mice.


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## Stina

an after show quarantine might save the mice that people already had at home......but if it spreads through the show then everyone there could be affected and lose any new animals or any animals they brought to that show.... With no preshow quarantine if something is picked up in what would otherwise be a qt period it can easily be passed around a show and affect everyone there.... At least with a quarantine period you minimize that risk. Even if a few people don't follow it....it still reduces risk


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## SarahC

anything that adds more time and red tape to a show won't get my vote.It will kill showing for sure.Plus at the bigger shows that include rabbits and guinea pigs people come over from mainland Europe and vice versa.All that would be spoilt.I'd rather run what I consider to be a minimal risk.There have been years where illness has swept through some species,rabbits are one and people don't exhibit,shows are cancelled,bird shows to when the flu virus swept in.The same when foot and mouth invaded the country,all agricultural events which also support small animal shows were cancelled.They have all been controlled effectively after an outbreak.


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