# Take a look at my best young tris



## racingmouse

Personally, I think show quality mice are just that. Purebreds that come from genetically known stock ( or should do), so I applaude people like you moustress who breed nice, pet quality mice in nice colours and it does`nt matter if they don`t conform to `standards`. Not in my eyes anyway! I don`t want to be in the doghouse for saying this, but sometimes I look at some of the larger `show` types and think that they actually look.... manipulated? If I can use that word. They don`t look like a mouse should and some have skin flaps, ears that are far too big and contort the shape of the head and basically look a bit weird! The pedigree dog world rings a bell here....

On the other hand, some show lines are beautiful specimens, so I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You will always get people commenting on whether they think mice look good or bad in their personal view, but it means nothing if you are not part of that world.


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## SarahC

racingmouse said:


> The pedigree dog world rings a bell here....


very poor comparison,abnormalities that affect quality of life are not promoted.If you are ill informed then best not draw comparisons.Other than that I agree that people should keep and enjoy the mice that appeal to them and bring them pleasure in whatever capacity.


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## racingmouse

But Sarah, is`nt trying to change the size, shape and overall appearance of a species much the same as happens in other walks of breeding (like the pedigree dogs I mentioned)? Not a true reflection granted, but the difference in show mice and smaller mice is very visable and also the whole look of the animal, so surely this has been done by generations of manipulation and breeding for looks? How many breeders would know their stock is long lived and healthy for example? There are so many bred and culled, I can`t see that the longevity is even recorded in most instances? Breeders who cull out many babies and keep the best for showing might then sell these on to other breeders and keep in touch so that they can record mortality rates and any issues that line may show, but how often does this happen? I`m guessing many of these adult breeding females are culled prematurely if they even sneeze, so how do you know they are long lived and healthy?

Just a question you understand not a criticism. I`m just curious to know how so many show mice can be said to be healthier than your average pet shop mouse. In my own case, I`ve had far more pet shop sized mice outlive the show mice I`ve had by way longer. Even when they have had health issues.


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## Cait

If it helps racingmouse, I have had reports back from some of the pet owners of my mice, and they mostly lived between 2.5 and 3+ years. The mice were creams and rumpwhites. Of course not all mice that I breed will live this long by the law of averages, and yes breeders do cull weak mice. But if you think about it, the breeder is performing the role of 'natural selection' when it comes to health, so that only the strongest reproduce. As for appearance I agree that if you're happy with what you breed mouse-wise and they're healthy then whether they conform to show standards isn't the be-all and end-all. Obviously in my case and the case of others on this forum we choose to breed to standards, but moustress has clearly stated that she doesn't and as it's her hobby, I don't see a problem.


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## SarahC

alluding to pedigree dogs after the hoo ha of panorama amounts to a dig as far as I am concerned and you seem to bring the issue of show mice into things in a negative way at the drop of a hat.I don't go round making negative comments about peoples pet mice.Since you ask,I don't home mice as pets at all,I keep them ,give them to other exhibitors or cull them.I keep most of my bucks into old age and some older especially fatter does as companions for them.They live a normal life span and I don't have to keep dishing out baytril either.


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## racingmouse

Well I did say it was`nt a criticism Sarah but I can understand why you think I might be having a `dig`. I can assure you, I`m not. I`m merely raising the issue because as you say, you cull many mice and any that look ill, so you obviously don`t choose to use a vet. That`s a completely different scenario to keeping pet mice and I understand your views on that. I know there are many breeders who choose their own way of doing things but you can understand why I don`t fully comply with those ideals. But each to their own.

Cait, I do agree that culling the weakest at the earliest stage is necessary for reasons of runts and not having too many males, so in that respect, your right. And moustress breeds mice that look lovely even though they are not `exhibition` mice. I would imagine most mice that are bred these days are not in that upper standard anyway unless they are from one of the top notch show breeders! So anyone showing some ordinary mice against these probably would`nt beat them on the show bench anyway.


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## moustress

While it is true that I'm NOT trying to breed meeces for show, that doesn't by any means that I'm not breeding for good looking mousies. I have my own preferences for certain phenotypical qualities. I do like bigger mousies, and I think that a hefty tail is very attractive. My preference for head shape doesn't bear any resemblance to show standards. Clean ears are good, but I'm not interested in getting the biggest ears ever seen as I think it's too affected and looks ridiculous, especially if they are set way far apart. Instead of ten and two, I like ten thirty and one thirty. Eleven and one is too close. Bright eyes, shiny coat...who would want anything else than that? I'm dead set against the more extreme varieties; I avoid looking at pix of hairless, fuzzies, dumbo, rex and I'm not too sure about curly mousies. I adore the racy body lines of your average show mousie; I have had a few show quality meeces bred into my mousies and I get that body type in many cases, though in a more diminutive scale.

I completely get it about show breeding and I respect the folks who guard the purity of their lines. It's just not my thing though.

Now I'm going to ask that this thread be left alone...allowed to quietly fade away if not to be forgotten.


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## racingmouse

Do you guys show in America moustress? I was`nt sure if the US had mouse exhibition shows? Just curious really as I may be confusing `show` mice with `exhibition` mice, meaning both are bred to be judged?

You also don`t need to ask for your post to fade away..... it`s lovely to see your mice and I only added my comments following on from what Roland was saying, meaning I did`nt care either way if a mouse was exhibition or otherwise, so I hope what I wrote was`nt taken the wrong way. I have a show mouse for goodness sake! A chocolate burmese and I hope to have her for a loooong time! I also have a teeny white satin but she`s a mongrel in comparison bless her. She does have the calmer nature however, so she does have her good points!


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## moustress

Yikes I left out the NOT in the first sentence of my last post in this thread.  Sorry to have confused you guys....need to reread before posting. Mild aphasia and a touch of dyslexia when under stress sometimes makes me say the opposite of what I mean. Some of you probably knew that already...the rest of you, big "Sorry!"

There are a handful of serious show breeders in the US mostly on the West Coast, a few on the East coast and a couple mid-continent. I brought a few meeces to a show eleven years ago...it was mostly pet mousies with only one serious breeder who swept the awards in her categories, and I took an honorable mention for a long haired pied satin agouti doe. My mousies weren't as pretty then as the ones I have now, but they were still better than most of what the other breeders had. It was a huge pet exhibition with all kinds of critters. I was not impressed with the rodent part of the show, and saw other things later with some of the folks who organized it that convinced me that I really didn't want to go to any more shows.

I know the US show arena is still in it's infancy, which is one of the reason, I think, why there are disagreements and lack of consistency in adminstering the shows, along with breeders who are not following sensible quarantine procedures.


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## WNTMousery

Longevity is not a sign of good health. Just because a mouse lived for 2 years does not mean it is/was healthier than a mouse that only lived to 18 months. It just means it lived longer.

Apples to oranges.


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## racingmouse

One of my girls (a rescue and probably pet shop origins) is 18 months old, has an on-going skin complaint, but she`s a fit as a fiddle, has had three long courses of Baytril during her life (yes, I do treat my mice) and is as bright as the day she came here. Had she been a breeding female, she would likely have been gone by now, so a health issue does`nt necessarily mean get rid of, either.

moustress, thanks for telling me about the showing situation over there. I guess it`s very much a `clique` of people who show against one another and anyone with mice not to that standard would`nt win anyway since it takes a long time to establish animals of that quality. I`m happy to admire mice whatever shape or form they take!


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## WNTMousery

racingmouse, You really cannot go by moustress's opinion of the show community here in the US. She lives in an isolated region and makes no attempt to connect with the show breeders. She is very much "out of the loop" and as she said herself, bases her misguided opinion on a "show" she went to 11 years ago.

You can ask various folks here and on other forums who have been to real shows within the last 5 years (pet expos and "fests" don't count in my opinion) and I guarantee they will ALL tell you they have had a wonderful time whether they exhibited, won, lost or whatever. It may seem that some of the show breeders are "clique-ish" based on forum postings and what have you, but in the real world we are all welcoming and friendly and we really do have a fantastic time at our shows and gatherings. 

ETA: Most of the breeders in the eastern US who attend shows and exhibit their mice have pet typed mice only. A few members have excellent show type and some breeders have mice that are hybrid show/pet types. Folks with hybrid and pet types are encouraged to enter their mice anyway to get the judge's evaluation so that they can learn which areas need the most improvement on their mice.


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## racingmouse

I have no doubts at all that mouse shows are a nice place for people to meet and chat about their mice, but it seems to me even in this country (UK) that it`s quite an isolated club in terms of where the shows are held (mainly in England) and are few and far between, so these shows will mainly be attended by the breeders who always attend them, even though new members and guests will also pop along to meet friends and see what`s happening or to ask about acquiring mice. 

By adding my opinion on whether I think mice should be bred to exhibition standards or not, I`ve veered this thread in another direction entirely, which was`nt meant, so appologies to moustress. My intention was to admire the mice moustress posted about and say that I don`t feel mice should need to be bred to such high standards for looks alone. The tri`s that moustress has on this thread (in my eyes) are beautiful mice, but to exhibition people, they will obviously lack. So that was the point I was making. Exhibition mice are in another league, yet when compared to mice like the ones moustress has, it`s a shame that such mice are overlooked as poor speciments (not my words), when they are obviously well marked and healthy mice. It should`nt matter if they don`t have a tail longer than their body or ears like soup plates!


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## SarahC

Roland who offered up the comments is not an 'exhibition person' he doesn't show,it is not his forte,he is interested in genetics. It is your assumption that he shows:!:


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## Roland

SarahC said:


> Roland who offered up the comments is not an 'exhibition person' he doesn't show,it is not his forte,he is interested in genetics.


 and in breeding beautiful mice, which means very rich colours and a good type too 

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## SarahC

Roland said:


> SarahC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roland who offered up the comments is not an 'exhibition person' he doesn't show,it is not his forte,he is interested in genetics.
> 
> 
> 
> and in breeding beautiful mice, which means very rich colours and a good type too
> 
> Best regards, Roland
> Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
> The place where science meets fun!
Click to expand...

of course,I accept this as important for your breeding program.


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## nuedaimice

racingmouse,

Actually, moustress's description of mouse shows in the past are very accurate to how some clubs are still run to this day. It is very clique-ish and if you don't fit into that "clique", you either get driven out of mice with harassments and threats OR any new person interested in mice that speaks to you gets blacklisted from the "top" breeders "approval" list to try to convince them to not talk to you anymore.

Mouse shows are a lot of fun, if they are run fairly. But try being on the outs of the clique for a few days and see how you really like the clubs and owners then.

The problems in the U.S. has never stemmed from jealousy over animals or anything like that. It stems from the ever growing list of fanciers who have been pushed out by sheer bullying from a clique of people who just want nice mice so badly they will do whatever that person tells them to do to get them. (And the people who give them just enough to not make them competition for themselves, but to keep them constantly coming back for more).

I would compare the U.S. mouse shows to more like a crack dealer who tries to get everyone hooked and anyone who poses a threat to them or their standing gets "bumped off".

Oh, and I forgot the part where the parties responsible always blame someone else who is supposed to be on outs for THEIR actions and claim that they are the clique. Even when over half the people they claim are the clique are no longer breeding because of their actions. It still amazes me how no one ever notices the drama that circles these people like buzzards. They are very good at hiding the actions behind smiles and false niceties.

This is just my objective opinion of the U.S. mouse fancy.


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## Stina

objective?... :roll:


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## bethmccallister

As I understand the US mouse fancy anyone can get beautiful mice if we would ship them in from the UK, lol. If you want to get beautiful show quality mice "for an affordable price" you then need to obtain them from a US show member because they are EXTREMELY rare here. Because they are so rare they are almost endangered and are treated as such. US show breeders are over protective for a very good reason...if someone destroyed your variety you'd have to pay tons of money to get new ones in from the UK. You have to except this and respect it and it is very hard to prove yourself worthy for GOOD reason. If you paid the price to get them right with either money or time or distance or all the above and then you adopted out the few extra that you had and something happened to them you would be very cautious to further adoptions.


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## SarahC

We don't have the problem of scarcity of mice and most people give freely to new mousers and help them to get on as much as possible.Not much fun competing against yourself.We do have an increasing problem,especially since the internet of very vocal pet keepers joining up who have got no concept of the way things are and want to change things to a pet club.We aren't interested in mice being cute,fluffy,pretty etc etc.We are matching to a standard for the purpose of competition the same as any other show animal.Why some pet owners have a problem with this I don't know,no one is objecting to the way they do things.With out us some would have cages of wild coloured mice since it's wrong to tamper with what nature dished out in the first place apparently but no, even people who object want pretty coloured mice.Just where are these careful breeders of pet mice that keep records over years of illnesses or longevity,virtually non existant.I've been breeding my particular mice for 9 years and know them inside out.I like admiring all of the mice on here whatever their origin and whoever owns them and wish people would be more live and let live on here.


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## Matt Haslam

SarahC said:


> We don't have the problem of scarcity of mice and most people give freely to new mousers and help them to get on as much as possible.Not much fun competing against yourself.We do have an increasing problem,especially since the internet of very vocal pet keepers joining up who have got no concept of the way things are and want to change things to a pet club.We aren't interested in mice being cute,fluffy,pretty etc etc.We are matching to a standard for the purpose of competition the same as any other show animal.Why some pet owners have a problem with this I don't know,no one is objecting to the way they do things.With out us some would have cages of wild coloured mice since it's wrong to tamper with what nature dished out in the first place apparently but no, even people who object want pretty coloured mice.Just where are these careful breeders of pet mice that keep records over years of illnesses or longevity,virtually non existant.I've been breeding my particular mice for 9 years and know them inside out.I like admiring all of the mice on here whatever their origin and whoever owns them and wish people would be more live and let live on here.


hear hear!!!


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## WillowDragon

Totally agree with that Sarah, and well said!


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## Stina

I wish that we didn't have the problem of scarcity in the US...but unfortunately we do. The majority of the US public also looks at mice as pests, reptile food, or at most, as throw away pets they get just to see if their kid can stay interested in something. Some of us adopt out as pets (carefully) others don't...that's a personal choice and there is nothing wrong with it. There aren't many interested in breeding for exhibition and as such, some breeders don't adopt much out except to the few people they feel are really dedicated. Some also have very strict contracts. Some people (who don't get what they want) who don't agree with such practices have become bitter towards those who choose to be restrictive...but there is nothing wrong with trying to make sure your animals are going to people you trust.


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## Cait

Stina said:


> The majority of the US public also looks at mice as pests, reptile food, or at most, as throw away pets they get just to see if their kid can stay interested in something.


I'm afraid that it's the same here, and probably everywhere. Although the showing community here is dedicated, we could do with more NMC members.


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## racingmouse

I took an interest in joining the NMC a few years ago, but never did because I don`t breed and don`t get the chance to attend shows anyway so I did`nt see the point! I feel the majority of pet mouse owners would go along for the chat and to see the mice in attendance, but would probably not feel they could compete within such classes unless they bred exhibition mice themselves and became part of that scene. Showing pet mice would probably be just a nice day out and if you won something, great! If not, it does`nt matter.

I know there are many hamster shows go on aswell around the country. Don`t know how keen those breeders are in terms of standards but I would think they too want to breed the best.


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## moustress

I can clearly see the line between most show breeders and pet breeders. I guess I walk that line, as I am firmly in the middle. It reminds me of seeing on line the meeces that Guppie had ten years ago; they were so very pretty and resembled show meeces in many features. I was surprised when I saw some pix that were taken where one could actually see their size and also see that they were far more typy than meeces from other breeders here in the US. They looked like diminutive show meeces, very nice looking, but a bit on the small side. He, like myself, had the chance to infuse his lines with a good proportion of show mousie genes. I know that makes some of you show breeders cringe. But remember, it doesn't affect your lines so it's no threat.

The only negative side I can see in this sort of thing is where someone has bred show meeces into American 'pet' meeces, produced a few individual meeces that were quite large and typy and then turned around and offered them for sale as show quality mousies. I, personally, never saw that, as I bowed out of the whole show scene as quick as I bowed in. And, since then, I've been quite content to carry on at a distance from the whole scene, even spending years here and there not even interacting with other breeders online. There are times when I feel that would be the thing to do again...fading away and only posting a few times a year. Only then there might be folks who haven't seen the disclaimer about me not breeding for show who would offer me up the chapter and verse of all the deficiencies present in my mousies all over again, along with all that entails.

I try to remind myself that this is only a hobby, and not Real Life, and that even the most lauded of breeders are just big fish in a small pond. And, with that in mind, I am going to try to develop a Teflon attitude, and so I can let stuff just slide off instead of getting all sorts of annoyed when I feel my toes are being stepped on.


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## SarahC

moustress said:


> I try to remind myself that this is only a hobby, and not Real Life, and that even the most lauded of breeders are just big fish in a small pond. And, with that in mind, I am going to try to develop a Teflon attitude, and so I can let stuff just slide off instead of getting all sorts of annoyed when I feel my toes are being stepped on.


amen to that.I'm going to try the same.


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## moustress




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## nuedaimice

> As I understand the US mouse fancy anyone can get beautiful mice if we would ship them in from the UK, lol. If you want to get beautiful show quality mice "for an affordable price" you then need to obtain them from a US show member because they are EXTREMELY rare here. Because they are so rare they are almost endangered and are treated as such. US show breeders are over protective for a very good reason...if someone destroyed your variety you'd have to pay tons of money to get new ones in from the UK.


First of all, this is actually quite false. There are lots of breeders in the U.S. that are worth getting mice from if you're willing to make the drive and do a little work. You can develop a line from the current U.S. stock and there a lot of breeders that have stock that are just as good as a lot of UK stock. I picked up mice from Mike Chiodo and all of them matured out just as large as any show stock/UK stock I've owned in the past. They have nice heads, large ears, actually have tail set-ons (the most overlooked feature in the U.S. - including by some "show breeders"), longer, racy bodies. They are NICE mice.

You can ship in bad stock from the UK (from the wrong sources) just as easily as you can ship in good stock. I've been breeding mice since 2001, and I have seen a VAST overall improvement in what breeders have to offer compared to what was around 10 years ago. The ONLY real difference is that the people are more spread out here, so you must be willing to ship in the U.S. or drive several hours. I've owned mice from all the top U.S. breeders and 100% of my current stock is traceable to UK stock or stock from those breeders at SOME point in their long pedigrees. Not ONE pedigree I have says "pet store mouse" anywhere on it.

I get tired of people saying "crossing in pet store stock" as a reference to someone who has selectively bred mixed pet store X show stock for YEARS (not myself, necessarily but others) and saying that their stock isn't as good as anyone else's who has stock where pet store stock was crossed in at some point too. Its just more diluted and further down the line.

There is NOT one SINGLE solitary U.S. breeder who has 100% English derived stock without any U.S. influenced out crosses in their colony. They may have lines that are 100% English but they all have some mice that were at some point influenced by U.S. mice, and U.S. mice are the ones that are constantly referred to as "pet type" and they are in their own personal lines. Thats what bothers me because it is quite hypocritical to tell people NOT to buy from someone who has "mixed" ancestry in their stock when their stock has mixed ancestry. Just as an example, ANY breeder who has "show" Splashed or Tri Color has MIXED ancestry since the variety originated in labs here. At some point, a poorly typed lab mouse was crossed into show stock and bred for nicer type for generations to make a show animal in that color.

Why is it that no one else can selectively breed their stock or cross in any outside stock? Why does everyone else have to buy good stock? If its selectively bred, its considered not good enough and labelled as such via the breeders on the internet, whether they have ever seen it or not.

And as said, its a hobby. You should be able to breed for whatever you like without anyone ragging you constantly. And if you decide to go the long way breeding show stock, you shouldn't be ridiculed for it.

It takes the right eye to breed a nice show animal, you have to know what you are looking for. If you sell it, its a cull, so there should be no reason to be upset if someone takes it home and ruins it. You wouldn't have kept it and bred from it anyway. So why is that even an issue?



> Some also have very strict contracts. Some people (who don't get what they want) who don't agree with such practices have become bitter towards those who choose to be restrictive...but there is nothing wrong with trying to make sure your animals are going to people you trust.


 Yes, you can be selective about who gets the mice, but don't be the pot calling the kettle black (ie. "I'm not selling to that person because they neglect/don't feed/have too many/filthy conditions/diseases." if you yourself are guilty of all the same things - just as an example).

If its just people who don't get what they want, then why is it that people who have NEVER even asked for these contracted mice still get harassed and bullied - or told to cull mice they purchased from another breeder that was not even off of those contracted lines because it was the same color as a cull they gave them? Or better yet, people who had "contracted" mice (allegedly since no contract was ever produced as evidence), and won BIS were suddenly told to cull all the breeder's stock for no real reason (that didn't happen to me, but it did happen to one breeder)? If this is too specific, then a mod can remove this portion and I apologize.


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## WNTMousery

How are you doing, Allison? It's nice to see you participating on the boards again.


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## nuedaimice

> How are you doing, Allison? It's nice to see you participating on the boards again.


I have been fabulous. The dog training business is booming right now ("new puppy" season and fixing to finish up some new CGC and Therapy dogs) and I lead a very active lifestyle (jogging 3-4 times a week, visiting nursing homes with our therapy dog, school activities with Ami - just had her Spring Green party on Friday, choir, play dates, teaching a Discipleship Training class, etc.) plus tending to the house and all of our pets leaves just enough time to visit about one forum regularly. So its only on off days that I try to type out a response to something I've read on this forum. I wish I could sit in front of a computer all day and do nothing but discuss mice, but I have way too many other real life things going on. As others said, mice are a hobby, not my life. Forums are a hobby of my hobby.

Sorry for temporarily hijacking your thread, moustress.


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## WNTMousery

It is great to hear how your life has improved so drastically!


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## The Village Mousery

wow after page 1 this is thread turns into a show v pet argument ...... tis getting alittle old must we recycle old arguments every 2 months? Then at the final page turns into a how bad are US shows or not .... also an old argument.. yawn.

Nice mice mousetess glad you managed to save your lines and you look well on the way to getting back at least alittle of what you lost in the accident.


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## SarahC

Everyone feels so strongly, maybe if it remains civil and gets a good airing some good will come of it.


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## WillowDragon

> I picked up mice from Mike Chiodo and all of them matured out just as large as any show stock/UK stock I've owned in the past. They have nice heads, large ears, actually have tail set-ons (the most overlooked feature in the U.S. - including by some "show breeders"), longer, racy bodies. They are NICE mice.


I was under the impression that Mike Chiodo bred for colour and 'unusualness' rather than to show standard?? If I am wrong then I stand corrected, but he is quoted to say that in an article I read about him, and the only pictures I have seen of his mice, albeit pretty, are no way near to the standard of UK show animals in type.


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## SarahC

SarahC said:


> moustress said:
> 
> 
> 
> I try to remind myself that this is only a hobby, and not Real Life, and that even the most lauded of breeders are just big fish in a small pond. And, with that in mind, I am going to try to develop a Teflon attitude, and so I can let stuff just slide off instead of getting all sorts of annoyed when I feel my toes are being stepped on.
Click to expand...

It was originally moustress' thread and I've finished stating my opinion but I'm going to hold on to moustress' words and I just thought I'd bow out with a reminder.Cheers moustress


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## WNTMousery

WillowDragon said:


> I picked up mice from Mike Chiodo and all of them matured out just as large as any show stock/UK stock I've owned in the past. They have nice heads, large ears, actually have tail set-ons (the most overlooked feature in the U.S. - including by some "show breeders"), longer, racy bodies. They are NICE mice.
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that Mike Chiodo bred for colour and 'unusualness' rather than to show standard?? If I am wrong then I stand corrected, but he is quoted to say that in an article I read about him, and the only pictures I have seen of his mice, albeit pretty, are no way near to the standard of UK show animals in type.
Click to expand...

You are correct, Willow. Mike is a friend of mine and although he is great with genetics, his mice are known for their temperaments and colors, not show conformation. The only way in which he breeds to conform to standards is in regards to ear size. He did receive a mouse from show stock many years ago from the west coast and received two mice from me which were moderate show type in 2009, but otherwise his mice are pet type, sometimes with large ears.

The mice I've had from Mike varied greatly in size and type, but most of them matured as smaller adults than my show stock.

PS- I believe how many actual shows a person has attended may have something to do with their perception of the show world in the US. I've exhibited under the MMC and SEFMA (both defunct now), as well as the ECMA. I've also attended and trained at an AFRMA show and been present at various "fests". My opinion is based on over 15 events I've attended all over the country whereas the other folks posting about US shows in this thread have been to 3 real shows max (not counting one "fest" which doesn't have a show and is geared toward pets only). If you've never really been a part of it, how can you make an accurate judgment, ya know?


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## nuedaimice

> PS- I believe how many actual shows a person has attended may have something to do with their perception of the show world in the US. I've exhibited under the MMC and SEFMA (both defunct now), as well as the ECMA. I've also attended and trained at an AFRMA show and been present at various "fests". My opinion is based on over 15 events I've attended all over the country whereas the other folks posting about US shows in this thread have been to 3 real shows max (not counting one "fest" which doesn't have a show and is geared toward pets only). If you've never really been a part of it, how can you make an accurate judgment, ya know?


That depends on what you count as a show. I hardly would think someone who has _competed_ in only about 3-4 shows against pet typed animals, and being the only one with show stock under judges that _they_ were training at the time of the show HARDLY counts as an expert either. Attending a show vs. actually competing in one are two totally different things. I may have only competed in one show, but if I remember correctly all of my animals took the top spots in every section they were entered in (including BIS, BOA, Best Kitten, Best Standard, and Best Satin). Including the ones that were not derived from KK stock. I didn't lose my eye for type. It may take me longer to rebuild, but I'm not as far off as people would like to HOPE.



> It is great to hear how your life has improved so drastically!


Yes, it is AMAZING what getting out of a 7 year long abusive relationship will do for a person. Unless you are referring to all of my sick grandparents over the holidays. I lost a grandfather in December, thanks for asking. :roll: And the one with full blown dementia is doing so much better now that we have him at Lakeside, it took us MONTHS to get him in, but he's shown a lot of improvement.



> I was under the impression that Mike Chiodo bred for colour and 'unusualness' rather than to show standard?? If I am wrong then I stand corrected, but he is quoted to say that in an article I read about him, and the only pictures I have seen of his mice, albeit pretty, are no way near to the standard of UK show animals in type.


Mike does not breed for a show standard in color, but I have many mice I just picked up last October from him here right now, and many more babies bred out of his lines, just like any mouse that may be culled they do have some minor flaws but they have all matured out to, _at least_, 10 1/2 inches (bucks and does - and all are of a Rex or Fuzzy or both variety), have very nice heads, ears, and eyes. One or two have higher set ears, but that seems to plague a lot of U.S. breeders stock anyway. A friend of mine that has mice from the best breeder in the U.S. (Karen Robbins) and I have done size comparison photos and measuring and most of my Mike mice are the same length as his. Maybe only a touch shorter. Another buck I had (bred 1 generation out of UK stock) was the same length as some of the bucks and does I have here, with smaller ears. When was this article written that you read?

Karen Robbins, herself, has said to me while looking at a whole box of mice bred from Mike that he had held the type VERY well, they were just on the small side. Myself and other breeders have found that Mike's mice can be bulked up and mature slowly (they don't hit full size until around 5 months). I've had mice bred from Mike's lines in 2006 also when I owned KK stock, and one of the heavily bred Mike lined does was the SAME size as the KK does.

They may come in a rainbow of colors, but their type is not bad. I mean, even in the UK, there are some varieties that don't have size or type like others. Thats not to say that 100% of his mice all mature out perfectly, but does anyone's? I was under the impression Mike liked the look of the show mice. I was trained by Karen Robbins to judge mice, maybe I'm a little rusty but I know my animals flaws and strong points. Just because Mike is HONEST about his stock and maybe they are not completely line bred solid one color show stock and they may not be in a show-able color, they are great for working on type from. They have been a great asset to my Fuzzy Hairless lines (bred in PEW only).


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