# Littering problems on a corn free diet?



## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I am hoping that anyone can weigh in regaurding some recent issues I have had. I used to feed Mazuri block, 16% protien. Recently for the last two months, I've been feeding a mix of Diamond naturals dog food, seed mixtures, oats, and noodles sometimes.
The Diamond naturals has no corn or soy and mainly pure meat sources. I thought I would do better by my mice to get them away from the corn/soy issue all together. All adults are in good condition on it, and are sleek and healthy.

However, in the last two months, this has happened in the mousery-

Litter One- Miscarriage 3 days early, mom died
Litter Two-Miscarriage 1 day early, mom became infected and PTS
Litter Three- Perfect!
Litter Four-3 live babies, many dead
Litter Five-One live baby, 13 dead, mom retained a few fetuses for several days

This diet has been the only change in the mousery. It must be the common factor in the problems with reproduction. It has been hard and I didn't make the diet connection until recently. I have several questions and I'd like to discuss in detail what could have gone wrong. Needless to say, I have ordered more Mazuri, but the questions remain about this trying time.

Could I have bred my mice towards mild genetic dependence on a corn based diet?
How would corn have helped their reproduction previously?
If I get all adult does on the Mazuri for a month, would it be safe to try again?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I don't see how a corn-free diet could be responsible for all those problems. I think you are just having a run of incredibly bad luck.

What's in the seed mixture you use? Could there be an ingredient in it, like peanuts or sunflowers, that could be rancid or moldy? When different seeds are mixed, they can lose their proper moisture content and become quite stale. I found out about that when I mixed some roasted squash seeds in with some grain and left it over night. I had fed the squash seeds to the meeces the night before, right after roasting them. They loved them. After sitting just one night in a mix of grain and seeds, the meeces wouldn't touch them. I tasted one and found that they were soggy and nearly tasteless. Ever since then, I've adopted the practice of mixing only enough food for one night's feeding.

Food may not be the issue. Have you considered environmental factors?


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

It's not likely the lack of corn is an issue, but it could be that a dietary requirement for pregnant does of some kind is not being met.....or it could just be bad luck... or possibly something else environmental


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks for responding guys. I dont know if i have moldy or problematic seeds, everything is bought a few lbs at a time so it doesnt go bad. As for environmetal, I would say that it is possible except that alll my adults are in lovely good health, and there was that perfect litter, still doing well...this doe is like a super momma even!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

It's demoralizing, I know, to have a run of bad stuff like this, but it may just be that and nothing more. It happens to all of us from time to time...I don't always post, but something similar happened to a litter I was expecting about a week and a half ago. It's frustrating when you've done everything right and then it goes all wrong.

And if the odds even out, you are due for a spectacular run of good luck.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Thank you girlie, I know that i have to battle through it and as a serious breeder, continue on. I have 11 babies right now, but only one mom lactating well...One I am giving a break after her retained babies, and the other-I am unsure if she is lactating enough.  I hope I get my good luck soon. I am pairing some show types soon and I could really use the luck there!


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

With so many does having the same issue at the same time, I would suspect the diet change as well. I lean towards the comment that the new diet may be missing a nutrient that is needed in fetal development. Have you considered using Harlan Texlad? The 18% protein blocks are aboiut the same price as mazuri and they test every batch for problems with the corn.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

...girlie...heehee....I'm old enough that I guess I don't mind that...60 next B-Day.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks all!
Just a small update, all living babies are now doing well. The mouse that is lactating really well is taking on 9 for a week or so, it is too many but I don't know how else to save these babies. Everyone still looks fat!!!
The second momma can only handle two right now. 
The third momma is on Baytril after retaining for so long, but back to original weight and doing OK.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Just a small update, all living babies are now doing well. The mouse that is lactating really well is taking on 9 for a week or so, it is too many but I don't know how else to save these babies. Everyone still looks fat!!!


She'll handle nine OK, don't worry. You might have to give them some extra food to get them fatted up but I doubt they'd be seriously underweight.

Maize does contain folate, which helps prevent birth deficiencies and what have you, but I doubt a lack of maize when so many other breeders feed a maize free diet is your problem. I think it's more likely to be a virus or extremely bad luck xx


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Glad to hear the rest are doing well. Good work; keep it up!


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I've also had a bad run of luck, with one very small litter miscarried and one culled by the mother. I realized, however, that the room they were in had gotten rather chilly, compared to how it'd been. That's the only thing that's changed in my mousery, so I've given them a small space heater and more fluffy nesting material.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I am sorry for your set backs L! I hope you didn't lose anything from Pumpkin. I've been fiddling with the temp down there since the first two does and it is stable enough, though I think it was a contributing factor.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Really old thread, I know! But I'm just checking out members' experiences with miscarriages to educate myself and found this.

With my first litter they were on lab blocks and no corn. There was a very slight dip in weight in the pregnancy but other than a runt, the litter was fine. The mouse's daughter is currently pregnant and had a serious weight drop last night. She IS on a diet with corn. So based on that really unscientific observation I'd guess luck too but...who knows. Thought I'd share!


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm having the same kind of problem here.
7 of 8 litters failed completely.

the only change I made was to pelleted litter, but mine are on pine pellets.
switching back to aspen today. what are yours on if you don't mind me asking?


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Me? Mine are admittedly on pine (the shavings came free) but I try to mix with newspaper pellets a) to keep the amount down and b) the pellets are way better just way more expensive. The doe that just gave birth to 11 is on a mix of pine, carefresh, and newspaper pellets.


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## andypandy29us (Aug 10, 2012)

lol I think i must be a cheepskate as mine have a thin covering of sawdust on the bottom of the cage with shredded paper ... from school we have a lot to shred .... i pay out nothing for the paper just the time and electric to shred which is easy and cheap to do  ... It also makes great nexting material the mice love to build nests and pile it up in the corners so they can peek out of the clear plastic of the cage


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I shredded a ton of newspaper for my nursing doe and she appears to not have a clue what to do with it all, haha. I might have put too much in.  I'm going to try doing the paper thing more though. I doubt it's very absorbent but it ends up in the recycling bin anyway.


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## andypandy29us (Aug 10, 2012)

It doesnt absorb much but it is good for them to hide in and give them a chance to get away from others when they want some peace ... it helps prevent fights ..... I put loads in ... fill under the shelf area ...cant see the mice when they are in there ...


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