# My Litters...



## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

They're due on Monday, so I figured now is a good time to get fat pre-pictures. I put them in with the bucks at the same time, and so I'm hoping they'll drop on the same day. I'm trying something a little different this time around; I'm going to cull Karrin's litter over about a week, and leave Mercy's litter alone. If I see that it makes that much of a difference, I'll start culling all of my litters, and get some healthier mice, hopefully!

This is Mercy, my broken blue doe. She built a nest, so she'll be ready when the time comes. She has a partial belt, a little headspot, and a rectangle spot on her belly.









This is TJ, you recognize him from my other posts. I think he's a beige/chocolate/mock chocolate/okay, I give up. I have no idea what he is. But his first litter is almost two weeks old (See "Little Spotted Babies"), and has some variety in it. I'm hoping for more broken babies, hopefully some with more color than his first litter. They're pretty, but I like my broken mice to be more color than white, and they're mostly all white with dark rumps and patches on their heads. So all told, this should be a very colorful litter!









This is Karrin. She is siamese, and to me she just looks hugely uncomfortable. She didn't build a nest for herself, so I put a little home in her cage for her.









This is Spike, my black fox and the daddy of Karrin's babies. I'm hoping for fox and siamese babies from them.

















Here are Spike, Karrin, and Mercy.









Mercy and Karrin. You can see Karrin is a little bigger than Mercy, and she might drop sooner, even though they were put in with their bucks at the same time.









What colors do you think I'll get? How many do you think I'll have? Ready? GO!


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

Oh wow!! They are gorgeous!!! I reckon you could get anything from black splodgy to siamese foxes with Karrin  Actually I have no idea about genetics  But I know I got a whole mix from Mintola (black and white broken marked) and Sookie (Siamese fox) but that could be something to do with the fact that Mintola's parents were black dilute tan and broken marked dove and Sookie's parents being a naked male and a chocolate fox :lol: Whatever they are they will be pretty  As for numbers -lots!!! :lol: :lol:


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

I know what you mean by a real genetic oddball mix--I have a black merle fox I'm breeding to a black roan, and I have no clue what the babies will be. They'll be due next week, so look for pictures of them then!


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## zany_toon (Apr 3, 2010)

Lol! Will definitely keep my eyes peeled for piccies and keep my fingers crossed that all babies are cute and healthy


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

They all look so well-taken care of! Gorgeous little mouselets!


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

Cant wait for the babies & pictures of them


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Karrin gave birth early this morning sometime. She didn't have babies at midnight last night, but she did at 8 this morning. Mercy didn't have babies this morning but she did today at about 4-5PM. I haven't seen Mercy's babies yet, but I counted Karrin's, and she had 5 PE, 5 BE, and one chewed up PE. I removed the dead baby, but when I peeked in again this afternoon, she was eating another baby! It was already dead so I didn't stop her, but I hope she doesn't eat all of them! I was planning to cull some of this litter anyway, but I don't want to cull, and have her eat the rest of them! I don't have pictures yet, if Karrin is being really sensitive I don't want to bother her too much!


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

I have to say this- you have had all your pregnant does out into a pen to photograph them, and been in the nests when litters were born- within the hour ! my advice is dont handle preganant mice and leave the litter alone for a couple of days when born.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Here are day one pics of each litter. I will get side by side comparisons eventually. At that point, I have culled two from Karrin's litter, leaving 9 (but you can only see eight... I have no idea where the other baby ended up). As of today, I have culled two more, leaving 7 babies. In a couple days I'll get current pics up.

Mercy's babies:









Karrin's babies:


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

I can start to see some broken marks in Mercy's litter already, but what's really intersting is that even though Spike and Karrin are solid, there is at least one broken marked in thier litter. I know they're recessive, but neither Spike or Karrin have white spotting to show they might carry the broken gene.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

I've seen a number of examples of pregnant does being handled in ways I thought were risky and very uncaring. I try not to handle does when they are close to delivery, as they are probably more likely to see that as a threat, and may cause a problem when the litter is thrown. I even saw a pic of someone holding a very pregnant doe in midair by her tail tip; I just couldn't believe someone could be so callous and stupid.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

I heard that holding a very pregnant doe up by the tail could cause them to miscarry, is that true?


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

I have pictures today! I have culled Karrin's litter down to 7, and I'll cull a couple more before I'm done. Mercy still has 11 pups, and they are already showing some interesting patterns. So far, side by side, I can't see a diffence yet.

They are 4 days old now:
Karrin's on the left, Mercy's at right, but two of the dark ones from Karrin kept rolling into Mercy's lot.









Karrin left, Mercy right. Still don't see much of a difference. Maybe it will be easier to see over th next few days.


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

I try to avoide handling very pregnant does and I usually dont handle the litter until day 3, but some does I know really well and I can handle the babies on day 1. Handling too much can cause stress, which can lead to baby eating,etc.

cute babies


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Karrin and Mercy's babies are one week old today. Yesterday I culled Karrin down to five babies, three girls and two boys. Mercy still has 11, 7 girls and 4 boys. Also this morning, my doe Blue (pictures to follow!) had babies by my buck Dresden. There were 11 of them, but one was dead and one was half the size of the other, so I removed them from the litter. That would be 9 little babies left. I'm letting them rest, but I should be able to get pictures of everyone tomorrow.

Here is Blue, she's a black roan:









And here is Dresden, a black merle fox:

















Sorry for the picture quality, I know it's horrible! Seriously, what's the secret of taking good pictures?


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## HtrKid (Apr 4, 2010)

I would love to have one of those roan. I have been looking for one forever. 
Very nice.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks. Blue had another litter by a black self, and all by babies were selfs. I'm really hoping there will be some roans/merles in this litter.


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## HtrKid (Apr 4, 2010)

Will you be getting rid of any of them? Because i am interested.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rid of the adults or the babies? Of the adults, I only have Dresden and Blue, and I'm keeping them. Of the babeis? Unless one is absolutely too striking to lose, all of them will be available. If you can figure a way to get to CA, you're welcome to as many as you like.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

The fur is starting to come in on Mercy and Karrin's litters. It looks like I have a dove and a broken dove from Karrin, as well as two blacks and a broken black. It is too early to tell if any of them are fox/tan. I thought breeding a fox to a siamese would get foxes and siamese? No selfs? Now I wonder what the other PE that I culled would have looked like.

On Mercy's babies, so far there are about four different shades coming in, from 3 or 4 that are obviously black, to some dark grey shading that I think might be blue, to some lighter shading that is I don't know what, and one that looks RY. I already know that TJ carries RY, so it looks like Mercy does too. And she's blue, d/d, and if some of the babies are blue, then he'll be D/d. Not sure what the ones lighter than blue but darker than RY are. The little tiny hairs have a golden look to them, but that might be the light. It almost looks agouti, but neither of the parents are agouti, unless TJ has been holding out on me! And of course all the babies are spotted. Some have only a little white on their noses or heads, and some have pretty extensive spotting all over, but not as much as Molly's litter did (Little Spotted Babies).

Maybe it's because I'm not taking day by day shots, but it seems to me that these litters are growing up faster than Molly's litter did. I'll get some comparison photos tomorrow.


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

Cute

Im putting together 3 merles in a few weeks


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## HtrKid (Apr 4, 2010)

Where at in CA are you located?


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Here are pictures of Karrin and Mercy's litters, and a comparison picture of Molly's babies at the same age. I'm really sorry for my camera. For some reason all the pictures are fuzzy, even the ones I took from a distance.

Both litters together, Mercy's on left.









Molly's litter at the same age. Her litter was definitely slow to develope.









Karrin's girls. One black self, so Spike is at/a, one black fox/tan, and one broken dove. The boys (not pictured) are one dove and one broken black self/tan/fox. Not sure what yet.









Mercy's boys. One RY, so Mercy is also E/e. The others are a bit of a mystery. One is black, but two have golden brown hair coming in (several of the girls are the same color too). It looks a lot like agouti to me, but I don't understand where the agouti came from. It has to be TJ, see the first post for his picture, but what kind of agouti is he???









Mercy's girls. I'm really pleased with the amount of color on these babies.









Karrin's broken dove girl on left, Mercy's broken RY on right. Still look the same size to me.









Karrin's fox on left, Mercy's broken black on right.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Here are also Blue's babies, they're not much to look at yet.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

ALSO... my agouti Ash is pregnant, and I'm sorry to say I have no idea who the father is. She was with Spike (black fox) for two weeks, and didn't show any sign of pregnancy. She's a really bold mouse, and Spike is shy, so I thought they weren't getting together. So I moved her to another buck's cage, and she's been there a week, but she's more than a week pregnant. So they're probably Spike's babies, but there's a chance that they might be Christopher's (chocolate self). I guess the colors will show.

Here is Ash:
Doesn't this scream more than 1 week pregnant to you?









Here is Christopher:









Here is Spike:









Once the little ones get their fur in, then we'll know who's paying child support! :lol:


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ash had her babies today, I just checked her once in the morning and once as I was leaving for work, and there were no babies in the morning, but there were some this afternoon. I left her alone after that. I have a new camera, so I'll update with new pictures.

Strangely, of Mercy's babies, I think a couple are chocolate, and 3-4 others are almost certainly agouti. So, the question is: who is agouti, TJ or Mercy? My money is on TJ, but I have no clue, so I don't know. What would a blue agouti look like? Pictures are apreciated!


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

Heres a link to a blue agouti:
http://www.thefunmouse.com/varieties/images/varieties/blueagouti.jpg


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks, Windy! No, Mercy looks nothing like that. So it must be TJ. I wonder what an A* B* ce/ce D* P* would look like? TJ looks a little like the picture of the blue agouti, except he has a brownish instead of grayish coat. Maybe he's A* b/b ce/ce D* P*, or possibly A* B* ce/ce D* P*? I think probably B* because I think (this is just a hypothesis, I don't know) b/b would be more reddish, and he doesn't really look red toned to me.

Does this sound possible to anyone?


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

Your welcome 
Blue agouti can range in coloring,some show brown tones more then others, so he may be a blue agouti with strong brown tones to him.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Maybe... this genetic stuff can be so complicated! As an update, something went wrong with Ash's litter, when I checked last night she had three babies, and lots of baby parts. This morning, only one baby was left, but there was a lot of very dark, almost black brusing all over its lower half, so I culled it because I didn't think it would survive anyway.

On the other hand, I have new pics for Mercy and Karrin's lots, and I sexed Blue's litter. 6 boys and three girls. They are all (Blue's) getting darker. I don't have pics of them yet, I'll wait until it looks like they'll have markings of some sort. But as of now, I'd say all 9 of Blue's are going to be black. Whether any are roan or merle, or fox/tan, remains to be seen. If all of them are solid, I may keep a buck to breed back to Blue, and a doe to breed to Dresen, and see if I can get roans/merles that way.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

So here are the pictures I promised. They are ten days old now, at what I think is pretty much the cutest stage of babyhood. One thing I've noticed that that Mercy's litter is much more active than Karrin's. I don't know if they have more energy, or just have to sturggle more against siblings than Karrin's lot do. They still look about the same size and everything to me.

Everyone, Mercy's on left.









Mercy's on right, Karrin's on left.









Karrin's lot. The ones I thought were dove, I think are starting to develope points, which would make them siamese, which makes a lot more sense. It's hard to tell, since the nose in the most noticeable, and the other "dove" baby is spotted and has no color on her face.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Mercy's lot is the interesting bunch Oddly enough, there appears to be no blues among them... but just about everything else!

The blacks:









The agoutis:









The ones I think are chocolate:









My odd little RY:









The last baby I'm not sure about:








I'm thinking maybe either blue agouti, or possibly lilac?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Cuties!! *cootchycootchy*


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, even though they don't have their fur in, the skin markings on some of Blue's babies are looking mottled. My camera doesn't pick it up, so I'll wait until they get some fur. But it looks like a few are definitely roan/merle. Others look completely black so far. And it will be interesting to see if any of them turn up to be tan/foxes, since Dresden is a fox/tan. I'm not entirely sure what he is, since I just found out my black "fox" is apparently a tan, since I bred him to a siamese and got a couple selfs.

BTW, does that sound right? Breeding at/a buck to a/a ch/ch doe and getting selfs with no tan markings means the buck at/a is NOT ch/ch?


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## flutterbybutterfly (May 31, 2010)

All the genetics mean nowt to me  its the same with the syrians, i know what is compatable, what isnt and by name, what mixing colours creates but i have never managed to leard all the codes, its the way i think, same as i am never been able to learn my times tables.

All part of the dyslexia/discalulasia(sp)!!

But if you wee smeeze mice are anything like gerbils, i have a few colourpoints, burmese i think (just inherited them) but they havent started to show their colour points until 3 weeks, before that, they seemed to be unexpected selfs in the litter. I have had Siamese mouse babies that all seemed to be self at first, same with kittens too, none of the colour points like siamese or burmese seem to show up in the initial colouring.

That said and slightly off topic, i think you are brave handling the babies so early, i know with mice it can be done but is it really necessary? What can you learn other than number by handling in the first day or two unless culling? Its unfairly stressful, even if the female is well tempered enough not to destroy her own litter, doesnt mean she isnt affected.

If you bred syrian hamsters, you wouldnt dream of going near the nest so early because 9 times out of 10 the female would cull the litter, no breeders or forums allow such early baby photos or advocate handling heavily pregnant females or very young babies because of the impression it gives to the inexperianced keepers that may be reading...

just a thought...


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

The ones you think are chocolate look like blue on my monitor....and the ones you say are agouti look bluish too...


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## windyhill (Jan 19, 2010)

I love their markings!

Siamese mice dont get their points until the first time they molt, around 5-6 weeks. 
The points are temperature sensitive and the warmer it is, the lighter the points are. They are usually whiteish in color until they get points and then they can range from white/ivory to beige in color.
I think they are just doves. 
On my screen, the chocolates look chocolate, but very light.
The agoutis do look blueish.
Is the last one ticked? It looks lilac to me.

As for handling them, I handle my litters starting at 3 days old and have no problems, but I do avoide handlings very pregnant does. Early handligns helps them get used to be ing handled by people.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

I know the pictures look different than what the mice really are, but trust me, the mice look warmer in person. I'm still trying out settings on my new camera. The ones I don't know are dove or whatever, they aren't grey. They're a light brown color... Maybe I'll try to get better pictures today....


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## Sarodentry (May 24, 2010)

to get better pictures if you have the portrait setting on your camera use that if it's a digital it will have the setting. :]


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks, I'll try that.


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