# shame



## kerryann

went to see a breeder tonight and my god i was shocked!!!
there was 12 breeding boxes and in each box there was about 50mice.male,females,babies and adults.there was pinkies lying around everywhere and mostly all females where pregnant even the babies  
i will take pics of the couple im not so sure of and u guys can help identify them
thanks


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## moustress

That's what a lot of feeder breeders do. The babies don't stay for long. They are just too dang tasty.


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## Erica08

Moustress is right but it's still a shame. With so many mice in one tank I would think they'd get stressed and sick and I don't particularly want to feed sick mice to my animals. It's about as bad as feeding chicken feet("chicken by product) to your dogs.


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## moustress

Chicken feet can be dang tasty too, if stewed just right. It's not chicken by-product it's dim-sum.


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## CatWoman

It's a shame that profit-motivated feeder breeders don't realize that production goes up exponentially when better care is taken and as a result, profit goes up in similar proportions.

I ordered some frozen feeder mice from a new supplier a few weeks ago and I ended up throwing the opened bags in the trash, then returning the unopened ones for a refund. When I opened the bags, and the smell just about knocked me over - and that was while they were still frozen. Then, I had to vacuum them all off, because most of bedding and feces was in the bag with them. Then, as I was thawing them (in water), their fur started sloughing off. It was awful and I felt so bad, because it was such a waste of so many little lives... and at the same time, it was probably a relief for them when you consider the conditions they must have been living in.. 

I don't expect all feeder breeders to be as weird as I am, baking edible huts and building Popsicle stick villages.. but there really should be a reasonable minimum standard of basic care. Of course, all of this is why I decided to start breeding my own mice to begin with, because I didn't want to continue to financially support two industries that make huge profits off of the substandard care of animals.

And, on the OT side - my dogs and cats LOVE chicken feet! I don't see a thing wrong with feeding feet.. or a beak.. or even a brain, here and there.. but everything in moderation. Feet don't make up 100% of the chicken, so they shouldn't make up 100% of the diet. Of course, people who have gotten to know me a bit more probably aren't the least bit surprised by that opinion.


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## kerryann

well his house was full of reptiles. im just glad i could save 6. all of them were healthy(surprisingly) the black tan i got(adult) is pregnant. atleast she will get looked after properly here.they have settled in well and very happy with their new home.


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## Lou-Fraser

i think i no where u went kerryann, was it at burntisland??


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## kerryann

yeah it was!!!


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## WillowDragon

Pretty much all of the frozen mice/rats/rabbits you buy at rep shops are raised like that.

This is the biggest reason people who breed to feed there own animals are welcomed on here, they need to learn the best way to look after the 'food' for their reptiles.

Personally I wouldn't buy or breed any animal that I had seen living like that, they were breeding unregulated, which is a huge thing when it comes to inbreeding. They could have allsorts of genetic problems that you will be giving to the next generation!!


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## kerryann

i bought them because i thought id be giving them a better life  
but wouldnt have taken them if they seemed unwell. they seem healthy and very friendly


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## WillowDragon

Give them a better life, thats a good thing. Just don't breed from them.


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## Jack Garcia

I don't know what this particular feeder breeder does or how s/he operates, but profit does not go up in similar proportions when producing feeders wholesale. You have to remember that mice are almost always loss leaders when in retail, but in wholesale you must make a profit (there are no loss leaders the same way in wholesale) because wholesale is prior to retail. The only way that large feeder farms (tens of thousands of animals) stay in business is by having a razor-thin profit line where they can offset production costs by putting more animals in fewer cages and feeding them less-expensive food. I don't think it's an ideal situation for anybody (the mice, the people, or the snakes).


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## Lou-Fraser

i went there a last year and got the shock of my life  the smell was just eye watering  i just couldnt believe the conditions these mice were being kept and the rats :shock: i went away with 5 mice when i was only wanting 2, i keep thinking that i should call the SSPCA but i dunno if feeder breeders are allowed to keep mice in those type of conditions, its just so sad


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## WillowDragon

There should be rules for cage space for sure, look into it.


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## kerryann

i was shocked. :shock: i wanted to take them all home. i seen the rats also. too many in one cage


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## Lou-Fraser

*kerryann*
do think its an act of cruelty?? i mean surely feeder breeders dont keep their stock like that? the mice that i have got are fine, (and probably glad to be out of that horrible place) but i just feel guilty not doing anything about it and if i did what would happen to all the rats and mice? culled??


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## zany_toon

I've been to that guy as well  Got three ASFs from him, thankfully all okay. I'm sure that Webzdebz got a few girls from him that turned out to be pregnant when she got them (they were only babies themselves) and the babies had health problems  From my dealings with the SSPCA before, in a situation like these poor mice were kept I'm pretty sure that he would be asked to improve living conditions and that only some animals would be removed if that wasn't done - animals are all healthy, with heat food and water so basic duty of care is being adhered to and it's only the overcrowding that they may be concerned about  Which means that the breeder is still left with plenty of animals to carry on with and repeat this all over again :evil:


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## kerryann

the adult black tan i got from him is pregnant.just as well she is an adult.dont know how old she is though. i took her because she jumped right onto my hand, think she was saying "please take me"  
the ones i got from them are now in a big tank with loads of healthy good food and nice bedding and most important Mousey toys. they seem alot happier! i hope the babies i got from him arnt pregnant!! most likely are. atleast they are here were they are going to get looked after and the space that they deserve


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## zany_toon

At least they will be happy now  Sounds like your little black tan girl had the same reaction as my three ASFs - two practically walked into the carrier by themselves to come home and the other was that desperate to get away that she threw herself onto the floor (she was on the top shelf so you'll know how high up she was after being in there) then ran and hid in the corner until i brought over the carrier with two of her friends. I really hope that the others you got from him aren't pregnant and that all the babies are okay. If my memory serves me properly I'm sure that the pregnant girl webzdebz got from this "breeder" (I'll use the term loosely :| ) died just before the babies had finished weaning and that two of the three babies that survived have health problems. Fingers crossed it was a one off...


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## MouseHeaven

CatWoman said:


> It's a shame that profit-motivated feeder breeders don't realize that production goes up exponentially when better care is taken and as a result, profit goes up in similar proportions.
> 
> I don't expect all feeder breeders to be as weird as I am, baking edible huts and building Popsicle stick villages.. but there really should be a reasonable minimum standard of basic care. Of course, all of this is why I decided to start breeding my own mice to begin with, because I didn't want to continue to financially support two industries that make huge profits off of the substandard care of animals.


I totally agree with this! I am a feeder breeder on the side, and I hate to say it, but some other feeder breeders I know take horrible care of their mice.. it's sad 

My mice are all in separate tanks, and each female and her babies is kept alone until the babies are weaned. I am a little nutty too, they also have their own popsicle stick village. I even made them a swing  Maybe I'll take some pics


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## JustMouse

That sounds just like the pet store I stole my newest two mice from... which is awful because those conditions were the worst I'd ever seen. I'm sure that they have a much better life with you know! Although I think that we should work not to support breeders like that.


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## moustress

:shock: Heehee...you one bad boyo/gurlo :?: ...me, why, I would never do anything like that.....snicker....in my whole life...
...,hoo boy!

Heehee....now whose life was that, anyway? :|

That breeder has a date with karma.


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## JustMouse

Ya seriously... how could you make your whole carrier / hobby be based on just making tons of cheap, sick mice? Respect for life is so important... 
And yes i was bit bad but.... you know... I was saving lives  haha!


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## webzdebs

yup you're right it was Betty and she passed away when the babies were only 13 days old, as a result i had to hand rear the babies - thats why i aim to breed healthy mice to be everything that betty wasn't - poor girl.

I wouldn't have anymore from him, not that i don't want to save some from him, the reality is the females would probably be pregnant and I just dont have the room if they all were.

And yes the mouse Elton from them has GSD which is most commonly found in very poorly inbred animals. Thankfully the other girls dont seem to show any signs of ill health.


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## evansrabbitranch

I am in shock. 50 mice in one cage? I imagine they were not the size of a 55 gallon aquarium. I get horrified when I see what some of my corn snake friends feel is ok for their mice. I felt ashamed of my own mice when I had 18 of various ages in one tank because my other two tanks broke and I was rushing to do something to not have to cull back to one pair. Just because my snakes eat some of the mice I raise does not mean they deserve a poorer quality of life! Those poor mice! In the US does not matter why you have them that is cruelty and negect, depending on the state can be up to $2,000 in fines and 1 year in jail. I doubt the person takes much better care of the reptiles he has than the mice. Please think about reporting him please! I would hope some one would report me if I got like that.


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## racingmouse

I contacted this very breeder only a week ago and although he said he had lots of mice available but could`nt deliver them to me unless he had other `deliveries` in my area, I was`nt aware that I might have been buying young, overcrowded and potentially pregnant females. So much as I like the feeling of taking mice away from these situations, I`m glad now that I did`nt. This kind of husbandry is doing no good at all for these mice and potentially breeding bad genes into them.

Mice are not commodities, they are living, breathing, intelligent wee animals and I won`t bare the thought of this kind of ignorance. It`s not necessary. Breeding mice on this scale should be done with a little more care and attention without overcrowding or breeding for the hell of it. AND, they should all be bred with intention, not because they are just for feeders.

I was in a position to take anything because I have a lone female, but going in blind like this was silly and not what I would do again. I`m glad I learned about him before i made any further contact.


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## evansrabbitranch

racingmouse said:


> Mice are not commodities, they are living, breathing, intelligent wee animals and I won`t bare the thought of this kind of ignorance. It`s not necessary. Breeding mice on this scale should be done with a little more care and attention without overcrowding or breeding for the hell of it. AND, they should all be bred with intention, not because they are just for feeders.
> 
> quote]
> 
> I wish more people would think like this. Mostly the last line. I breed mice for a few reasons pretty much in this order:
> 
> 1. I like them a lot.
> 2. They have amazing colors and personalities.
> 3. To feed my snakes
> 
> My goals is breeding are mostly to improve size, improve not suddenly jump to show. Improve on coat and color quality, and have well mannered, sweet mice. The "feeder" part is how I choose to cull out any not meeting my other standards. I would never crowd my mice because then (as I am dealing with now due to caging issues) I would not be able to properly track my mice to see if I am seeing any improvement.
> 
> I usually get chased off snake groups with a feeder section for caring about the mouses well being and colors. I get told its not a pet site find a pet site if I want to talk about that kind of stuff. Most mouse groups chase me off because I have snakes, I really love this site


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## racingmouse

That just goes to show that there are two mind-sets when it comes to breeding mice, whether breeders cull out some of their young stock for feeders or not. It`s all about management, but also compassion. The people who chase you away because you show that compassion don`t belong on a board like this. I used to be anti-feeder and anti-reptile, but you have to be realistic and see things from others needs and points of view, as long as they have good protocol and a means to an end, then fine. I just don`t like to see mice being badly kept, or kept, bred willy-nilly and meet their end in a cruel way. That to me is not good practice or husbandry.


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## evansrabbitranch

I completely agree, I try hard to give my mice the best life I can (am learning each time I read on here) and to help them have as painless and stressfree of an end as I can. Because of such I do not feed live or willingly/knowingly take in snakes that only eat live. Saw a vid on youtube, saw it once in person, both times it made me actually toss my cookies. I refuse to do it. Oo, reminds me I have to clean out my cages, doesn't smell just looking a bit dirty.


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## minibears

even the quality of a short life should be valued, what goes into ure mice goes into ure reptiles. the aussie pythons forum has an 'other pets' section, they also talk to me an my user name is mousegirl! lol


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## Bridgette Rena

I started my mice breeding by breeding feeders for the wildlife rehabilitation facility I worked at. I was extremely particular however about how my mice were bred and kept. I only bred what I knew would be used (fed) and fed my mice the best quality food. They were kept in large airy cages and over crowding was one thing I made sure NEVER to let happen. I believe that the life of anything should be respecting no matter what their 'purpose' is.

Now that I've decided to get into breeding again I am going to breed pet mice as well as feeders. My feeder and pet mice however will both receive the best quality care and be treated the same. Seeing how my own pet store deals and handles the breeding and selling of their feeder mice makes me want to give mine a better quality of life even more so. They buy their feeders from a whole-sale breeder who keeps their mice in much of the same conditions as the place you described. I was told if I breed feeders they will start to buy from me instead if I can price match. So I'm going to do it. At least then my store won't be supporting such a place.


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## evansrabbitranch

Kudos to you! Go with it just be sure they do not over crowd the tanks at the shop and you have made a win for mice  Many people buy pets out of feeder tanks as they are sometimes cheaper than "pet" mice at stores. Sounds like it is a good deal on both ends!


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