# Herefords



## ian

I picked up these two does by chance yesterday, I think there was a little group of them being offered so some other members might have a few too. I have wanted herefords for a while but didnt want to take on another variety however when someone says you can take whatever you want its harder to resist. 
One of them looks a bit tubby although I was assured she isnt pregnant I hope she is as I dont have a hereford buck and both of them are old enough.

I think they are very unusual and interesting looking mice.


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## Maze

I have 2 does as well!!!  My OH couldn't resist even though he was supposed to be the sensible one and stop me! lol :lol:


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## dangermouse

stunning mice you have there............. im green with envy......lol......  
seriously though well done.


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## Maze

Ian did you get any info on them from the guy? cause we left early and missed him.


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## ian

I got some info but I just thought I could have a look online to find out more-unfortunately because they are such a 'new' variety theres nothing much about them.

From what I was told the gene is dominant and works similarly to rumpwhites where you can cross in a non hereford and you will haver a mixed litter with some herefords and some selfs. Maybe Cait or someone can correct me?

If your looking to show you need to make sure the face markings cover the eyes but doesnt go under the chin, they must also have a regular shaped white rectangle or line on the under runnning from between the forelegs down. The tail should have a stop which means the colour continues from the body to half way down the tial and then the end half of the tail should be white. It sounds like a really complicated breed to develop!


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## Maze

sounds interesting!!! Do you know how old they are I'm guessing they're from the same litter. :lol:


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## Cait

For anyone who is an NMC member have a look in your rules and standards book at the standard for what they should look like. I also have some pics if anyone would like me to post them here for reference.


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## ian

Any idea about the genetics Cait?

I've heard they are dominant and was told it worked similar to rump whites, but does it have the same fatality if homozygous?


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## Cait

I have never bred them myself but I don't believe they are homozygous lethal.


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## Cait

Here are the pics for you:










































And the under:


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## NaomiR

I think they're really striking and would definately be tempted if I wasn't so taken with siamese and himalayans  As I understand it the hf gene is dominent so you can breed it to pretty much any self and the resultant litter will all be hf's?

Would love to see some black hf's how lovely would they be???


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## Maze

OMG!!  the red one is GORGEOUS!!!!! I'm so glad my OH got them now! I've taken to them so quickly.


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## ian

Well thats good, I dont need a hereford buck just yet then, I might see what I get out of them with one of my blacks, I think black herefords would be nice....I have been thinking about working with some reds in the future once I have sorted out my blue rumpwhites, I'll see how it goes.


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## Kage Davies

I got one too :3.

The guy said he didn't know how old they were exactly, but over eight weeks for sure . Mine is lovely, she is by far the friendliest mouse I own. I wish I'd snapped up two now, I got first pick!


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## Debbie

I got a little Hereford doe at the show too  
She is a dear little thing so calm and sweet natured I couldn't resist. I had planned to introduce her to our pet group of girls but, I am a little worried that she may be pregnant :shock: She has a definate bulge now when I pick her up and although I am hoping it is just she is a bit of a fatty, it really does look like she may be preggers to me !!!


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## NaomiR

well you'll know soon enough if she is pregnant but I would leave her with the silver doe because she's already had a litter and she'll help her out


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## Debbie

I will leave them two together now until I know for sure as they are a very happy pair  Lucky there is not long to wait before I know for sure. I suppose thats something


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## Kage Davies

Mine looks a but chunky but I thought she was just well fed! She's in a cage, so she'd better not pop pinkies XD. I was going to breed her to my sable in a week or so, so that will probably give me blacks with tan ticking, among other things. He always seems to throw blacks :3. I'm crossing my fingers for some more chocolates though....


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## ian

One of mine is looking very pregnant. I thought she was just chunky but she has been eating the same diet as my other mice which shouldn't make them fat and she is getting bigger by the day. I'm thrilled if she is pregnant although obviously in different circumstances it might not be convenient.

If anyone else gets surprise hereford litters I'd be happy to take some more on as I would like to develop a (small) line of them for show.


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## Kage Davies

I will pop her into one of my RUBs, just to be safe then. Don't want her to have bubbas in the cage. I will happily share, if you want some. I was going to breed them a bit anyway. I won't be keeping any spare bucks unless requested, though. Dunno how show quality mine would turn out! But I will be working on getting satins, blacks and I'll see what else pops out :3.


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## ian

Well mine is still a bit rounded but not what she was and also no babies yet so I am going to assume that she isnt pregnant any more which is a shame really.
Anyone else had anything go on with these herefords?


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## NaomiR

I haven't heard of any baby herefords which yes is a shame, but they really would have been too young so lets all just look forward to them being mated up when they're big and strong


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## ian

MIne are fairly big they looked about 10 weeks when I picked them up. I will keep an eye on them for another couple of days but after that I'll have to start thinking about choosing a buck, I think it will probably be one of the blue bucks.


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## Kage Davies

Mine also got quite large, and then deflated. I found a couple of spots of blood in their bedding, so... I'm leaving her until the end of the week, just in case, but I think we're not getting any.

I'll probably put her in with my sable buck in a week or so. Then put the babbies together and get, hopefully, some satin herefords :3.


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## ian

I think maybe settling into a new home has effected the poregnancies?

Well I popped my other hereford doe in with my blue buck and I'm expecting hereford x blue babies very soon (I hope).


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## NaomiR

ian said:


> I'm expecting hereford x blue babies very soon (I hope).


I can't wait to see them


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## Kage Davies

Blue Herefords later on, perhaps?

:love1 :love


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## ian

Thats the plan, if it works!


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## Kage Davies

Share? You love us, right? :love1 :love

Lols.


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## ian

Of course I will, once I get enough or any.....I'm still suspicious that these hereford does just like to bloat out and pretend to be pregnant! I should have the babies within the week if she is really pregnant and thye should all be black. I cant find much out about the hereford genetics so I've no idea what the markings will look like as its an outcross with a blue self?


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## Kage Davies

He wasn't very forthcoming, lol. I did ask about age and genetics and stuff. All I found out was that the hereford bit was dominant. And it must have double chocolate to show chocolate. Eh, my genetics are rubbish.


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## ian

So all of the babies should have hereford markings, I doubt they would be proper showable hereford markings unless you put hereford x hereford but it gives a bit of space to improve the line which is a good thing.


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## Kage Davies

All of the ones he gave away were quite heavily faulted, he was saying. I couldn't tell if he was saying it was a fault for the white to go inside or outside the eye, but they all had that fault one side or both. And some had white ticking.


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## ian

I've got one which has a good face but very litlte white on the under and no stop on the tail and the other one he recommended me to take, she has a bit too much white on the face but an ideal under and tail stop. It's seems quite a complicated variet with all the differnet elements, I'm not going to take it too seriously or I'll have a melt down the hereofrds will be a nice relaxing almost hobby line. Unless my competative edge kicks in!


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## ian

I have hereford babies! not a big litter but all the babies look wel fed and a good size so far so I'm thrilled.
I'll try to get pics when/if they develop markings, I've no idea what to expect.


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## dangermouse

brilliant news ... im so pleased for you.


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## Maze

wow how lucky!! lol lucky you


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## ian

3 Babies, only 1 doe and 2 bucks! They are humungous and considering they were born during the night they were so easy to sex. They seem strangely well developed they even have quite dark pigment, I can tell they are going to be black already and no sign of markings yet, I have my fingers crossed though. Its as if they were born days ago and I missed it, I didnt by the way!


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## julieszoo

I like these - they look very much like badger rats  Any chance of a few more pics as your litters develop please?


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## ian

Ill try to take a picture today they are 3 Days old now. They don't seem to be marked though unfortunately, maybe it will develop later?


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## ian

Here they are, 3 days old and no face markings, maybe it is recessive after all and these babies will be carrying the hereford gene?


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## Kage Davies

Or perhaps these are single gene carriers, and you lucked out? I put mine in with my black tan buck, so I'll let you know what pops out in three weeks time. Fingers crossed.


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## ian

Oh yeah, that would be a bit crap! That is probably what has happened now you say it... :roll:


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## Kage Davies

Yeah DX. Unfortunately you'll have to breed her again for any, if that's the case. I hope mine's not the same. I popped her in at the same time as the rumpwhite to litter together, thinking I'd be able to tell all the babies apart XD.


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## ian

Yeah you should be able to tell, the rump whites develop their markings around 3 days and if they are black or agouti its quite obvious, the chocolates might need an extra day before the markings come in properly.

I might keep one of these unmarked bucks and put them back to the adult herefords, the bucks wont have the hereford gene but they might not have the hereford genes but they may have modifyers which will improve the hereford markings. If it doesnt work the second time then I will give up on them!


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## Kage Davies

But if I get selfs from the rumpwhite and the Hereford... Guess it won't matter much, no reason to keep selfs .


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## ian

Yeah just get rid of all of them (do you cull pinkies), then the important marked babies get more milky goodness.


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## Kage Davies

Lol, milky goodness :lol:. I wasn't culling, but am now, although mostly I just take out the boys, unless I need one. I was shocked by the difference it made to my latest litter :shock:. I know everyone always says how much better the size it, but its completely different when you actually see it in your own litters. These bubs have little fat rolls, its so cute ^^. I also tried fostering for the first time. I was surprised how well it worked o.o.

But back on track, lol. I mostly end up selling my surplus to petstores, and they much prefer marked, so I'll be taking these selfs out. Its not like they'll be carrying much exciting to breed them back for something, and I bet they'll all be black/black tans/agoutis.


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## julieszoo

Aww, that's a shame, they don't look like they are going to get any face markings tbh, on rats at that sort of stage you could easily see the pigment where the white markings are, very helpful with early selection. So is the hereford gene dominant?


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## NaomiR

yes we all thought it was but obviously it's not lol


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## ian

Well I'll have to play about with these guys to figure out whats going on for sure but the problem is either:

The hereford gene is recessive which means these young are carrying hereford
or
it is dominant but the hereford mother of the litter also only had one hereford parent and therefore only one hereford gene. I crossed her with a blue self so 50% of the babies born would not have inherited a hereford gene from either parent. So I should in theory have had a mixed litter of herefords and selfs but there are only 3 in the litter which means that the mother must have eaten the rest and (probably out of spite) removed every single hereford baby there was in her litter. Mice can be little buggers sometimes!


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## julieszoo

I will be watching the thread with interest


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## Mari

Any updates from the people that got ahold of a few of these girls and were giving it a go at breeding?? I'm really interested in what has come from it. Ian have you had any more? Anyone else have any littters yet?


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## ian

Unfortunately one of my does died while she was heavily pregnant, the other is not looking her best after her litter and hasn't regained her condition yet and its been ages since her babies were weaned. So as I have to reduce my numbers anyway I've decided to stop breeding the herefords until I can really commmit to it, its a shame because they are beautiful. Ive kept the remaining hereford in my retired tank.


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## Mari

Oh, I'm really sorry to hear that, Ian.  What a shame, as that seemed like such an interesting project. I was really curious as to whether or not these ended up _actually _being a dominant or a simple recessive gene or what... Hopefully you will run into some healthy, hardy, good specimens when the time is right and can give it another go.


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## Kage Davies

I put my doe in with a buck for a week and a half, and she never got pregnant. I think that's my buck though, as the rumpwhite with her didn't either.


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