# Our two little litters *Picture heavy!*



## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Tara and Rory's litter is a week now and Anya's litter is a week and a day. 
Pictures were taken really early this morning.

Tara and Rory's dark babies (black pied, probably tans) 

















Tara and Rory's *Edit: not a PEW. Pink eyed piebald something. Hum hum.*









Tara and Rory's bunch of cuteness 

















Anya's bunch of cuteness (not all of the 11 together, but 6/5)
5 pink eyed, 6 black eyed. Some of them are agouti, one is black. One is red-ish (fawn?), one has grey markings on bum but red-ish markings in face (it's pink eyed). *Can you tell what the pink eyed bright ones might be (in the pics with five)...?*


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

they are lovely,I particularly like the pink eyed ones.


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## kellyt (Nov 23, 2011)

Very lovely babies.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Your pink eyed ones might be argente, since you have agouti in the litter.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Thank you! They could be a bit chubbier, but they're doing very well. No runts (woop woop!) and they're eating well.

Yeah, I was thinking that too, but some of them look very grey and then we have the red-ish one. Hum..


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Indeed! Argente and dove, more than likely, given that you've got agouti and black. Argente are your yellowier one(s) and dove are your blue-greyer ones.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

What's the fawn-looking one then? >>

*Edit:* 'Cause she doesn't look ticked to me and she's so dark compared to the more obvious argente meeces. Do we have to wait a few more weeks to tell? Hum hum.


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## candycorn (Oct 31, 2011)

The little one with the patch over it's eye is the cuties we darling ever!


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

She could be much darker argente, she could be a recessive variety you're seeing pop up from under the agouti, like recessive yellow. It could also be undermarked brindle covered by the agouti. Is she pink-eyed or black-eyed, out of curiousity?


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

candycorn said:


> The little one with the patch over it's eye is the cuties we darling ever!


I know, she's such a cute little pirate 



Laigaie said:


> Is she pink-eyed or black-eyed, out of curiousity?


She's pink-eyed.


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## Ankali (Oct 2, 2011)

The facial markings are gorgeous!


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Thank you. 

Btw, apparently this is the mother of Anya (our agouti). What is she??: 








And I _think_ this is the father (the breeder said it's his fake brindle and that it's on his website; this is the only brindle looking little mouse I could find, so has to be him):









And apparently the father of Anya's litter is a chin.

Does that help anyone in helping me figure out the genetics of her little babies? ><


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

A/at B/* C/* D/* P/p s/s - Anya, as far as I know.

Anya's babies' father: A/at B/* cch/cch D/* P/p s/* or Aw/* B/* cch/cch D/* P/p s/s

We know that Anya got her p from her father (the fake brindle), seeing as she's P/p, and we know he's s/s. And the mum of Anya (a blue agouti, possibly??) is s/*, as Anya is s/s.

So we've got Anya's mum: P/* s/*

If she is blue agouti one of these should be correct:

A/A B/* C/* d/d P/* s/*
A/a B/* C/* d/d P/* s/*
A/A B/* C/* D/* ln/ln P/* s/*
A/a B/* C/* D/* ln/ln P/* s/*

Anya's dad is p/p s/s

but as I don't know what a "fake brindle" is as far as genetics go, I still don't know where the recessive yellow might have appeared. :?
A breeder I know from Sweden suggests Cinnamon something. She mentioned American Brindle...?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Hm. I recognize that tartan. American brindle is Avy, and that's what this buck looks like, but I think we've discussed him here before. If I remember correctly, the breeder was insistent that it cannot be Avy. A pink-eyed Avy brindle would, indeed look just like your little baby, and some of those agoutis could easily be overmarked brindle, if it were, however. Cinnamon is chocolate + agouti, if that helps.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm sure you have. The breeder says his line is a line he's bred for 1 year and that the mice in his line are sables, argente, orange and blue. Not really sure what that would mean and how you get a "fake brindle" through that, but yeah.



> A pink-eyed Avy brindle would, indeed look just like your little baby, and some of those agoutis could easily be overmarked brindle


Like our little red-ish one? Hm. Is there any way to tell whether they're agoutis or overmarked brindles?

Cinnamon isn't : 
A/A bc/* C/* D/* P/*, or
A/a bc/* C/* D/* P/* ?? 
(source: Finnmouse)


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

It totally is, and I have fixed where I said "yellow" and meant "brown/chocolate". I do remember discussing this mouse! I remember talking about agouti and orange and brindle, and how agouti and orange are sometimes different manifestations of brindle, but since this is the only brindley-looking mouse the line has thrown... *shrug* As far as telling the difference between overmarked brindle and agouti, I've not found one. My understanding of the way Avy brindle works is that the "stripes" are identical to agouti, so having all stripes and no orange just means you've got all agouti, looking just like agouti normally would. I suppose throwing the all-orange and orange-and-agouti-striped babies would be the way to know, though.

However, since the line does have orange mice in it, recessive yellow would definitely also be an option here.

Also-also, I'm kinda enamored of Anya's dam's face. It's so interesting. That said, I'm no good at identifying agouti variations, so I haven't the faintest about her coat. I'm just totally digging her facial structure. Though she doesn't look well (goopy eyes scare me), it's so very rat-like.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Hm. Genetics = difficult. >< Basically, I won't know what they are, at least not yet. And apparently one of the girls I thought was argente looks more champagne, according to a friend...? Do you reckon there's a variety I could breed Anya with, once the babies are weaned and she's had a bit of a rest, to tell what she is?

Anya's little mum looks evil, in a way. She also looks a bit skinny and scruffy, but I think she's a bit old. Hum hum. Anya is about four months now, I think.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

I know your breeder says that's a fake brindle, but it sure looks brindle to me. I'm not convinced he's not brindle!
I think your breeder somehow got ahold of the Avy gene.

Although it doesn't make sense that there are no brindles in the litter. . . Are you sure he's the father?


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Yeah but it's still odd that he's the only brindle looking one in the line. Hm. Well, unless mine are. Hm.
And yes, I'm sure he's the father


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

thats oldtymes mouse,that we've discussed lots of time and he tried to replicate without success which is a shame because it's a really nice mouse.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

What a very odd mouse!

Even if it wasn't replicated before, I'd bred back to him a few times, and see if anything pops up. 
It SO much looks like American brindle. . . .


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I've just looked back through the old discussions but sadly all the images are gone.


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Well poo.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Fair enough. Yeah and I think oldtyme might be right in that he isn't a brindle but if not, what is he? Just a curious colour and markings due to recessive yellow?


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## oldtyme (Nov 23, 2010)

SarahC said:


> I've just looked back through the old discussions but sadly all the images are gone.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

Yay, pics! Still think it might be the recessive yellow or something. What do you think?


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## Malene (Jun 8, 2010)

I don't think recessive yellow is available in the UK?


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

I thought it had made its way here by now?


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