# Feeling a bit despondent about lack of progress...



## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

After careful selection for the type traits I'm aiming to improve in my mice, I'm not seeing a lot of progress. I don't think I'm spreading the selection too thinly because I've been concentrating on eye and ear size, almost exclusively. Size, tail set and colour purity will come next. The reason for the order of priorities is that if I put size first, I'd end up with big mice that potentially would have tiny eyes and ears, which is something I don't find appealing.

Similarly, as far as colour goes, I'm happy with the basics we have even though most are mixed with various extraneous dilutes. As someone commented, first you have to build the house before you paint it!

Just when I think I've made some progress, and try to lock in a good trait by back crossing or sibling pairings, it seems that the good traits disappear. I know it's a long process - sort of distilling down the best genes and modifyers - and that the longer I persevere with strict selection, the more likely it is that I will increase the occurance of the mice I'm aiming for.

I'm just feeling a bit despondent, I suppose, because of the amazing mice that people on this forum have. It's _so_ far from the pet types we have here. (I know the UK and continental European breeders started with pet types too, but a century of selective breeding can't be replicated in a few years!)

Also, the mouse community here has been slowly shrinking to the point where there's only a handful of good breeders in the fancy, so it's not like there's a large group of similar minded people with which to share the good progress as well as the disappointments.

The only really good progress is with the long coat mice, and that's not challenging. It's easy to get good coat length with the gene we have here.

/whinge


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Oh, don't despair! This kind of progress takes an immense number of mice, and you'll get there in time!


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Stick with it! And keep lots of pictures to compare back to, it will remind you how far you've come. If all else fails, tape one to your hat and say it's "decorative."  Look at all this crazy! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/tsa-catches-woman-smuggli_n_941558.html


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm obviously a new kid but for what it's worth I think your mice are lovely! They're SUCH a far cry from the pet store mice we have in Canada. So if that's where you started, I certainly see progress! Even in your avatar, that mouse put every single mouse I've seen here to shame.  I really like reading these posts because although I can't relate yet (just figuring out what genes I have to play with) it's nice knowing what the process is really like.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

How many litters do you breed at a time?

If you're only breeding one or two, progress will necessarily be slower because you have fewer mice to choose from.

Remember that the current state of the best show mice in the US and UK has taken 150 years to reach.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Thanks for the encouragement. 

My breeding is smallish scale, which doesn't help, I know, but it's what I can manage. I always breed 2 litters at a time, and have a cycle going of a new pair of litters every 2 weeks or so, so there's a few mice going through.

I measure eye diameter in nanometers, and am SO picky about this trait!  Same with ears.

Frizzle, looking at old pics is a great idea. I've just dug up a few, and feel much better! There _is_ some progress. 
My first pet shop type mice from when I first started breeding well over 3 years ago:










I thought they were fantastic at the time. lol Now I can see what sad little examples they were - but I loved them! Looking at that pic does encourage me - my mice have come a long way since then. 

I'm going to pic out some recent pics, maybe even take some more, and I'll post them. If people say nice things about my current mice I'll feel MUCH better.  (Constructive less nice things are also welcome, btw!)

Seafolly, thanks for kind words, but though some of my mice are pretty, they're far from typey! :lol: Not even close! They're just fluffy.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

I do see the improvement!


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## Fraction (Aug 29, 2011)

Why not make a thread in the Breeding Plans subforum about your mice? You could take then/now photos and put them in there, then carry on taking photos as each generation reaches (for example) weaning, to compare how they're going? It'd be a neat project, and you'd be almost constantly reminded of how far you've come.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Jack Garcia said:


> I do see the improvement!




Some recent mice:





































Some have nice ears, others have nice eyes. It's hard getting it all together in one mouse.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Fraction said:


> Why not make a thread in the Breeding Plans subforum about your mice? You could take then/now photos and put them in there, then carry on taking photos as each generation reaches (for example) weaning, to compare how they're going? It'd be a neat project, and you'd be almost constantly reminded of how far you've come.


That's a good idea! 

I'm due to take some more pics, so when I do I'll start a thread. If post on the forum I'm more likely to keep it up than just taking pics for myself. I'm not an avid photographer.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Clearly I need to visit.  (actually not right now - I have 500 wedding photos to edit thus am hating the camera at this moment!)

The progress is rather plain to see to my eye! Now I understand why you like my sooty golden girl so much.  Also, fluffy is TOTALLY a standard in my books, haha. I need some fluff in my life.


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## Cordane (May 22, 2012)

Mojo, your mice are stunning and I can only ever hope to achieve what you have in that length of time.


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## Gracegarden (May 30, 2012)

Mojo - I know nothing about mice and I can see a huge difference!


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

You are doing a very good job Mojomouse; that's a lot of improvement in three years especially considering you have no typey mice in Australia to use as an outcross! Keep at it


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## Wight Isle Stud (May 19, 2010)

your doing well Mojo !. You can speed up a Bit by forming a separate line from a common source (your existing mice ) In one line concentrate heavily on ears, the other line tails, (don't forget ears are nice big but still need to be as crease free as possible, tails long but still need to be meaty and well set at the tail root.) Then one day you can bring the two lines together, and hopefully get some more pieces of the perfect mouse jigsaw on one animal. There are hundreds of benefits of doing it this way- you wont get caught in the fixed trait trap, you will have your own outcross to use. When you bring these two lines together , you can then split off a few of the biggest mice and form a size line. You can of course go for whatever feature you so wish. In a small stud, beware of concentrating on just eyes, in the process you could easily "fix" poor tails etc.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Thanks for all the comments. 

Wight Isle, what you're saying makes perfect sense. I've had conformation (eyes and ears) in one line, and it's been problematic. Sometimes I've let a good example of one trait (say, really good ears) go because the mouse has only had average eyes. And vice versa. I'm quite excited about your suggestion because I can see how it could work, and speed up the process... or rather, avoid the way I've been slowing it down. Unfortunately I suspect I may have fixed piddly tails to some extent, but I've just had a look through my younger mice and can see a couple that are not too bad. I'll definitely single them out as well.

It also make sense that when these traits are acceptable would be the time to start bringing the lines together. Selecting for size as well at this stage would be manageable, even with a separate line for it.

Thank you so much for your practical input! That's the voice of experience.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

mojo, i think the improvement in the traits you have been working on is remarkable. the eyes on your mice, in particular, are amazing. i find it interesting that you mention measuring eye size. how do you do that?

are you familiar with jan bonsma? he would no doubt approve of your breeding methods, and look down his nose on those of us with less exacting methods. i don't know if i'll be motivated to measure every neonate in my colony, but seeing the progress in your mice at least serves to remind how effective a rigorous, methodical approach can be.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Umm, seeing that a nanometer is a billionth of a metre, I was exaggerating just a tad...  What I meant was that I compare the eye size between the littermates from day 4 onwards, trying to see a correlation between the form and shape of the eye and eventual size. Some eye "buds" on pinkies and fuzzies look like they're going to be big or small eyes, but don't necessarily end up that way. I've noticed that the shape (elongated) rather than the overall size, is a better indicator. Eyes are my prime obsession - though I have no idea why this trait is so important in the way I assess a mouse's appearance.

Jan Bonsma... I had never heard of him, but immediately googled him. What an amazingly precise and methodological man! His lifes work was a combination of selective breeding and epigenetics. Thanks for mentioning his name - his story is a fascinating read.

One of the things I've been trying to find out more about is the relationship between cranial shape (including eye socket size) and some dilutes, specifically c(e). I've sussed out that there is an association between melanocytes and other traits such as skull shape (as well as some neural characteristics), which comes about from the original development process of the neural crest cells. The more I read, the more I understand, but it's a slow process as I have no scientific background. A lot of the research is too detailed and advanced for me, other material is too basic and not helpful. But, it's interesting.

I like trying to understand the biomechanics of correlations/relationships that I notice happening more often than can be accounted for by chance.

Unfortunately, all the reading in the world is not helping speed the process of getting show mice out of pet mice! :lol: I wish!


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

oh I see it alright. I think you were too close xD



> Some eye "buds" on pinkies and fuzzies look like they're going to be big or small eyes, but don't necessarily end up that way. I've noticed that the shape (elongated) rather than the overall size, is a better indicator. Eyes are my prime obsession - though I have no idea why this trait is so important in the way I assess a mouse's appearance.


that is the art part in 'breeding is just as much art as science."


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

There has been quite an amazing difference in your mice! I've been breeding for three years and I haven't gotten that good yet! I'm glad you posted to get all the encouragement here, and so you can realize how far you really have gone!


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Autumn2005 said:


> ... I'm glad you posted to get all the encouragement here, and so you can realize how far you really have gone!


Thank you!

I'm glad I posted as well. I would never have gone back and dug out the early pics if it hadn't been suggested. Comparing them made it clear that there was progress. And - it's lovely that people have noticed and been encouraging.  I think it's pretty normal to be reassured, and pleased, by other people's positive reactions. There are times when we all need a bit of positive feedback.

It's easier on a forum like this to post about successes. It's harder to post when you're feeling that things aren't so good. They're the things you feel less inclined to share. But sharing helps because you get concrete suggestions for how to improve.


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