# Starting From Scratch



## HtrKid (Apr 4, 2010)

I used to breed mice a long time ago and want to start getting back into it again. How long do you think it would take for me to breed petshop mice so they have good shape like show mice? Its too expensive for me to get mice shipped to me so i was thinking about trying this. What do ya think?


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## Elven (Apr 18, 2010)

It all depends what you find from petshops. Will you get colours you want, or just get whatever is on sale and work from that. Sometimes there can be real finds in petshops, usually just basic pet-type.


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## jessilynn (Jul 9, 2010)

I would say 10 years... I know someone who took a line and made it to show type in 5 years, but she had show mice to mix it with.


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## Loganberry (Oct 24, 2008)

Try 100 years! But that's to reach the quality of show mice shown under the NMC in the UK.


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2009)

Loganberry said:


> Try 100 years! But that's to reach the quality of show mice shown under the NMC in the UK.


and during this time the existing show mice develop further on, so you still will be many steps behind.


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## thekylie (Mar 6, 2010)

You are in a hard situation in MT. NO ONE it seems breeds in that part of the country. There are a decent number of breeders in CA, but that's still a couple days drive.

It takes several years to get mice from pet stock to show stock. And well... think of it this way. Even if you start with only pet shop animals, the number of animals you have to have on hand would be huge to try to reach your goal, and the cost of keeping them increases with every litter. I know shipping is expensive, but in my opinion, not getting mice immediately and saving the money for shipping would be worth it if you truly want to breed show type. Shipping would probably cost somewhere around $200-300, and you could easily spend that in a year on food/supplies for a large colony. Or get a couple from a pet shop and just kind of play around with them, but keep your numbers small, and just make sure it's really worth it to you and that you won't lose interest in it after a huge input of money.

You could also plan to drive to a breeder in CA (they do have some awesome breeders in that state!). It might mean the cost of gas + hotel for a night or two and a looooong weekend, but it would be worth it and have the advantage of being a trip in addition to getting mice.

The US fancy is difficult because everything is so spread out. Most people have to put a lot of money into travel and shipping to get mice cross-country. It sucks, but it is worth it.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

thekylie said:


> It takes several years to get mice from pet stock to show stock.


No, it takes at least a hundred years and like those folks said above meanwhile show mice will be proceeding even further so you're still behind. It it only took a few years or only a few decades, it would have been done already.

Think about creating a poodle or a Yorkshire terrier out of wolves. It's the same thing. You'd be starting with inferior stock and moving slowly. It takes a long time and a lot of work and you wouldn't do it in your lifetime.

Your best bet is to choose to invest in going to California or importing some show stock from other places.


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## thekylie (Mar 6, 2010)

Maybe I shouldn't have said show stock. I probably should have said until you see any decent changes in type. You could generally improve on a mouse over several years of work. You couldn't create a show mouse, but you could have some impact on how they look.

And the average "from a breeder" mouse in the US doesn't touch yours or Jenny's, or anyone's in the UK. I know most I see on forums certainly don't. Besides, if you're not planning on showing, and are just breeding better typed mice for your enjoyment, they don't have to live up to quite the same standard as a true show mouse. If you DO want to compete, spend the money on shipping some awesome mice and save yourself a lot of time and frustration. Either way, I still see starting from pet store mice to improve type as a bad way to go. If you just want something "cute" pet stores work. Although after having my broad-faced babies I really don't find snippy little pet store mouse faces as lovable anymore. I know of a few people who breed for color or a coat type that don't care about type so they use pet store stock.

And I won't give you wolf to poodle in 100 years. I'd give you wolf to German shepherd though. Maybe if the mouse fancy continues for the next 1000 years we can have as many mice breeds as there are dog breeds lol. I for one don't look forward to the day when I have to bring my Mouse-tzu to the groomer every 6 weeks for a trim!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Unfortunately you're right that most American breeders do very poor jobs with breeding mice. You see people labeling their animals as "show quality" when they're just inconsistent mongrels who vary wildly from very poor to very good examples of what they're supposed to be and sometimes even in the same litter. I'm not saying my animals are all perfect--they're not--but I don't give drastically substandard animals away to other people to breed and tell them they're "show mice." This is bad practice, if you ask me and it makes people think they're working with quality animals when they're not. I think in the whole US there are fewer than eight or ten breeders who keep their lines pure and breed them properly and keep their mice up fitting to their particular varieties.



thekylie said:


> And I won't give you wolf to poodle in 100 years. I'd give you wolf to German shepherd though.


I don't know... The GSD is more than just a tame wolf. It has had a lot of changes that affect things we don't see like the brain, and it has taken a lot longer than 100 years to get to where the breed is now. I'm not a dog person, but I am reminded of the silver fox project. They've tried the same thing for the past 60 years with silver foxes, and have been only partly successful.


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## Matt Haslam (Mar 13, 2010)

its not worth trying to start with whatever you can get hold of. Make the effort, buy the best stock possible in the country you live.

easy for me to say living in the UK.


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## HtrKid (Apr 4, 2010)

I guess its time to start saving my money.lol Its hard to save up that much when your a poor teenager without a job.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Good luck.


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## thekylie (Mar 6, 2010)

I started wanting to breed mice when I was 13, and wasn't able to own more than 1 at a time until I was 19, and I'm 23 now and doing a bit of breeding, but it will still be a few years until I can afford to import the mice I want to lol. A lot of mice owning is waiting. Anyone who breeds can attest to the fact 3 weeks feels like 3 months. 

And I know about the wolves/shepherds/poodles Jack lol. I was just being a butthead. I was going to say a husky but that was a little too close to a wolf. And those foxes are awesome. You can buy one for $2500 apparently... but somehow I don't think a fox is on my approved species list for my apartment!


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

i wish you luck i have just started and for like 4 months any buck i would buy from a normal petstorre wouldnt budge on a female i finally bought a buck from a breeder and just kept the petshop does to use for breeding


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