# Saff's making me wait..



## Cordane

On the 13th of January, a friend came to pick up two of my mice, (sisters Opal and Sapphire) to go on a play date with her self black buck. In making the pairing, I wasn't thinking about improving type what-so-ever. The main reason for the pairings was to produce a self black - I have always wanted a self black mouse to call my own and after looking in the pet shop for over 3 years.. no self blacks in sight, not even black tans or black foxes..

Now in saying that, sadly, the buck passed away later in January. My friend went to check on the three of them after hearing a lot of squeaking and found her boy laying on the cage floor with a bite to his throat area.. I believe Opal was the one who did this as she is the one who isn't pregnant..

So here's Saff in all her pregnant glory - not that she is very big..
at/a B/* (both her Mum and Dad carry chocolate) C/* (either cch or ch) s/s P/p









And here is the buck she was put to - JD. The picture was taken many months ago when he was just weaned.
a/a B/* c/* (His father was a piebald burmese) S/s P/*









Anyone want to have a go at guessing how far away she is and how many bubs?
I will, of course, keep everyone posted


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## Seafolly

Wow, so breeding a self mouse (son) back to Saff wouldn't create any black selfs? Given the dominance I would have assumed it'd be easy but I haven't dealt with black mice yet. Wish I could send you some - saw a bunch of black selfs last night in the feeder bin.


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## Cordane

Going with the punnet squares there is about 3/8 chance of them producing a self black.
This pairing alone could potentially produce a self black though yes, if I breed a self anything back to Saff, would be another way to produce a self black if I don't get one this time around. 
All 3 of my current bucks (one is retired) are all piebald so there was no hope there but of course, another option is to breed either my siamese or burmese to my pied black buck when he is old enough.

You would assume it would be easy but with only one pet shop having mice and their breeders being either diluted or spotted, producing a self black is not an easy process apparently..


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## Seafolly

It's funny how I've been trying to get pied back in my line and you're doing the opposite.  Self is more common here, at least in feeder bins. But pied has been seen among the "pet mice." I just bought a pied buck this weekend trying to get a few marked babies for the sake of variation but I do see the appeal of self. You're making me wonder if I should have grabbed a black self, haha. They were pretty cute.


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## Cordane

I'm actually sick of seeing pied mice.. With all my bucks being pied and all my girls being either pied or carrying it.. Well they pop up left, right and centre!
Come to think of it, I assume the most common for you guys overseas in pet shops are agouti, blacks and pew/albino right? I haven't seen an agouti in the pet store for 3 years, I have seen 1 PEW who I purchased but he turned out to be insanely hoppy and would bite and draw blood any chance he got and no self blacks.. even the pied blacks aren't common..


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## DaisyTailsMousery

Hmm.. Funny. I bred my self black buck to a pied doe to try and get pieds. I am sick of selves and I've had so many black selves pop up in my litters without trying to breed for them


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## Seafolly

Cordane said:


> Come to think of it, I assume the most common for you guys overseas in pet shops are agouti, blacks and pew/albino right? I haven't seen an agouti in the pet store for 3 years, I have seen 1 PEW who I purchased but he turned out to be insanely hoppy and would bite and draw blood any chance he got and no self blacks.. even the pied blacks aren't common..


I think it varies between Canada and the States. I've never seen a brindle, for example, and I know it at least was common down there.

PEW, black, RY, argente, and beige seem to dominate in my area of Toronto. I bred some blues though which were the first I've seen in person which is interesting. And oddly enough I don't often see agouti. Even in the feeder tanks I only saw one. Also, long hair is increasingly common. I didn't want a long hair buck but that's what I got. :/


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## DaisyTailsMousery

Seafolly said:


> Cordane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Come to think of it, I assume the most common for you guys overseas in pet shops are agouti, blacks and pew/albino right? I haven't seen an agouti in the pet store for 3 years, I have seen 1 PEW who I purchased but he turned out to be insanely hoppy and would bite and draw blood any chance he got and no self blacks.. even the pied blacks aren't common..
> 
> 
> 
> I think it varies between Canada and the States. I've never seen a brindle, for example, and I know it at least was common down there.
> 
> PEW, black, RY, argente, and beige seem to dominate in my area of Toronto. I bred some blues though which were the first I've seen in person which is interesting. And oddly enough I don't often see agouti. Even in the feeder tanks I only saw one. Also, long hair is increasingly common. I didn't want a long hair buck but that's what I got. :/
Click to expand...

I have never seen a long hair or a satin. it seems agouti and black are EVERYWHERE along with PEWs. To be honest, those are the only types I've ever seen before I started breeding and found the pink eye dilutes. pied and selves are all we have around here. If you want to buy a new male you have to get lucky at the feeder bin where there are 100+ PEWs and you have no clue what their genetics are.


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## Cordane

Oh I would kill for half of what you guys have available! We don't have satin in NZ, nor do we have RY (apparently), beige, reds, brindles, blues and thats just the beginning of the list..


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## Seafolly

Yeah the feeder bins here seem like 80% argente and PEW. I got very, very lucky finding the mice I did. My newest doe (posted in New Mice) looked very strange in that bin. But, like you say, the genetics are unknown so I'll be pretty nervous breeding each of them.

That said, if you go an hour west of the city, you find mock chocolate and variegated. It takes exploration I think. I don't think we have brindle or red though. Among many other cool things.


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## GibblyGiblets

The most common in my neck of the woods as far as petstore mice go is PEW..don't get me wrong, PEW babies = adorable, but I don't like having them in my lines, too plain obviously.

every once in a while one of the petstores here will get some colored mice in, one store which of course pulled the colored ones out, jacks up their price by about 3$ and sells them as "pet" mice.

The other store I have a pretty good relationship with the people there, having been going there since I was a wee one, they usually trade with me if I take anything in or just give me mice that I might want if I don't have anything. they've recently started breeding their own feeders again and have used some of the babies I've taken in as replacement breeders for the older mice they've got.

surprisingly I have never ever seen an agouti mouse around here :shock: I would love a pied or banded agouti (the only reason I'd add agouti to my line) but I've never seen one.

I suppose if all you ever saw were pied or broken mice you'd get sick of them, I was starting to get sick of my chocolates since that's ALL I seem to have right now :roll:

I got really lucky when I found my varigated buck, and ofcourse I have never seen another besides what I produce lol


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## Cordane

And we have baby eepers!!


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## MojoMouse

Congrats! That's a good sized litter, without being too big.


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## DaisyTailsMousery

I hope you get yourself a self black! I'd give you all mine if I could


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## andypandy29us

what cute chubbie little babies


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## Sizzlea89

Aww congrats on the litter!


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## Cordane

Well I sexed them yesterday but confirmed today - 6 girlies, 3 boys! 
Saff, for a first time Mum is doing great! I barely see her coming out of the nest so when I take the babies out for handling and weight checks she goes and stuff her face haha.

rematnogard: Thank you! Shame I don't live MUCH closer huh?


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I hope you get a black self! Will you be culling the litter down (just general wondering)?


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## Cordane

TwitchingWhiskers: Yes, I will be. While there are two bubs who are slightly smaller than the rest (2 grains or so), they will remain until I can tell if they are spotted or not. Ideally I would like to get down to 4-5.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Ah, I see.


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## Cordane

So I'm one very unhappy mousey owner right now.. 
Despite the bubs only being 2 full days old, pigment is showing (mostly) and guess what? No self meecers! Just my luck.. Grrrrr! There is one who isn't show any pigment and I'm seriously confused as to what that one may be but that is besides the point.


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## Seafolly

Could it be chocolate? A light/mock shade? The only pigment I could see at Day 2 if I looked really closely were my blues.


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## Cordane

Light Mock is a possibility, Saff carries either cch or ch and the Dad carries either cch or ch as well. Saff also possibly carries chocolate. 
Well I know they aren't blue.. We don't have the gene here in NZ


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## Cordane

And I was right.. All spotted. Oddly enough, I'm not complaining just a little disappointed that not a single one was a solid colour. In saying that, I have culled down to 5 (4 girls and 1 boy), keeping the lightest coloured boy and the most heavily marked females.








So far, my favourite is the lone mousie facing the wrong way. The boy is the one next to her


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## Cordane

Final head count for Saffs litter : 1 boy and 3 girls


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## kyrabbit

Golly they are adorable!
I wish you were closer, I get self blacks like they're going out of style. There is an abundance of them here.


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## Cordane

kyrabbit said:


> Golly they are adorable!
> I wish you were closer, I get self blacks like they're going out of style. There is an abundance of them here.


Sadly, if I lived any closer, I doubt I would actually want self blacks. I would be way to caught up in getting blues, satins, reds, brindles, rexes/texels.. the list goes on!

In saying that - Picture update! The boy I wasn't sure about is chocolate! Not sure what kind of chocolate and come to think of it, he could be burmese..
The buck :








The girl I'm keeping (She will just be a pet to keep Ava company. She isn't 100% and is on and off sick but it's not contagious apparently).








The fatty (she is continually 10 grains larger than the rest - about .6g bigger)








And the heavily marked girly.









And the group!


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## blackbirdmice

I seriously love the one with the colored rump and perfect spot.


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## andypandy29us

they are all beautiful


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## Sizzlea89

I want them haha


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## GibblyGiblets

they are all really pretty.

I had a baby once that looked exactly like the one with the colored rump, had the same spot in the same place and everything xD


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## Veritai

They must be fuzzier now ... moar pics please?


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## Sizzlea89

Oh yes please more pictures


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## Cordane

As.. requested? Some more random pictures for you all 

The girl I'm going to keep :























The buck of the litter :























The heavily coloured girl :
















And the perfect spot girl :























And two sleepy pictures :


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## Sizzlea89

Gorgeous!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I love them at that age!


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## Veritai

They are SO cute asleep ... and awake... and in that pose that looks like a just failed face washing attempt ...


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## angelofwhimsy

So pretty and adorable, omgosh..!


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## andypandy29us

awww you take such awsome pics


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Veritai said:


> They are SO cute asleep ... and awake... and in that pose that looks like a just failed face washing attempt ...


I love it when they try to groom themselves with both hands, but fail to balance on their feet, and fall over. Babies :love1


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## Sizzlea89

Haha aww it is really funny when they do that!


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## Cordane

Babies eyes opened today so guess what?? Photoshoot!
Colours are a little out of wack though as I used artificial lighting and the new editing software goes OTT with the auto contrast and auto colour.

The perfect spot :






























The gorgeous choc tan boy :






























The least white :






























The keeper :


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## Seafolly

Aw I really love that tan boy. Is he a tri colour? Not something I'd see in Canada!


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## Cordane

Nope, not a tri-colour - we don't have the genes to make a tri-colour which just annoys me. Pied something tans are as close as I get.

He's just a pied chocolate tan.


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## Seafolly

Cordane said:


> He's just a pied chocolate tan.


I think he's stunning.  Not bad for a place with no tri's! I haven't even seen tan here (though I hear it exists...)


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## Cordane

You don't? Really?
Most of our tans are so poor they look almost like pee stained foxes! I won't be keeping him though even if he is really gorgeous!


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## Seafolly

I've heard of a tan near the US border but I've never seen a tan here in Toronto which is a fairly major city of Canada. And I've been looking in mouse bins for a decade, haha. Variegated and such used to exist but I rarely see it now. Overall it's quite bland! So I'm just shooting for BEW and lovely RY's while incrementally improving type. BEW is quite possibly in the March litter. ^^


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Cuties :ange


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## Veritai

... Too many chubby kangaroo poses  And both the keeper and the least white (is that also the most marked?) are to die for!

They are adorabubs.


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## Runaway Mousery

Really adorable Cordane! Nice photos =)


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I really love the 4th picture, it's nice when mice seemingly pose for you!


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## Sizzlea89

Haha they do don't they! Posers


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## Cordane

Seafolly said:


> I've heard of a tan near the US border but I've never seen a tan here in Toronto which is a fairly major city of Canada. And I've been looking in mouse bins for a decade, haha. Variegated and such used to exist but I rarely see it now. Overall it's quite bland! So I'm just shooting for BEW and lovely RY's while incrementally improving type. BEW is quite possibly in the March litter. ^^


Wow really? Tans (well the poor tans) and foxes were pretty common for a while and then the pet shop here just stopped breeding mice and that was pretty much the end of seeing them. I wouldn't mind having a choc tan line as I side project one day and might keep a few from Saffs next litter.
Oh I would LOVE a variegated... And a BEW and a RY even if it was insanely sooty but I believe we lost the RY gene (I seem to be the only one who believes we had it though).
Why is it that the varieties I'd love to have, we don't have? Grrrr



Veritai said:


> ... Too many chubby kangaroo poses  And both the keeper and the least white (is that also the most marked?) are to die for!
> 
> They are adorabubs.


The least white girl is the most marked, yep. If you ignore the belly colour, the closest thing she looks like in rats is a hooded but the opposite colours.  she is a very pretty little girl though but of course, my preference is for the keeper (well duh).



Runaway Mousery said:


> Really adorable Cordane! Nice photos =)


Thank you! I just need to figure out a better lighting system (currently using a tiny terrible desk lamp). Sometimes I'm amazed at what my cheap point and shoot camera can do but oh how I wish it had that macro/micro setting..



TwitchingWhiskers said:


> I really love the 4th picture, it's nice when mice seemingly pose for you!





Sizzlea89 said:


> Haha they do don't they! Posers


I couldn't believe a few of the poses I got! The ones that have the mouse off to one side or corner (there are 2-3) I've been thinking about using for a business card of sorts. I regularly attend a rabbit and cavy pet show and some of the committee members keep saying I need to make a card as people often ask about the mice.

Thank you though, for the compliments  I'm really happy with some of the pictures


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Ugh, I'm making a card too, and I'm too picky with how I want it to look :lol:


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## Cordane

Glad I'm not the only one! I'm fussy as all heck, simple but effective and in no way boring. I just thought Basic info and a picture somewhere but I would also love to have a logo..
Eugh, how I wish I was creative!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I've never thought about having a logo, hmm. Good luck with your card!


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## Cordane

Thank you!
I printed out a simple one earlier which I'm oddly happy with so that will work for now


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Nice


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## ThatCertainGlow

I am repeatedly amazed at the adorable pictures you are able to get. Especially of a stage where I'm only making ear, body, tail decisions, and not thinking "oh cute mouse". LOL If you do make up cards with one of these, be sure to post that too? 

-Zanne


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## Sizzlea89

They really are gorgeous! I hope once I get my new buck from England that I have some nice blue pied to go with my banded collection


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## Cordane

Zanne, will do  later this afternoon though when I get back from town - apparently I need a haircut (my mum said this and she seems to live off change and I haven't changed my hair in years).
It's very simple though, I'm not an overly creative person so it's just the usual Mousery name, my name, phone number, email address and website. That's about it..

Sizzlea, oh how I would LOVE a blue. Actually I would love a lot of colours but I won't be getting anything exciting unless I move to a new country.
You will have to do a photo shoot with him once you get him! "Doll" him up and make him look oh so very handsome  not that he isn't already.


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## Sizzlea89

Haha i will do  I can't wait to get him! It seems to be taking forever


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## Cordane

See, nothing exciting :


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## ThatCertainGlow

Awww! That is the picture I was guessing you might use too.  I hope it does good things for your mice, and yourself.


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## Cordane

Originally I was going to use the one with the bub facing directly towards the camera but it left to much empty space..
It looks much better actually printed out - I ended up using photo paper and it came out lovely!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Love it! I made a simple one similar to that, and also ones with crazy photo edits :lol:

I visited your website as well, looks fab!


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## Cordane

You like it? Oh good! It's nothing fancy but it's usuable and easy to navigate which is all I really wanted. I've still got to do the Mousey Care page which I'm just being a little to lazy to do and then the home page which I'm not sure what to put there..

Update on the bubs :
They haven't decided to come out of the nest by themselves yet but that's ok. No doubt, Mum will start to drag them out of the nest in the next few days! They were put into a new cage today full of toys which I have found helps the bubs to be a bit more out-going and curious. 
My little keeper girl has given me a reason to worry, she has been keeping one of her eyes closed and there was a little bit of crusty stuff near the eye.. After giving it a good wipe down yesterday, she has her eye opened today so I'm happy!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

My website's home page is full of cute pictures and 'read more' links. Your's is cute, I love those origami flowers with baby mice inside! Although, I know some people like to put short and to the point descriptions on the home page.

Sometimes I have babies with those eye crusty's, around the time they open their eyes (12 days old, usually). If it lasts too long, then I usually have reason for concern.


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## Cordane

I've yet to have any bubs with crusty eyes except her which was the reason for my concern, she is doing much better today though and her eye is just as open as the other - she is a real cuddle muchkin already!

Just looked at your website (turns out I was also looking at it last night too) and I see what you mean with the read more links which I did think about doing at one point but I just need to figure out how to do that on weebly.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Good to hear she's doing well.


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## Cordane

The fluffies moosies are due to be weaned (well the buck is) on Wednesday. Oh the joy - I really must take pictures of him though today, I got a few snaps of the darling girls who are seriously photogenic! They're adorable


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## Cordane

And a picture of the little guy!


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## TwitchingWhiskers

I love the look of your mice's whiskers Cordane. Well, I think most little animal whiskers are so cute (hence my mousery name, lol) :love1 Anyway, I love your mice; I need to get myself some LH.


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## MojoMouse

They really are little sweeties! :love1


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## Seafolly




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## MojoMouse

Haha, yep! They really do have lovely coats. The mouse in the first pic looks like she's got black, grey and white patches - unusual. Are the grey bits mingled hairs, or is it the light/shadow making it look that way?


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## Cordane

Just the lighting really. She has some very thin white patches which tend to mingle with the black patches but the lighting is just emphasising it. Her belly is gray though. Sorry to disappoint  
TwitchingWhiskers - I adore animal whiskers. Especially bunnies with their twitching noses as well!
Seafolly - I love that show! and thank you!
Mojo - you think they have nice coats? Awwww thank you! I wish they only stayed like that.


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## andypandy29us

They are all beautiful


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## ThatCertainGlow

You do take the best pictures of mice babies! Totally cute. Love the coats. I think it is supposed to take a few generations of going after it, before the long coats start to stick around... longer.


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## TwitchingWhiskers

Cordane said:


> TwitchingWhiskers - I adore animal whiskers. Especially bunnies with their twitching noses as well!


That is one of my favorite things about bunnies!!


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## Cordane

:lol:


andypandy29us said:


> They are all beautiful


Awww Andy, thank you! And to think.. at 7 days old, I was so dissapointed with this litter.


ThatCertainGlow said:


> You do take the best pictures of mice babies! Totally cute. Love the coats. I think it is supposed to take a few generations of going after it, before the long coats start to stick around... longer.


It's all the mice, not me! This litter however has been fantastic.. Unlike the usual 50+ pictures just to get one good picture, it was maybe 15 pictures! Ah I love photogenic mice! 


TwitchingWhiskers said:


> Cordane said:
> 
> 
> 
> TwitchingWhiskers - I adore animal whiskers. Especially bunnies with their twitching noses as well!
> 
> 
> 
> That is one of my favorite things about bunnies!!
Click to expand...

I agree with you! Lovely twitching noses, just so seriously cute!
Rabbit noses and guinea pig noises


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## fancyteddy1

Gosh that buck really turned out stunning! They're all beautiful  I'm dieing for a marked chocolate tan.. I saw one at a pet store ONCE, I didnt get her, and I've been kicking myself ever since!


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## Cordane

Oh if only you lived closer. It can be payback since you have a brindle and I don't


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