# Do you see a female? (link included in first post for photos



## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Of the eight, I think it was an even division.

Removing the runt, I'd be left with three black eyed females unless any of the photos you see here look female to you (I didn't photograph the genitals of the ones I picked as girls).

Any heads up you could give me would be great! I do not want to cull more than I have to...and I kind of hoped for more than 3. : P I'll wait until tonight to actually do it but here were my picks. There are three red eyed and one black eyed, mixed up to be sure.

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y230/pynbahl/Mice/

(please tell me if the link doesn't work!)

Can I take a chance on the runt if there are only three other females? : /


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Poor little runt! It's a tiny little thing. It would probably do fine in a reduced litter, but would never be breeding stock.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Yeah, definitely not breeding stock. I posted a shot of her last night with two tail kinks and it's actually straightening out and it's only been 12 hours. Interesting! I had pulled her out as a definite cull, had her sitting on my chest while I typed out this post, and slid her back into the nest thinking, "Wait a minute, the other females won't care if there are only four in total!" I mean, I'll cull her if people still think it's the best route, but it'll only sit well with me if it benefits someone (the mother or the siblings or whatever).


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Seafolly said:


> I had pulled her out as a definite cull, had her sitting on my chest while I typed out this post, and slid her back into the nest ...


Aww.  Maybe she could have a little bit of nice life - even if you decide to cull her later... 
Also, it would be interesting to know what's going on with the tail - good for future reference... aaand it's not good for the mum to have too few babies too suddenly... 4 is a good number... (she doesn't eat much, and doesn't take up much room)...


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Well that's the snag, haha. After Day 4 (or whenever I can no longer use the freezer) I don't think I could cull. CD and all that sounds very effective but I can just see myself screwing up and I'd hate myself if I caused an animal to have a really delayed death due to my clumsiness or hesitation. So I'm looking at tonight as The Cull.  Poor lil tyke. I like the number four. 

I wondered about that!! The sudden reduction! I didn't know if it would cause Tully to freak out. She's been so good, especially considering how skittish she typically is. I'd be worried about pushing too far.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Yeah, I do think 4 is a good number.  Well, it's 3 1/2 really - the little one doesn't really count as a whole mouse, really, does she. I bet she'd be so quiet and well behaved - the others wouldn't even know she'd been snuck back into the nest. 

I take your point about culling when they're older, though. But, being practical, it does seem to be an essential skill for a good breeder to have. I can see times when you'd have to put the mouse before your own feelings - if one was sick with no chance of recovery that's the best thing for the poor mouse.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Oh that part's okay! I have a retired veterinarian for a father so if a mouse of mine were sick, I can think of a few clinics that wouldn't mind euthanizing for free. But if I presented a perfectly healthy mouse that'd be another story.

Haha, yes, I tried my best to roll her quietly in and Tully snatched her up making the baby squeak quite loudly. Fretting I just did her in, I immediately looked under the tank and fortunately she was shoved in among the others underneath her belly. <3 WHEW.


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## m137b (Sep 22, 2010)

I see nothing but bucks in the pics. I'd worry that the runt will get quickly beaten out for food with 3 larger male siblings.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Whew! I really, really appreciate your input! My aim is to cull all bucks, so she theoretically would just be with her three sisters. But, thinking that over, I best keep my numbers down if I'd like to breed again in their parents' lifetimes.

Would it be risky to reduce from 8 to 3 at once?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

I also see only bucks, good job sexing 

Now, I really hate to be the one to say this, but that runt is better off going. If you were comfortable culling any older then you could give her a chance. As it is, if she lives another week or so, she will more than likely be very sickly and weak. Can you deal with this when she is walking around with newly opened eyes and looking extra cute?

Reducing to three or four from any number never causes problems, I do it every litter


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

ive never had problems reducing to low numbers, ive gone from 9-7 to 2-3 many times, all were fed very well and became right porkers lol, but i have hurd some people saying something about mothers producing less milk with only 1 or 2 babies but mine have all beed well fed.

With the runt if it was mine id cull as she would mostlikley allways be weaker and there for get sicker easyer and get pushed out ect. But if you have a way to puther down if she did get sick its up to you if you want to keep her.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Three votes, all in favour, done!

Now for the hardest part.

Thank you everyone! Putting down the runt will be difficult but since I want to keep my numbers down (thinking ahead to the next litter down the road) I might as well ensure everyone's got a healthy start. The stupid thing is that will be harder to do than the healthy beastly boys. I guess because I reconsidered. Doh. >< Time to pour myself some Pimm's.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

You'll be fine xxx


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

You can get attached realy quickly but i find the longer you put it off and think about it the harder it is.
When I first started breeding i had a litter that at first looked normal but as they grew it was obviously something wasnt right as they all looked wrong but i felt sorry for them and at that time i had never culled anything befor so let them live, they all carryed on untill they hit 6weeks and sadly 3 out of 4 died in my hands the 4th died in the night. It was that that made me want to lurn to cull as i could only watch as they slipped away as i didnt know what to do. Now runty ones go asap.

You have earned your self a drink lol


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## Gill (Sep 16, 2011)

The first time I culled a litter I left it until the last possible moment (and then poured myself a stiff drink). And, like Joanne, I have left one that I felt sorry for, only to discover later that it was deformed. So I know how you feel.

I hope you manage it ok, and that the remaining pinkies grow big and fat.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Oh man, guys, that was hard. 

I used the method that I found on various veterinary based articles - the inducing hypothermia by placing them in the fingers of latex gloves and placing them in ice water for 10 minutes or so before putting in the freezer. Apparently pinkies float (again they were NOT drowning) so I could only do one at a time to hold their bodies down and not let the water tip into the finger of the glove. I did it in order of necessity, the runt going first. It wasn't until the first three were in the freezer that the fourth squawked in a painfully adorable way when the glove entered the water that my heart shattered. It unnerved me enough to take about half an hour to decide to continue culling the last two. That was brutal. I was so freaking close to keeping that last buck. The runt ended up being the easiest. But the healthy boys? Ow my heart.  I'm not religious but I feel like I need to run to a church and confess or something!


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

You did a good thing, even if it doesn't feel like it. Take a deep breath, go do something cheerful, and we'll see you tomorrow.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

You did the right thing with the runt. It's a bit sad, but the others (and you) were right about it being harder if you had time to get attached.  (Sorry for trying to talk you out of it. I was just hoping she had a chance, which is just silly. I shouldn't have posted in this thread.)

Now you have 3 healthy females with the best chance for good health! I'm looking forward to hearing how they develop!


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks you guys. <3 The runt felt like the right thing. The boys didn't really. Especially when there were only the two left. I kept thinking, "I could rehome these easily, they're satin!" And then talked myself out of it. It's one less thing to worry about right now, as I'd be quite happy keeping those three girls and not thinking about homes that won't put on a fake show of care and then neglect them later.

Mojo, please please please don't be sorry! I would have chanced it if my circumstances were different (overshare: I have a severe anxiety disorder which makes getting to the clinics I mentioned really tough, if I need to, if the girl needed euthanasia pronto rather than waiting a day). But she went down so freaking fast I'm thinking she wasn't meant to survive.  The boys on the other hand put up a struggle which broke my heart. BUT. I figure I "deserved" to see that as it'd be happening in the freezer anyway. Nerd moment! In Game of Thrones, Eddard Stark said something like the man who sentences must be the one to draw the sword and take the life. I guess I was going by that subconsciously.  But anyway, I honestly would have chanced it if I had more faith in my abilities to jump on the bus at any given moment. Unfortunately my father lives a good hour away so although he's great for advice, no drugs are easily accessible.

*hugs the forum* It only gets better from here!


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

When I cull my first litter, I hope I can do it with the same attitude. Nature isn't sentimental, and can be tough on sick animals. With culling, at least it's quick and humane, and the bubs that are left have the best chance.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I appreciate your paraphrase of Stark. That's very much how I look at culling, and also how I look at meat production. My fiancee and I have an understanding. She could never kill anything (except grubs. she hates grubs! and fish), so she's a pescatarian. No poultry, no red meat, none of it. She knows that by buying the meat, she's sentencing the animal to death, and if she can't do it herself, she shouldn't have the product. I, on the other hand, butcher geese and chickens in my own kitchen, and pick out which cow or pig is going to the butcher for me. It just makes sense to us that way. If you can't handle it, don't do it, but don't expect someone else to do it for you, either. I guess we're just country that way. :/


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

It was pretty awful, and I wish I could have shoved them in the freezer and walked but I truly felt better with following the recommended hypothermia first. MojoMouse mentioned the clicks I hear from the babies were their communication with mum (thank you for telling me!!) and since that's all I heard, if anything (except for the fourth boy...that one squawk will haunt me forever) I really hope it did help their transition to be anesthetized first. I handled it, but I think it was because there were only 8 to begin with, 7 without the runt, that I doubt my decision. I'm not sure I'd do it again if the litter is that size.  If there were 12 or something, I would be able to make peace with myself a little easier with medical reasoning to back it (better for the mum and babies). And if I really do get into this (based on my living situation and my ability to find good stock) a CO2 chamber would be so, so much easier for me. Feeling the slow pawing of the bubs through the latex slowly stop was just...yeah. I may need another way. Even if it's gory, perhaps I'd be better with something instant.

Nothing wrong with being country! I'm not a vegetarian but I don't buy meat (I'll eat it if someone puts it in front of me at a dinner table but for various reasons I'm not much of a meat eater either).


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Since you mention CO2, I have to remind you that CO2 isn't effective on pinkies. They can handle much lower levels of oxygen (living as they do in a pile of babies under mum), which means you can't really gas them humanely.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

Ah yes that's true. Blunt force might be necessary for the wee ones.


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