# Fox/tan/self/chinchilla questions



## Autumn2005

I've been trying to get a grasp on how the genetics relate, and I think I've got it so far. If I'm wrong in any of this, please correct me, and if I'm right, let me know so I don't keep guessing!

A fox is a tan mouse that has the chinchilla gene, right? If you breed a fox to a self without the chin gene, you'll get either all tans if the fox is homozygous for tan, or roughly half tan, half self if the fox is heterozygous. In that case, are the selfs that came from a fox and a self carrying the chin gene?

If you breed two selfs that carry the chin gene, will you get siamese type mice? If you breed a fox to a siamese, will all the pups be foxes if the fox is homozygous for tan? Are all first generation offspring of a tan and a siamese heterozygous for tan?

That's all the questions I have so far. Please let me know how I'm doing on my grasp of genetics. At this point I'm fondly wishing for pea plants!


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## contraria

a fox coms wen a ressesiv c-locus gen kom in combination with the tan gen. this meens that the maus don't nesseserely have to have the chinchilla gen. it can have to gens for beige or one for ekstrime delution and one for beige, and still be fox.

but yes. if you breed a fox to a self, you will get 100% tan if the fox is ****, and 50% tan and 50% self if it's hetro.

alle mice ind the letter will cerry a ressersiv c-locus gen. but if you don't know withs c-locus gens ther are ind the fox, you have no klu about withs ons the mice cerrys efter breeding to a self, if the self is nok a c-locus vereraty, like chinchilla black,beige, colourpoint, siamese, himalayan or PEW.


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## Autumn2005

A couple more questions I just thought of, driving home: Can a tan carry the chin gene, but not express it? So you can breed two tans and unexpectedly get a fox? If you breed a heteroygous fox to a self carrying the chin gene, then the possibilities are self w/chin, tan w/ chin, fox, and siamese?

Is there anything else I'm missing with the genetics that I should be getting?


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## Weema-Nerang Mousery

Can a tan carry the chin gene but not express it? 
The chinchilla gene is c(ch) and yes a mouse can carry it.

So you can breed two tans and get a fox?
If they both carry c(ch) then yes, remember that a mouse needs 2 genes one from each parent to express that gene visually. Most genes behave like this (recessive) however there are Dominant genes which only need one copy inherited from one parent for the colour to show.

If you breed a heteroygous fox to a self carrying the chin gene, then the possibilities are self w/chin, tan w/ chin, fox, and siamese?
If you bred a hetrozygous fox (c(ch) c(ch)) to a self carrying the c(ch) gene then the possiblities are:
50% fox (cch/cch) and 50% cch carriers. 
If your mouse who carried the c(ch) gene also carried c(h) then you have a possibility of Burmese (cch/ch) in the litter. A siamese has two c(h) genes.

Just a tip, which made genetics sooooo much easier for me to understand. Educate yourself with which genes are Dominant (Agouti, etc) and which are Recessive (black, chocolate, C Locus genes, blue, etc) then remember that Dominant genes only need one copy to express themselves and Recessive need two, one from each parent.
Hope I haven't confused you.


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## Autumn2005

Not confused. I'm actually fairly familiar with genes... horse genes. I breed Paint (Piebald/Skewbald in UK) horses, and the Paint gene is dominant in horses. That's why I was surprised to learn it was recessive in mice. Agouti/selfs in mice is a bit like the difference between a black and bay in horses. But for my purpose, I'm using about three color genes in horses when I breed. Fox mice (that I really like the color of) are a little more complicated here!


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## contraria

Mice have over 25 gens and over a dussen other modifire and patten gens.

the most of the genes in mice are of 100% penetrand. were in horses a lot of gens are of 1/3 penetans or les. :?

the tan gen are a paten gen siting on the locus for agouti/non-agouti. therfor its like semi dominat ind a way.

normelig ven a pet is Aa^t you wood never se the ressesiv gens effekt on the fenotype... but sins a^t is an patten gen, it show in the fenotype all thou 

on the c-locus we have thte following gens.

C = no effekt on the fenotype
c^i = ekstrime chinchilla gen
c^ch = chinchilla gen
c^e = ekstrime delution gen
c^m = Chinchilla Mottled
c^h = himalayan gen
c = albino/Ping eyed white gen

any combinaton betwine c^i and c gives fox when the mice also is hetro or **** for tan patten...

it will meens that all the following kombinations gives fox:

_a^t c^ic^i
_a^t c^ic^ch
_a^t c^ic^e
_a^t c^ic^m
_a^t c^ic^h
_a^t c^ic
_a^t c^chc^ch
_a^t c^chc^e
_a^t c^chc^m
_a^t c^chc^h
_a^t c^chc
_a^t c^ec^e
_a^t c^ec^m
_a^t c^ec^h
_a^t c^ec
_a^t c^mc^m
_a^t c^mc^h
_a^t c^mc
_a^t c^hc^h
_a^t c^hc
_a^t cc (this will be a PEW, so you won't se the fox on it)
a^t_ c^ic^i
a^t_ c^ic^ch
a^t_ c^ic^e
a^t_ c^ic^m
a^t_ c^ic^h
a^t_ c^ic
a^t_ c^chc^ch
a^t_ c^chc^e
a^t_ c^chc^m
a^t_ c^chc^h
a^t_ c^chc
a^t_ c^ec^e
a^t_ c^ec^m
a^t_ c^ec^h
a^t_ c^ec
a^t_ c^mc^m
a^t_ c^mc^h
a^t_ c^mc
a^t_ c^hc^h
a^t_ c^hc
a^t_ cc (this will be a PEW, so you won't se the fox on it)

therfor fox is NOT = tan + chinchilla gens


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## Jack Garcia

Fox is usually tan + chinchilla. Not always. But usually.

Mouse color genetics are more complicated than any other animal raised in captivity because we have hundreds of possible combinations/varieties and mice breed so fast.

In addition to the varieties contraria listed, Aw can also give "fox" mice, although they're just called chinchilla (Aw/* cch/cch) in the standards. In this way you can get tan bellies without the tan gene at all. My chinchillas are this kind.


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## Autumn2005

Okay, I understand that. Another question, though: What is the difference between a Siamese and a himalayan? All I know is that in cats, Siamese is short furred, and himalayan long furred. So what is it for mice?


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## contraria

in mice, it'd the gens

c^hc^h is siamese
c^hc is himalaya


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## Autumn2005

Is there a difference in the color? Can you tell by looking at them, or do you have to breed to find out?


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## SarahY

Strictly speaking, Himalayan should be pure white with brown points and no shading, and Siamese should be creamy beige with dark brown points that shade gradually into the body colour. However, you can have pale siamese that look like himis and vice-versa.

Sarah xxx


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## Autumn2005

I have a siamese that is cream, and fades to a darker brown, but on her back is a slightly lighter patch of cream. It's not white like a broken marked, but still cream colored. Is that usual, or a fault, or what?


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## SarahY

Siamese are prone to dreadful looking moult patches, I imagine it's just that 

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon

It is usual, but it is a fault too... its due to molting of the fur. Siams and Himi's can be difficult to breed for show because of this.

If you want to find out whether your 'siamese' is actually a siamese (ch/ch) then breed it to a PEW (c/c) and all the babies will be himilayan (ch/c), if you get himilayan and PEW offspring then it means that what you thought was a siam is actually only a himi. =o)

W xx


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## Jack Garcia

Himalayans are white bodied and Siamese are darker bodied. Himalayans do not have shading, as per the standards; Siamese do:

Here are some US standards:

http://www.afrma.org/miceaocp.htm
http://www.eastcoastmice.org/pointed.htm

This is assuming that you are working with show mice. Pet mice who carry different genes and have unknown background are often "intermediate" in appearance (like a mutt, if you were talking about dogs).


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## Autumn2005

Mine I got from a pet store, so she's not a show mouse. But I love her just the same!


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## Jack Garcia

Of course. 

Some of my favorite mice have been from pet stores.


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## Autumn2005

What about this combination. I have a merle buck who I think is a fox. What would breeding my merle (fox?) to an agouti carrying a broken gene produce? She doesn't have the chin gene, and she's heterozygous for agouti. I think... correct me if I'm wrong... I'll get half agouti, and half tans??? Because a tan is basically a self with the tan gene? Possibly, if he's heterozygous for tan, I could get selfs too? And they'd all carry the chin gene, assuming that's what he has? Am I reading this right?


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## Autumn2005

And mutts are the best animals, not matter what they are: dog, cat, mice, horse! I have 3 dogs, 3 cats, lots of mice, and 1 horse, all of indeterminate breeding. I'm even a mutt myself!


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## Autumn2005

How easy is it to tell the difference between tans and foxes? Do you get some foxes that have creamy bellies? Do you get tans with really yellowy bellies? How do you know for sure what you have? What kind of test breeding would be good for that?


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## moustress

Himalayan has a very light, ideally white, body.


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## unicorn

I must say this all totally confuses me as I breed silver fox, chinchilla and himalayan rabbits and with the mice it all seems so very different, I am lost :lol: I put black fox to black fox I get fox, I put chin to chin I get chin some woolies and ghosts along the way but hey :lol: Him to him and I get him :lol:


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## Autumn2005

Trust me I feel the same way. Like I said before, I breed horses, and you give me genes of two horses, and I can whip you out a punnet square like nothing and tell you everything that might happen with the foal's color. Mice... Yeah, need help. I've been slowly getting it, but that's why I ask so many questions.


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## Autumn2005

Okay, here's something else to put on the burner... I bred my "fox" to a siamese. Both obviously carry the spotting gene, as two of the babies are spotted. Two are PE, probably siamese, but their eyes aren't open yet, and their point are just starting to darken.

My question is this: I know my fox is at/a, since a couple of the babies are siamese. However, of the three black babies, one is fox/tan, and the other two are black selfs. How is this possible??? I thought foxes were at/at ch/ch, and siamese ch/ch. In that case, all the babies should be at/a ch/ch, or ch/ch, fox or siamese, right? So where did the selfs come from? The only thing I can think of, is that my "fox" is actually a really pale tan, she he's at/a C*, which means the one little fox/tan girl should be fox, unless the father is C/ch.

Does this sound right? A fox crossed with siamese should only get foxes and siamese, so the presence of selfs mean the stud must be a tan?


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## Autumn2005

Also, what is the genetic code for a burmese?


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## windyhill

Burmese: a/a cch/ch


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## SarahY

> I thought foxes were at/at ch/ch, and siamese ch/ch. In that case, all the babies should be at/a ch/ch, or ch/ch, fox or siamese, right? So where did the selfs come from?


Not quite 

Black fox is at/* c(ch)/c(ch) _(black tan with two chinchilla genes)_ and Siamese is usually a/a c(h)/c(h) _(black self with two himalayan genes) _- so breeding these together can only result in Burmese foxes a/at c(h)/c(cch), and also Burmese a/a c(h)/c(ch) if the black fox carries a self gene. If there aren't any burmese, your fox is a tan and doesn't have the chinchilla gene.

Just to confuse matters further, at/* c(h)/c(h) is a Siamese with a white belly - the tan gene is dominant but any gene on the c locus will dilute tan to white.

In the litter you're describing above (from Black tan carrying Siamese, self and spotted x Siamese carrying spotted) you would have black self, black tan, black broken, Siamese, Siamese fox and Siamese broken.

Sarah xxx


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## Autumn2005

Okay, so I have more questions...

Would a c/ch or ce/ch look PEW? Would C/ch diliute the tan color on the belly? I bred Spike, my black tan to Dawn, a sooty RY, and three of the babies are PEW! Now, two of his first babies from Karrin, the siamese, were siamese, so he must have */ch, right? And for a mouse to be PEW, they must be c/c or ce/ce, or... what else can make a PEW???


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## Jack Garcia

ch/c or ce/ch _can_ look PEW, but won't always. I have some mice who are a/a cch/c (not quite what you asked about, but still) and they are very dark. I will take pictures tomorrow when it's daylight.

What determines if they look PEW or not is what's on the other loci. Brindle (Avy/*), red (Ay/* or e/e), and sometimes blue (d/d) can make them look PEW, especially with ch/c.

There are dozens of combinations that can make PEW, all involving either the C- or P-loci (or rarely, both). The most common (obviously) is c/c, aka PEW aka albino. ce/ce is beige, btw.

I have a mouse who is A/a cch/c p/p who is identical to my PEWs.


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## Autumn2005

Okay, I was just shocked when three PEWs showed up. I know you like them, Jack, but they always remind me of lab rats. I have to admit, though, the female PEW is a big bouncer of a baby, the biggest in the litter.


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## Jack Garcia

Hehe...I used to hate them. I came full-circle after my first mouse shows because I realized that their color and markings are already perfect so all you have to worry about is type.


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## Autumn2005

Okay, another question.

What would A/at look like? I thought there were no agouti tans, but three of the four agoutis from Dawn and Spike's litter have a noticeably lighter belly, a clear line of demarcation, and the four just has a normal looking belly. Wouldn't agouti hide the tan?


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## Rhasputin

I've had several agouti tans before, so I can assure you they are possible, though I can't explain the genetics.


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## windyhill

Agouti Tan is very possible.
This link is helpful:
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/a-t.html


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## Autumn2005

Okay, I read that article before, but it didn't apply to me at that time, so I just sort of skipped over it. Here's another question though: the tan on the agouti belly is darker than the tan on the two black babies. Is this because of the agouti, and can this darkness be passed down to black off spring, if bred to a self?


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## SarahY

The tan gene is semi dominant over over agouti - A brings the agouti colour, at brings the tan. Because tan only needs one at gene to show, it can show on agouti. An A/at looks like an agouti mouse with a tan belly.

If you mate an agouti and a black tan - A/A x at/at - you'll end up with a whole litter of agouti tans
(if you mate A/A with a/at, you'll get 50% agouti tans A/at, 50% agouti A/a)

If you mate two agouti tans - A/at x A/at, you get 25% agouti A/A, 25% black tan at/at, 50% agouti tan A/at.

You can also make agouti tans of a sort using the white bellied agouti gene Aw, but this needs a lot of selective breeding and doesn't get as strong as tan can.

I think agouti tan is very beautiful, the tan really complements the top colour in my mind.

Sarah xxx


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## windyhill

The only agouti I like is agouti tan


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