# Red buck identity



## Rhasputin

So this buck:










Was never really identified.

After being bred with an agouti mouse, this mouse produced no reds.
That means he must be e/e , correct?

The doe did not carry e (recessvie yellow). And no babies out of a 6 bub litter are red, all black and agouti, maybe blue (not 100% sure yet).

So he must be e/e, right?


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## sys15

very likely, but with just 6 pups, there would be 1.6% chance of none of them getting a lethal or viable red gene, if the male had one.


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## Rhasputin

I suppose, that's such a tiny chance though. 
And the chances that he's lethal / dominant red would be even slimmer, since I am in the US.

I will be breeding him back to one of his pup (assuming there's a nice doe in there), and if there are any reds in their litter, then it must be e/e.


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## Laigaie

Exactly the proper plan! Just remember, no positive result is not the same as a negative result! Poor luck is entirely possible, however unlikely.


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## Rhasputin

Yeah. I have it all worked out in my head, I just wanted to put it out there to make sure I wasn't skipping something. 

One day I got splashed from non splashed parents and thought it was a miracle, and when I posted about it. . . immediately after I posted, I realized. . . DOH! Of course Splashed can come from non splashed parents, they need a c-dilute! :lol:


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## sys15

i would breed him to an unrelated female instead (if you feel that you need to be more sure). breeding him to his daughter should yield 50% reds no matter what red/yellow gene he has.


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## morgan

He's a amazing!


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## Laigaie

sys: Breeding him to an unrelated female is just duplicating the first breeding.

Another option would be to breed his non-pew daughter to his non-pew son, and see if they produce any reds. If so, he MUST be ee. If not, you're back where you started.


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## sys15

Laigaie said:


> sys: Breeding him to an unrelated female is just duplicating the first breeding.


yes, exactly. that cross was exactly what was needed to diagnose the male's genes. it just resulted in some slight ambiguity due to the small number of offspring. another litter would reduce that ambiguity to insignificance.


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## moustress

He's very pretty; he looks just like some of my bigger better reds; his ears may be tad bigger, though.


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## Rhasputin

sys15 said:


> Laigaie said:
> 
> 
> 
> sys: Breeding him to an unrelated female is just duplicating the first breeding.
> 
> 
> 
> yes, exactly. that cross was exactly what was needed to diagnose the male's genes. it just resulted in some slight ambiguity due to the small number of offspring. another litter would reduce that ambiguity to insignificance.
Click to expand...

I understand. 

I guess I'll put him back in with the same doe, and one of his daughters next round.


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## peztree3

He is stunning!


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## tinyhartmouseries

He is really nice color for RY! He is a shade or two darker than my very-very best one ever.


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## Rhasputin

Thank you. He's actually a shade or two darker than he appears in the picture, in person. 
I'm really hoping he will add some more red pigment to my agouti line.


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## Wight Isle Stud

Thats unlikely Rhasputin, unless his own colour is intense,you need his K- Factors for maximum intensity of pigmentation, not his coat colour, but a really good red will do least damage to the Agoutis Ticking. Its nothing to do with the red adding red to another red based mouses coat. That mouse does look stunning, a credit to you.


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## Loganberry

As an example of extremely different results in repeat breeding, litter 1 from pied doe carrying splashed to tri buck resulted in pieds and splashed (12 of them). Litter 2 resulted in no splashed, but 6 pied and 5 tris. Both of those results are pre-culling.


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## Rhasputin

There may actually be reds in the litter! :shock: 
But if they are red, they are very dull red. They are all satin, it seems, so this is making it harder to tell coat colour.

This is getting interesting!
I wonder what these 'possibly red' babies are. I don't think they can be chocolate, the mother does not carry it. But they appear light 'brownish' in colour. The mother only carries some type of c dilute (not sure which) and blue.

Hmmm. . . why don't these babies grow faster!?


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## Stina

I thought the buck was sold to you as A^vy?....if that's the case, red babies make perfect sense. Also, with any of the red/yellow shades, color tends to intensify/even as they mature.


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## Rhasputin

Yes. He was sold with a tenative identity of brindle. But I would think that there would be some kind of brindle looking things in the litter. I'm not even positive if there are reds in the litter. Right now there are brown, and dark brown. :lol:

Like I said I really wish these would grow faster so I could tell what they are for sure.


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## Laigaie

Wight: Why would breeding in an intensely red mouse to another mouse who would benefit from the modifiers that made such an intense red... not going to improve the redness of the coat? That's pretty much what modifiers do. You breed in the wrong-variety/right-modifiers mouse to the right-variety/wrong-modifiers mouse, then select for right-variety/right-modifiers.


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## Wight Isle Stud

That mouse is far from intensely red. Read my Post again. It says that you need intense colours to improve the intensity of the target colour. Rhasputin has already told you the results of using this mouse.


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## Rhasputin

There are reds in the litter! I can't tell for sure, but I think they look VERY faintly stripey. Might just be my imagination though.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Wight! You are right for sure, but please remember we are in the US and that is a nice yellow/red comparitively.


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## Wight Isle Stud

I just wish I could send you six Mice. It doesn't really matter though as you are all on a level plain over there, so your showing at the Same standard, if you know what I am trying to say. If I can be of assistance to you, what someone needs to do is identify a breed that would be most useful genetically to other breeds, Pick a black eyed breed, and lets say reds. Specialise and build the colour up to its maximum intensity, you will need about 20 boxes,30 0dd mice to do this and about three years. Sometimes all 20 boxes will be full, sometimes only five. The reds will give their colour intensity to other breeds, you could have fabulous Agoutis, Cinnamons, Sables, and in turn these will fire up your Tans, chocolates... all across the board.Secondly, I would start a line of Type Mice. again a specialist stud just concentrating on a line of Silvers frequently bred as one with pink eyed whites. again, a good few years work. These in turn will create all the pink eyed breeds from the dark eyed. Five years, which is nothing in livestock terms,and you could be there. I am aware that there are moves a foot to obtain some English, which would considerably speed up this process. For many decades over here we have had specialist studs doing exactly what i have described. Regards From the Isle of Wight.


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## tinyhartmouseries

You know Wight, I agree with you...we need reds and typey PEWS or something...


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## Wight Isle Stud

I have given you those breeds as a starter for one as you will find they will be of most help to you. There are some breeds for which selection from the strain its self is the only way to improve them.


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## Wight Isle Stud

Its just an idea, but I think a good one as you are all mad keen like we are, (That suggests a you and us but that's far from the truth), why doesn't just a couple of you subscribe to the National Mouse club Magazine each Month- the show reports alone will keep you closely in touch with the English Fancy, frequent photographs of winners, and whose who.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Where and how much, set me up for sure! Sounds great!


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## Rhasputin

Wight, I and a few friends of mine have plans on getting another shipment from the UK with only base mice like reds and blacks, and 1 or 2 mice that we just have none of here like silvered. 

Here's a photo from the litter, the dark brown ones are actually reds. They almost look like chocolates. I hope they redden up with age.


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## moustress

It's always good to have more options rather than less when breeding towards one's goals. I had been offered some European reds quite some time ago, but I think it's a bit too dark for my purposes, which is red/yellow tricolors.

As far as the rest of it, I may be interested in F1's later, but I see no reason why American breeders need to duplicate/copy what's been done overseas, except perhaps in the area of size and type.


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## sys15

i have very little experience with reds/yellows of any type, but those fuzzies look nothing like the viable yellow fuzzies i've seen (just 2 litters).


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## Rhasputin

Yeah, I'm thinking that the original thought of the buck being brindle, is what he is after all.


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