# can you get satin blue tans/foxes?



## Markus

Can you get satin blue tans/foxes? I really like the idea of the colour contrast and shine. I would really like to get some of these for myself as mice are just so cute and I imagine the combo to be exquistite to have!


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## Frizzle

Yes, but I think I understand that they don't look quite so blue. Satin you can put on everything, but it does change the color some, generally darkening it. Here is a link to blue fox.
http://www.miceandrats.com/aov_blfx.htm

Here is a link to blue tan.
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/blue_tan.html


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## Markus

I so love the blue foxes!! I will so have to get some of those at some point!! How do you get the satin sheen on them? I'm a total novice -_-' Only had 4 in the house for 2days which I got for my Misses and I'm already looking for some more for myself now. They are just too cute!!


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## SarahC

Satin is a gene that they must already carry.If they don't carry it you can introduce it on a mouse that is satin or carries satin.Blue doesn't show satin quite as well as you might imagine.This picture is of a blue satin on the left and a normal blue on the right.


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## Markus

I see what you mean, is it any better in person or does the camera do it justice? I've noticed a few types don't show well on cameras. So correct me if I'm wrong but I would need a satin blue and a blue fox and breed the pair to have satin blue foxes?


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## SarahC

it is more attractive in real life but not stunning by a long stretch.A lighter blue would be more attractive in satin but that would not match the show standard.That doesn't matter if you don't intend to show of course.It wouldn't matter which mouse was satin.Fox or blue.You will probably have to settle for whats easiest to obtain in your area.


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## Markus

Yeah that's true, I haven't made my mind up if I intend to show or not yet. I'm going down the enfield show on the 1st of Feb to see if its something I'm going to get into or not. I never knew any of this existed until a week ago to be honest and with any hobby it will be time consuming and put a dent in my monthly budget so I'm going to make a decision once I have some first hand experience. I wouldn't want to start this hobby and then go to a show and not like it. 
I have tried reading up on genetics but the massive blocks of texts on sb that and /something has really confused me. Any chance you might be able to explain them abit plainer? From what I currently understand is some genes are dominent so are more likely to show in offspring and some genes are reccessive so they may not show or show much less in offspring. The more mixed bred mouse is likely to have a litter of different colours rather then a mouse who's only been bred with its own colour. The more its bred with its own the less likely its to have offspring that doesn't match the parents. Have I got this right so far? 
So if it doesn't matter which, I could breed say a satin blue with a brown fox and get some satin blue foxes and some satin brown foxes from the litter?


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## SarahC

I'd just get some mice you find attractive and enjoy some hobby breeding for pleasure and then think about whether you'd like to show or not.You might have to join the club to source the mice if you want something specific like foxes.Personally I have no interest in genetics .You don't need vast genetic knowledge to breed good animals,just a little if you are trying to achieve a particular goal.This is a site witten by a member on here which might help you
http://www.fancymice.info/genetics.htm


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## Markus

Yeah, I read that a lil while ago and is where I got my little bit of understanding from. Its the further on reading from that is making my brain hurt tbh. I just want to know what combinations of parents I would need to produce satin blue foxes so I've only a slight interest in the genetics as a means to an end.

I agree that I shouldn't make my mind up straight away about breeding for show or breeding for pleasure without actually finding out and experiencing what it all entails. Me and my misses decided once we read up on the internet about fancy mice and the hobby that we would attend a show to see what it is like and meet some breeders and perhaps find a friendly one or two I can pick the brains of and learn of their experiences. Having a show so local to us has made the decision to get involved a lot easier (my misses suffers from bad travel sickness so long car/bus/train journeys can become problematic for her) as we will literally have to walk to the end of my road, down a main road and then follow another main road for about 10mins and we'll be there.

I'm currently in no rush to go out and source some mice to breed straight away as I haven't kept mice before so have literally next to no experience. I only just got 4 white Does (with slight silver patches and one with a slighty sliver rump) for my misses on the 21/12/13 as a christmas present as she really wanted some and we just love the companionship of them and enjoy watching them, sometimes even for hours (I so need to get a beanbag or something as the dead leg from sitting on floor boards for long periods of time is starting to get to me lols). So we are very interested in getting some more as its unfair on the mice to have them out and about with us for long periods of time. When it comes to breeding there's always a lot more for me to take into consideration which are:
My misses is very soft hearted when it comes to animals so things like stillborns, culled by mum, culled by humans or even deformities have a real impact on her, this has caused me to keep her away from my current conservation project/personal rescues at times so I'm limited to dealing with them issues when she is not around or having to find a distraction for her so she doesn't see them. 
Space is also a bit of an issue as I'm at the moment renting a large room and I'm still unsure what size RUBs I'm going to need for keeping my does, keeping my bucks, for breeding in and for seperating the litter at 4weeks. 
Being a total novice means I may make mistakes because of my lack of experience which may put the mice in my care at risk unless I can get some support of an experienced breeder who can advise/help me when I'm in times of need. I have always been a responcible breeder and I have pride in that fact. I don't care how big or small any animal is, it deserves to be kept in top quality conditions, to be taken care of in the appropiate way and to be given the best chance at life. I am careful who I sell to and recently have become very selective over what rescues I take injured wildlife to due to concerns with conditions. (I have to admit, now being on this forum is putting this a lot more at ease to me).

I hope you now know exactly where I'm coming from and why its such a big decision for us to make even if its just breeding for pleasure we are taking everything into consideration. We may just buy some and not breed at all if that's the best course of action. Thanks for all your help so far as you have been very helpful. Any further assistance would be greatly appreciated. Btw I take it you breed mice?


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## PPVallhunds

to get satin blue fox you will need the satin gene which is submissive so a mouse needs 2 copies to be satin, the tan gene which is dominant so a mouse only needs 1 tan gene to be tan (but it wont show on a red mouse), and the chinchilla gene which is also ressive. and the blue gene that is also ressive.

I doupt you will find a satin fox as I would imagin they would be harder to show as you have more to get right with them compaired to a satin self. so you would have to make them. If looking at pet mice keep in mind a poor tan can look like a poor fox. Fox is a chinchillarised tan

how to make it depends on what mice you can get. 
so say a satin blue to a black fox (blue fox is not that common) will give you all black tans, who carry blue and satin. breed them together to get black tans, blacks, black foxes, blue, blut tan and blue foxes all in non satin and satin.


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## SarahC

Markus said:


> Btw I take it you breed mice?


yes,I breed and show but I started with pet mice after my son was given some as a birthday gift.I still keep some non show mice just because I like them.I do enjoy the showing but as you have recognised it does throw up some ethical issues which some people can't adapt to.I used to show dogs but the breeding side flew in the face of my feelings for dog welfare and ultimately wasn't for me.I still like and keep dogs but only as pets,same thing really.


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## PPVallhunds

Markus said:


> . The more mixed bred mouse is likely to have a litter of different colours rather then a mouse who's only been bred with its own colour. The more its bred with its own the less likely its to have offspring that doesn't match the parents. Have I got this right so far?
> So if it doesn't matter which, I could breed say a satin blue with a brown fox and get some satin blue foxes and some satin brown foxes from the litter?


Basically yes, inbreeding increases the chance of genes paring up and will increase the likely hood a litter will look the same as it will decrease variation This can be used to lock in traits and breed traits out. However this can work for bad traits as well as good traits. Outcrossing increases variation so there will be many diffrent genes and traits so litters may not all have the same traits.

A satin blue to a choc fox (assuming there from a breeder who isn't mixing colours) won't give u any blue only black tans. (As if the breeder is not mixing colours the choc Fox won't carry blue). If you bred the black tans together you can get blue, blue tan, blue fox, black, black tan, black Fox, lilac, lilac tan, lilac Fox in both satin and non Satin.
If you bred the black tan back to the fox you could get black tan, black Fox, choc tan, choc Fox who may or may not carry blue or satin or carry both. But u won't k is who is a carrier.


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## Markus

So I need a black fox and a satin blue and then breed two of their litter and then I might get one and if not a blue fox and a satin blue from the next litter should work as the blue fox might have the recessive satin but not be showing? I think I get it a lot better now. 
So if I get this right if I can only get a black satin and a black fox then I would have breed two of their litter to get a satin black fox and get a blue. Then breed two of that litter to get a satin blue/ blue fox (which reccessively carries satin) and then I should get one from them? 
But I have to keep it in blue/black to start (as blue comes from black) and can't go into other colours without getting colours I don't want? (Like getting the lilac because of the brown). What if I had a satin white and a black fox would that produce a satin blue fox eventually? 
I take it to keep what you want you have to inbreed just to make sure they carry the right genes. Even if I get a black fox and a satin blue it might have been mix bred in the past so the litter could produce other then black and blues?

What classes do you compete in sarah? How long have you shown mice? Did you get into breeding just for showing? How do you get rid of the mice you don't need?
I have to admit when I ask my self them questions I can see my self coming up with good come backs each and every time like I may have only a room but I can give up a 4ft by 8 or 10ft tops space for a rack. My misses might not like it but she doesn't have to see as I can tell her to stay away from the RUBs and she can keep some in tanks for her pets which will keep her happy. I know a few people with snakes that would take/maybe buy some dead mice off me. There's quite a few pet shops around and none stock pet mice so they might buy some off me or sell some off on the internet. The only one question I can't answer is do I have it in me to cull off something as sweet and cute as a mouse. I think that is going to be one thing I'm not going to know until I get there. If I'm right in thinking I'm going to need to have like 4 to 5 litters to get what I want then its going to take me more then a year before I'm going to just have a pair of what I want. For a show quality with good coat I take it I'm going to have to have more litters only keeping the best looking ones to breed on eachtime which is going to take even longer. That's a lot of mice to get rid of and I really doubt I could sell or give away that many away without having to cull some off.


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## PPVallhunds

With the satin white it will most likely be pink eye white high is albino, albino covers all colours (think of it like painting the moise white) so unless you know what others genes the moise has it could be anything under the white. But it all depends on what mice you can get realy, if u can only get satin in PEW it just may take you longer to get what u wAnt.

If your interested in showing I'd personally either habe two lines of stick with a line from a breeder rather than trying to make a colour (so if two lines one to show and a seperate satin blue fox line) as you will be looking at year's to get a moise good enough to show. As if you mixing the colours you will get the colour you want but you will then habe to work to get the right shade of that colour. I currently have 3 lines my foxes to show, a new line of Siamese I'm planning to start showing and my orignal line of Siamese that came from my first pet mice, I'm 3 years into breeding that line and all though I've had massive improvement with it it's still not good enought to show. 
With a satin blue fox you will need to get the foxes colour right which you will lose when you cross it, so I'd get a line to show and have a smaller line to make your satin blue foxes.

My mice that are not good enough to breed/show, get sick or too old end up culled and used as snake food,some old does get retired to where iWork to live out here days. A few young mice go as pets (hardly any as here there not popular pets) and if I habe too many a bunch will go to a local feeder breeder who I agree with there breeding methods. 
It's not a nice thing to habe to do, but there are a few diffrent methods (they can only be discussed on culling forum or by pm) some find one method easyer than another. But breeders who do it do it for a reason and that helps for me. I never thought I could cull and use to think it was evil u till I learnt more about it, I had a friend show me how which helped alot. But after breeding a few pet litters to work on Siamese I soon ended up with bucks fighting due to not being able to seperate them as I had too many mice and no where for them to go despite my best efforts. If i didnt cull I wouldn't be able to breed more than 1-3 times a year which would hold me back with improving them and showing. The way I see it a good life and a quick end, that's better than some people get.

I live with my mother who doesn't like the mice or culling and my friend isn't comfortable with culling either so they simply don't watch, they know I do it and my friend did ask to watch once.


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## SarahC

Markus said:


> What classes do you compete in sarah? How long have you shown mice? Did you get into breeding just for showing? How do you get rid of the mice you don't need?


I mainly keep brokens and I've had them for 11 years.I do cull them.I have a captive carrion crow and that has every single pinky that is spare.The adult culls are split between a friend who keeps raptors,the local wildlife hospital and selling to a reptile keeper.That takes care of them all,none are wasted and that's how I square it with my conscience.You might be better to consider a marked variety.Some people will say not to because you have to breed lots to produce a winner.That's true but you can tell at 4 days old which ones are keepers and therefore not grow so many on in the first place.With fox you will have to grow them on to 6 weeks plus before deciding on your keepers.


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## Cait

Markus, blue is a dilution gene that changes black fur to blue fur. To create blues from non-blue mice, they must carry the gene (this means having one copy of the recessive gene, that is not expressed in the coat - to show as blue, two copies of the gene are needed). You cannot 'create' blue from mice without any copies of the blue dilution gene. I hope that helps. You are right that mixing other dilutions such as chocolate into blues is a bad idea.

The most likely combination you could get from exhibition breeders is black fox and blue self (both normal). Therefore you could breed these together to produce a litter of black tans. You would then breed the babies together, to try and combine the three genes you need (at, cch and d). Three quarters of these babies would have the tan gene (this is dominant, so would express itself even with one copy). One quarter would be cch/cch, which is the chinchilla gene that dilutes a tan belly to white. One quarter would be d/d, which is blue. Further to this, half of the babies would carry blue and/or chinchilla, but you wouldn't be able to tell which by looking.

To work out the chance of getting everything you need in one mouse i.e. a blue fox in this generation you multiply the 0.75 x 0.25 x 0.25. That means approximately one in 22 babies would be a blue fox. You are unlikely to get that many babies in one litter so you'd have to breed several does to achieve that one blue fox. Once you have one or more blue foxes obviously breed them together to propagate them.

Adding satin to these would then be a case of trying to get hold of a blue satin or blue satin tan. You could do this at the same time as the initial breeding but the odds of getting a satin blue fox would be worse because you're adding a fourth locus (satin) to the other three 'ingredients'. If you already have blue foxes you can concentrate on adding the satin separately if you still want to.


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## PPVallhunds

SarahC said:


> .You might be better to consider a marked variety.Some people will say not to because you have to breed lots to produce a winner.That's true but you can tell at 4 days old which ones are keepers and therefore not grow so many on in the first place.With fox you will have to grow them on to 6 weeks plus before deciding on your keepers.


That's why I want to take up brokens next year. I don't tend to pick my foxes untill 8-12 weeks so it would be much easyer to pick in the first week. Less adults to cull then so more space in the boxes.


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## SarahY

Hi Markus. Just wanted to say I have bred a few satin foxes, some black and some blue, and they were extremely disappointing! Satin makes white hairs translucent so the fox bellies were grey not white as the satin allowed the under colour to show through. On top of this, the white ticking was invisible! You may be better off keeping a line of foxes and a separate line of self blue satins.


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## Lyra

SarahY said:


> Hi Markus. Just wanted to say I have bred a few satin foxes, some black and some blue, and they were extremely disappointing! Satin makes white hairs translucent so the fox bellies were grey not white as the satin allowed the under colour to show through. On top of this, the white ticking was invisible! You may be better off keeping a line of foxes and a separate line of self blue satins.


Ow, that's disappointing, I was hoping for satin blue foxes myself 
Are the bellies of blue tans in satin grayer than the standard ones too?


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## Markus

To SarahY: your dutchs are beautiful!! I checked out your page quickly and love the black foxes!! Considering how hard it will to get satin blue foxes I'll probably do a line of them just for myself rather then for show and see how they turn out. 
To SarahC: I have to admit I do like the marked varieties better then the others bar the satins as I love the sheem they seem to have. Yet as I would like satin on a light colour I doubt I would get into it if it darkens the colour as I imagine it would take a lot of breeding to lighten it out.

Thanks for all the genetics info. I have a fair idea of what goes with what now and if someone could link me info on what genes are reccessive, dominant and lethal as I've been looking for it but seem to only find pages with examples rather then a list, it would be greatly appreciated.

If I do get into shows then I can see myself in the marked/self sections as they are what I really like! Will probably breed tans, foxes and dutchs and dark coloured selfs. I really like blues and they are my favouite but will take a long time to get to show quality so I will probably get into blacks to start as from what I've read are much more common. Its just going to come down to can I cull or not whether I'm going go get into shows I think or whether I can find a breeder to do it for me if I can't. Might sound abit funny but I think I would find it a lot easier putting an adult down then a baby. I do have a couple people who would want deceased adult mice but I don't know anyone who would want pinkies. Seeing my mice going back into the circle of life I think will ease my conscious a lot more then putting them into the bin.

So just so I know this for sure. To make my own line I need two mice from different breeders. Inbreed the kids to lock in what I want and have less variation. Outcross for more variation and to start a new line? 
This is a lot more complicated then I though but I really like the idea of it all and can't wait to start. So for each line I need 5 boxes? (One for my stud, one for does, one for breeding and one for baby does and one for baby bucks?

Thanks everyone!! This has really helped me out. I'm pretty sure that I would still be lost on the simple genetics if it wasn't for all of you.


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## Cait

Markus said:


> Thanks for all the genetics info. I have a fair idea of what goes with what now and if someone could link me info on what genes are reccessive, dominant and lethal as I've been looking for it but seem to only find pages with examples rather then a list, it would be greatly appreciated.


Finnmouse is pretty comprehensive: http://hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/genetics/index.html



Markus said:


> To make my own line I need two mice from different breeders. Inbreed the kids to lock in what I want and have less variation. Outcross for more variation and to start a new line?
> This is a lot more complicated then I though but I really like the idea of it all and can't wait to start. So for each line I need 5 boxes? (One for my stud, one for does, one for breeding and one for baby does and one for baby bucks?


You can get mice from two different breeders if you want to, but you don't have to in order to show the offspring. You can show anything you've bred yourself, even if your foundation stock is all from the same source. Exhibition mice are inbred to fix in the good points so don't outcross unless you actually need to or you'll probably bring in unwanted traits.

How many boxes you need depends on what variety you're breeding. It seems to be the general consensus that you need around 10 boxes (or more) per variety. For example, selfs are more consistent than marked, so to show marked you need to breed (and cull) more mice. I would advise you to start with one or two varieties only and get into the swing of things before you attempt any more. Some people specialise in one variety and others have two or three. Not many can compete in all five sections as this takes a lot of space, mice and overall, time.


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## Markus

I would perfer starting my own line so that's why I'm going to go for 2 different breeders otherwise I feel like I'm continuing someone elses stock.
To Cait: So I should I start with selfs to see if I can be a mouse breeder and later choose others to collect? 
What would the 10 boxes be for or is it just 2 of each I mentioned?


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## Cait

A self would be a good choice to start with, but only if you like them and think you can look at ten boxes of them every day  A stud of selfs would consist of (roughly) 3 adult bucks and 20+ adult does. You would probably have a running on box for does, in constant use, which would hold all the weaned baby does until you select further or breed from them. Bucks are not kept in every litter. If one is particularly good or you need to replace an adult you grow one or more on, but more often than not they are culled in the nest. Most boxes are taken up with mated mice or does with litters, since the show life of a mouse is short and you need to keep replacing those who are older.


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## Markus

I really like blues but thinking long and hard on it I really like foxes especially black or blue foxes! Having to see 10 boxes of them everyday for the next few years really has made me go off the idea of selfs as even though I like them I can see me getting bored of them after awhile. With the foxes as soon as I saw one my mind was made up in a matter of seconds that that is what I wanted as a pet. Marked might be a harder section but I think its best to go with something I won't get bored of rather then what's easier. 
How long is the life of a show mouse?
I'm thinking of making a big cage for all my retired does to live out the rest of their lives in. I don't think I'm going to get into mass breeding until I've abit of experience as I've never bred mice before.
So I need a box for does, breeding box, a running box for weaned does and a box each for my bucks? 
Can I have one buck and partner him up with multiple pairs of does?


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## Cait

In that case I would say to try your hand at black foxes to start with - once you've decided if it's for you and whether you like showing you can try to make blue foxes if you still want to. I say this because I wouldn't advise someone who has never bred before to create a variety from scratch while learning about showing at the same time! Perhaps talk to PPVallhunds (Jo) about getting some black foxes to start you off.

The life of a show mouse varies by variety. If you get a good marked mouse then it will probably have the longest show life of all, but still only a few months. Some mice may only be shown once, for example if shows at that time of the year are spread out or you need to breed it. After a doe has been bred from I don't show it again, with bucks it doesn't make any difference if they have been bred from but they must be in peak condition. Some varieties suffer from bad moult marks e.g. Siamese so that can limit which mice you can show and for how long. I don't mean to be vague but there is no one answer - I suppose I'd say you'd show them anywhere from one time to for about 3 months - it's a very small window.


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## PPVallhunds

Markus said:


> I would perfer starting my own line so that's why I'm going to go for 2 different breeders otherwise I feel like I'm continuing someone elses stock.
> To Cait: So I should I start with selfs to see if I can be a mouse breeder and later choose others to collect?
> What would the 10 boxes be for or is it just 2 of each I mentioned?


Depending on the verify you may find that both breeders come from the same line any way, I had that with my foxes, I originally got my starter stock from sarahY on here then later I had some more from a diffrent breeder who had passed away. I combined the lines as each had something I prefured. It then turned out later on when talking to Sarah that the second breeder I got from was who she had orignaly got hers from. But it's I've read its better to go for a related line as it will be slightly diffrent from the other but not too diffrent.

But I like that idea as the mice I have today have been bred in the club to the standard for probably over a hundred years .

If my does actually cooperate there will be some of my foxes in the auction at Worcester show.

I think the longest my boys have been showing for is around 6 months, but life wise the youngest stud buck had died naturally at 1 years, my oldest is still going at all most 2 and a half years. As long as there fertile the bucks can breed at any age so they hang around longer in my shed than the does do.

Box wise per varity I have 1 big box (under bed storage box) for does who are not being bred, 3 small boxes for adult bucks (either alown or with 1-2 does) and 4-5 small boxes for a pair of does to birth and raise litters in together. Young bucks once seemed at 4-5 weeks stay together in a new small box (only litter brothers, I don't mi e New ones together) untill I pick who is staying then they get there own box.
I plan to swap this to more small boxes for adults does to permanently live in instead of going back into the big box so I can keep more of an eye on what each doe is producing as I've had some crap mothers reasontly but once they go back into the big box I don't know who is who. I want to get about 10 boxes for adult does deemed good enought to keep.


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## Markus

Hmmm that's food for thought. Might have to start my own line later. Yeah to start I was going to go for black foxes as me and my misses loves them! I'll probably later have a litter of blue foxes just for pets and if they one day get to show quality then I might show them. 
That's one thing I haven't thought about, how much do show mice usually go for? I've seen how much pet mice go for (£2-£6).
Mice sure don't live long, seems show mice don't even last as long as a normal mouse.
To start I think I'll get a 50l RUB or equivalent decent quality storage box for my Does, a 10l one for my buck and a 20l for them to breed in. If I don't get into breeding for show then I'll just breed them to have some foxes around for a long time. I can always get more later. Now I know what to get after New Years day i'm going to start getting what I need and then I'll be on the search for some Black foxes. I will defiantly make a note of that PPVallhunds and might see you there for the auction but I will let you know before hand. Always nice putting a face to a name.


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## Cait

It's not that show mice don't live as long as pets (they do) but that their show life is short. The earliest age you enter them is about 5 weeks and if it's a doe she's ready to breed at 12 weeks. You don't really want to delay breeding a doe too long since they have their best litters at a younger age, so you might have a window of a maximum of 7-9 weeks, for example. After that the doe will be bred from and raise litters, so you won't be able to show her. Once does get older and the quality of their litters decline or they (sometimes) stop conceiving and so on, some breeders will cull them to make room for younger replacement does who are showable and productive. In the past I have given older does away as pets to friends, and they live to anything from two years to three and a half. The most common age seems to be around two and a half though, which is pretty good. That's based on self cream and rumpwhites. As for price, well most breeders will charge around £20 a trio or once they get to know you, give them to you free of charge. They are no more expensive than pet mice a lot of the time (which I think is wrong, but that's another debate!).


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## PPVallhunds

Everyone has there own prices, some give stock free to people who they believe are genuinely going to show (some require a person to be a member, subscribed to the news and have maxey show box) and some charge for them.
I usually sell mine for £15 a trio on the rare occasion I have anyone who wants any, I've also given mice to exhibitors for free or swapped mice.
Fifteen is the cheapest I've seen which is why I stick to that as I've not been in it long so as I've not had the experience and as much success of some of the other breeders I feel I'm still lurning so i don't feel I could ask for more. But I'd habe no problem paying more for good stock.


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## Markus

That's good, a trio, like 2 does and a buck? 
Well, placing an order for my mesh on monday so just got to wait til that comes and then its a trip to Selco. I will let you all know how it goes. Thanks


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