# should ex breeders be sold on as breeding stock.



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

In my opinion no,no no.I am willing to travel far and wide at great expense to get the stock I want and pay the going rate but I expect young healthy stock.More often than not I find rodents that are past their best being flogged for top price.If people can't bring themselves to cull(which I fully understand)they should keep or honestly rehome the old and the weak not wash their hands of the problem whilst lining their own pockets.If I sell stuff, it hasn't been bred from and I give adults away ,cull or keep them.I have a motley crew of purchased rodents of all types that have been bought and are past breeding.Well I don't like killing things and resent be lumbered.Rant over,not aimed at any one specifically just all those from various mouse,rat,hamster,preloved,loot etc etc who do this.Lively ,friendly debate welcome :!:


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I agree, unless otherwise stated I would expect young stock that hadn't been bred from. If honestly sold then ok, the person getting the animal knows what they're getting, but not to say and then to expect people to be happy with what they get is unfair. On the other hand I know some European breeders (of mice) often ask for proven animals only. In other words they want to know it can breed, only to be proven by breeding it of course. In this case obviously ONE litter would presumably be acceptable, but no more (unless a buck perhaps). I don't see the point myself, it's not too often they won't breed, and by proving it can you've missed out on what might be the best litter that doe will ever have.


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## Ruthy (Oct 3, 2008)

I agree,

Usually everything i sell on is young stock which is surplus, anything i keep for breeding staying with me and then either retires here or retires somewhere else.

I dont this is does any harm if the person selling the stock has bred one litter from them, as long as the buyer knows this and is accepting.

Ruth


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

I brought a doe once from a breeder, she had had one litter and killed them all. I knew the situation and was happy to try her again. She then had two litters both of which she cared for fantastically and are some of the best type mice I've bred into my rumpwhites (Just remembered I actually didnt buy the mouse it was given to me!). She is one of my favourite mice and was one of the chosen few who lives in my retirement tank.

Anyway apart from that I would never have assumed other breeders sold anything but young stock. I'm quite shocked that anyone would, especially without discussing the mouses history fully and certainly not charging for the animal. 
I think bucks might be a bit different as having them bred before is a positive thing and doesnt affect their breeding potential or the quality of the offspring. But I think there should be a reasonable limit to the age of any mouse being sold.


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## Effy (Dec 30, 2008)

ian said:


> I think bucks might be a bit different as having them bred before is a positive thing and doesnt affect their breeding potential or the quality of the offspring. But I think there should be a reasonable limit to the age of any mouse being sold.


Is that true? I assumed they would be like most animals in that the first...production...of sperm
is the healthiest and most vibrant and the older and more...used...it is, the fewer and weaker the sperm and offspring...but agreed that it wouldn't be as extreme as females of any given species.
When I had rats, I had a limit on male matings as well, which was double the female's...maybe one or two more if it was a fantastic breeder. But usually, they'd decline as well.

More on topic...from my own, non-mouse-having views ( :roll: maybe I'll have some soon...) I wouldn't need anything to be 'proven'...as, if it's come from a good line of breeders, it's highly unlikely it would be anything different...it would really piss me off if she'd had a litter that was fantastic and then when I got her, they were all really bad litters...I'd prefer to have the great one myself...or all bad litters and know nothing else!


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

As long as the bucks is healthy and being fed a quality diet then he should (in theory) produce healthy sperm, that should apply to other species too. I have read that in humans couple with fertility problems are encouraged to regularly 'release' the sperm so that the sperm being used is fresher (I may have worded that very badly in an attempt to be delicate!!.)

I dont think the first batch is necessarily the best with bucks, and often not with does either. Sometimes a more experienced buck will be more readily accepted by a doe.

Also there's no way of telling that a mouse will be functioning reproductively even if they do come from good lines or good breeders, as it may not be a genetic cause. I have only had one doe and no bucks which has failed to become pregnant within a few weeks of being introduced, so judging purely on my own expeirence infertility in young healthy mice must be reasonably rare.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I am of the opinion that the first two litters are the best health and stamina wise.I think selling stuff at top whack after having what may be the best out of them is wrong.I shan't be zooming off anywhere again without it being very clear that I am expecting young stock with maximum breeding potential.There is no room left in the spare room for defunct rodents.


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

I agree that a doe's first two litters are best - I usually won't breed a third time because it's better to have the older does help the younger ones look after the 'better' babies that they produce, rather than raise their own litter of lower quality. There are exceptions but most of my does would only have two litters, some three but I'd never go above that unless it was a very special case.


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Ive just had my first does to have their third litters and they haven't been as successful as their previous litters although acceptable.

When you use older does as nannies do you breed them and then just cull thier litter or put them in with the pregnant doe before she gives birth?


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## Cait (Oct 3, 2008)

Either method will work. I am lucky in that most or all my does usually lactate in response to a litter in the tank, so even if there's 2 litters with 4 does, for example, they will all be able to feed them in many cases. This has been a life saver quite literally when the birth mother has been ill and had to be culled, I can just leave them with the other doe(s) who will feed them.


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

Wow I didnt know they could lactate in response to babies without being pregnant, that could prove incredibly useful.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Just goes to show it's good to talk...,


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## Dragonfly-Stud (Oct 5, 2008)

Sorry, playing catch-up not been able to get on site yet again.

Used Does being sold on... errrm... gotta be a huge NO from me unless buyer is aware then stock would be given freely.

As for nannies I often bung in a non pregnant doe in with banded mothers mine don't always lactate in response but they do seem to help with other mothering duties, I tend to use underage does as I believe it prepares them for their own litters which reduces the chances of litter eating .......works for me.


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