# Satin - Color of teeth



## Morena

I was able to make pics of mice with satincoat

You see it very well, the teeth are white like ivory

Blue Satin aa dd sasa








Black Satin aa sasa









Satin on black mice is only to recognize by teeth


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## SarahY

Excellent pictures!!

Sarah xxx


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## Rhasputin

Great photos! These are very helpful! Bravo!! 

Now, could you take a picture of a normal mouse's teeth, for comparison?


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## SarahC

thanks for sharing that.Fascinating,how did you discover this?


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## Morena

I read it on internet and watched on my mice .
I often have black mice with possible satincoat, so I always have to look on the teeth to see if they are
satin or not.


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## SiamMeece

Great pics, very helpfull! But how about satin carriers?


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## Morena

Carriers you cannot recognize, they got normal teeth


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## Roland

Fantastic pictures and fantastic "Red Carpet" Mice.
Congratulations! Very well done.

Best regards and
viele Grüße in die Schweiz!

Roland


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## SiamMeece

Since you seem to know so much about satin Morena, do you know if it's ok to breed satin x satin or should satin be bred to a carrier?


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## Morena

My experience has shown that the number of babies of satin * satin were often smaller then others, maybe some babies already die in the uterus or after birth and the mother ate them. Because of this and also because I don't want to have satin only, I mostly set up pairs satin * satin carrier. But the remaining Babies of Satin * Satin, so my experience, aren't less healthy than babies of satin * satin carrier.

For an exact explanation I have to ask someone else, as soon as I have the answer I will post it here.
The only thing I really know is that the hairs don't become thinner wenn you pair satin * satin, that's jsut a gossip.


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## Morena

> Fantastic pictures and fantastic "Red Carpet" Mice.
> Congratulations! Very well done.
> 
> Best regards and
> viele Grüße in die Schweiz!


Thank you Roland. 
Auch von mir viele Grüsse nach Deutschland.


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## Morena

I asked my friend and it's actually like I thought :

Some babies die in the uterus, that's why the litters of satin * satin have less babies than in other litters. For the mother there's no danger.
The babies which are alive aren't less healthy than others.


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## SiamMeece

Thx for looking that up. Interesting, I never knew some of the babies die in the uterus.


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## Seawatch Stud

What an interesting and informative thread, thanks for sharing this with us. Some of us with many years experience of breeding mice had no idea this was the case. Just goes to show you are never too old to learn something new.


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## Roland

Morena said:


> I asked my friend and it's actually like I thought :
> Some babies die in the uterus, that's why the litters of satin * satin have less babies than in other litters. For the mother there's no danger.
> The babies which are alive aren't less healthy than others.


Sorry, I think this is nonsense. Please tell us good citations, not only the story a friend told you. 
Satin is a recessive trait and therefore has to be homocygotous sa/sa to show up. It does not matter at all, if the sa/sa is the result of breeding Sa/sa x Sa/sa or the result of breeding Sa/sa x sa/sa or the result of breeding sa/sa x sa/sa. 
Any Satin is always sa/sa. Why should some sa/sa die in utero and other sa/sa die not? Do not trust any rumors, just facts. Jax clearly states: "Completely recessive. Homozygotes viable and fertile. Hair texture altered to produce a silky coat with high sheen. Effect is probably on cellular arrangement within each individual hair, rather than changes in distribution of different types of hair. " http://www.informatics.jax.org/searches ... cgi?100484
Again: Nonsense.

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## tipex

Roland.... sie hat es von mir... und ich habe meistens gute Quellen...mach das mal auf Deusch, keine Lust das auf Englisch zu übersetzten..... das ganze hat mit den fork head Gene zutun die man als Fox-Gene („fork head box") bezeichnet.

Und es ist kein Fake... ein Teil von den sa/sa stirbt immer als Embryo ab....... Foxq1/Foxq1 macht das bei gewissen Embryonen der Kopf falsch entwickelt wird.. und diese sind dann nicht überlebensfähig... aber als Züchter merkt man das nicht.. denn die welche es nicht haben sind einwandfrei... bis auf Magenprobleme

Und ich hätte das hier auch gar nicht erzählt... ist und bleibt ein Detail... habe bei uns im Forum intern nur die Falschaussagen von Satin durchgenommen...wie das jetzt wirklich ist.. und warum Satin so schön reflektiert.. ect.... ich hab sogar Bilder von Schnittpräparaten dieser Embryonen... richtig eklig..man sieht es sogar von aussen...so ne zylinderkopfform....aber eben am besten man schreibt darüber jetzt wirklich nichts mehr... ist Detail..

LG tipex

ps: ruhende Hunde soll man schlafen lassen....
pps: Roland deine Quelle ist uralt...1955 ... meine sachen sind vom 2006 LOL


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## Seawatch Stud

Thats easy for you to say!.


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## DomLangowski

tipex said:


> Roland.... sie hat es von mir... und ich habe meistens gute Quellen...mach das mal auf Deusch, keine Lust das auf Englisch zu übersetzten..... das ganze hat mit den fork head Gene zutun die man als Fox-Gene („fork head box") bezeichnet.
> 
> Und es ist kein Fake... ein Teil von den sa/sa stirbt immer als Embryo ab....... Foxq1/Foxq1 macht das bei gewissen Embryonen der Kopf falsch entwickelt wird.. und diese sind dann nicht überlebensfähig... aber als Züchter merkt man das nicht.. denn die welche es nicht haben sind einwandfrei... bis auf Magenprobleme
> 
> Und ich hätte das hier auch gar nicht erzählt... ist und bleibt ein Detail... habe bei uns im Forum intern nur die Falschaussagen von Satin durchgenommen...wie das jetzt wirklich ist.. und warum Satin so schön reflektiert.. ect.... ich hab sogar Bilder von Schnittpräparaten dieser Embryonen... richtig eklig..man sieht es sogar von aussen...so ne zylinderkopfform....aber eben am besten man schreibt darüber jetzt wirklich nichts mehr... ist Detail..
> 
> LG tipex
> 
> ps: ruhende Hunde soll man schlafen lassen....
> pps: Roland deine Quelle ist uralt...1955 ... meine sachen sind vom 2006 LOL


I dont understand that but here is a rough translation

Roland .... she got it from me ... and I'm usually good sources ... make the time to Deusch, no desire that translated to English ..... the whole thing with the fork head genes imitate you as Fox genes ("fork head box) refers.

And it is not fake ... a part of the sa / sa always dies as an embryo from ....... Foxq1/Foxq1 makes some embryos at the head developed is wrong .. And these are not viable ... but as a breeder one does not notice the .. because what they are, have not properly ... except for stomach problems 

And I had not told here ... remains a detail ... We have gone through the forum internally only the false statements of satin ... like this is really now .. Satin reflects so well and why .. ect .... I've even images of thin section of these embryos ... it nasty .. you see it even from the outside ... so ne cylinder head shape .... but it is best to write about it now really nothing more ... Detail is ..

LG tipex

ps: resting dogs should be allowed to sleep ....
pps: Roland your source is very old ... 1955 ... my things are from the 2006 LOL

Please remember this is an English speaking forum, please try to use English where possible.
~ Bitte beachten Sie, das ist eine englischsprachige Forum, bitte versuchen Sie es zu benutzen Englisch sofern möglich.

Thanks


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## Seawatch Stud

Well Im glad we cleared that up then!.


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## Morena

> Roland.... sie hat es von mir... und ich habe meistens gute Quellen...mach das mal auf Deusch, keine Lust das auf Englisch zu übersetzten..... das ganze hat mit den fork head Gene zutun die man als Fox-Gene („fork head box") bezeichnet.
> 
> Und es ist kein Fake... ein Teil von den sa/sa stirbt immer als Embryo ab....... Foxq1/Foxq1 macht das bei gewissen Embryonen der Kopf falsch entwickelt wird.. und diese sind dann nicht überlebensfähig... aber als Züchter merkt man das nicht.. denn die welche es nicht haben sind einwandfrei... bis auf Magenprobleme
> 
> Und ich hätte das hier auch gar nicht erzählt... ist und bleibt ein Detail... habe bei uns im Forum intern nur die Falschaussagen von Satin durchgenommen...wie das jetzt wirklich ist.. und warum Satin so schön reflektiert.. ect.... ich hab sogar Bilder von Schnittpräparaten dieser Embryonen... richtig eklig..man sieht es sogar von aussen...so ne zylinderkopfform....aber eben am besten man schreibt darüber jetzt wirklich nichts mehr... ist Detail..


I try to translate this:
roland, she asked me and my sources are often really good. 
It has to do with the fork head gene, also known as Fox Gene (Fork Head Box).
It isn't a gossip. some of the embryos die in utero, Foxq1/Foxq1 causes a false development of the head that's why the embryos are not capable to live. 
You don't see it in youre litters because they already die in utero.

The source of you Roland is old (1955), my source is from 2006


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## tipex

sorry i was very very sleepy

I had trouble sleeping ... was so .. 3 clock in the morning. The Info is not so importend.. it is very complicated ... even in my language... so forget it.

Satin is good an healty

LG Tipex


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## SiamMeece

Even after breeding satin x satin for generations? Couldn't really extract that from the previous info...


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## neurozool

Yes. From what I can gather, the ones that are born are fine. Any that would have issues die as embryos and are reabsorbed.


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## Roland

neurozool said:


> Yes. From what I can gather, the ones that are born are fine. Any that would have issues die as embryos and are reabsorbed.


What we discuss here is not the question if there could be health problems in sa/sa embryos, the question was a totally different question: Is there a difference in the health of breeding satin x satin or breeding satin x carrier or carrier x carrier. Please do not mix to different questions!

Satins are sa/sa. If some sa/sa have health problems it does not matter at all, if they were bred from Sa/sa x Sa/sa or from sa/sa x sa/sa. The result is absolutely the same: sa/sa

Fazit: It makes no difference if you breed satin x satin or carrier x carrier.

If this is not true, please explain why and show evidence.

Regards, Roland


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## neurozool

I was not mixing questions Roland, I was answering one.

If you breed healthy mice (carriers OR satins) you will get genetically healthy mice. No matter how many satins are in the pedigree. FROM WHAT I GATHER (meaning this may or may not be true) any satins with genetic issues will die before birth- but that is true of most embryos that have severe genetic issues that would not allow life.


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## Roland

neurozool said:


> I was not mixing questions Roland, I was answering one.
> 
> If you breed healthy mice (carriers OR satins) you will get genetically healthy mice. No matter how many satins are in the pedigree. FROM WHAT I GATHER (meaning this may or may not be true) any satins with genetic issues will die before birth- but that is true of most embryos that have severe genetic issues that would not allow life.


Hi Neurozool, I support each single word you wrote. Yes, thats it! But we should explain it a little bit simpler, because the original question and start of the discussion from Charles was the following:

"Since you seem to know so much about satin Morena, do you know if it's ok to breed satin x satin or should satin be bred to a carrier?"

The answer was wrong. 
It does not matter at all, if you breed satin x satin or satin x carrier.

Regards, Roland








(A litter from satin x satin)


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## tipex

You mean that?


> Some babies die in the uterus, that's why the litters of satin * satin have less babies than in other litters.


Yes that is wrong, i think it is a ((thinking errors)) it is not matter what you breed with satin.. a part of sasa embryos are die.. but when she mean with other litters... without Satin.. a normal litter SASA x SASA .... .than it is correct...



> The answer was wrong.
> It does not matter at all, if you breed satin x satin or satin x carrier.


It is only matter for the quote in a litter

sa/sa x sa/sa... you have 100% Satin but 80%-90% do live
Sa/sa x sa/sa....you have 50% Satin but 30%-40% do live
Sa/sa x Sa/sa... you have 25% Satin but 5%-15% do live

So i think it is better to have 100% Satin in the litter...beacause 2-3 die as a embryo...

But when you breed Satin... it is just theory..... realy you don't know that... it is no difference between 10 or 12 puppies..

LG Tipex


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## Jack Garcia

Morena said:


> Satin on black mice is only to recognize by teeth


A trained eye can tell by looking at the belly, ears, and feet, all places where the fur is naturally slightly thinner and satinization will show more easily on a black mouse. I don't know why you'd ever need a black mouse to be satin, though. 

Don't forget that we have satin (Foxq1sa) and then we have satin-like (sal)--http://www.informatics.jax.org/searches/accession_report.cgi?id=MGI:98228.

Both mutations (allegedly) occur in the US. Barb (at another website) has spoken about satin-like before, as have other people I remember. Phenotypically, I don't know how you'd tell the difference.

I personally don't like satin. I wish I could get rid of it.


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## Roland

tipex said:


> It is only matter for the quote in a litter
> 
> sa/sa x sa/sa... you have 100% Satin but 80%-90% do live
> Sa/sa x sa/sa....you have 50% Satin but 30%-40% do live
> Sa/sa x Sa/sa... you have 25% Satin but 5%-15% do live


Sorry, but this is wrong too. 
The numbers are not logical. 
If 80-90% of the sa/sa do live, this means 10-20% of the sa/sa die in utero. Well, I do not know if this is really true, but let us take this as if it would be a fact: 
From SA/sa x sa/sa you get 50% sa/sa, this is correct. But 80-90% from 50% are 40-45%, which will live, not 30-40%, as you have written.
And the next calculation of % is wrong too: If 10-20% of the 25% sa/sa from breeding Sa/sa x Sa/sa die, 20-22,5% will live. and not only 5-15% as you have written.

So the correct numbers would be the following:
sa/sa x sa/sa... you have 100% Satin but 80%-90% do live
Sa/sa x sa/sa....you have 50% Satin but 40%-45% do live
Sa/sa x Sa/sa... you have 25% Satin but 20%-22,5% do live

Probably it was late at night, when you calculated the numbers :lol: 
Best regards, Roland


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## Morena

Does it matter? don't think so....


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## Roland

Morena said:


> Does it matter? don't think so....


Yes it does. The rumors that it is better to breed satin to satin-carriers instead of satin x satin are nonsense. And nonsense about mouse breeding should be corrected in a mouse forum.

Take it easy, best regards, Roland


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## SiamMeece

Roland said:


> Morena said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does it matter? don't think so....
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it does. The rumors that it is better to breed satin to satin-carriers instead of satin x satin are nonsense. And nonsense about mouse breeding should be corrected in a mouse forum.
> 
> Take it easy, best regards, Roland
Click to expand...

I agree. On one of the Dutch forums it's taken for an absolute truth that one shouldn't breed satin x satin. A friend of mine started a discussion and put a link in her post to Finnmouse's website, where it's even recommended to breed satin x satin if you breed for colour. Nobody bothered to check so outdated ideas about satin are still commonplace on that forum. So I really appreciate the turn this discussion took and people willing to give their input


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## Morena

> Does it matter? don't think so....
> 
> Yes it does. The rumors that it is better to breed satin to satin-carriers instead of satin x satin are nonsense. And nonsense about mouse breeding should be corrected in a mouse forum.


I did'nt ment the "rumour", I ment your maths.


> The numbers are not logical. If 80-90% of the sa/sa do live, this means 10-20% of the sa/sa die in utero. Well, I do not know if this is really true, but let us take this as if it would be a fact:
> From SA/sa x sa/sa you get 50% sa/sa, this is correct. But 80-90% from 50% are 40-45%, which will live, not 30-40%, as you have written.
> And the next calculation of % is wrong too: If 10-20% of the 25% sa/sa from breeding Sa/sa x Sa/sa die, 20-22,5% will live. and not only 5-15% as you have written.


It doesn't matter at all how you count, if you count 35% or 45% or whatever.
You know it yourself that you cannot count like that. Even if there's a possibility of 50% satin there could also be only one satin mouse and the rest without satin or all could be satin or without satin. Only by sasa * sasa you can be sure that you've got 100% satin in the litter.

My answer wasn't wrong Roland. You are really fast in showing "mistakes" to other people, like you would never do mistakes and know everything.... 
that was my answer:


> My experience has shown that the number of babies of satin * satin were often smaller then others, maybe some babies already die in the uterus or after birth and the mother ate them. Because of this and also because I don't want to have satin only, I mostly set up pairs satin * satin carrier. But the remaining Babies of Satin * Satin, so my experience, aren't less healthy than babies of satin * satin carrier.


Where did I write that sasa * sasa would be bad? Did you see the word mostly? That means that I don't always breed sasa * sasa but I do it sometimes.
I only told what's fact, but I didn't tell that sasa * sasa would be bad.
No one told here that you shouldn't breed sasa * sasa or that it would be bad to breed like that. We only told that litters of sasa * sasa will be smaller than other ones, that's all, and that's a fact. Take it or leave it.
But that doesn't mean that it is a problem to breed sasa * sasa. The living babies aren't less healthier than others.
And tipex told the same thing: It only does matter to the number of babies you got in a litter. If you want bigger litters it would be better to breed sasa * Sasa, if you want more satins it would be better to breed sasa * sasa.
It depends on what you want. That's your own decision.

I breed mostly (not only) sasa * Sasa, but only because I want bigger litters and I don't want only satin in my litters, not because I think it is bad. It is more special to me when I got some Satins and some without satin. It's not my goal to have satins only, that would be boring to me.
But that's the thing I do. Everyone should breed like he thinks it's right, I don't tell you what to do , I only tell what I do.


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## Morena

> A trained eye can tell by looking at the belly, ears, and feet, all places where the fur is naturally slightly thinner and satinization will show more easily on a black mouse. I don't know why you'd ever need a black mouse to be satin, though.


Thank you, I will have an eye on it, didn't know this 
It's not my intention to breed black satin, it is random that some are satin. I began with Blue Satin * Black and there where always carriers.
You're right, it wouldn't make sense to breed black satin


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## Roland

Morena said:


> I did'nt ment the "rumour", I ment your maths.
> It doesn't matter at all how you count, if you count 35% or 45% or whatever.
> You know it yourself that you cannot count like that. Even if there's a possibility of 50% satin there could also be only one satin mouse and the rest without satin or all could be satin or without satin.


Dear Monica, it is a banal cognition that the Mendelian percentages are statistics only and not valid for a single litter. How could there be 50% satins in a litter of 3 babies ?







The same is true for the litter size itself, it depends on many factors, I had litters with 17 satin babies, see picture posted in this thread. If you have small litters from breeding satin x satin it is your individual problem and no general rule.

If we talk about Mendelian percentages, we should cite them correctly eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mende ... itance.svg and should not use fantasy numbers, which are wrong.
You just get twice as much recessive phenotypes if you breed homocygotous x homocygotous as if you breed homocygotous x heterocygotous (carrier). If you want even less satins, there is a very simple way: Just breed Sa/Sa x Sa/Sa and I give you a guarantee that you will get a really small number of satins :mrgreen:

The discussion was worthful nevertheless, since now we all agree that it makes no difference to breed satin x satin or satin x carrier, if we go for satins. This is a good result of the discussion, just as Charles has written.

Best regards, Roland


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## Morena

I made a pic of a mouse without satin:


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## SarahC

oh yes  wow.


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## Roland

Hi Monica,

fantastic photo again. This is a smoker mouse, right?























Best regards, Roland


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## SiamMeece

Owww....I always thought my hair was satin because it's so shiny, but my teeth are the same colour.... :?


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## Morena

> This is a smoker mouse, right?


lool, sure, 40 Cigarettes a day. a really hard smoker

Here both pics together:


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## Rhasputin

Morena, can I save your picture for use later on? Only to show people, if someone is asking a question. 
Not to claim it as mine.

Also, where do you find cigarettes small enough for mice?
Or do they use mini hookahs? :lol:


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## Roland

Rhasputin said:


> Also, where do you find cigarettes small enough for mice?
> Or do they use mini hookahs? :lol:


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## Autumn2005

Wow, what a difference! I have to ask... how did you get the teeth pictures? Before seeing this I'd have thought it was impossible! Must be before breakfast...


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## Rhasputin

Thanks for answering my question Roland! :lol: :lol:


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## Morena

My friend was holding the mouse while I took the pic , but it wasn't easy


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## Morena

> Morena, can I save your picture for use later on? Only to show people, if someone is asking a question.
> Not to claim it as mine.


No Problem, You can use this pic









or this one









those pics you can use for your homepage too if you like


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## Rhasputin

Excellent! Very educational!


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## Mymouse

WOW, I did not realize it was this much diffirent! I know then that my wild mouse mix is satin, she was gnawing on the bars of the top of her cage and she has shiny white teeth :mrgreen: and a very shiny coat of course, even on the belly


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