# Herefords with poor markings?



## Rhasputin

I'm wondering if there is a specific look to herefords if they end up with poor markings. Are there any? 

I was wondering if it was anything like banded, sometimes causing distinctly similar headspots and such?
I have some mice, that are 'broken marked', but I think that two of them (related) are poor bandeds with headspots, and that 4 or 5 of them (related, but not to the other two) look more like herefords, with a band trying to form.

I don't know, I guess I'l making connections and getting curious. :lol:


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## WNTMousery

It is unlikely that you have herefords.


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## Rhasputin

Well yes. I know it's very un-likely. And I almost deffinately don't. :roll: 
But what I'm asking is, what's a common fault mark (if any) on a hereford?

I also wonder if it's possible to breed mice that look hereford, even though they aren't. I have a bunch of broken brindles, that all come out with almost the same broken patterns. White triangle on face (like herefords) white line on the stomach, almost always with a small piece that comes up (like a belt but not quite), and a small spot of white on the shoulders. I have some that look like collared gerbils too, which is neat, almost like a dutch brindle.

I am 99.999999% sure I don't have herefords, like I said. But I'm just asking questions.


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## windyhill

I have a broken marked doe who has the markings of a hereford, but she is just broken marked. 
You can breed broken marked mice that look like herefords, but it will take a long time to get the markings right.


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## Rhasputin

Awesome.  
I'd love to see pictures of her.


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## windyhill

I'll have to see if i can find more pictures:









She has the correct marking on her belly as well


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## Rhasputin

Oh yes! How cute!


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## WillowDragon

Herefords when bred to standard don't just have the head blaze, they also have to have a belly stripe too, like a berks marking. Not sure about white feet though...

W xx


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## Rhasputin

I understand they have the head marking, white feet, and a white stripe on their bellies.


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## windyhill

The AFRMA standard calls for: White blaze,white feet, white tail tip & white belly marking


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## Jack Garcia

Every hereford I've ever seen has been tiny. Not just small like is common to most marked varieties, but even smaller than that. This is one fault, though not related to color or markings per se.


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## WillowDragon

I think Herefords and Dutch are the smallest show mice I have ever seen... even smaller than the smallest pet mouse I have ever had LOL

At the last show I went to, one of the breeders remarked that despite the fact he had been purposely breeding for both markings and size in his dutch for a long time, they had not really gotten any bigger... he remarked that it was like they were a different 'breed'

W xx


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## Jack Garcia

If any mice could be considered a different breed in the sense that dogs and cats (and rabbits) have breeds, I think Dutch would be the best contender.


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## nuedaimice

Isn't Hereford just mice with the Irish Spotting gene selectively bred to look a certain way? We have the Irish Spotting gene running rampant in the U.S. Fancy (I've owned it many, many times from several sources including breeders and pet stores).

If its just Irish Spotting, why couldn't someone take their s^i mice and breed them to look like Hereford?


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## Rhasputin

Irish spotting? What exactly does that refer to?


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## WNTMousery

"Irish" is the term for a specific modifier that causes head spots, mostly.


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## Rhasputin

Ooooh. Okay. Isn't there one in rats that's also describes something similar?


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## nuedaimice

http://littlerodent.tripod.com/id12.html

There is some information here on it... There are lots of sites that discuss it, but few that discuss it specifically for mice. Most of them are for cows, rats, and dogs. The gene seems to be the same in most situations (there is still debate on the dogs).

This is the gene that causes the recessive white spotting (piebald, if you will, although piebald is actually a modifier s^p) we see on most of the mice in the fancy:


> http://www.informatics.jax.org/javawi2/servlet/WIFetch?page=markerDetail&key=18673


I have had mice that were Irish Spotted (proven with test matings) that had white markings from a headspot, white feet, white belly, half white tail to a full white collar and blaze, white stockings, white belly, and half white tail.


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## Jack Garcia

Well, yes and no (and maybe, lol). There's one person in England (whose name unfortunately escapes me) who I talked to last year who insists that both hereford and Dutch are separate alleles from (though maybe related to) recessive white spotting. He observed that if he crosses a Dutch to a self, he gets (poorly-marked) Dutch in the first back-cross to the Dutch parent.

What I suspect might have happened is that both Dutch and hereford are variations on recessive white spotting but that, over time, somewhere, many or all of the modifiers have become linked and are inherited together usually, which would cause (poor) Dutch mice in the second generation after an outcross.

This is my own theory, though DNA testing could prove it one way or the other, if anybody wanted to test it.


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## windyhill

I bred my "hereford" marked doe to another chocolate and got all chocolate selves, and havnt tried breeding the babies yet.
I no longer have the doe, otherise I would of bred a son back to her.


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## nuedaimice

There are 3 variations (in dogs) on the "S Locus"

s^p which makes piebald, which would resemble our piebald, broken, and even marked mice.
s^i which makes the Irish pattern seen on Aussies, Border Collies, etc. This could easily be bred to resemble Hereford.
s^w which is usually a head marking on each side of the face (over both the eye and ear) and a rump marking, which does resemble the dutch mouse.

Any one of these could be present on the S Locus either together, or paired with another gene from the locus (s^p/s^i or s^p/s^w).

It may very well be the same for mice.


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## Jack Garcia

We know for sure that white mouse markings occur on the Bt, W, Rw, and S loci, so it wouldn't surprise me if Dutch and/or hereford occurred on any of those, or on another locus entirely, assuming they're not identical or related to s/s, as they may be.


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## Rhasputin

I'm pretty sure Roland was talking about a study that showed that hereford was it's own locus.


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## Jack Garcia

I remember that. Hmm...I found whatever he was saying to be confusing, though, to be honest.


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## Rhasputin

Well with the slight language barrier and the complex genetics, I have no idea either. :lol:


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## Jack Garcia

I love Roland. I've spoken with him on the phone and we have many of the same friends "in real life," and many of the same interests, but I must say between my strong Southern accent and his German one, communication can be difficult.  He's a great guy, though.


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## tipex

Hello

i am a hereford breeder&#8230; and I also breed sib. husky&#8230; the big problem is between the mice and dogs genetic&#8230;.. is not the same bat it have a lot of similar alleles&#8230; The big problem is the Nomenclature! You find a lot variety for the dogs and a lot of gen aren't found in dog&#8230; but it exist! but not found now. So is not good to cross the information's of dog genetics and mice genetics&#8230; a example: the most black dog are Ky and not aa! So the black dogs are dominant black and not recessive black.

I have a lot of examples&#8230;but jack say correctly it's very heavy to discuss in other language about Genetics.

Back to Hereford&#8230; Hereford is a own gen. Allele is wn/wn&#8230;it means white nose&#8230;. 
so why it have Hereford with small or incorrectly Forms? Because you have a lot of other alleles how works co-dominant or intermediary white the wn/wn&#8230; for example te/te&#8230; it means light head (this gen make blezzed or head points/lines)

So the herefordbreeder must look that he isolate the wn/wn from the other gens&#8230; that is not so easy..because when you take a normal self mouse the have a lot of modification (TE/te. or Ss or..) so you must breed very carefully &#8230;. I think that is also the declared why the typ is so small and little. Because is not good for the Hereford to make a lot of Lines out cross&#8230;

I hope you understand what I want to tell you

regards tipex


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## Jack Garcia

Thanks, Silvia. That makes sense.

Also, I've found this page, which contends (as do you and other hereford breeders) that hereford is not a part of the "s-series" of mouse mutations at all:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/tbde3n3e5e8xxa3c/

Likening mouse genetics to dog genetics can be helpful, but only up to a point, as we've seen!


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## nuedaimice

Right, as I said it may be the same. There is no way to say for sure. I still feel, though, judging by many, many photos I've seen where an Irish Spotted mouse was bred to resemble a hereford, that its very possible to breed a hereford to standard using those genes.

As anyone knows, breeding to standard is not ALWAYS using the same genes. For example, while its true that Silver is genetically aa/dd/pp, we all know that you can get a less mealy coat by breeding aa/pp to resemble Silver.

If breeding s^i/s^i gets you a hereford looking mouse with better type, then why not do it? And how will anyone ever know if it would be better or worse if no one ever tries it or everyone tells them not to because its the wrong gene?

If no one ever tried anything different or tried to breed a better mouse to meet the standard using the different genes from those everyone else used, then all of our cream mice would still be Ay based.


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## tipex

nuedaimice: Look you have only tow Pigments the Phäomelanin and the Eumelanin... all colors that you see is only from this tow Pigments... or when this tow color are off.. it make white.... So the gen it give only the information which pigment it produce and how portion..... The Nomenclature an attempt to organize it .... mostly you have a Protein in back from a Nomenclature...

so i will make a example.... Blue... the Nomenclature is dd for blue...(in mice and dogs) but correctly it is the Myo5a protein..so you must correctly read...Myo5a/Myo5a... but that is not breeding frendly i think... dd it is easyer... but when you see a blue dog... mostly it is not a Myo5/Myo5a ... but it look same like a mice how is blue...

a lot of dogs have Mlph/Mlph so you see the same color it showing...but it is a different information/mutation/synthes for show this colors...

Or other example...the Ay and ee .... it make the same color...but Ay have healty problems..(because the synthese way it is difference to ee)

Interesting to see that a lot of breeder have only interesting of the colors...but no interesting what is the process .... that's all chemistry....Enzymes that are defective also have impacts on other chemical processes ..Dopamin...it have a lot of other works ...not only for the Pigments... I know that is a high level...and it is very heavy to explain in a other language...it hope you will understand what i will explain

regards Tipex


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## Jack Garcia

tipex said:


> Interesting to see that a lot of breeder have only interesting of the colors...but no interesting what is the process ....


I agree that it is interesting that a lot of breeders have interest in the colors themselves but don't bother to understand how they actually come about. To be fair, you don't need to know how pigment is formed on the molecular level to breed winning mice, but it _does_ help. It's easy to draw parallels with dogs, and very helpful at times, but it doesn't always correlate directly. At least, I think that's what you mean...hehe. 

I think the pheomelanins you're talking about are largely absent in US mice, whether tan, red, or argente. That's one reason I imported the Ay/A mice: so that more people could have access to the modifiers which make red fur red instead of yellow. One person is trying to improve the red on black tans by outcrossing to an agouti from the reds (who presumably has all the same pheomelanin modifiers), and then back-crossing, keeping only the tan babies from each pairing. It will be interesting to see the results and I will make her post pictures.


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## tipex

Thanks Jack...you understand what i will say In a very nice english



> I think the pheomelanins you're talking about are largely absent in US mice, whether tan, red, or argente


. That is interesting... but it is not a problem of the Pheomelanins  It is a problem that breeders don't make breeding They don't understand how to construct a Linie... there exist genes that are better or worse for the red colors are...

When you would to have a nice blue... and you breed the blue with black.....so you have very dark blue ... or with brown you have a mealy blue mouse... it is better to breed with colors that are compatible

Ay are so red because they are breeding with brown... But you can that make also with the ee mice...no problem... mice have a high reproduction rate...

But show me the pics...it would be interesting to see... and have you also cinnamon?

PS: The Tan it is not reaction with the coat color.. it is a other modification how make it red! exception is blue (dd) he makes mealy tan. ...You can make very firy red tan .... you see a good tan in a self, when they have a red ass.

tipex


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## Jack Garcia

I know. Maybe I'm being too generous with American breeders.  What I meant was that if you have a poor tan (at/at for example) and you breed it consistently with a good red (Ay/A), you will improve the red bellies significantly because the modifiers for red fur are already there.

It's a shame that so many people don't know (or don't care) about the proper way to make varieties look their best! Sometimes it is a matter of not having the resources and that's understandable, but all too often people _do_ have the resources and they choose to ruin their mice by crossing varieties which should never be crossed. The damage done is much harder to reverse than it is to cause.

For example, this is a picture of a white-bellied chinchilla (genotype: Aw/aw cch/c U/u) who was crossed to a himalayan a few generations ago:










He is the closest thing to "pet-typed" that I have, and he has produced babies of vastly different quality due to his mixed-ancestry. If his great great grandmother (from a respected English chinchilla breeder) had never been bred to a US petstore mouse, he could have been a stellar example of chinchilla. As it is now, I am working on improving his descendants' type as well as solidifying a line of true-breeding mice who are Aw/Aw cch/cch Fz/Fz u/u. It will take me at least three or four more years to come close to this goal, yet it only took one night of mouse passion (and one bad decision from a breeder) to lead to this! Very frustrating!

Ok, I'm done preaching to the choir! :lol:


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## WNTMousery

Thank you Tipex for your posts! Very informative.


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## Rhasputin

Ohhhh I'm pretty sure I've just recieved a legitimate hereford mouse. It looks very different (even though the markings are in the same places) than my mice with 'hereford-like markings'. The stomach is the most noticeable difference, and the feet are very specifically marked as well . . .

Unfortunately for me, it's a fuzzy, :lol: 
I do love fuzzies, but I wish I had a standard hereford.
I'll be able to post pictures on Monday when I can borrow my mom's camera..


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## SarahC

I don't know any thing about Hereford genetics but I can tell you that they have a humble background,no fancy breeding program as such.They simply cropped up in a feeder breeder colony by chance,that breeder shared some photos with a mouse club member.That member liked them,took a few on and set about establishing them as a new variety.All the ones I have handled have been of decent size,not at all like the dutch.Over here red,black and chocolate are the most common colours.


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## ian

I picked up some herefords on Saturday, had previously tried with them last year and failed miserably. I googled hereford genetics and this thread popped up (I should always look here first!).

The ones I picked up are a black trio. I have produced a few random brokens recently some of which have hereford facemarkings, others with rectangular belly marings and some with stops on the tail or white feet. None have all the appropriate hereford markings on the same mouse.

I want to just confrim a few things the hereford gene is known as w/n w/n meaning its a simple recessive gene? Infact it may not really be 'a gene' but a bundle of genes and modifyers?


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## WNTMousery

Why were there posts from this thread removed? Anyone know? I specifically remember a few posts that were in this thread that are now gone.


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## Rhasputin

I hadn't noticed. I have no idea.


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## Jack Garcia

I hadn't noticed either. Hmm...


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## windyhill

I noticed that, but I thought I was just losing my mind,lol


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## Jack Garcia

Did you check under the couch cushion? When I lose my mind, that's usually where it is.


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## ian

Can I just bump this. Ive got loads more of these non-hereford hereford-looking mice.


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## Rhasputin

Sure can! I plan on getting some pictures of my new fuzzy boy. And he's a text book hereford, from non-hereford lines! He's from banded mice. He has white feet, white belly, white tail, and is black all over except for a teenie tiny spot on his butt.


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## RAP

I have just come across this and the post has called my name. We dont have Hereford mice in Australia although look a likes are out there for example AW Dahla when she was a baby










and I currently bred her to another simalar face marking buck and Dahlia had a marked black and white with a tan/white marked belly and the othere was a black headspot actually 3 one on his face one on neck and the other on her back also a berkshire belly white markings.(could also be a irish spotted).

I will get photos of everyone if interested. I am trying to breed the face markings like the hereford.

Some help would be awsome


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## Rhasputin

Well, a hereford mouse has a white face, white feet, a white tummy, and often a white tail. 
So the 'berkshire' markings, makes it even more hereford-like!


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## RAP

The one with the marked belly has the headspots but not the face markings....... I need some help with working out who to breed the kids back to. I was told to breed the belly marked berkshire to a belly spot and minimal marked tailed boys???does that sound like a right Idea? or breed them back to the father because really neither did they get really the face markings I was looking for.


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## ian

I've done some test breeding with my 'proper' hereford buck to an unmarked doe, which has so far produced 12 babies, 11 of which had hereford markings and one self (not even white hairs!). So I have to assume because of the self that my hereford buck is a heterozygous hereford and that hereford is dominant.

I read on this thread that crossing herefords to other lines is bad for the variety which has resulted in them being small, mine are not that small but they dont have the type, particularly the glossy sheen to their coats that other dark show types do. The out crossed babies look great and healthy, the face markings are not broad enough however my hereford x hereford babies have resulted in some babies with really too wide face markings some going down onto the shoulder.


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## tipex

ne Hereford puppies

















lg Tipex


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## Rhasputin

Those are such beauties!

I wish I could get my paws on some!


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## tipex

half face... it better i link this here... ... a very special in a hereford litter...

LG Tipex


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## Seawatch Stud

As with many varieties, English fanciers, most of whom know next to nothing about genetics, have radically improved (through selection and good stockmanship) the Hereford in recent years. They now achieve decent size and type, and are even starting to win in the marked section at shows. They are not like Dutch in any way. Here is the standard as laid down by the NMC.
Eye colour to be as in standard variety. The body colour shall be that of any standardised colour. The face shall be white, extending to a V shape which terminates just beyond the line of the ears, the white going under the chin and be clean cut, but not extending down the throat. The ears and tail shall be of the standardised colour with the latter half of the tail being white. The belly shall have a uniform white marking, starting between the front legs and ending at the vent with the white not to extend up the sides of the body or down the legs. The feet shall be white. Any other markings on the top shall be considered a fault. The white areas shall be pure and devoid of any colour or staining. This is more inline with the breed of cattle and less like the self coloured mouse with a white face and feet. The belly mark is generally thought to be best as a rectangle shaped bar or line starting between the front legs and ending at the vent.....Phew, thought that was never gonna end!!. What a clumsily worded standard!


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## tipex

Hi Seawatch stud....

So you have breeder in the NMC how have Hereford?.... And go to Show.? Have you a link to this breeders?.. oder Pic.... 
and this is good standard.... clear explain... lg tipex


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## tipex

the belly marks have you gat a pic from this explain?... I don't understand it...

I look that the belly don't have a lot of marks...


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## RAP

Because we dont have true hereford mice in Australia I am currently trying to start a program and breed some herefords.

At the moment they are mismarked and ramdonly seem to pop in marked litters you are lucky to get two in a litter. Tommorrow I will get a photo of the herefords I have. I currently have paired two females which are due to drop any day. 1xBlack less marked female with a belly spot and tail mark to a Hereford looking boy. and 2x hereford female to a less marked male belly and tail spot.

I am experimenting really.

I will take photos tomorow and you.


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