# moustress' update



## moustress

It's busy time of year, so I'll be brief.

I 'reverse engineered' a litter to get contrast back in the beige to black tris:



I bred my oldest buck, Diamond Stud 3 yrs. old to a young tri doe in order to inject a little health and longevity in the line.:



Royal and Regal, two yellow tri bucks had litters in the last couple of months. Royal was paired with Rosegold, who died when the litter was just about three weeks old. Old enough to be eating solid food, but a little young to be without a mother. Here's Royal with his boys:





And the girls with a couple of aunties selected to give them a little mothering:





Another litter off of Golden Boy, who is a champion stud muffin of a mousie, and Popeye, a one-eyed yellow splashed doe:





That's about it for now; I took new pix last night, but didn't bring the camera downstairs so they will have to wait until tomorrow.


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## julieszoo

The markings on that first litter are stunning. 3 years is a fantastic age too! So pleased Rosegold's bubs have grown up well for you


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## moustress

Thanks, Julie. I love the little satin creams as it's one of those subtle colors that, when splashed, does'nt show well except in satin. Yeah, that first one of the boldly marked tris worked pretty well. As far as size goes, these are alll small compared to most show meeces, for the most part. But size is something that's not stressed as much in US shows; it's the proportions of the mousie that considered important. There are a few folks here who are trying for mini-mousies with the proportions of show mice. I don't trend to either end of the size concept. Some of my most prized tris are relatively small, but health is the thing that I quest for. the black and white babies in that tri litter you like are really gorgeous, and they carry tri (I wish I could come up with a better name, genie doesn't quite cut it; demon fits better, but is kinda negative) I'm looking forward to the litters I should get off of Nibbles and the two beige marked does he's been paired with. These litters may not happen, if I'm right about the markings indicating the defect these tris were designed to test for.

There is still a lot of debate about just what the transgenic factor is and how it works. The Finns think it's a gene called flecked that has been available to breeders for several decades. At the same time, they insist that my tris must be the result of two different genetic manipulations. That is something I could easily believe after dealing with this line for a few years. Jack Garcia got the tri gene(s) slipped in unexpectedly in the trade or purchase, and isn't at all happy about it at all. I can sympathize with him; I really think that someone decided to throw a whole raft of things in the blender just to see what would happen. (heehee...and you KNOW I just loved {Pinky and the Brain)

Manipulating genes is becoming almost commonplace these days. It's a brand new world for those who want to learn how to do these things, and you know that somewhere there are true Mad Scientists with equipment in their livings rooms cooking up all kinds of surprising genetic soups. It gives one pause, and sometimes keeps one awake at night, thinking about higher education and sources of funding....but now the procedures are simplified enough by automation that even someone like me, who only has a degree in math and computer science, might be able to do something meaningful and interesting.


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## Bryana

That litter of tris (first picture) is amazing! I would be sooo proud of those if I were you  What do you plan on doing with them?


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## moustress

Thanks, Bryana.

We have no club within driving distance, and no breeders that I know of. (The pet stores won't give me the names and addresses of their sources) So I just breed for enjoyment and edification. I'd love to place some of my tris with other breeders so I'd have someone to commiserate with about the phenomenon. One thing about the transgenic meeces is that it's hard to predict (nearly impossible) what the litters are going to look like. I have gotten to the the point where I sort of know what I'm doing with the beige/brown/black tris and I think I have a clue or two about what's going on with the yellow/orange/red ones. Other breeders who have the same type of transgenics as I do have different ideas than mine, and who knows what will happen in the future.

It's been educational that's for sure.


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## moustress

I've decided to have just one thread for my meeces who are no longer babies.

These are Royal and Rosegold's girls. They are both satin yellows and they both carry tri/transgenic. these little girls are about six or seven weeks old now.











The larger meeces are two yellow marked splashed tri does who becamse aunties after Rosegold died when her litter was only three weeks old. All the kids are doing fine, i'm happy to say.

And I got distracted; I :arrow: meant to put this in New and Existing meeces.


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## moustress

Shirley and Adamant have a new litter of one dozen, born sometime Saturday evening. They're are just starting to show signs of markings at four days old. They have their older sisters to help take care of them, and announced their vigor and good health by eeking loudly as I entered the mousery in the wee hours of Sunday morning. The older girls include two very nicely marked tris, the other two are B & W like Shirley


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## moustress

Here's the pile of eight days old babies from Shirley and Adamant. Seven out of the twelve have tri markings.


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## julieszoo

Those are fabulous! Are you starting to see a higher proportion of the tri's in your litters now, or is it still very variable?


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## moustress

When I started, I had just the one tri, a doe, who had been bred to a very bold tri before she was brought to me. Only two of that first litter showed tri markings. In the three and a half years I've been breeding tris since then, I've experimented with all the c locus dilutions to see what came of it. Now I'm moving back towards the original type which is the beige to black tris you see in this litter. There was only one litter in those three years where all the offspring had bold tri markings. Some of the chinchilla and siamese based litters have all had tri markings. This litter and the first litter off the same meeces were intended to bring back the beige to black on white. It seems to have worked well enough. I have been working on the assumption that the tri factor operates as a single factor dependent on a dilution in the c-locus. The markings types do affect the appearance of the mouse as far as facilitating the pooling of individual hues, with a dominant marking pattern providing the best in pooling and isolation of patches of color. I also seem to be getting some interesting patches of color on color in these two litters.

And I'm still pedaling furiously to discover the manner in which these tris were created. Most recently I've been looking at material about Cattanach's Translocation. I'm still not convinced that there is only one genetic manipulation at work here. I'm starting to wonder if there is an element of the process that causes expression in stages that show up in succession in each generation, and what I've read about Cattanach's Translocation seem to provide some support for that idea.


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## moustress

New pix of the Dinky Dozen at 10 days old:


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## WillowDragon

Ooo... I love that mousie on the top of the pile in the first picture!!

Willow xx


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## moustress

Yeah, Willow, he's the pick of the litter (actually haven't checked the sexes yet) for sure! Best markings, nicest tail, biggest overall. I'm hoping it's a boy. Even his feet are big!


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## julieszoo

They are great - keep up updated as they develop


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## moustress

Thanks so much, juliezoo. Sometimes I feel like I'm creeping along in the dark when breeding the tris if only because I really don't quite know what to expect from each successive litter. I do understand the reservations that some folks have voiced about breeding from this line. I really love the black and white babies in this litter as well as the tri marked ones. I'd like to be able to explain the genetics of the ones that show color on color. But at least I have guessed right with this pairing and produced a litter with a significant proportion of boldly marked tri babies.

I hope to get these darlings sexed in the next couple of days.


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## moustress

The eyes on these little bitties have opened; I wish this pairing had produced bigger babies. But the markings on the seven tris are exactly what I was aiming for. Size is one of the easier things to correct given enough time. The older sisters are looking good as well. The solid patches of color on color have appeared again in this litter which is interesting and puzzling.


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## Toast

Wittle cooties. So awdorable *Quits baby talk* They are such nice colors


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## moustress

No cooties!! No cooties!! *moustress runs to check*

Aw, dem widdle biddle mousie wousies gotz no cooties at all. *good* *whew*


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## moustress

Here are the boys from Diamond Stud and Sapphire's pairing. I really like the facial markings. The doe is a marked ticked carrying c^h so the darker pigments tend to get concentrated in the areas that the points on a Himi or Siamese would be, but altered and varying greatly. These boys are very friendly and swarm me whenever open their tank. They are about nine weeks old.













A litter off of a couple of meeces from my argent /tri attempts are about 10 days now. Sandy, the buck is an umbrous yellow who developed dark patches on his head and rump overnight. Puzzling, but this seems to happen most frequently with umbrous yellow meeces. Sylphia is PEW with moderately long lush hair that is so soft to the touch. they are both smallish meeces, so I'm pleasantly surprised at the size of the babies.









And lastly a young doe from a fawn litter whose color is diluted to a shade never before seen in my mousery and I am at a loss as to what to call it. Is she a red-eyed cream? I think the color is a little too dark for that, but she is a satin, which does deepen the appearance of colors.





Here she is behind mom and a couple of sisters who are the expected shade for all of them. Mom is a stunner for color; I don't think fawn can get any more vivid and bright.


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## julieszoo

All so pretty, I do love those fawn satins especially


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## moustress

Thanks, j. It's nice to get some feedback; I realize that many of the show breeders aren't that interested in meeces that won't produce in a predictable manner, such as the transgenics lines I work with. The fawn satins are a source of great joy to me. I am concerned about the paler individuals in the fawn line like the one I posted; last night a young buck from that same litter with the same dilution was found dead, and these these girls are considerably smaller than their fully colored sisters. I'd love to have red eyed creams if I can breed healthy ones.


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## Cait

Are the 'fawns' actually RY? I ask this because our fawns are Ay (dominant yellow) and I'm interested to know if you can get identical looking mice using the different genes, and if so what the advantages and disadvantages of each are. For example Ay fawns tend to get obese and need to be bred younger to help guarantee fertility. They also have smaller litters due to the homozygous lethal nature of the gene. But they can also produce showable mice of complimentary colours (e.g. agouti, cinnamon and red) in the same litter as fawns, which is a bonus for those who want more than one variety but a readily available outcross and perhaps fewer cages of mice.


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## Jack Garcia

It is possible to use recessive red (e/e), also known as recessive yellow, to produce identical-looking fawns without the obesity and cancer associated with Ay. Dr. Roland Fisher in Germany is currently doing this. He's the only person in Europe who has recessive red.

However, in the US very, very few breeders breed red (of any sort) to standard and linebreed appropriately to insure you don't get recessives you don't want (such as blue, or fuzzy, or merle, or whatever). Most reds in the US (including mousetress's probably) have ancestors who were incompatible in terms of color.


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## moustress

My yellows and reds are mostly A^vy; it took awhile to remove the brindling from the line, like 7 or 8 years. (I wouldn't be surprised to see brindling appear again as it is nearly impossible to eliminate entirely.) I also have recessive yellow as well; the colors are somewhat different for those, usually starting out umbrous but clearing by four months old. A fellow breeder on the PetRodents forum sent me a doe who was recessive yellow without telling me it also carried the transgenic element!) My yellow/red transgenic line has both types mixed in and I see yet again another sort of yellow/red that is hard to display in a picture, as the difference is pretty subtle; a sort of pinkish rosiness.

It has been about two years since I started another line of yellows/reds that combined both types without involving the transgenic element, and those meeces are very large, with big eyes, and odd coats that are wooly almost to the extent of being frizzy. I'll have to take a few pix to illustrate. Mondo the Huge Red deserves to be seen as does his sis, Big Red. They are both a deep almost harvest golden orange with big black eyes.

I adore red and yellow meeces in all their types but I'm glad not to have the lethal type to contend with. Fatties make nice handwarmers when it's as cold as it is in these parts currently.


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## Jack Garcia

In US petstores and hobby breeders, it's also not uncommon to find mice who are both Avy/* and e/e (i.e. mice who are brindle AND recessive red). Since both can produce solid red mice (brindle with associated potential weight and fertility problems, recessive red without them), it's sometimes difficult to tell which you have without careful breeding.

A mouse I bought a few years ago was like this. I thought she was simply Avy without stripes at first because when bred to an agouti she produced striped and stripeless Avy brindles, but when two of her chocolate self babies were bredm they also produced more red mice, which let me know that the original mouse was brindle (Avy) and the reason her stripes didn't show at all was because she was also recessive red (e/e). Pink-eyed dilution (p/p) and chocolate (b/b) can make these mice look even redder.


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## moustress

Good info, Jack thanks!


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## moustress

These little cuties are five weeks old now; gonna have to rehouse them tonight. Here are the pix I took last night/ There are now only nine of the dozen still living, as one of the little weirdos managed to get himself wedged in the water bottle holder and apparently hung itself. Very sad. why does it seem that is it always the nicest one of the litter that dies. *sigh*



This mousie has gotten it's full coat in, and right now is more hair than mouse.


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## SarahC

they are very attractive indeed :mrgreen:


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## Jammy

Oooooooooh i sooo want that fluffy long haired cutey yum yum yum


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## moustress

Thanks Sarah!

Jammy, I agree most slurpledly! Yummers! That long hair, along with the mottling is very delicious!

These started out looking very, very tiny and too red at birth, so I'm very happy they have causght up so well. Adamant, the sire is a good size for a tri, as well as having just about the perfect markings, and is now paired with two B & W does from the first litter he and Shirley produced. The little hermaphrodite that I had put with Adamant is bunking solo; meanwhile the young doe I placed with Nibbles less than a week ago is looking very advanced in a pregnancy, so it looks like the little weirdo got to her before he was removed from the tank.


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## SarahC

moustress said:


> That long hair, along with the mottling is very delicious!
> 
> .


that one reminds me of a yorkshire terrier,the blend of colours and hair style give the impression of a yorkie.


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## moustress

That's something I'd have never taken notice of; you are right, a little frizz and a wave, and it'd be just like that!


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## Raindropmousery

What fantastic looking mice you have they are amazing


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## moustress

Thanks so very much! I've ben spending a little extra time with these girlies taming to the hand and that long haired one is the boldest and friendliest of the batch. Yesterday I made the mistake of wearing a long sleeve shirt in the mousery and almost had several of them up my sleeve. That would be be way to much fun!


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## Raindropmousery

lol that sounds fun it is so cute when they try and go up your arm but the hard part is getting them back out.


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## moustress

Yes, hard to do when you are giggling and shrieking from the tickles!


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## moustress

This bunch are two accidental litters from one or two (not certain if it's a which one or what) hermaphrodites. One litter is fomr the mom another from a sister. The younger litter off the sister are all runts, with couple who don't look like they're gonna make it. The littler ones just opened their eyes in the last couple of days.


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## Raindropmousery

they are really pritty mice


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## moustress

thanks


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## moustress

Here's the first pix of Adamantine's and Nibbles' litter. It looks like I have a bunch of nicely marked tris in this litter. Nibbles has been spending a fair amount of time in the nest, which is always good to see.








Addie and Nibs enjoy some Rice Chex dipped in yoghurt.


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## julieszoo

Aww, I think those 2 are just a little bit spoilt  Can't wait for the fur to come in.


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## moustress

Maybe that's why wild mice used to break in to my cages; they wanted to be pampered too!


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## moustress

Shirley's and Adamant's boys from their second litter plus the boy from Popeye's and Golden Boy's second litter:


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## moustress

The oopsie babies all have their eyes open now. Not planned but cute anyway.


The younger mom is in this pic; I'm not sure if she's satin agouti, chocolate, or cinnamon.


The older mom is in this pic. I love the depth of color in her coat.









Here are some new pix of Adamantine and Nibbles babies shwoing their fur starting to come in.







I love it when tiny baby mousies fall asleep in my hand!


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## WillowDragon

Some of those look blueish... is that possible from the parents?

A couple of them look to have some good spolges of colour!! =oD I can't wait to see how the one with the headspot turns out!!

Willow xx


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## moustress

Yeah, that head spot is outstanding. Yes, blue is possible. I tried a couple of years ago to get blue tris, but didn't realize or didn't think what the siamese dilution would do to the markings. They were all swirly and brindly. I think the lightly marked ones will be agouti/chinchilla, though. I am going to try again to get blue tris very soon. I also need to figure out a different strategy to getting more extensive markings in my yellow tris; I'm just not satisfied with the progress in that project.


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## julieszoo

Very striking markings, bet you can't wait for the fur


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## moustress

You betcha! Especially with the tris as you just never quite kow what's going to happen. I'm always extra eager to get up to the mousery at night when I have babies. Babs, Adamantine's sister, and Chuck, an older marked black tri carrier, had a new litter yesterday. Looks like they have about eight pinkies. Chuck is a nice big chunky fellow, and I'd like to see some size improvement in my tris.


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## moustress

Here's some new pix of Adamantine's and Nibbles' babies at about one week. The interesting thing about these babies is that there are only two or three that have bold markings. Both parents have bold markings; the litter that Addie came from had four bold tris and four marked black. You'd think I'd get more bold tris from two parents who are both boldly marked.


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## julieszoo

It must be frustrating trying to fix the markings in the line, but worth it for the ones that are well marked, they are fab!


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## Raindropmousery

awwwww those babys are adorable love tri coloured wish i had some.


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## moustress

Thanks.

Here are pix of Chuck's and Babs' litter. Babs is From Shirley off of Adamantine; Chuck is and great big old marked black who carries tri. there are some pretty crazy looking little meeces in this litter!


Babs


Chuck-not a great pic he's actually kind of typy


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## julieszoo

Oooh, some nice markings in there, did you get what you were hoping for?


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## moustress

Ideally I would like to see more solid patches of unmixed color on white, but with Chuck being a carrier of tri instead of tri I am not surprised to see markings that are mixed hues. Its certainly interesting, and as I don't show my meeces, it's no big deal. I am still very fascinated by the seemingly unending variety of markings I get from this kind of pairing. One of the things I need to do is get the c dilutions sorted out, mainly to stop producing mousies with the siamese dilution, as that is one of the things that causes this kind of chaotic assortment.

It's interesting that there's a breeder in Germany whose line is all based on c^e c^e, which I figured out on my own was the way to get good clear patches of single hue on a background of white. Wish I'd known that at the start, but the guy I got the tris from not forthcoming with any useful details like that, so I've been flailing around in the dark, having tons of little tris, and tons of fun. It'll get sorted out eventually, as I am in this for the long haul.


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## moustress

Nibbles' and Adamantine's babies have opened their eyes.



[url=http://img16.imageshack.us/i/img3902gj.jpg/]


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## lindberg4220

Beautiful baby mice :love

How does tricolour come, is it a specific gene or gene combination or something else?


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## moustress

Well, it's a topic of contention, that's for sure. There is something that interacts with dilutions on the c locus, that causes patches of fur which would be in a diluted form, such as beige, revert to other shades produced by the same type of melanin, in most cases brown, chocolate, coffee, black, etc. Some folks attribute it to a separate gene that they call Splashed.

I've done quite a bit of searching for a better explanation, and I believe there is good reason to think that it's a form of transgeneticism that is responsible for the changes in colors and markings. This would probably be extra material from an X chromosome inserted into the c-locus, similar to or perhaps the very same thing as something called Cattanach's translocation. I'm not sure perhaps the proper term is Cattanach's Translocation, as a technique, rather than the name of the particular form. I'm far from an expert in these matters, but there are characteristics described in technical detail, such as the altered behavior of color expression, along with manifestations of trisomy, where the mouse who is, because of the extra material from an X chromosome, and is XXY instead of XX or XY, shows signs of hermaphroditism, and other symptoms like neurological problems. There are other aspects that seem to explain my results of crosses of tri and yellow, and tri and brindled meeces. There seems to be an embedded sequencing that makes expression of the tri factor to appear, disappear, and reappear in a different form. It's frustrating to have an idea of what's happening, but not have the expertise to really accurately describe it. I keep going back to the article on Cattanach's and trying to make further sense out of it; I hope I have one of those 'Eureka!' moments one of these days.

The case for them being transgenic animals is supported by members of the Finnish mouse club, several of who are experts in genetics, and by reading I've done on transgenics and mosaicism. Wikipedia has a picture of a marked mouse who has patches of agouti and chinchilla markings, one of the forms I have have seen quite a bit of in my pairings. There are so many different transgenetic lines of mousies available that I don't know if I'll ever be able to say for absolute sure what exactly was done to create the line that my tris come down from.

Ultimately, the only thing mouse breeders concern themselves with is the results, and that can be nearly impossible to predict. I figured out on my own that the c^e dilution is the one that will give the clearest, most discrete patches of individual color, and shortly thereafter saw a site in Germany that described this same thing. My problem with the tricolors come from not getting much, if any, useful info about how the phenomenon worked from the person that sent me my first tris. So, I've spent almost three years experimenting with with different kinds of crosses.

I am no longer amused by the appearance of hermaphrodites that start out looking female and then switch to having fully functional external gonads. At least now I know to look under the tails regularly to see if a 'she' starts showing 'he' parts. I love mousies, but I can do without bunches of unplanned pinkies. *sigh* The little switchers did it at a very young age which is how I was caught completely off guard.

One of these days I'm going to collect my musings on this subject so I don't have to keep repeating myself. But, for now, sometimes I find that reiterating jogs my brain and some little bit slips into place and I understand just a little bit better than I did before. It's frustrating and exciting all at the same time. Several other breeders insists that there isn't room for more factor on the c locus, but it appears that one can, and has, made room on the c locus, or on the chromosome that contains that locus, for quite a bit of genetic material. I just don't think it's really possible to ascribe the markings and color reversions to one separate locus; I think the matter needs further inquiry, which is what I am continuing to do.


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## moustress

I finally got pix of all my current litters. Starting with Chuck's and Bab's litter:











These are from Adamant and one of the girls from his and Shirley's litters:











Here's quick peek at two other litters. First Flame's and Firestarter's



And these are Shirley's and Schmitty's:



One of the interesting things about these litters is the appearance of blue tris in two of them, and another thing is the presence of curlies.


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## moustress

Chuck went to bachelor quarters last night and I took these pix of Babs and the babes:


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## julieszoo

Aww look at the little sheepy ones


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## Raindropmousery

*moustress*
You have some amazing mice would it be possible to use one of your tri coloured mice pics on my website i will credit your name

thank you
raindrop


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## Tina

im loving the tri mouses


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## Elven

Your mice are just too beautiful to be true. I wish I could come over and get some.


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## moustress

Yeah, I wish you could too!  And I'm glad you enjoy the pix.

I really need to update this whole thread, as all these little babies are grown up now. I'm in a breeding hiatus at the moment and I'm regrouping and reconsidering my approach to breeding tris. There's a seizure disorder in the line that seems to be more of a problem in my yellow tris but has shown up in some of the others types as well. The worst part is that the guy that sent me my tri mousie three years ago didn't tell me that the other two he sent me also carried the tri factor. The beautiful longhaired yellow female was bred into my yellow line and it's just starting to show in litters that weren't meant to be tri. One of my most anticipated litters off a female that I thought was a satin silver fawn and a male I thought was satin fawn (he was) has seen both of the parents die unseen. I fostered the young on another young female to keep them company; they were about two weeks old and able to eat solid food, and several of the litter have died as well. I witnessed one of the young mousies having a seizure. That one hasn't died, but I can't in good conscience breed any of them.

I still love the diversity of markings in the litters I've produced, and will probably do another round of breeding in about a month or six weeks or so.


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## Erica

Wow... your tri's are beautiful! Tri's are my favorite... I tried a couple breedings, and got none; and just out of luck, I got 3 from a broken Orange/broken agouti cross. They will definitely be bred one more time, in hopes to get a few more... I would love to have more of them!


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## Elven

Hope you can do it, if you cant, then who will? Keep up the good work.


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## moustress

It would seem that tris are being bred by quite a few breeders around the globe. As far as I know, I'm the only one to create yellow tris. I want to continue breeding tris in general, but I need to figure out where the seizure disorder comes from and try to see if I can weed out the genes responsible. I also was a bit surprised to see standards established, but, hey, I don't care about show standards. There's such incredible diversity to be found in tris, and I want to understand how the whole thing works. I was not surprised to see a guy in Germany whose tris fit the standards established had settled on the c^e/c^e as the preferable C locus genotype for nice clear patches of color with white around them. I had just figured that out on my own, so I'm not surprised that someone else did. I am unendingly curious to know if all the tris come from the same line of meeces, or whether there have been multiple sources used around the world.


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## neurozool

Wouldn't your yellow tri's be broken merle fawns? I was under the impression that a true tri had to use c-dilutes, but I have mainly been looking at only one clubs standards, and haven't looked into any others.


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## moustress

No, they are tris. The c locus dilutions inherent in the tri factor work on all the locuses more or less impartially. Even without the tri factor yellow pigments are affected by c locus dilutions. The yellow and red tris are a bit different, as the does so far have not had any patches of solid color like the bucks have. I wish I knew why that is so, and it's not holding me up; I have several litters in process, and plan to continuing to investigate the phenomenon. I'm also working on blue tris; I have a few, but they don't have the contrast I want as of yet.


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## neurozool

Sorry, LOL, one of the pics of the yellow tris looked rather merled in spots, and as I have never seen either a yellow tri or a fawn merle, I mistook it for what I thought would be the more common variety that would look like a tri (broken fawn merle) It's really cool that you are working so hard to figure the whole tri thing out! You never know what they did in the lab! Have you tried to find the original JAX lab tri? If you found it, I am sure a paper got wrote on the new mutation. (of course it could have been another lab)


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## moustress

The tri factor is capable of mimicking a lot of marking patterns, especially in the yellow and red meeces. I had a doe who looked like a silvered fawn, I have plenty of yellow tris that look like merle. There is definitely something different going on with the yellow tris.


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