# Protecting the line



## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I know many of the long term invested breeders are inactive now, but wanted to ask this in case someone was passing through.

It's been discussed before that we don't want our lines ending up in a pet store. Now, how big of a red flag is it that a potential adopter's fiancé works at a pet store and is "very excited" for the new addition? I'm adopting out a male and so far, she seems like a great option, but I wonder how people avoid new adopters breeding their mice and then dump the babies in a pet shop. My thinking is "You can't" but, well, wondered about people's strategies to sniff out this situation. For Toronto, this mouse is really good looking. Our mice are generally ridiculously small (20g fully grown), beady eyes, tiny ears, no tail set, etc. So I'm now worried that maybe this guy sees potential in my boy. Or not. Maybe they're perfectly wonderful people who would never think of breeding him.

How do you deal with this concern?


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## Veritai (Jan 26, 2013)

Um ... working with rats I'm in a slightly different position (eg, contracts, questions etc being normal), but I ask people if they're ever interested in breeding, in like, a supportive, friendly, I love talking about this stuff kinda way. And it gives me the chance to mention breeding quality vs pet quality animals etc.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Like you say you can't, so if you don't want people breeding from your mice don't sell any. I think a lot of breeders don't sell/give mice as pets just as stock to other breeders.

I've sold to pet people who have said they are interested in breeding so I explained how I breed and why and what I didn't agree with that some others do. They were glad for the information. I've also sold to a feeder breeder who told me how he breeds and culls them and I was happy with how he does it.

But to be honist it doesn't bother me if people breed my mice as long as they are doing it right but the mice I normally let go as pets have faults so not suitable for show breeding anyway.


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Seeing as I never gave/sold/adopted any mouse, to anyone, not sure I have any room to talk. I also lucked out with the breeder I found for my start, at the age of 10. However, I've contemplated the problem of no mice as pets, except pet store mice, and I'm still weighing the idea. I do regret that no mouse of the lines I bred are still alive. As they were dying off, when I was 18-20, I kept thinking it was a shame. After seeing what is available in the US, it was a true crying shame. I really don't want to go that route again, even with lesser lines. So... here are my thoughts.

People who work in pet stores tend to really just like animals. Or at least, that is what I've observed. Most who work in pet shops tend to assume you will understand they love animals, by the very fact that they work in a pet shop. They don't see it the same way as a breeder would. If he has looked at the mice in the shop and wanted those, then your mouse might seem to be a huge 'upgrade', as a pet. That is me trying to look at it from a happy angle.  If you get a chance to talk to them both, definitely suss out how they feel about breeding, breeders. Low key.

If I ever get my head wrapped around how to adopt out mice to pet people, by the time they are close to picking up the mouse, they will know very clearly that the mouse isn't meant to be bred, ever. Obviously, I'd hate to miss the next dedicated breeder to come along. Or worse, discourage them so badly they never start, so I will have to make provisions for that somewhere. Those potential breeders would be receiving different mice though.

Any mouse up for 'adopting out' would be one I deemed either wanting a huge 'pet style' cage, no babies, massive human attention, or all of the above. So, in other words, not fit to be happy as a breeding mouse, even if they were right for it in other ways. Plus possibly passing that on to offspring. Those mice were always a challenge for me before. So much the better if they can make someone else happy, instead of drive me crazy. My plan is to have excess females that were not close enough to the standard by 8-12 weeks, to go as the adoptable female mouse's companions. Males would be a special case. Not sure I would adopt any out.

I can't recall reading too many breeder bio's/past info, where they didn't, at some point, buy or sell from a pet shop. Especially USA/CAN. Then either realized that wasn't a good idea (mostly as they found a breeder), or simply stated they got into show/exhibition mice. Sometimes that takes years, or never happens, due to a unique pet shop relationship, or really bad location/driving capability. Exhibition breeders don't appear to get stock they are allowed to handle in such a way, so perhaps it never happens, if they start there. Exhibition breeders can be former pet breeders.

I don't know at this point, with the hindsight of losing my lines, if I could deny a pet shop worker/fiance of, on the basis I wasn't fully sure they would never breed that specific mouse. Especially if they seemed happy to provide a pet home to a male (!), and passed all my other roadblocks. Wouldn't stop me from worrying though.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

_...but I ask people if they're ever interested in breeding, in like, a supportive, friendly, I love talking about this stuff kinda way._

That's actually pretty genius. I wish I had thought of that. In some cases (like our Vicats) I don't mind if the adopter breeds as I trust their judgement and open mindedness. But this person I found more difficult to read. I should have tried that approach.

I'd be completely okay with someone breeding to feed their reptiles assuming the cull method was humane and they're experienced. It's the leak to pet stores I'd worry about where all they care about is earning money rather than the welfare of the animals they sell. My worst fear for the babies is ending up in a home of neglect which is why I tell people if they can't care for them anymore, I will take them. Our pet stores (that sell animals) are generally part of a chain and I've yet to talk to an employee who really cares about mice who knows much about them.

Haha I like that happy angle!  And I hope that's the case in this couple's view. Unfortunately I already told them I would rather not sell to people who would breed so all I can do is hope they were truthful when they said he's intended for pet only. The adopter did share that she bred degus once and understood why I'd worry so I am hopeful as she too worried about the babies she rehomed. But yes, I did go the discouraging route - I quite truthfully shared my concern about his mother showing possible OCD barbering. It may have been a one time occurrence, I won't know for sure until I reintroduce her to her female cage mates, but the fact that her mate had thinning fur and then bald patches which grew back after she had her babies, well...weird. Anyway, I did mention since they're only the 4th generation, I cannot truly speak for expected health or longevity at this stage. And then my worrier mind goes back to, "Would a pet store care?" All a pet store needs is for them to look cute in their youth.

I definitely have a few excess females now too old to breed who would make good pets which is handy because the female I kept is one I would adopt out if the right person showed interest. But yes, males definitely seem like their own case given they can breed so long as they can breathe. However, this hopefully will be the only litter where I had to keep a couple of males (new foundation buck needed) leaving one extra. I don't think my mice are even close to show worthy (better than most around here but not show worthy) it's just the concept that I am responsible for the lives I created, and the lives those lives create. : x

She emailed me back and said all the right things, even exceeding my expectations, so I'm going to go ahead and proceed with the adoption. But you're right, I will worry a little. I don't get the sense this is a home that would keep me in the loop if health issues arise as other homes have but I can hope.


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