# Need some help



## bella_squeak (Nov 4, 2015)

So I got a few questions. First, one of my mice seems to be fat. He is definitely a he.









I got a new mouse today and he is just do adorable! I don't know what type he is so help if you can.. he has grey hair and a black head, white behind his ears and a black and pink tipped tail.
















I was in a new mouse mood because I still have very few mice (than the thousands I want haha).. and I saw "fancy mouse" and they were way bigger than my small feeders and I wonder what type you guys have? Also, I didn't think you could breed the two and when the pet store person picked one up and it chomped down hard so I decided that's a sign I shouldn't get one lol.

Another predicament I just made for myself is I was planning to sell one of my cages but now I can't (until I get another) because now I have two males. I know you aren't supposed to house them together but I wish you could so much. Have any of you done it and been successful? I plan on having them separate still because I don't want deaths but I wish they would just be friends.


----------



## micurious (Nov 7, 2015)

I mean, we house boys together in lab all the time. But only littermates, and no enrichment, no houses, nothing to be territorial over. I guess especially they're more likely to cooperate if there's a benefit to huddling for warmth.

I dunno, I kiiiiind of think no enrichment is harsher than no company, on the one hand. On the other hand, it feels a little harsh to dispose of or avoid mice just because they're male!

Re: your new mouse friend. I know I've seen discussion of it being a "fault" when showing, and one that tends to be hard to breed out. Not harmful or anything. Just against show standards.

The white ears are interesting. I think Linnet, my black mouse, has slightly lighter fur around her ears, but that might just be because it's thinner up there? Yours looks actually white. Like reverse Siamese points. On the other hand, it's so perfectly centered that I can't imagine it's caused by the usual spotting gene.

Does his hearing seem normal? Just out of idle curiosity.

Oh hey fun fact for our friends the forum experts: I was studying for my Neurobiology of Disease exam, as you do, and in the obesity lecture happened across a gene called the "agouti-related peptide" gene. Ten guesses what mouse gene THAT translates to.


----------



## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

My blue tan buck has white hair behind the ears similar to yours, I assumed it was a fault due to poor breeding of pet shop stock. Although it would not be allowed for show I actually think its pretty cute and I love that white tail tip!

I have read a lot about obesity problems in yellow/brindle but why is it that they have these issues?


----------



## bella_squeak (Nov 4, 2015)

I want to know that too because my brindle is huge and now that I have the tiny new male he seems ginormous! I love that micurious is studying genes and all that is really cool.

I agree about the male mice because I want to put them together but let's see what other people's opinions are.

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk


----------



## SamOfChaos (Nov 29, 2015)

My black male has also the lighter ears, I think he just is a really bad tan ( he has a whithe tailtip and paws too). In 2 litters with fox does he got 100% tan/fox as offsprings.

In my country its actually against the law to breed dominant yellow, brindle, rex, longhair and a few others because of the healthproblems. If a animal is in pain because of a color or other mutation related change its considered a 'qualzucht' (breeding of defects/ angony breed).


----------



## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Sorry for asking in this thread bella_squeak

But do you know the reasoning behind Rex/LH being banned in Germany Sam? I am hoping to get a couple of texels in a month or two and after looking up about Rex mice the only health issues I can find out about is eye discharge that can be easily cleared up (Here is what I was reading)


----------



## SamOfChaos (Nov 29, 2015)

It seems that longhair, rex and wavy have curled eyleshes, so the mice will get an permanent eye irritation/infection also its said they can't maintain their temperature well (would say thats also for satin, but nobody says they are ''qualzuchten"). Its also said they have curled whiskers and therefore problems with orientation.

Acually I have longhair with only a little longer coat (not as poofi as the ones I saw in the Forum) and they never had problems with the eyes or whiskers.
But I dont want Ay or Avy in my Lines, I dont like the fat mice ^^"

Here two of my 'longhairs'


























Sorry for the offtopic bella_squeak. The Black mice above is the one I wrote about.


----------



## bella_squeak (Nov 4, 2015)

Awe that's so sad! I had no idea!!! Should I not breed those then?

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk


----------



## SamOfChaos (Nov 29, 2015)

Well I for myself wouln't breed Ay or Avy. The obesity most likly will have more side effects (as in humens) then being fat, like rheuma, heart problems, liver problems and so on.
For the coatvariations, just make sure the mice you are breeding are healthy throughout their lifes. And mybe don't make them to extrem (like with some bird or dog mutations). But thats my definition ^^"

Well the thing with the german law and the 'qualzuchten' is that if somebody wants to stop you breeding them they need to bring evedence that this animal is suffering so much right now that its life is no more livable. (Thats as impossible as its sound)
But breeders here most likly keep abstain from breeding mutations that are able to pass as 'qualzuchten'. Its like a bit of breeder ethic. 
But then again I think thats the problem with the coat mutations. Only massbreeders for petshops are breeding them on low quality and more mass (thay are rare in Germany and can be sold for much money and many pet owners want them, because...rare...). Mybe THATS the reason for all the health problems. Since Satin is in 'proper breeders' hands the coat has no problems.
You can select a line for a closed long coat, straight whiskers, no curled eyelashes... no proplem at all.


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with my rex or texel mice's eyes. There is concern that this *might* happen, but it's frankly not a realistic concern, no matter how curly the coat is. Even fuzzy (much curlier coat than rex or texel) rarely has eye issues, and it is not difficult to breed against.


----------



## SamOfChaos (Nov 29, 2015)

Thats what i thought too, because my 'longhairs' never had problems too. Thanks for the feedback


----------



## micurious (Nov 7, 2015)

So agouti-related protein turns out to be just that - related to our coat gene, though by 25%. It's actually a neurotransmitter involved in signalling not-hungry/full/satiated vs hungry/not full. So, basically, what keeps us all from eating until we're sick.

The Avy gene allele you see in your brindles (unlike the brindles in the UK, let's not forget) is related and very similar in structure but nobody quite understands why it makes mice fat. They can still sense when they're full but they definitely eat more than their siblings who don't have the allele. Now you would think that over-eating is what makes them fat, but research has proved that's still not the case. It looks like mice that have Avy are just BETTER at making and storing fat than their siblings. Which, if you think about it at an evolutionary level, could possibly be quite helpful for a wild mouse. Fat storage is energy storage, remember.

Unfortunately, like fat usually does, it raises their insulin levels, which is why they're considered an obesity & diabetes model in labs.

A couple more interesting things: they won't get fat until they're getting older and more mature, not just because of the amount they eat but because the gene is only expressed in their skin when they're earlier in development. ALSO, and I think this is coolest of all because it's kind of my thing, that brindling that you see is actually determined by their ENVIRONMENT, specifically: their diet. There's a nifty little paper that found the Avy allele is very prone to DNA methylation, which is one of the ways your body regulates your gene expression. DNA methylation can actually be triggered by outside events like diet, maybe other less obvious things like sun exposure. The darker your brindle's coat is, the more heavily methylated the gene is - they can go almost all the way back to the wild type agouti coat (A). That's why brindles have such a range! The very yellow ones are the least methylated - so maybe your little pink mystery boy who hasn't got much for spots. So, FYI, if you're giving your pregnant lady mice soy - which has the plant phytoestrogen genistein in it, and donates methyl groups - your brindle babies might end up looking a little more agouti and ALSO slightly less chubby.

On the other hand, if their water bottle is leaking BPA into their water, they're likely to go more yellow and thus more obese. (The good news is, that can be avoided when you also supplement with things like folic acid or vitamin B12) I, uh, don't actually recommend doing that on purpose. For the record.

Soy could also protect them from breast cancer! No, really. Where do you think your doctors get all those dietary recommendations? I suddenly feel really good about the bean sprouts that accidentally got into the pregnant ladies' feed this week. Maybe I should invest in tofu.

So that's your weekly science report?


----------



## bella_squeak (Nov 4, 2015)

Good lord that's alot of information. It makes you think though. I feel so bad for my male and hope he still lives a good life despite getting bigger by the minute I feel like.

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk


----------



## bella_squeak (Nov 4, 2015)

Sorry to ask again but: what is the difference between feeder mice and fancy mice, and which do most of you have?

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk


----------



## SamOfChaos (Nov 29, 2015)

Ah, acually there is no diffrence. But my mice are breed for feeding my snakes, I dont give them away as pets.


----------



## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Feeder mice, fancy mice, show mice, and domestic mice are all the same species. The distinctions vary, but are generally based on where you got them.


----------

