# March 24th Double Litter



## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Buck: Riot, Himalayan Satin
Doe #1: Turbine, Yellow Pied
Doe #2: Turbine's Ionic Spark, F1 Brindle Pied
Numbers: Not yet known

Mother and Daughter both became round upon the same time, and both gave birth today. I'm hoping Turbine helps Spark along, since Turbine was such a good mother the first time around in January.

I went to offer Turbine a little treat today and noticed she had lost all her plumpness. I gently pulled the entrance to the nest away, and saw Spark wasn't plump anymore either, and had several tiny pink bodies swarming underneath her.

The buck's sa/sa will make all babies SA/sa. I have a similar plan happening in another cage with a SA/SA buck and sa/sa does.
The two different sets of offspring will be bred to each other, and then with a little luck or a large litter I can start working on pure Satin type.
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For those in Alberta extra offspring will be available for pets, non-gene-guaranteed breeders, and feeders, and will be available in that preference of order over time.


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

There are only six left.
There's blood all over the cage. 
Maybe someone got jealous. Maybe the cold night we had was too much for the little ones. Maybe when the water bottle fell I got to it too late - I've no idea how long it takes for dehydration to set in in mice. Maybe I misjudged Spark's readiness.
The remaining six are all VERY small. Is it possible both mothers just had weak litters? I suppose that would be something running through on Dad's side since Turbine's last litter was so strong and healthy.

One fell out of the nest. I tried placing it under the other pups (with a piece of firm bedding instead of my fingers to minimize smell) with hope they'd take it back. Spark seems protective of the remaining ones. Not from the other mice, just watching me carefully as I refilled water/food.

I guess I shouldn't say blood everywhere. It's more the fact that the bedding that used to be in the nest has been pulled out and thrown away for new by the mothers.


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## angelofwhimsy (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh gosh, so sorry to hear about your bad luck  hope the remaining 6 thrive!


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Oh no.  Mom's seem to really depend on water being there, even if they don't need it right then. Same with food sometimes, but lack of water can make a nervous mom. As you might guess, nervous mom's can eat babies if, for whatever reason, they feel resources are running out. Especially with a new mom in there. At this point, you really don't know who ate them, or why they died/were eaten. Hope all goes well with the remaining six.

-Zanne


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Yeah, definitely the new mom is a suspect, 'cause since she's new, and seems a little more nervous than Turbine was the first time, I imagine any little thing could be setting her off.

Anyways - is there a pup age where things will turn safely? As in, an age where it's much less to rarely heard of for mums to eat the babies? Out of the danger zone, et cetera.

Another thing I'd enjoy hearing an opinion of is if I should choose one Mother to be separated with the litter. I'm considering this because I'm wondering if there's concerns that now that there's only six NEITHER mother will be stimulated enough to produce nourishment, whereas if one was isolated with them she would get a good sized litter to herself. Of course if this happened I'd be going with Turbine, the tried and tested matriarch.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't think there's a safe age.  I've seen stories on here of babies who were eaten at three weeks old. Rare, but it's happened.

Good question. I'm not sure what I'd do...if you've seen Turbine nursing I'd be tempted to hand them over to her. Or perhaps if the litter is important you can give both mothers three babies and separate them? Six is enough to stimulate milk. My litters range from 3-4 (unless yours have a history of ceasing to produce milk...?). I've read the optimum size is between 3-5.


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Checked again today, no more eaten.

Three are still VERY pink and small, but all six have full bellies. I'm not holding out much hope for the three, as they're much smaller than their siblings despite full bellies everywhere.

The three developing pigment at this point look two grey/one black - but I'm very bad at telling color possibilities, so this is just the literal shade they are right now.

If this litter doesn't make it I'll be attempting to breed Riot with an unrelated female to see if maybe it's his bad genes that aren't producing healthy offspring.

Additionally, regardless of outcome I may retire TI Spark, as she is far more nervous than I'd prefer to see in a Mother. I know it's her first time and everything, and I'm a new breeder so maybe I'm being too hard on a first time Mother... I just expected more after how well Turbine handled raising eleven children.


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Six fat healthy pups after checking tonight. 
3 light colored, 1 greyish, 1 black, and most interestingly one yellow, but with dark Siamese looking points. 
The Himalayan father doesn't even have dark paws and tail, but this pup has nose, paws, and tail. Forgot to check ears before I put them back.


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## Lyra (Mar 1, 2013)

Colours sound interesting, any chances of photos?


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

The yellow pointed is an overmarked brindle pointed.


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