# Losing Legs



## aussiljd (Jul 14, 2010)

I have come across a litter of mice that are losing legs. The litter is about 4 weeks old now, three have lost both front legs, three have lost one front leg, and the last one looks just like the others did before the leg fell off. Anyway, it is about midway up the front leg where the division is happening. 
He showed me two kits that had blood on one front leg shortly after birth, but only two out of seven. But this seems to be what has happened with them -> From the midpoint of the leg down it suddenly looks like the mouse is wearing a latex glove filled with water (best way I can describe it). Then it is just gone and the mouse is left with what appears to be a perfectly healthy stump. When we noticed it on two pups, we assumed it was the two we saw blood on when they were pinkies. However, the numbers now as stated above, with some with both front legs missing. They can eat and drink on their own and get around just fine.

Anyone have any idea what is happening to them?

*As a side note, the entire line on both the doe and buck's side is currently removed from breeding as a precaution. These are all pet mice and their owner does not cull.

Pictures attached, sorry about the quality of some of them. Picture six was taken approx. two weeks ago- before the leg fell off. At that point the other leg was perfectly normal, and has since fallen off.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

This is so weird!! And yet oddly fasinating (though I am very sorry for the poor mice!)

What type of nesting was used when they were young? If it was the cotton wool type bedding that could explain it... it is renowned for causing problems like the tiny strands wrapping around legs and cutting of blood flow.

W xx


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes! That last picture looks EXACTLY like the leg is being restricted by fibers. Take out any fabrics that are in your mouse's cages immediately! The little threads get tangled around their legs, and constrict blood flow, and they eventually die and fall off. How awful. . .

I have photos of another mouse who had the same problem, it matches the last photo perfectly.


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## aussiljd (Jul 14, 2010)

It was carefresh and toilet paper. Every pup in that one litter is having the same problem, so I'm watching them now to see if every one loses both front legs, and if anything happens to the rear legs.

Just wanted to state that I use carefresh as well, and his other mice raise pups on the same stuff, and this is the only litter that has had an issue. The odd thing is, it is continuing to happen to the one litter...


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Photo I was talking about.
If you have any more mice, you CAN save the legs, by carefully removing the threads with a small pair of tweezers.

Just saw your new comment. Are you sure they didn't have anything else in the cage with them? -Something- is (apparently) cutting off circulation in those legs. It's possible that maybe it's a weird kind of toilet paper. . . ? Try taking the toilet paper out, and leaving them on only carefresh.

EDIT: Also, take a careful look at any pups with swollen legs, try to see if you can see something wrapped around their leg. Try using a magnifying glass.


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## aussiljd (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm positive there was nothing else, carefresh and Charmin. And the other does' litters are perfectly fine (there are 2 agouti litters about the same age born in the same tank).


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

This is utterly strange. . . We'll have to absolutely eliminate the possibility that it might be something external. If it's not that, then it's possible that there's some type of strange genetic problem causing it. Unfortunately, the only way to prove that, would be to breed them again, and see if it repeats. Which, may be unethical, depending on who you ask.

Keep us posted.


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

Do they have ropes or shomething like that than they gnaw on and some threads may be in the nest but not seen because it´s so close to carefresh in colour?
This looks justlike when baby hamsters get wrapped up in "hamster cotton" which people commonly use inside the hamsterhouse. There is definetly some kind of thread wrapped around the leg! 

Is it possible for a long hair from a long haired mouse to wrap around the leg? (just a thought)
Or are there children in the home who maybe wanted to be nice to the mice and give them something in the cage without anyone noticing?


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## ian (Oct 3, 2008)

That last pictures looks really rough. Glad to hear the mice are coping well without all of their limbs.


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## aussiljd (Jul 14, 2010)

I just pulled out the one that is in the process of losing a leg, and while I didn't see anything, I'll pick up a magnifying glass and check it again tonight. 
The tank only consisted of carefresh, toilet paper, wood chews, empty toilet paper/paper towel rolls, their wheels, food bowl, and water bottle. I can switch them to a different bedding and see if it stops happening...? I put them in more carefresh and toilet paper. We are pretty sure that the one pictured above (number six) was one of the pinkies that had a bloody leg.

Edited to add: There are no children in the house, just his dog.


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

Yes I would see what happens with diffirend kind of bedding, this is too sad, I am sure you won´t see anything when the leg is that swollen, the thread is just too far inside the leg. I don´t think it´s possible to remove the thread without cutting in the flesh anyway.... :|


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

That's bizarre; I've never seem anything like it. Removing them from breeding seems the wise course, and I'd be tempted to cull the whole tank just in case it's some kind of infectious agent.

I have had a mousie or two get a slightly swollen and reddened foot, but those were adults. I recall someone using the term 
'bumblefoot' for that kind of thing, but that's more common with meeces that have a metal grill on the bottom of the cage.


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

moustress, If you look at the photo you can see where the foot goes in in once place like there is a rubber band around the leg. I have seen this many times with hamster babies, every single time there was some kind of thread or fibre that wrapped around the leg and when it was too tight the foot started swelling and the thread dissapeard into the leg and eventually the leg fell off.

I saw it while working in a petstore, hamster owners frequently go to petstores here to solve problems since it is very expensive to go to a vet, that is why I have seen this many times before. That is why I am sure about this.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Yeah, I can see that in the last pic; it does look like there's something kind of dangling from that poor swollen foreleg....


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

Yes on photo number six the thread is visible. I didn´t even notice it when I looked at it first, just recognized the swollen leg and how the leg was. Now when I take another look at photo number six it is clearly visible under the leg. Don´t know where the tread is coming from but it´s coming from somewhere.


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## LimaMikeSquared (Jul 14, 2010)

It may have been a bad batch of bedding that slipped through the net - If it has been torn up by the mice it may have released some fibres that it may not have meant to.

Julie


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## aussiljd (Jul 14, 2010)

LimaMikeSquared said:


> It may have been a bad batch of bedding that slipped through the net - If it has been torn up by the mice it may have released some fibres that it may not have meant to.
> 
> Julie


If there is something around the legs, that is the only thing I can think of as well. They are on paper towel now and nothing else, so we will see if it continues, although I still find it odd that it was one litter out of three in the same tank same bedding, and it is every pup in that one litter. As for the picture, I can't say, it was taken two weeks ago, I don't remember if there was dog hair on his arms or anything like that, so I am not willing by just that one picture to draw a solid conclusion because it looks like something someone has seen. If it stops happening now, I would say it is a valid assumption. If it continues to happen on the paper towel, clearly that is not what is happening. I'll update in a few days and let everyone know.


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## LimaMikeSquared (Jul 14, 2010)

Just wondering - are they weaned yet?

When they are - will they have trouble eating their food or grooming due to the lack of feet?

Julie


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## aussiljd (Jul 14, 2010)

LimaMikeSquared said:


> Just wondering - are they weaned yet?
> 
> When they are - will they have trouble eating their food or grooming due to the lack of feet?
> 
> Julie


They are weaned and eat just fine, those with no front legs push their food up against something if they are having trouble. I've been watching them carefully. They even get around remarkably well actually, including climbing. They have very strong hind legs and get some incredible height when they jump. For the most part, those with no front legs can practically walk on only their hind legs. It will be interesting to watch how they develop.


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## CatWoman (Jun 19, 2010)

aussiljd said:


> Edited to add: There are no children in the house, just his dog.


Is it possible he's stored his carefresh bedding in a place that shed dog hairs could have gotten in it and gone by unnoticed, then used by the mother mouse as nesting material for that litter?

I'm an obsessive compulsive cleaner and still find my dogs' shed fur in -everything- that is stored at floor level, including in my rabbit hay and bedding. In the springtime, I take my dogs outside to strip their undercoats and it's very popular nesting material. All sorts of animals come by, stealing bits of it, and I've found parts of my dogs in just about every nest I've ever run across in my yard.


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## Lizzle (Apr 7, 2010)

This happened to my real life friend's 1 year old baby! They had to take him to the emergency room. 

I think CatWoman's suggestion is a good one - if the dog has long hair, it sounds like it'd be more likely that the little babies are getting dog hairs stuck around their feet.

The only thing I could think of to possibly remedy the situation is to move the mouse cage(s) to a higher location (like a bookcase, maybe), and the only thing I can think of that would make the swelling go down would be to inject some kind of steroid under the skin, which only a vet could do (can vets even do that? I'm only familiar with what people-docs and nurses can do). I'm actually impressed that your mousies are simply losing the limbs rather than developing horrible infections.

Hrm, I'm wracking my brain here on what else could possibly be done - I'll edit this reply if I can think of anything.


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## aussiljd (Jul 14, 2010)

I just wanted to update on the litter. They are now six weeks old, and all of the pups have lost both front legs. I have had them for two weeks on nothing but paper towel, and they continued to lose the front limbs. They are also very very tiny- I think they are smaller than my three week olds. I'll try to get a comparison picture.
Also, as for dog hair, he has a rat terrier (super short hair) in his home, and I have Australian shepherds and have had no problems with hairs wrapped around legs. With the events of the last two weeks, I strongly believe that they were not losing legs due to a fiber wrapped around the leg. I believe, especially with the size issue and the fact that it was only one full litter out of the three in the same tank, that something is genetically wrong. Like I said, any individuals related to the buck and the doe have been removed from breeding, and I don't think a repeat breeding will be done for the sake of proving anything.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Very sad.


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