# Breeding Ratio?



## lifelongcannibal

I have always used a 1:4 ratio or lower, but today i put ~9-10 females in with a buck. What are the largest ratios you've tried? Could this one be an issue, maybe overwhelm the stud? also, has anyone *PERSONALLY* tried putting 2 males in with a large number of does?


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## tinyhartmouseries

I've put 3 does in with one buck before, recently. Only one had appeared to take. I wouldn't put it past a buck to impregnate ten does, but don't expect 100% success. Also, that could be 100-200 babies! 
I have had success with two does at once pretty frequently.


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## pro-petz

I have done a ratio of 1.10 for feeder mice years ago without any problems, and know of someone that has more than one buck in the colony all the time with his does although I must say that the bucks are related and have always been together since birth and he has them with 6-10 does number varies between the owners cages.

Before anyone says it can not be done my friend has been doing it that way for atleast 15 years that I know of, he does the same with his rats aswell and never seems to have any problems with the bucks at all.

I think whilst they are all related there is not a problem but problems may occur if unrelated bucks were introduced to each other later on rather than at birth.

I have said this on many other forums relating to animals is the ony person that really knows their animals is the person who spends time in getting to know them. It is not just a matter of feeding watering, cleaning and handling but also time spent just watching the animals in their charge, knowing their behaviour also is just as important and can actually help in spotting ailments early.


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## love2read

I've bred mice in groups before and for the most part had no issues. The only time issues occur is in smaller groups(2-3 does) when one doe has babies a week or so after the other doe. The newer mom will sometimes kill the older litter so there's no competition for her babies.

I've also kept multiple bucks in a group twice. Once it didn't work, but I currently have 2 brothers in with a group of girls(I take the girls out once they become obviously pregnant) to try and bring out a certain characteristic that I'm hoping one of the boys might carry. They've been together for a while now with no issues, not even when I clean their cage.


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## lifelongcannibal

love2read said:


> I've bred mice in groups before and for the most part had no issues. The only time issues occur is in smaller groups(2-3 does) when one doe has babies a week or so after the other doe. The newer mom will sometimes kill the older litter so there's no competition for her babies.
> 
> I've also kept multiple bucks in a group twice. Once it didn't work, but I currently have 2 brothers in with a group of girls(I take the girls out once they become obviously pregnant) to try and bring out a certain characteristic that I'm hoping one of the boys might carry. They've been together for a while now with no issues, not even when I clean their cage.


Yea, I think I'm going to leave a large group together and let them do their thing, as in leaving nursing mothers in. I will monitor closely to make sure the females remain healthy, and I think they will be fine. I once put off removing a doe from the buck when she was pregnant because her belly was hardly enlarged due to a particularly small litter, and she had babies right around weaning time. I've read this can be stressful, but I'm a believer in personal experience and responsibility. Many "breeders" read that on the internet and pass it on as gospel :roll:


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## gyri

I was under the impression that its not a matter of how many females a male can impregnate, but rather how dense is the population? Female mice have been known to stop going into estrous if the population density is too high. My suspicion is that 4 females in a 4 square foot area with a lone male would be fine and all the females should become pregnant regularly but when you cram ten in there you've got issues. Most of my mouse experience is studying populations in the wild and trust me, a male can easily impregnate 10 females in rapid succession. I would think the limiting factor is how many females will be receptive at a given population density. If you want a 10:1 ratio, you'll need a bigger enclosure. The more you cram in there the smaller percent of females are going to be receptive.

I may be way off. Like I said, until this summer I pretty much just had wild mouse population knowledge. These captive gals have been selectively bred for so many generations they can almost be considered a different species entirely. Still though, it makes sense...


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## lifelongcannibal

gyri said:


> I was under the impression that its not a matter of how many females a male can impregnate, but rather how dense is the population? Female mice have been known to stop going into estrous if the population density is too high. My suspicion is that 4 females in a 4 square foot area with a lone male would be fine and all the females should become pregnant regularly but when you cram ten in there you've got issues. Most of my mouse experience is studying populations in the wild and trust me, a male can easily impregnate 10 females in rapid succession. I would think the limiting factor is how many females will be receptive at a given population density. If you want a 10:1 ratio, you'll need a bigger enclosure. The more you cram in there the smaller percent of females are going to be receptive.
> 
> I may be way off. Like I said, until this summer I pretty much just had wild mouse population knowledge. These captive gals have been selectively bred for so many generations they can almost be considered a different species entirely. Still though, it makes sense...


That sounds very feasible.. Still, I will make an attempt. Research and Development.


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## gyri

Well, for the record, I completely made up the numbers up there. The principle should hold true but I don't know what the mouse/square foot ratio is before breeding is inhibited.

Best of luck!


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## lifelongcannibal

thanks, I may post my findings here


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## love2read

If you're going to group-breed it would be wise to take the male out after the does start showing and then put him back in after all the litters have been weaned and the females are ready to breed again.

The few times I did group breedings I did HEAVY culling because I was breeding for a specific color/trait. 10 females and a buck can quickly turn to 100+ mice if you aren't careful! O.O So, if you do plan on group-breeding keep close tabs, so heavy culling, and make sure to take the male out for intervals so the females aren't over-bred and you don't end up with more babies than you know what to do with.


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## lifelongcannibal

> 10 females and a buck can quickly turn to 100+ mice if you aren't careful!


Hopefully it does! Mo mice Mo money


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## love2read

It would be extremely cruel to keep that many mice in one cage...

You'll find that most reputable mouse breeders make little to no money. If you're doing things right and with the mice's health and well-being in mind then your odds of making money are next to it none.

So, if you've got a '"mo mice mo money" mentality then you might be in the wrong place...


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## lifelongcannibal

love2read said:


> It would be extremely cruel to keep that many mice in one cage...
> 
> You'll find that most reputable mouse breeders make little to no money. If you're doing things right and with the mice's health and well-being in mind then your odds of making money are next to it none.
> 
> So, if you've got a '"mo mice mo money" mentality then you might be in the wrong place...


Do you even know how large the cage is? And with your logic, You're saying that any successful feeder supplier does not have the mice's "health and well-being in mind"? I would disagree. By the way, "mo mice mo money" was a partial joke. I do not talk like that in seriousness.


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## Cordane

I cannot comment on the whole feeder breeder situation as mice feeder breeders don't exist around here. 
The "mo mice mo money" thing, joke or not will be found offensive by people on this forum, it is that simple. As for the space, if you go by lab minimum requirements, (which in my eyes is still cruel) in a group situation a mouse must have a minimum of 100 squared centimeters PER mouse. And considering you may very well have 200 babies after you females give birth, that means a minimum of 21,100 square centimeters, (including your 10 does and 1 buck in this) so you would need no less than a 145cm width and 145cm in length tank to accommodate that amount of mice.

Then don't forget that those numbers will very quickly increase every 4 weeks - I don't even want to think of the numbers you will end up with if not careful.


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## lifelongcannibal

> Then don't forget that those numbers will very quickly increase every 4 weeks


 OF COURSE I'd remove weanlings. 


> you may very well have 200 babies after you females give birth, that means a minimum of 21,100 square centimeters, (including your 10 does and 1 buck in this) so you would need no less than a 145cm width and 145cm in length tank to accommodate that amount of mice


 Again, weanlings would be placed in a separate cage. 
And for the space, I don't know if anyone really skimps on cage size to 'conserve space'. We are talking about 40g animals, here; I would have space to house millions comfortably if i wanted to, and therefore have no reason to maintain an unhealthy population density. With all due respect people, I do not need to be told how many mice ten females can have. I am very well aware of how many babies one doe can have, and therefore having graduated gradeschool, can do the math when 9 more have entered the equation. Neither do I need to be told what is cruel and what is not, as morals are rarely something that can be taught via internet forums; if you don't know right from wrong, then your parents have failed. Mine have not. Thank you.


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## Cordane

I meant the population will increase because you said the male would be left with the females and she may give birth when the previous litter is only 3 weeks old. That is all. Geez.


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## pro-petz

I personally can not see how "mo mice mo money" may be offensive as this is a mouse breeding forum and unless one is breeding and retains all the young or pts those they do not want then the majority would in fact sell any surplus whether to pet trade or other breeders in which case the mo mice mo money is a statement of fact irrespective of the quantity of mice being kept.

If the op is thinking of starting a commercial feeder mice business good for them, as many do not realise that the majority of commercial feeder breeders take just as much trouble in maintaining the welfare of their animals as if they are pets. The process within a commercial feeder breeder operation is that pregnant females are removed from the colony and rested females are put in to replace the ones removed thus maintaining the quota per cage ratio.

Note to op the minimum number of does required to give a UK minimum wage would be 2000 and for each additional person employed would need to increase the number of does by 2000 per person. Good luck with your new venture.


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## Cordane

I didn't say everyone would find it offensive.
The reason it could come across offensive is because unless you remember the persons intro where they state they are infact a feeder breeder, you may not suddenly jump to the conclusion that that is what they are. The comment can come across as they are just breeding mice for a quick buck and really don't care about the health and well being of there mice.
Now to the OP, please note that I said it can seem that way, I'm not saying its true only that it can come across that way. Also note that the reason you have been given a heap of information and many people are pushing culling etc COULD BE because you have given very little information about the space you have and your situation. For all we know, you could live in a one bedroom apartment with no job and somehow think you can soley live off the money you make from mice.
The point being is we will give you all the information we can and warn or compliment you of your efforts as we see fit or until you tell us (preferably nicely) that you don't require our help or information.


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## lifelongcannibal

I apologize, I presumed my knowledge of my situation was as well everyone else's. Which is silly. But yes I do in fact breed feeders, and do not plan to live off of their income. I am turning 15 in January, and saving up for a car. This is really just a side job, more of a hobby, to scrap metal and firewood with my dad. And after thinking about it, I will be removing pregnant does to a separate tank and breed more does less rather than breed less does more. Thank you all for your input, and i do apologize


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