# US shows



## Gracegarden

I'm having a terrible time finding a listing for US shows. Is there a secret password or handshake on the fifth Monday of every third month, or are we just really hurting for organized shows in the US?

I would even be happy with fun-matches, junior shows or friendly get-togethers.

Any help or advice on where to look?
(I'm in central Texas)


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## Rhasputin

The UMC has plans, very loose plans, for a show in Oklahoma sometime in the next few months. The only thing stopping it at this point is funding.


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## tinyhartmouseries

What funding, for what, where?


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## Rhasputin

Funding for show costs! 
Venue costs, ribbon costs, travel costs, etc!


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## Laigaie

Whose travel are the members paying for, out of curiosity?


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## Rhasputin

It's not that you're paying for anyone's travel directly, it's just that to have a show that is that distance away, we have to make sure it's well funded, because of our travel costs to get the show out there, on top of everything else that normally goes with a show. 

Does that make sense?


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## Laigaie

So, making sure the venue/ribbons/etc are fully paid for in advance, so that the folks who have to drive a long way don't feel worried? I guess I don't understand, but then I'm not a club member (purely due to lack of access to shows).


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## tinyhartmouseries

L, would you come to this one if it were in OK? Surely that's a bit accessable. I think it's three hours from everyone, here in this area.


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## Jack Garcia

Where in the US are you? In southern California there are shows and Karen will be able to tell you when the next one is. The East Coast Mouse Association (ECMA) also holds shows from Pennsylvania to Tennessee through to Ohio, but it's funded mainly by two or three people so a lot depends on those people's availability and funding (it generally costs a few hundred dollars, at least, to hold a show, plus the cost of travel). There will likely be another ECMA TN get-together in August, but the date isn't set yet.


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## Stina

jack....look below her avatar at her location...  lol


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## Jack Garcia

I see no avatar or location...


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## Stina

oh are you asking the OP?.....it says texas in her post. I thought you were asking Laigaie


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## Jack Garcia

Yeah, sorry, looks like we were both confused!


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## Frizzle

Northern/southern Oklahoma?


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## Laigaie

I could totally do OK, MO, KS, AR. LA, TX, MS or TN are a maybe.


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## Gracegarden

So what can I do to help?

Do you need volunteers for the event? Donations, ribbons, vendors, flyers, cash?
How are the judges brought in/paid? Is their lodging paid for by the club?


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## Jack Garcia

The ECMA always has need for volunteers at shows. Whether it's helping set up, clerking, helping with health checks, or even cleanup, any help is always appreciated.


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## Laigaie

But they don't have shows in our area.


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## Jack Garcia

That's true. It's why people travel. We've had folks attend ECMA events from as far West as Colorado. I was impressed with their tenacity in traveling that far with animals, but realize that not everybody can do that.

It's too bad there isn't a Texas-specific club small animal anymore. It's such a big state I think there's a lot of room for such a club to do well.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I'd like to be judge trained, and train someone else so that I can show too! I enjoy organizing events as well. If we had a judge down here I could organize events whenever pretty much


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## Jack Garcia

A lot depends on what kind of training the judges have and what type of club they're from. I'll try very delicately not to step on any toes here, but I know only three or four judges in the US who have had what I'd consider legitimate training, and whose eyes (and judgement) I trust, and I am definitely the least of these. There's no point in showing under a judge who doesn't understand the varieties they're judging or doesn't understand the standards, where they come from, and why they are the way they are. You can call yourself a "trained judge" and still be an awful judge.

You also have to be clear about the kind of show you are having. The AFRMA has shows where the mice are clearly bred to set standard and judged based on that standard, and most closely resembles a dog or cat show. The ECMA has similar shows, though the standards themselves are different in a few places. _All_ the other US clubs I've encountered seem more like pet shows, and I want to be clear that that's perfectly OK--it's just a different type of "show" with a different type of results.

I had planned to attend an NMC show next year but it looks like I'm going to have to put it off. School is proving to be much more time-consuming than I'd planned for...


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## Laigaie

To avoid stepping on toes, perhaps we should not pit club against club in conversation.


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## Jack Garcia

That's what I was talking about--it's not really pitting club against club. It's describing the differences, because they do different things.

It's like describing champagne and beer. Both are alcoholic drinks, and there's room for both, but they're different. You can enjoy both though they have different contexts. And it's OK to prefer one over the other (or neither).

I wonder if in the UK there are the equivalent of US pet clubs? The NMC and the LSCRMC are the only two I'm familiar with, but they don't seem like pet clubs...


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## tinyhartmouseries

You are describing other clubs based on your own opinions. I don't think other clubs try to be pet clubs, they have standards and judge mice based on these standards. All mice are of course welcome to enter but they will be judged based on set standards, and pet types may not do very well. 
Your "champagne to beer" comment doesn't exactly smooth over your condescending tone. 
You have a heavy personal bias, so I don't think your personal assessment of other clubs should be taken as fact.


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## Jack Garcia

And that's OK, too. 

Some of the funnest shows I've been to (for various reasons) have been held by the pet clubs. They're not illegitimate clubs or illegitimate shows. But they're different. Perhaps Pepsi VS. Coke is a a more accessible analogy than beer VS. wine. Either works; neither is clearly better or clearly worse, but they're also not the same.

You also have to consider that the various clubs serve different parts of the continent, so there's no way a club based in California could be the same as one based in the Midwest or Northeast.


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## candycorn

Sorry I have to side with Jack here. The only mouse show I have been too clearly was not judged in a standard or trained professional way. It was a "pet show". Not that it can't improve. But it's a known fact that the judge that day was not trained as a judge or had much experience showing herself. 
We desperatly need more people trained as judges. That is THE number one reason the US does not have many shows. In my area of the country for example VA/DC/MD/PA there are at least 6 show mouse breeders who would love to show, but none of us feel trained enough to judge a show. 
How do they teach new judges in the UK. I will say I have noticed that many of the judges overseas have well earned silver locks and have been in the hobby a LONG time, and that is not the case here in the US. But to get new blood in the judging world...do they apprentce? Do they have to prove themselves winners? 
We need enough judges in the US that we can easily rotate and thus allow everyone to show, and thus learn from outside eyes how their stock is doing.


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## Jack Garcia

Thank you, Tara. I like you more and more these days. 

I was trained by a judge who was trained by a judge who was trained in England. That might sound impressive, but I don't think it is because there's so much room for error in the lineage, especially with the passage of years. I consider myself a competent judge--and I have disqualified so many mice that belong to friends and made them pissed at me (lol)--but I am not the best judge and I am not the most experienced, though I am fair. I'm not qualified or experienced enough to train somebody else, though, and I know that. I think it's important to know that.

This thread is about US mouse shows, and you can't have a full, open discussion about US shows without discussing the differences in orientation, procedure, training, so that new people (like the original poster) know what to expect. I'm glad we can discuss this so reasonably without people getting heated or having their feelings hurt!


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## tinyhartmouseries

I don't really think that anyone wants to start the drama of "taking sides", now do we?  I'm simply stating that biased opinions need to be taken with a grain of salt. Also, despite personal dislikes, crap talking doesn't make anyone a better person, or any club a better club.


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## SarahY

NMC judges must have been in the club for three years and are elected by their peers, there is no 'training' as such. If a member who has been active within the club and exhibiting for three years, and obviously knows their stuff, someone will nominate them and the NMC committee will vote. If the committee also feels they'd be a good judge of mice and the vote passes, that member is then a judge.

No, UK doesn't have pet shows. The NMC has been approached this various times but pet shows are against the aims of the club (namely to improve the fancy mouse as a serious exhibit). I have suggested in the past that people who are interested in showing pets start their own club and show their mice, but this hasn't been generally well-received.


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## tinyhartmouseries

So basically, SarahY, there is no elusive or esteemed "training" process, only personal experience/success? Do you have any suggestions as to how the US based clubs could appropriate this practice?


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## Jack Garcia

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I don't really think that anyone wants to start the drama of "taking sides", now do we?  I'm simply stating that biased opinions need to be taken with a grain of salt. Also, despite personal dislikes, crap talking doesn't make anyone a better person, or any club a better club.


Opinions, by their nature, are biased. And this goes for everyone's opinions. That's what opinions _are_.

Was it Eleanor Roosevelt that said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent?" I think that might apply here. Coke doesn't make Pepsi feel inferior. And I will gladly drink both. 



SarahY said:


> No, UK don't have pet shows. The NMC has been approached this various times but pet shows are against the aims of the club (namely to improve the fancy mouse as a serious exhibit). I have suggested in the past that people who are interested in showing pets start their own club and show their mice, but this hasn't been generally well-received.


This is interesting information. Thank you!



tinyhartmouseries said:


> So basically, SarahY, there is no elusive or esteemed "training" process? Do you have any suggestions as to how the US based clubs could appropriate this practice?


I don't think it could be implemented in the US, because only two clubs (the AFRMA and ECMA) have even been around for more than three years.


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## candycorn

I don't think it's crap talking though. I think it's flat out truth. As a matter of fact it was discussed afterwards on the club's forum...that the judging was done without experience and things needed to be very different. It was openly mentioned. No club is being called (at least that I see) less of a club...but one is definatly a NEW club and thus needs experience too. The only reason the club was started in the first place is because shows are so rare in the US and people want an opportunity to show and be around others and most importantly ...TO GROW! It's all about growth. 
Both personally as a breeder...and the clubs as a whole. The newest club will always have the most room for growth. It's the nature of the beast.


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## Jack Garcia

candycorn said:


> The newest club will always have the most room for growth. It's the nature of the beast.


That's a positive way to look at it!


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## tinyhartmouseries

Whatever the case may be, my interests focus mainly on showing in the Midwest. I would like to do whatever I can to make that happen. I don't think the answer is "so sorry, you guys get to drive". I did it. I drove to Ohio/PA once, it was very fun but hard on me and won't be something I do often.
There are about 8 really lovely, interested people here, and the only thing we need is a judge or judging experience. I don't think it would be a bad choice to get something started. The OP is in my area and it looks like that might be her interest as well.


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## Jack Garcia

Why not make arrangements and fly somewhere with judges that you trust, and get some sort of training? Depending upon where it is, it might actually be cheaper than driving.

It would definitely not be as stressful as driving that far (which I've also done)...


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## candycorn

I actually have another thought too. Why not do a small committee type judgeing to start off? Using three members to look at the mice and discuss togeather the pros and cons. This would give some experience and different points of view...and allow small local groups a chance to get together and at least learn. 
No one says a show needs ribbons and trophies...and I personally don't care about that. I care about learning what other people think of my mice and think I need to improve on. To find out what I am doing right and wrong.


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## candycorn

Jack Garcia said:


> Why not make arrangements and fly somewhere with judges that you trust, and get some sort of training? Depending upon where it is, it might actually be cheaper than driving.
> 
> It would definitely not be as stressful as driving that far (which I've also done)...


Everyone chip in 100 bucks and I volunteer to fly to England and watch a show or two then come back and teach!


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## Jack Garcia

You can always ask me. You know I'll be honest and hopefully you trust my competence. 

I have a couple trusted friends I ask about my own mice, what with kennel blindness being what it is...



candycorn said:


> Jack Garcia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not make arrangements and fly somewhere with judges that you trust, and get some sort of training? Depending upon where it is, it might actually be cheaper than driving.
> 
> It would definitely not be as stressful as driving that far (which I've also done)...
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone chip in 100 bucks and I volunteer to fly to England and watch a show or two then come back and teach!
Click to expand...

Put me in your suitcase. You have a very big one, right? :lol:


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## Laigaie

Jack Garcia said:


> This thread is about US mouse shows, and you can't have a full, open discussion about US shows without discussing the differences in orientation, procedure, training, so that new people (like the original poster) know what to expect. I'm glad we can discuss this so reasonably without people getting heated or having their feelings hurt!


Saying you're so glad people can discuss this reasonably is not the same as discussing things reasonably.

If you insist that no other clubs could possibly be considered serious exhibition clubs, and those clubs believe themselves to be, strive to be, and do their best to be, how could you expect folks to not be upset? If I went around saying you weren't a serious breeder, wouldn't you be upset? I mean, really, let's think ahead, here!

I agree that you obviously have a bias. Of course you do. In your position, anyone would. You wouldn't work for less than the best! Who would? It hardly matters, however, if those clubs don't care about the people here in the center of the country.

Younger clubs exist because there was a deficit in the existing clubs. Having shows in the central part of the US is part of that deficit. Just like you wouldn't suggest to a person in Australia that Aussy shows are crap because they can't be compared to NMC shows, there's no sense in arguing with a person in the central US about the clubs that DO want to have shows here. We really don't have options. If you want to change that, plan an ECMA show here! Talk is cheap. Action, however, speaks volumes.


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## Jack Garcia

Laigaie said:


> Saying you're so glad people can discuss this reasonably is not the same as discussing things reasonably.


Everything has been discussed reasonably so far.



Laigaie said:


> If you insist that no other clubs could possibly be considered serious exhibition clubs, and those clubs believe themselves to be, strive to be, and do their best to be, how could you expect folks to not be upset?


I didn't say they can't be serious exhibition clubs; I said they're not currently. And that's OK. They don't have to be. That's what Tara is saying, too (I think), when she mentions all the room they have for growth.



Laigaie said:


> If I went around saying you weren't a serious breeder, wouldn't you be upset? I mean, really, let's think ahead, here!


No, I wouldn't, and if you actually feel that way I encourage you to say so.



Laigaie said:


> I agree that you obviously have a bias. Of course you do. In your position, anyone would. You wouldn't work for less than the best! Who would? It hardly matters, however, if those clubs don't care about the people here in the center of the country.


It's not that we don't care; it's that there's such a huge geographical divide that it's not practical for the clubs I belong to to serve the middle of the country, although procedures do exist to form sub-chapters.



Laigaie said:


> Younger clubs exist because there was a deficit in the existing clubs. Having shows in the central part of the US is part of that deficit.


What happened to the MMC, RMFE, or other Midwest clubs? They all defaulted after a few years and vanished. I think all US mouse clubs can learn from their examples. But that's unfortunately the track record for that part of the country, and I hope you can break the pattern and are holding shows in 20 years.



Laigaie said:


> Just like you wouldn't suggest to a person in Australia that Aussy shows are crap because they can't be compared to NMC shows, there's no sense in arguing with a person in the central US about the clubs that DO want to have shows here.


I wouldn't suggest anybody's show is "crap." That's your word. You seem to be responding to what you expect to read rather than what you've actually read. Consider taking a step back.



Laigaie said:


> We really don't have options.


We agree that this is the problem.



Laigaie said:


> If you want to change that, plan an ECMA show here! Talk is cheap. Action, however, speaks volumes.


The ECMA is already the farthest-ranging club in the country, having held shows or other events over a radius of thousands of miles in different parts of the country. There's always a chance that things can extend a bit farther West, so stay tuned!


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## MojoMouse

If I may throw in an opinion here, it seems like assumtions are being made based on personality clashes. To an outsider to this discussion it seems clear that what's being suggested is that "formal" established shows are closer to the NMC tradition, and looking to develop that way. Pet shows are different - not better or worse, just different. If a club is starting, a pet show may be the "more accessible" way to go in the early stages. It can then evolve into a well established, popular pet show, or aspire to the more formal procedures of the NMC model. Both are good, but as has been pointed out, different.

I don't understand what the mouse club politics are like in the US, but every country (and every hobby) has them.

It would be very difficult, if not impossible, though, to start a club that is like the NMC simply because there isn't the history, the tradition and the experience. That takes time, and many years, and needs a high level of procedure and respect.

In the short time I've been on this forum I've seen how Jack can be contentious. Funnily enough, it's not actually what he says but how people interpret what he says. Personally, I actually think that when he makes a comment, there really isn't any undertones (well, mostly not). He just says what he thinks. If he's offfering to help in any way, I'm surprised if people don't jump at it. I genuinely believe that he would be a fair and honest judge, and would help a new club get established in whatever way he could.

On a different note, have you thought about some teleconferencing with some experienced and respected mouse experts in the UK? This could help new and potential US judges with how they approach their responsibilities.

Or, given the distances involved in the US, here's something a bit more out there... Have a formation of small groups, located at various meeting points that people can get to. The point is that these are real world gatherings that meet up together (for the social support side of things). They are part of a larger show, though. So, when it comes to judging, have the small groups come together via internet link ups. This could have some potential, and you could have access to a high calibre of judge, or a judging panel. This would need some agreement as to training, standards, etc, as well as a lot of good faith. The new judges would also need some intial guidance.

There would be practicalities involved to present the mouse to be judged on line. To do this you'd a reasonable vid camera and a standard light arrangement. You'd also need a standardised, measured plan for a mouse stand. It could have a grid (cm or inches) as a back drop for size reference, and the stand itself would be an electronic scale. The mouse could be observed on this platform, manually postioned to show front view, then manhandled around a bit to show the sides. A tail lift maneouvre by the official wrangler could show the belly.

Of course, it wouldn't compare to a mouse being judged in person. But - again, a case of being diffferent, with different criteria.

It would help with the distance difficulties you face. And if a good time could be set, taking into consideration the different timezones, then you could have quite an online event. Each local group would get together, of course, so it wouldn't be like people were alone and disconnected in their homes.

Coming to think of it, you could combine the location specific events which could have a localised level of competition, but then take the category winners and put them in the online comp to find the national category winners, as well as crowning the Most Supreme And Perfect Mouse In The Whole Of The USA. 

Different? Sure. Definitely not NMC!!! :lol: But - it could evolve into a regular event, especially if the judging panel was rotated around the different locations. Most importantly, it could be an innovative way to get some interest in mouse shows around your country.

I'm just thinking aloud here. Well, not really, I'm actually quietly typing. But it's something I've been wondering about for Australia. We have a lot of the same issues as you guys have.


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## Jack Garcia

MojoMouse said:


> If I may throw in an opinion here, it seems like assumtions are being made based on personality clashes.


Yes. This is called argumentum ad hominem. It's when somebody attacks the person rather than addressing the issue itself. It's not always intentional, either, so a lot of people fall into it without even realizing it.

A good test for whether or not you're using it online is this:

Cover up the person's name and avatar with your hand, and pretend for a second that somebody you really like wrote what you're reading. Ask yourself whether you'd respond in the same way. If there is any doubt, you're using ad hominem instead of actually addressing the issues.



> To an outsider to this discussion it seems clear that what's being suggested is that "formal" established shows are closer to the NMC tradition, and looking to develop that way. Pet shows are different - not better or worse, just different.


Thank you. That's right.



> In the short time I've been on this forum I've seen how Jack can be contentious. Funnily enough, it's not actually what he says but how people interpret what he says.


You must not have gotten the memo, so I'll reiterate--I'm sick, cruel, and evil, and the only reason I am here is to attack people. I'm an ogre, and I like the taste of blood.



> Personally, I actually think that when he makes a comment, there really isn't any undertones (well, mostly not). He just says what he thinks. If he's offfering to help in any way, I'm surprised if people don't jump at it. I genuinely believe that he would be a fair and honest judge, and would help a new club get established in whatever way he could.


Thank you.


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## MojoMouse

What about the idea? I think there's a germ of potential for something innovative and exciting there. Maybe nothing like what I've suggested in practicalities, but...


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## Jack Garcia

I don't have Skype because I'm old-fashioned, but I'll help in any way I can, including regular telephone calls.

The ECMA has had online events in the past and will in the future. I think of them as "mouse shows lite" in a sense because there's some stuff you can't judge via a photograph and you rely more on people's good faith (which is usually not a problem).

There won't be any sort of clubs communicating and then offering up a national winner because that's what the AFRMA and ECMA already do in their own ways, just for different parts of the country. I think that's also what the newer, inexperienced clubs are aiming for, too (though I could be wrong)...

From one end of the country to the other (NOT including Alaska and Hawaii) and back, the US is over 6,000 miles in one trip, so it's really difficult to coordinate the whole country on anything. Have you seen our elections?


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## Gracegarden

Just throwing out some ideas here -- In the dog show world judges must have bred a certain number of champions (regardless of who the owner/handler is) and must take a written test specializing in at least two different breeds in order to be considered for election.
There are agreed upon, written standards and dogs are judged against the standard, not other dogs in the ring.
Judges are usually hired for their breed specialties, but it is not unheard of for them to judge outside their specialty.

Jack -- what is this "sub-chapter" of which you speak? And how can we look into (creating?) this for the Midwest?

When I asked about the frequency of shows recently "someone" responded with the possibility of an Oklahoma show in the next few months. While it would be quite nice to have a show so close, I no longer feel comfortable with this person since "advanced funding" for the show seemed to be a necessity. Perhaps if there was a registered club with a trusted secretary, or maybe two different unrelated people that had to sign for the account?

The breed clubs I've belonged to held people accountable for their actions, especially regarding funds and fund-raising.

Speaking of fund-raising, is that something we can consider for our "sub-chapter?" Membership fees, donations, auctions, sale of cage accessories, special occasion cards, cups, bags, etc.


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## MojoMouse

Fair enough, it was just a thought. I was suggesting live video link rather than submitted photos though, because that levels the playing field.

Yes, I've followed many of your elections. They are HUGE events that roll around the country for months. They're scary! :lol:


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## Gracegarden

MojoMouse said:


> What about the idea? I think there's a germ of potential for something innovative and exciting there. Maybe nothing like what I've suggested in practicalities, but...


I do like the idea of regional get-togethers. If nothing else, they can be used as practice shows, educational. They can be under the guise of a pet-type show with the option of displaying the typiest, or winningiest mouse under our best imitation of show standards (Do you like how I made up the words?) :?

Help us, O Great and Mighty Jack. (And others!)


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## Jack Garcia

Gracegarden said:


> Jack -- what is this "sub-chapter" of which you speak? And how can we look into (creating?) this for the Midwest?


It depends on which club. For the AFRMA, you'd email [email protected] and ask; for the ECMA you'd email [email protected]; I _think _the AFRMA is closer to you guys, but I'm not certain with the geography.



Gracegarden said:


> When I asked about the frequency of shows recently "someone" responded with the possibility of an Oklahoma show in the next few months. While it would be quite nice to have a show so close, I no longer feel comfortable with this person since "advanced funding" for the show seemed to be a necessity.


I know who you're talking about, and I wouldn't trust her either. Also be careful of others who condone that sort of stuff.



Gracegarden said:


> Perhaps if there was a registered club with a trusted secretary, or maybe two different unrelated people that had to sign for the account?


There are two people in charge of the ECMA, me and Jenny. No matter what, though, we always are in the hole for shows and events. I can't imagine a scenario where one of us (or someone else) didn't pay most of the bills personally, but it must always be voluntary. A couple of us have been very blessed to be able to do this, but financial donations and fundraising (we always hold raffles and door prizes) helps, too.


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## SarahY

Just because you may find it interesting, in the NMC members take it upon themselves to hold a show. They pay the rent for the hall, usually put on lunch, and fund everything out of their own pocket. WoodWitch, SarahC and I pay for and run our show in our area, and although we do expect to make a loss this year that's OK with us. So it's not the NMC that has to pay for everything, it's whomever decides they need a show in their area.


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## Gracegarden

Interesting, Sarah. That could be a way to get started.


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## Jack Garcia

SarahY said:


> Just because you may find it interesting, in the NMC members take it upon themselves to hold a show. They pay the rent for the hall, usually put on lunch, and fund everything out of their own pocket. WoodWitch, SarahC and I pay for and run our show in our area, and although we do expect to make a loss this year that's OK with us. So it's not the NMC that has to pay for everything, it's whomever decides they need a show in their area.


That's actually the way it works with the ECMA, too. The reason we have more shows in TN is because that's where the person doing must of the funding lives. Membership fees only cover something like a few percentage points of the overall costs.

The overall costs can easily run into the hundreds of dollars, plus travel fees (which are also in the hundreds of dollars).


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## Gracegarden

To anyone reading this thread in the midwest -- I have sent for information from AFRMA and ECMA regarding our hope of opening a chapter and having shows in our region in the near future.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I am interested in organizing venues, keeping track of names/information, and I could handmake ribbons and prizes with little to no overhead. There's really no need to spend $150 on ribbons. 

If anyone is interested in just starting this process off with perhaps a group meetup, swap, or even a low level mouse eval, I've done meetups in OKC several times. IF we can find a date that as many people as possible can make, it would be nice to get a group together when it cools down, perhaps in August before most colleges are back in session. Please PM me if you are in the area and have suggestions on dates and times. It doesn't have to be anything scary or official, or affiliated with anyone for now. It would just be nice to create a core group of Midwesterners. I've been trying to do this for a while now, but last time I tried there was only about 4 people. Now, there are several more, I'd like to meet as many of them as possible.


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## candycorn

I could volunteer to make a mouse trophy!


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## Frizzle

Ooh, that sounds really cool! I've got a brief window during the end of August that encompasses weekdays.

Edit: You know, if we're throwing dates out there.


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## Jack Garcia

I am actually in the Midwest (or on the border, depending on who you ask), too. I live in Louisville, Kentucky, which is on the border of southern Indiana.

I'm attending an ECMA event in August, and I might be driving to Georgia at some point in the next couple of months. That's still in the planning stages, however...


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## tinyhartmouseries

I think the majority of us tend to be about 3-5 hours from OKC. I think that's a smart place to start/continue meeting. We can talk about other places too.

I know it will be far for some, especially you, Frizzle, if you do decide to come, but everyone is more than welcome under the condition that it will be rather low key, and not affiliated with any particular party just yet. I'd ideally like to have several successful meetups before a club or subclub is considered, after all, as Jack mentioned, yes, the Midwest has a habit of petering out. I've been breeding for 4 years and already seen some fairly committed people come and go.


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## Jack Garcia

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I'd ideally like to have several successful meetups before a club or subclub is considered


This is a good idea.


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## Gracegarden

Are we thinking OK City? (I am four hours south of Dallas)

I'm curious how we can secure a meeting place if none of us are in the area. Will we meet in a hotel room? I, for one, will definitely be staying the night.
I suppose we could use my room, if necessary. We could even leave any livestock there while we go to dinner and/or meet in the lounge area (just throwing some ideas out there.)


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## tinyhartmouseries

That's a great idea Grace. I was going to suggest a hotel room. If that wasn't to be the case, I would have just called around to ballrooms and public use buildings in that area.
Does OKC work alright for you? Is there a place that would be better. It's 4 hours from me, and about as much from Laigaie. I'll be bringing Littlelovesmousery with me too.


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## Jack Garcia

Depending on how many people you have, a hotel room can become really cramped with all those animals and people, and some hotels that allow pets DON'T actually allow mice and can turn you away when they see four or five people carrying mouse cages in, so those are things to think about (if you haven't already).

Also, some hotels have conference rooms which are relatively cheap depending on their location and time of year. I attended a show held in a conference room before. Sometimes, if you rent the conference room, the hotel will give you discounted group rates for the actual rooms you sleep in...


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## candycorn

hotels can get pretty pricey though and like Jack said, can be weird if you say it's mice or any sort of rodent. 
I highly recommend you look into VFW or American Legion halls too. Usually they rent them dirt cheap and you can just say its for a small animal show or a pocket pets meeting. As long as everyone cleans up after, that would be a great idea. I rented a AL hall for 75 dollars to host a multihome yardsale. Well worth the dough!


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## Jack Garcia

Those are good ideas. You might also look into renting a farmer's market space. Some of them have indoor spaces where you can rent a room cheaply. Oklahoma is so hot, so if you go that route, be sure to confirm that it's air conditioned (they're not always).

You might also consider a church activities room. You can find these really cheap, sometimes, too, but the problem there is that they're not usually advertised so you have to know somebody. You might literally go down the phone book and call churches. The smaller ones sometimes have a room that's available to the public to rent cheaply, but nobody really knows about it because they don't advertise.

If you find a place and keep meeting there five or six times, you'll develop a strong relationship with the venue, and it'll become easier to plan things in the long-run.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Good ideas all, thank you. I want to direct further discussion regarding specifics to the facebook group page. It will be easier to keep it all in one place, because some interested parties are from wholly different forums. I hope to see you on facebook, interested parties!


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## Cait

MojoMouse said:


> On a different note, have you thought about some teleconferencing with some experienced and respected mouse experts in the UK? This could help new and potential US judges with how they approach their responsibilities.


This bit seems to have gotten buried in people's excitement...

This seems like a great idea to me. If you could get a group of judges together in the UK, and those interested in becoming judges in the US, having a teleconference could be a good way of sharing the knowledge in a more personal way. I'm not even saying that any mice have to be present, just a Q&A to start with, basic judging techniques and so on. I'm used to having conference calls with the US through my work, but I know some people can be shy of them - however I don't see many of the NMC judges I can think of as shy, that's for certain :lol: I wonder if there would be a way to get the facility at a UK show, perhaps through a laptop connection? That's the way you'd get the best cross-section of experience.

At work it depends which of our US colleagues we're talking to as to the time we speak, but usually around 4pm UK time is do-able for them.


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## tinyhartmouseries

That is a very fantastic idea!


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## Shadowrunner

the baltimore bird fanciers used the meeting room in the public library for monthly meetings.
I see no reason why a small show or get together couldn't fit somewhere similar.

also since tara brought it up....
Im not a member of any club but I'll make ribbons if they are needed . I'm really good at that sort of thing.


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## Frizzle

Has this been posted on any other forums, or just here?


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## Gracegarden

Our plans have been posted on Mouse Connection, as well. And we also have a FB page to more easily arrange a specific date.


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## Jack Garcia

Not everybody uses facebook or any of the given forums, so might the conversation be better centralized in one place, such as an email list? Everybody does have email (they must, in order to register for any of the aforementioned)...


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## tinyhartmouseries

I'm on top of it for now, I promise. Everyone interested has contacted me directly, and so far everyone has facebook. If someone approaches me without it, I'll update them personally.

I've posted a thread and a link on: FMB, TFM, ML, and TMC. Any other forums that need it?


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