# Feeding Snakes (Split from "Why do you breed?")



## Velvet_Meece

MoonfallTheFox said:


> so many suffering to snakes.


Care to explain what this is supposed to mean?


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## MoonfallTheFox

I know- I am also a snake keeper. I would never allow her food to suffer. However, I've met many who do and it makes me really sad.


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## SarahC

MoonfallTheFox said:


> I know- I am also a snake keeper. I would never allow her food to suffer. However, I've met many who do and it makes me really sad.


Ok,thank you for clarifying.


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## Viry

MoonfallTheFox said:


> I know- I am also a snake keeper. I would never allow her food to suffer. However, I've met many who do and it makes me really sad.


That's fair enough. I don't want anyone to suffer, person or animal, so it's totally understandable.


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## SarahC

I can't think of any feeder breeders on here that don't have an interest in their mice as well as reptiles.They choose to breed their own so that they can be sure the mice have had decent treatment.Most prefer not to buy frozen feeders of unknown origin even though it would shield them from performing the unpleasant task of culling.They breed their own because they do care.


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## MoonfallTheFox

Yeah, should have clarified. I know snakes have to eat, and I have no problem with that. I would never expect Curses to starve or eat carrots or something. She's a snake, she needs once-living things to survive and be healthy, so that's what I give her. My problem is live feeding, which seems unnessecary and cruel to me. When I said that I was referring to pet stores specifically, and how they sell mice as live food and treat them with no respect.

But, snake food breeding is okay with me. I don't like death but snakes need food, and as long as the mice are happy while they live and killed without excess suffering and fear, I am not going to complain, especially in the case of babies or youngsters too weak to live good lives.


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## Shadowrunner

you handled that well moonfall...

We talk all the time on another site, with other members of this forum as well.
She does indeed treat her animals with dedication, and she doesn't breed.
Lol that said, I wish I knew as much as she does about them in such detail.
It's hard to be a knowledgeable nonbreeder and still interact.
Most pet owners are not as passionate about their mice as they could be, or don't know the finer details because pets can do decently on a substandard diet. Breeders have to know things pet owners don't in order to keep stock healthy under stressing situations such as raising babies. I breed to better the mice I have, that way I can -try- to limit suffering due to reckless breeding and health issues.I hope to contribute to the fancy, maybe one perfect day healthy mice will be the norm. and mill mice will be far and few between.I think Moonfall and I are on opposite sides of the same goal, to limit unnecessary suffering.

on snake food, I have had snakes in the past. One was a rescue suffering from advanced belly rot and abscesses from mice who had fought as they went down. It's not pretty for either party. So on live feeding I would agree in all aspects. It's cruel.


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## Velvet_Meece

I wouldn't go as far as saying live feeding is cruel. After all wild snakes eat live food, its completely natural.

However, i do agree that its totally unnecessary on both snake and livefoods behalf because 90% of snakes in captivity eat defrost or fresh kill and therefore it is simply not worth putting either parties health at risk, and certainly not for entertainment purposes which is what really makes me angry.


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## Laigaie

The problem with the livefeed issue, I feel, is that there are some reptiles who simply refuse to eat non-live food. If you've ever owned any of the more difficult herps, you'll know that getting the idiots to jolly well eat is sometimes half of herp-keeping. While, certainly, humanely euthanized feed is always safer for the mouse and the snake, there are and will always be some snakes who simply refuse to eat non-live food.

Of the three turtles kept in my home, our male mud turtle is our best eater. He will eat absolutely anything. Our female will eat anything that moves, so any floating food is acceptable, since her water has a slight current. Our snapper, however, will only eat certain pellets and live food. For the first year we had her, pellets weren't acceptable. It was only after she'd escaped, wandered about the house for a WEEK, and been recaptured, that she decided she'd accept pellets. Other than pellets, she gets live goldfish and crayfish. They're economical, and I have no moral misgivings about the pain of a goldfish. If she needed live pinkies, I'd have trouble. I'm not sure what I'd do.


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## MoonfallTheFox

My problem is that, without doubt, mice feel pain when they die to a snake. Sometimes seeing my girl eat makes me want to cry, and what she eats isn't feeling pain. She has incredible power in those 10.5 inches of muscle and seeing a once living thing so thoroughly destroyed makes me hurt for those who aren't killed beforehand. I think fresh-killing is better than live, even if I wish everyone would just euthanise.

And yes, a small few will not take dead food. IMO, any snake will if it's hungry enough. I converted a wild gopher snake to frozen with 2 feedings. IF everything has been tried, and the snake refuses even fresh killed, that is the -only- time live is acceptable. Even then I dislike it. Many keepers feed live because they think it's cool to see an animal die, or to "see nature". Nature still happens when the animal being eaten is dead, it's still being eaten the same way. :/ However, no snake should ever be forced to die a slow death of starvation to prevent suffering. Even stunning the mice beforehand helps, and they do suffer less in the time they die than a snake does when it is forced to starve, but only when everything's been tried should a snake eat live because it plain isn't nessecary.

@whomever said "it's nature". Yeah, it is. But, as humans, when we bring animals into our homes, I think it is our responsibility to make nature as kind as possible. The natural world is not kind. I've been face to face with the more dredful aspects of it many times. I don't expect snakes in the wild to line up at my door once a week to accept dead mice, but those in our homes can be healthy and happy with pre-killed or F/T food, and I don't believe in unnessecary suffering in any situation, ever. Not in mice, not in crickets, not in anything. (I behead crickets, depending what I am feeding them to. I always behead them to feed mantids, who can be plain cruel sometimes and I don't like to see a living thing struggling while being eaten from the wrong end, especially since a few of my praying mantis' have been the type to eat half then leave the rest. And live crickets can kill mantids. I lost a favorite boy that way, even though I warne the person watching him. I'd had him since he hatched. >.<)

Sorry if I offend anyone. And if I'm being off topic just tell me please and I'll shut my trap.


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## kittygirl991

i dont realy like live feeding either... my mum has a snake, and its tank is next to my room, many a time it has escaped, god knows how, and it has gone in my room, luckily not once has it preyed on my mice, hamsters, or rats, it seems to like going behind my tv cabinet instead :/ but anyway... ovbiously it has to be fed but me and my mum hate giving it poor mice :L i dont like the thought of killing my babies or feeding them live to the snake because well, i have had the mice as pets and the cute lil babies who have just come into the world, there first breath to be taken away...


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## Laigaie

While I understand that feeling, certainly, I would rather provide fresh mice who had been able to live well, who were healthy, and who have not been brought into this world through suffering, than have my snake people purchase mass-produced often nasty decayed mice from companies.


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## PPVallhunds

we had some frozen rats come into work once from a new source that was cheap and all has surgical insusions down there stomachs  They went straight in the bin god knows what happened to them. Also ive noticed my pinkies are normaly twice the size of the suplyers pinkies


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## MoonfallTheFox

Yeah, many of the pinkies I get are very small, but Curses is also small.

And oh, my. I've never heard of anything of that sort happening before.


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## Laigaie

Incisions? :shock: I'm used to stores of fur falling out, gooey eyes, nasty smells when thawed, but I hadn't heard of animals who'd actually been cut open! :sick


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## hlforumhl

I feed my snakes live only as long as it takes to convert them to dead. Some of my snakes, especially young ball pytons and wild-caught snakes take a while to convert to dead. But I convert them as soon as possible so the mice don't suffer and so my snakes are not at risk of being bitten.


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## hlforumhl

I started breeding because I was unimpressed with the mice that my snakes were getting from mouse suppliers...they were often overcrowded, overbred, and without hiding spaces or wheels or anything to ocupy their minds. I know that mice don't need a lot, but a hide box is pretty basic. Also, the mice were not fed a diet that I felt was good enough for my snakes. So I began breeding. Even from the begining, though, I wanted to show my mice...so I guess I started breeding for two reasons then...


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## hlforumhl

This question is a little off topic, but...does anyone know if it is safe to feed spiny mice to snakes? I produce a lot of standard spinies when attempting to breed for satin, and I just sometimes get too many. I would hate to kill them just for the sake of killing them, but they get overcrowded because I can't rehome them quickly enough--and satin and satin carrier spinies have issues with tail-eating, which is NOT good for over-crowded mice...it turns into a bloodbath  and I just can't stand to see them suffer. I turned some over to a rescue, but I don't want to have to rely on other people taking care of my responsibilities and problems. I have 20 snakes, though, and that would be a perfect solution...but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Would the spines hurt the snakes' throats? And would the snakes willingly eat fancy mice again after being fed spinies? Right now, I have taken the time to get my situation under control where I can sufficiently care for each of the mice I own, but I want to know for when I start breeding again, so I can keep a handle on things.


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## Velvet_Meece

hlforumhl said:


> This question is a little off topic, but...does anyone know if it is safe to feed spiny mice to snakes? I produce a lot of standard spinies when attempting to breed for satin, and I just sometimes get too many. I would hate to kill them just for the sake of killing them, but they get overcrowded because I can't rehome them quickly enough--and satin and satin carrier spinies have issues with tail-eating, which is NOT good for over-crowded mice...it turns into a bloodbath  and I just can't stand to see them suffer. I turned some over to a rescue, but I don't want to have to rely on other people taking care of my responsibilities and problems. I have 20 snakes, though, and that would be a perfect solution...but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Would the spines hurt the snakes' throats? And would the snakes willingly eat fancy mice again after being fed spinies? Right now, I have taken the time to get my situation under control where I can sufficiently care for each of the mice I own, but I want to know for when I start breeding again, so I can keep a handle on things.


I often wondered the same thing when presented with this problem, but i decided not to risk it. 
Providing the snake ate the mouse head first i can't see why it would be a problem, but a lot of my snakes do eat their mice tail first and that is where the risk is, also if a snake tried to regurgitate the mouse also.
I even plucked the back end of a spiny once to see if that would suffice, but they do have smaller spaced out spines all over the body. I decided against it and discarded of them.


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## Rhasputin

It is safe to feed spiny mice to snakes, but it is imperative that you make sure they eat them head first.


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## candycorn

I got rodents from RodentPro once that all had severed heads.....dear god! I said no to ordering from them again. 
I go with American Rodent or The Mouse Factory for my frozen needs.


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## hlforumhl

Rhasputin said:


> It is safe to feed spiny mice to snakes, but it is imperative that you make sure they eat them head first.


What would happen if the snake regurgitates the spiny mouse?


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## MoonfallTheFox

Ah! That's not good.

Uh, so you don't reccomend rodentpro then?

I need to get an order of pinkies soon.


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## Rhasputin

hlforumhl said:


> Rhasputin said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is safe to feed spiny mice to snakes, but it is imperative that you make sure they eat them head first.
> 
> 
> 
> What would happen if the snake regurgitates the spiny mouse?
Click to expand...

Hah, good point. I've seen people feed them, and they put emphasis on feeding them head first (the best way anyways, even with normal mice) but I have no idea. 

You could always pluck out the quills if you wanted to not waste the spiny.


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## Cait

I now have visions of someone taking a ladyshave to dead mice :lol: :shock:


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## MoonfallTheFox

You almost could... might make it easier for the snake to digest, too. Fur isn't very digestible.


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## hlforumhl

I should try that


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## MoonfallTheFox

Not a bad idea. Then, also, any culls you fed to snakes you could still keep the coat of for a color reference. You could have it in baggies, labelled in sharpie.


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## Laigaie

So... skin it first, then feed it? Get maximum use out of each and every mouse?


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## MoonfallTheFox

You -could- do that, but I meant, if you shaved the coat, you could keep the shaved off fur as a reference to color. Not markings, but it's a start.

I would think feeding a snake something which was skinned could get a bit too messy for me.


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## Rhasputin

MoonfallTheFox said:


> You -could- do that, but I meant, if you shaved the coat, you could keep the shaved off fur as a reference to color. Not markings, but it's a start.
> 
> I would think feeding a snake something which was skinned could get a bit too messy for me.


Shaving the mouse and saving the fur wouldn't help at all. You have to see the hairs lined up on the skin to know the true colour of a mouse. 

My cat has white and gray fur, but when we brush him, it's just a pile of dull gray fur. Same with my tri colour corgi. Black, orange, and white fur, all just mixes to gray.


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## MoonfallTheFox

Ah. Nevermind that then.
I've never shaved a mouse before. Haha.


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## hlforumhl

It may be time consuming...so I had better be prepared!
But I just can't bring myself to waste the mice. It seems too much to bring an animal into the world to kill without purpose...


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## Velvet_Meece

hlforumhl said:


> It seems too much to bring an animal into the world to kill without purpose...


Surely keeping a snake well fed is a purpose in itself? afterall a snake needs food to live


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## PPVallhunds

Laigaie said:


> So... skin it first, then feed it? Get maximum use out of each and every mouse?


I tryed this with a guinea pig, i was using it for taxidermy and thought why not feed the body to the boa's but they wouldnt touched it as it had been skinned.


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## Frizzle

... mm, guinea pig... lol, don't ppl eat those somewhere?


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## laoshu

Joking aside I would never recommend feeding a spiny mouse to a snake, It was mentioned that fur is not easy to digest and this would go for the spines as well regardless to which way round the snake ate the mouse... it still has a long way to go before it comes out the other end and I would never risk it at all.

On the subject of live feeding I see noting wrong with it "IF" its needed and only IF..... Snakes have evolved to be good at killing in the best possible way and make a much better job at it than say a lion fetching down a bison!

Any one that doesn't agree with it that's fine but ask your self this...
Do you have chicken in your fridge/freezer? these are usually hung upside down for a while "live" whilst going round on a belt BEFORE they get the quick sharp shock. I personally dont think that whole scenario is a fast as a snake can kill a rodent!
What about the other meat? what do they go through before they get to the final stop!?

dont eat meat ? ... ok ...
do you own a dog/cat? these eat meat just like snakes do although we prepare meat for them. I wonder if the butcher can kill a large farm animal from start to finish as quick as a snake can kill a rodent. Having seen both I know who is the most expert in their game.

There is big risks though with live feeding even if you really have to so anyone that does it for fun needs their head looking at in my opinion.
Death is never a easy thing and its not meant to be nice but knowing the facts is important. In this case I feel live feeding is no worse for the rodent but is more damaging for the snake!


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## hlforumhl

> Surely keeping a snake well fed is a purpose in itself? afterall a snake needs food to live


I meant that I can't bring myself to cull mice if they're not going to be used to feed snakes


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## Mark

I cull to feed - 
A friends snake
Wild hedgehogs
Magpies, Crows ect

As for live feeding im niether against or for it, i understand at sometimes its a must and id rather a snake be fed and gradually weaned off than starve to death which is why i gave up my sand boa after a expensive lesson of being scammed ended up beinf a wild caught snake [email protected]

Edit to add: Boris my bearded dragon gets the odd pinkie every now and then.


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## Emfa Mouse

See, my problem with live feeding is that I heard a story that a person went to a petshop and wanted a mouse as a pet, and another wanted it as a feeder. The petshop helper gave it to the person who wanted it as a feeder.


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## Laigaie

The feeder customer is a regular, repeat customer. Someone with a snake eating mice has been in many times before and will be back over and over again. They'll take whatever mice you have, no matter what they look like. The pet customer is almost always a one-off customer who might come back for their feed, or might buy it elsewhere. I understand with the employee's split-moment decision, even if I disagree with it.


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## Velvet_Meece

I have had to livefeed in the past, i'll admit to that, i've had success in weaning fussy eaters onto defrost in many cases. I did however have one snake (unknown to me at purchase) that was a strict livefeeder only, i fed it on multi's, managed to get it to take one fresh kill once, but i decided i couldn't go on doing it, and so rehomed the snake to someone who was willing to put more time and money into more advanced methods of weaning.

I've cut down on my snakes dramatically since last year though and only kept my great eaters who will eat anything.

I know that weaning snakes can only be a good thing, but when you don't have to bother anymore, it does take a weight off your shoulders and also the guilt.


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