# current colors



## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

Ok so i randomly picked cute mice for my breeding program but i think i might want to just perfect a few colors instead of having a bunch of misfits (i guess you could call them)

My current setup:

Does:

Black Shorthair (pink feet/pink tail)
BlueTan Satin Angora (spot on tail/ poor color im told)
Pied Agouti Brindle Shorthair ( not sure but looks ok marking wise) - may throw angoras
Pied Dove Satin (dark color/ nice markings)- may throw angoras
Chestnut/ Golden Agouti Shorthair (decent color i think)

Bucks:

Seal Point Himilayan (possible pied/ possible fox)- poor point markings
Black Fox (spotting)

I do plan on going to buy 1 XL feeder doe to help with size in my lines.

I like the foxes, tans, brindles, and.... well ok i like all of them but if i try to keep all of them i will be in deep doo doo with my "husband" (this is in quotes as our friends say we might as well be married lol). But i would kind of like to improve on some of my colors i have pics posted of them all in the new and existing forum "my adult meece". I dont plan to buy any more stock for now i want to work with what i have and cull harshly as i only have so much room right now.


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

I know it will take hard work and i should get show mice but i like challenges and want to see what i can do on my own from mostly scratch first.

I think the "groups" considered are

Himi, Black, Black Fox, Blue Tan

Brindle Agouti, Golden Agouti, and... i dont know which buck if either

And that leaves the Dove.... which i like her ears and the satin but.... i dont know if she truly "fits in" with my schemes. 
And the PEW- which will increase my size but may mess with colors....

Please be honest and i will take all suggestions no matter how "harsh" they are.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Almost all of those varieties are incompatible with one or more of the others. What do you want to do? Right now, everything you've listed seems pretty scattered.

Buying a feeder mouse to help with anything is pretty absurd, though. You'll really need to invest in show mice if you want to make consistent improvements of any kind. I know that's not the answer you want people to give you, but it's unfortunately the truth.


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

Sooo...

Black cant be bred to himi to improve on point darkening
Black cant be bred to Black Fox
Black Fox cant be bred to Blue Tan

And the brindle agouti and golden agouti dont go together even tho they are both agoutis?

And yes like i said i know i should get show mice but i want to see what i can do on my own before buying already established show stock from someone.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Black cant be bred to himi to improve on point darkening


It can, but the black doe is really the only doe compatible with your Himalayan buck.



> Black cant be bred to Black Fox
> Black Fox cant be bred to Blue Tan


Again, black fox is compatible with blue tan and black, if you're working towards black and blue foxes, but that's it out of your list.

It's a question with a vast scope for answers to be honest. What do you want from your mice? We can't tell you what to breed but if you tell us what you're aiming for we can advise you how to get there!

Sarah xxx


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I would be interested to know whether or not an XL feeder mouse *would* actually improve the size of the babies... I don't know about over there, but here in the UK, XL feeder animals are fed hormones to make them bigger, its not really genetic.

If you do add this XL doe to your lines, i would be interested to see the resulting litters, as to wheter the babies do end up bigger or just the litter size is more.

K xx


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

lol.... i guess my only answer to that is.... i have no idea. :lol:

I guess i want larger mice and a smaller scope of colors to work on because i like them all and as i said i cant keep them all and if i just get a mix mash of colors i throw together i will get a lot of poor colored mice. but i guess it really doesnt make a difference about that as there arent really any shows this side of the states. Plus im gearing toward pet/feeder mice anyway not the majestic show stock that everyone here has. so really i have no idea what i am trying to accomplish with my topic other than find out what colors i have that are compatible for the most part and which ones i should just forget about trying to do. then again im somewhat curious as to what i will get from breeding different spectrums of colors together. As all the mice i own in my lines have a blank background that i am working with. its not like the mice i would get from a breeder that has all siamese or all fox in the background.

Truthfully i guess i wanted something to work towards so it makes it more exciting.


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

@ Willow-

Thanks i never thought about them being given additives and horomone changes... hmmm i my just go today and pick one up as right now all my mice are slowly getting smaller lol

I picked out some big ones and as i pick out others the mice just shrink my first mouse was a decent size and my last mouse i got is like 1/2 to 3/4 their size lol


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Well, here are the easiest options for you:

Black Fox: Black Fox buck bred with your blue tan and your black self. This will give you black tans. Keep about four does in each litter and breed them back to dad when they're old enough to get more black foxes.

Siamese/Himalayan: Himalayan bred with black self, which will probably make all blacks; breed these does back to dad.

Agouti: Either buck to your golden agouti, this will make agoutis in the first generation and I'd recommend keeping at least one agouti buck from these pairings to work with. This buck can then be bred with your black to make even more agoutis.

Because your females are all so different, whatever you decide you'll only have one or two does to work with unfortunately.

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

> Siamese/Himalayan: Himalayan bred with black self, which will probably make all blacks; breed these does back to dad.


unfortunately or fortunately i have already done this breeding and the result was
1 Black Fox (w/ spotting)
2 Blacks
1 low white pied black
3 himi/ PEW (not sure yet as i have heard point come later)

Soooo... since i will be experimenting anyway with the XL white feeder to determine if its genetics or horomone additives...
Are there possibly colors that havent been discovered yet when it comes to mice?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Then your Himalayan is not a fox; as a fox is a chinchillated tan you'd have had tans in that litter. But, if he is or carries piebald, that adds another one your list. Breed him with all your piebald ladies to make black and agouti piebald.

If you want to carry on with Siamese/Himalayan line, discard the spotted ones and breed the black self and Himalayan/PEW does back to their dad for more. Then you can cull all of the blacks as pinkies because they will have black eyes, leaving you with a load of Himalayan/PEW mice to work with.

Of course there's a possibility there haven't been colours discovered, but you'd probably be unlikely to find one these days though.

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

ok. then howd i get a black fox? was it just a coincidence?

arent blacks supposed to have black eyes?

so i am gathering i should stop with the dove as she doesnt fit into any of the equations. Or could i breed her to my black fox? her color is poor already and i know breeding black to her would only darken it further on the pups.

darn i thought maybe i had a slim chance lol


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

:lol: No, I meant you can see which ones will be black when they are pinkies because they will be the ones with black eyes, then you can cull them, leaving you with only the pink eyed PEWs and Himalayans :lol:

I would suspect your black fox is a black piebald type thing. It's possible, if your black doe carried chinchilla genes then you'd get foxes, it's just unlikely in your case.

You can breed your dove if want, no-one will stop you :lol: She's piebald though, right? So could be bred with the Himalayan to make black piebalds?

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

:lol: :lol:  :lol:

well the supposed black fox has all black on top except for a spot on his head and his tail is pink, his entire belly is a straight line along the edges of his chin and and belly except close to his back legs it has a slight spot that carries from the white to the black. his feet are white.

And on a side note an XL feeder mouse is the same size as a weaned rat... im not sure how big show mice are but. i know my mice are all small/medium on size


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

Actually... what am I thinking? If your black doe carried chinchilla a/a C/cch and your Himalayan buck was c/ch, you couldn't get black fox anyway. You'd have a mix of burmese/sepia/brown/mud-coloured things. It's not possible to get a black fox out of a Himalayan. So it's either a really, really pale tan or it's marked, or both.

ETA: Also, how old is this baby? All babies have fox-type bellies until they are about 10 days old because the belly fur grows in last 

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

:lol: nice description of the "things"

ummmm 12.23.10 it was born (12 days) and its still pinkish ill check when i get home on any fuzz coloring


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Are you sure it's fox and not tan?


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

no i am pretty sure its belly has white fuzz but i will double check tonight and let you know on that.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Check the line around the belly, if it is slightly pale cream/yellow, chances are it is a poor tan, not a fox.

Don't yah just love this mystery mice? I really do!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

jessierose2006 said:


> Sooo...
> 
> Black cant be bred to himi to improve on point darkening
> Black cant be bred to Black Fox
> ...


Not really, no. Black is best bred only to black. There are no acceptable outcrosses unless you want to compromise or give up on the black.

I'd never breed a black fox to a blue tan. That's dangerous for both varieties! 

Brindle and agouti are best bred as homozygous varieties so you can get more brindle (or agouti) babies and keep the best. As an outcross down the road, one or the other might work once you've got them true-breeding and know the risks, but you're still working on the beginning stages of trying to form a line, right?


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> Not really, no. Black is best bred only to black. There are no acceptable outcrosses unless you want to compromise or give up on the black.
> 
> I'd never breed a black fox to a blue tan. That's dangerous for both varieties!


That's good advice for people who have more than one mouse of each variety and/or are breeding to show, but jessierose asked for advice on breeding with what she already has, and has said she's not getting any more mice in 

Sarah xxx


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

My baby has a very barely noticable yellowish color along the edge of the black/white divide.

yeah as im working in a much tighter space than most of you as i have a 1br apartment my landlord is ok with what i have and maybe a few more but i cant have 40 mice lol.

I did pick up my Monster PEW doe and she is cute and calm for being a feeder but she holds her tail in a curve above her body... I will post picks of her and of her compared to my 2 of my others theres a definite size difference


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

How old is the baby... because tans do darken with age.

And it sounds like the PEW has wheel tail, nothing too serious, but can develop into pain for the mouse, she obviously needs a bigger wheel to go on! lol


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

12 days


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Ah yes, the baby may well yet darken into a pale tan.


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

I like the tans


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## jessierose2006 (Dec 1, 2010)

Monster Mouse is posted that im using to experiment with size increasing in the pups.


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