# Reintroducing Sisters?



## FeralWolf

So, I cannot breed Amber  . But I have two other does to choose from. Suki and Twix.

Suki is a small black satin with a white star on her forehead.

Twix is a large broken marked brindle. I think I am going to go with Suki, and I will put her with Blaze for 7-10 days.

But when I put the sisters back together, will they remember eachother? They have been together since birth, I don't want to split them up.

I need some information on reintroduction. I was thinking, I could put them together for an hour on the Wednesday during the week they are apart, so they would still remember eachother.

In need of tips, Thanks.


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## ian

I find it really easy. Just make sure you clean out the tank so none of the does can claim it as their own territory. Minimise the toys and accessories you have in the cage at first and introduce the toys back in after a few days when its all settled down. There might be some squeeking and chasing but thats imprtant as they need to set up who's boss again if you see any blood or serious injuries then you should seperate and have another think about what your next actions should be. I am moving mice aournd all the time, does are introduced to bucks and seperated out into pairs to have the babies, then afterwards they are generally put into large doe groups before being mated again and i rarely have any issues but ever so often there is a very dominant doe. The dominant doe is the one causing the problem so its best to remove her from the group rather than the does which are being picked on.


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## FeralWolf

Thanks, that helps.

I just put Suki with Blaze, and they are chasing eachother around the cage :lol: , jumping and squeaking.

Blaze is gentle and tame, I am sure I will have no problems with him.


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## racingmouse

I hope you realise by seperating two females that you could cause the one left alone a lot of stress. Usually females will have some company rather than be left on their own like this. And as ian said, when you go to put her back, you will probably find that they are not as friendly as they were before. You could end up with trouble and have to seperate them for good. I hope that does`nt happen, but be prepared for it.

Do you have homes for any baby mice yet? If not, you will have to keep them and that means more cages and housing the males together from the litter (but the dad seperate or he will attack them).


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## FeralWolf

I have homes for the baby mice. I am aware that males must be seperate from the females at 4 weeks, and that males will fight eachother.

If I seperate them (the sisters) for only a week, will that still cause problems? Like I said, I will have them play together on Wednesday for an hour, and then they will be back together on Sunday.

Also, what can I do to reduce the stress?


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## Laigaie

Since you are breeding already, try to keep at least one of your new does, so that next breeding will leave two females in the tank together. In the future, they won't have to be alone.


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## FeralWolf

This is kind of a one time thing (for now), but I am planning on keeping half of the does from the litter.

Question; Can I introduce one of the does from the litter to one of my first does? Or will they fight? The doe who needs a friend is less than 3 months old, and she needs a cage mate. All alone.


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## racingmouse

Well it`s done now so it`s in the hands of fate really. Hopefully the one you are breeding will go back with her sister to have her babies with no issues, but you must consider that seperating mice can lead to anxiety for the one that is left alone. If I were you, I would put her back today and just wait to see if any babies apear. Mice (especially females) need company. Even having her with your male for a week or more might not result in a pregnancy. If it does`nt, I would leave it. Having pet mice is just as rewarding as breeding and is`nt necessary unless you have a goal in mind and breed mice for a good reason. If it`s mainly to have more mice to keep or give away, it`s easier just to buy more and give them a home, or better still, rescue mice in need rather than breeding more. There really is`nt a reason to breed mice unless it`s for a purpose. Doing it just for fun is`nt a reason and at 12 years old, you really should have a mentor or leadership other than a forum. It`s so easy to get sucked into doing something because you see others doing it, but believe me forums can suck you in to doing just that and the reality is much more difficult, especially if you end up with problems.

You should put the sisters back together while they still have a chance. If one does turn out to be pregnant, then you will have what you wanted. If not, you will still have mice to love and enjoy.


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## SarahY

ETA: Racingmouse, FeralWolf has the full support of their parent(s) and has already found homes before pairing the mice, as was discussed in another thread. People are entitled to their own pursuit of their hobby!

FeralWolf, your does should be fine; I'm always moving mice about into different groups, pairing them, seperating them for birthing, putting them back together etc etc and it's very rare that I even hear a squeak from them.

The single doe will manage well enough on her own for a couple of weeks and you can either leave her in with the pregnant doe to help out with the babies, or you can remove her when your pregnant doe is nearly ready to kindle and put her back in when the babies are two weeks old.

Sarah xxx


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## racingmouse

A 12 year old might have the backing of their parents (I`ve seen that many times with dire results) especially when a vet is needed and the parents won`t pay so the mice suffer. I`m not saying Feral Wolf`s parents would`nt, but a minor is easily persuaded to breed their pets because it seems fun and an exciting thing to do because they join a `breeders forum` rather than a pet forum. Hobby breeders usually have much more experience and know other breeders who they exchange with and know where their mice originated from. Breeding pet shop animals is a shot in the dark and just makes more nice coloured baby mice.

I remember when I was around this age my gerbils bred a litter and I was too nieve to even know if I had males or females. Luckily, I had good friends who rehomed some of the babies and my adult male lived over four years old. That was the last time I ever bred anything and even that was`nt planned!

All I`m saying is, do much, much more research before you do something you don`t fully understand. And to answer your question regarding whether you can put a baby female with an adult female, yes you can. But the adult female could well turn on it or the baby will feel insecure, so it`s better to keep females together at all times if you can. Breeding mice means seperating them and having the male scent on them, so this in itself could cause you problems.


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## geordiesmice

I have many Does together that help with each others litters and it works extremely well , normaly I leave the male in too they dont continually breed they have a break. One group I have there are two Bucks with a harem of Does it works very well they have never had a fight others there is one Buck with 6 females .I am breeding some nice mic eat the moment and the ones I do not require get good homes Id rather give them to people who are interested in keeping mice like friends and I have recently sold some too it is inevitable you cannot keep all of what you breed so either you rehome, sell or cull the ones you dont require.


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## SarahY

> Hobby breeders usually have much more experience and know other breeders who they exchange with and know where their mice originated from.


That is totally untrue. I've seen many other people breed their pets with much less clue than FeralWolf.



> I remember when I was around this age my gerbils bred a litter and I was too nieve to even know if I had males or females. Luckily, I had good friends who rehomed some of the babies and my adult male lived over four years old. That was the last time I ever bred anything and even that was`nt planned!


Fortunately people have places like this these days to ask questions and receive advice.

Racingmouse, just because you wouldn't do something does not make it _wrong_ and having a different opinion does not mean that you can dictate how other mousers choose to pursue their interest.

Something I feel strongly about is that I would never put an animal through an operation, I would always choose to humanely euthanise a suffering animal as soon as I could. Sometimes the weeks of treatment other peoples' sick or injured pets are forced to go through really upsets me - but that doesn't give me the right to tell _anyone_ to euthanise their sick/suffering animals and that they shouldn't treat them. That is only my opinion and as such should not be forced on others.

Sarah.


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## racingmouse

Considering that Feral Wolf is only 12, I doubt she would want to (or have the means) to cull mice at home and the very mention of that I have to say is sad where a minor is concerned. It`s plain to see that breeders (not all) just `deal` with their ill or unwanted mice rather than have them treated or humanly euthanased by a licenced vet. I don`t know that puting an animal through surgery is a bad thing and it depends what the surgery is for. If it was a situation where the animal had a life threatening disease and the surgery was only going to prolong it`s life by a few months, then no, I would`nt bother. But if the surgery was needed to remove something that was obviously causing the animal a lot of pain when it would otherwise have a good life, then it`s worth considering. A gerbil scent gland tumour for instance. These are easily removed and the gerbil lives out a long life. If left, it dies from internal cancer.

But back on topic. I am not posting to tell anyone they should`nt breed, I`m replying because I want to be the voice of common sense when I see a case for it. I`m sure FW has good intentions, but she also needs to realise that it could also cause her problems if she takes on too much. She could end up with 8 baby males and one female. Who the hell is going to want male babies when they have never kept mice before? I doubt the people coming forward to rehome them before they are even conceived know what to expect in terms of smell, possible fighting and cage splitting. Finding homes is one thing, but do these homes realise how to properly care for males? I`m sure FW will tell us.


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## SarahY

> Considering that Feral Wolf is only 12, I doubt she would want to (or have the means) to cull mice at home and the very mention of that I have to say is sad where a minor is concerned.


But you haven't even asked first or given anyone the benefit of the doubt before jumping to that conclusion just because the OP is "only 12". It's attitudes and posts like this that prevent people from asking for advice in the first place - which is much, much worse :?

Just to put things into perspective, when I was twelve I could kill, pluck, gut and cook a pheasant or hen. Age has very little to do with anything except when it comes to paying for bedding, food, vet's bills etc.

Sarah.


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## AnnB

FeralWolf has the good sense to ask plenty of questions. We all start somewhere and learn by trial and error - it's these life experiences that make us knowledgeable. FeralWolf also has a sensible parent overseeing the hobby (which is a definite advantage as living creatures are involved).


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## racingmouse

Asking questions is one thing, but asking while your doing is shutting the door after the horse has bolted. I also don`t see breeding mice as a trial and error learning curve. It would be for those seeking purity and that`s mainly for exhibition standards. Another world entirely.


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## thekylie

At the end of the day, experience is a much better teacher than just reading things off the internet. That goes with ANYTHING, not just mouse breeding.

Feralwolf has started her project with much more knowledge and planning than most first time mouse breeders do. So she's not perfect yet. She's young and just learning. She'll get there. At lest her parents KNOW what's going on, which is more than can be said for some youngsters that start breeding, and she didn't just toss her mice in together the day she got them home. She has the interest and the willingness to learn and has shown care and restraint beyond what some adults do. Honestly Racingmouse, I have much more of an issue with you coming onto a breeder forum and criticizing people because they aren't treating their mice like pets like you do, than with a beginning breeder pairing what is available to her at the time and learning from her experience. Just my opinion though.

Feralwolf, I don't think you'll have any problems leaving the one girl alone for a few weeks. Just give her some extra attention. Re-introduce the sisters just like you'd introduce two strange mice, and you likely won't have any issues. The sisters should remember each other. I wonder though, could you introduce Amber and Twix and let them live together for a bit, if you're worried about Twix being alone?

When you do introduce them again, make sure it's in a totally clean tank with cleaned toys/accessories, so there is no smell of one or the other in the tank. I also will usually provide two smaller piles of food for the first meeting until they work out who's boss, but you don't have to do that. A little bit of squeaking is ok, you only need to separate if they are drawing blood. I switch around who lives with who fairly often in my girls and rarely have any more than one night of squabbling as the pecking-order is established.


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## racingmouse

Time will tell. If you or anyone else has an `issue` with someone like me who offers advice (and that`s what it is not a lecture) to a beginner, then this forum is truly biased. I`m sorry, but if I can`t be slightly negitive about some points without being critisized just because I own pet mice and don`t breed, does`nt make me a bad egg and mis-informed. I joined this forum with good intentons and with an open mind. I realise it`s not a furry pet forum, but you could at least extend some gratitude towards some of the points I make rather than just say I`m wrong?

I reply to posts when someone asks for an opinion and my opinion does`nt gel with the breeding fraternity sadly, but surely it also gives the poster another train of thought and adds to the discussion. Which nine times out of ten usually results in a debate rather than a discussion.

Having two females and one buck is`nt the best way to breed mice. As FW might find that she may or may not be able to pair the sisters up again. If she does, great, if she can`t, where does that leave the single female? And the wee one she has that`s ill.


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## thekylie

I got my start on TheFunMouse, a very pet owner biased forum, and it was an awesome way to get information. I learned a lot and it gave me many different views to consider, which I agree is very important. However, I was thrilled to find breeding forums, because they accept novices (which I still am) and instead of telling them not to breed, they try to give them guidance in how to do it right. You can only read so much. Hands on experience is the real teacher. In my opinion, all that being overly critical new breeders accomplishes is to cause them to breed in secret and in the long run that is worse for the mice. There are some bad eggs that pop up here and again that I do NOT agree should be breeding, but I don't hold that opinion for FW.

My biggest issue with your posts are that I notice more negativity than help coming from most of your posts. I know that you are trying to speak up and remind people that mice are living breathing things with feelings and needs, and I appreciate that. It is important to not lose sight of the fact that these are lives, not toys. However the constant negative comments and jabs at breeders are getting old.

Edited for typos.


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## AnnB

Racingmouse, I agree that people certainly need to think carefully and responsibly about keeping and breeding pets. I've been working in the world of animal welfare for many years and I see plenty of pets that were bought on a whim then abandoned but I have to say that if it wasn't for my parents encouraging/teaching me to keep, breed and become responsible for various pets when I was a child I probably wouldn't have become such a responsible adult and wouldn't have the career I now have.


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## racingmouse

If the parents are fully involved, all the better. I still don`t think a 12 year old should be breeding mice. And with respect, I don`t `jab` at breeders. I`m actually quite reserved otherwise I would`nt be a member on here. People will do what they want to do regardless of what I or anyone else sais. We can only give out different points of view and hope that it`s taken in.

So with that said, I will now bow out and hope FW has a trouble free time.


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## FeralWolf

I appreciate everyone's advice on this.

To racingmouse, I have been studying and watching my mice for a while now, so I know their habits and quirks. I have been studying books and the internet before I even had any mice to begin with, which was almost a year ago. I know I am not perfect (far from it) and that I am young for this. But I am telling you the truth, I would do anything for any animal. If I had a sick pinky, or the mother was overwhelmed with too many, I would cull it/some. I know for a fact that I am mature enough for this. I have had MANY pets in the past, which all lived long lives. Yes, I cry when they die. Do I blame it on myself? No. Do I get over it and dedicate more time to another animal? Yes. I respect your opinion and I know you are only telling me this for the best. I am sure you have encountered tons of irresponsible breeders. I am NOT one of them.

To everyone else, thank you for your support! Trust me, if I hadn't found this site with all of these helpful people, I would not be doing this. I have learned so much here from all of you, and I will remember it forever.

Now about the mice, Twix is fine, I just realized that she will get to see Suki every day for a little bit except for Tuesday (fitting into my schedule). I think she should be fine. She is not aggressive, just big and hyper. I introduced her to Amber once (before she was sick) and she wasn't very nice. Suki and Amber get along though. But after 7-10 days Twix and Suki will be reunited!

Again, I appreciate your support. Thank you so much! 

*edit* typo


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## Cait

Will you be leaving the two does together when the litter is born or have you decided to separate them for the mother to raise the babies alone? There are breeders who do both, and there are positives and negatives for both approaches as well. Also, I'd just like to say that you sound mature for your age and that in the future I can see you becoming an exhibition breeder - best of luck with the litter and please keep posting if you have any questions.


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## FeralWolf

Thank you! I was planning on putting Twix back with her sister so she could help with the litter. Is this right? I hoped she would be able to help Suki...
One more question, what's the average number of pinkies for a does first litter?
Ok, one last question :lol: , what's the chance of getting a sex in a litter? Ex. 50% chance bucks, 50% chance does... my dad was curious.


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## Cait

Personally I keep a couple of does together but some people advocate keeping the pregnant does separate. The reason being that they are afraid that the non-pregnant doe may harm the babies but in my experience this is very rare.

The litter size will depend on many things including the variety of mouse, the line the mouse is from, how many pinkies her mother had etc. For example a rumpwhite litter tends to be around 7-8, whereas my broken litters from a certain line were usually 16-17! In other words, there's a vast difference! As a general rule I would say that an average litter would be 8-12. As for the sexes of the babies it should be 50/50 statistically but many breeders find that they get slightly more bucks than does.


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## geordiesmice

I keep Does together FeralWolf the other Doe helps to clean the babies and stays with them while mum is feeding etc, they have never attacked a litter either. Recently I have had more Does than Bucks in my litters and it can vary depending on the variety.


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## jadeguppy

FeralWolf, I teach kids your age and I know many that would make great mouse keepers and breeders. As to finding your information online, I'm doing the same thing and I'm much older than you! If it wasn't for this site and a few others, I wouldn't have anyone to help me. It may be different in the UK, but here in the US, especially in my southern area, breeders are almost all doing it to produce feeders and not to promote the wellbeing of the animal. I've started with petshop feeders as well since there aren't any show breeders in driving distance. I have two females and two males (one male was sold as a female, which led me to this site) Please post pictures if you can. Your question has helped me and I wish you the best. FWIW, the local store near me has breeder tanks of three does and one male. All the mice are left in there 24/7. I've read that leaving the male in there isn't a good idea as the doe should have a break between litters. However, the store doesn't have problems with the bucks killing babies. The other mothers/females will help each other out with nursing and babysitting. I was laughing the other day when a female got up and had pinkies and a 2+ week old mixed in. It had crawled over from another nest and decided to stay there. This may not be the best situation to produce the strongest babies, but it shows how social they are and how much they can help each other out.


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## cjdelphi

my advice is simple, girl's don't fight for long and then it's pretty much over providing there's no blood they'll be fine.


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