# Need advice - to save the satin here



## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

I have come here for your help. So many of you are so cleaver with breeding and genetics I hope someone can help me.
As you may have read my country has now has lost so much of its mouse breeding stock and the satin is going extinct! 
Still there are probably quite a few that have satin in their background but I think that it is not quite known what mouse possibly has it, but I may be able to get mice that are more likely to have it in them. I just love the satin coat and used to have lots of them but I have not had mice for many years now but just got permission to start a small breeding at home. 
I want to help to save the satin that is left here, it is very important to me.

*What I have to work with are these two adult girls:*
One *brown even or broken marked *(brown spots on white background...is that brown marked?) 
One *black eyed white.*

I have not seen them yet but will get them next time I drive to the capital. Then I can see what kind of brown colour is in one of them and take a photo.

*My question is...
1. How would it be best to start breeding?
2. How many girls should I house together (any specific colours for the additonal girls?)
3. Does the colour of the buck matter regarding having satin in more babies? 
4. Is it possible to breed black eyed white satins from these two girls and some buck*

I need to make a breedingplan.

I do realize that the satin is recessive and I may have to inbreed (if you advice to do so) but I was thinking if some colours are too strong and may be trouble to mix with satin. Also the mice are more related here than abroad so I must keep that in mind.

So the breeder will keep a buck for me, pick out for me or let me pick out, I was thinking what buck I could use, he can save for me specific bucks if I tell him what I am looking for. I will want mice with good temperament, but that is not a problem here I think.

If anyone can help me on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated.

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Additional information:

If the colour of the buck matters these are the colours I think we still have available:
* Black eyed whites
* A few PEW
* Variegated
* Even and broken marked
* Banded
* Black tan
* Some types of broken
* Some form of colour that we call in my language tricolor, like black markings on white background with some tan (not good tan I think)
Possibly:
* Belted
* Something like Hereford but I think with additional spots

Coat varieties:
* Standard
* Long haired (many not so good once I THINK, not sure)


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

If the girls are brown as in chocolate and black, to start with you'd have all a/a, so no agouti or argente from those unless you get a buck that has the dominant gene A, unless the black eyed white is a c^e/c^e yellow which would change the assortment you might get form them. I think you are going to end up having to speculate unless you know the genotype of that doe.

I'd stick with short haired to start since the more recessdivevs you have , in my view, the more likely to have health problems.

To start, the buck should be by himself for at least a couple of days so he is secure in holding his tank as his own territory. If you use just one buck, I'd place the two does with him, and then move the does together into a separate tank after a week to ten days. That should be long enough for a couple of estrus cycles. You'll know soon enough if they are pregnant and need to go back with the buck. You could use two bucks, which would probably give more variety, and more work figuring out the genes involved.

The color of the buck as far as how many satins is irrelevant. Satin can happen in any color or marking or coat type. Whether you could get more BEW's depends on the buck if he is yellow, then you might be able to produce BEW's, but he'd need to carry the recessive c^e on the C locus.

I like to have an out cross to standard short haired every couple of generations or so just to help prevent the occurence of several nasty recessiveds that can cause health problem in satins.

I hope my advice helps, and I also hope that, if I have misspoken, someone will jump in and correct me. For instance, I know that satins in some part of the world don't have a history of harmful recessives.


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

Thank you for your answer. I think I am confident to say that we have never had agouti or argente in my country. I was reading about the colours and I don´t remember seeing them ever.
I think too it would be wise to stick to short haired although I do not know/remember of any health problem involving recessives.
Yes it is a hard question if to use one buck or two. Perhaps it would be simpler for me to learn about them to use one? 
If it matters these are not show mice and last time I knew they were all very fertile and had many babies. We do not have show mice here yet.

moustress, I have read your post well and it will be a good help to me  thank you
Any more comments welcome :mrgreen:


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Wild mousies are agouti; but you don't want to do that, I think. There are no pet agoutis in Iceland?


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

moustress said:


> Wild mousies are agouti; but you don't want to do that, I think. There are no pet agoutis in Iceland?


oh ok like wild mosies, I have to check, I am not sure if the breeding stock that I was working with had it (trying to remember because if it did it was very few mice), I must ask my friend, sounds unlikely that it was never here. 
Well except 3 agouti mousies I saw recently but they were mixed with the wild mouse.....which is not used for breeding here, except for one person´s feeders. 
I also forgot to mention that I think it is nearly impossible to know the genotype of those two does but I will try to inquire. Try to find out who their parents are and what they known.

I hope I am understanding you correctly,

So you would say that the colour of the buck doesn´t matter really except for agouti which is too dominant to use with the satin?
Should I try to get those two satin does´s siblings/sisters to my breeding stock?
Or just try to get mice that they suspect have satin in them to use regardless if they are related to those two starting does?
Should I try to get a buck that is related to her and if so how much related?

Thank you so much again for your time :mrgreen:


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Any color or coat type, including agouti, can be produced in satin. I think that satin agoutis are lovely; the yellow band looks like sparkling gold against the brown and black, which are deepened by the satin coat. It's so pretty it almost looks like a completely different kind of coat.


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

> Satin can happen in any color or marking or coat type. Whether you could get more BEW's depends on the buck if he is yellow, then you might be able to produce BEW's, but he'd need to carry the recessive c^e on the C locus.


How do I know if the buck *is* yellow, do you mean carries yellow or is yellow? (like a variation of white with yellow look?). 
Have read this before here on the forum but don´t quite understand this part.

So I would have to find a buck related to the BEW doe and hope that he carries the recessive c^e or use her son on her?
btw. can´t see c^e in the genetic code list topic on the forum but I think I understand it correctly that is the genetic code for BEW satin...?



moustress said:


> Any color or coat type, including agouti, can be produced in satin. I think that satin agoutis are lovely; the yellow band looks like sparkling gold against the brown and black, which are deepened by the satin coat. It's so pretty it almost looks like a completely different kind of coat.


This sounds very nice  but does the agouti not overtake other colours?


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## nuedaimice (May 26, 2010)

The only color I would try to avoid breeding satin on is black, as it will be too dark to see if it is satin or not (unless you check the belly).

But for someone just getting started, it'd be easiest for you to not breed it in black.


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## neurozool (May 22, 2010)

I could be wrong, but the best way to get a satin out of mice you think *may* have recessive satin, would be to breed the doe to a buck and then breed the siblings together. If the doe and buck are hiding satin, some of the pups from the brother X sister litters should be satin. Then you could take that satin pup and outcross it to a unrelated mouse and breed those pups to eachother to get another satin. Hope this helps.


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

nuedaimice, thank you for that, we don´t have all black mice here but this is good to know. But we do have black tan here which I will not bee seeking after using for now.

neurozool, thank you for that, all the mice here are pretty related, I will post pics tomorrow I think of the new mice. I could try this, to put together siblings and see what happens then I could see better what colours they have behind them. I think I can not get unrelated mouse for now but I would have to try just to choose very healthy and well tempered mice.

added...I got a male who is white with black eyes but some gray in the ears. I picked him over a bew male who looked not healthy, looked older in the eyes. I gave back the variengated male I had, he did no turn out so well.

So I have
BEW doe
BEW doe with tiny spot on the back
BEW buck with some long hairs (but is all white exept for the eyes of course)
BEW satin doe
BEW buck with short coat but gray colour in the ears
White and brown marked satin doe (sorry for not correct name of colour)

and yes I like BEW mice


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## neurozool (May 22, 2010)

Just keep in mind that the color has *nothing* to do with the possiblity that they carry satin. Any color mouse can have satin S/s and not show it. If you put two NON-satin mice together (S/s X S/s) You can get:
1 Non satin (S/S)
2 Non satin, satin carriers (S/s)
1 satin mouse (s/s)

You can then breed the 2 satin carriers to get some more satin mice (s/s). If you breed a non satin mouse to the satin mouse to see if the unknown mouse carries satin, you should get:
1 non satin carrier (S/s)
3 satin mice

This is based on a 4 pup litter, and is a random guess as a satin carrier could also give you all non satin mice. Color has nothing to do with it, and you can always take a satin mouse who's color you don't like and use it to infuse satin into BEW.


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## nuedaimice (May 26, 2010)

Just to clear up any confusion, the gene marker for Satin is sa, not s (thats recessive spotting).


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

Thank you neurozool and nuedaimice for your answer. Yes I understand (now) that satin can go to all colours but I was thinking that if I would like to breed specific colours it would not be wise to mix just any colour together. I am very interested in BEW and also variengated or marked. I was thinking that if I would mix those colours the BEW would not be as pure....or the varegated be with too little colour or marked too few markings. Maybe I should just concentrate on satins and good temperment and health and not bother too much with the colours too since we have such a small breeding stock here?


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

One more question, the buck I would like to use the most is very young, how old should he be to be the buck of a small colony cage?
I have a similar older buck but he does not have as good temperment and colour. 
If I want to put all 4 does together in an colony can I first start off with the older buck and later replace him with the young buck? 
Or should I put the young buck right away while he is still very young and they will accept him better than if he is older and he will just mate with them when he is redy?

(I think I must have a colony cage, a friend of mine who knows the mice here very well said that it is impossible to have the buck in a seperate cage, it causes too much stress and brakes up the family bond that the mice make when I take does out to meet the buck or to have the babies in seperate cage, said that the mice will just start killing the babies and things like that if I try to do that).


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## neurozool (May 22, 2010)

Thanks, nuedaimice!

And if satin is as rare as you say it is, I would take the genes where you can find them and not hope to hit the lottery and find the genes in the variety you want. You can always take satin mice you bred in other varieties and breed them into the varieties you like more.


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## Autumn2005 (Apr 21, 2010)

Satin isn't rare in the US, but it is rare in my lines. All my satins are black, and so now I'm trying to breed them to my other lines. It takes time, but I keep getting impatient! :lol:


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

Gosh, I'm over run with Satins. If we weren't on opposite coasts, I could give you some! 

I'm switching my brindle satins, over to Umbrous Sable satins. . . I got a pair out of a litter, and they're just too pretty not to breed.  
Satin and umbrous are amazing together. . .


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

I now 2 cages, 
cage A: 1 with 2 satin does and one BEW buck and 
cage B with all BEW, 2 does and 1 young buck.

I think I have deceided to take a baby buck (unborn now) from the satin does and put with the BEW does in cage B (the satins are pregnant from 2 diffirent males, not the BEW older male I have). 
So I have one pretty BEW buck left. I would like to switch him out for the older BEW in cage A but he is too young. When do you think bucks are redy to go in a cage with older does?


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

Well update 
I was wrong, cage B, the BEW cage girls (Baby and Bella, both BEW) were not pregnant until later so the father is Mickey (BEW) not the other male they were with. But all babies are BEW´s (8+7), none are satin. So there must be none satin in them since Mickey, Bella and Baby are all siblings I am pretty sure of that, they were identical, exactly the same size when I got them from a colony cage with mixed colours.

The other cage, cage A: Coco (agouti broken or variegated satin doe) had 10 babies with Blizzard (BEW) and 6 out of 10 were satins (all variegated satins, the non satins are two BEW´s, 1 agouti vari and 1 fawn vari).

I know these are alot of babies and many of you would cull some but they are looking good and for the time being I must see all the babies grow up to:
a) learn about what colours are behind the parents, see what the babies turn out to be
b) so I can see what babies are satins
c) I can use the oppertunity to learn to sex them better

I also give the does good food and extra things that are good for milking moms ect.



moustress said:


> The color of the buck as far as how many satins is irrelevant. Satin can happen in any color or marking or coat type. Whether you could get more BEW's depends on the buck if he is yellow, then you might be able to produce BEW's, but he'd need to carry the recessive c^e on the C locus.


I got two BEW babies, so is the buck yellow then?



neurozool said:


> Just keep in mind that the color has *nothing* to do with the possiblity that they carry satin. Any color mouse can have satin S/s and not show it. If you put two NON-satin mice together (S/s X S/s) You can get:
> 1 Non satin (S/S)
> 2 Non satin, satin carriers (S/s)
> 1 satin mouse (s/s)
> ...


So Blizzard must have satin in him since I got so many satins? (6 out of 10)
Most likely at least one of the non satin does NOT have satin in him?


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## neurozool (May 22, 2010)

Yes. But you cannot know that for sure unless you breed all the non satin mice to a satin. If you get satin babies, then that non satin mouse is a carrier. If you get none, then chances are that mouse is not. But keep in mind that it *is* possible for a satin carrier to give Sa to all the pups. Chances of that is slim, and depend on how large the litter is. If you get 3 pups and none are satin, then your non satin mouse might still be a carrier, but if you have a litter of 15 and none are satin, then it would be unlikely that your non satin mouse has sa.

That entire litter would be carriers though. So if you in bred that litter, you should get some satins.


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## tipex (Jun 21, 2010)

i don't know you know that...

but satin is very easy to see... you must only look on the teeth Are they white... it is Satin.... are they normal light yellow.. it is no satin...

Very easy test... i would made pics... but i must wait for 2 Hand more

LG tipex


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

tipex said:


> i don't know you know that...
> 
> but satin is very easy to see... you must only look on the teeth Are they white... it is Satin.... are they normal light yellow.. it is no satin...
> 
> ...


I never knew that.


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## Mymouse (Jul 2, 2010)

tipex said:


> i don't know you know that...
> but satin is very easy to see... you must only look on the teeth Are they white... it is Satin.... are they normal light yellow.. it is no satin...
> 
> Very easy test... i would made pics... but i must wait for 2 Hand more


really?? I must test this :mrgreen:



neurozool said:


> Yes. But you cannot know that for sure unless you breed all the non satin mice to a satin. If you get satin babies, then that non satin mouse is a carrier. If you get none, then chances are that mouse is not. But keep in mind that it *is* possible for a satin carrier to give Sa to all the pups. Chances of that is slim, and depend on how large the litter is. If you get 3 pups and none are satin, then your non satin mouse might still be a carrier, but if you have a litter of 15 and none are satin, then it would be unlikely that your non satin mouse has sa.
> 
> That entire litter would be carriers though. So if you in bred that litter, you should get some satins.


ok


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