# First (and only) litter



## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

I hope this is the appropriate forum. I apologize if this is not.

One of my females became pregnant after I got them due to the previous owner's and my own inexperience with mice genders. I have a few questions about my litter and I hope you will help me out... 
The pups are a little over three weeks of age (exact birthday is November 26) and are currently eating their mother's solid food and still sneaking a bit of milk from their mother. There were thankfully only eight of them. 
At the moment I'm having trouble sexing them, so I may have to take pictures and post them to be sure. I have found homes for six of them, and I plan to keep two of the females.

I have a few questions:
1) I am currently feeding my adult females a brand of mouse food called CareFresh Complete. This is the food that the pups are eating at the moment. Do I need to switch to a different food? I read that it is important to feed them a lot of protein.

2) I plan to separate the males and females at four and a half weeks (December 27th is the date I have set currently) but I hear you can separate them at five. I REALLY do not want any more babies, so am I safe separating them at 4 1/2 weeks? Or do I need to wait longer?

3) If I separate them at 4 1/2 weeks, is it alright to adopt them out at 5weeks? I've heard you should wait until 7-8 weeks but I'm not sure why you would wait so long if they are no longer dependent on their mother's milk.

I may have a few more questions depending on your answers. Thank you for your time.


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## BlackCat99 (Jun 30, 2011)

I personally separate males no later than 4wks so you don't have to worry about them not making it or being healthy I have never had a problem with my mice not surviving this. I feed lab blocks and feed my weened youngsters the same thing as my adults I don't know the details of your food but if protein is a problem you could always supplement their diet. I would personally wait at least a week after seperating them from mom before re-homing them just to make sure they are in fact eating/drinking ok on their own and growing like they should but I am sure some people would tell you different.


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

BlackCat99 said:


> I personally separate males no later than 4wks so you don't have to worry about them not making it or being healthy I have never had a problem with my mice not surviving this. I feed lab blocks and feed my weened youngsters the same thing as my adults I don't know the details of your food but if protein is a problem you could always supplement their diet. I would personally wait at least a week after seperating them from mom before re-homing them just to make sure they are in fact eating/drinking ok on their own and growing like they should but I am sure some people would tell you different.


No later? I shouldn't wait until 4 1/2 weeks then I suppose. I really can't have more babies running about. They certainly eat a lot of food when they start to eat solid food!

Reading the back of the package of CareFresh - the ingredients state: Corn, barely, wheat, soybean meal, alfalfa, brewers dried yeast, molasses, and then a bunch of different vitamins and minerals.


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## BlackCat99 (Jun 30, 2011)

you can wait til 4 1/2 wks with really no worries, mice can mature between 4 and 8wks, I have no idea how common it is for them to mature at 4wks but I have never had a 4-5wk old get anyone pregnant.


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## Viry (Oct 31, 2011)

My males matured at 4wks on the day, basically. Or so it seemed. They got way more interested in the girls and had inherited their father's big balls.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I'd stay away from that food if you can. I'm not sure what part of the US you are in, but I'd see if someone can share a bag of Harlan Texlad with you. They test all their food for nastiest that are carried by corn. For now, try giving them some scrambled eggs (don't leave it in too long due to spoilage), meal worms, high quality dog food (I use Taste of the Wild), or crickets. All of these will help provide the protein they need.

I'd seperate the boys at 4 weeks. It is safe to do so then and limits them getting anyone pregnant.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Yeah, having corn as the main ingredient can be a problem, not only beause low quality corn that may be moldy and thus may contain alflatoxin, but corn can spur the development of tumor, especially mammary tumors in does.

I agree on separating the babies at about four to five weeks, and having them on their own for at least a few days before they sent out to another person. Wor me, the size of the bucks ruling exactly when I do take them out; it seems to me that bigger meeces and babies mature earlier, with the stones moving into the 'locked and loaded' position earlier. Being transported is very stressful in and of itself, and I like the idea of letting them get over being separated before transporting.


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

I can't find a place online to buy Harlan Texlad for mice - the only thing I found was about three different types of rat food.
I can certainly do scrambled eggs though - and possibly meal worms (which I had no idea mice could eat) if the local petstore carries them.

I had no idea that corn could increase the growth of a tumor... I certainly didn't help my mouse that passed away due to a tumor. The vet said absolutely nothing about corn and didn't even ask me about the diet of my mouse... That makes me a bit sad to know that I could have made my mouse worse.

I see exactly why you should wait a bit after separating them now. I'll certainly give them some extra time to make sure they're alright after separating them before I take them over to their new homes. I suppose I should do the same and separate the females that are being adopted out from their mother for a few days before taking them to their new home.


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## Paziqi (Feb 10, 2010)

Look for Native Earth; it's supposed to be the same thing as Harlan Texlad. There are several places online that sell it. nationalpetpharmacy.com is one.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I buy mine from where Paziqi suggested and store the extra in a salt bucket. The bucket has a nice rubber ring that keeps moisture out.

Corn isn't so much the big problem as low quality corn. Since Harlan is a lab supplier, they must ensure that the food doesn't impact mice studies. To help with this they test every batch of corn they use to ensure it is mold free. Keeping extra food frozen is a good alternative to a sealed bucket, possibly better alternative.


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## MoonfallTheFox (Nov 12, 2011)

Harland teklad that is sold for rats is the same as for mice, isn't it? I feed 2014 to all of my rodents without a problem.


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

The website suggested is currently out of stock. ><; Thank you though. I'll keep checking.
Until I get new food for my other adult female mouse I'll be pulling all the corn out by hand I suppose.

If anyone has a website for any safe and well trusted mouse food that is currently in stock, please throw it my way if you have the time.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

It is showing in stock at nationalpetpharmacy today. Until you get a good food, try adding regular oats (not quick oats) to your feed to replace the corn. A soak in soy milk is good for adding protein.

How is your doe doing?


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

I'll purchase some right away. Thank you!

The only non quick oats we have are steel cut oats which have to be cooked stove top for a while. 
I'll pick up a small container of soy milk later today. Thanks for the advice!

She's fine. Right after she gave birth she was actually much calmer than she usually was. She would climb right into my hand. She's gone back to being a bit skittish again, but I have a feeling once the boys are gone and I get to start holding her a lot more she'll calm back down. I've been focusing on the babies though and trying to get them comfortable with being picked up and sitting in hands. There's only two of the eight that REALLY don't like being picked up.

She just started to slim down since week three hit - she was packing on extra weight obviously after being pregnant. She's almost back to the size she was before her pregnancy.


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

I was wondering... This Saturday will be four weeks for the pups...
Is it too soon to separate them tonight? They're starting to become interested in females. As far as I know they're not drinking their mother's milk. It's just three days away so I don't see any harm but I wanted to make sure if anyone sees a problem with separating them at 3 1/2 instead of 4 weeks.


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## BlackCat99 (Jun 30, 2011)

if their testicles are already dropping and you see that they eat/drink on their own just fine I would imagine you could but I would at least leave the girls in with mom... even if they aren't really drinking from mom when you are around they may be at night plus that extra time with mom is good I think... maybe someone else will be able to give you better insight


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

Yes their testicles have already dropped and they've gotten much more interested in girls. Last night was the first night I heard them squeaking. The only time my adult mice ever squeaked like that was when they were fighting over food once, and when the male was chasing the females. They are always in the food dish eating food and drinking water (like crazy!) but I see one specifically (a female) always sneaking milk when the mom is asleep. But none of the other mice seem to be nursing. I suppose they could be at night like you said though.

I do plan to leave the girls with the mom for a while regardless. I'm just nervous because of the squeaking and testicles. I don't want to cause them any harm but I don't want them making more babies, especially not inbred babies.


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## BlackCat99 (Jun 30, 2011)

lol I love how people think inbreeding mice is bad... people in the fancy breed moms to sons, brothers to sisters etc all the time, it is an important part of the hobby! but if like you said their testicles have dropped and they are trying to reproduce I see no harm in removing the boys 3 days before 4wks just keep an eye on them after separation to make sure they eat/drink ok and don't loose weight


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

Ah the only reason I wouldn't want to inbreed any animal is because of the small gene pool to take away from. My belief is that purebreds are less resistant to diseases than mongrels which have a larger gene pool to pull from. But I do hear 'inbred' and think 'mutant hillbillies' automatically. Lol. 
I apologize if I offended, however. That wasn't my intention.

Thanks! 83 I'll move them and keep a close eye on them.


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## jadeguppy (Jun 4, 2011)

If you inbreed animals with excellent genes, you get more with excellent genes. Inbreeding is also one of the only ways to bring problems genes to the surface and breed them out of a line of mice. It is how breeders get recessive genes like recessive yellow to continually show up. Did you know that all the syrian hamsters in the US originate from a single litter that was brought over?


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

^^^
Just like jadeguppy said, excellent genes=excellent genes. The problems are when people breed animals with no regard or selection for health, which is where you wind up with severe health problems. As you touched upon and is mentioned elsewhere, out crossing to different mice (dogs, chickens, etc...) will often get you animals that display "hybrid vigor," where the offspring surpass either parent in health, size, or longevity. But what works best for this is to have two established lines that you know will result in specific offspring when crossed. This is how we get the mass marketed broiler chickens, they are a hybrid that excels in growth. That's not to say that you should go to a pet store and buy unrelated mice to out cross hoping for a super mouse. In that situation you're bringing in mice of unknown genetic history, which could mean that the offspring might be prone to cancer, tumors, or numerous other problems.

I think the American Curl is a good example (like the syrian hamsters) of a small gene pool. Basically, there was a random mutation in a litter of strays, a woman caught one, and the breed got started just as long ago as 1981. Really good except on Cats 101 (discovery channel).


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

I had no idea about any of that. That's interesting to know. And it makes perfect sense too.

But no I wouldn't breed the mice again. It wasn't intentional in the first place. I had never owned mice before, got them from a friend who *already* had an accidental litter, and was foolish enough to trust her when she said she knew what gender they were. Long story short, my foolishness = babies.
I'm going to pop over to the vet this Friday with the pups and make sure I've sexed them right. Luckily there is a small critter care veterinary office close to where I live that came highly recommended by my regular vet for my dogs.

Speaking of different mice, my favorite that I've seen so far has to be the Fox. Eventually I'm going to get some from a breeder, but that most likely won't be for a few years. I've got a good number right now. ;D


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## BlackBird (Dec 19, 2011)

I wanted to thank everyone who helped me out. The babies are all doing fine, there was an even split of four males and four females.
I got that large 40lb bag of mouse food from nation pet pharmacy. I did not realize just how much food that was until it arrived. I split it into ziplock bags to keep it fresh.

I kept two of the beautiful females and they all get along great with my other female. Everything is wonderful, except for the fact that due to recent construction around here, we have wild mice running about our garage. I keep my mice in my room, not to mention we have some dogs and a cat to take care of any foreign mice that might try to enter the house. 
Aside from that everything is wonderful and I wanted to say 'Thank You!' for everyone's help!


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