# Keeping males together?



## PPVallhunds

Ive not had a problem in the past keeping virgin males together, a few tiny dissagrements but nothing remotly seriouse, ive only had problems with breeding males so keep them seperate. Have i just been lucky with my nonbreeding males or it is common for them to live happly together? (im thinking more litter mates) The person who wanted all the males from my most reasont litter has now changed there mind and want females incase the males fight. Would you advise males go in pairs or singly in a pet home??


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## Tinkers Mousery

well out the latest lot of mice i have just bought there were 3 - 5 month old piebald siamese bucks that have lived together. they are quite happy. :? she has had them together since they were young. so i dunno. :?:


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## SarahY

I don't home males as pets for that very reason. It's a very difficult scenario :? I worry that the prospective pet owner won't have enough experience to deal with any fighting that may occur in a pair/group of males and I think it'd be so sad for a male to have to live all of his life on his own. It's fine if he gets plenty of playtime, but I worry that the prospective pet owner would get bored of him and he'd spend more and more days alone in his cage... Even if they were to assure me that wouldn't happen, I'd be too suspicious! At least a breeding male has females to keep him company most of the time. So my conscience dictates that on the whole I only sell females as pets, and all males are culled as pinkies unless they are needed by me or another breeder.

Even virgin bucks in my stud end up alone by 3 months old because of fighting, but it's not always that way.

Sarah xxx


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## PPVallhunds

Thank you 
i guess ill have to see if any one on here would be intrested in them, 2 are solid black and 2 are solid agouti.


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## racingmouse

My mindset on this is that bucks sold as pets should be sold in pairs only. I say this because the theory is, that one male will be dominant and one will be subordinate and as long as he knows his place, the two brothers should get on. There are guidelines that a new owner MUST follow though and these are:

1. Make sure both males live in a the same cage all their lives.
2. Never do full cage cleans with males. Keeping back half the substrate/half the bedding is essential. Males do not like change.
3. Only clean one cage toy/accessory at a time, or give throw away items like cardboard tissue boxes, egg boxes and toilet roll tubes.
4. Have TWO wheels in the cage to prevent arguments.
5. If one needs to see a vet, take both along. Never split males up unless it`s only for a few minutes here and there.

Most importantly, anyone keeping a pair of pet males should have a spare cage ready.

That`s the main points really, so anyone taking on two males should be given a caresheet with these instructions, especially if they are new to keeping mice as pets. I started out with four males, learned the hard way, had to split them into one pair and two singles, yet my boys were all loved and played with more than most kids are! So as long as they are prepared to take that on, males are wonderful!


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## Cait

My bucks live together until they are separated for breeding and they don't fight. I always do a full cage clean and they don't have two of everything as mentioned above. They are introduced at 4.5-6 weeks old and always stay together until at least three months (or more) when they are needed as stud bucks. Sometimes animals get on, sometimes they don't. There are things you can do to make it easier, but in the end if they are so inclined, they will fight IMO. The difference between exhibition and oet breeders is that another cage isn't a problem for an exhibition breeder (there's always plenty hanging around) but could be an issue for the pet keeper. Same goes for the smell of bucks - I don't mind it in the slightest but keep my mice in the garage anyway, whereas a house that smells of male mouse isn't the best place when you have visitors lol :lol: :roll:


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## Loganberry

MouseBreeder said:


> whereas a house that smells of male mouse isn't the best place when you have visitors lol :lol: :roll:


Absolutely! :lol:


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## AnnB

That's easy to solve - don't have any visitors!


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## PPVallhunds

lol.

use to have a group of 7 males but the 2 larger ones bullied the others and one attacked one, so the bigger ones went, split the injured one out with the smallest them put them all back tougher once healed, the only problem i had was with a little guy called crack, he was crazy! like he was on something or had ADHD (hence the name lol) but after the other males told him off enough he calmed down compleatly. But ive noticed that the mice ive got now have a diffrent temperment to the ones i use to have, i think its from one old female Stumpy who use to take every baby under her wing who died a while ago, mary took her place but she died while bandit and **** were tiny pinkies, so dont have an old nanny to guide the babies.

From what you have all said i think i will do what SarahY does and only home females as pets just to save problems incase someone havs a pair and they do end up fighting, and when ive got males ive ran on to get one for myself ill try to rehome to breeders, i know someone who will take all my spair mice so i wont get over run but i would rather they go to pet or breeder homes.


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## Whizzbee

Males are very hard too keep, seriously I wish I had racingmouse his list when I got mine  I had to seperate them because I didn't know 
I only have 1 seperate buck left; Whizzbee and I spent everyday at least a minimum of 1 hour with him outside his cage, I break off dates to go home to spent time with him hahaha, seriously, It's a comitment I made that I intent to keep and I love the little fellow to death but if I had knew this I would never had gotten Mice to be honest esspecially bucks. I sometimes wonder if it would have been better if I didn't got 2 bucks but a whole group... and yeah the smell... mouse pee in the morning haha, honestly I think a lot of people get rid of their mousies because of the bucks fighting and smelling so you should only sell them to people who really really know what they get themselfs into!! I just adopted 2 siamese from people who "couldn't" take care of them anymore (after 2 days I knew why because it's the most stinky smell of smells they produce haha) Someone here discribed the smell as popcorn, it's kind of right actually, I won't eat it anymore I think hahahaha


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## racingmouse

The smell is one thing yes, but single males can be more of a commitment for a pet owner. It`s not the taking on of a pair, it`s if they ever have to be seperated. If they are together, you don`t have the problems of spending more time with them, but anyone taking on a pair of males must recognise this might happen. Sometimes it does`nt, but preperation is the key with males.

What I would probably do in a situation like this, is have one or both neutered. Then they could either co-habit together, or live with females. I`m not a huge fan of neutering mice and it is a new concept and you do need a vet who 1, is willing to do the surgery and 2, has a good previous record doing this surgery. Some vets will never have neutered a mouse before, some will have done many. So it`s a case of making sure your own vet, or another vet could do this well. There is still a risk that the mouse/mice won`t survive the surgery.

So all is not lost if your someone who knows these facts and can fall back on them if the males do fall out. I know of some rescues who took in a whole load of males and got them all neutered so that they could then be rehomed together! The cost can be anywhere between £30 - £50 depending on the vet and how many mice are being `done`.


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## geordiesmice

If one of my mice has a litter I only keep the males normally if I need them for breeding, other than that I will give them away or cull them as soon as I sex them.The males I have together are brothers siamese and fawn satins none have faught as yet especially thesiamese there very placid.


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## racingmouse

It can be hit or miss with males really. I would stick to the aforementioned rules regarding half-cage cleans etc. Now that many vets will neuter mice, it`s worth advertising some as pets from litters if you have an outlet of interest (and in pairs only) and passing on this advice to perspective owners to let them know there are things they can do in these circumstances. Speaking to your own vet beforehand is a good idea before taking two males on incase they do need splitting at some stage and you then find your vet won`t carry out the surgery. Some people are not prepared to pay £30 for a single neuter either, but those would be the people I would`nt rehome to anyway! 

Males ARE difficult to rehome purely because of two things. Smell and potential for them to fall out. But if you have two little boys in a litter, give them that chance if you know they can be offered as pets to a dedicated home. By all means cull early if it`s necessary, but some should have that chance of being pets. Another good reason for planning ahead before you breed if you are a small, hobby breeder.


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## Kallan

I keep my males together until they are separated for breeding or to be sold.

The two most recent ones started fighting with each other just before I neutered them - and tore chunks off one another - but now have settled down! So even once they have started fighting, there are options.


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## racingmouse

That`s good to know kallan, thanks. It certainly gives the males that `second chance` that they need rather than living a solitary life.


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## geordiesmice

Normally the Bucks smell more when they have been cleaned out as they scent mark, I have had one or two brothers squabble but seem ok none as yet have drawn blood so if you monitor them closely they can be kept for long periods together but first signs of realll fighting they must be seperated or thats cruel.My local exotic pet store asked me for Mice recently but I dont like selling I would rather give them to a loving home ive never sold anything and I would hate to think they fed them to there boas not that there is anything at all wrong with feeders.


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## racingmouse

That`s true geordie. That`s why I suggest doing half cage cleans to prevent them over scenting. Keeping back some of their substrate and bedding helps with this.


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## geordiesmice

Sorry Rm I repeated what you said im not with it today  you are exactly right what you say, I never put there food dishes in as soon as Ive cleaned the mice out either as they all scrat on in the new bedding and cover the food dish lol so I wait till they finnish then put there food back in


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## moustress

If you can prevent the boys from seriously injuring each other, there often occurs a type of natural fixing when there are two boys together. The the dominating buck will cause the subordinate buck to naturally inhibit and reduce the production of testosterone. This doesn't always eliminate fighting; there are often spats, but they rare result in injury.

Another outcome, though, is that the subordinate buck will suffer damage to his heart and will die of heart failure. It's a gamble, and one needs to be very conscientious at monitoring the behavior. If the dominant buck harasses the other whenever he tries to eat or drink or sleep, it can be fatal. It's a gradual process that doesn't show as injury, but may show in poor condition, this sometimes happens with does as well.


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## zany_toon

It's a shame that boys often do end up fighting as I find them a lot more cuddly than the girls :lol: I find that using the advice RM has given that they are a lot more likely to stay together though - my own group of 6 only fell apart when one of their brothers died from a tumour  They all doted on him and cared for him when he was ill but after he died they really struggled to sort out their hierarchy - 2 of the group came out and the remaining 4 sorted themselves out and have been together now for 14 months (fingers crossed it lasts.) I also have a group of 5 brothers living together who are 5 months old. It is certainly as much down to hard work as it is the temprament of the mice when it comes to keeping boys together.


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## Bella

I have better luck with keeping males together than I do with keeping females together. Imagine that.

Recently I had a new batch of weanlings. I still had some of the previous litters around (14 weeks), and put my weanlings (4 weeks) in with them, males and females separated, of course. One of the older females KILLED a younger female.... there was barely any fighting between the males. Keep in mind please that when I introduce new mice together I stay and observe for a long, long time. I don't do it if I can't stay. Everything was fine with the girls. The death occurred overnight, unexpectedly. I found the bully, and she was immediately removed. No problems after that.


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## racingmouse

That was sad Bella. It`s never nice to see them inflict bad injuries on one another, never mind kill. I suppose we never know the real reasons for this behaviour, but the mice obviously know where they stand and let the others know that in no uncertain terms.

I started keeping females after my group of four males all passed on because of the splitting up and the time it took to devote to the two males who were single. Having said that, I adored them all and learnt from the experience.

Females can be just as territorial yes. If you take on a group that are already bonded they are usually fine. If by the time that group reduces through natural causes and you try to introduce new females, it`s not always plain sailing. You sometimes find that one dominant female will not let things settle and harmony never really kicks in. Sometimes introductions just don`t work with females at all and you end up having to keep them apart. I`ve learnt this just recently and also in the past when I had a single show mouse who just would`nt tolerate other mice, not even very young mice.

Males are a labour of love, but sometimes females can give cause for concern aswell, so it`s a good idea to know your mice from day one and try to match compatibility with size and behaviour where possible.


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## moustress

Does that have been bred can be extremely combative if you introduce strangers into a family group. Having the daughters and mother together and adding outsiders is the foundation for trouble; the mother and sometimes some of the young does off her will attack and harass...it rarely results in fatalities, but I can easily see young babies being killed. I don't place very young mousies in with mom and daughter groupings. It works better to house young girls from the two litter together WITHOUT either of the moms. The female youngsters rarely fight when placed together without the mothers.

When I combine any two groups of females I first swap the groups into the others' cages for a few hours. It mixes the scents and confuses their pheramonal response to the other group.


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## Bella

I'm not sure if that was directed at me moustress, or just said in general. But my breeding does are kept with one buddy, only. My community tank is for offspring only so it is never mom and daughter groups.  It is kind of a temporary in between while I wait to determine which of those does will be bred, and which will be sold.


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## racingmouse

mousetress - do you find that switching the mice into one anothers cages helps? I would have thought that it does given that the mice can explore the others terriroty and smells without conflict and then it might be easier to introduce them. I`ve always introduced my girls (pet mice) in a neutral Rody tank with only a water bottle in it and a sheet of newspaper on the floor. But this can be hit or miss really. I`ve had a few pairings work quickly and a few where two of the mice would`nt settle within the first hour or so.

I`m talking about female mice only here. You would`nt do this with males.


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## AnnB

That's pretty much what I did last time I put two groups of females together. It was laziness on my part really, I couldn't be bothered to set up a clean cage as I'd only cleaned the two groups out a couple of days before so I just swapped over bits of the bedding and toys so they had stuff that smelt of each group in the one cage. It worked well and they looked relaxed as their own smells were on everything.


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## racingmouse

That`s interesting Ann, thanks. I know that with adult gerbils (usually males as females are more difficult to pair up) that cage `splitting` is nearly always done, which means the gerbils can see and smell one another, but because the double guard or `split` is in place, they can`t actually be physical. The tank is split like this for as long as needed until the gerbils are allowed together and then the owner decides whether they still need more time with the split in place, or whether they are getting on well and the split can be taken away, at least temporarily uncase it`s needed again.

With mice (especially in my situation) I have barred cages, so the best I can do is to put both cages within an inch or so of each other and let the mice see, smell and be aware of each others presence. But when the time comes to do intros, I might just give this a go and see if it works. It lets both mice have a good run around in each others territories and vica versa without them actually meeting. I don`t know how often this should be done before actual intros though? Every day for a week? A few times a week?.....Obviously I would`nt want to stress the girls by puting them into a strange environment with the scent of a potential foe! I would`nt want to cause them any anxiety, but then if I place them together in a neutral tank, the same anxiety would probably be more escalated anyway because the actual mice are meeting physically, rather than taking it a stage at a time by doing the cage/terriroty intros first.


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## AnnB

I didn't even go as far as putting the mice into each other's cages first. I just put the older and more outgoing girls into the younger girls' cage, having first taken some of the bedding from the older girls' cage and mixed it up and I also swapped the silent spinners and rope toys around a bit. I gave the older girls their nestbox and also left the younger girls' nestbox where it was. I thought this would be a recipe for disaster especially as the first thing each group did was explore each other's nestbox but actually it worked really well.


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## racingmouse

So do you think it`s better to just switch some of the `pee covered` accessories into one anothers cages? Like switching wheels, egg-boxes or some nesting material? Maybe over a week duration before doing one to one intros?

I will only have two females to introduce anyway at some point this year, so it will be one-on-one and not a group, so I should`nt have many problems. (she hopes!) :roll:


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## AnnB

I can't promise it will work every time (because like you I normally introduce on neutral territory) but it certainly worked for me last time and I transferred everything in the one evening.


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## racingmouse

Food for thought Ann, thanks. Something I can at least try pre-intros and hope it will help. The girls are currently living side-by-side and probably will be for a few more months yet. I have a female who is now in her 18th month, so when she passes, I will then have her cagemate and the smaller female who lives `next door` to introduce to each other. That`s the plan anyway! Until then, I will just leave things as they are and every now and then, place a few of each mouses` toys into their cages and see how they react to the different smells.


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