# Is this feasible?



## RockyMountainMice

I have seen a few of these setups where people recreate a natural type of habitat for their mice, a lot like a lizard terrarium.
Here's one quick example on youtube, of course there are many out there. 





Has anyone here every kept mice in such a way? Or known anyone who has?

I have always thought that this was a very cool idea and that the mice who live in this type of habitat (provided that it's set up properly) must be so happy and well-stimulated. For example, I had a rat years ago who I kept outside during the warmer part of the year in a very natural setting, he lived over 4 years which is great for a rat, for those who aren't familiar with them. Especially for a runt from a filthy feeder bin! He never had any health problems besides those that resulted from old age in his last few months and the occasional injuries - which happened during his time indoors and all involved cage parts/toys/other non-natural things. I can't help but think, comparing him to my other rats, that he benefited a lot because of his more natural living arrangements.

So (as some of you may know) I have been "on the fence" about what sort of set up I want for the (pet) mice that I will be getting in the near future. More and more, I can't help but look at my empty 30 gallon and think what an awesome mouse terrarium it _could_ be.

Here is a quick/badly done illustration of what I am envisioning.










Would something like this be do-able?
Obviously my main concern would be cleaning... 
I would like to keep a small group of does in there. Maybe 4-6?

Any input at all, even if it bursts my bubble, would be appreciated!


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## Frizzle

Well, my thoughts... I think you'd probably want to sterilize the soil. I don't know much about the potting stuff/if its pre-sterile, etc... But I'd worry about parasites. Also which soils are per-treated with chemicals/pesticides, these could be harmful to your mice. I really like the root bit, I feel like mice would love to hide in between there! Do you plan on the grass growing naturally, or are you going to swap out a new piece every now and then? Because in that scenario, you'd once again want sterile soil, and would want to grow the grass in your house away from out-side pests. Maybe that's just me being paranoid, but I really don't like the idea of internal parasites. : P Blah.

I guess it also depends on how deep of a layer you want to go. I'd worry about tunnels collapsing during cleaning, resulting in squished mice or stirring up dust that could result in respiratory irritation. I see the layer in the video was also not to deep, it looks mainly kickable. Its a cute video, btw.


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## candycorn

The biggest problem I would see is clean up. With reptiles, they only deficate once a week or less, and the urates are mainly solid. It's easy to clean up without having to replace all the soil. With mice, they will fill that cage with urine and you would have to replace the soil one a week. That would get very expensive and difficult to maintain, impossible if you wanted live plants.


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## Stina

Soil actually makes a great bedding for mice, and no, it does NOT have to be changed once a week! B/c of soils organic properties, it neutralizes a lot of waste. If its not overstocked it wouldn't have to be changed often at all...less then once a month even. The odor neutralizing is OUTSTANDING. The only thing you would want to do is keep is slightly moist (mist it a little every day or so)....as it becomes very dusty if it gets too dry (however the dust from soil does not seem to affect mice at all). I have used soil for mice, and have known a few others that have as well. The only reason I don't still use it is b/c they throw the dirt out and it gets so dusty. I used just organic soil and baked it in oven to kill any nasties before I used it.

The only problem I see with this idea is the grass......it will NEVER have a chance to grow with mice in there b/c they WILL eat it...and the seeds...lol


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## Frizzle

^^^
Regarding the grass, she could have a plot of it growing by a window, and just take a chunk out to place in with the mice whenever it needs replaceing.


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## Stina

That would probably be pretty much every day...lol


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## Rhasputin

The nature center here has something like that with mice in it. They have a natural setting, with an old tennis shoe in it, that the mice live in. It seems nice, and they have plants growing in it. I'm sure there's some kind of magical balance between space, plants, and mouse destructive urges to consider for success. :lol:


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## mousery_girl

without natural light it would be difficult to grow grass, have always loved this idea tho... however i don't think its sustainable with the plants and soil... :?


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## RockyMountainMice

Thanks a lot for the input everyone! 
Stina, that's what I have heard about soil from others who've tried it. I really like the idea.

Everything (substrate, branches/logs, rocks, etc) will be sanitized by being kept in the deep freeze for about a week or so before being placed into the tank. All plants that I add I will grow myself from organic seeds to ensure that no harmful chemicals have been used. I have a few natural type of planted aquariums and am currently working on our Marlbed Geckos' terrarium, so I have got some experience with the general idea. We are always buying a bunch of substrates and accessories for these things anyways, so if the plan doesn't come together as I'm hoping it will - at least I can say that I tried! 

As for the grass, I'll be doing something similar to Fizzles' idea. I plan to get 2-3 little pots which I will plant and grow under a suited light (indoors) so that I can switch them out and replace them whenever they get ravaged. I used to make a "digging box" for my rats using birdseed and cat-grass in the same sort of fashion. I might add some Spider-Plants to the mix as well. They're completely edible but I don't yet know how well they will do or how long they will last - it's worth a try though.

I also plan to fill the tank with substrate and have some grass growing in there before the mice are introduced. That way it will be more compact and root-bound, which will be better for tunneling and the plants growing (not in a pot) would help with cleanliness by turning all of the mousey wastes into fertilizers.

I don't see dust being too much of a problem at all. Obviously it depends on the substrate, but the stuff I am planning to use (a combo of organic potting/top soil and peat moss) has not been to dusty at all in my experience. I may be mixing a bit of straw into the substrate too but not sure... I know that my ratty boy who lived outside never had any respiratory issues and he was always rummaging through the dirt getting dusty, so maybe the dust from soil is not as irritating either? I'd imagine it wouldn't be as many small (wild) critters live in undergound burrows without issue.

All in all I am thinking it's definitely worth a shot, it's not like it could hurt to try.


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## kellyt

What about growing wheatgrass it needs no soil to grow so means sanitation could be easier?


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## Stina

There are a lot of nasties that can survive freezing temperatures....think winter  Baking is a MUCH better sanitizer!

wood dust and paper dust are so totally different from soil dust! The dust from dry soil is just annoying and messy...it gets EVERYWHERE if you have it indoors and don't keep it slightly moist!


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## RockyMountainMice

Yes I suppose you are right about that. I will bake any natural items just to be safe. 

Yeah I know what you mean about it getting about the house. I am not too worried about that though, I doubt I will notice it with all the dirt and hair our dogs/cats/terrariums bring into this house! :lol: I will mist it if it seems too dusty but I wouldn't want a bunch of damp mousies! Hahaha


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## RockyMountainMice

Would this soil be safe? 
http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index ... otting+soi


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## Stina

I would try to get a soil without vermiculite and perlite personally.


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## RockyMountainMice

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I just can't find any.


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## RockyMountainMice

So I researched it a bit online and I can't find anything supporting that Perlite or Vermiculite are toxic - to mice or anything else. :| 
Of course, I want to be *sure* it is safe before I use it, just like anything else....


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## RockyMountainMice

What about this? http://exo-terra.com/en/products/planta ... _brick.php
It's made for reptiles and from what I've heard you don't need to bake it or anything.
Wouldn't baking it kill all the good bacteria too?


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## Stina

I've used that stuff before...love it!

Baking probably would kill good bacteria as well, yes....but I still think its better to remove any nasties! You could always put a little aquarium bacteria in there. I never had any issues after baking anything though.


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## RockyMountainMice

Aw man, why didn't I think of using some water from the aquarium to add good bacteria!? :lol: Duh.
Thank you Stina! 

I am so excited to get this all set up. And to get some mice! 

ETA:

So I searched online and the package (of compressed Exo Terra soil) says to pour warm-hat water on it and leave it to expand. Everyone who owns reptiles that I've seen posting about it says they pour boiling hot water on to kill any parasites, but that it has always still worked well for keeping odor down and for growing plants. I think this is the route I will take.


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## Autumn2005

This is a very interesting topic, please keep it updated for how you're doing! Pictures of your set up would be great too!


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## RockyMountainMice

Thank you Autumn! I definitely will update you all on it. I'm very excited.
It will be a while before I actually set it up and get mice though, so don't hold your breath!


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## RockyMountainMice

Sorry I have been away so long everyone!  Lots of stuff on the go! hahaha
I wanted to update you all as I will be starting my project right away.

I've decided to use my 15 gallon (24"x12") tank instead of the 30 gallon for a number of reasons. Because of my choice in a smaller enclosure, I've also decided to go with a smaller group of just 3 females. I considered 4 but I want them to have a good amount of space, I'm not sure if they'd be happier with another member in their group or the extra space. Any input on this matter would be appreciated. 

I will be using a combination of peat moss and terrarium soil (as I posted previously) for substrate. I will be buying a variety of seeds when I have the time/money to order them, so far I have a mix of herb and vegetable seeds to start off with. Another thing I wanted to ask about is lighting. I have a few different lights I could use, the one I will be starting it off with (during the planting phase before I get mice) is a CFL made for an aquarium. I don't want to use a light that will hurt their eyes though I thought I would ask about this. It will be on about 6-8 hours a day and I plan to provide a lot of shaded areas, would that work? I need to find a balance! Hahaha

I ran into the issue of finding natural looking hides, dishes toys and a natural looking water supply, to avoid throwing off the visual appeal of the tank. Then a little light-bulb went of in my head, reptile supplies! I will be purchasing this: http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/water_well.php It's the perfect solution to my water-bottle issue! 









I will post more details and photos when I can.  Any comments, advice or questions are more than welcome!


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## Rhasputin

You may find that the dish gets too dirty too fast. If so you can use a regular water bottle, make a thin wire hanger so it's barely visable, and glue sticks or fake plants to the bottle to camouflage it.

You could also bury toilet paper and paper towel tubes in the dirt so they can dig around and find them and use them for tunnels.


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## Stina

The water in that will get SOOOO dirty so fast.....I've used similar bottles to those when I worked in pet stores and they SUCKED. It is pretty much completely pointless to have the bottle in there b/c the water gets nasty so fast that you have to dump it and clean it out at least once a day (if not more) regardless......I would use a bottle with a wire in a corner and just put a piece of mopani wood or something in front of it. Mopani wood is awesome...it looks great and you can often find pieces that have a flattish/concave side that makes it great for hiding places and things...lol


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## Autumn2005

I agree with the water... Once I ran out of water bottles and tried using dishes... it was horrible and the mice got soaked and the bin got soaked, and it stank--! You can also try the reptile hides, the ones that look like half logs, to hide a bottle.


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## Emfa Mouse

I use a small container for my two does at the minute and I have to clean it out at least once a day because they kick all the wood shaving in it. :evil: It's so annoying!


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## MojoMouse

Sabrina said:


> I have seen a few of these setups where people recreate a natural type of habitat for their mice, a lot like a lizard terrarium.
> Here's one quick example on youtube, of course there are many out there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone here every kept mice in such a way? Or known anyone who has?


Haha, the video clip shows my display at a Sydney show a few years ago!  I had no idea this was on youtube. You can even hear me talking to the kids. 

I used to keep mice in a (semi) natural environment, before I was a breeder and changed to tubs for convenience. It's a great way to keep mice, and they thrive in an environment where they can express their natural behaviours such as digging and making tunnels.

Here is the terrarium I set up for the display (shown in the youtube clip) before the mice excavated it:










I didn't keep the parsley in there all the time - I rotated it for a day, every now and then, but mostly it was outside growing in the sun. I also didn't keep lettuce in there permanently - the container was just to decorate it a bit for the show, but I ended up removing it when the mice started eating the lettuce. 

The more permanent "semi natural" enclosure I kept was more like the following:

















The first pic shows how I had non natural stuff at the higher level, including a wheel. 
The second pic is a close-up of the base substrate where the mice have tunnelled and built rooms. The "room" you see is visible because it's built against the glass. I think it must have been their sun room. 

The bigggest problem with the substrate - whether soil or other material, is mould. Parasites are also a potential issue, but baking it slowly in a low oven for several hours drys it out and kills parasites and fungal spores.

A good alternative to pure soil, if you just want a substrate that mice can dig and tunnel in, is a layered set up, with paper based cat litter at the bottom, some (baked) soil, then a layer of coconut coir, more soil, then shredded brown paper, then a variety of little sticks, tree bark (not from toxic trees with phenols), bits of leaf litter (baked to remove parasites) then more coir on top, and some larger sticks that they can arrange as walkways.

This set up doesn't get mouldy. An added advantage is that once mice start building and tunnelling in this kind of environment, they get very picky about their toilet habits - they tend to pick a spot to use, and keep the rest of their environment relatively clean. Very handy in that you can spot clean. The set up lasts for weeks before it needs to be totally cleaned out and substrate replaced.

The other thing about keeping mice in a natural, or semi natural environment, is that it is incredibly entertaining watching the mice, in their litle communities, go about organising their little world to their liking. Mice are natural builders and well as tunnel diggers, and some of their architectural excavations and constructions are amazing. After a while in an environment that they can work with, they can build an amazing array of rooms, interconnecting tunnels and even above the ground walkways leading to "day beds".


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