# Is this argenté crème(ish)?



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Hello everybody.

I am wondering if I have argenté crème, or something close to it, here. These babies are just about three weeks old. Before I show you the pictures of the baby in question, here is the litter's background:

*Sire:* the father is a very pale dove (a/a C/c p/p) ultimately from European lines who is from mice who are linked on the C-and P-locus (dove X dove often produces PEWs).

*Dam:* the mother is a homozygous agouti ultimately from European lines (A/A C/? P/p). She may or may not carry chinchilla-it is in her background, for sure.

Now the babies. There are five from this litter. One is a regular agouti. Another is a darker agouti. One is argenté. One appears to be a PEW, although that isn't possible if the mother doesn't carry PEW. And one&#8230;is a bit darker than the one who appears PEW, but dark enough to notice the difference.




































(this pic is not very good, but it shows the difference in shade well)










I am pretty good with genetics, but I am scratching my head over this litter. I am a little bit unsure of what is going on. The only colors I have seen online of any mouse similar to this are the argenté crème pictures on Finnmous.

My only guess as to genotype for this mouse is A/a c^ch/c p/p.

Does anybody have any other feedback?

P.S. The $1 US note is for color reference only. I don't have any pounds or euros, though I will gladly accept a stack of either if you want to mail them to me.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Argente creme should have a very pale bluish or silver undercoat. I see no hint of that. IS there any chance of it being c^e c^e? That could yield a REW that is not albino.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

There is an undercoat, but it's very, very pale blue, almost white. I couldn't get a picture of it though because it's so light. :/

I will ask the breeder I got the parents from about the possibility of c(e)/c(e).


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

If the 'argente cremes' are c/cch rather than cch/cch, that may explain the extreme paleness of the undercoat. I think A- ce/ce p/p would just be a streaky cream?

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

That's what I was thinking. But what trips me up is the linkage of the c and p. I know for sure that c and p are linked in the father's lineage, because two doves from the line, mated together, often produce PEW.

But that would not be true for c(ch) and p, right?

So a mouse who got a copy of c and p, but who also got a copy of c(ch) would have to get a P due to the c(ch) not being linked to p as well, right?

Needless to say, it's confusing. Especially at 7am.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

She must be a very light argente cream then. PEW's aren't always albinos ( deja vu pardon me if I'm repeating myself).


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

She can't be a real argente creme, though, because she'd need two chinchilla genes and that's impossible from this mating (my lines I've gotten from WNT are tracked carefully; I know who carries what with pretty good certainty). That's why I put "ish" in the question. 

I've since asked the founder of the AFRMA and I am waiting to see if she has anything to say. I will keep everybody updated.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Pink eyed Cream?


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Can't be cream if it has pale blue/silver base color.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

WillowDragon said:


> Pink eyed Cream?


What is a pink-eyed creme, genetically?


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

For PE cream, look what I just found: http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/cream.html

The top mouse looks almost EXACTLY like the one I have. But according to the genetics, this requires Ay/* which I do not have here and c(ch)/c(ch), when the most I could possibly have is c(ch)/c.

Would that combination do this, as well?

Hmm...


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## Cathie (Nov 26, 2009)

Argente creams can be either c(ch)/c(ch), which has darker cream tips, or c(ch)/c which has lighter cream tips. I've bred both. With the lighter genotype, the mouse looks to be a PEW until 4 - 5 weeks oul when the tips darken somewhat. However, side by side with a true PEW you can see a slight difference in colour, even when they are fuzzies.

Both c and ch can be linked to p with the crossed C and P locus.

With your mouse in the pic it's impossible to tell unless you can get a close up of the fur parted. Argente creams have a very pale, almost white undercoat with distinct cream tips on the hairs. I think they are a delicate and very beautiful variety.


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## violet1991 (Oct 3, 2008)

what are the siblings?  I can't tell awfully well, but the others look argente and agouti, so if you ask me...the pale ones probably are argente creme?
sorry, just niced in your first post, they are... in that case I'd make a quick assumption they ARE.

Vi x


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks everybody! I'm surprised this post is still active.

What has ended up happening is that the male developed points(?!). The female has not, but it is impossible for her to be PEW if the male has points, so I am assuming she is something that's washed-out to the point of looking PEW.

The siblings are agouti and argente, yes.


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