# New Satins



## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Yesterday I picked up three new Satins. Two sisters and a partial relation male.
The girls, I'm pretty sure are Albino or PEW. One has longer hair than the other, who has very short hair.
Not sure what's up with the lighting in my bedroom today, no mouse I take a photo of shows up quite right, but in person these three do have the very silky, shiny coats of Satins, if it's not apparent from photos.

LH Female; I love the way her shiny coat just soaks up the light.









SH Female









And then we have the male. LH Satin for sure, but no idea on what he'd be called in terms of color rather than coat texture.
Forgive photo quality, this is the first time he's ever been alone, so he's very nervous and moves quickly.

Showing his long guard(?) hairs.









His tail and ears in person are slightly darker than the females.









Sadly the best shot of the nose marking I could get.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

It does look like he has a very faded light nose spot, and if he is related to the pew's id go for himmi.
with colour points, unless the colour is a pinkeye diluted colour they normaly have black eyes, whihc is why they are also called black eyed siamese in some places.

He may darken a bit as he gets older but it wont be by much, how old is he now?


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Estimated just under two months, as it was the beginning of January that they were first listed as for sale.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

so they might get a bit darker in the next month then.


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

So, if I've got my genetics right, and only considering the genes we can see;
He is most probably a/a c/c^h sa/sa, yes?
IF the girls are just plain old a/a c/c sa/sa, without anything hiding in their genes, then crossing them would give a 50% chance of getting Him Satins, and 25% (out of the 50) chance of female Him Satins.
If one of those Him Satin females was bred to our original c/c^h up above (hoping the Mothering females are plain old c/c), that would give a 25% chance of real Siamese in the second filial generation.

Correct...?


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Yep, well that is if you not unlucky and end up with no one inheriting the ch lol, the amount of times I've put ch,ch to C,ch and got a whole litter of blacks


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Yeah, gotta deal with luck, and worry that these albino girls are some weird gene variation of PEW.
It'll still be a while before they'll be bred, so I have plenty of time to worry. >.<
Won't even be introducing the boy until my current litter is re-homed.


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

Just saw photos of his parents. His mother looks much more Siamese than him. Tail, ears, feet dark too with deep if not perfect markings, and a dirtier coat.
His father is albino.
So assuming c/c bred with c^h/c^h it's 100% logical he's a c/c^h... Yes?
With that in mind, if we know for certain there's c/c males in the breeders mix, and there was the chance these three are half-siblings, that leaves Dad as most probably a c/c for the two females, with an unknown female.

So still no idea what they'd be carrying, but it eases my mind a little.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Yep that solves it then, then he is c,ch. 
Albino and pew are the same thing. So the girls are c,c

So breed them and you get 
50% chance of pew
50% chance of himmi

Keep and breed the himmis and you will get 
50% chance of himmi
25% chance of siam
25% chance of pew


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

If I got a Doe in those 25% of possible Siamese, breeding to the original Him I can wind up with 50% Siamese the litter after the first partial Siamese litter, and then breeding her to a Siamese son would get 100% Siamese... Correct? So we're looking at 4(?) generations before pure Siamese? Assuming nothing happens to the breeding male. And still crossing our fingers on no hidden alleles.

Would going that far require out-crossing at some point due to any dilution I'm not aware of?
Are there out-crosses to be strictly avoided when attempting to fix color if it'll need fixing?


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

From what I have read it takes 20 generations of inbreeding before it can be classed as pure.


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## Paradigmatic (Jan 22, 2013)

I mean pure in the fact that we'd only be expecting Siamese, rather than a truly pure breed.


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## pro-petz (Nov 14, 2012)

In theory then 4 generations you should expect only siams, I would have another line of Blacks going aswell to use for outcrosses and darkening the points with the view of improving the black to show standard but have it also carrying the siam genes so that at least a percentage of the offspring will also be the siams where by you can then either use the blacks carrying the gene or the siam offspring to use to produce the quantity.

All depends on how much space you have available 3 bucks 30 does should provide 3 lines one pure black 1 pureish siams and 1 blacks carrying siams I think that would be right, PPV is well up on siams and genetics.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

Pro s advice is good, use black as an outcross for darkening points and shading. Cream can be used for type as there black based well show one's anyway, using pew unless you know what is is under that white risks adding more colours.. Avoid choc as you'll have trouble with who is seal and who is choc.

At the moment I don't bother keeping back siam bucks just the C,ch black bucks. But I will be next time as I want more blue points.


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