# How to avoid live feeders?



## Daphne

My parents bred cats, primarily for pets and not for show. When breeding mice, that would be my main intention - to provide quality pets for animal lovers.

However, I know that that's not how everyone sees mice. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people feeding mice to their reptiles. After all, they have to eat too! But, I am really disturbed by the thought of live feeding. Am I right in saying that it's illegal in the UK? Regardless, I know people do it.

Is there any way to prevent mice going as live feeders? Other than bumping the price up, of course. I don't want to charge an extortionate fee though, and even if a snake owner thinks that the price is too high for a live feeder, they might just go ahead and buy them to breed for themselves.

I know you can check out potential owners and question them, but I still feel like there's no surefire way of stopping it.

I am wondering if maybe providing pre-killed mice for a cheaper price would discourage this? But then, I cannot imagine killing a mouse myself... it seems wrong. I know that culling litters is normal, so it's something I'm going to have to get used to. I'd feel better about doing it if I thought it would discourage people from buying my live mice to use as feeders.

Thoughts on this whole thing would be appreciated!


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## SarahC

Feeding live is a grey area but it isn't illegal.Selling animals for live feeding is.You can't be certain of who you are selling to and if it worries you that much I'd reconsider taking up breeding.Pet bucks are particularly hard to place in good homes and culling or keeping all the unplaced males who may have to be housed alone will have to be faced.


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## Daphne

Culling isn't something that bothers me to the extent that I would not breed. I don't see it as "wrong" in a general sense, it's just that it feels wrong to me. I can't imagine doing in myself. I think this is something I could get used to though, since culling is pretty much always done for a good reason (i.e. to get healthier/larger mice in a litter, or even to feed to another animal). I just need to work past my "how can I kill a little cute animal?!" thing first. As a vegetarian, I can't even bear the thought of killing a chicken or pig (though this is partly because humans don't _need_ to eat meat, whereas many animals like snakes do). And keeping on bucks doesn't bother me, as I don't want to breed on a huge scale and we have a big spare room that we're using for animals right now.

It's just the idea of a mouse suffering an "inhumane" death (at the jaws of a reptile, I mean) that I really don't like the thought of. I just don't agree with live-feeding at all, it's very rarely necessary. I know it's impossible to know at the end of the day, and I don't think it would stop me from breeding because to me the positives outweigh the negatives. But I would like to do everything in my power to keep it reduced to a minimum.


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## jammin32

i like you hate the idea of mice suffering by being fed to other animals and as you have already said its almost impossible to know if someone who seems genuine does in fact then use them as feeders, sometimes depending on the type of person you get come round you can get a rough idea of there intentions.


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## Velvet_Meece

Though i don't sell for livefood and i don't live feed myself.
I'm not too fussed whether those who buy mice off me, do.

It may sound harsh, but as long as i don't know about it, and as long as i don't have to see or hear about it, i'm really not too bothered. 
I won't have one person keep coming to me for mice though over and over. As i do not wish to be known as supplying someone with live mice. 
I wouldn't mind selling frozen. But as it stands, only friends have them from me anyway, which suits me just nicely!


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## PPVallhunds

its just something you have to except realy, as even if you speak to people befor you sell them mice you wont know if there lieing to you, but as you said bumping up the price would discourage people looking for food, so find out what frozen food is being sold for in your area and keep the price above that. However this could also detre pet buyers, as mice are not popular pets if your selling mice for more than another pet breeder or pet shop localy they would preberly go to them unless your mice stood out in some way that made them worth the extra money.


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## Daphne

I guess a "what I don't know wont hurt me" attitude is the best to have in theory, it's just not knowing if I could do it in practice. I think home-checks like you would do with larger animals are definitely pushing the boundaries, I wouldn't want to do that. So I guess it's a case of higher pricing (but as you say PPVallhunds, not too high. I don't want to make money so I'd try to stay below pet shop prices but above feeder prices) and questioning buyers. And I suppose as long as I don't know they're going as live feeders, I have nothing to worry about. It's just hard to come to terms with


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## sys15

Daphne said:


> I am wondering if maybe providing pre-killed mice for a cheaper price would discourage this?


if someone goes to the trouble of tracking down a mouse breeder, they likely have good reason (at least to them) to wish to purchase live mice from that breeder. i'm in the us, but at least here, it is not difficult or expensive to find frozen mice. i'd consider it pretty unlikely that a potential purchaser would be attempting to purchase live because they don't have convenient access to cheaper frozens.


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## besty74

i don't know how true it is but i have heard people say that some fussy snakes won't eat frozen, but you can buy live mice cheap on reptile forums so just keep your price above that and all should be okay.


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## MissPorter13

If it's any consolation, any reptile owners who wish to live-feed their animals on a regular basis will more than likely opt to breed their own mice or use ones from a friend that also has reptiles and does the same. 
Mice are pretty inexpensive to breed and keep especially if not to show or pet standards so I'd say the worst case scenario would be people coming to you to source their first mice from which to breed their feeder mice. Remember though, people won't want to be feeding their reptiles unhealthy, poor quality mice so the chances are even if any of your mice ended up being kept for this purpose they would still be looked after and kept happy and healthy.

Don't dwell on it but the way to think of it is that no matter what else, you've done your best to take care of them, give them a good start in life and find them a responsible home


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## Daphne

It does make me feel better to think that they would at least look after any mice they bred, I suppose. I guess it is a case of putting it out of my mind as much as possible. I know some very fussy snakes will absolutely refuse to eat dead food, but 9 times out of 10 they can be encouraged to take frozens, or fresh-killed at least. I just don't get why most people do it, live food can be harmful to the snake too!


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## MissPorter13

Most owners won't live feed because it is usually so unnecessary, and because of the damage it can cause the reptiles like you said! A small amount of research on Google would soon put a lot of people off live feeding, and personally I never would/could do it myself.


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## MojoMouse

Looking on google turned up lots of useful information. However, it also showed a huge amount of videos posted that show live feeding. Most are by people who enjoy the spectacle of the small animal being hunted and eaten by the snake. I find this disturbing on so many levels. What they do privately is one thing, but to post the videos of the terrified animal, followed by its death throes, while they're laughing and carrying on?  It's treated liike a blood sport, and most of these vids are American.

As far as I know, the practice of live feeding is discouraged, if not illegal, in the UK and Australia. It may just be the sale of animals for live feeding, though, that's actually illegal. A good start, though.


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## Seafolly

I honestly don't think you can prevent it. There are precautions like jacking the price, but even a home check (a bit invasive) is no guarantee. I personally can't bury my head in the sand with this issue as I feel pretty strongly that mice I bring into the world shouldn't be live fed. This is why I culled my boys while pinkies- I intended to keep every female I produced. Luckily for me, there were only 3! Cull or keep is how I avoid this. The exception being finding a fellow breeder in which case he/she are welcome to trade or adopt. (and I mean for pet rather than strictly feeder breeder)

...the crappy part to this story is I just found a breeder who really wants to add blue to her line so I didn't have to cull that one black eyed boy. ;_;


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## Daphne

Cull or keep is a good strategy for people who breed for themselves or for show, but I would quite like to provide mice to pet homes as well (continuing my parents pet breeding legacy, I guess), and it seems like there's just no way around it  I've been looking up the laws, it's definitely not illegal here in the UK but is very much discouraged. I may say, when adopting out my mice, that I would strongly prefer for them to not go as live feeders and hope that some people at least have a conscience... I don't mind them going as feeders (I'd prefer for them not to, of course, but it really is unavoidable and I'd rather people bought their feeders from someone who gave them a nice life) as long as they are humanely killed.


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## Frizzle

Advertise your mice as "for pets, frozen feeders, or feeder breeders." Make a point to say the reason doesn't impact your decision to sell, just what you will sell to whom. Then people feel they can be honest, and if someone comes looking for live feeders, you can say the add is old and you are currently out of stock.


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## Velvet_Meece

Frizzle said:


> Advertise your mice as "for pets, frozen feeders, or feeder breeders." Make a point to say the reason doesn't impact your decision to sell, just what you will sell to whom. Then people feel they can be honest, and if someone comes looking for live feeders, you can say the add is old and you are currently out of stock.


True, and it would be nice if everyone could be so open as to what they're selling for. 
But even though it would attract honesty, unfortunately it would also attract 'do-gooders' for want of a better word, who fancy throwing some abuse at you and telling others you sell for food and steering potential new owners away from you... sad but true. 
I started out as a feeder breeder, primarily sold stock for food only. But did advertise for pets as and where i could, sadly the former did mean i was blacklisted by a lot of people for being this uncaring person who breeds en masse without any care for the welfare of the animals i was selling therefore they would be unhealthy and unfit for use as pets....

Things are better once you get into the right group of people, but its still not nice to be hated by people who judge without knowing you.


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## tinyhartmouseries

There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking that your animals go as "pets only". You will get the odd person that yells at you for this or tries to fool you, but that's the risk, as others have said. I am someone who culls litters down to what I would be willing to keep. Occasionally I will have a mouse or two available to other breeders or to the rare pet owner. I will say that when I was giving mice as pets, it stressed me out pretty badly. Meeting new people and immediately trusting them is not my strongest trait, I'd often be paranoid and worried if they didn't check in afterwards, etc. If you decide you want to take this goal on, then kudos to you but do be prepared for a few heartaches before your intuition kicks in. You set your rules and stick to them as far as adoption requirements!!!


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## Frizzle

While I haven't had a lot of luck finding pet homes, I've never had anyone email me and berate me for advertising feeders in addition to pets. Where I'm from mice really aren't super popular, and a portion of what I have sold has been word of mouth. I've been donating my extra's to http://www.facebook.com/RaptorEducationGroupInc, a couple other members donate to other wildlife centers close to them.


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## morning-star

In some rare cases the only way to get a snake to eat is try live -i'd provide 'live' food for any reptile keeper provided there is a very good reason, (being a snake keeper myself. I'd give them away to avoid the selling rule, but ask for a small 'donation' if needed) but otherwise in captivity it is very unnecessary and cruel -not just for the mouse but for the snake. In the wild if the snake doesn't catch its prey first time it'll just run away but in a cage where it cannot run it MAY turn on the snake and cause serious damage, and even kill the snake - especially if the snake is sick etc and is refusing to fight back.

the only other option other than trying 'live' food for a snake thats refusing to eat for a long time is force feeding the snake, which is very stressful and is a real last resort.

I sell to feeder breeder -the ones I know breed and cull sensibly, and of course pet breeders and pet homes.

I sell mine at £3 - £5 a mouse mostly, which tends to put of the idiots whist not being too stupidly priced.

If your worried too ask a few standard questions to the buyer (like "have you kept mice?" "do you have a cage etc?" "do you want them for breeding or pets?" etc) that way you can just say no if their responses seem dodgy or inadequate.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I've gotten angry emails from people, saying that my mice were not special and they had as much right to feed my mice to their snakes as any other mice. Truly weird...They were mad that I said "pet only".
Also gotten emails from people describing how they would feed my mice to a snake and mocking me for keeping pet mice. People are truly strange.


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## sys15

tinyhartmouseries said:


> I've gotten angry emails from people, saying that my mice were not special and they had as much right to feed my mice to their snakes as any other mice. Truly weird...They were mad that I said "pet only".
> Also gotten emails from people describing how they would feed my mice to a snake and mocking me for keeping pet mice. People are truly strange.


i guess it is all a matter of visibility and/or advertising, but i find this beyond strange. i have a freezer full of mice that i can't give away - i just want them to not be wasted. and i'd happily give/sell live mice to anyone that would want them, for whatever reason. i've never had anyone ask.

when feeder mice are like $0.20 ea in bulk, it's just bizarre to me that anyone would go to the effort of finding a pet/show mouse breeder and begging/berating/tricking him or her into selling them mice.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Well yeah, it was weird. I don't really fib or lie, it happened for sure. I am pretty sure it was just Craigslist trolls, for some reason lots of people on Craigslist around here have the time and passion to harass people left and right. I don't use that site a whole lot any more. Whenever I'd post anything just about I'd get a stupid response from someone.

I had a lot of trouble giving my frozen away too, I finally found someone who takes the pinks.


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## Gill

I have been very fortunate in meeting a reputable local snake breeder (he does not feed "live"). As I dislike waste, the meeting has been beneficial to us both, especially as Shaun does the actual culling.


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## sys15

tinyhartmouseries said:


> Well yeah, it was weird. I don't really fib or lie, it happened for sure. I am pretty sure it was just Craigslist trolls.quote]
> 
> sorry, i didn't mean to suggest that it didn't happen. just that it was weird. the craigslist exposure probably explains it.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Certainly!


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## Daphne

As I live so close to London and am able to deliver to anywhere in the city, I'm hoping I won't find a shortage of people looking for mice, either frozen or as pets. I see live mice being sold as "food" for about £1 on reptile forums all the time, so I'm really hoping that most people will just go to them rather than someone who would prefer their mice to go to pet homes.


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## Mc.Macki Mice

I personally do live feeding, I think it is better for my monitor lizard to eat live stuff, and anyway the dead frozen mice smell so bad after they defrost (bleh).  There are so many mice in this world, more than there are people, and I don't think any living thing likes over-population. So it is all in opinion, not everyone likes the fact of giving there mice to live-feeders, but what about the reptiles, don't they need to eat to. I only let my monitor eat the PEW's, only because those are feeder mice. I only feed the bucks I don't need. My monitor needs 3 mice per week. So money adds up, that's why I keep the females and the occasional male for that purpose. (don't hate, appreciate)


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## PPVallhunds

yes reptiles need to eat but most dont need to eat rodents live, yes you get some who refuses everything else who must be fed live, but i just feel why stress the mouse and risk it biting the reptile when you dont have to. Also in the UK its a grey area and you are ment to only live food if the animals life is a risk if you dont however the RSPCA have said they will prosercute ANY live feeding case they come across regardless of the reasons for live feeding.
If you dont like the smell of defrosted why not kill them and then put them in freshly killed? there will be no nutritonal diffrence between a live and freshly killed mouse.

My spairs go for food but i prekill them myself.


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## Mc.Macki Mice

/i'm not from the Uk. I am American, and over here they wan't you to feed the reptiles live, they belive it's better for them. Also out in the wild most reptiles catch their food alive, yes some do scavenge, but only when necessary. So I mean I would like it if my reptiles, felt like they were actually hunting and killing. And I don't have the heart to personally kill my own mice with my own hands.


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## TrixYogurt (iM)

Mc.Macki Mice said:


> /i'm not from the Uk. I am American, and over here they wan't you to feed the reptiles live, they belive it's better for them. Also out in the wild most reptiles catch their food alive, yes some do scavenge, but only when necessary. So I mean I would like it if my reptiles, felt like they were actually hunting and killing. And I don't have the heart to personally kill my own mice with my own hands.


Reptiles anywhere, even in the US can be taught to eat dead food over live. There are the occasional few that never learn and require live but it isn't better or worse to feed frozen over live in any circumstance. It's kinder to the mice to avoid live feeders and doesn't affect the reptiles to eat either one.


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## Mc.Macki Mice

I have tried frozen food for my monitor, didn't work so...I have to feed him live. (I usually look away when he devours them.)


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## PPVallhunds

The is no benerfit to eating live just the risk of injury to the reptile and the stress to the mouse. Im sure there are lots of people in the US who feed prekilled, Its purly a presonal choice unless the animal is starvign its self into ill health by not eating. There are ways to tempt a reptile onto frozen like warming it up, braining it, waving it around, skipping a feed if they dont take (as long as its healthy a missed feed wont hurt it) ect. I know a snake that wouldnt eat prekilled mice so it was force fed when needed to keep it alive and offered the chance to take each feed, then one day out of the blue if took and now eats like a pig. The B&T Tegu at work isnt keen on birds but when needs must he gets given birds, if he doesnt eat it he goes without untill next time.

But if you wish to continue to feed mice live than thats your choice ad up to you, but i wouldnt talk too much about it online as im sure it will get peoples backs up, not the fact that the mice are bred for food but the fact there fed live.


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## pro-petz

Feeding live animals to reptiles is not illegal but may fall into a legal issue as regards to animal welfare and undue suffering of animals which is certainly something that even in the US is approached with the full intent of prosecution.


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## Mc.Macki Mice

Okay but it is my decision, I personally just think it is easier, and I don't understand when you said the mouse will be stressed, hes going to be eaten anyway. But I won't talk of it anymore. I might try some new things though, that isn't live feeding.


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## TomOdell

under certain circumstances live feeding is illegal
i would happily sell a live mouse to a friend who is a competent snake keeper that has a livefeeding/underweight and not feeding snake since their snake will die otherwise
if they want to do it for fun, to film it, to entertain, it is illegal as it is usually deemed unnecessary suffering.
i've got a livefeeding carpet python and that's going to be a long process to get her on to frozen, but at the end of the day.. my snake is my pet and i'm not letting her die.


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