# black tan



## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

How old do the mice have to be before their tan starts to develop?

My litter is nearly three weeks old and the two blues are developing the same kind of pale dirty tan that the buck had, but the blacks seem to be very silvery with black showing through more and do not resemble the tan colour of their blue siblings or the doe or buck. Doe was a bad tan but hers at least looks a nice pale chestnut type shade where you can see it (black pied tan)


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

As soon as the fur is in on the belly if it is a tan sill be tan.

You can get non tans from two tans if they both only have one tan gene each, so sounds like both your parents are at/a


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

I got a black self from the pairing, her belly is a lighter black but nothing like these, but it is very silvery, almost like the descriptions say pink eyed blue should look, with the black showing through under where the fur is a bit thinner than the top (the top is a silky black). The hairs that should be tan are so pale as to look like potential fox along the line where the black meets but its on the actual belly itself that they get the silky silvery appearance that the pictures show of silver mice. At least that is the best I can describe it as.

I was unable to get any good pictures but searching on google then the following couple are pretty close (its different mice, taken from a google image search, not my own photos, however they are the best I can find that show what I am seeing with my mice).

From the side I would guess very poor tan but the belly shot (put a red box around the area to look) shows what I am seeing with the pale and black through, only it is not as brilliant white but more a metallic silvery white.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Ok so bad (sorry ) photos of one of my babies


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

The baby pics are blurry enough that I can't tell what color those are. Sorry. 

From the previous two photos, though, I can tell you that the first one with the red box is a PIED black tan. The white you see in the middle is a white spot (also that mouse looks longhaired, maybe texel?). The second photo looks like a poor tan. That said, it's important to remember that it's common to be able to see the *skin* color under the belly fur, especially if the fur is ruffled or satin or just short/thin. Also, tans will darken with age, so what looks like a paler tan color now will often look more yellow-orange as an adult.


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## SamOfChaos (Nov 29, 2015)

They are pied, I have a male like that to. I soo hoped he'd be a fox ....


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

From your pics the second one is a pale tan, poor tans can be a light creamy colour. The first pic to way to blurt I'm afraid, it looks like it has bald patches but I'm sure that's just the blurry photo right?

I find the belly fur looks good and thick when they are fluffs, then once they are weaning age the belly looks crap and thin but then comes back again by 7-8 weeks.


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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Yeh the bold appearance is just the blur, sorry for the quality 

I had wondered at fox since it was so light but it seems as you said just thin at the moment showing base through so in a few weeks it should be thicker and probably pale tan


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## Lilly_C (Jun 11, 2016)

On the topic of tan... supposedly ours in Aus are very, very poor. Would a rich black tan simply be produced through generations of selectively breeding those animals with the best colour? I'm assuming that's how they developed such a lovely tan in Europe?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Yes, if you can't get access to anything with a richer redder color, you're just selecting generation after generation. It was done here with an all-American line by TinyHart and those that came before her, but even ten plus years of selecting for redder bellies got her about halfway between a petshop tan and the half-English tans I've got. Mine are still only haflway between that and the all-English tans that Joe has, but then mine come in different top colors. *shrug* It's a long slog, but I think well worth it!


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## Lilly_C (Jun 11, 2016)

Thanks for that! Do you think out-crossing to any other (warm-tone) self colours could contribute to the richness of the tan?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

It depends. It's not a matter of what color (yellow, chocolate, etc), but the intensity or quality of the red modifiers. Does that kinda make sense?


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## Lilly_C (Jun 11, 2016)

Hmm... somewhat. Do you have any favorite information links for when it comes to understanding genetics? I've done a lot of reading but as our Tans in Aus are so poor, and it's really something I'd love to work on, I'd like as much info (as to where to start) as I can get!

In your opinion, would simply breeding poor tan to poor tan and selectively picking for improved belly colour, be faster or slower than introducing higher quality (richer coloured) chocolates, red's etc. into the tan line?  Sorry to pick your brains!

Edit: Saying that, our Chocolates and Red's (Fawn) are all very poor here too... not sure if it would make a whole lot of difference?


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

If the chocs and reds/fawns are also poor in color, I wouldn't bother trying to outcross. You'll be stuck doing it the old-fashioned way and just picking the best and improving as you go.

As for genetics pages, I really love Finnmouse. There are still some things missing and some things that I don't personally agree with (like A^hvy), and plenty of the genes and varieties won't necessarily be available in all areas, but it's none the less the best I've found:
www.hiiret.fi

Cait's page is also quite good, with much more practical advice for certain varieties: 
fancymice.info


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