# How would you react?



## Mouse Queen 96 (Jul 11, 2011)

Heya guys,

I need advise on what you think i should do, but it isn't mousey related. So here is what happened i posted my boxer male who doesn't get along with any other animals on craigslist. I wrote about his requirments, and what i thought he should have in a family. I made the comment i breed labradors and boxer, and they live outside in 10ft by 12 ft runs that are attached to a heated and cooled building. I said i'd like Rock to go to a family before winter so he doesn't have to spend another winter outside and he can retire from breeding as a family dog. Well this lady emailed me saying i should never own animals, and that she is reporting me to ASPCA of Minnesota because i have a boxer outside, and sat there calling me names. I think she was being completly immature, and i tried explaining that it is heated and cooled, but she didn't care. Like i'm not scared that she reported me or anything like that, but i'd like to be the mature one and not get in a fight with this lady, but how would you react do getting her off your butt? My animals are all healthy, and is ASPCA of Minnesota came out here they'd say the same thing. I mean AKC comes out here and checks are kennel once a year because we have more than 5 breeding females.

Thanks guys


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Mark her email as spam, and you won't see anything else from her address. If you do see the ASPCA, don't be concerned. You're doing right by your animals. If anything, consider it an opportunity.

Walk around the kennels. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who knows nothing about breeding dogs. Who knows nothing about keeping dogs, even. And see what this person might see. Is there anything that even remotely looks questionable? If so, see what you can do. There is always an opportunity to upgrade our facilities, even when it's just upgrading how it looks to outsiders. And while that shouldn't matter, sometimes it does.

My mousery goes from looking like a hoarder's hide-out to a hobbyist's room when I put everything on shelving and sweep the floor really well. Of course, the floor gets messy immediately (we have indoor miniature chickens in the same room), and a few shavings on the floor isn't indicative of my care of the mice, but it looks better from an outsider's point of view. So, every time someone's coming over to check out the mice (or adopt, or buy, or whatever), it gets tidied up. That empty tank on the floor? Picked up, cleaned out, and shelved. The bag of bedding? Tied off and hidden under a cabinet.

Little stuff makes you look professional, and high-quality, even if you're already doing what you should be doing by the animals. It makes a difference to the humans.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

I'd just ignore the person.These rows break out all the time on the internet ,particularly between pet keepers and breeders.If everything is in order why bother worrying about her opinion.


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## Mouse Queen 96 (Jul 11, 2011)

I agree with you both completly. I have a puppy house ( a chicken coop renivated with whelping stalls, launolium, heat tile, etc) where i keep my outdoor cats in the winter and puppies. It gets messy having little puppies running around, but when people are coming cages are 100% spotless, floor sweeped, cat box clean. My rabbit house and mouse house is always spotless as is, except the floor as bedding is hard to keep in one spot :lol: Oh who cares i love my animals. Don't know what i'd do without them


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## Fraction (Aug 29, 2011)

So why are you breeding your reactive dog?

Why are your dogs living outside?

Have your dogs been health checked? Hips checked? Elbows checked? Checked for any other genetic ailments?

Are your dogs working? Do you do agility, flyball, obedience, rally, schutzhund, tracking, service work?

What are you contributing to your chosen breed by breeding your dogs?

If you can't answer these questions, you might not be cruel but you're a backyard breeder.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I personally think dogs should not be bred unless they pass all their health testing/genetic screenings and are exceptional show or working animals, or at least working on a title in some area. If a dog is not exceptional, you could be dooming it to a life of genetic conditions or behavioral problems.

Backyard breeding contributes heavily to dogs in shelters and euthanized by the tens of thousands per day. Unless there's some exceptional reason to breed dogs, many consider it much more responsible not to just because it's so incredibly easy to find a purebred in a shelter. Labs, for example, are the number 2 dogs in shelters behind pit bulls. Many would think we don't need more labs in this world unless they are the very best labs.


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## Mouse Queen 96 (Jul 11, 2011)

1) I breed my labradors for feild work, like FC, AFC, CFC, etc. But i'm bringing in show. My boxers are bred for agility.

2) I have 13 dogs, they can't all live in my house. Their kennels are large, they have a outdoor part, and indoor part. They are heated, and air conditioned. I have three male dogs just like mice i'd have huge fights, breeding males will also fight to the death. Females don't get along very well pregnant or inheat.

3) All of my dogs are health checked, up to date on shots, and microchipped. Every dog i own has been health tested for EIC, DM, and CMN. At the age of 2 years old for females they will be brought in to get OFA, CERTS, elbows, and cardio done. Males are brought in at 1 for hips. And the certs, elbows, cardio, and hips redone at 2.

4) I am contributing healthy good quality puppies for hunting, and now show. My dogs are clear of health problems and have amazing skills. The boxers contribute to doing amazing on the coarse.

Comments: My puppies aren't low quality at all. I offer a 25 month health garentee on all my puppies. They will be current on every shot, no matter how long i have them. They will come parasite free, and healthy. They will be vet checked, and have dew claws done (tails docked on boxers). I am not a backyard breeder. I am licensed in the state of Minnesota


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

She never said she's breeding the dog that doesn't get on well with others. She said she was rehoming it. One doesn't generally rehome one's breeding animals. As this is a mouse breeder's forum, it seems appropriate to extend a dog breeder the same courtesies we would extend to a mouse breeder. *Mouse Queen 96* started this thread because she's frustrated at having to defend her kennel to people who don't know the answers to those questions, but simply jump to conclusions. And rightly so. It's common in dog breeding, and it's common in mouse breeding. Pet owners regularly assume that breeders are mostly unscrupulous, and while there are unscrupulous breeders, those are not the people with expensive heated-and-cooled setups, regulatory oversight, and vet bills.


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## Mouse Queen 96 (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks Laigaie  Those kinds of questiosn don't bother me, it is the ones where the jump to conclusions right away without even talking to me. Ex: When i told her Rock was outside right now, she started yelling at me because he was supposably tied up outside. Without talking to me she started freaking out calling me names. I just wanted to see how people would react to being in the same situation.


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## Fraction (Aug 29, 2011)

'So here is what happened i posted my boxer male who doesn't get along with any other animals on craigslist. I wrote about his requirments, and what i thought he should have in a family. [...] I said i'd like Rock to go to a family before winter so he doesn't have to spend another winter outside and he can retire from breeding as a family dog.'

It sounded like you were breeding a reactive dog for the sole fact that he was owned. Since that seems to not be the case, I apologise for going to the immediate conclusion.

-

Most people who work, run genetic health tests, and are actually contributing good stock to their breed (as you seem to be doing) would have mentioned so immediately. Since you didn't, I did assume that you didn't do the tests and didn't work your dogs - your OP sounded like you bred dogs that lived their entire lives outdoors, weren't worked on the field, weren't worked in sports, weren't health checked, and so on.

You sound like you're doing good and greatly supporting your breeds, though.


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

I am also very pleased that you have the health testing done on your dogs and appear to have show aspirations, but work them for now. I think there is a TON of bad dog breeders out there, and because of them, unfortunetly, you may find yourself defending your practices often. BUT you should be proud to tell them that you are more ethical, definitely.
Also do you have anyone in your working circles that can take the boxer? C-list is sometimes not the best place for an intact animal to be sold-he'll likely be bred despite your wishes. Or, you could get him fixed before adopting out.


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## Mouse Queen 96 (Jul 11, 2011)

Fraction: I got him from a breeder who had been breeding him for 3 years, and i was going to breed him. But he doesn't like other animals, and that is a bad trait especially durring agility. Thanks and sorry for the confusion!


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## Mouse Queen 96 (Jul 11, 2011)

Tiny: I have a contract on him saying that if he isn't neutered within 60 days he will be taken back with no money back. Im just having trouble finding him a home with no other animals. I tried placing him with a person that had outdoor cats, and 5 minutes of being there he killed a baby kitten.  So my search is hard.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

:shock: Woas. I foster animals regularly, but if any animal has aggression issues such that they actually kill (or seriously harm) another animal... that's an animal not going to get a home. A roommate had a dog who broke into a another roommate's rat cage and paralyzed the rat. I told the dog owner she could move out with the dog alive or she could keep living there with the dog pts. Between the ultimatum and the final move-out date, the dog bit someone. Suffice to say, we do not allow that kind of aggression here. I can't believe the original breeder bred from him! Best of luck with your search, but do be careful. :?


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## Fraction (Aug 29, 2011)

Laigaie said:


> :shock: Woas. I foster animals regularly, but if any animal has aggression issues such that they actually kill (or seriously harm) another animal... that's an animal not going to get a home. A roommate had a dog who broke into a another roommate's rat cage and paralyzed the rat. I told the dog owner she could move out with the dog alive or she could keep living there with the dog pts. Between the ultimatum and the final move-out date, the dog bit someone. Suffice to say, we do not allow that kind of aggression here. I can't believe the original breeder bred from him! Best of luck with your search, but do be careful. :?


In all fairness, prey drive (the desire to hunt, chase and kill small, fast moving things) =/= aggression. Sounds like your roommate's dog was aggressive as well as having strong prey drive, but just because a dog kills a small animal (some dogs--such as ex-racing greyhounds--even have prey drive towards small, fast fellow dogs) doesn't mean they're necessarily aggressive.

My older dog has fairly moderate prey drive, moderate to high dog aggression with strange dogs, low to no dog aggression with familiar dogs, and absolutely no aggression toward people.


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## Mouse Queen 96 (Jul 11, 2011)

I agree. My labradors are bred for hunting, i have seen them chase and kill rabbits. I had one dog who attacked and killed a badger that came onto our land. I am lucky to still have her. Roc has a very high prey drive to cats, rabbits, chickens, etc, high aggression towards strange dogs, no aggression towards familiar dogs, and none towards people. I know Roc isn't aggresive, and let me tell you he is the most beautiful boxer i have seen that isn't show quality, but i need good traits for agility.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm all for animals being bred and trained for hunting. My dogs dig up and kill moles on a regular basis. Moles aren't in the house, handled by people in view of the dog, and present every single day. Prey drive =/= destroying a large, sturdy wire cage suddenly and with no warning after months of living there. This is not a rat who scampered across the floor. This is an old rat who lived quietly in a large cage up on a table until the dog decided to rip open the cage. Prey drive is what causes a predator to react predatorily to prey behavior. It's why our terrier can't be allowed to get into the chicken pen. But if our terrier decided to rip through chain link fence to get to the chickens, I'd say that's unacceptable. 
There is a line between prey drive and aggression. That line is based on whether the dog can be trained to remember limits. If your hunting dog kills stray feral cats, I'm uncomfortable, but I can see your point. If your hunting dog kills your pet cat after living with it for months and being trained that this cat is a family member, you have a problem. If your hunting dog cannot see another animal without attempting to attack it, you have a problem. 
Aside from all else, it's a legal problem. Animals who kill other pet animals are considered vicious in most cities, and cannot be allowed within city limits. Our Animal Services folks end up with so many calls about a dog that gets loose and kills the neighbor's indoor-outdoor cat, a dog who pulls off the leash and kills another dog being walked on the trail, a dog who injures a small child they see running through the park, a dog abandoned at the shelter after injuring another of the owner's dogs. Every single one of these dogs was put down. And so many owners try to defend their dogs, saying that it's natural for a dog to kill a cat, attack another dog, get confused by small children. Maybe, for some dogs, it is. That is why training for these animals is of the utmost importance, and the owner's or breeder's responsibility.


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## hlforumhl (Oct 2, 2011)

I do a lot of work to stop puppy mills and I'm currently founding a nonprofit organization to better the life of dogs in captivity called People for Dogs: Making Life Better for Man's Best Friend.
You sound like the kind of breeder I reccomend people go to instead of pet stores--dedicated, ethical, and your dogs are bred for a purpose. You should copy and paste the list of questions posed by Fraction and then your answers in an email to the woman, and after that, mark her as spam and ignore her. I have been called a hoarder because I have 20 snakes, and at one point I had 200 fancy mice and 70 spiny mice. I can assure you that they were all well cared for, clean, and both their physical and emotional needs were met. Sometimes you just have to ignore people that are too quick to judge. They don't know how hard it is to keep 13 dogs vs. only one or two, or 200 mice vs. only a few.


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