# Is my mouse sick? :(



## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

I picked up a few new mice today and within the last half hour one of them has started making some raspy noises and I think coughing? But I've never heard a mouse cough before so I don't know :? I took a video of her so you can hear what I'm talking about: 



 That's actually not as bad as before I'd gotten her out of her cage. I've looked up respiratory illnesses and I'm hoping that's not what it is because from the sounds of it that is NOT good news at all 

I brought her back in a carry cage on the train so she may have found the journey stressful. I put her into her new cage several hours ago now, it's a perfecto tank with the two shelves. I have all the food and treats etc on the top level so I put all the mice down on that one to start in case they were hungry after the journey and she tucked right in, she's been pigging out all night! But she hasn't moved from that top level :? She's just been sat there either eating or looking sleepy. After filming her I put her onto the bottom level and she had a sniff around. I think she's gone into a hide now so I assume she's sleeping, and I can't hear the raspy noise anymore. But it's still worrying me, especially as if it is a respiratory illness then it'll be contageous and I could end up losing all my new mice and my old mice 

The other two does that I brought back in the same carry cage seem absolutely fine! No weird noises, no coughing, they've been eating, drinking and exploring just great. I think they'd been kept in the same tank beforehand too.

Could this just be a reaction to the stressful day she's had? Or an allergy to new foods/enrichment? I'll be keeping an eye on her but I just wanted to see what everyone else thinks in case I've missed something obvious/less obvious that would help or diagnose something else etc. Any replies are greatl appreciated!


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

That noise is bruxxing, which is grinding the teeth together. they do it when they are excited or agitated. If you just got the mousie, you shoud give it a chance to settle in before handling it so much. It's very stressful for it to be transferred and housed in a different location.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

Oh right, well that's a bit of a relief! I know it wasn't on the video but do you think the coughing sound was the same thing?

I've not handled them other than to transfer them from the carry cage to their tank, and only got her out to film her because she was making that noise while in the tank and it worried me, so I'm not in there every 5 mintues cooing over them  (I'm restraining myself :lol: ).


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

I`ve had a look and a listen to your video and the noise does sound consistant with her breathing pattern. She looks bright eyed and healthy otherwise, so give her a few days and see if the noise goes. If it`s still there, I would put her onto baytril for two weeks and dose it on a dry or slightly damp piece of rich tea biscuit three times a day - morning, afternoon and night. Is she to breed from or a pet mouse? Either way, she would benefit from having some baytril. Just don`t dose it in drinking water as this means the other mice have access to it and they don`t require it. It can also prevent mice from drinking the water, so it`s always best to dose Baytril on food.

Long journeys and noise can stress a mouse, so it`s understandable that she`s showing signs of this. I`ve heard a few sneezes from the girls that came to me recently, but they have stopped now and are fine. So noises like this don`t always mean respiratory infections, but if the mouse is prone to stress, she could be more prone to this type of thing anyway. Not all mice are strong in this area.

Let her settle and make sure ventilation is good.


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## laoshu (Sep 16, 2009)

It sounds very much like and R.I to me.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Yeah that's definitely not the tooth grinding of bruxing. Sounds like raspy breathing to me. I'd start them all on baytril personally...better safe than sorry.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

She is from show lines. I bought her from a fantastic guy in Filey who said his stock originaled from Harlequin Stud 

I'm not worried about it now, I do believe it's her grinding her teeth. I only hear the noise now when I open the cage to feed etc and she pokes her head out of the hide and makes that noise. I've put enough food in so I don't need to disturb the cage until at least tomorrow now so they'll have plenty of time to settle.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

The mousie doesn't look sick either; nice bright eyes, sleek coat. If she is coughing maybe she doesn't like bedding you have, or there's something in the environment outside her tank causing an air quality issue.


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

If she`s still making the noise by the end of this week and is just seemingly making the noise while going about her business, it needs Baytril. Thing is, they can go around making these noises on and off and never really seem bothered by it. Some mice sneeze aswell (I`ve never heard a mouse cough to be honest!) These bouts of sneezing or noisy breathing can be brought about by stress, allergy or respiratory issues, which can be caused by any of the aforementioned.

Keep air flow in the room good and make sure your nesting material is paper based. Anything whith a scent or dust will cause a reaction. I found this all too well by using substrates like Carefresh. I only use two paper based items now and those are Bedxcel and PetLife paper bedding. That`s it. Neither give off any odours and the mice seem very, very happy on these. I even tried Aubiose once from a tester bag I got given to me from a forum friend a while ago and although the mice seemed fine on it, I was`nt totally convinced and went back to my Bedxcel. Remember also if mice are kept in tanks, these tend to hold aromas more, so the mice inside won`t have the same ventilation as mice kept in barred cages.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

They're all on plain old sawdust which is what they were on in their tanks with their breeder so tank type and substrate haven't changed drastically. I do think it was just that teeth grinding noise so I'll keep an eye on her and hopefully once she's more comfortable she'll be alright  If it carries on for more than a few days I'll start treating her.

I'll have a look at different beddings though. I've looked before but there's so many and ALL of them are so much more expensive than sawdust, it's rediculous! :roll:


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Aspen bedding is what I use, and I'm a brand name baby, buying only Kaytee Aspen, which is low in dust and is chipped up in pretty consistent size pieces. Is the stuff you use actual sawdust? or shavings like I use?


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

Look for farm/stable supply places in your area. They should stock Bedxcel (cardboard square bedding) in 20kg bales for around £7.50p. It varies between supplier really. Aubiose is another horse bedding to look for. Any of these two would be much more economical for you and safer for your mice. Never use sawdust! Shavings vary in grade, but most will still produce phenols and `piney` aromas. Shavings are best taken out of their bag and aired in plastic bins and rotated outdoors to release any armoma and fine dust. This is best done a few weeks before use if you must use shavings at all. never use shavings straight from the bag. Stick your nose in and you`ll see what I mean....


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm actully allergic to sawdust anyway so I won't be sticking my nose in there! :lol: But I imagine even if I weren't I still wouldn't want to :?

My university is very agricultural based and has a LOT of equine courses so I might see if I can get hold of an equine and ask if they can get hold of some good dust free horse bedding for me


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

recingmouse:

I have no problem with the Kaytee Aspen as far fumes affecting health; I know that happens with pine and cedar. It has a nice clean smell that makes me want to take a nice sniff of it whenever I open a new package. I distrust anything paper based as it can be contaminated with mold which will grow as soon as it gets even a little bit of moisture on/in it. I have bought off-brand aspen and had problems with too much dust and weird odors, which is why I stick to Kaytee Aspen.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Racingmouse knows I swear by Megazorb  its an Equine bedding but they have put the price up lol.


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

Products can differ between the US and the UK though, so the paper based products over here are much better than any wood based products. I`m not sure what Aspen is? I`m guessing it`s a wood based shavings of some kind?

Over here, small animal keepers be it mice, hamsters or gerbils now tend to choose their substrates from the stable/horse supply places. Mainly because horses can suffer from respiratory issues aswell, so these products are absorbent and dust extracted. Geordie uses megazorb for example. This is actually manufactured for horses and farm animals, as is the substrate I use, Bedxcel. hyshqa being in Yorkshire (UK) should be able to source either Bedxcel, Megazorb or Aubiose as these are all supplied as horse beddings!


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Aspen is a different type of wood from pine and cedar...it is a hardwood without the oils that pine and cedar (softwoods) have. Pine shavings that have been kiln dried/treated are also safe, as the oils are extracted by the process...as well as pelleted woods. I personally use pelleted pine that is sold as horse bedding. Aspen shavings are also sold as horse beddings. I would use pelleted paper, but it is at least twice the price of the pelleted horse bedding.


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Aspen(poplar) is a lovely tree in the autumn ovate shaped leaves some species grow from suckers and grow large colonies .The park where I first started my working life as a park keeper lol there was 26 Lombardi poplars 50ft high the wood is very sought after as they grow very streight and tall and easy to propogate from .So I would imagine the small animal bedding is the bi product from the industry.It looks very attractive in the cages or tanks.


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks for explaining Aspen guys. It`s not something I see too often. The shavings I used to use (for my gerbils not the mice!) were Spruce based and came from Germany. They are called Chipsi-Classic shavings. I`m not too clued up on my `woods`, but Spruce is said to be one of the safer woods, but quite honestly, I really don`t know if that`s true or not. My gerbils loved Chipsi-Classic, but if I started over again, I would definately go with a mix or Megazorb and Aubiose or just one of the two for gerbils with hay mixed in.

I can honestly say that Bedxcel (one of the cardboard square substrates) is a wonderful litter and the mice love nothing more than to carry the little squares around, build barriers around their doorways and post them through the cage bars! :lol:


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

Aspen caused Psoarasis on My Black Gerbils nose I used sterile saline soloution it soon cleared it up but Gerbils are prone to psoriasis any way in captivity.Aspen its no good for Gerbils its too rough and it caused the eyes to close on both my mamate mice they were running around blind bless them, so that is why I dont use it . Dry peat or Megazorb is ideal for Gerbils so they can dig bury those plastic tunnels they love those.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

Psoriasis isn't "caused" by external sources.....I know b/c I have it  Psoriasis is autoimmune issue. They could have another skin issue related to it...but **shrug** My soft furs and gerbils (along with everyone else) are kept on pine pellets and no on has any skin or respiratory issues.


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## bethmccallister (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm anxiously awaiting the distribution of rice hull bedding. I currently use Aspen but I've been doing some research and rice hull bedding seems to be much better and I would love to give it a try...currently the distribution center will not ship to Ohio though...does anyone in the UK use something like this?

http://www.ricehullstallbedding.com/


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I'd be a bit concerned by the silica content...I don't know if it could produce long term health effects, especially if they digest any of it. It also sounds like it is non-absorbant (water resistant???) and as such may not have very good odor control??.... **shrug**


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

Well things got a bit....weird earlier :? Not in a good way.

I hadn't heard a peep out of her since yesterday so when I spotted her having a sniff around her food bowl I decided to get her out to have a quick hold. She sounded fine, she made that noise again but not much and only briefly. Then just as I'm about to put her back after about a minute she passed a weird blobby pale pink mucusy...thing...from her vagina. What on earth was that?? I've never seen it before :shock: There were two of these little blobs stuck together, they were only about the size of her poos, no blood at all but covered in a lot of mucus. Not the slightest clue what it was! :|


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Curious; maybe she was impregnated while at the store and then aborted spontanously. Again, if she doesn't look or act sick, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Are you sure it was a vagina discharge and not a slimy turd? Stressed out meeces often poot out slimy poops that are yellowish or cloudy clear as the body pushes out stuff that hasn't been completely processed by the digestive system.


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## hyshqa (Feb 12, 2011)

I did consider the idea that it was her aborting, but there was no blood and the lumps were very pale pink (also from the impression the breeder gave me when I collected them, I'd trust him to have split the genders correctly and appropriately). I had a poke at it to see if I could figure out what it was and it was mushy. It was definately expelled from her vagina, I saw it just as she'd dropped it and when I picked her tail up it was very open and took a few seconds to close again. But she does seem fine in herself still, just very timid. I'll leave her to it again and see how she gets on.

I've got to say other than the buck I got, who has been out fairly regularly exploring his tank and seems pretty happy to come out for cuddles today, these show type mice seem considerably more timid and nervous than my pet lines, is that expected? My pet lines were never handled before I got them but were still out and about around their cage regularly from the start. With these new mice I've seen the big agouti out once, the black out about 2-3 times and I've not seen even a second of the little agouti mouse, they spend all their time in the hide. Food is going down though so they must be coming out at night :lol:


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

In my experience show mousies are pretty passive.


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

From the two `show` mice I`ve had (have) yes, I agree with the fact that they are much more aloof and edgy. The girl I have just now who lives with my eldery pet shop female is very edgy and runs the minute I go near the cage! She has taken a few treats from my hand, but only if she happens to be in the mood. My girls are in a large, tall barred cage with small doors though, so maybe if I had better access, I could handle them much more than I do, but I only lift the whole top off the cage when it`s cleaning time, so this limits my interactions with them a lot. I think that can make a difference if the mice are handled more. My girls are happy just to do their own thing and know that I`m there changing water bottles and spot-cleaning! :roll:


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

hyshqa said:


> She is from show lines. I bought her from a fantastic guy in Filey who said his stock originaled from Harlequin Stud


Harlequin is better known for producing pet quality mice for selling purposes and is not a club member.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

racingmouse said:


> From the two `show` mice I`ve had (have) yes, I agree with the fact that they are much more aloof and edgy. ! :roll:


no doubt originated from another byb breeder who adds the word showline to make their mice more profitable/desirable.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

> From the two `show` mice I`ve had (have) yes, I agree with the fact that they are much more aloof and edgy.


I don't think experience of two mice is really enough to make that kind of sweeping statement :roll: My own mice are lovely creatures, very happy to be held and petted - err, I mean _examined_, ahem - and they always come running to the front of the cage when I'm in the room. 

Sarah xxx


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## geordiesmice (Oct 26, 2010)

All my mice are bred from show mice and are very placid and when I come into the room they come to the front of the tanks and stand up for me to get them out and hold them.There all very gentle there was only one mouse that I have a Doe that bit me but she was very protective of her young she has settled down now though  .


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

It`s true to say that larger show mice should be more laid back, especially if they are handled a lot while young. It`s probably due to the fact that my girls are in a large barred cage and it`s not so easy to access unless cleaning them out, so this can be a factor in having mice that prefer their own space than being handled all the time. But I don`t want to keep my mice in meshed lidded boxes where it would be easier for me, but not so nice for them. The compromise would be easy to get at mice, but less for the mice to do in terms of space and enrichment, which a larger cage provides.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

our mice don't need that sort of enrichment,they get to do what mice do naturally ,breed and raise babies in terms of fulfillment it's second to nothing.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

Space can actually make mice more aggitated and nervous, you think your doing them a favour when you really not.

K xx


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

I have to agree with that WillowDragon. I do find that puting mice into larger cages does make them more skittish. Right now, I have two girls in a large barred cage and one female in a smaller barred cage. The female in the smaller barred cage is more docile anyway, but her cage is easier to handle than the large one. The two girls in the large cage are different ages and of different origins. One is 18 months old and a pet shop type. The other is seven months old and a larger show type and she is the one who acts like a loon! Although bless her, she is starting to come over for treats now so I`m sure it`s the large cage that`s making her behave the way she does.

I`d love to keep them all in a simpler set up more for my benefit, but as I said above, I don`t want to deprive them of that space they have since they do love it.

Sarah - yes, mice that are breeding are probably more interested in their babies anyway! So a very different scenario.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

WillowDragon said:


> Space can actually make mice more aggitated and nervous, you think your doing them a favour when you really not.
> 
> K xx


I completely agree with this.


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## Stina (Sep 24, 2010)

I agree as well....every time I've put mice into larger cages they become MUCH more skittish! A larger space in their minds means more area they have to defend and its more likely a predator will intrude. I find them to be much more comfortable in a relatively small space where they can feel safe!


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

Interesting. I will hopefully be introducing my two middle-aged females once my oldie is no longer around and I will definately be keeping them in the smaller cage. At least for a few weeks and then I will decide whether they actually need the bigger cage. I have a cut-down version of my larger cage, so chances are, I will use this rather than my biggest cage for ease of use and so the two girls have space but not too much!

See, I`m used to being part of a community who shun small caging for pet mice, so it`s difficult for me to keep mice in anything smaller than a rat cage! But that`s probably just learned behaviour from being part of another community who push larger caging and don`t talk breeding, so you can see where the difference in opinions comes from. I do need to adjust things though because I also have neck pain problems so this larger, taller cage is getting a bit much for me to deal with unless I`m cleaning it out. I could probably get the girls out more if my cage was`nt so big and awkward to access.


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## WillowDragon (Jan 7, 2009)

I can understand where these pet keeping people come from, it seems like a nice thing to do, but they are putting there own feelings onto the mice and humanising them.

If you need to do that, think of mice as agraphobic, wide open spaces are a threat, they feel much more secure in a small cage with lots of nesting material.


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## racingmouse (Jan 12, 2011)

I can see that`s an option now having thought about things. The girls love the running room though so it`s me who feels the guilt of keeping them in a smaller environment! When I had my original four males, they all stayed in a Pennine rat starter cage which is 22 x 11 x 18" inches high with an additional full shelf. Too small you might say for four mice, but I had friendlier mice back then! :roll:

Once I only have the two girls, I will definately look at setting up my cut-down cage as a compromise rather than the taller one they are in at the moment.


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