# Amtma mousey Breeding Project [Large Images]



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Hi Everyone!
My name is Kan. My goal as a novice breeder is to improve the physical qualities of my Seal Point Siamese mice and strive for show quality. I use a basic strategy of vigilant line-breeding between Self Black and Seal Point Siamese. I began this strain as my first breeding project on December 17, 2014, in which I bred my founding pair, a Broken-marked Brindle buck and Blue Rex doe (Image 1 & 2).
Obviously, I started with pet shop mice that I acquired from a local store. Please understand that these mice are not nearly show quality or even close. After my 3rd generation, I out-cross my strain to a Seal Point Siamese buck (Image 3).

I am approximately on my 7th generation and very pleased with my current results. My primary focus is to improve proper type, specifically ears, body, and head shape. Mean while, gradually developing shading and coloring within the Seal Point Siamese mice. My immediate objective is to improve the darkening of feet within my Seal Point Siamese, in which I am line breeding to an alternative doe outside my strain (Image 4 & 5). After proper quality of coloring and shading has been established, I will begin focusing on size and other minor improvements, such as my clearly lacking tails.

I have included images of my current mice. All mice shown have been owned or bred by me. Enjoy!

Image 1: Blue Rex doe








Image 2: Broken-marked Brindle buck








Image 3: Siamese Outcross buck








Image 4: Siamese doe with improved points








Image 5: Siamese doe with improved points


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Image 6: Tank of does








Image 7: Tank of males








Image 8: Current nursing does








Image 9: Current breeding does








Image 10: Current breeding does


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Image 11: Doe with good type








Image 12: Current breeding 1 buck 2 does








Image 13: Current breeding 1 buck 5 does


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Image 14: Future breeding does








Image 15: Future breeding does








Image 16: Current pups 1 buck 2 does


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update May 22, 2016:

I expanded the breeding quantity within the most recent generation (generation 4). I have implemented 3 breeding groups, as listed below. I will begin the development of 3 subgroups within my strain to help battle immunodeficiency and improve genetic diversity.
aa ch/ch = Siamese
aa C/ch = Black carrying Siamese
aa C/* = Black, possibly carrying Siamese
aa C/C = Homozygous Black

*Generation 4 Breeding groups:*

Murphy (aa ch/ch)- Breeding to 4 (aa C/*) does

Midnight (aa C/C)- Breeding to 2 (aa ch/ch) does

Boot (aa C/*)- Breeding to 2 (aa C/*)

Results: Midnight's litter will result in 100% Black carrying Siamese, thus his children will become the founding individuals of Strain A2. The pups from both Murphy and Boot, the Blacks will become Strain B1, and the Siamese will become Strain A1. From here forward, the subgroups as stated below will be implemented.

Future Breeding Plan for Generation 5:
As stated before, my Siamese strain is diminished of color and shading, specifically white feet. In result, I have bred my overall darkest buck, Midnight (aa C/C), to my best shaded Siamese doe (aa ch/ch). This breeding combination will result in 100% Black carrying Siamese mice (aa C/ch). I will select the best buck of this litter and breed to my current 7 Siamese virgin does, who are the youngest generation of Generation 4. Hopefully, this will reestablish a proper quality of mice, in which I will continue developing my subgroups from these 7 litters.

*Subgroups:*

Subgroup A1
Priority:
-Seal Point Siamese
-Improved Siamese Shading
Genotype Population:
-ch/ch

Subgroup A2
Priority:
-Black Carrying Siamese
-Best Type
Genotype Population:
-C/ch

Subroup B1
Priority:
-Self Black
-Darkest Black Color
Genotype Population:
-C/C
-C/ch

*Long Term Breeding Cycle:*
b = Buck
d = Doe

A1b + A2d = A1 & A2 (General improvement) - Every Generation
Genotype Results:
-C/ch - 50%
-ch/ch - 50%
A1: Best Siamese buck
A2: Black does with best type

A2b + B1d = B1 (Diversity for B1) - Every 4 Generations
Genotype Results:
-C/C - 50%
-C/ch - 50%
A2: Best Black type buck
B1: All current Black does

B1b + A1d = A2 (Darkening improvement) - Dependent on A1
Genotype Results:
-C/ch - 100%
B1: Darkest Black buck
A1: Siamese does require point and shading impovements.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update May 25, 2016:

Midnight and Doe








Midnight


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Murphy








Murphy


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update July 5, 2016:

Since my last update, multiple litters have been born, approximately 150 pups in total.
Murphy the mouse posted above did not develop as I hoped, in result he was replaced by "Murphy New", likely to be his brother or cousin. I am currently focused on improving the shading of and removing white feet among my mice, in which I will then return back to developing type.

Litters are listed in chronological order:
A Black and Siamese doe, father unknown due to accidental breeding. - Babies are grown up
2 Black does bred with Murphy New- Babies are grown up
3 Siamese does bred with Midnight- Babies will be weaned soon
5 Black does bred with Murphy New- Babies will be weaned soon
6 Siamese does bred with Midnight- Babies are approximately 1 week old

Currently, no culling has been needed and no causalities have occurred among the does or babies. Although, the accidental litters are appearing a bit runty. They will not be used within my project. I will be wrapping up the summer breeding and begin decreasing my numbers in preparation of the fall and winter months.

Tomorrow will be the first wave of selecting the keepers and non-keepers. Midnight has been resigned from breeding. He will be rehoused on Thursday along with several of his sons. I will post pictures soon.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update July 9, 2016:

Another accidental litter...









A bunch of black bucks that I will be choosing from soon









Three Siamese females #1









Three Siamese Females #2









The future founding buck of my Siberian Generations: Amaranthaus, meaning 'unfading' in Latin


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Black doe doing her thing









Siamese and black young does









Different siamese young doe









Litter #1 from Midnight and Siamese does









Litter #2 from Midnight and Siamese does


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

My nursing queens :gwavebw


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update August 13, 2016:

The majority of mice have been selected, being the last litter will be selected next week. Resulting in the following stock population:

-4 previous Siamese does
-1 Black doe, serves as an excellent nanny and kind personality
-1 Siamese doe, my best doe back a few generations. I want to see how she ages, giving me an understanding of my current line.
-Approximately 30 virgin does, majority being Black carrying Siamese
-9 virgin bucks, 4 Black carrying Siamese & 5 Siamese

Here are a few photos of the new generation:

Black doe eating a piece of cooked meat









Various does









Siamese does









*Mycoplasma discovered within stock.*
A young Siamese buck has contracted a severe case of mycoplasma. It is deemed to be very contagious, specifically this strain. I have isolated the poor fellow in his own container. I will evaluate for further action. His fur also seems greasy because I treated him with olive oil, in fear of him contracting lice too as I placed him in a new environment/aspen shaving.

No other mice seem to have contracted the disease. I have also noticed from personal experience that when Siamese mice become ill or contract severe mycoplasma, often their coats begin to molt into a more dark and rugged shading.

Picture of Sick Buck


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update August 18, 2016:

*More Mycoplasma*
I have discovered that my latest litter of mice have contracted the Mycoplasma disease. I have contained and isolated both the original infected male and young mice. My main stock of bucks and does have been relocated to a temporary safety room, in which they are 2 levels away from the infected mice. Designated wheels and bottles have been given to the mice and I always handle the healthy mice before the infected mice.

I have recently taken pictures of the majority of my virgin bucks and does. Due to the extensive amount of female mice (approximately 40 in total), I was unable to take individual pictures of the does. I have also transferred my previous breeding does into their separate tank as it is becoming difficult to distinguish them from their female offspring.

In the fall and early winter months, I do not breed due to my busy personal schedule. I will most likely return to breeding these mice in November, which they will be approximately 5 months of age. By January, I will be utilizing all my mice and expecting mass amounts of litters again by late February or early April.

The following posts will be individually dedicated to a virgin buck, 6 in total.

My young females tank! The mice you see multiply by three, the rest are hiding under the aspen bedding. There's about 40 in total.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

*Virgin Buck #1: Snicker*

What this young Seal Point Siamese buck lacks in weight of only 29 grams, he makes up with excellent ears, which I judge as the best among all his relatives.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

*Virgin Buck #2: Shark*

As my personal favorite Seal Point Siamese buck, weighing in at 32 grams and having good type and finishing second best in ears. He is a favorable candidate for my next Siamese stud.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

*Virgin Buck #3: Aaron the Average*

A gentle Siamese buck indeed, what he has in great personality, he takes the back seat when it comes to looks. Luckily, his owner is too much of a nancy to cut his time short. He lives another day with his brothers and cousins!

*I apologize for the poor quality of the first three pictures. Got to love windows Paint...


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

*Virgin Buck #4: Joe*

Serving as the Alpha male in the young buck group, he weighs in at 34 grams. But even a little size will not be an acceptable substitute for his lacking ears and type.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

*Virgin Buck #5: Weasel the Wheezer*

Mr. Sick, it seems this Black buck is coming down with a cold. Weighing in at 31 grams with acceptable type, he better lose the sniffles and start looking at his brother Jimmy for advice.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

*Virgin Buck #6: Jimmy*

Taking the name after my friend's co-worker, this mouse definitely puts in a lot of work. Working with a weight of 35 grams and fabulous type and ears, it looks like he's got the Black stud title on lockdown.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

*Virgin Buck Group Pictures*










































*Virgin Buck Information*
So a little background about these guys, the majority of them are either brothers or cousins. I know for sure though that Weasel and Jimmy are brothers. Regarding the housing, I actually do keep all my virgin bucks together. I have not had any serious issues for the last 3 generations, although every now and then of course there is that one aggressive male. But I should state that the beginning generations of my line I did not house my males together, it was not until about the 7th generation I started attempting this tactic. Also once a buck comes in contact with a doe, just the scent even, I do not house him with other bucks any longer.

At the moment, I have about 11 virgin bucks housed together, 6 being the ones depicted above. I have noticed that the more bucks within a given tank, the less likely for issues to arise. The daily precautions of keeping them together consists of always having two water bottles and food dishes on opposite sides of the tank. Three large wheels are only available during the day and no toys are placed in permanently. The regular behavior of the bucks is that they sleep together, but just after they become active (normally around 10PM), there will be a brief period of smelling each other. All the mice will rush around smelling each others' genitalia but rarely is there ever squeaking or fighting. When I increase the amounts of bucks in the tank, I always introduce more than one buck and normally right after they have been weaned. Immediately after arrival, the new comers will be sniffed and thereafter a somewhat mass humping session will occur, in which all the bucks within the tanks will begin trying to hump each other, literally all the bucks, not just the alpha. They will ejaculate on each others' genitalia and then become calm for a few minutes before humping another victim. This activity resembles somewhat of a tag game, and surprisingly a lot of the males being humped will just stand there. After about an hour, this activity will subdue and they are back to normal.

Hope you enjoyed the photos and will continue posting periodical updates!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update August 23, 2016:

*Final Selection*
The final selection of my mice will occur on August 25, 2016. I will be transferring 5 of my retired black does, a litter of blues, a mix of young Blacks and Siamese, and 3 bucks.

*Winter Tank Set-Up*
Virgin Buck Tank
- 6 Bucks
Virgin Doe Tank
- Approximately 30 young does, most being Black carrying Siamese
Doe Tank
- 4 Siamese does
- 1 Black doe
- 1 Himilayan doe
Medic Tank
- Currently contains 5 mice that are infected with a serious case of Mycoplasma
Long-Hair Tank
- 1 Albino
- 3 Blues that are all blinded in the left eye

*Current Bucks*
I have decided to keep the following bucks:
Shark- Siamese
Snicker- Siamese
Aaron- Siamese
Jimmy- Black
Weasel- Black
Bean- Black


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

*Breeding Plan for 2017*

*Strains:
*
Strain A1
Priority:
Seal Point Siamese
Size/Weight
Offspring Genotype:
ch/ch

Strain A2
Priority:
Black Carrying Siamese/Seal Point Siamese
Improve Siamese Shading
Offspring Genotype:
ch/ch
C/ch

Strain B1
Priority:
Self Black/Black Carrying Siamese
Size/Weight
Offspring Genotype:
C/C
C/ch

Strain B2
Priority:
Self Black/Black Carrying Siamese
Color
Offspring Genotype:
C/C
C/ch

*Breeding Combination:*

A1 Buck + A1 Doe = A1, Increase size

B1 Buck + B1 Doe = B1, Increase size

B2 Buck + B2 Doe = B2, Improve Color

A2 Buck + A2 Doe = A2, Improve Shading

B1 Buck + B2 Doe = B2, Inner-Mix

B2 Buck + B1 Doe = B2, Inner-Mix

A1 Buck + A2 Doe = A2, Inner-Mix

A2 Buck + A1 Doe = A2, Inner-Mix

A1 Buck + B2 Doe = A1, Cross-Over

A2 Buck + B1 Doe = A1, Cross-Over

B1 Buck + A2 Doe = A1, Cross-Over

B2 Buck + A1 Doe = A1, Cross-Over


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update November 26, 2016:

I have successfully contained and isolated the respiratory infection outbreak. I believe that the majority of my does have acquired an immunity to such disease while my bucks have not due to their significant decreased interaction with other mice. The majority of time, my bucks contract RI/illness a few days after being housed with females for mating. Luckily, they impregnate my does before falling ill. Hopefully, the offspring will inherit their mother's immune system and antibodies.

I did have a brief infection of lice, which likely originated from their aspen bedding. Other than this, all the mice are doing well. I have and plan to increase my holding capacity. Additionally, I will be riding the Myco disease out, basically breed out the disease within my lines.

Below is a few pictures of a pretty Siamese piebald doe, a few Siamese does, and my two upcoming roan studs. Sadly, I was/am too lazy to take photos of my blacks, remaining Siamese, and roan does. Sorry, another time.

Current approximate population:
50 Siamese does
30 Black does
20 Roan does

3 Siamese studs
1 Black stud
2 Roan studs
50 bucks of Siamese and Black


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)




----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)




----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Upcoming Roan Studs:


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

absolute beauties.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

SarahC said:


> absolute beauties.


Thanks, hopefully more to come. :mrgreen:


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update December 24, 2016:

Happy Holidays!

My mice are doing well. The Mycoplasma outbreak has completely subdued with presently no current infections. I have noticed that mice who are introduced to the disease at a young age (pinkies) are more likely to grow an immunity as they mature. Since my last update, I have tripled my stock holding capacity as I plan to expand my Black line and develop my Roan line.

*Future Plans:*
For the next few generations, I will not be breeding Black to Siamese any longer. I want to improve each line separately, within their own phenotype. After a few generations, I will decide which one created better results.

Additionally, I am going to begin establishing my Roan line. I personally dislike the Merle coat variation (black spots with Roan), thus I immediately cull them. I am going to focus upon Roan and attempt to establish a Roan pure strain that does not produce Merle. Although as far as I am aware, it has been stated that the results of Roan and Merle are primarily random.
In regards to my Roan gene:
-It is not homozygous lethal
-Merle is slightly more dominant than Roan
-Roan X Roan results in significantly less Merle
-The shading of the Roan coat is often slightly determined by the color of the parents
-Average litter size is 11 or 12
My favorite combination is light Roan carrying Siamese. As the points from the Siamese causes slight darkening of the Roan pattern of the nose which gives the mouse more shading and depth.

*Present Status:*
I somewhat miscalculated my mouse pregnancies for this session. I currently have about 18 litters, with 7 mice per litter. 126 pups in total.
This most recent breeding session was only for my Blacks and Roans. I have 3 litters dedicated specifically for Roan. The next breeding sessions, which will be in early January, will be for my Siamese mice.

Within my Roan mice, I have also noticed a pattern where some lighter Roans will have a white spot on the top of their head. It seems it is a recessive allele dependent on homozygous Roan. It does not disperse or change form significantly as the mouse matures. I will most likely choose to pursue this physical trait of a white head spot as I personally find it appealing and unique.

I have already chosen my future studs for breeding session in January: 1 Siamese, 2 Blacks, 2 Roans. I will have pictures in my next post.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update February 20, 2017:

My recent generation has produced offspring (specifically two Siamese bucks) with significantly improved ears and good type. I strive to implement their genes throughout my lines in the next breeding session, then return focus upon my previous agendas. My next breeding session will be conducted in early March, and will include primarily of the Black and Roan lines.

Roan:
I will be breeding all my Roan does to the Roan stud named 'Prince', the white roan with a headspot pictured above. I want to develop my Roans to solid white-ticked coats with white headspots. Once achieving this goal, I will shift to type and size.

Black:
My population of Blacks have decreased in the last generations due to lacking results. I currently do not have a Black stud, as no good quality Black male was produced. In the next breeding session, I will be mating my 5 month old Black does to my best Siamese buck. I will evaluate the results and decide from there for future direction of my Black line.

Siamese:
I have multiple pregnant and birthing does. My Siamese is gradually improving. I was not fully satisfied with my most recently bred stud as he lacked color. He has since been retired and replaced by the two upcoming Siamese bucks as stated above. The next Siamese breeding session will not occur until April - May.

Below are pictures of my does, some are pregnant. Sorry, I did not have time to take pictures of my bucks or individual photos.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)




----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Pictures of 'Prince', a white Roan buck that currently serves as my primary Roan stud.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update March 19, 2017:

The breeding project has been uneventful since my last update. The pups continue to mature, in preparation for the next breeding cycle.

Current population is approximately:
200 Siamese
50 Roan
30 Black


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update April 11, 2017:

*Stock Selection:*
Since my last update, I have reduced my current stock population to approximately:
12 Roan Does
1 Roan Buck "Prince"
1 PEW

20 Black Does
5 Black Bucks

30 Siamese Does
4 Siamese Bucks

I will continue to breed. The reduction of my stock was solely to increase selection quality as I try to consolidate the gene pool (leaning the fat). Additionally, I plan to do some major breeding this spring and summer, so I need the space.

*Buck Offspring:*
My recent bucks from the last generation for Siamese and Black show improved ears and type, which I am focusing on right now. I have selected the stud for each variation. I am temporarily disregarding shade/points and color. Once, I have bred in a proper type and ears in my gene pool, I will begin focusing on size and color.

I have noticed that mice are born with muscular or non-muscular ears. What I mean by this, is that some mice can flex their ears forward more than others. Overall, this creates a better appearance to the mouse, which most show-quality mice exhibit. Although, flex ears does not affiliate with large ears. Some mice can have large ears, but can not move them forward, rather they remain close to their skull. I noticed this trait of 'flex ears' at 4-6 weeks of age in my mice. I have begun to remove all mice from my breeding program that do not exhibit that physical characteristic.

*Roan Experimentation:*
I have put 'Prince' to the side. For my next breeding cycle, I have incorporated a PEW buck to breed with my Roan and Merle does. I am curious to see the results. I am hoping it may produce lighter/white Roans. Additionally, the PEW buck has larger ears than my white Roan stud.

*Pet Store Closed-Down:*
The pet store that I acquired my original stock from in 2014 recently closed down. In result, I do not have access to any fancy mice except for Petco and Petsmart. I never had the intention to use an out cross from a pet store, but the closure of the pet store did have an impact on me because it was my origin of becoming attached to mice and studying the variations (this pet store had a large variety of coats, although none show quality). Just seems like a realization of time passing and departure of a memorable location.


----------



## KingoftheWindlover (Apr 10, 2017)

I've got to say, you've made quite an improvement on your animals from where you started to where you are now! I really enjoy looking at the pictures and reading what you did to get there. Much luck!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update May 7, 2017:

I have continued to reduce my fancy mice population. I am restarting my strains (Seal Point Siamese, Self Black, Roan/Merle) with a minimal selection of my best quality mice. Thereafter, I will slowly build up to my previous numbers.

In the last dozen generations, I would keep/breed the top 30% of my stock. This generation, I have limited to keeping/breeding the top 5% of my stock. I refer this as a "stock renewal".

*Stock Renewal:*
I have decided to distribute focus between individual breeding groups. I will improve type among three Black does, while maintaining homozygous Black. Thereafter, hopefully cross breeding to my well-colored Black doe or her offspring.

I have decided to keep three of my previous best Siamese does (sisters) from two generations ago. They are listed as 'general'. They do not excel in any specific physical characteristic but their overall phenotype is viable for my breeding program. Additionally, they are very tamed/docile and almost 2 years old, so they will become pets after they are retired from breeding.

I have kept three of my best-shaded Siamese does and one well-typed Siamese doe, who is also the youngest at two months of age.

Finally, I have my Merle/Roan line. I personally dislike the Merle coat.
I will designate one sub-line strictly for breeding only Roan coats. This will originate from my three remaining Roan does. I will continue to breed my main line, which can be Merle or Roan, eventually cross-breeding mice from the Roan-only sub-line.

*Total Adult Stock Population: 15 Adult Fancy Mice*
1 Black Doe (Color)
3 Black Does (Type)

1 Siamese Doe (Type)
3 Siamese Does (Color)
3 Siamese Does (General)

1 Merle Doe (Type)
3 Roan Does (Color)


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update May 27, 2017:

My new tank set up! It is safe, high surface area, sturdy, aesthetically appealing...










I am only kidding. This was only a temporary stacking while I cleaned their tanks and the rodent room.

The stock renewal is going well and the majority being completed. I only have 2 more litters, 4 bucks, and a few does that I am waiting to mature for removal transfer.

The "one well-typed Siamese doe, who is also the youngest at two months of age" has matured very well. Her ear placement/size and type is phenomenal. She had an accidental litter of five females a few weeks ago. I am not sure how she became pregnant or who the father is- although he was Siamese, as all the offspring are Seal Point Siamese. It is upsetting that she did not have any boys... I would like a new Siamese stud. Regardless, I will be breeding the majority of her daughters- combining them with the recent-born offspring of my other Siamese does.

I have three Roans, believed to be sisters. One of the Roans has a better ear placement and lighter color, which I prefer. But she seems not as 'active' and a bit laid back. I like to breed mice that are constantly on the wheel, fast, aggressive, and overall increased physical motor skills. The third Siamese has a black spot on her face, but all other physical attributes are viable. I'll likely breed all three to my Siamese stud soon.

I also have a Merle doe with good ears. I dislike the Merle coat, but I am making an exception because she has optimal ears and type. I am not going to breed her until I acquire a better stud.

My Blacks just had their litters but I am hoping to acquire a new Black stud too. Hopefully...

In my recent litters that I still have, I noticed a reappearance of the white head-spot. The hoppers that have the head-spot, all have a similar grey-smudged like color. I assume it is some form of Roan. I will have to wait until they have their final molt. But I do plan to revive my head-spot strain, dedicating one line to breeding only white head-spots. We will see later in time.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update June 29, 2017:

The mice are doing well. I do not have any litters at the moment. I am waiting for my young male mice (approximately 24) to mature, and to select the studs. I have seen a noticeable ear and type improvement within the last generation.

My last White Roan buck died pre-maturely two weeks ago. I was unable to breed 'Prince', as I discovered that one of his ears was not equally placed. I am not sure what the necessary genotype is to create white Roan. Breeding BEW/Himilayan to a Roan does not create White Roan. So I assume it is some form of recessive gene within the Roan trait.

I currently have 3 Roan bucks, and 4 Seal Point Siamese bucks that are breeding quality. In addition, a blue mouse appeared in my last generation, which has never occurred before. He originated from my Roan line. He is a solid grey/blue color all around, no ticks or underbelly coloring. I may try to breed him to a Roan female and speculate the results.

I am still undecided whether I should discontinue my black line or not. Their coloring is horrible and they are no longer needed as out-crosses since I have switched to Siamese X Siamese breeding. I will likely merge them into my Roan line to beef up the size and type.

Pictures of upcoming Seal Point Siamese bucks:


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Pictures of upcoming Merle and Roan bucks:


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Pictures of Assorted Seal Point Siamese:


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Pictures of Young Mice:


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Pictures of Roan Mice:

I have provided pictures of both White/light, and Black/dark Roan. These are pictures of White Roans, notice the increased place of white hairs, very light blue/grey coloring, the coat is overall much more ticked and does not have any solid point locations- almost resembling a variegated coat. The white fox underbelly for a White Roan is much less noticeable than a Black Roan, as seen below.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Below are pictures of comparison between White and Black Roans.

The first picture is of Prince (White Roan) and his brother (Black Roan).










The next two pictures are of two juvenile Roan mice. You can see that within the first few molts, the coat differences appear. White Roans are also slightly more prone to smaller size than Black Roans.


















Finally, these two pictures are of adult female Roans.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Here are a few more pictures of sibling White Roans. These pictures were taken a few months ago with an actual camera, thus the quality is much better. I love the metallic effect and shine the Roans have. No pictures I posted have been modified/edited, other than picture dimensions.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update July 21, 2017:

My mice are doing very well. I currently have 3 Seal Point Siamese bucks and 1 Roan buck. They are all very well developed to be used for my next studs in the fall.

I am currently breeding my Merle stud to my last two Black does. I have completely merged my Black lines into my Siamese and Roan lines.

After research, I have decided to abandon the pursuit of head-spots for my Roan line. I now view such physical trait as a fault within the Roan variety.

*White Tail-tip:*
I have not seen a white tail-tip for over 12 litters. I believe I have relatively removed the faulty gene from my population. Average litter size remains at 7-11.
I did acquire 2 runts and 1 mentally autistic mouse during these litters.

*Genetic Observation:*
I have realized that there is often some form of genetic delay between genotype and phenotype. When breeding two individuals for a specific trait, the gene will not appear within the first generation offspring, but often the second generation thereafter.

This is confusing because in assumption that the gene is recessive, and is present between both parents. The gene is homozygous, thus the offspring should exhibit it. I realize that such genetic ideology is oversimplified and that many alleles must be factored within such equation. I am not sure how to go about such finding. But I now remain aware that often, the phenotypical result of focused pairings is not present until the 2nd or 3rd generation within the same strain.

*Current Approximate Population:*
5 virgin Siamese does
3 virgin Roan doe
3 pregnant Roan does
3 pregnant Black does
3 nursing Siamese does

1 Siamese stud
1 Merle stud
3 Siamese bucks
1 Roan buck

Siamese does are pictured on Page 4. Roan does are pictured above.

*Long-term Plan:*
Significant improvement of ears has been established within my population. I hope to have proper ears genetically solidified within the next three generations. During the months of October to December, I am going to temporarily delay my breeding sessions. I want to allow my mice to fully mature to analyze the current status of their development.

In January, I will return to mass breeding until June. During these mass breeding sessions, I will expand my Siamese and Roan lines for size and color.

My Siamese line has an approximate two year head start compared to my Roans in comparison to overall size and type. I will incorporate occasional cross-overs but I strive to maintain the lines distinctly separate. I hope to have color and size solidified and established by June, 2019. Thereafter, I will focus upon tail lengths and tail sets as the final improvement of my lines. I hope to achieve this task in the year 2020 and begin showing in the Fancy Mouse Breeders' Association.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update August 20, 2017:

Siamese Line:
In my last stud decision, I chose a buck, named "Everest", that had distinct erect ears and ear placement but lacked in color. I really want to establish proper erect ears in my gene pool before improving anything else. I am mating "Everest" to 2 Siamese does (pictured below) and 1 Roan doe.

I have 2 additional Siamese does serving as nannies. In a month, I will mate these 2 Siamese does either to "Everest" or his best son.

Roan Line:
I have bred my best Roan, named "Roman", to 4 Siamese does- good type, minimal ears, bad color. The offspring of this generation will serve as my foundation for my upcoming Roan line.
Two of the does have already had their litters. I discovered 4 partially eaten corpses of pinkies in the tank, which is concerning because milk was present in the stomach remains. I will keep monitor but maintain my current colony breeding arrangement.

After weaning their young, three of these four Siamese does will be transferred back to my Siamese line and bred with my current Siamese stud, named "Everest".

Recently, I have also taken an interest in the lethal A^y, specifically Red coat. I personally dislike culling but understand its utilization, and appreciate the color of Red mice. I hope to acquire and begin breeding the variation when the opportunity arises.


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

You have some lovely mice! Everything looks best in satin!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Thank you. :mrgreen:


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update October 3, 2017:

My mice are doing well. I was successful in expanding my Roan/Merle line without negative health developments. However, type and size was relatively lost in the process. I will continue to breed Seal Point Siamese and Roan/Merle.

I acquired an outcross buck from a nearby breeder to improve size and type. The genotype of the buck is piebald, chinchilla, and black- which resulting coat variation I seemed to have temporarily forgotten. He definitely is not an optimal outcross in regards to color, but he has significantly better ears, size, and tail. I am breeding him to my Siamese does, groups of 4. Thereafter, I will work back towards my preferred genotypes of Siamese and Roan/Merle. In addition, I plan to acquire new Dove breeding stock from maintained English mouse lines in early 2018.

I will continue to post updates but can no longer post pictures on this forum. I no longer have the available time to edit and crop the images. I will be posting all my images on https://lakemousery.wixsite.com/home

Current adult stock population (approximate):
-30 Roan does
-10 Roan bucks

-8 Siamese does
-1 Siamese buck

-4 Black does
-1 Black buck


----------



## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

You don't need to crop/edit the photos, you can just use a free hosting site like

https://postimages.org/

select the size you want, hit upload, then just put the direct link in the tag.

Your new edition sounds interesting but I'm not sure what you mean by having chinchilla and black, chinchilla is a variety that is A/at cch/cch and as such cannot have black.

Sometimes cch alone can be called chinchilla in which case a black mouse with one copy is just a black mouse carrying chinchilla (in which case you'll get 50% black 50% burmese when bred to your siamese or if cch/cch then a sepia (so the outcome would be 100% burmese)

Good luck with your projects and very exciting getting the dove


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Yes, but the images will expire after a few days.

Oh yes, Sepia is the name. The outcross buck is Sepia= Black piebald carrying Chinchilla.

Thanks!


----------



## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Lake Mousery said:


> Yes, but the images will expire after a few days.


Nope, the default option on the link I posted is to never expire.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update October 30, 2017:

*Viewer discretion is advised. Post consists of information about culling.*

*Outcross*
My outcross, a Piebald, Sepia, Splash buck, was successful in mating 5 of my Seal Point Siamese does. A few pups are Splashed, 1 Tri-Color, and multiple blacks.

I successfully created Siamese Roan- 3 bucks and 1 doe. However, I am not sure whether it is a simple aspect of combining the genes or a mutation. I bred over 11 litters of Seal Point Siamese X Roan, but have only acquired 4 Siamese Roan mice. Siamese Roan manifests in a significantly darker/bluish-ticked coat, with slight black shading on their noes and ears. The fox underbelly is also less prominent and is more like a grey hue.

*Culling*
I unfortunately culled my first litter a few weekends ago. After research, it is obvious of the physical benefits for the remaining pups in artificially decreased litters. However, I have decided to implement a different method for culling. I breed a 'viable' doe (breeding quality) and a 'foster' doe (non-breeding quality) at the same time. Once the babies are born, I remove the foster doe's pinkies and house her with the viable doe and her litter. Resulting in 2 nursing does per litter. In addition, it removes the possibility of me accidentally culling a viable pinkie.

*Type 1 and Type 2*
What I previously referred as dark and light Roan, has previously been classified as 'Type 1' and 'Type 2' Roan. After various discussions with Roan/Merle breeders on the west coast, my goal is to identify the genetic difference and cause of Type 1 and Type 2 Roans.

Type 1 = Light Roan
Type 2 = Dark Roan

*Breeding Mistake:*
I also realized I made a noticeable breeding mistake two generations ago. I stupidly bred Prince, one of my best Type 1 Roan bucks, to the majority of my Roan does, even though he had a slight bent in his left ear. Now, the fault is appearing in multiple individuals of my stock. I regret my decision, but will eventually resolve it.

*Future Plans*
I acquired 2 young bucks carrying A^y- a gene that I plan to breed and implement into my Merle line in 2018.

Right now, I am waiting for my current litters to mature. I will have to work back towards breeding Seal Point Siamese- since I now have mixed in Chinchilla, Sepia, Piebald, and Splash.

I will probably designate separate lines for Splashed/Tricolor, while maintaining my Roan, Merle, and Siamese lines. My Siamese Roan bucks have developed the most promising attributes, possibly resulting from an aspect of hyper vigor. I will be acquiring more outcrosses of English descended lines in December and January.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update December 10, 2017:

Hello! I hope everyone is looking forward to the holidays! Since my last update, I have acquired a variety of stock deriving or originating from breeders in Wisconsin, Virginia, Pennsylvania and Maryland. I am very excited! I also discovered that my self Black mice are Extreme Black. In result, my focused variations are Seal Point Siamese, Roan/Merle and Extreme Black.

I am going to breed all the outcrosses into my lines, thus initiating heterosis within the first generation. There after, I am going to conduct genetic purging for 5-7 generations. This will assist me in breeding back towards my intended coat variations. Each breeding combination (listed below) will result in an individual line. Within each line, I will have three strains dedicated for color, type/size and ears. It can be assumed that multiple strains will be eliminated after genetic purging. My goal is to complete genetic purging and establish completed/stable lines by February, 2019.

Background information: What is genetic purging?
Genetic purging is a basic breeding practice of inbreeding (brothers to sisters) for multiple generations until subsequent offspring are almost genetically identical. Genetic purging makes the genetics homozgyous after each generation, resulting recessive genes, including deleterious alleles, being expressed. During the initial generations, significant fertility and fitness will be lost. In addition, multiple lines often become eliminated due to infertility and health issues. However, fitness and fertility begin to recover after the 5-7 generation. Offspring are relatively identical by generation 9-12.

Current or upcoming breeding combinations:
*Chocolate buck from Pennsylvania, weighing in at 105 grams, to Extreme Black, Seal Point Siamese and Roan/Merle does. *I am outcrossing to him to improve the size and ears of my lines.
*Results:*

Roan line:
_Color strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does
Size/Type strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does
Ears strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does_

Merle line:
_Size/Type strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does
Ears strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does_

Seal Point Siamese line:
_Color strain- 3 buck, 5-10 does
Size/Type strain- 3 buck, 10-20 does
Ears strain- 3 buck, 5-10 does_

Extreme Black line:
_Color strain- 3 buck, 5-10 does
Size/Type strain- 3 buck, 10-20 does
Ears strain- 3 buck, 5-10 does_

*Merle buck from Wisconsin to my Burmese does.
Results:*

Roan line:
_Color strain- 1 buck, 3 does
Size/Type strain- 1 buck, 3 does
Ears strain- 1 buck, 3 does
_
Merle line:
_Size/Type strain- 1 buck, 3 does
Ears strain- 1 buck, 3 does
_

*Roan buck to Merle does from Wisconsin.
Results:*

Roan line:
_Color strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does
Size/Type strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does
Ears strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does
_
Merle line:
_Color strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does
Size/Type strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does
Ears strain- 1 buck, 3-5 does_

*Piebald Sepia buck from Maryland to Champagne does from Virginia and Pennsylvania.
Results:*

Size line:
_Strain 1- 2 buck, 5-7 does
Strain 2- 2 buck, 5-7 does_

Ear line:
_Strain 1- 2 buck, 5-7 does
Strain 2- 2 buck, 5-7 does_

Type line:
_Strain 1- 2 buck, 5-7 does
Strain 2- 2 buck, 5-7 does_


----------



## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

Do any of the mice you gave me carry extreme black?


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Cheshire Gleam said:


> Do any of the mice you gave me carry extreme black?


It is very likely that both the Merle and Siamese mice carry Extreme Black.


----------



## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

Okay, thank you.


----------



## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Sent you a pm when you get a chance. Congrats on your acquisitions!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update December 22, 2017:

I just upgraded my breeding setup with new 200 quarts containers from my previous 66 quarts containers. In addition, I have switched to glass water bottles instead of plastic due to the removal of plastic toxins, increased size and durability, not climb-able and glass does not expire compared to plastic.

Due to the larger containers, I plan to expand the mouse population to 700, which will assist in increasing the gene pool. I currently have approximately 300 mice, including Splashed, Extreme Black/Black, Chocolate, Argente, Piebald, Roan, Merle, Blue, Seal/Chocolate/Blue Point Siamese, Chinchilla, Sepia, Burmese and Beige. However, I am gradually working towards my original concentration of Seal Point Siamese, Roan/Merle, and Extreme Black.

I have multiple litters upcoming, including:
Burmese X Roan = Increase size in general (serve as foster does)
Chocolate X Seal Point Siamese = Increase size in Siamese
Chocolate X Extreme Black = Increase size and expand Extreme Black population
Siamese Roan X Roan = Roan/Merle
Roan X Roan/Merle = Roan/Merle
Piebald Roan X Type 1 Roan = Type 1 Roan Experiment
Argente X Piebald Sepia = Increase size in general


----------



## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

sounds an impressive set up.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update March 6, 2018:

So a lot has changed since my last update. My previous breeding plans were not pursued. I realized that I was not satisfied with the behavior, cognitive abilities and health within the majority of the outcrosses. The first few litters experienced increased cannibalism and infant mortality. The outcrosses also had decreased immunity as they developed sickness after being paired. They also did not have the behavior preferences of running on the wheel and overall fitness.

In result, I decided to abandon most of the integration of the outcrosses into my lines. I have successfully bred a Chocolate Merle and Sepia Tricolor within my Roan and Seal Point Siamese lines for increased diversity. However, I have bred the offspring back to my lines, resulting in a 25% foreign genetic variation.

I will begin specializing in Extreme Black, Seal Point Siamese and Roan. I have an abundance of Roan and Merle. I have multiple Seal Point Siamese litters at approximately 2 weeks of age. I have approximately 8 viable Extreme Blacks at approximately 2 months of age. I have also begun to bred a Martin Sable buck to the by-products (Burmese & Beige) of my population. I hope to breed A^y Red in the future.

Current Approximate Stock Population:
100 Bucks
400 Does
100-150 Pinkies

The next breeding session will be pairings of siblings to solidify the preferred recessives genes. I will also be posting pictures in my next update!


----------



## Fantasia Mousery (Jul 16, 2011)

Looking forward to pictures, especially of your Siamese  Do you have pictures of your setup as well?


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Sure, I will take pictures of my set-up.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update April 27, 2018:

Mice are doing great! I have successfully expanded the gene pool, incorporating all the viable outcrosses. I have selected my studs for each line. I have a few litters growing up. I hope to begin the process of genetic purging by July.

Current studs:
Smoke- Seal Point Siamese
Shade- Siamese Splash
Barmask- Black Merle
Mudd- Burmese Merle
Arrow- Regular Black
Ravenous- C-dilute Splash

As promised, I took photographs of my mice, primarily the bucks and babies. Unfortunately, my mice are not photogenic and refuse to erect their ears for picture time. Regardless, I hope you enjoy the pictures!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)




----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update April 30, 2018:

*Current Studs:*
*Smoke- Seal Point Siamese*
Smoke is my previous stud that I bred to my Extreme Black does. He is the son of Choobucka, Cheop's brother.

*Shade- Siamese Splash*
He is my current Seal Point Siamese stud. He has exceptional ears, type, and size. However, he has bad molting and battle scars. I am mating him to all my Burmese Splashed does to extract the Siamese gene. Thereafter, I will begin combining Shade's and Ravenous' offspring.

*Barmask- Black Merle*
He is my current Roan/Merle stud. He has exceptional type, size, and color. However, I am concerned regarding the placement of his ears. However, it is difficult to tell because he has multiple battle scars. He is currently mating 7 Roan does, which will serve as the foundation for my Roan line.

*Mudd- Burmese Merle*
He is my current stud for improving type, head, and size. However, he has multiple micro tears on his ears. I believe it is a genetic fault.

*Arrow- Regular Black*
He was bred to my Extreme Black does. However, he will likely be retired because he is standard black.

*Ravenous- C-dilute Splash*
I have bred Ravenous to all my Siamese Splashed does, daughters of Choobucka. He has the best ears out of my whole stock population.

*Current Mouse Population:*
Extreme Black
Group 1: 14 does
Group 2: 2 bucks, 5 does

Seal Point Siamese
Does: 5

Seal Point Siamese Splashed
Does: 21

Burmese Splashed
Does: 15

Roan/Merle:
Does: 8


----------



## StarryEyes (Apr 29, 2018)

Hello! You seem like a great breeder, maybe you could help me out? I am wondering what colors the babies may be if I cross a male black piebald (a/a s/s) with a female silver (a/a b/b p/p).


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Silver is pink-eyed blue, which is a/a B/* d/d p/p

The babies will likely be black unless they have correlating recessives.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update June 7, 2018:

The mice are doing well and their phenotypes are improving each generation. Unfortunately, I will no longer have the available time to tend my current stock population because I have been accepted to a graduates program at my college. As a result, I am decreasing my stock population by 90%. I will keep approximately 40 does and 7 bucks. I am hoping that my lines do not become victims of inbreeding depression and ultimately collapse. In addition, I have recently begun to consider breeding dogs after college. This pursuit would be further encouraged if my mouse lines do not survive.

I plan to do a few more pairings before the end of the summer. My largest Color-Pointed Beige (89 grams) buck to my four largest Burmese Splashed does (70-80 grams). I also want to expand my Extreme Black and Roan lines by breeding 4 does per line. There after, I will make my selection by August and hopefully post images. I will not breed the selected mice until December or January.

*Current Breeding Lines:
*
*Roan*
2 Bucks
4 Does

*Extreme Black*
1 Buck
4 Does

*Black*
1 Buck

*Dominant Red*
I just incorporated chocolate into this line and will be expecting a litter soon.

*Seal Point Siamese (Splashed)*
3 Bucks
15 Does

*Burmese (Splashed)*
4 Does


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update August 20, 2018:

Decreasing my stock has been a very difficult task because I keep wanting to progress my lines. I have seen so much improvement in the phenotypes that I am excited every new generation. I wish I could provide pictures. But I do not have a viable camera recently, hopefully new pictures by October. However, I will be returning to college soon so I am concentrating my numbers. I have a few young Burmese and Siamese Splashed offspring that I need to select from.

I somewhat regret my previous selected stud, known as Ravenous. He is the white splashed mouse photographed in my previous post. He had great ears, fitness, and size. However, I under-estimated his type, which was a very thin frame and smaller bone structure. I prefer mice that are bulky and robust type. However, a lot of the descendants of Ravenous share the same quality of a thin body structure. I will have to resolve this mistake in the coming generations.

My latest breeding buck is Wyvern, who is a Beige Splashed with exceptional type, ear size, and set. He is mated to two Extreme Blacks and two Burmese does. This will be the last breeding session until 2019.

In January, I plan to:

Breed Pitbull, a Siamese Splashed buck. He has average ears but contains an uncommon skeletal structure compared to my mouse population. His bones appear larger and more dense. His body even feels more compact and heavy. He is not as long as some of my bucks but his head and shoulder width is approximately 30%-40% larger than all my mice. In addition, he shows great physical fitness and motor skills. He weighs almost 75 grams at the age of 3 months- hopefully more growth. By expanding the frequency of the increased skeletal structure, hopefully this will encourage larger and more robust mice in the future.

Combine the genetics of Dark (Extreme Black) and Blavenous (Normal Black). Dark has great color but lacks in ears, type, and size. Where as, his distant cousin, Blavenous, inherits wonderful quality in these traits but does not have Extreme Black. I have two upcoming Extreme Black litters from Dark. I plan to breed all the does to Blavenous, then inbreed the offspring to eliminate coat recessives. Roan and Extreme Black will be interconnected lines to provide greater diversity and population size since they are fortunately compatible. Extreme Black will be my foundation variety since it supports both Siamese, Burmese, and Roan/Merle. I hope to greatly increase the frequency of Extreme Black and eventually breed out Normal Black from all my varieties.

Incorporate Satin coat within all the varieties. Satin has disappeared since the implementation of the outcrosses. However, it is slowly appearing within the recent litters. I plan to re-instate the shiny style back into all the varieties. I have always been a fan of the metallic and shimmering appearance.

After acquiring the offspring of Pitbull, I may assist a local friend, whom also breeds mice extensively. Her breeding goals revolve around variations of Brindle coats. In the spring of 2019, I plan to experiment with breeding Brindle Siamese mice, while maintaining my Extreme Black and Roan/Merle lines. This would allow more compatible outcrosses for her, since we frequently trade/borrow mice.

Current Populations:
20-30 Burmese Splashed, Siamese Splashed does- still need to be selected
30-40 Burmese Splashed, Siamese Splashed bucks- still need to be selected
10 Siamese Splashed does
3 Roan does with a total of 3 upcoming litters
2 Extreme Black does with a total of 2 upcoming litters (14 viable pups with no white-tips or hairs)
2 Extreme Black does, mated with Wyvern
2 Burmese Splashed does, mated with Wyvern
1 Beige Splashed doe, (has similar unique skeptical structure as Pitbull) mated with Wyvern
1 Seal Point Siamese Splashed with a litter, mated to Dragon
1 Extreme Black stud (Dark) Homozygous a^e gene
1 Normal Black stud (Blavenous) Size, son of Ravenous
1 Seal Point Siamese Splashed stud (Pitbull) Type, descendant of Mudd
1 Seal Point Siamese Splashed stud (Bruce) Backup, descendant of Mudd
1 Beige Splashed stud (Wyvern) Ears, son of Dragon
1 Beige Splashed stud (Dragon) Size

My goal in 2019 is to reach a population of 2,000 mice. I have already acquired 20 new 50-gallon bins, in addition to my current 10 50-gallon bins and 40 70-quart bins. Can't wait!


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

How interesting, thanks for the update.
2000 mice, wow, you will have your hands full!
Hope to see pics when you can sort the camera


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Thanks and no problem!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update September 18, 2018:

Objectives:
December breeding session-
Breed Wyvern to remaining adult does, to improve ears
Breed Blavenous to Extreme Black does, to improve size and type

February breeding session-
Begin breeding secondary lines (Brindle)

Long-term, Ongoing-
Implement Extreme Black into all the lines/mice

Studs:
Pitbull- Siamese Splashed
Blavenous- Regular Black
Wyvern- Beige Splashed
Holmes: Burmese Splashed
Striker: Colorpoint Beige Splashed

Primary Lines:
Seal Point Siamese Normal and Splashed
a^e/a^e ch/ch Spl/*
a^e/a^e ch/ch spl/spl - Primary Goal
Extreme Black
a^e/a^e C/* - Primary Goal
Roan/Merle
a^e/a^e C/* ro/ro
a^e/a^e ch/ch ro/ro - Primary Goal

Secondary Lines:
Variations of Brindle, including:
A^vy/a^e c^ch/c^ch Spl/spl s/s - Primary Goal
A^vy/a^e c^e/c^h Spl/spl s/s
A^vy/a^e c^h/c^ch Spl/spl s/s
A^vy/a^e c^ch/c^e Spl/spl s/s


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update September 22, 2018:

Recent images depicting a few of my does, sorry I didn't have time to take photos of all the does or any of the bucks. Enjoy! :mrgreen:


























chemical formula for bromide


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update November 11, 2018:

Mice are doing well. However, slight increase in deleterious gene expression due to compounding inbreeding coefficient.
2 randomly deceased offspring
1 doe with mammary tumor growth at 1.5 years of age
5 cases of respiratory illness due to immune deficiency
3 cases of decreased size

I have officially isolated my mousery, in which I will no longer be accepting new outcrosses any longer. I felt that a lot of the foreign mice displayed health/vitality defects and non-preferred recessive genes related to morphology. The only trait I feel that I have improved from outcrossing was slight increase in size. I have decided to pursue the creation of a book about mouse husbandry, specifically regarding developing morphology and line management to minimize inbreeding depression. I never found an intensive interest or indulged in coat color. I will also be abandoning my pursuit of Seal Point Siamese, as I do not promote or like the red eye manifestation due to visual impairment within effected specimens. Thus, directing my sole focus on Extreme Black and Siamese Roan- black eyed mice.

Current mouse population is greatly decreased, however inbreeding depression should not be an issue because these individuals originate from over 1000 mice. Thus realistic population is minimal, but genetic variance is likely sufficient among the selected individuals.
6 Extreme Black does
4 Black does
1 Black buck

2 Burmese piebald does
1 Brindle buck
1 Burmese Tri-color buck

3 PEW does
1 BEW doe
7 Siamese Splashed does

5 Roan does
3 Burmese doe
1 Burmese buck
1 Colorpoint Beige buck

Here are images of my latest favorite buck, named Security, whom is a Colorpoint Beige. He has a slight tear in his left ear as an injury from fighting with his brother. Security has since acquired his personal tank. He just turned 7 weeks today. Happy Birthday Security! 
https://ibb.co/g8v0Nq
https://ibb.co/c5Zo8V
https://ibb.co/nJD4hq
https://ibb.co/mDhVNq
https://ibb.co/gbHKFA
https://ibb.co/jNfT8V


----------



## Revonue (Nov 11, 2018)

I really enjoyed reading about your project! I think your Siamese are my personal favorite of the bunch, but they all look great  Looking forward to seeing how they progress!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Thanks, glad you enjoy the thread. Yeah, Seal Point Siamese was my favorite for a long time too.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update December 4, 2018:

Within the last two generations, respiratory illness has become apparent within my mouse population. I hypothesize that a few of the outcross individuals from 3 generations ago carried poor immunity on the X chromosome. I predict that the negative immunity genes derive from the X chromosome because the illness primarily affects my bucks. Since I am genetically purging the lines, the frequency of respiratory illness has slightly increased.

Security, my previous selected future stud, has fallen ill to respiratory illness. I am relying on two of my best two burmese splashed does to produce future buck replacements. Fingers-crossed! If replacements are not produced, I will be force to breed to either of my long-term and healthy studs- Blavenous, a standard black buck at 63 grams or Pitbull, a siamese splashed at 69 grams.

Overtime, respiratory illness will be bred out through selective breeding of mice with acceptable immunity- the only long-term solution to such problem.
I currently have two roan litters, produced by Revival and 4 extreme black litters, produced by Blavenous. Hopefully, photographs in my next post.


----------



## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

Hope the health of your mice gets better soon! I've been experiencing something similar with mine.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Thanks! Yeah, I am sure that this issue will be resolved soon. I had this issue before, when I first began my lines. In addition, it is only a few select mice (5%) that are exhibiting respiratory illness. They share similar ancestor from a breeder in Pennsylvania- whom must carried immuno system suppressors for the specific virus strain within my mice.

Also, if you are having respiratory illness develop without the implementation of outcrosses, I would be wary because you may be experiencing increased consolidation of inbreeding depression.


----------



## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

Yes, you're right on the mark. I have some new blood that I will be integrating into my lines soon. The mice I started out with also had respiratory issues, along with many other health problems, that were successfully bred out. My intent is to do the same again. Excited to see pictures when you get the chance!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update December 9, 2018:

Here are pictures of a few of my does. I currently have 2 Roan litters, 4 Extreme Black litters, and 2 Burmese Splashed litters. Unfortunately, I am running a little behind schedule and willn't be able to breed these beauties until January or February.  Too many mice that I have to breed! My mice have never been photogenic, but I tried.


----------



## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

Gorgeous! Great tail roots and ears. I'm jelly. :lol:


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Thanks, if you are ever willing to drive down to Maryland again. I'd be glad to share some of my stock.


----------



## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

That's a very generous offer, thank you. I'll have to again when I find the time!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update January 2, 2019:

Security has unfortunately passed away recently due to the respiratory illness. I have since consolidated and contained the outbreak. Luckily, I have plenty of immune bucks and does! Here are photographs of two breeding bucks, Pitbull- Siamese Splashed 72g and Bougie- Burmese 63g. Although, they refused to stay still and Pitbull was treated with olive oil for precautionary lice treatment.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update January 11, 2019:

It is breeding season! I currently have 6 litters, sired by Bougie. In addition, I have 7 litters, sired by Pitbull, on the way.

Hopefully, I will begin acquiring Roan in the next generation.

Here is a photo of young bucks from my Extreme Black.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update January 15, 2019:

The mice are doing well! Unfortunately, Bougie died yesterday- experiencing the same fate as his earlier brother, known as Security (nicknamed Dougie). Both bucks shared the best ears within my population, in addition to exceptional overall phenotype. It is unfortunate that they contain an immune deficiency that I have traced to a highly inbred source from a breeder in Maryland.

Regardless, I have provided a listing of all my recent litters and brief explanations.

*Objectives:*
-Abstract the ear gene from Bougie's offspring without passing the immune deficiency.
-Consolidate the Roan and Siamese genes (recessive) to make progress in my ultimate goal of Siamese Roan mice
-Promote ideal type and face shape within the population

*Litters:
Classified based upon parents and genotype- not based upon phenotype or quantity.*

Format:
Stud name, phenotype X Does' phenotype, quantity - <designated/best trait>
Notes

*Litter 1*
Revival, Pink-eyed White Splash X Burmese Splash, 2 - size, type, ears
Revival is a huge (85 grams), scarred, and hardcore Pink-eyed White buck, whom has experienced much hardship of interstate traveling, being bullied by older bucks, living outside briefly, and almost dying to his vicious brother, Ravenous- father of Blavenous. I mated him to my two best Burmese Splash does, both weighing 72 - 75 grams. From the offspring's current 1 month development, they will likely manifest into my best mice in regards to size, and type with exceptional ears. I strive to utilize both the male and female offspring, likely the studs after Pitbull retires. As a result, I am keeping all of them until the minimum age of 5 months.

*Litter 2*
Revival, Pink-eyed White Splash X Roan, 3 - Roan, size
In addition to breeding him to my two best Burmese Splash does, I bred him to my three best Roan does, weighing 46 - 53 grams, in hope that he will provide the improvement in bone structure, size, type, and ears that I desire.

*Litter 3*
Blavenous, Normal Black X Extreme Black, 4 - Extreme Black, size
Blavenous is a phenomenal Black buck, in regards to his unconventional large size of 73 grams (most Black mice are genetically smaller compared to the lighter coats). However, Blavenous does not carry Extreme Black and he has sub-par ear placement. One of the does within the colony breeding session died, however her offspring were fostered by the remaining three does. I can not identify the possibly unviable offspring of the deceased doe. As a result, I can not breed the bucks from these litters. I will breed the does to an alternative buck, whom carries the Extreme Black gene- most likely Pitbull.

*Litter 4*
Bougie, Extreme Black Burmese X Pink-eyed White Splash, 6 - ears, size
Offspring will most likely have phenomenal ears. I must determine whether such ear gene is present on the Y chromosome. If so, I will be forced to selectively breed a buck. However, I can not excessively breed male offspring descending from Bougie, else I threaten the mistake of solidifying poor immune deficiency in the population. As a result, I will have to wait and age viable buck offspring for a year before breeding- thus determining the healthiest long-term buck of Bougie.

*Litter 5*
Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Siamese Piebald, 1 - Siamese, ears, size, type
Pitbull is my current best overall male. He has an abnormally larger head and bone structure compared to my other mice. He weighs 86 grams and is very athletic for his size, much more than Revival. He also has above average ears and the best head shape- thick, chiseled, shovel-like head. He is currently 1 and half years old, which is why I am confident in regards to the viability of his genotype. The Siamese Piebald doe shares similar features to him and has slightly better ears. I hope to acquire some fabulous Seal Point Siamese offspring from this pair!

*Litter 6*
Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Chocolate, 1 - Siamese, ears
I mated Pitbull with a Chocolate doe that had the second best ears in my population (the first being Bougie). In addition, she does not carry the immune deficiency because she originates from a completely different lineage. I predict that it may be a completely different ear mutation compared to Bougie's. The negative aspect is that she is Chocolate and does not carry Siamese or Roan.

*Litter 7*
Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Roan, 1 - Siamese, Roan, size, type
The Roan doe was a random appearance from an Extreme Black pairing. However, her sister developed a tumor early in development. I am hoping to acquire Roan and/or Roan-carrying mice.

*Litter 8*
Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Burmese, 2 - Siamese, size, type
The Burmese does have great size and type. However, they have slight and infrequent wheezing. I will not be breeding the bucks of this offspring to avoid the promotion of respiratory vulnerability.

*Litter 9*
Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Normal Black, 2 - Siamese, size
The Normal Black does have great size, similarly to Blavenous, and great ears. However, they have slight and infrequent wheezing. I will not be breeding the bucks of this offspring to avoid the promotion of respiratory vulnerability.

*Mouse Book*
I am in the final stages of completing a book in regards to the selective breeding of morphology in Mus musculus. I hope to have it copyrighted in the summer when I have more available time.


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Lake Mousery said:


> *Mouse Book*
> I am in the final stages of completing a book in regards to the selective breeding of morphology in Mus musculus. I hope to have it copyrighted in the summer when I have more available time.


How exciting! Keep us informed.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update February 28, 2019:

Another case of respiratory illness is spreading throughout the population. The viral infection originates from a male mouse from Pennsylvania. However, I believe it has recently mutated because it is much more contagious (air-borne). In addition, a male mouse from Maryland carries an immuno deficiency on the Y-chromosome. This has led to the perish of all male descendants of this mouse, in which two were Dougie (Security) and Bougie.

However, I am fortunate that approximately 30 mice are immune to such illness. The bucks within the population are most vulnerable.

*Status Report on Previous Litters*
Here is an update regarding the litters from the previous breeding session:



> *Litter 1*
> Revival, Pink-eyed White Splash X Burmese Splash, 2 - size, type, ears
> Revival is a huge (85 grams), scarred, and hardcore Pink-eyed White buck, whom has experienced much hardship of interstate traveling, being bullied by older bucks, living outside briefly, and almost dying to his vicious brother, Ravenous- father of Blavenous. I mated him to my two best Burmese Splash does, both weighing 72 - 75 grams. From the offspring's current 1 month development, they will likely manifest into my best mice in regards to size, and type with exceptional ears. I strive to utilize both the male and female offspring, likely the studs after Pitbull retires. As a result, I am keeping all of them until the minimum age of 5 months.


Litter 1 is an absolute success, probably providing the most viable offspring last breeding session.



> *Litter 2*
> Revival, Pink-eyed White Splash X Roan, 3 - Roan, size
> In addition to breeding him to my two best Burmese Splash does, I bred him to my three best Roan does, weighing 46 - 53 grams, in hope that he will provide the improvement in bone structure, size, type, and ears that I desire.


Litter 2 contains 2 viable Roan-carrying bucks and 5 viable Roan-carrying does.



> *Litter 3*
> Blavenous, Normal Black X Extreme Black, 4 - Extreme Black, size
> Blavenous is a phenomenal Black buck, in regards to his unconventional large size of 73 grams (most Black mice are genetically smaller compared to the lighter coats). However, Blavenous does not carry Extreme Black and he has sub-par ear placement. One of the does within the colony breeding session died, however her offspring were fostered by the remaining three does. I can not identify the possibly unviable offspring of the deceased doe. As a result, I can not breed the bucks from these litters. I will breed the does to an alternative buck, whom carries the Extreme Black gene- most likely Pitbull.


Blavenous has experienced slight wheezing within the last week. However, I think he will develop an immunity. As a result, his offspring are under evaluation. Possibly, 8 viable Extreme Black bucks and 10 viable Extreme Black does.



> *Litter 4*
> Bougie, Extreme Black Burmese X Pink-eyed White Splash, 6 - ears, size
> Offspring will most likely have phenomenal ears. I must determine whether such ear gene is present on the Y chromosome. If so, I will be forced to selectively breed a buck. However, I can not excessively breed male offspring descending from Bougie, else I threaten the mistake of solidifying poor immune deficiency in the population. As a result, I will have to wait and age viable buck offspring for a year before breeding- thus determining the healthiest long-term buck of Bougie.


Bougie has deceased due to the viral infection. As a result, all of his offpsring have been non-lethally culled from the breeding population.



> *Litter 5*
> Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Siamese Piebald, 1 - Siamese, ears, size, type
> Pitbull is my current best overall male. He has an abnormally larger head and bone structure compared to my other mice. He weighs 86 grams and is very athletic for his size, much more than Revival. He also has above average ears and the best head shape- thick, chiseled, shovel-like head. He is currently 1 and half years old, which is why I am confident in regards to the viability of his genotype. The Siamese Piebald doe shares similar features to him and has slightly better ears. I hope to acquire some fabulous Seal Point Siamese offspring from this pair!


Pitbull has fallen ill. However at the age of approximately 1.5 years, he displays exceptional development discluding the immuno vulnerability. As a result, all but two of his male offspring have been non-lethally culled from the breeding program. All of his female offspring are under evaluation.

In addition, the Siamese Piebald doe of this pairing has developed a slight bump on her rump. If such growth manifests as a tumor, the litter will be non-lethally culled from the breeding population.



> *Litter 6*
> Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Chocolate, 1 - Siamese, ears
> I mated Pitbull with a Chocolate doe that had the second best ears in my population (the first being Bougie). In addition, she does not carry the immune deficiency because she originates from a completely different lineage. I predict that it may be a completely different ear mutation compared to Bougie's. The negative aspect is that she is Chocolate and does not carry Siamese or Roan.


The Chocolate doe of this pairing is named "Chica". Chica is one of my healthiest does from an immune and health perspective, in addition to her phenomenal type and ears. Due to these traits, I have ignored her Chocolate coat which is a complete counter to my overall coat objective. Her offspring have developed well and as a result, I am keeping two of her sons with Pitbull for further evaluation. One buck is a light Roan with a pink eye and ruby eye (odd-eye). The other buck is a Chocolate Merle.



> *Litter 7*
> Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Roan, 1 - Siamese, Roan, size, type
> The Roan doe was a random appearance from an Extreme Black pairing. However, her sister developed a tumor early in development. I am hoping to acquire Roan and/or Roan-carrying mice.


Will be breeding one of the two Roan bucks from Revival's litter (litter 2) to the does of this litter. This will serve as the foundation of my future Roan and Merle line.



> *Litter 8*
> Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Burmese, 2 - Siamese, size, type
> The Burmese does have great size and type. However, they have slight and infrequent wheezing. I will not be breeding the bucks of this offspring to avoid the promotion of respiratory vulnerability.


I am not enthralled by the health displayed by these does during nursing. As a result, I will be selectively breeding only 2-5 does from these two litters.



> *Litter 9*
> Pitbull, Seal Point Siamese Splash X Normal Black, 2 - Siamese, size
> The Normal Black does have great size, similarly to Blavenous, and great ears. However, they have slight and infrequent wheezing. I will not be breeding the bucks of this offspring to avoid the promotion of respiratory vulnerability.


I am not enthralled by the health displayed by these does during nursing. As a result, I will be selectively breeding only 1-5 does from these two litters. In addition, I acquired a lot of unwanted PEW mice from these litters.

*Upcoming Tricolor Mice*
As stated in the past, I am assisting a fellow mouse breeder and friend with her mice population. She breeds Brindle Tri-Color mice, genotype: A^y/* B/* c^ch/c^ch s/s Spl/*.

I have two litters of Burmese Tricolors. I think they are very cute and aesthetically different from my regular mice. Photos soon!

*Future Experiment*
Due to graduate school, I am forced to drastically reduce my breeding populations for the next 3 years. However, from this manifestation, I will also be conducting a test regarding selective breeding of late-matured mice and its effects on inbreeding depression. Per strain, I will begin breeding 5 female mice at the age of 8 months. Of those 5 original does, the 2 female mice that developed the best will be bred again at 1 year age. Bucks will not be selected for breeding until 1 year of age. I theorize that by breeding at a later age, it results in: breeding for healthiest mice, thus the ones that aged the least and experienced the least illness, thus the ones that carry the least recessive deleterious genes and contain the best immune system, thus the one that has later thymus devolution.

An associate inserted the manifestation of the degeneration of sperm quality caused by increase de novo mutation. However, in previous studies, drastic mutation rates were present within individuals. Thus, I theorize and hope that lesser mutation rate will occur within healthier bucks, whom have a strong immune and health response.

I enact this new breeding strategy after May, 2019. However, due to this new manifestation, I will be postponing my book until this experiment is completed or developed (likely 2022).

*Hyper-Vigor Skepticism*
As stated in many articles, especially related to mice, it is thought that breeding two un-related individuals from separate populations result in an heterogeneous genotype. Thus, manifestation of deleterious recessive genes are absent. However, this is a highly simplified view and does not account for gene modifiers. I have noticed from my previous outcrossing the manifestation of unconnected faults within the first generation. Modifiers affect the manifestation of alleles, however the dominance of such modifiers are amibigious. Thus, it is very much possible to implement or manifest additional deleterious genes from an outcross within the initial and following generations. This is caused due to the lack of shared modifiers between the population that ultimately alter the expression of carried deleterious genes within both parents.

*Important Generation*
I claim that this latest generation serves as a significant milestone within the genetic purging of this population. My last unrelated outcrosses occurred over 4 generations previous. The population is completing its final major bottleneck. I will be photoing a lot of the mice from the recent generation, especially the viable bucks; as they will be the founders of the future strains for above strategy. Photos in my next post.


----------



## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

Hoping that the trouble and illness passes soon! Excited to see the tricolors, very appealing variety.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update March 20, 2019:

Thanks Cheshire Gleam! The illness has subsided.

Here are photographs of some of my latest bucks.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update April 2, 2019:

I have recently decreased my population by approximately 90%. I am mating my best buck, Boz- the photographed Burmese Roan above, to my best doe, Blit- Extreme Black doe.

I can't wait for the pups. I also have a new favorite pet mouse. He is a buck and is named Mo. He is strangely very friendly. However, I think this is connected to the fact that he was the only offspring of his litter and he is much more small, and round. I will post photographs soon!


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

That is a massive decrease in stock! I often try to reduce my stock but prove, most of the time, unsuccessful at this.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Yeah, it was very difficult for me to decrease the mouse population. But I had reached my goal of approximately 2000 mice, which had become gradually unmanageable.

The progress per generation seemed to decrease due to such a wide genetic selection. The time to consolidate also seemed appropriate because I have just finished genetic purging. So I kept the healthiest and best-looking mice.


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Sure to see improvement soon then!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update April 18, 2019:

Current Studs:
Boz- Roan, possibly Burmese or Chocolate
Son of Pitbull and Chica (litter 6)
He has fathered a litter with Cindy, my best Extreme Black doe.

Shi- Himilayan Roan
Son of Revival and one of my best Roan does (litter 2)
He will soon be bred to two sisters of Cindy- Lin and Min.

I refer to Cindy, Lin, and Min as the Blav Sisters. They are the daughters of Blavenous.

Revival passed away last week and Pitbull was retired from breeding. I will post photos this weekend. :mrgreen:


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update May 3, 2019:

Images of past female mice before population selection.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update May 5, 2019:


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

What a selection!
Some have very nice type.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Thanks! I am quite excited for the next few generations. The recessives are finally becoming homozygous, so Roan and Extreme Black will start propagating soon :mrgreen:.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update May 30, 2019:

It seems that my mice have acquired an immunity but carry a specific respiratory virus. Unrelated mice that come into contact with my mice often become fatally ill. As a result, I will not be helping a local breeder with her mice- since they are all susceptible to the disease. I have since isolated my mousery so that I am not receiving new outcrosses. However, I plan to continue breeding an acceptable amount to counter inbreeding depression.

Current Litters:
3 Extreme Black
2 Roan

Upcoming Litters:
4 Extreme Black
1 Roan
1 Burmese Roan
1 Burmese Tricolor

Here are a few photos:
Burmese Tricolor doe and the remaining are current studs.


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Update June 24, 2019:

Everything is great in the mousery! :mrgreen: It seems the latest generation has finally locked down the ears that I have been breeding for. Next is color! :twisted:

Final stock foundation:
Blavenous- Extreme Black

Chica
Lin
Min

Revival- Roan

Shi

Pitbull- Siamese
Brown- Burmese

































chemical equation for aluminum oxide


----------



## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

Very nice, and good to hear all is going well in the mousey!


----------



## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

Beauties!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)

Thanks!


----------



## Amtma Mousery (Jan 29, 2015)




----------

