# I.D. Helps



## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

So, I found a local breeder. He breeds for feeders, but has several different varieties. Was wondering if I could get some help I.D.ing them, as he is not sure what varieties he has.

Dove or Champagne?








I'm seeing silver, black, chocolate, and either hairless or fuzzy.

















Definitely some long haired ones as well.









I'm looking for dove, silver, satin, and now I'm interested in those hairless ones (or fuzzy? I read that fuzzies can look hairless because they lose their fur often).

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

The first picture looks champagne rather than dove (pink eyed chocolate)

The hairless looking ones are fuzzy rather than hairless. Fuzzy don't look hairless because they lose their fur often, its just a very variable gene where a lot of breeders have bred it towards more of the hairless side, it can get really dense and is just down to selective breeding rather than molting out fur.

A couple of the angora may be silver and I think a few of the grey ones with dark eyes are lilac (blue + chocolate). Think I see a dove or two in there (I think the one looking at the camera in the second last pic is for example) as well as a blue in the bottom left of the last pic.


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> The first picture looks champagne rather than dove (pink eyed chocolate)
> 
> The hairless looking ones are fuzzy rather than hairless. Fuzzy don't look hairless because they lose their fur often, its just a very variable gene where a lot of breeders have bred it towards more of the hairless side, it can get really dense and is just down to selective breeding rather than molting out fur.
> 
> A couple of the angora may be silver and I think a few of the grey ones with dark eyes are lilac (blue + chocolate). Think I see a dove or two in there (I think the one looking at the camera in the second last pic is for example) as well as a blue in the bottom left of the last pic.


Thanks! I wasn't too terribly off then. Champagne can be used to make doves, correct? If bred to self blacks? I enjoy the champagne coloring as well.

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

yes you can breed champ to black self then breed a black from that litter back to the champ, will get black and chocolate 50% pink eyed 50% black. I mean it could be dove and just flash/not so good lighting making it look a lot different shade than it is but judging from the images together it looks like the genes aren't kept separate so any/all of them may carry anything else the others have

so looks like a mix of pew, blue, lilac, silver, dove, champ, chocolate and then pied, fuzzy, angora thrown in, would get a lot pop out if you crossed some of those together!


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> yes you can breed champ to black self then breed a black from that litter back to the champ, will get black and chocolate 50% pink eyed 50% black. I mean it could be dove and just flash/not so good lighting making it look a lot different shade than it is but judging from the images together it looks like the genes aren't kept separate so any/all of them may carry anything else the others have
> 
> so looks like a mix of pew, blue, lilac, silver, dove, champ, chocolate and then pied, fuzzy, angora thrown in, would get a lot pop out if you crossed some of those together!


Yeah, he's definitely not breeding for pure lines, but I figured this would be a good way for me to get a bunch of different varieties and colors into my group, and then I'll work on narrowing them down into their own specific groups. Plus, it'll be fun to play "guess what the babies will look like" lol!

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## Athiena146 (Jun 1, 2016)

I would want to go to that breeder just for those fuzzies XD


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

I'll be getting a few 
We worked out a deal, and I'll hopefully be Sunday to pick them up! Now I have to decide if I want all females, or if I want to grab a male or two. Definitely getting fuzzies, doves, blues, and silvers.

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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Ok, so I picked some up. I already posted pics in another thread, but I tried to get better ones to show color in the hopes of getting some help with I.D. I grouped them together as far as color/pattern, so hopefully that'll help.

Does 1 & 2
Was told Satin Siamese. Didn't even realize they were Siamese when I picked them up. 









Doe 3
She has red eyes. Tricolor? 









Does 4, 5, and 6
I can't get their color to translate well in pics. They look silver to me, but that may be the satin. Pink eyes. I'm thinking either satin silver or satin dove. Don't think they are champagne. Not seeing that yellowish color of champagnes. 









Doe 7
I have no clue. Maybe a Siamese? She has a very light tan-ish color on top of the off white.









Doe 8
Pink eyes. Guessing dove splashed?









Doe 9
Fuzzy blue pied. I love her curls.









Does 10, 11, and 12
Either chocolate or blue pied fuzzies. I think there's a mix of them.









Does 13, 14, and 15
Blue Pieds









Doe 16
Chocolate pied









Doe 17
Satin (?) Blue fox 
















Doe 18
Angora (?) Blue Pied









Doe 19
Tricolor









Does 20 and 21
Blue splashed? They have black eyes









Buck 1
Dove splashed? Pink eyes









Buck 2
Champagne 









Buck 3
Thinking dove splashed 









And this one...I cannot, for the life of me, figure out if it's a buck or doe. Guessing blue splashed. 









Either way, I love them. Haha!

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

Does 1 and 2 are indeed satin siamese
Doe 3 - siamese based tri 
Does 4, 5, 6 - look champagne to me
Doe 7 - doesn't have points, which is strange for a siamese, usually pale points come with pale body color, from other mice you have best guess would be chocolate beige (beige is black eyed but its not uncommon for chocolates to have ruby). 
Doe 8 - blue siamese splash probably (dove can't be splash but i'll get to that after) 
Doe 9 - I want to come and steal but you're spot on the variety
Does 10, 11, 12 - the one pictures is chocolate pied
Yep blue pied
Is the choc pied angora? 
Doe 17 is probably a blue tan, the belly looks too creamy to be fox and none of the others indicate that the genes are in those colonies. Blue dilutes red quite a bit so you will never get the bright red of black tans, its usually a cream or pale yellow
Doe 18 - looks poor angora
Doe 19 - probably siamese tri 
Does 20, 21 - looks blue beige/color point beige splash

Buck 1 - Probably blue siamese splash
Buck 2 - Champ
Buck 3 - Either siamese or blue color point beige splash

last one - looks chocolate color point beige splash to be, could be another combination of siamese/beige/color point with or without chocolate splash though

and now for splash! its dominant on c-diluted mice but does not show up on non c-dilutes. Dove is not a c-diluted color, it is pink eyed black. Siamese on the other hand is ch/ch so a c-dilute. C is the dominant form and non diluted and can be linked to either pink eye or black eye, however the recessive c-dilutes are almost always linked to black eye, but their effect dilutes the eye color. (you can occasionally get genetic mix ups where when breeding a mouse with pink eyed carrying a c-dilute will pass on a dilute linked to pink eye but that is pretty rare, but you still could not get dove splash, it would have to be like dove siamese)


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> Does 1 and 2 are indeed satin siamese
> Doe 3 - siamese based tri
> Does 4, 5, 6 - look champagne to me
> Doe 7 - doesn't have points, which is strange for a siamese, usually pale points come with pale body color, from other mice you have best guess would be chocolate beige (beige is black eyed but its not uncommon for chocolates to have ruby).
> ...


Thanks so so much! I remember reading about the splashed thing, don't know why I thought dove. Haha!

Looks like I got a lot of Siamese stuff that I totally wasn't expecting.

The does that look champagne...are they just super poor champagnes? The color is quite different than the buck champagne I do have. I should try to get a pick side by side.

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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

My camera sucks. 
Buck on the left
















This is probably the best pic, color wise. 









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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Oh, and the Chocolate pied is Angora, I believe

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

I really can't tell too well, but she does look like pink eyed rather than c-diluted. Eyes that color should not go with a body that color on c-dilutes, at least they appear pink rather than dark ruby on my screen.

Maybe need to test breed to know for sure, but I'd go with poor champagne at the moment. Champ (and dove and stuff) can be really variable in color even within the same litter!


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Oh, ok. Her eyes are pink, not ruby. Lol! Thanks! Oh, and I'll be sure to send lots of pics of the little blue pied Fuzzy you like. She's a doll.

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## Lilly (Nov 21, 2015)

All the fuzzies I have access to are being bred towards the hairless side like the pied fuzzies you picked up. I like hairless, but I have true hairless to get my fix of that. That one doe though has really dense fur compared to the others and as the opposite end of the scale to hairless you can get really dense soft furred, Sadly the only one I know with really amazing ones of the dense furred type is up in WI! lol


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Lilly said:


> All the fuzzies I have access to are being bred towards the hairless side like the pied fuzzies you picked up. I like hairless, but I have true hairless to get my fix of that. That one doe though has really dense fur compared to the others and as the opposite end of the scale to hairless you can get really dense soft furred, Sadly the only one I know with really amazing ones of the dense furred type is up in WI! lol


I'll definitely be working towards that with her! I'm wanting to produce both of these fur types. They've quickly become my favorites. I wish I could have found more like her. She's like a little lamb, and just the sweetest.

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## Athiena146 (Jun 1, 2016)

Where is this guy at?


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

He's located in Middle TN, about 30 minutes outside of Nashville.

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## Athiena146 (Jun 1, 2016)

Dang... Too far away


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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Darn :/

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## KazzysKritters (Nov 16, 2016)

Found another tan! She's so lightly colored overall, that I didn't see it before.









Going to have to go through everyone and check them all more thoroughly. Haha!

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## kzpocketpets (Dec 14, 2018)

Lilly said:


> The first picture looks champagne rather than dove (pink eyed chocolate)
> 
> The hairless looking ones are fuzzy rather than hairless. Fuzzy don't look hairless because they lose their fur often, its just a very variable gene where a lot of breeders have bred it towards more of the hairless side, it can get really dense and is just down to selective breeding rather than molting out fur.
> 
> A couple of the angora may be silver and I think a few of the grey ones with dark eyes are lilac (blue + chocolate). Think I see a dove or two in there (I think the one looking at the camera in the second last pic is for example) as well as a blue in the bottom left of the last pic.


Don't lilac mice have ruby eyes? Source: http://www.afrma.org/miceself.htm


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## Cheshire Gleam (Aug 15, 2016)

Depends on your location. In the states, lilacs have pink eyes and doves have black. In the UK, doves have pink eyes and lilacs do not.


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