# non standard coat agouti



## nanette37 (Feb 1, 2010)

does anyone have a picture of a long haired/rex/texel/ect agouti? just likethe regular agouti. i dont think i have ever seen one and i think it sounds like it would be a pretty awesome mouse. anyone have any pics of one to share? thanksssss


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Agouti is best in standard (or satin) because it doesn't mess up the ticking. The ticking is an area that's hard to get right on any agouti/chinchilla/cinnamon (and related varieties) so anybody trying to improve the variety usually stays away from introducing additional complicating factors (such as rex or angora) into the mix.

I'd guess that the only angora or rex agoutis you'd find would be poor examples anyway since they'd be petstore-derived and more or less happened accidentally.


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## nanette37 (Feb 1, 2010)

so there arent really any show agoutis that arent standard?


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## MarlaAlVutha (Nov 7, 2009)

Agouti is one of my favorite colors and even if it does not "show well" I love it in all coat varieties. 
Please excuse the poor quality of some of these photos.









This is one of my agouti fuzzy bucks.









Agouti satin doe.









2 Agouti Caracul bucks and a Standard doe

















My Agouti Longhaird Fuzzy doe









My Agouti Fuzzy doe

I have had quite a few people tell me that while my "fancy" agoutis are not perfect they are coming along quite nicely. I will be getting a couple real nice agoutis soon and the breeder wants me to breed them to my "fancies" cause they want a few (Been bugging me for months for a longhaired fuzzy!)

*edited to fix the pictures*


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## nanette37 (Feb 1, 2010)

wow those caracul ones look pretty sweet. and the fuzzy ones too. i love how agoutis look and they do look nice in other coats even if they dont show well. im just a breeder for pets and i thought i would try to breed some long hair satin ones. along with other long hair satins. your mice sure are pretty! thanks for the pics


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## MarlaAlVutha (Nov 7, 2009)

I would absolutely love to see your longhaird satins when you breed them! Please keep me updated. I will be breeding my satin doe to a non agouti longhaird satin buck. I cant wait to see what I get in a couple generations!


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## WoodWitch (Oct 18, 2009)

I don't know why, but I really find Fuzzy mice cute. I love em!


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

nanette37 said:


> so there arent really any show agoutis that arent standard?


Not any good ones, no. They're all pet-typed and/or have very serious faults like the ones you see in this thread. I don't know any respectable show breeder who would try to breed rex agouti or angora agouti, etc. From a show standpoint, it's just not worth it when other self varieties (such as PEW or champagne) make much better examples of the non-standard coat types. Of course if your goal is only for pets, that doesn't pose problem at all. 



MarlaAlVutha said:


> Agouti is one of my favorite colors and even if it does not "show well" I love it in all coat varieties.


Maybe you've misunderstood. Agouti does "show well," but only in standard/satin coats. In the past it has won top honors (including BIS) at the NMC, AFRMA, and other clubs, but it has always been in standard coat, for good reason.


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## nanette37 (Feb 1, 2010)

MarlaAlVutha said:


> I would absolutely love to see your longhaird satins when you breed them! Please keep me updated. I will be breeding my satin doe to a non agouti longhaird satin buck. I cant wait to see what I get in a couple generations!


well its gonna take me a few generations to get them but i'll post pics when i do! and i'd love to see pics of that litter when you do breed them!



Jack Garcia said:


> Not any good ones, no. They're all pet-typed and/or have very serious faults like the ones you see in this thread. I don't know any respectable show breeder who would try to breed rex agouti or angora agouti, etc. From a show standpoint, it's just not worth it when other self varieties (such as PEW or champagne) make much better examples of the non-standard coat types. Of course if your goal is only for pets, that doesn't pose problem at all.


haha as much as i'd love to breed for show i cant until im older and dont live with my parents  :lol: (and can afford to ship!). so i just breed for pets and get my mice at a reptile store. since i wanted a long haired mouse so bad i had to get one out of the hopper bin and she was so young! i guess thats the price for buying feeders. but there arent any breeders within 200 miles of me haha. well even if non standard agoutis dont show well, they still look kinda cool for pets


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yep, they make as great a pet as any other variety. 

In about a year (hopefully) I might be coming through Arizona. I'll gladly train mice if I can. Just keep in touch.


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## nanette37 (Feb 1, 2010)

alright well great! hopefully by then i'll be able to breed more mice!


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## MarlaAlVutha (Nov 7, 2009)

Jack Garcia said:


> Not any good ones, no. They're all pet-typed and/or have very serious faults like the ones you see in this thread. I don't know any respectable show breeder who would try to breed rex agouti or angora agouti, etc.


And that is you OPINION. 
I know that my mice have some faults, I am personally working to improve the faults that they do have.



Jack Garcia said:


> From a show standpoint, it's just not worth it when other self varieties (such as PEW or champagne) make much better examples of the non-standard coat types. Of course if your goal is only for pets, that doesn't pose problem at all.


If no one ever "thought outside of the box" then we would not have half of the varietes standardized that we do have.



Jack Garcia said:


> MarlaAlVutha said:
> 
> 
> > Agouti is one of my favorite colors and even if it does not "show well" I love it in all coat varieties.
> ...


No I understood you perfectly and still stand by my original statement.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

First off, relax! 

If you disagree with anybody's opinion you're free to say why. That's what makes this forum so awesome (among other things).

When somebody points out the faults in any individual type of mouse you've posted pictures of or asked questions about, please don't take it personally. Everybody's mice have faults of some sort and if they weren't mentioned, we'd never make any progress. I know you're interested in showing with your new club. If you were breeding for pets-only, it would be a different matter. The phrase "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" comes to mind! lol It applies to anybody (including me and you) who is involved with the club scene and formal showing of any animal. That's what a competition is all about!

While on the subject, I must say that breeding for pets-only (like moustress and a couple others here do) is also a perfectly respectable path, but it's fundamentally different (not better or worse) from what breeders who show and compete do. You sometimes have to say which you're doing to avoid confusion (it seems a great many of us over here are show-breeders).


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Marla, I love your agoutis. I think that an argente aby would be really pretty too, with more contrast between the orange and the blue. Is it possible to have long haired abys? (Or maybe it's desirable and I just don't have a clue)

Some of my best meeces were agoutis, and it's one of those colors that I consider to be a mousery basic for a breeder. I had a stunning long haired agouti tan that is still one of the prettiest meeces I have ever had. I love agoutis so much that I revived one of my current mousies when it had a seizure and died in my hands; very tiny action with the index finger on the strnum and one little puff of breath into the snout. Shakey carries tricolour, which includes a gene called 'shakey', so I had an odd assortment of seizure-related happenings in that line. I've seen Shakey in total rigidity, stumbling sideways, circling, quivering. Of course, I'd never breed a mouse that shows any of those symptoms.

I've loved agoutis since I was a little girl and used to lay on my belly in the grainery watching the wild mousies.


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

moustress said:


> Is it possible to have long haired abys? (Or maybe it's desirable and I just don't have a clue)


It's possible, but it's not desirable. I know a lady who recently had abysinnian/rosette mice imported from The Netherlands and bred her mice with angora/longhair and may have lost the abysinnian/rosette in the process, because in (some) mice who are both rosette and angora, you can't tell the difference but it depends in large measure on the quality of rosettes you're starting out with. The same is true for many rex (Re/*) rosettes. Speaking in general, and from a proper show standpoint, coat types are best kept separate. If you're busy combining angora and caracul and rosette and rex and fuzzy and satin, you very easily lose sight of achieving/maintaining good type, and many of those coat combinations "cancel out" each other anyway. This is why almost all winning mice are standard (or satin).

Ask anybody who works toward type: it's _much_ harder to achieve or maintain overall good type than it is to introduce various coat textures, which is why a lot of people would rather work with various coat types at the expense of conformation and type--it's simply _easier_.

But again, if you're only breeding for pets, you can breed whatever you want without regard to any club's show standards. And I agree with you that all the agoutis Brenda posted are very cute, adorable even.


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

As I mentioned on another thread, I have seen pictures of some long haired abys from Europe that were stunning, with big fans of long wispy hair where the ridges were and clearly visible swirly rosettes. One mouse I saw had big fluffy 'eyebrows' where there were long haired rosettes over his eyes. These long haired abyssinian mice were absolutely beautiful, and they were big and typey as well. Kudos to the amazing person that made those mice happen with their hard work and careful breeding.

The problem with long haired abys comes from the fact that when you breed an aby with anything non-aby, it takes generations to get the rosettes back properly. In outcrosses from abyssinian to typey show mice, the only way you can tell the resulting abys are abys at all was because of the zipper rosette on the belly, nothing showed on the rumps at all. I can see the aby gene would be easy to lose in a long haired line, because the belly rosette would be hard to see. Also, in the UK our long haireds are very poor compared to some I've seen from other countries. But, once you've put years of work into them, they look fantastic. ANY variety can be improved to a showable standard, it just takes work and dedication, sometimes over years.

Sarah xxx


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

SarahY said:


> As I mentioned on another thread, I have seen pictures of some long haired abys from Europe that were stunning, with big fans of long wispy hair where the ridges were and clearly visible swirly rosettes. One mouse I saw had big fluffy 'eyebrows' where there were long haired rosettes over his eyes. These long haired abyssinian mice were absolutely beautiful, and they were big and typey as well. Kudos to the amazing person that made those mice happen with their hard work and careful breeding.


Kudos indeed! 

Do you know if this breeder stayed with only a couple varieties over the years that it took to get there? That would be my bet.


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## MarlaAlVutha (Nov 7, 2009)

moustress said:


> Marla, I love your agoutis.


Thank you Mousetress. I am only just starting my second generation with them, so I know I have a ways to go with where I want them to be.



moustress said:


> I had a stunning long haired agouti tan that is still one of the prettiest meeces I have ever had.


That is one color I definately want to work with. I am working on trying to get better color on my tan mice currently, and once I have my agoutis where I want them that will definately be a project for me. But I love anything tan *laughs*. The only color I have seen in tan that I dont care for is blue.



moustress said:


> Of course, I'd never breed a mouse that shows any of those symptoms.


*nods* I have had my share of unbreedable critters. When I breed I do cull my litter down, but I wont cull older mice unless the problem is just beyond what I can take care of. My sister and I are thinking about building our own cage, a nice large one with lots of levels and things to do and calling it the "Retirement Village" of "Sunny Acres" or something like that for our older retired from breeding mice and our cripples *laughs*. One day I will have to take some video of my rat Tika. She was a rescue from a pet store and has a permanant head tilt. She came to us pregnant and had the most aweseome litter of agouties, all fat and roly polly. We adopted all of them out and none so far have exhibited any head tilt or other health related issues. Tika is out most active and "entertaining" rat.



moustress said:


> I've loved agoutis since I was a little girl and used to lay on my belly in the grainery watching the wild mousies.


I think I fell in love witht he agouti color when I was a kid and my dad brought me a litter of baby wild bunnies. The grounds keeper ran over their burrow and killed the mother with his lawn mower. My dad brought me the bunnies and told me that more than likely they would die. He helped me nurse them untill they were strong enough to eat and out of 4 we only lost one. We lived in a place that did not allow pets so we took them to a childrens center that worked with handicapped kids. They had this petting zoo type thing for the kids with sheep, ponies, and such and the rabbits fit right in. They never acted wild, I am guessing because they were so young when we got them.

Whenever I see the baby agoutis they kind remind me of those rabbits and my dad.


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## MarlaAlVutha (Nov 7, 2009)

SarahY said:


> As I mentioned on another thread, I have seen pictures of some long haired abys from Europe that were stunning, with big fans of long wispy hair where the ridges were and clearly visible swirly rosettes. One mouse I saw had big fluffy 'eyebrows' where there were long haired rosettes over his eyes. These long haired abyssinian mice were absolutely beautiful, and they were big and typey as well. Kudos to the amazing person that made those mice happen with their hard work and careful breeding.


Wow I bet that was an amzing looking mouse! Do you by chance still have a link? I would love to see it! *laughs* Almost sounds like a fantasy creature.


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## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

My father was a volunteer docent for a wildlife preserve near where we lived and he brought home a bunch of different critters to rehabilitate or raise for release. Squirrels, racoons, and even a magpieare the most memorable. I was fond of catching and releasing all sorts of critters including a horned beetle that I kept for about two months. Some of the hognose snakes on the back lot of our property were caught and handled by me several times a week after I found their burrows. and I think the only risky thing my brother and i did along that line was bringing home a woodchuck that we saw run into a hollow log; my brother watched the log and I got a gunny sack. We upended the woodie into it and brought it home, and still had all ten of our fingers intact. It chewed through the quarter inch steel mesh of the rabbit hutch we put it in in about five minutes, the only thing that gave our story any credence in our fathers eyes.


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