# Seeking Help Figuring Out A Health Issue( Thin, sneezy)



## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't usually do this, but I'd like to Pick a few brains if it's okay.
My best friend has started to breed mice for his reptiles.
It's been about a year and he's been able to be successful so far. 
Pet store mice originally, but all in-house now.

He doesn't want to join the forums so I told him I would ask around.

His colony started out healthy.
Shiny coats and what not, but he started to tell me a few weeks ago about declining health.
Big robust mice would over the course of a few days or hours (Depending on the mouse)
become little bags of bones. They got gooey eyed, puffy cheeked and cold.
He said he's had some hair thinning, that the vet chalked up to too much protein.
He took them in for what he thought was a respiratory illness, but the same vet told him it was allergies.

I've been sort of mentoring him long distance.(More like giving him advice when needed)
So I know he has them on aspen and a oat rich diet.
I couldn't figure out why the vet told him they had too much protein considering the almost all oat diet he put them on for allergies. All his water bottles are working.
But no matter what he does, they get thing, raspy and cold.

It's pretty bad from what I understand. He's lost nearly all of his mice and the vet can't seem to tell him why.

I guess, my long winded question would be, does anyone have experience with that set of symptoms? If not does anyone know a good place to look for a vet? He's pretty mad.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Have they been treated for parasites?


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

I have heard of this some years back, with pet store mice. Not this forum, or I could pull up links. However, none that I recall said they were fine for a year, and then it started up. Max was about 6 months. Two(I think?) different vets concluded it was some virus or 'syndrome' (name I can't remember), but it killed all of the various peoples mice, one by one, within hours for each mouse. Wasn't diagnosed as any sort of URI.

So, whatever course of treatment that was proscribed, didn't appear to help. These were pet mice people, and they went back to the vet for each and every mouse. I hope whatever he's dealing with isn't whatever that was.

He could rule out allergies, if he put them on straight cooked oats, and flat white paper towels for 1-2 weeks. Has he fully done the whole parasite treatment, with Ivermectin? That one gets both internal, and external. I can imagine he'd be mad. 

At this point... other than trying the above, and whisking off to QT those who even hint at the symptoms (or share cage with those who do), then culling immediately any who progress... which I'm sure you may have already advised...

I'm hoping you get a good local vet recommendation for him.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I've recommended my vet for him, but it's a good two hour drive.
I asked, he says he has used the ivermectin.
He's treated them with fungal powders/creams too when that failed.

He called me last night too.
Seems as though they now have bloating and diarrhea 
that's pretty severe for a few hours and then vanishes.

It all sounds very strange.
I think, now that you mention it, I had heard something similar a while back.
I've suggested he considers starting from scratch(and after decontaminating his home/car)
if treatment doesn't help.
He's down to about ten of them from thirty now.

I really hope my vet can help him figure out what it is at least.


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

Erm.  Has he considered that one of his food sources might have come in contact with some sort of poison? Probably before he bought it? At this point with bloat and such, if I were him I would get steel cut oats, from a human food store. Probably bulk US grown organic, just so I could be a tiny bit more sure that the crop at no point would have legally been treated with poisons. Cook or soak those for easier digestion, and do the paper towel thing. Just on the off chance something he's got for food, or bedding, could have been poisoned.

Dearly hope he gets some of them to your vet in time to know what the issue is. Starting over from scratch is mostly like the best eventual course, but not until he knows what happened. Otherwise he spends another year, vested in the new batch, worrying.


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks for all of the tips.
I'll pass them onto him and I guess update this if he figures out what it is.


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## ThatCertainGlow (Jun 23, 2012)

I apologize for resurrecting this thread, but I think at least my thoughts on the matter were in the wrong direction. I'd rather not leave this for someone later to read and think it might only be normal problems. Did he find out what it was?

I'm going to retract everything I said about diet, and change the guess to a rodent virus. I've been trying to track down specifics on various mouse illnesses, that don't respond to antibiotics, and I recalled this thread. What I've been reading falls right in line with the devastation and symptoms, all of them, that he described. Most everything indicates that these viruses are highly contagious, but can be sort of recovered from, with a hard lockdown in QT, and culling. I say sort of, because the percentage that live through are not really encouraging.

Including the below, because I would have loved to find this already collected for me. Although, I know some people hate links, and they do tend to break on you, years later, eventually. (More apologies.  Really hoping the only people who see this are interested in the subject...)

In case anyone is interested in further reading, or quickly handing it all off to the mouse indoctrinated vet, if you are actually having the problem already in your stock. (Although a vet could get access to better, more current articles, this might give them an idea of where to start researching, and why, rather than you saying "could this be a virus?".) Obviously the reception to client provided information would wildly depend on the vet, and probably how busy they were in general. (Ask them first.):

Those who went through a similar issue, on this forum, and came out with a few healthy mice. Some references to starting over from scratch being easier.:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13943&start=10
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2178
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5330

Strain susceptibility:
http://iai.asm.org/content/19/1/123.full.pdf
http://ajplung.physiology.org/content/289/5/L777.long

Common virus in the US:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14199718
http://ratguide.com/health/viruses/sendai_virus_sv.php
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/mice/health6.html

Eradication:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sendai_virus 
Shortest recommendations I've seen is no breeding, no symptomatic, and no un-weaned mice, for 2 weeks, preferably 3-4. I don't know exactly why the extra weeks past the initial two. (Sendai, being the most mouse common of the flu-like viruses.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6258946 (I only seem to be able to link the abstract of this, so no details.  )
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6291958 (Another abstract, that didn't have good results, but no details to find out why.)
http://www.criver.com/SiteCollectionDoc ... _Virus.pdf (Burn-out or starting over, with starting over being the higher recommendation.)

Surfaces:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2156469
http://www.flu.gov/planning-preparednes ... dance.html

The most extensive time frame I've seen yet on virus contagions, but without any sources listed, unfortunately:
http://www.coverattery.com/articles/quarantine.htm (This is saying the viruses remain active for many months, no matter your QT method. Although, this is about rats. I'd be appreciative to read anything backing that up, in detail. Especially if it does, or does not, relate to mice. PMed links would be fine.)
Although mice are not really easy to involve in one of the mentioned viruses: http://iai.asm.org/content/18/3/823.full.pdf

Not the posted symptoms, but including it for virus coverage:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10766&start=0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603949/

Outdated, and not inclusive of all symptoms of the illnesses, but an easy to read listing of the various viruses:
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/ANZCCART/pub ... _2Arch.pdf


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## Shadowrunner (Sep 26, 2011)

I also apologize for bringing it back up after having a few weeks to fester, but holy moly.

The third link in, the sendai one. 
(I haven't read it all yet, but I'm going to)

I just called him.
He's been having problems with does not conceiving after being "cured" and okay for a while,
If they do, the babies appear fine until weaning age.
Then only a small percentage of his pups make it to adulthood.
We're talking 2-3 out of 14. Culling doesn't help, bulking the diet doesn't help.
Even if the does are healthy, the pups struggle.

that thread mentioned the same sort of symptoms. 
I think we have a lead. 
He took them to the vet, and they had no idea what was going on. 
So no, he never found out what it was, and there's been a few times where he calls me and
tells me joyfully that it's gone, only to loose several of them the next week. 
It's really sad.
He's seriously considering giving up for a year or two and starting over again.

I will say this though.
I've gotten a good look at one of the sickies, 
during a weekend I knew I would have away from home, and have the ability to wash and clean my clothes and person.

The doe. She was in really, really bad shape.
All it took to perk her up was some electrolytes, subcutaneous fluids, and a gentle heating pad.

I took my cat to the vet about a week ago, she was expressing very similar symptoms.
On her, they said she had a raging infection somewhere, was really dehydrated and her kidneys were failing. All in a span of a day, and the deep decline after a few hours.
I know it can't be the same bug, but it's really unnerving. 
I'm really, horribly curious at this point.

I should also mention, he's found a wild mouse in the house. I told him to check for more, seeing as all of his mice are his and have been since a year ago, but those wilds could have brought something nasty in with them, if they've been lurking around.


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