# is corn not good for mice?



## Erica

I took some time last night to read moutress's journal, and while reading through it noted that she picks out the corn in her mouse food. Also, when I asked the question of what everyone else feeds their mice, the response had NO corn in it. The food that I currently feed my mice has whole corn kernels in it, and the first thing they pick out is the corn, eat the very tip of it, and let the rest sit, to be cleaned out with their cage cleaning. So, is corn no good for them, or does no one use it because it is a waste of money, when all they eat is the "heart" of the kernel?


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## moustress

I will field this question since I was the one who raised it most recently.

Now, bear in mind that I keep a large mousery, occasionally with a couple of dozen dozen mousies at one time, so my story is a little more significant than for someone who keeps only ten meeces.

I've been breeding meeces for about 12 years now. I began to go to a feed mill quite early on in order to save money and buy from open bins, picking out how much of what I wanted. I suplemented the grains and seeds with dry catfood, the same stuff I fed my kitties. they absolutely lived the kitty kibble, which contained corn, as does most dry animal food. They would usually leave the corn pretty much untouched, so I stopped buying it. I noticed about a few months later that I was having less of a problem with tumors, and I wondered about that. I decided to stop using the dry cat food on them, and within about a year, I had no incidence of cancerous tumors, not a single one, among the meeces born since I removed the corn from the diet.

Some breeders will tell you that most of the show typey meeces have had the tendency for cancerous tumors bred out their gene pools. I think that's wonderful! Here in Mineapolis, Minnesota I'd have to travel 500 miles to get a hold of that kind of show stock; wither that or have some flown in from the East Coast or the West Coast. I did that once, and that's another story for another time.

Over the fall and early winter this year I had a handful of tumors show up in my mousery once again. I decided to look more closely at the grain I was getting in 50 lb. bags. I was used to seeing an occasional kernel of corn show up, and I'd pick it out and trash it, or feed it to the squirrels in our yard. when I started sifting through the grain, I found many smaller pieces of corn that I hadn't noticed, especially in a couple of the bags. I returned them for cleaner grain. 'since then, I hand sort all my grain in order to remove every paritcle of corn and any other junk that might show up. My mousery is once again completely corn-free and tumor free.

Other high fat seeds, notably sunflower seeds and peanuts can also cause tumors and other health problems. I have stopped using them as rodent food. Instead, I use safflower seeds and millet in very small quantities. Of course, I also give my darlings all kinds of other things from time to time, as they enjoy variety in their diet much as we do.

Almost every dry animal chow produced contains corn and corn by products. It's gotten easier in the last five years or so to get corn free chow, and I get puppy chow (Professional Brand). It's pricey, but a five pound bag lasts for about a half a year as it's only used as a supplement, one chunk per mouse several times a week, and one chunk every day to breeding mousies and nuring mother, and very young meeces. Their diet is about 80% whole wheat and oats.

I'm not sure if cooking removes the risk, or if other colors of corn are better. The explanation of how it works is that yellow corn combines with digestive juices to form a carcinogenic substance. (I think it's nitrosamines) I cannot find the site I read this on 8 or 9 years ago, but I have had confirmation from other breeders.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all could buy our meeces from show breeders and have them flown in safety and comfort? I tried that, and it was an unqualified nightmare. any meeces I've gotten since then have been hand delivered by a relay of several breeders who went to a show a thousand miles away. I drove 600 miles roundtrip from Minneapolis to Janesville to get my tris, and I considered that well worth the cost.
I can only tell you what I see.


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## SarahY

It might be worth mentioning that the 'corn' discussed is maize, not sweetcorn. I know some people get confused by this.

Sarah xxx


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## moustress

Sweetcorn is the same plant (maize); it's just a variety selected to be sweet when the corn is in the 'milk' stage before the kernels harden.


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## Erica

That makes a lot of sense to me. I had a bunny, my first of hundreds, that I didn't know alot about, and thinking I was doing her a favor, I bought her the food that has corn and nuts and seeds in it. She ended up with a tumor behind her left front leg. I also had a turkey that developed fat lumps, so severe she couldn't walk for several weeks, because of corn. I raised the question of what everyone else feeds their mice, because I am trying to find a less expensive ( i pay $5.00 for 3 pounds) way to feed them. I currently have about 58 mice, so bulk quantites would be much better for me. Most of them are still babies or young adults at this time, and most will be fed off soon, but I have about 27 that will be kept. Thank you for your input, I will have to change what I feed them.


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## moustress

I'm not sure if corn does the same thing with rabbits. It's just that so many animals have problems digesting it properly. We had a family dog, a boxer named Bubba, and he had the most awful gas whenever we tried feeding him dogfood with corn in it. Of course, it's commonly used to fatten up swine and other animals, and those kinds of livestock are not destined to survive long at all. It's true, however, that corn has been implicated indirectly in causing human health to suffer, specifically corn based sweeteners. From my study of anthropology and archaeolgy, I know that reliance on corn as the major source of nutritition is suspected to be the cause of the failure and collapse of the mid-American native culture an about 800 to 900 AD.

I wonder about my heavy popcorn habit...I could live on the stuff...*sigh*


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## Yelena

I've had two hamsters, the first didnt eat corn the second did and he had to be put down due to a massive tumor.

Kinda makes sense that it wouldnt be good for them to eat as humans struggle to digest corn as it is and our stomachs are massive in comparrison


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## Jemma

Has there been any proper research conducted on this? I searched online and I couldn't see anything, though I'm not exactly the academic type and it might have been staring me in the face :lol: So I had a quick check and it seems like the popular lab blocks tend to contain ground corn. I'd have thought scientists would be the first group of people to ditch an ingredient if there was a chance it might have a negative effect and skew their results?

I make my own mouse food up from straights so it'd be easy to cut maize from their mix but they do seem to like it. They go daft for the endy bits of our corn-on-the-cob too.


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## Yelena

is that fresh corn on the cob?

Thats my fave food EVER so if theres no really reason for them not to eat it I may have to share with the lads


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## Jemma

Yep - I eat corn on the cob without any butter or seasoning so I let the mice pick it clean, once I'm done with it. Usually there isn't much left by the time they get it but it's something novel for them anyway :] Now I'm in two minds about sharing though!


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## Rhasputin

The majority of foods an american eats in the united states, have corn in them.

Bread, candy, soda, baked goods, cereals, chips, nearly ALL meats, corn products (of course!), ice cream, pasta, sauces (ketchup too!), and not to mention anything fried in corn oil. 

just a fun fact... xP


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## moustress

Well, that's overstating things, I think. Many foods use corn sweeteners or modified corn starch. Meat is often from corn fed sources, but the meat itself does not contain corn. Neither does pasta which is made of wheat. All the foods you mention can be found in many brands and one can always find brands that don't contain corn products. Cereals and chips rarely have corn unless they are corn chips or cereal. Most baked goods do not. Ice cream rarely does. The more processed the food is the more likely it is to contain corn products.

So, bread, candy, soda (an especially troublesome example). yes they often do, but the rest not so much. And many folks use canola oil, peanut oil, olive oil, or sunflower oil for cooking. Fast food doesn't use corn oil beause it breaks down too quickly at high temps.

In any case, I'm not sure we're talking about corn sweetener or corn oil as a culprit. For all I know, it sould be some other part of the kernel that contains the carcinogenic component. I'd look to the least digestible portions like the hull of the kernel, or the germ.

You do realize that we are talking about maize, not all types of grain, right? And not cooked? Cooking may change the chemistry in such a way as to reduce or eliminate whatever component might cause the carcinogenic reaction. Like I said before, I sure hope cooking does it for humans, because I absolutely adore popcorn. (I make the best kettle corn in the known universe.)


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## Jemma

I did a bit more digging and it seems that corn can be contaminated with mycotoxins, which are what's carcinogenic.

Rats are so sensitive to it that the levels deemed acceptable in human and pet grade food (the acceptable limit in livestock food is much, much higher) could potentially still be dangerous to them. I don't know if that's based on an unrealistic situation where rats are fed only corn or if the damage is cumulative... or something else completely. Enough of it can cause kidney, liver and colon cancer in both rats and humans. I'm kicking myself for not remembering this because I read a lot about aflatoxin contamination in peanuts, for my own sake, not too long ago!

The other problem one is fumonisin, which causes liver cancer in rats. Because scientists apparently aren't sure whether it's carcinogenic in humans, it's not regulated, although there are guidelines as to how much is acceptable.

So there you go! The information I read is American and rat related so I don't know exactly how relevant it is to British mouse fanciers. I didn't bother checking because I couldn't find information on how sensitive mice are to it, so there didn't seem much point. Maybe someone who's more sciencey-minded could look in to it.


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## Yelena

I guess that means that as long as your sensible with it theres no real risks.

TBH it wouldnt surprise me if most foods where like this for mice as their rather small and a tad delicate in the food area.

I wont be giving them the hard stuff you get in some dry mix but they can share the occasional cooked bit with me


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## moustress

Peanuts are notorious for contamination with various mycoplamas, aflatoxin in one of them. And the bird seed mix some folks like to use on their rodents is really pretty awful. Some of the ingredients give up their moisture to the peanuts and sunflower seeds, which become soft and then rancid with mold and what have you. The standards for pet foods are too low in many cases, and I refuse to give my mousies something that I wouldn't eat my self. Musty, moldy smelling grain does not meet my standards, so I open the bag at the feed mill to get a good whiff, since it's a bit of a drive (60 mi. each way) and I buy about 500-600 lbs. total each trip I make. I no longer by mixed seed and grain at all. Just 10 pound bags of safflower and millet, and occasionally I get organic sunflowers or peanuts as a special treat which is given as an inducement to come into The Hand. Though dried bread seems to work equally well for that. I think Mus mus domesticus evolved as it did because of humans inventing bread, I mean, who can resist the aroma of fresh bread!? Meeces would live quite well, for the most part, on a diet of nothing but bread and the occasional cricket or other bug.


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## BecBastin

I've been reading on what's good and bad for feeding mice and come across this corn thing a few times- are you saying maize is ok? The food that I have for my does is a mixed bag and the ingredients include flaked maize. If there are things that can be removed to prolong their health I will do that. Although from having a read I think once I've used this bag up I may try making my own mix as you can really make sure no nasty components.


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## moustress

Maize is just another name for corn.


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## Rhasputin

I prefer to not use corn in my feed for 2 reasons.
1: Studies showing links between GMO corn (90% of the US corn supply) and sterility, and tumor growth in mice.
2: Dried corn can often contain a mold which is deadly to mice if eaten.


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## BecBastin

I will pick them out and then start doing homemade- although from what I can see the girls are ignoring them anyway!


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## Laigaie

As an aside, we're a combination of American and European breeders, largely, and there's a linguistic distinction between the two. "Corn" can mean either maize or wheat. In some places, they even use the word for barley or oats. We mean maize. The yellow stuff that's eaten on a cob. Wheat is totally a good thing, and entirely appropriate for mouse diets, as are barley and oats.


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## Stina

> Dried corn can often contain a mold which is deadly to mice if eaten.


That's the mycotoxins.

I personally feed a diet made largely of Harlan Teklad/Native Earth lab blocks, which are made largely of corn.......however Harlan tests EVERY batch of corn they use for mycotoxins. Many breeders and a good number labs across the country use Harlan blocks, either exclusively or in a mix.


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## jadeguppy

Stina said:


> I personally feed a diet made largely of Harlan Teklad/Native Earth lab blocks, which are made largely of corn.......however Harlan tests EVERY batch of corn they use for mycotoxins. Many breeders and a good number labs across the country use Harlan blocks, either exclusively or in a mix.


Ditto. It is healthy, takes the guess work out of providing a good diet, the mice like it, and is very easy to feed. I try not to make things more complicated than they need to be.


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## Wight Isle Stud

the hard yellow maize is called dog tooth maize in my area. its far to hard for the mice to eat, except the soft but, hence they leave it. What you do is soak it in water for afew hours and they will eat all of it. I have about 500 mice all show stock , and have not had a tumour in well over a year. There are only about 5 basic cereals grown world wide, all of of which can be fed safely to mice. If the cereal has been dried properly after harvesting ready for storage, it will contain none of the poisons mentioned.


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## Mark

BecBastin said:


> I will pick them out and then start doing homemade- although from what I can see the girls are ignoring them anyway!


Theyve never been fed it here thats probably why haha, i should of given you some of there food really.


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## SarahY

Maize (yellow corn) is GOOD for mice! It contains folate, which is good for preventing birth defects, and is a valuable source of the best kind of hind-gut fibre, which keeps their intestines **** and span.

ANY food will cause nasty problems if it's allowed to go mouldy, I honestly have no idea how only maize managed to get such a bad name from it!


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## Laigaie

I have nothing against corn, personally, and it was in my rat mix. They all had lovely shiny coats, and were exceptionally healthy. One of my third-gen rat boys hit three years just before he died. That said, my mice refuse to eat it, so I stopped bothering to include it in my mouse mix.


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## Stina

Corn can harbor the mold that produces mycotoxins without showing an signs of it.....that is the issue. There can be mycotoxins present and you would have no idea looking at it


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## Rhasputin

SarahY said:


> Maize (yellow corn) is GOOD for mice! It contains folate, which is good for preventing birth defects, and is a valuable source of the best kind of hind-gut fibre, which keeps their intestines **** and span.
> 
> ANY food will cause nasty problems if it's allowed to go mouldy, I honestly have no idea how only maize managed to get such a bad name from it!


The corn supply in the UK, so my knowledge, isn't mostly GMO corn from monsanto. 
THAT specific corn makes up the vast majority of corn in the US, and has links to many health problems in any species, including mice and humans.

It's a wonder it's legal.


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## Stina

If you look at anything the right way or manipulate a study the right way.....you can link anything to just about any health problem.


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## Rhasputin

I just love eating pesticides.


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## moustress

There 's a lot of info online about the Monsanto GM corn that produces botulin toxin to kill pests. Apparently the toxin can persist in harvested corn, and damage internal organs, cause reproductive problems, congenital deformities and fetal death. I should have clipped a couple of references, but the info is out there.

I had originally heard, about nine years ago, that there's something in corn that reacts with digestives fluids to produce nitrosmines, which can be carcinogenic. My mousies didn't eat the corn that was in their mix, so I stopped buying it, and noticed, within about a year, that there was a LOT fewer mammary tumors. Then I decided to switch to corn free kibble, eliminating corn completely from the diet, and since then I have had very little problem with the tumors. I've seen maybe two or three cases in the last eight years, and I have a LOT of meeces.


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## Rhasputin

Not saying this is related to my diet not including GMO corn, necessarily. . .
BUT. . .

In my 3 years breeding and making my own mix, I've only had 2 tumors. And both were mice that were not bred by me, and were very old by the time they got the tumors.


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## Velvet_Meece

interesting thread, i'm scared of eating corn now and its my fav veg!!! lol

Sooo, whats the situation with frozen corn, if you cook it then give it to mice? would any part of being frozen then scorched eliminate these harmful chemicals?


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## Gill

In the UK, "corn" is the generic term for all cereals. The OED [Oxford English Dictionary] gives the definition as "A grain, seed, esp. of cereals: grain, also cereal plants while growing". Sweetcorn, or corn-on-the-cob, was originally known as Indian maize.

On a personal note, my Siamese mice aren't keen on most fruit and vegetables, but love (cooked) frozen sweetcorn. It hasn't done them any harm so far.


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## Velvet_Meece

Gill said:


> In the UK, "corn" is the generic term for all cereals. The OED [Oxford English Dictionary] gives the definition as "A grain, seed, esp. of cereals: grain, also cereal plants while growing". Sweetcorn, or corn-on-the-cob, was originally known as Indian maize.
> 
> On a personal note, my Siamese mice aren't keen on most fruit and vegetables, but love (cooked) frozen sweetcorn. It hasn't done them any harm so far.


Yes i am aware, thats been repeated many a time in this thread.. but i am also aware the corn this thread is about is Corn on Cob/Sweetcorn type corn.


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## Gill

I've just had a look at DEFRA's website. As far as I can tell, all foodstuffs sold in the UK, for both human and animal consumption, are subject to very strict regulations. Allergens and other impurities have to be declared (which presumably includes carcinogenics).

My apologies, Velvet-Meece, the quote from the OED was a general point, and not aimed at you. I wouldn't be concerned about frozen sweecorn from a reputable company. As SarahY says, maize is good for mice. If you are worried about the possibility of tumors, try walnuts as an occasional treat. Research shews that breast, and other cancers in humans, can be helped by eating walnuts, and, as the trials for breast cancer were carried out on mice, it would suggest that mice also benefit.


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## moustress

Humans don;'t have the same digestive factors as meeces, so the digestive problem doesn't exist. There are problems with the high carbohydrate level in corn, and corn sweeteners have been fingered for several human health problems. You may notice, as well, that the less expensive dry pet foods contain a bunch of different corn ingredients in large quantities. For many dogs and cats, this can result in flatulence as a symptom of digestive distress. Why is corn in the dry food? It's cheap! And usually not high grade corn!

I avoid buying catfood for my cats that contains corn, and I remember all too well the whiff of the boxer farts from Purina dog chow with corn in it.


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## hlforumhl

does corn harm cats or squirrels?


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## hlforumhl

Is corn bad for squirrels and cats?


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## Rhasputin

In my opinion GMO corn is bad for everything.


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## moustress

Actually the corn I'm referring to is field corn, which is the type usually used as animal feed and processed to make corn products for human and animal use. Sweet corn is what you find as corn on the cob or canned corn; it's cooked before being eaten, which may be what makes the difference. I haven't tried feeding my meeces cooked corn, so I can't speak to that part.

I eat large amounts of popcorn, again, it's cooked, but I eat a lot of it and I don't think I have health problems from it. It think it's just some interaction between a meece's digestive system and raw dried field corn. It's made a big enough difference that I would not consider using it as a food for my meeces again.


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## MoonfallTheFox

GMO corn is bad, bad news. So is GMO Soy. There's a study around here somewhere about GMO soy and the effects it had on mice, rats, and hamsters- they grew HAIR in thier MOUTHS.

That said, I feed HT, which does have corn in it, but it's tested (as said elsewhere). Along with that, I give the occasional peice of this stuff- http://zamzowsonline.com/7419860920.html

I buy it for my starling, Angel, as it has the best protien ratio out there for her and the fact there's no corn is always a plus. She's a starling. She needs animal protien, not CORN. First ingredient is chicken. Perfect for her.

It also doesn't look like my mice will be harmed by eating it.

That aside, dried kernels, like the whole or cracked ones in many seed mixes, can grow deadly molds that kill rats and mice. I do not allow any of my rodents to eat them, and one of my rats is more than 2 and a half years old! Never a tumor in his life, the healthiest pet shop rat I've ever seen.

I personally do feed my mice/rats the occasional piece of cooked corn, and we have not had trouble, but this is VERY occasional.

So, sorry about the scattered post. Dry corn isn't worth the risk IMO, and I wish we could avoid GMO corn/soy, but the way society works right now, we can't. I feed as little of it as possible. Cooked seems safe, but if it's GMO there's still other problems, so it should only be occasional. The only exception to that in my opinion is HT, which is considered a great diet and I have had nothing but sucess with it.


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## hlforumhl

Does it say on the packages whether the corn is tested?


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## MoonfallTheFox

My packages aren't labelled. I buy from the crafty rat, who sells to me in 15 lb quantities. Big ziploc baggies.


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