# diferents sizes in the same litter..NEW PICS Complete litter



## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

I have a doe (pregnant in the fair animal before she came home). She were mum 2 days ago.

There were 9 babies, 3 were bigger than normal babies and 6 were smaller (very very small) than normal babies. Today only there are 7...

I never have seen this different size in the litter.

In this pic you see 3 babies, the baby with colour is 3.5 days older than the other two, that they are to the same litter...



















Any explication?? :|


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

That is weird. Sorry can I just confirm some things? The baby with colour is from a different litter or the same litter to the other two? And did you say the mother was from a fair? And you bought her pregnant?

Are the very smallest babies smaller than an average baby of their age?


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

Exactly. Baby with colour is from the other doe (Pepper) from the fair animal. They were pregnant before they came home.

Baby with colour is 3.5 days older than the other two.

I have given a lot of protein, but I don´t know what happened :/

Babies from the same litter are differents in size and colour. The bigger are dark pink, and the smaller are light pink :/


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

I think pale pink means they are anaemic (not getting enough iron) or not getting the nutrients they need. Do they have milk bellies? I suspect the reason the babies are really small is due to stress of the mother. living in a fairground when you are pregnant cant exactly be pleasant. Wait until you see what others have to say but I would cull the little ones. Maybe the big ones have a chance if they are getting fed.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

The rare thing is that the bigger babies are bigger than a normal baby with their age. When they born were very big, and the other very very small...

They have milk bellies than a normal baby...it´s very weird...


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

It is weird =S It sort of seems like the big babies have taken all the little babies nutrients whilst inside the womb but I don't know why that could have happened.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

I think so...but...I can´t explication...:/


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

For the good of the litter, the smallest need to be euthanized.

This is what would happen in any situation other than captivity, and babies that small and sickly _never_ make healthy adults.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

Ufff, I can not do that, I feel pain


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

I am afraid they will suffer more if you do not. Do you have a way to cull them?


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

No...I don´t have snake or any way to do that :'(


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

Well you do need to do it I am sorry. The babies will be in pain otherwise. If you request permission to join the culling section of the forum you can get instructions on how to do it.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Some talk about the way an animals uterus works, but simplified: Imagine a string of pearls. ( )( )( )( )( )( )( )( ) The murine uterus is more tube-like than anything, and as each egg is fertilized, they have to take up residence somewhere. Ideally, it looks like our string above. Each baby is equally spaced, and they're taking up all the total space. As they grow, they all have the same amount of space. Now, if, instead, some of those babies are closer together, and some are further apart, you get something more like this ()()()()()()( )( ). Those babies on the end have more space to grow in utero than the babies on the other end. They take up more resources, grow bigger, and then take more milk once they're born. The others have no chance.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

The tiny baby will struggle to survive, sadly.


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## SarahC (Oct 3, 2008)

Patry said:


> No...I don´t have snake or any way to do that :'(


culling is an entirely personal issue and you need not do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable.I expect nature will take it's course in any event.It's a very interesting litter.Post some more pictures as they develop or possibly fail to develop.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks for your explanation Laigaie  I now understand better what could have happened...

They cause me a lot of tenderness, but I don´t want to suffer for my selfishness 

I have to think carefully :'(


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

New pics....

Complete litter...


















Comparation between baby from Pepper´s litter (7 days today) and the other two, with 3 days...


















Only smalest babies









Milk belly


















Uff...


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

The littlest one really made me cry =(


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

Honestly, I would cull it. It's obviously not going to live, and it is probably going to die due to organ failure (malnutrition breaks down the body).


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

I will talk with my vet...I need a lot of advices :'((


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## tinyhartmouseries (Dec 30, 2010)

Are these varigated?? Some of the larger ones look to be. The small ones look like double varigated BEW's to me. They are malformed, anemic, and they are dying. They have no milk and are starving slowly. It may make you sad, it makes all of us sad, but they will die slowly if they are not euthanized quickly. It is kinder and more responsible to put aside your feelings and make sure they leave this world as comfortably as possible.

I am not hating on you or anyone, but if you are going to breed, you really need to have a culling method you can use, even if you only cull in emergencies. This qualifies as an emergency.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

I´m sad...very sad (


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Emma is right. They look double variegated to me, too. Double variegateds have zero chance of living.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

tinyhartmouseries said:


> Are these varigated?? Some of the larger ones look to be. The small ones look like double varigated BEW's to me.


ahh. that makes sense. i'm glad you caught that.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

Two of the four little ones are better, I see that they grow and are provided, they have milk belly always. Are the two little ones who worry me, that I don´t know what to do 

If I do, how to cull them?


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Patry, if you look in the culling forum, you'll see some very helpful discussions and information about humane methods. The little guys *won't* suffer if you decide to intervene. You're the one that will feel the sadness, but at least you understand why it's necessary. The mice have no understanding other than what they feel and are aware of in the moment, and they're fading away.  They just need you to help end this.

I know you'll find that the members are both practical yet compassionate, and will give you the support you need for this difficult task.

I'm so happy for you that two of the babies are doing well. I look forward to pics of their progress.


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## Pamplemousse (Apr 9, 2012)

Those runts need to go, for their own sake and the sake of their littermates.

I'm glad the others are doing better now.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

Two little babies had dead... :'(


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

well, now you know how long it takes for a neonate mouse to starve to death. it's a lot longer than most people realize.


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## PPVallhunds (Jul 26, 2010)

sys15 - i think they culled them as they posted in the culling forum about it.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

Sys15, I know you meant your comment as simply a practical observation, but I think it comes across as a bit harsh. She did the difficult deed, in spite of an entirely understandable aversion to it. That's commendable.


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

An anemic mouse isn't starving to death. They're failing to thrive.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

PPVallhunds said:


> sys15 - i think they culled them as they posted in the culling forum about it.


ah. i misunderstood, my mistake. i apologize.


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## sys15 (Nov 26, 2011)

MojoMouse said:


> Sys15, I know you meant your comment as simply a practical observation, but I think it comes across as a bit harsh. She did the difficult deed, in spite of an entirely understandable aversion to it. That's commendable.


heh. no, i was intending to be just a little bit mean. it seems i was in error on a number of levels (mode of death and reason for nonviability of double variegated mice). you'd think that'd teach me a lesson to either be nicer or keep quiet, but one's personality is a pretty ingrained trait, so it probably won't.


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## MojoMouse (Apr 20, 2012)

sys15 said:


> heh. no, i was intending to be just a little bit mean. it seems i was in error on a number of levels (mode of death and reason for nonviability of double variegated mice). you'd think that'd teach me a lesson to either be nicer or keep quiet, but one's personality is a pretty ingrained trait, so it probably won't.


You're refreshingly straightforward and forthright.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

This is very hard for me, I had never cull any animal, only in the vet, with anesthesia 

I keep an eye to small babies if they need be cull too...


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## SarahY (Nov 6, 2008)

You did the right thing Patry. I know it's not easy and it's certainly no fun, but it is necessary sometimes. Well done for doing the right thing xxx


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## AyJay658 (Jan 15, 2012)

Well done for doing what needed to be done Patry. You did the right thing and stopped the babies suffering more than they had to. And now you are prepared if anything like this happens again. Well done


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## Rhasputin (Feb 21, 2010)

You definitely did the right thing. Please let us know if you need some support, as we are all here for you to help you through every step of breeding mice.


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## Seafolly (Mar 13, 2012)

It feels horrible, I know. *hugs* But when it's something as straightforward as the babies are sickly, you must know you did the right thing. Even if it doesn't feel like it right now.


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## Frizzle (Oct 6, 2011)

*hug* like everyone says, it was the right thing to do.

The variety you're working with, Varigated, they will continue to produce more offspring like these (homozygous form). If culling is really hard for you to do, maybe you would want to look at a different variety that won't produce anemic young.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks for your encouragement 

Variegateds produce anemic young? I don´t know that...

I never had this variety, but in the fair animal I bought someones, and Snowy came pregnant


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## Laigaie (Mar 7, 2011)

Variegated is a dominant variety, and if both parents are variegated, some of the young will have two copies of the gene. When they have two, it causes anemia and the young die. About as many will be non-variegated, and half the litter will be variegated. If you want to avoid the anemic young, you can breed variegated mice to non-variegated mice, and have half variegateds and half non-variegated, with no anemic young.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

I thought it was like A^y, that was nonviable and and died in the womb.

Always learn something new


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

I thought it was like A^y, that was nonviable and died in the womb.

Always learn something new


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## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Ay/Ay mice die in the womb. W/W mice are born and die in the nest.


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## Patry (Sep 1, 2011)

Jack Garcia said:


> Ay/Ay mice die in the womb. W/W mice are born and die in the nest.


Ohh, I did´t know that


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