# how to breed siamese for stronger points?



## wowwy

So i have 2 female siamese mice and after their current litter grows up a few weeks later i want to try to breed them for stronger points. I mean dark points maybe like a blue point or a seal point siamese that would be really cool and i love the darker colors. So any advise would be great thank you


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## PPVallhunds

To darken seal points you can cross to blacks.

This very light girl
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... /pup-6.jpg

Put to a black produced this
http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... 0020-7.jpg

Not dark enough but darker than the mother, but it will take a few generatins to get them realy dark.


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## wowwy

thank you very much.


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## sys15

as a followup question - it is the selective breeding for strong pigmentation in show lines of black selfs that can improve siamese, correct? so, they'd have to be show or "good" blacks to be likely to improve a siamese line, no?


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## PPVallhunds

never realy thought about it, but i would think it would need to be a good dark black yes, but doesnt have to be a show winnnig black. I got my first black from heather (loganberry) ages ago and she resontly gave me another. The were/are deep black but cant be shown due to stray tan hairs.
Heres the second boy than im using now, Also turns out he carries siamese bonus  









but if you cant get ahold of one you could just be very selective and only keep the darkest siamese to breed from, it would take longer but you should get there in th eend.


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## PPVallhunds

tryed to edit my post to inclede this but cant

you will get improvment with non show quality blacks. but i would of thought the darker the black the better the results.

heres my first siamese girl
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... CF5352.jpg

I put her to an agouti and got a black buck, put him to her and got her daugeters
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... CF6427.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... CF6431.jpg

the blakc male was no where near show quality and fomr feeder stock and still made an improvment on the points and shading.

but if you cant get a black you could just be very slective on keeping darkest siames each time


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## sys15

thanks, ppvallhunds, it's great to see those comparison photos.


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## PPVallhunds

no problem, one of those daughters ying put to the first black i got from heather produced this
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... pup2-8.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... pup-13.jpg

sadly yang was not cut out to be a mother so never got any babies form her

Just had a siam baby born today from the current black buck


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## wowwy

thanks for all the info and the pics i absolutly love that black buck.
My Blue male did produce some blacks with my siamese female so can i breed him back to the female or would that not work?


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## wowwy

do the babies develope dark points or after a couple of weeks cause my siamese mothers has the rex babies and some are dark to light beige and that would be cool to have some with darker points cause i bred them to a blue. So when do the points start showing???


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## m137b

Depends on the line and temps. In the winter mine show points at 2-3 weeks, in the summer 3-4 weeks. But I've heard some say later than that.


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## PPVallhunds

wowwy said:


> thanks for all the info and the pics i absolutly love that black buck.
> My Blue male did produce some blacks with my siamese female so can i breed him back to the female or would that not work?


Yep it should make some improvment.



wowwy said:


> do the babies develope dark points or after a couple of weeks cause my siamese mothers has the rex babies and some are dark to light beige and that would be cool to have some with darker points cause i bred them to a blue. So when do the points start showing???


They will slowerly get there points in, Mine normaly take start around 3-4weeks. The darker babies should stay darker than the ligher babies. I waite untill 8 weeks to determin who has the best points/shading for breeding later on.

Also as my siamese have gotten older there shading seem to darken a bit.
Here one does as she ages, her body when form allmost white to a nicer shaded colour.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... CF6117.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... CF6427.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... 6540-4.jpg


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## wowwy

thats so cool i love the last pic. Some the the babies i can see there points darkening up i think there going to look awesome.


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## PPVallhunds

You know what you have to do now right? The most improtant part when breeding siamese??

YOU GOTTA POST PICS FOR US!


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## wowwy

Here is the first mum a satin










Here is the second a normal









A comparison of the color of the mum and babies


















I know this is kinda off topic but this proves how good fathers can be  








Sitting on the babies while the mum is away eating


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## PPVallhunds

they remind me of my first siamese :love1

Yeah dads are good with babies, if only they didnt rebreed straight away id leave them in to help out.


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## wowwy

I seroiusly agrree with you about the dad. Ok so i officially cleared it my dwarf hamster is not a good mom she had 4 more and was feeding them and stuff until like 4 days into it she gives up???? She did it like the last baby?? thank god i had a mum give birth the same day i put them in with her and i was like over the tank and she moved a baby, just so happened to be a dwarf so i put it back in the nest every thing is fine i hope. Breeding dwarf hamsters is i think out the window for me.


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## PPVallhunds

sorry to hear that, i tryed to breed winter white dwarf hampsters but sadly i think my boy must have been fireing blanks lol about a year and a half living with 2 females and no babies.


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## wowwy

Yea i had to some stuff for the mouse mum to except them. She would move her litter to a different corner and leave the other dwarfs in another corner. So i took out the mum and dad out and i took the 4 dwarfs and i took some bedding that was peed on and pooped on and i rubbed it on them all over. I put them back in then the mum and dad. She took about 15 minutes to sit on the litter and she couldnt tell the difference. When i put the baby dwarfs in they were very very cold cause i had the windows opens in another room. I closed the windows and turned off the fan and so i hope that they dont get completely cold from the mum not sitting on them. I hope every thing works out and she tottaly excepts them


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## wowwy

so none of the baby dwarfs have milk spotts and so i fed them a little kitten milk. And since they had no food in their tummies maybe they didnt have enough energy to look for a nipple. I really dont want them to die  but ill try anything i can. And so since i got a little milk on the baby dwarfs i put some on the other babies and the mom and dad i really hope she fosters them):


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## Muppet Ninja

I want to find a black mouse like that one but cant find one anywhere? If anyone can help let me know  thanks


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## Jack Garcia

Here are some of my Siamese mice:




























And as babies, they look like this:










I've never bred them on purpose (they're an unfortunate byproduct of my blacks) so their points need to be be darker and shaded better, and their toes need to be a lot darker, but it gives you an idea.

Since Himalayan is acromelanistic, colder temperatures bring better points. They're prone to molting and aren't the easiest variety.

For the darkest points, bring in a good black mouse (NOT a pet store black), and after F2, breed _only _Siamese to Siamese, and nothing else. Cull all other mice, and with competent selection in a few years you'll have a decent line of Siamese.


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## wowwy

I like your mice the first photo i thin is the best thats exactly what i want>


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## Jack Garcia

Good luck!


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## PPVallhunds

love that first one Jack

Muppet Ninja
My black boy came form an NMC member, if you want a nice dark black your best bet is to fine some one breeing with the aim of showing rather than a petshop. But ive hurd showquality blacks can be hard to get ahold of reasontly.


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## sys15

those are absolutely beautiful, jack. it's crazy that they are just byproducts.


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