# golden satin or fawn satin????



## kerryann

ive been calling this little mousey golden satin but recently saw pic of fawn satin ons and they look identical. can anyone help?


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## SarahC

yes if the eyes are pink its fawn,if they are black it would be red.It doesn't appear satin in the picture.
A fawn satin,one of mine.


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## kerryann

i thought it was fawn. its not a very good pic. heres another one


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## kerryann

sorry its my phone. not very good at taking pics. its eyes are pink. thankyou for your help xx


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## kerryann

i hope its satin, travelled 50 miles for them lol


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## SarahC

pictures are not clear enough.Do you think it looks satin in the flesh.It looks argente in the other pic and fawn in the one above.


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## kerryann

in the flesh it is very satin. think i need to get myself a good camera.lol thanks for your help xx


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## Mymouse

The photo is very blurry but I think it looks like a satin, as far as I can see.


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## Roland

I did not know that "Gold" exists as a colour in mice at all. I always thought there are red satin mice, some are fawn and have pink eyes, the genetic formula is either Ay/* p/p sa/sa or */* e/e p/p sa/sa, or there are black eyed reds, which have the same gene code, but P/* instead of p/p.
English Gold is something completely different, it is A/* b/b p/p and can be satin or not.
So far I associated the naming "Gold Mouse" with a marketingnaming of pet shops of red satins.

Please give some input, if these definitions are different in your country or club.

Have a nice weekend, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!


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## quadrapop

Their baby pics definately satin...


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## Jack Garcia

Roland said:


> I did not know that "Gold" exists as a colour in mice at all. I always thought there are red satin mice, some are fawn and have pink eyes, the genetic formula is either Ay/* p/p sa/sa or */* e/e p/p sa/sa, or there are black eyed reds, which have the same gene code, but P/* instead of p/p.
> English Gold is something completely different, it is A/* b/b p/p and can be satin or not.
> So far I associated the naming "Gold Mouse" with a marketingnaming of pet shops of red satins.
> 
> Please give some input, if these definitions are different in your country or club.
> 
> Have a nice weekend, Roland
> Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
> The place where science meets fun!


It's not (just) a marketing ploy of pet stores. In the US under the AFRMA there are standardized "gold," "fawn," "orange," and "red," in the self classes, but the AFRMA is the only club in the world to divide these up in this way.

To my eyes there is not enough difference to warrant four separate standards. I feel like naming a bunch of shades for one or two colors gives people reason to breed mice who don't conform to the standards as well and also are not as consistent as when there are only one or two standards (such as red and fawn, which is the case in the NMC and ECMA).

For example, it is easily conceivable that in one litter a person might have gold (pink eyes or black eyes), fawn (pink eyes or black eyes), orange (pink eyes, black eyes, or ruby eyes), and red (BE only). Counting the variation of eye colors, that's six or eight possible show entries on mice with the same or similar genotypes in the same litter.

The closest analogy that would make sense to the rest of us that I can think of is this. Pretend you have a particularly dark beige (ce/ce) mouse, a particularly light one, and two which are in-between (beige, like red, is a color that naturally varies a lot without very selective breeding for color). Now standardize all of them.

I belong to (and love) the AFRMA, but I don't show under them since I live 2200 miles away. They do some other things differently, too--their dove and lilac are the opposite of ours (NMC and ECMA). If anybody here actually shows gold, fawn, orange, or red mice under these standards, feel free to chime in! 

Here is the AFRMA's standards page, by the way: http://www.afrma.org/miceself.htm

edit: duplicate post


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## SarahC

quadrapop said:


> Their baby pics definately satin...]


clearly in this picture.At least one is argente,possibly two and the others fawn,very pretty.


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## kerryann

thankyou xx


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## quadrapop

She took the 3 palest, I have the argente runt female and 2 inbetween both coloured boys left.


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## Seawatch Stud

When satins were first standardised in England in the 70s, there was a black eyed gold and a pink eyed gold satin. At the 1976 AGM of the NMC it was decided to remove their standard as there was no equivalent self colour. That is the only gold Im aware of. It was described as like "gold lame" in colour. This decision caused a lot of controversy in the fancy(same old, same old!) and it does seem that we missed out on a very striking variety. The black eyed gold had a blue undercolour like an argente. The pink eyed had a medium chocolate undercolour so it would appear they were different from each other, and the PE version was not a dilute of a BE golden.


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## Roland

Jack, indeed the AFRMA Standard is a little bit unsusual: "Fawn" - Eye color may be pink or black. For me a fawn never has black eyes. The mouse shown as "Gold" lookes like a beige Piebald.

Anyway, I think it is a pitty that so many different names exist in the international mouse community for the genotypes and phenotypes.

My personal point of view and proposal for naming varieties is to keep close to the genotypes and avoid naming according to the phenotype.

I think it makes a lot of sense to distinguish between Red, Fawn, Argente and Brindle. Orange and Gold should not be used as names. Yellow is just a name for a bad red, which has the genotyp of a red, but a phenotype of little quality.

Red can be any Agouti allele combined with Ay/* or with e/e.
Fawn can be any of these red mice, but with pink eyes, eg Ay/* p/p or e/e p/p.
Argente is Agouti combined with pink eyes.
Brindle has a background of several genotypes, the most common are Avy and sex-linked brindle.Darker stripped similar to a tiger from head to tail.

Image removed to avoid conflict with another site.Please contact the site owner for permission to use their pictures.


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## Jack Garcia

In general, I agree. It's better to stick closely to the genotype in naming phenotypes. There is _some_ overlap both ways (for example, PEWs can be all sorts of combinations), but not a lot. Otherwise, you'd have countless varieties approved for any one phenotype!



Roland said:


> Anyway, I think it is a pitty that so many different names exist in the international mouse community for the genotypes and phenotypes.


Yeah, it gets frustrating! It's not just in the international community, either. Even within the USA there are differences. For example, some clubs call a/a p/p lilac whereas others call it dove.



Roland said:


> Yellow is just a name for a bad red


I could say "amen" to this 500 times. 

Although now that I think about it, the scientific name is "lethal yellow," no matter the color or shade. This is not a valid reason though, because it is not consistent (when was the last time you heard somebody can an a/a mouse "non-agouti" instead of "black?").

I think that people often use fancier names such as "recessive yellow" or "sienna" because it makes them feel better than saying "poor red." It's the same with dogs--people will say "puggle" or "peek-a-poo" rather than "mongrel," or "mixed-breed," or "mutt." One is more accurate and the other hides the truth a little bit. Both can make excellent pets, but only one meets the standards (or at least tries to).

There is confusion with the different standards in different countries. Using non-standard names causes even more confusion, but to its credit, at least the AFRMA does have its gold, orange, red and fawn all standardized.


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