# Monster Mouse (Ahhhh)



## jessierose2006

Please excuse the size of the pics i havent found a photo resizer that is compatible with my version of windows yet.

Ok well i am experimenting with size and went to the petstore and picked the BIGGEST PEW they had there. (there wasnt much of a choice selection but she is very sweet and even after me getting,being put in a dark box, and hauled home she didnt try to get away or chew on me.  She is literally a handful lol

Here is _______________ (im still deciding on a name)










Here is ____________ compared to one of my other does










Here is ______________ compared to another doe


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## WillowDragon

Is she always hunched like that? If she is then its not a good sign.

I would have recommended keeping her away from your other mice for a couple of weeks honestly.

I can tell she definately has a bigger head than you other does, hard to tell about body size though because of her posture.

K xx


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## m137b

She isn't from bowmans is she?


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## Rhasputin

You should have quarantined her for 3-4 weeks before letting her near your other mice. Coming from a pet store, there's no telling what she could have, or be carrying. :?


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## jessierose2006

She is in a cage by herself for now and no she isnt always hunched those just happened to be the pics i took when she and the other were sitting still.

Why what does a hunch mean? She does hold her tail up and curved over her back when i pick her up but once she is down she lets it down too.


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## jessierose2006

And shes from the same petstore as the others so if she is ill so are the others and so far i havent had any issues but she is by herself and will be byherself for a while

1. quarantine (just to be safe)
2. no cagemates as they are being nannies at the moment.

so the soonest she will be with someone is the end of this month.

I will get a pick of her moving around so you can see her unhunched and try to size her up next to a dollar bill. (or 10.00)


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## m137b

Quarantine with mice means in a completely seperate air space, like another room or area of the house, not just a seperate cage.

She looks like the retired breeders they sell at the feed store near me, they're big because they're 9+ months old and no longer suitable for breeding.


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## jessierose2006

hm i didnt know bowmans sold retired breeders. I only ever saw baby mice there and only got them maybe 2x from there as it was out of my way.

what happens to mice that are 9+ months old in terms of breeding? (i know feeder breeder retire them to be snake food but imeant in terms of "real mouse owners")

And what does a constant hunch mean?


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## Jack Garcia

jessierose2006 said:


> And shes from the same petstore as the others so if she is ill so are the others


This is unfortunately not true. Pet stores have new animals coming into and going out of their store literally every day. If they're selling live feeders there's ample opportunity for disease to pass from one animal to another and unfortunately this is very easily done with loss leaders like mice, where the investment in their health is non-existent. 

The only effective quarantine is done in another separate house or another separate air space. I rarely get new mice these days, but when I do I use my car for quarantine as long as the weather isn't too hot. Mites, lice, and some URI-causing nasties can travel through air vents and from room-to-room on people or other surfaces. About ten years ago there was a rat fancier in Chicago who lost her entire stock of rats because she didn't quarantine a petstore rat she brought home who, unbeknownst to her, carried both Sendai and SDA into her house.

Is English your first language? It's perfectly ok if it's not, but I can't imagine how you wouldn't know what being hunched over means. It means the mouse is bent over, sort of in the shame of a hump, and in this case has a general poorly-kept or sick appearance. I hope that helps clarify what people mean...


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## jessierose2006

well i have never had an animal with a "hunch or hump" so no i didnt know if it was a health related issue, old age, or a inbreeding issue or what. and yes english is my first language...

and hunch in one species might be different from a hunch in another species when someone says another "person" is hunched i think of bad posture not them being sick. (like elderly people who use a cane or walker kinda hunch over to walk)

so my appologies...


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## Jack Garcia

Don't worry about it -- I just wasn't sure where the misunderstanding was.

Cindy, do you mean that she looks "baggy" like a doe who has been bred a lot? I hadn't thought of that, but if she is a retired feeder breeder who's had a lot of litters, that might account some for the look of being hunched over.


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## WillowDragon

Honestly, if one of my mice gets the 'hunched' appearance along with fur stuck up along the neck shoulders and spine, it indicates sickness and I cull them straight away. Also they get an almost tired look in thier eye.

I wouldn't be surprised if she were a retired breeder, she is certainly not young looking.

If you really want to get a litter out of her, make it only one and cull the litter down to maybe only 2 to 4 babies.


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## jessierose2006

ok but if she is a retired breeder how come she is sooo big? i mean she is bigger than all my other mice!

what would cause her to be so big just selective breeding from the feeder breeders? I mean shes the size i would like all my mice to be. 
and she is cute even if she is old which i wont say she isnt as i dont know. and for being a feeder mouse she has one of the nicest temperaments and is so calm compared to some feeders.


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## jessierose2006

and she looks far from tired she has been investigating her cage all night and eating and drinking fine 
her eyes are bright and shes sniffy (not sneezing or cold symptoms) more investigatively and shes moving around quite a bit


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## m137b

Yep Jack, that's the look, poor flesh condition, thinning coat. The feed store near[bowmans] me sells their retired breeders as 'extra-large' feeders and charges more for them.

If she is a retired breeder, she's bigger because she's actually physically mature.


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## jessierose2006

i paid the same for her as i do for my other feeders  so i didnt loose out on that. but bowmans is expensive i paid more on pinks and fuzzies there than i did anywhere else so i refuse to buy any mice from them Plus their fuzzies and pinks were so puny i had to feed spike 2 to get the same amount of actual food in him to match a single fuzzie from a different pet store. the only thing we have ever bought from them were our 2 ferrets and they are awesome and will be 3 yrs next month.

oh ok so i probably wont get bigger mice if she is a old breeder.


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## jessierose2006

well i did some thought. i will not breed her as i only wanted to try it if i would get bigger mice from the breeding. and i do like her ears but she will not used in my breeding program. as my breeding her in wont help me any and the experiment would be a waste of a cage i could use for colored mice babies.

I havent decided on if i will cull her or not i may keep her just becuase she is bigger and is a nice girl attitude wise.


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## Jack Garcia

WillowDragon said:


> Honestly, if one of my mice gets the 'hunched' appearance along with fur stuck up along the neck shoulders and spine, it indicates sickness and I cull them straight away. Also they get an almost tired look in thier eye.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if she were a retired breeder, she is certainly not young looking.
> 
> If you really want to get a litter out of her, make it only one and cull the litter down to maybe only 2 to 4 babies.


I also cull mice before they get to the state this mouse is in. I think it's the kindest thing to do, really.



> what would cause her to be so big just selective breeding from the feeder breeders? I mean shes the size i would like all my mice to be.


She's actually small when you consider just her bone structure and body shape and not just her weight/mass. She looks larger just because she's hunched over and baggy, presumably from having a lot of litters, and because she is an adult.

A large mouse has a more solid bone structure as well as heavier muscling and a sleeker coat. I don't know how to describe it, but in this picture:










...you can see that while the mouse _is_ bigger, the bones are more solid under the skin and "fill out" the mouse in a way that doesn't happen on the mouse you've bought. I hope that makes sense. (When I took this picture a couple years ago I had no idea I'd refer to it for so many different things! :lol


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## jessierose2006

bigger thats an understatement... :shock:

That mouse is HUGE that looks even bigger than the one i got :lol:

Where can i get a mammoth mouse that big and how much would it cost me


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## Jack Garcia

If you attend a mouse show and ask in advance (a couple months is usually sufficient--one to breed the litter and one for them to be weaned) maybe some folks would adopt to you. I'm not out that way anymore, but there are breeders with nicer mice in MD, PA, and VA. They're usually $5 or under (mine are free). Cost is not an issue, but you usually have to convince the breeders you're in it for the long-haul and plan to breed only a couple varieties. I only know one person who would knowingly adopt to somebody who doesn't quarantine mice from a pet store but she's probably not the type of breeder you'd want mice from anyway.


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## WillowDragon

Hehe that girlie of Jacks looks nearly as big as a couple I have had... I have had PEW's and one Champagne that reached over 12 inches nose to tail tip. All does funnily enough. They used to give birth to pinkies nearly as long as my little finger.

Its so strange breeding a marked variety now, they are so small in comparison!

K xx


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## jessierose2006

so wait a minute... not all fancy mice are that big???

so are my mini-mice ok in regards to fancy mice or are they supposed to be bigger?


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## Rhasputin

Fancy mice come in all shaped and sizes.


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## jessierose2006

But i read somewhere that what seperated the Fancy mouse from other mice was that they were bigger in size and their exotic colors.... those LIARS.


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## Rhasputin

The fancy mouse, is a house mouse. They are the same thing.


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## jessierose2006

:lol: 
ok well now i dont feel as bad that my mices are itty bity


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## WillowDragon

'Generally' (And I only say generally because I have seen exceptions) the self coloured mice in exhibition type mice are the larger. Especially PEW's.

Marked varieties tend to be still nice and typey, but not as large, because markings are the focus in breeding, not size.

K xx


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## jessierose2006

oh ok. well that makes me feel better about my mice even tho i wish mine were as big as that one in Jacks pic.


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## evansrabbitranch

Jack Garcia said:


> A large mouse has a more solid bone structure as well as heavier muscling and a sleeker coat. I don't know how to describe it, but in this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...you can see that while the mouse _is_ bigger, the bones are more solid under the skin and "fill out" the mouse in a way that doesn't happen on the mouse you've bought. I hope that makes sense. (When I took this picture a couple years ago I had no idea I'd refer to it for so many different things! :lol


Can I save this picture to use to visualize my goals with? I know I will never get to having anything like the white mouse (won't live long enough) but it would help. Would never give it away or use it other than to look at.


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## Rhasputin

If you save up some cash and get some mice shipped, you can have mice like that in no time.  
It's really not -that- expensive to ship mice. I mean, it's around $200 usually, excluding the cost of the animals, and crates. 
American Airlines and Delta both ship mice for that price.


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## evansrabbitranch

My husband won't let me ship a snake for $40 how will I convince him to give me $200+ for mice lol In the most politest way possible, I would like to ask everyone to stop trying to push show mice on me please. Just because I want to breed for larger mice doesn't mean I want to waste someones work on good show mice for my pet lines. Show mice should be shown not sold to people who don't even know where any shows are.


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## jessierose2006

welllllll..... i can think of about 30 other things i can spend 200.00 on right now :lol: I think the most expensive pet i bought were our ferrets at 140.00 each

And i still havent justified the fact i want to spend 300 on a snake just because i like the color


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## Rhasputin

Nobody is pushing show mice on you. We're trying to help you.

You said you want to keep that photo to visualize your goals, admit to not being able to do it in your lifetime, and then complain when I explain a way to do it quickly.

Nobody said you -have- to get show type mice. But if you ever want to get anywhere with breeding for size in your life time, you almost certainly will need to get some.

I really just don't get what you want from us any more.


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## jessierose2006

who me? i have decided i am not worried with size since mine arernt as puny as i thought thanks to willow  so now i just plan to experiment with all my pet store mice to see what i get out of them and then eventually decide on what i really want to focus on color wise.


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## Rhasputin

No no, not you Jess. 
I was speaking to Evansrabbitranch. Sorry, should have noted that! :?


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## jessierose2006

:lol:

...... im still fighting myself on that satin boy you pmmed me a pic of


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## evansrabbitranch

Rhasputin said:


> Nobody is pushing show mice on you. We're trying to help you.
> 
> You said you want to keep that photo to visualize your goals, admit to not being able to do it in your lifetime, and then complain when I explain a way to do it quickly.
> 
> Nobody said you -have- to get show type mice. But if you ever want to get anywhere with breeding for size in your life time, you almost certainly will need to get some.
> 
> I really just don't get what you want from us any more.


Even slightly larger is a gain. I breed pet mice not show mice. I just want to know what to look for in keepers. The photo tells me what the ideal is. So I have a set goal. I don't want to pay out the yun yang to get what someone else did. I want to put my time money and efforts in my own mice. Why is that so evil? That is what I get everytime someone tells me that I will only EVER see improvement if I buy someone elses work and ruin it by crossing it to my pet mice. I do not understand why it is so horrid for someone to want their work to be their own? Telling me I will only see any improvement at all is by buying show mice IS pushing show mice on me. I do not understand what you think I want because you have no clue. You assume what I want from what you feel is the one and only way to do anything. So I won't see collasal 12 inch mice in my lines in my life. It is my life. Breeding for size does not mean get big mice and have big mice. It means BREED FOR BIGGER MICE. You personally and no one else feels the only way to breed for any size increase I have to have show mice. So stop telling me to get show mice. Telling me to get show mice as the one and only way to ever see any increase in size is indeed pushing show mice on me. And honestly you are the only person who has a problem with me and I do not understand it.

As we say in the rabbit world. There is more than one way to do many things.


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## Jack Garcia

evansrabbitranch said:


> My husband won't let me ship a snake for $40 how will I convince him to give me $200+ for mice lol In the most politest way possible, I would like to ask everyone to stop trying to push show mice on me please. Just because I want to breed for larger mice doesn't mean I want to waste someones work on good show mice for my pet lines. Show mice should be shown not sold to people who don't even know where any shows are.


No one is pushing anything onto you. You do realize that you're not on a feeder site, right? All sorts of breeders are welcome here, but this place is called "Fancy Mice Breeders" for a reason. Mice from the fancy _are_ show mice. You're asking questions and people are answering truthfully. If you want to increase size significantly in mice, you're not going to get by using pet store mice or feeder mice. I know that's not the answer you want, but it's the truth.


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## Wight Isle Stud

To breed for bigger mice, at 16 weeks, you pair the biggest to the biggest.


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## jessierose2006

ok ok fight nice everyone last time i posted a thread i had to have it locked..

And who knows if you are really picky on your keepers (meaning the biggest in each litter) you may see large mice in your lifetime. i mean yeah its gonna take time, and a lot of mice, but it most likely is do-able. They say show mice as a shortcut around all the litters you would go through to get mice that big. Just like i tried a large feeder mouse as a shortcut but that didnt exactly go as planned  :lol: . But im not mad at anyone on here i made a mistake and learned from it thats all im here for to learn and i will make mistakes as i am still fresh to the world of mice.


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## Wight Isle Stud

did you get that post i just sent ?


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## Wight Isle Stud

did you get that post i just sent ?


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## Wight Isle Stud

did you get that post i just sent ?


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## jessierose2006

> To breed for bigger mice, at 16 weeks, you pair the biggest to the biggest.


This post? you mean did i understand it?

you posted 3X on here the same question :lol:


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## Wight Isle Stud

no, i said did you get it. obviously you did !


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## jessierose2006

:lol:

Yes its posted and yes i understand that i breed BIG x BIG :lol:


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## Wight Isle Stud

good. does that answer your question ?


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## jessierose2006

yes. but i wasnt really asking how to get bigger mice lol i was going to run an experiment with an XL feeder mouse. I had already common sensed the BIG x BIG = BIGGER  I was just going to shortcut it but that didnt work as planned. Evans was the one asking how to get bigger mice and i got my hairbrained scheme


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## Rhasputin

Let me know ASAP on wether you want me to hold one of those satins for you Jessie, I'm about to cull them if not. :?


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## jessierose2006

I pmmed you


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## evansrabbitranch

Jack Garcia said:


> No one is pushing anything onto you. You do realize that you're not on a feeder site, right? All sorts of breeders are welcome here, but this place is called "Fancy Mice Breeders" for a reason. Mice from the fancy _are_ show mice. You're asking questions and people are answering truthfully. If you want to increase size significantly in mice, you're not going to get by using pet store mice or feeder mice. I know that's not the answer you want, but it's the truth.


Sigh, I know full well I am not on a feeder site. I am on a _mouse breeder_ site which I assumed meant _breeders of all mice_. Not all "fancy" mice are show mice, that is the problem. I never said I wanted a significant increase in size. I just wanted to know how to select for bigger mice, not suddenly have huge mice. I mean one thing and you guys mean another thing. We are suffering a large miscommunication here. I do not know how to get my goals across without everyone assuming I want mice as big as show mice. I just want slightly bigger. Perhaps that is more clear? Because the answer I keep getting is to ruin someone elses prime show mice by breeding them _down_ to the size I am aiming for.


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## evansrabbitranch

jessierose2006 said:


> ok ok fight nice everyone last time i posted a thread i had to have it locked..
> 
> And who knows if you are really picky on your keepers (meaning the biggest in each litter) you may see large mice in your lifetime. i mean yeah its gonna take time, and a lot of mice, but it most likely is do-able. They say show mice as a shortcut around all the litters you would go through to get mice that big. Just like i tried a large feeder mouse as a shortcut but that didnt exactly go as planned  :lol: . But im not mad at anyone on here i made a mistake and learned from it thats all im here for to learn and i will make mistakes as i am still fresh to the world of mice.


See my longest mouse, body only no tail length counted, is under 4 inches. I just want to try to get them _over_ 4 inches lol. I think its a huge misunderstanding, not a fight. I don't see that it would take 120 years, as someone else said, to get over 4 inches in body length. Are we cool now that I spelled it out? I don't know how to get much clearer.


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## evansrabbitranch

jessierose2006 said:


> yes. but i wasnt really asking how to get bigger mice lol i was going to run an experiment with an XL feeder mouse. I had already common sensed the BIG x BIG = BIGGER  I was just going to shortcut it but that didnt work as planned. Evans was the one asking how to get bigger mice and i got my hairbrained scheme


Ouch, having never bred for size I did not know it was as simple as big the biggest to the biggest to get bigger :lol: Maybe this knowledge is not all that common


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## Rhasputin

:roll:


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## jessierose2006

Ill be back- just went over this...

Big + Big = Bigger 
Bigger + Big = Even Bigger
Even Bigger +... well you get the point


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## jessierose2006

:lol: sorry :lol: :mrgreen:


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## evansrabbitranch

jessierose2006 said:


> Ill be back- just went over this...
> 
> Big + Big = Bigger
> Bigger + Big = Even Bigger
> Even Bigger +... well you get the point


Yeah ha ha I get it now. I do like the idea of finding bigger mice to give a boost, but there are none local and I would feel horrid taking someone's nice large show mice and breeding _down_ to my goal of 4 inches or slightly longer in the body. Now if I could find XL petshop mice that are _not_ old, that I would not feel bad about. However as I said somewhere on here, the only XL mice I see near me are frozen lol.


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## jessierose2006

just need a little defrosting :lol: and maybe a few shots of botox to make it look a bit alive :lol: :lol:


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## SarahY

> I just wanted to know how to select for bigger mice, not suddenly have huge mice


This is one way to do it: when the litter is one or two days old, look at the size of the skulls. You will notice that some of them have wider, broad big skulls, and some will have tiny, narrow skulls. Also take into consideration body length and tail thickness, but it's the skull size that is most important. Cull every single litter down to four or five kittens, keep those 1 or 2 bucks and 2 or 3 does with the biggest skulls, before they are a couple of days old. Now the four or five remaining mice will get everything they need to grow properly and you will be able to see them for the most they can be. When these mice are 12 weeks old, breed no more than half of them. Discard the smaller ones and breed only the biggest. Repeat the process. You will see a size difference in a few generations, and you will see a significant improvement in size over the next few years. Certainly in your lifetime 

Sarah xxx


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## evansrabbitranch

I am copying that down and going to make a little poster to go next to my mice so I can refer to it when I am viewing litters. Those details are exactly what I needed! Bless you


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## SarahY

Glad to help 

I know it works because of my Abyssinians. I breed two lines; one to cross with big show mice to improve the type and one that I breed Abyssinian to Abyssinian only. I always cull my litters on day one and I always keep the ones with the biggest skulls. A couple of years on in my Aby x Aby line the mice are now half the size again of my original Abyssinians - and that is purely because I culled by skull size. There are no show mice in that line; that line is kept pure because every outcross to a smooth coated mouse totally ruins the rosettes.

Sarah xxx


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## evansrabbitranch

Wow. I got it written down, thanks again. I hope it works out with my satins. I decided to do it focusing on satins. Mostly nice bright yellow ones and clean gray ones.


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