# antibiotics whilst pregnant/nursing



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

What are your views on giving mice antibiotics whilst they are pregnant/nursing?

My veterinarian takes a "there may or may not be adverse effects" approach, which means basically nothing to me. She said there are no studies that prove anything one way or the other, which honestly I'd expect.

I've only given antibiotics (enrofloxacin/Baytril) to pregnant mice six times. Two of those times resulted in miscarriage. I know that's a small sample and doesn't really represent anything larger but I was curious what other people's experiences and views were, especially with regards to enrofloxacin.

I generally only give antibiotics for URI once, if that. I don't like to breed from sick animals, but it so happens that some of my recent imports may be coming down with something (which is to be expected entering a new country with new pathogens). Thoughts?


----------



## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

That general type of antibiotic, the cephalosporins, are probably more likely to cause bad reactions, in my opinion. And I'd think think any antibiotic would be risky for a pregnant mouse. Depending on the problem, you might want to try something milder, perhaps an herbal treatment, until the doe has thrown her litter. Bottom line, I would guess is that if you lose the litter, you still have the doe, and can probably try again after she has been treated and had a chance to fully recover.

Sanguinaria aka bloodroot is available in a concentrate you could add to the water; you might also want to explore the idea of giving an echinacea product, or a combo of the two. Echinacea might be too strong too, though, to be good for a pregnant doe.

Sanguinaria is something I use myself, as a mouthwash, and add it to drinking water for does near term, as it helps to prevent excess bleeding, internal or external. And it tastes good! One of the very first commercial mouthwash brands, the original Viadent, had that in it. Yummers!


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Do you have any studies to cite either against enrofloxacin or for the herbal remedies you mentioned? My vet seems to be pretty clueless when it comes to how medications act during (possible) pregnancy and any peer-reviewed studies I can find (even in rabbits or cavies), published laboratory procedures, or anything of the like, I'd like to show her.


----------



## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

No, sorry. Gonna have to do your own legwork, so to speak. The only experience is personal; the knowledge comes from years of taking a lot of antibiotics, and being a compulsive reader who always checks stuff out before putting in my cakehole. The sanguinaria is from personal experience also. Ciproloxacin, cephalexin...Keflex all brand names for the people type product. Ceftin,...think think think...personally, unless whatever is wrong is treated in the first 36 hours, there's probably nothing that will help (or hurt). Meeces have a very fast metabolism which means a fast uptake and clearance in the urine unless you use a macrolide (has a large ring of molecules added that make the drug stick in muscle and especially in fatty tissue), and I haven't bothered to read up on the use of those in rodents, and I doubt you'd be able to find info on anything like that. Cold be that those don't work in rodents...talking about zithromycin, and other long-acting erythromycin analogs.

Personally, I save all my left-over meds and beg samples from my doctor so I always have something fresh around to offer when I decide to medicate for an infection. One droll book on meeces I read long ago said that "it's best to put down any sick or injured mouse as they rarely recover". I could easily see that point...I have a 50% survival rate with my amateurish treatments. I tend to think that any treatment is better than no treatment, but maybe not by much. There seems to be no way to tell from mouse to mouse what will cure or what will kill, or if one really has much control over the disease process in mousies.

Good luck!


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah, I generally euthanize most sick mice too. There's no point in keeping most of them around.

I don't need human medicine, though. Not only is that dangerous to the people if you keep any of it around (you should always finish all your antibiotics), but I have access to Baytril, which is preferred for most mouse infections. The problem I'm running into is that my vet says that it "may or may not" "have an effect" on the pregnancy of mice, which doesn't really mean anything at all. I understand that she's just covering all the bases and basically telling me "it's up to you," but I'm looking for other data. You'd think there would be at least something published by a lab or research institution. 

Most scientists (not just vets) don't seem to accept personal experience (I also have lots) very readily. It's odd that there's apparently absolutely no literature out there either way, considering how widely mice, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc. are kept as laboratory animals.


----------



## moustress (Sep 25, 2009)

Unfortunately, the studies that are done on rodents are usually considered proprietary and are really hard to get a look at. The pharm co's are in it for the money. Grandma already knows how to suck eggs. There's no substitute for experience and a lot of room between book learning and common sense. Again, good luck.


----------



## Jack Garcia (Oct 9, 2009)

A friend just PMed me this: http://drugsafetysite.com/ciprofloxacin/



> Ciprofloxacin did not impair fertility and was not embryotoxic or teratogenic in mice and rats at doses up to 6 times the usual human daily dose. A similar lack of embryo and fetal toxicity was observed in rabbits...


Apparently Ciprofloxacin is related to enrofloxacin/Baytril.


----------



## Weema-Nerang Mousery (Jan 28, 2010)

I found this, it has a bit of information about dose rates and pregnant mice in it.

http://www.baytril.com/13/Safety_and_Toxicology.htm


----------

