# Importing mice from Europe (split from Ripped off)



## jadeguppy

It would almost be worth it to get everyone together for a group purchase of mice from Europe so the playing field would be leveled some. I don't know why one person thinks they can ruin someone's reputation. They must really see this as an elitist group that they control. I'm curious, did your mice originate from the eastern US? I see you are in CA. I haven't heard of this type of thing on the West Coast so I've assumed who you have been referring to.


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## Rhasputin

jadeguppy said:


> It would almost be worth it to get everyone together for a group purchase of mice from Europe so the playing field would be leveled some.


Count me in.


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## moustress

I'm interested as well.


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## Kingnoel

I would jump at the opportunity! Is it really possible? (time to split this thread?)


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## Shadowrunner

I'd be in on the importing ;D

OOOO! It's people like that who give Americans a bad name.
It's always the crazies who are loudest. They have nothing better to do.
I'm too angry for you to put write clearly. 
It might have been that the person who sold to you wasn't aware of the contract and it doesn't matter anyway. You bought them, they are yours, do with them what you will.
I also encourage you to breed and spread them.
The contracts won't even be an issue then because they wont be able to show they are the original breeder.There will be too many. That another reason why I'm also on board for leveling . xD

Does anyone know if this member notarizes their papers? It's even more laughable if they don't.


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## Rhasputin

We need to pool a bunch of money together. Have a clerk, and everyone donate money as they can.
Then we all just say what sort of mice we're looking for and try to get a shipment together of the mice we'd all like. . .

Then it's just a matter of moving them around -this- country.


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## Loganberry

If you guys are thinking about this seriously, it would be good to get it moving now as there's a show in the UK (Harrogate) at the end of January. People from Holland come over for it, and we exchange mice. I don't know if you'd need someone from your group here in the UK or in Holland to run around and collect mice and get them on the plane, but there would be an opportunity for you as so many breeders come together at this show, and everyone breeds mice over winter for it, so people are more likely to have stock to sell. Just an idea if you could get things organised that fast.


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## jadeguppy

We would need someone familiar with customs to help us. I hear it can be a pain and cost over $1000. Then there will be cost involved with shipping the mice throughout the US. That is about $170 per destination.

First step is checking into what needs done regarding customs. If anyone knows a petstore that already imports that would be a huge bonus. Anyone able to help with this?


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## Jacqueline

I sent mice the US before and I guess I had paid around $900 in total, so if you think about $1000 you won't get surprises I think. As far as I understood importing into the US isn't a problem at all as long as the papers from Europe are allright and that's wasn't very hard to arrange. I just needed a declaration in which the amount of mice and sexes were mentioned and a declaration from a vet they were healthy.
I don't know if it's easier to send from the UK or from Holland, I had to go to Frankfurt in Germany to get them on a plane.


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## jadeguppy

Good information. Thank you. Would you be interested in helping with another shipment?


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## Jacqueline

Of course. I will try to contact the breeder I sent the mice to, maybe she has information which could be usefull. It could take a while before she answers though.


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## jadeguppy

Who was the breeder? It may be the one who stirred up the issue with contracts. If so, I"m not sure I want to get contract issues and threatening reputations mixed up with us wanting to import. I hope I said that correctly.


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## Jacqueline

It's not the same person, I already checked. I think she won't make it that difficult at all.


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## Rhasputin

Sounding good!


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## tinyhartmouseries

I can't go any farther with my tans without European tans and reds, count me in.


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## Rhasputin

Tans are -definitely- something we need to import. The US just doesn't have good tans.


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## Laigaie

True facts! Totally in for this!


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## Shadowrunner

Absolutely.

My fiance's father is a retired truck driver. He shipped oil all over the place.
It's been a long time since he retired, but he may know someone willing to drop mice off at certain points.
I also know quite a few people through other forums that are good friends. I could ask around to see if anyone has any tips.
I have shipped birds in, and I still have friends in the bird club. Someone may know something about customs. Some of them have been doing it for years. I also have a good family friend by the name of pat mc.Grady who is running for senate. He might be able to help out with customs too. You never know.

Also, My grandmother was the treasurer for the Baltimore bird fanciers for almost ten years. She might know a good strategy. I'll get on all of those immediately if you guys think that might help.
I'm looking for good blues/blue tans and such as well. Anything with good types honestly.

Some of you guys who know better what the US is lacking(and what the contractor Has that they are trying to monopolize) should throw together a list of "must haves" so we know what we have and what we need. Just some ideas.


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## m137b

I really like this idea. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help out


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## Kingnoel

European tans and reds are at the top of my list also. Tricolors/splashes were the types that got this started, new blood there might not hurt. I've got several pairs I'm working with but would relish other colors.


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## SarahY

It's great to see people getting together like this 



> Some of you guys who know better what the US is lacking(and what the contractor Has that they are trying to monopolize) should throw together a list of "must haves" so we know what we have and what we need. Just some ideas.


I reckon you guys need anything with good red pigment most of all; dominant reds, dominant fawns, cinnamons, agoutis, tans etc. And it wouldn't hurt to find some really good typey PEWs, creams (c/ce), champagnes etc to some along with them.


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## SarahC

and some chins which although they are in the U.S.A don't seem to be freely available,such a useful variety for'making' other varieties.


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## Rhasputin

Yes. Chinchillas would be great!


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## Rhasputin

If we need Chinchillas, reds/tans, and I think we also should get merles (we don't have show type merles), why not import from Roland? He has all of these varieties, excellently bred, and has experience in shipping!


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## SarahY

That's a very good idea. If he's agreeable of course, Roland has every variety you need.


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## SarahY

I really hope this all works out, it'd be awesome to see fantastic mice widely available all over America


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## tinyhartmouseries

I would pay for reds/tans and merles...I'm in so just let me know what I need to do!


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## Rhasputin

What I'm thinking is, we get a pool together, with donations perhaps. We'll have certain people who are getting mice directly out of the shipment, who have an obligation to pay a certain %, but then anyone else is welcome to make donations to the pool to help get things done faster.

I think it would be good for the mice to be shipped to the east coast, since most of the interested parties are on this side of the country. Then other arrangements can be made to transport any mice to the other side of the country, whether it be through trains, or airline shipping.

We could arrange a show, somewhere like TN, where everyone can meet up and grab their mice. We have a venue in TN that we can use for very cheap, it's more west than the other show venues. . .

Just throwing out ideas here!


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## jadeguppy

I don't mind holding the mice until arrangements can be made to get them to everyone. I think we are half and half on which coast is interested. I don't really count for either one.  However I am just south of interstate 10, which is a big trucking lane. I can easily meet any trucker at the 87 exit. It will probably help figure out the best shipping location if shadowrunner provides out approximate locations to the trucker(s). There is an organization of truckers who help with animal transport, but the site says no breeders.

The pool sounds good, but lets wait until we have a firmer idea about how much it will cost.

I too am interested in good tans and reds. I'm trying to work with ry. I'd also be interested in long coated angoras. I think the US could also use some nice solid typie blacks.


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## Rhasputin

Blacks are a good idea as well. Also available from Roland. 
Also, yes, we need a much more solid price range, before planning to take money, or arrange most of anything.


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## mouselover01

Count me in.

I just contacted Roland to see what he says about being our contact overseas to get the mice together and arrange the shipment and collect the money for us.

I told him we find him to be one of the most trustworthy people and would like to work directly with him to make this possible.

Is he a member here?

Does anyone object?


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## jadeguppy

Honestly mouselover, you should have asked if we object before asking him. There is already a European member working on it. I would certainly like to get some of Roland's mice, but I don't want to push someone out who is already helping. I'd rather ask that member if the help is needed. Yes, Roland is a member here. I love your enthusiasm, but please try not to jump the gun. The last thing we want to do is cause problems with our overseas friends.


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## Rhasputin

I didn't know there was a european member working on it?

I think getting mice from Roland is our best bet, since he has the varieties we all need, and experience shipping.
I would also trust him with my money, because he has been a trusted member of the community for a long time, and is always easy to contact.


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## Rhasputin

I'm thinking that whoever does hold the mice should also probably get some of the pool to feed the mice they are holding.


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## mouselover01

I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way, but I know the importance of preparing and looking at all angles.

It behooves us to not rely on only one person in the planning stage such as this, but, rather explore all options. Not that I don't "trust" the member who is getting info for us, I don't even know who it is, but again, get as many options as we can in this stage before we commit to anything.

This is not a new idea for me. I've actually been considering doing this for some time now and have already contacted government agencies in other countries to obtain info. I like to stayy ahead of the game and 


More informmation will not hurt us as far as planning


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## jadeguppy

Jacqueline said she has shipped and was looking into the regulations as well as contacting the person she shipped to about US regulations. It was back at the end of page 1 and top of page 2. I'm not offended, I just don't want us to get ahead of ourselves, put out a bunch of feelers, and possibly offend someone who helps, but we dont' ship with. I guess it is the pc side of me.

Rhasputin, if I hold the mice, I'm not worried about $ for food. To let everyone know, I currently feed Harlan Teklad 18% protein blocks and use shreded aspen and sani chips for bedding. I'm considering trying shreded newspapers, but have no problem not housing someone's mouse on newspaper by request. The biggest issue I see is enough cages for transportation to all the locations. However, a few bucks should cover a plastic shoebox and water bottle. That is assuming that the mice get shipped in a bulk container from Europe. I'm guessing one for all the does at least.

mouselover, what have you found out fromt eh other countries?

Rhasputin, I say your post on the other site. Do you mind directing everyone to this thread so we can keep all the information in one spot?

I'll try to get an organized list together later today of everyone who has expressed interest and their locations.


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## IrisheaglesOne

Count me in too!! I need reds, and tris! I know Roland has the best Ive ever seen as far as tris go and Id certainly pay to get even one of those!!!!


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## Rhasputin

jadeguppy said:


> Jacqueline said she has shipped and was looking into the regulations as well as contacting the person she shipped to about US regulations. It was back at the end of page 1 and top of page 2. I'm not offended, I just don't want us to get ahead of ourselves, put out a bunch of feelers, and possibly offend someone who helps, but we dont' ship with. I guess it is the pc side of me.
> 
> Rhasputin, if I hold the mice, I'm not worried about $ for food. To let everyone know, I currently feed Harlan Teklad 18% protein blocks and use shreded aspen and sani chips for bedding. I'm considering trying shreded newspapers, but have no problem not housing someone's mouse on newspaper by request. The biggest issue I see is enough cages for transportation to all the locations. However, a few bucks should cover a plastic shoebox and water bottle. That is assuming that the mice get shipped in a bulk container from Europe. I'm guessing one for all the does at least.
> 
> mouselover, what have you found out fromt eh other countries?
> 
> Rhasputin, I say your post on the other site. Do you mind directing everyone to this thread so we can keep all the information in one spot?
> 
> I'll try to get an organized list together later today of everyone who has expressed interest and their locations.


I was thinking about posting a link to over here, but I'm not sure if it will be allowed. Will give it a try though.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you're the best person for the shipment to go to. I think that it needs to go to someone who does more traveling for mice, and who is more north than you are, as most of the people who would be probably be getting the mice are north of you, and even north of me.

I feel like it's very self centered of me to suggest myself, but I think I'm a good option. I'm in the middle between north and south, can easily travel many hours to transport mice and have done so many times over. I know many of the interested parties personally and have met them several times face to face, have plenty of cages available for holding and transport, and have a really really REALLY flexible job schedule, so that won't mess things up.
I'm also planning on traveling to Pigeon Forge TN soon, which will give some of the more western/southern people a chance to pick up their mice. If they cannot make it, there are other people going who would be able to pick the mice up from me, and bring them to their destinations.


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## mouselover01

I know rhasputin personally. I would like her to hold them, at least for me. I like the diet she uses, etc. Just because I have personal experience with her and trust her fully. So if I don't meet on the day of shipment, id like her to hold onto mine. 

I just don't know you jade, no offence.


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## MoonfallTheFox

Ooh, I wish I had money. I want one. :3 I'll have to get some of the offspring when they become available here.

Another thing it would be good to import are just nice, typey selfs to improve existing american lines.


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## Rhasputin

The offspring will be readily available, this shipment is specifically for that purpose.


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## Mrs. Beach

Yes! I want to! So do Tinyhartmouseries and Irisheaglesone! I want c^e/c^e tris!


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## MoonfallTheFox

Awesome! I am even more excited now.


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## jadeguppy

Rhas, I'm not opposed to you getting the shipment in. However, lets see if we can get ahold of some truckers and do whatever is best for them. FWIW, I'm not opposed to travel, but the last show was a two day trip each way and I wasn't interested in trying to show. No one wants to have a show down near me, so they must feel the same way about the distance. 

Mrs. Beach, where is Irisheaglesone located? I'm working on gettign together a general list of locations to work out the best incoming shippment site and trucker routes.

Honestly, when I think about it Gypsytails may be in the best location. She is near the Atlanta airport and can probably get them directly shipped there since it is an international airport. If she doesn't see the post soon, I may give her a call and let her know what we are thinking about. Rhas, are you near any international airports?


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## Rhasputin

Me and Ann have a friend, who is going to be transporting mice west via truck soon. Has done it several times before, so we can get them out like that if we need to! 

The Richmond international is very near me, and if not there, then an airport in DC or MD would be a great spot as well.


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## jadeguppy

If everyone doesn't mind me putting the list together, pm me what type of mouse you are interesed in, how many, genders, etc. and what city and state you are located in. pm's will help keep the thread clear for the other half of the discussion. Once I have a running list, I'll post all the information in one post for everyone to double check. It will be a rough draft, but a start. I'm figuring everyone needs to be ready to put in up to $200 for the overseas part of the shippment. I'd say less with enough people, but it is better to over estimate than underestimate.


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## Rhasputin

Consider also, that we have to keep some sort of limit on the ammount of mice we can all get. If 10 people want 10 mice each, it just won't work. :lol:
You can work together with people near you. Say you want tans, and merles, have one of your near-by friends get one variety, and you get the other, and share!

The whole point here is sharing, so don't worry your heads about getting one of each or anything like that. I hope that EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS shares their mice to anyone they can!


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## jadeguppy

list so far:
Irisheaglesone
Jadeguppy
Kingnoel
Laigaie
m137b
mouselover01
Moustress
Mrs. Beach
Rhasputin
Shadowrunner
Tinyhartmouseries

Did I miss anyone interested in the shipment directly from Europe? If so, please pm me. Also I need pm'd what everyone is interested in.


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## jadeguppy

Rhasputin said:


> Consider also, that we have to keep some sort of limit on the ammount of mice we can all get. If 10 people want 10 mice each, it just won't work. :lol:
> You can work together with people near you. Say you want tans, and merles, have one of your near-by friends get one variety, and you get the other, and share!
> 
> The whole point here is sharing, so don't worry your heads about getting one of each or anything like that. I hope that EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS shares their mice to anyone they can!


True on the sharing, but remember that it was mentioned that there is a big show coming up in Jan. in the UK. We may be able to get some help collecting mice from several different sources.


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## Rhasputin

This is true. I'm jsut saying that each individual person should consult with 'THE LIST!' to see if someone near-by is getting the same varieties as them, so that we can keep it from being an overwhelmingly/impossibly large amount of mice.


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## Shadowrunner

Oh gosh lol. I don't suppose we could sneak in a few blues on that list could we? Or some nice black selfs?

I can ask The retired trucker (Mr.Walt) as soon as I see him. He had a stroke recently and I'm going to visit him this week anyway. He works for a security company now and might have more information then I could think he has anyway.

I don't have a ton of money so I hope we can figure this out quickly enough for me to save xD
(I get all my mouse money by doing art orders)

I have a meeting with Pat Mc.Grady set up for next week as well. He said he knows some people that might make the paperwork easier for us. I guess he should being a politician and all *rolls eyes*.
I have a ton of friends in the bird club some of which know people all over the country. I wonder if any of those people would be willing to sell us cages for cheap. I have gotten critter keepers for 2$ at the shows before. I haven't been able to get in contact with the president of the club yet, but she is super busy so I understand.

I'm so excited. I'm all fired up xD

I'm good with gathering information, but not so good at detailed planning. Is there anything I should be looking for?

Oh and would anyone be opposed to me doing a fundraiser of sorts on my end?

It's a shame we don't have a established club-like structure.
The Baltimore bird fanciers have their own bank account for running the shows and importing birds. How are we going to come up with a rough figure exactly?


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## IrisheaglesOne

Youre right shadow, it would be great to have a club that is established. In the future, we hope to have that in the midwest!!

This is exciting!! Jade, Im right outside Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

Rhas has so much experience with the breeders overseas(especially Roland) so why doesnt Rhas do the dealing with the breeder and Jade work together with her to do the "shipping" along with the No-No Truck(a pet name for the traveling mouse truck) and everyone will get almost everything...WHOOO HOOO!!

I would love Tris and a couple reds(If Tiny is getting reds, then perhaps I can get the tris for this area and she do the reds and well share with each other and the others in this area?? Rolands tris are the goal I will work towards, its the epitamy of Tri Mice to me! And his reds....OHHH WEEE!

This is an awesome Thread!


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## Rhasputin

It as been brought to my attention that manx is a gene we should try to get, as well as Abys. :lol:


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## jadeguppy

I was thinking about manx. Is the European gene recessive or dominate?

I'm thinking the shipping details will take some time to figure out. If it takes two months or more, Roland and some others may be willing to breed and hold back some extra bubs for us.

Types mentioned so far: tans, reds, chinchilla, tris, blues, blacks, merle, dove

Also mentioned, but not requested by a person yet unless Rhas wants them: manx, abys (I am thinking of requesting manx.)

I know Roland has the tans, reds, tris, and maybe the black (someone confirm please). I'd like to have a second or third breeder of these in case Roland doesn't have enough stock.
Who should we ask for the chinchilla, blues, merle, and dove?

If it comes to a shortage, does everyone think it is fair to give those who posted first the first trios and if we run out, trio of bubs are reserved after the first breeding for anyone left on the list?


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## tinyhartmouseries

Roland has nice merles!


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## Shadowrunner

How many do you think we are talking about getting per each person involved? 
Considering how much impact we are going for, will trios be enough?
It seems like the more people who participate, the more that will be needed and that might be a little harder to arrange what with supply and all.

Also. Are we talking about shipping mice exclusively or would it be realistic to think of to sending a few people to scout out and bring some back as well? (talking about the show that was mentioned)


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## Laigaie

I have to admit that I'm a little concerned about how costs would be divvied up in something like this, particularly with some folks acting as transport and holding and shippers, and each recipient not necessarily in for the same amount of mice, who won't need the same amounts of transport or holding. It seems like something that could easily go very poorly, and cause a great deal of upset. Since nobody else seems to have mentioned it, I thought I'd throw that out there.

It may be worth hearing back from the European contacts about the process as far as how the mice are shipped, how pickup works, what shipping costs to each airport, or whether that makes a difference, and what the cost per mouse is if it's 10 mice versus 60 mice versus 120 mice. It may be cheaper per mouse to do an awful lot of mice up front, but that would create more issues for whoever holds the mice. There's also the issue of whether we want single-purpose mice (great black selfs), or if we want to get as typey of mice as possible, or if we're looking for as many of the genes we're after in a single mouse (like tricolor tans or merle tans). Are we looking to use these mice to infuse our mouseries with new and better genes, or are we looking to start over with great, show-quality foundation stock? Are we looking at all does, all trios, or individuals as needed? These are some seriously important things to consider before we go forward.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I think once we iron out HOW MANY individual mice we want, and how much it would cost to ship, the mice can be priced per head and the purchaser can pay per head of mouse they are recieving....this seems like a decent way to handle this issue.

For example if I get 6 mice like I want, I would pay for six, someone else for 3, etc...


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## Stina

If its not too late to express interest I'd be interested in a couple good blues (for black eyed silver), super typey pew or ivory (pref ivory), x-brindles, and/or reds (ideally roland's red e/e's)....and I have no problems with sharing (though I do follow other breeders wishes/contracts)  I would definitely need some idea of cost before I could commit though....as we are very limited on funding!


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## Shadowrunner

I'm looking for really good typed mice. In blue or black.(personally)
This is going to be a bit difficult to plan it seems. because we need a definite Idea of how many mice we need.
It might be easier to have a list, and then go to those people who know best about what is on that list and the best way to go about getting the type,color and amount we need back here.


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## SarahY

Might I make a little suggestion? Instead of trying to get 20 different varieties, which will be a lot of work for the breeders in Europe to get together and ship, why not really think about the varieties you really need and choose those which can make other varieties and improve those you've got? It'll be safer to get a lot of mice of a few varieties in case any of them don't take the move all that well and die.

For example, getting reds (either dominant or Roland's recessives, which are a good red) would improve your agoutis, cinnamons, fawns, getting black tans will allow you to improve all of your tan colours and your foxes, getting blacks will improve the Siamese, chocolates, blues, merles, roans you have, and getting big typey pale selfs like champagne will improve all of your other pale selfs. That way you only need to think about getting the breeders of four or five varieties together and you'll be able to ship more mice of each variety.


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## Rhasputin

I'm thinking it would be smart for less people to be getting mice in the original shipment. Preferably the mice go to people who have worked with the varieties before, so that they can breed, and distrubute the mice to everyone that's putting money in as a donation. 
For instance, I -know- mellissa (known as Gypsytails) is amazing with tans. If she were to get a pair of the shipped in tans, then I -know- she would do good work with them, and they'd be readily available to everyone, and not lose any of their quality as she breeds them. 

I also think that, unfortunately, we can't just get all the varieties we'd ever want. Sara's idea of getting what we really -need- is important. 
We won't really need to get blues, because we have blue and can improve blue with nice blacks, so we can just get some nice blacks. We wouldn't necessarily have to get merle either, since typey blacks would improve merles as well.

I do think we should look into abys and manx though, because manx is held by mousey elitists, and aby is virtually non-existant here.

Since we're going into this as a community, we need to really look at 'what does the mousing community need as a whole' rather than what each person indivudually wants, I think. If we can solve everyone's problems (black, merle, blue) with fewer mice (nice blacks) then that's the direction I think we should go in.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I could have no problem limiting types or waiting for the next generation. However i would want some sort of assurance that the midwest will not be stuck waiting a very long time. I know direct visitation between us and the east coast is limited, so we havent met in person and my earnestness can only be expressed in text. However, I am completely committed to the fancy. I have a transport method so me and Irish could get mice at any time. I have not even found someone that could send me merle, so waiting a gen or two on these european mice could make me a little worried.


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## Rhasputin

Tiny I am sending mice out west soon anyways, on the no-no truck. So I'm sure it wil be no problem getting them out to you. If not by truck, then I would be willing to go out of my way and ship mice via airline if it must be done, because I want these mice to SPREAD! 

In fact, aren't I send you mice? :lol:


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## jadeguppy

I have to agree with the idea, but disagree with the application. Many of us are very spread out and I think it would be good for the hobby if the genetics were spread out from early on. I'm getting a list together of what people want and will be posting it as everyone finishes pm'ing me. The blacks to improve blues is a good point, but Laigai makes a good point to as to what the goal is; restarting with top quality stock and keeping it that way or working to improve the pet stock that many of us have. A few people that live near each other have already offered to split the color between them to help out. I also don't like the idea of limiting the shipment to only those with the best reputation as experienced. That thinking is part of what got this started. Kingnoel is new to this part of the hobby, but I think he should have every chance to get a trio. Besides, it will benefit the hobby west of the Rockies. I know there is a close knit of people in the upper east coast, but we must remember that the hobby is much more spread out than that and part of the problem has been getting quality mice spread across the country. I still suggest it should be first come first served with care taken for people close to each other to share their order and those that don't get exactly what they want are first on everyone's list when bubs are born.

Rhas, if you can work on getting shipping quotes, I'll work on getting the list organized. Then we can find out what will be avalible and at what cost. At that point, everyone will have a better understanding of what they are getting themselves into. Hopefully by then we will know about shipping within the states.


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## Rhasputin

My feelings are, I'm basically not asking for any mice in the shipment, I -might- ask for a single mouse. But I'm putting money into it all the same.

If say, we got one trio of tans, and they all went to one person, and the person has no experience breeding tans, than how can the other people who wanted tans expect to get good quality mice later on?
If someone were to take them and breed them to a lower quality mouse, and spread those offspring, then the people who waited for the offspring would be getting jipped, since they're getting mice that weren't really what they paid for.

I'm thinking, that I might split off from this and do a shipment specifically with several other east-coasters, and get the varieties that we need over here, and worry about spreading them out to more people afterwards. There are so many people so spread out that want in on this, that it would be a true mess to try to get things straightened out. 
The concept of getting a shipment from europe isn't a new one, it's just we've never gotten to it. Experience with the hairless mice we got recently, tells me that it takes a while to spread the mice even between people living within a few states of one another. This is what's making me think that limiting the original shipment would be better, then work on moving them across the country. It's not that I don't want to give people mice, because I do, that would be the whole point of importing, but there's just no practical way that everyone can get everything they want like this.


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## jadeguppy

Rhas I think you are jumping the gun. You have assumed that what can be sent will be very limited. One of the main points of this is to spread the concentration of good mice past the east coast. That is why we are looking into truckers doing the transportation. We are trying to bring the hobby together.

Here are some of the locations of people listed in the order that they asked to be included (not a complete list, top 10)

NW Florida
Mechanicsville, Virginia
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Hanford, Ca
Aberdeen, Maryland
Wichita, Ks
Fayetteville, Ar
Westminster, Maryland
unknown
Oklahoma City, Ok

We are very spread out and each member has every right not to have the shipment concentrated on the East Coast. Just because they don't prove themselves by going to east coast shows, does not mean they aren't good breeders. Many have choosen to post on this site because of issues with parts of the east coast club. If you do choose to order seperately from the rest of us, I ask thta you wait until this shippment is finished. Otherwise you will be competing with the shippment for avalibility of mice.

p.s. I'm wodering if anyone agrees with the first come idea for how to distribute the mice? Hopefully with foreplanning there will be enough for everyone, but just in case.


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## Rhasputin

I didn't say it was going to be concentrated on the east coast, and you must have missed where I'm already sending mice west on a truck, which regularly transports mice.


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## Laigaie

Rhas, while I appreciate all your offers to help, and I'm sure we all do, first saying that you want to help and then that you want to prevent the majority of folks who've been in this discussion from actually being able to participate until several generations down the line... you might want to take a step back. If new breeders are paying just as much as everyone else, what exactly makes you think they don't deserve mice? Why would people waiting for offspring pay into the original shipment? They have no reason to do so. None at all. Your comments about making sure that only "experienced" and referenced breeders get mice out of the shipment is exactly what's wrong with the American mousing community. If this happens, let me know and I'm all in, but I'm not going to let myself get worked up and angry at people during the planning stage.


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## SarahC

You might be able to just get bucks in some varieties such as red and tans.Instead of 1 x trio to one person 3 x bucks to 3 people.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Rhas I appreciate the willingness to transport out here, definitely.  
Is there any way of estimating the maximum number of mice we can get?

It IS a huge part of the fancy for each individual to see what they can create with what's at hand. I don't know that certain breeders should be favored in the reception of the original mice, unless the object is to create a new litter of F1 that are just as English as the first mice...just to have more to spread. If this makes sense, anyone should be able to do that...just breed a trio, or etc, and spread the babies out to everyone in their respective club/region.

I do understand that if the shipment is recieved on the East coast, it is certainly easier for the mice to stay there, but nothing about the American mouse fancy has been, well, easy. 
For what it is worth, I am willing to breed original mice and send the babies right back to any part of the region via truck.

I hope this doesn't get too complicated. I know everyone wants these English mice, but we really are going to have to find a way to share without resentment or favoritism. Even if everyone only gets a pair, I do think it's important to try our best to give original mice to everyone, and use the F1 as a last resort. We are trying to create community here peeps!


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## Cait

When I shipped to the US the 'crate' could hold 45 mice max if I remember correctly.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Wow. 45! Can we make that work out for everyone guys?


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## Cait

You should ask Jacqueline if that's the same from mainland Europe as she has exported more recently than me I think, but it's not an inconsiderable number. It's a lot easier/cheaper to import to the US from continental Europe than the UK too, as we have lots of silly regulations.


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## tinyhartmouseries

No kidding Mousebreeder? Wow.

40-45 mice leaves 3-4 mice per person if there's ten people in on the shipment. That's at least a trio for everyone, with maybe another buck or something. Does everyone think that is fair and will appropriately level the playing field for all individuals paying for the shipment?


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## Rhasputin

Do we need to get health certificates for all the mice? That might limit the number, if so.

Laigaie, I think you've vastly misunderstood me.


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## Cait

I think you just get one for all the mice so it doesn't make any difference in that sense. One vet fee, and probably a rather bemused vet


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## Rhasputin

That would be great if that's how it works, haha. I can imagine the vet's face. . .


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## jadeguppy

Thanks for the info mousebreeder. I was hoping for those types of numbers. That is about $22-25 per mouse.

I'll pm Jaqueline.


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## MoonfallTheFox

Wait, only 25 per mouse that is shipped? If there's an extra slot in the shipment I might want to claim it. I was imagining a hundred dollar per mouse shipment happening.


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## Rhasputin

What about shipping the mice to one location from the UK, and then immediately sending them off on another flight to another location after some have been removed?

It would cost a bit more, but since we're already going to be spending a ton, why not toss on an extra $150-$200 ish to spread them out that way?
Just tossing out ideas. I'm full of them.


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## jadeguppy

MoonfallTheFox said:


> Wait, only 25 per mouse that is shipped? If there's an extra slot in the shipment I might want to claim it. I was imagining a hundred dollar per mouse shipment happening.


If the shipping cost is as expected and the breeder only asks a few bucks each mouse. However, it doesn't include cost to ship out across the country. However, if the truckers are willing to help the cost will stay low. I do suggest tips for the truckers if they don't charge us.



Rhasputin said:


> What about shipping the mice to one location from the UK, and then immediately sending them off on another flight to another location after some have been removed?
> 
> It would cost a bit more, but since we're already going to be spending a ton, why not toss on an extra $150-$200 ish to spread them out that way?
> Just tossing out ideas. I'm full of them.


That would be a back-up plan. Let me work on the US side of things and get back to you.

Rhas, will you ask Roland if he knows box size and price. I'd check on several airports, including New Orleans and Atlanta as well as the international airport near the D.C. area where several mousers are. Is that one Kennedy?


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## Rhasputin

Once Roland responds, I'll let everyone know.


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## Stina

Casey, so far as I'm aware there's really not anyone in Europe breeding manx... I have manx....but I have another breeder's restrictions to contend with.......

I don't know how I forgot Abyssinian....I've been longing for it since I first heard of it!


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## Rhasputin

That's what I was thinking Stina, as far as manx goes, the numbers are limited on both sides of the pond. It's everywhere in AU though. Poop. :| 
Someone's got to breed it over there, speak up darn you! :lol:

Abys would be a great thing to bring over.


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## Shadowrunner

Working on that trucker lead.

I'm a touch worried about simplifying blues down to blacks because the reason I'm so excited for this is that it's so hard to find -anything- typey where I am. But a typey black is better than nothing so I guess I can try my best .xD

I shipped Rydag and my birds in through BWI(Baltimore/Washington International). They have a ton of traffic through there.

I would love to see the price of a single "crate". If it's workable for both me and the breeders over there, I might be able to sell my camper to fund a second one. That would make the worry a ton less for most of us I think due to the ability to double the mice coming over. (I could probably get 500-800$ for the camper.But in the case that worked I'd hope I would be able to insist on a blue,just one.Trolol. xD)

Hurr durr. It just occured to me my grandfather was one of the best engineers for aberdeen proving grounds. He had a ton of high ranking friends in the airport. Does anyone object to me giving them a call? They might be able to pull some strings and lower our fees or something.
They helped me get the wolfdog in even though normally customs would have had me jumping through hoops.


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## jadeguppy

I say go for it! We need someone that is familiar with the airlines and customs.


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## Rhasputin

Shadowrunner, to make a nice blue, just get a plain ole blue, and breed it to your typey black that you'd in theory be getting. It iwll improve type and colour.


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## Kingnoel

I would definitely be happy if just one trio of tans could make it out here. I'm really pleased to see the overall level of co-operation on this. Thanks for remembering us folks isolated in the west


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## Laigaie

Kingnoel: It sounds like more than a few of us are after tans. I know Tinyhart and I are both working on tans, for example, and Irish and Tinyhart both asked after reds, which help to improve tans with their modifiers. I assume Jadeguppy is also after reds, given that that's what she's been breeding.

Looking at around 40ish mice, and 11ish folks (since I think Rhas said she didn't actually want any?), it'd be easy to do a good number of varieties. If Jadeguppy has each person involved pm a list of how many of what varieties and sexes they'd ideally hope for (with most folks expecting a trio), we could easily put together a list of the whole mess, and see who all will be willing to work with us for those varieties. A good number of the varieties we're looking for are co-working, like blue/black/dove or red/tan, while others like aby or merle or tan might come in one of the colors that person or someone near that person is after. That means we won't have to be after tons of breeders so much as be after a few breeders who've got tons of the right kinds of mice (without bloody contracts obviously). Limiting the number of breeders sending mice will decrease overall chance of illness for the mice involved, as well.

Now that we've got locations, we can help to figure up the mouse train, and see who would hold mice for whom, so as to make a minimum of long drives. Shipping into the US isn't necessarily to any single airport, and indeed, airport choice should probably be based on flight/shipping costs and timings, along with ease of transport within the US. Since the US has quite a few international airports, that leaves more than a few choices. Paying for a single flight into the country and gas from there is more than likely way cheaper and easier on the mice than a flight into the country, opening the box, re-doing all the paperwork for the airlines, and sending the box on another plane. That gets dangerous and expensive, and the last thing any of us wants is a very high-priced box of dead mice.

Jadeguppy: I'll pm you my part of that list, and hopefully that list will be compiled into an overall list marking how many total black tan does, how many tri bucks, etc, for the group to give to the overseas breeders, along with a list of which mice go where once they get here. If we do work out a container that holds 40, and we've got 11ish folks, that gives leeway on folks who want a pair, trio, or quad, or for folks who want a pair of this and a pair of that, or a pair of this and something else, and so forth.


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## sys15

i would also like to participate, if the price is reasonable, and it is still possible to do so. i'm interested in blacks, tans (or reds to improve tans), all the c dilution genes except albino as well as just about anything else with dark eyes and without dorsal markings that isn't commonly available here (white-bellied agouti? pearl? silvered?).

i'm located in fresno, which is just up the road from kingnoel. in fact i drive right by hanford every week.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I am so glad to see that everyone is working so hard on this! I am so excited!!!


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## Shadowrunner

The thing I'm worried about is the absolute crud, my pet typed blues are. However, like I said I can do my best xD. Maybe buy a few descendants down the line when they become available. (If I can find some decent ones to work with to start that wont be a problem at all .I'm actually talking to a few local breeders on getting some.)

I tried calling my grandfather's friends. The only surviving one is out visiting family, So I'm waiting for his reply.I can look up some other things in the morning after the offices open.As for other things, until I can get replies should I work on anything else? I'm full of excited energy with no where to direct it at the moment.

Oh, I am so frustrated,lol.

@-Laigaie
With one crate we are super limited it feels like. 
Have we figured out if there are bigger sizes to these crates or how much just the shipping would be yet? If it is at all possible..I would like to try to get enough money together to add another crate to this. I think that would ensure everyone gets what they need. It's just an idea but it would be really cool if I can pull it off, that's why I'm asking. This is all based on whether or not the breeders will have enough for that amount as well of course. Something to keep in mind as a option I mean.*flail*


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## Stina

I know there is the big show in January in UK......but perhaps this should be planned for further out so that nothing is rushed and there is more time for the european breeders to produce what everyone is looking for. Just a thought....it would also give everyone involved time to save up some cash!


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## sys15

would two crates be double the price of a single, or something less than double? it seems there is more than enough demand to support two (or more) crates.


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## Shadowrunner

Well I'd be willing to sell my camper to cover the cost of most of another one (if it's deemed a good idea and it actually sells) So If I did that I think it would limit an increase on price.At any rate I don't think there has been a set way to up the price either so I'm not too sure.

If we do plan later than in January, I have money coming in around February, so either way it would be cool :3


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## Laigaie

An $800 camper would not cover an additional crate, which would require double the shipping costs, because they're separate containers. If 45 mice seems limiting to you, remember that you're looking at a trio for up to 15 people. With the addition of sys15, you're looking at 12 folks (plus Rhas who I look back to see said she wanted one), which is still a trio for everyone plus quite a few. A trio should be all that's necessary to start a new line (albeit a slow start).

In order to get a quote on shipping, we'll need to have an exact number of mice, an exact size and shape of container, know the costs on the European side (gas, cost of mice, etc), know how much it'll cost us to get the vet approval on both sides of the ocean, know how much each and every bit of paperwork costs in fees, and, of course, where and when exactly the flight will be, and that won't count the in-US transport, since that's different for each location. It's going to be a while before we get an exact total for cost. :? For now, we're getting there.


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## Stina

The huge number of factors involved in getting everything ready is why I think it would probably be best to wait beyond january.....with it also being the dead of winter in january I think that is also a good reason to wait....I know a lot of european mice are accustomed to colder temps, but even so it is a stress factor they probably don't need considering the already very considerable stress of being shipped across the atlantic


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## tinyhartmouseries

Great point Stina!


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## Stina

I just think waiting at least a couple more months (if not until next fall even) would make it much less stressful for EVERYONE involved....I know everyone is anxious to do this, but I don't think it would be a good idea to rush into it.


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## Rhasputin

I was thinking we would wait until at least summer, because we're going to need a lot of planning and collection time.


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## Fraction

I don't have any bias here but bear in mind that if you do go for a second crate of mice, you might be better off waiting for a few months or so at least. It'll be pretty hard for European breeders to gather 80-90 mice, keep them all in one area until they are sent, feed them all, etc.


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## Cait

Not necessarily. If you got one crate of mice from, say, Roland in Germany and another from Jacqueline in Holland, it would be the same amount of effort for each of them as if they were the only one sending mice. Plus you get a wider gene pool.


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## Rhasputin

MouseBreeder said:


> Not necessarily. If you got one crate of mice from, say, Roland in Germany and another from Jacqueline in Holland, it would be the same amount of effort for each of them as if they were the only one sending mice. Plus you get a wider gene pool.


This. If we were to get 2 crates, I think it should definitely come from 2 different areas. This would provide us with lots of different physical attributes to work with, and different genetic modifiers.


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## Rhasputin

Me and a friend have also been looking into getting the recessive manx gene in from Australia for a while. Working on figuring out who would ship.


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## jadeguppy

I'd love the manx from Aus, but I hear it is nearly impossible to improt or export mice there. Many Aus members complain about that.

Rhas and Jacquline are working on box size and cost coming from the Eu. Once we figure out an estimate for that, I can give everyone a better idea on per mouse costs. I currently have 13 people on my list.

I woud like to try for a February or March shipment. I think that will be safer than in the summer time and should give time for some breeding. Younger mice may fit better in the crates as well. If it then takes a month or so to get them out to everyone, they should be about the age to start breeding when they get out of qt.

Laigaie sounds liek she has worked things out for her , tiny, and irish as long as we get the mice to one of them. How far are you from moustress?

We have two people in Ca that are near each other, so one destination shoudl work there.

Many of the NE breeders are close enough to train things to each other, so manybe one or two destinations there.

Is anyone within a couple hours of Paziqi in Michigan?

Then there is me, all by my lonesome. LOL


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## Rhasputin

Jade you're at least near by Mellissa, and she comes to nearly all of the northern mouse shows, so it would be easy to transfer your mice from one of us VA/MD/DC/PA/NY area people, to her, to you.


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## Shadowrunner

I was just mentioning it because it seemed like a few people were getting stressed about resorting to "second gen" mice, instead of everyone getting some of the first mice and how to figure out who gets what without spreading them too thinly or offending other people. I'm also getting around 5,000$ in February as a advance on a book I'm writing, so the camper isn't the only income I have to contribute ;D. I was just mentioning it(second crate) in case having more to work with would be helpful. I could always just get a graphics tablet instead if it's not, lol. I don't care either way. My current mice are crud in type so first gen or not, It would still be an improvement on what I can get now.I hope that came out the way I meant it to. I guess what I was thinking is if we want to SPREAD these mice, we need to have some to spread.xD

I don't have a car of my own, but we have Amtrak train rails all over the place and I know the routes well enough. I could look into dropping mice off in other areas if that helps get to the more isolated people.

(I'm still working on the "organized club" brain. It just occurred to me I may be unintentionally bothering people. Please let me know if that happens. >___<


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## Stina

> I was thinking we would wait until at least summer, because we're going to need a lot of planning and collection time.


The issue with summer is heat...mice are a lot more sensitive to it then cold! Spring or fall would be ideal.


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## jadeguppy

Rhas, Melissa is six hours away by Interstate. When you figure the price of gas in I might as well ship as the price is about the same. She has helped me, but a friend did a mouse train from her to down here for me when he visited about an hour from my house. The truckers are going to be my best solution.

Shadowrunner, please keep the ideas coming. The more involved the better the chances are we can work it out. While I appreciate the offer of money, I'm hoping that it won't be needed.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I think if every person chips in between $200-300, that will be what we need, correct? I am more likely to have this in August and January with school, but I do have it now if we are starting the pot.


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## jadeguppy

Tiny, stash it aside. I prefer not to collect money until we have things more definate and know how many mice are getting shipped.


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## IrisheaglesOne

We also have an international airport here in OKC(Will Rogers International) so if you do decide to do a shipment from east to midwest via plane, maybe it would be a good idea?

I know that Tiny, myself, Laigaie are out here, possibly someone else that Ive missed(sorry if I did) and we can all get mice to each other. We work together with mice alot. If not, our mouse truck comes through every so often too from East to midwest.

As for the west coast, maybe they could get together and pay for plane shipment from the east or if they travel, perhaps travel here or something. Id be glad to hold any mice that need to be held until pickup for someone.

Tiny, Im excited too...this is a once in a lifetime opportunity if it all will come together. You overseas breeders are awesome!!


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## Shadowrunner

I'm trying xD
Anything to make this easier.
Like irisheaglesone said,for some of us this is a once in a lifetime chance. It will make things so much easier for everyone.
At very least it brings us together more.

None of my ideas are panning out as quickly as I'd like but if anyone comes up with more to do I'm up for it. In the mean time I'm wringing my brain,lol.


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## mouselover01

I heard back from Roland. He said he's pretty busy today but will get back to me with info on import. I'll post when I hear more.

As far as importing from AU, I've contacted several government agencies and it is perfectly legal. Emailed AU's QT division and am waiting to hear back. Just joined an AU mouse forum and as soon as I have posting privileges, I'm going to see if I can get in touch with the others who have exported to the US before, because, from what I've read, it's been done.

I'm not sure what AU has besides recessive Manx that we would want/need. Let me know and I can ask those breeders about them when I inquire.

I'll update when I get more info.

thanks


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## Stina

omg manx from AU would be AMAZING! They also have a crazy long hair rat gene that I might literally be willing to kill for...lol I was under the impression that there was some sort of animal importation and/or exportation ban besides dogs, cats, and horses between there and here....but not sure if it was a US ban or an AU ban....... **shrug**


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## MoonfallTheFox

Australia's very strict on bringing things IN, not out. I think.


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## mouselover01

Apparently it's bringing animals INTO the country that's the big deal, from what I've found.

I believe that there was someone who exported rats to the US a while back, and I think the down under rats were originally from AU (from what I've been reading on their forum.

Stina, pm me, we'd probably need to work out a separate shipment for rats from them, and we would need to get some more people in on the shipment if we could. BTW, the little guy I got from you at the show is doing amazing and is my favorite rattie!


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## Shadowrunner

I was talking to my boyfriend this morning (as I often bounce my ideas off of him)
And he brought up a few very worrisome points I wish I could ignore...*wish*
If we have a large amount of stressed out co-ed mice that don't know each other in one crate...what's keeping them from killing each other?
What is this "crate" made of? Can they chew their way out?

I didn't even thing about how they would react to each other. I was too busy trying to figure out some of the logistics. Does anyone else know what I mean?


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## Cait

The crate is divided into internal compartments, so mice can travel in trios (i.e. two does and a buck) and not get to mice from other breeders. You have to specify the importance of the mice not being able to switch compartments though, as when they build the crates they underestimate how good mice are at squeezing through tiny spaces.


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## mouselover01

Taconic makes crates made for international shipping of rodents.

Those crates have dividers throughout the crate so that you can divide up the animals in the crate.

You need to get the one rated for international shipping, as, there is a difference (they told me when I called about them). One is for mice for shipping within the country. The other is better for rats, and that one also has to be used for international shipping.

http://www.taconic.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=296


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## MoonfallTheFox

Also, if these are very young mice who are too young to breed, what happens if they do?


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## SarahY

There are risks of course, but you have to remember that many, many mice have been shipped successfully before now 

I am more concerned that you're only planning on getting a trio of each variety. We all know how susceptible to popping their clogs mice are after moving house, surely one trio each is a bit risky? :shock: I really want this to work for you guys, so I think you need to think about getting less varieties and more than three mice per variety.


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## Laigaie

Nobody's planning on getting just a trio of the variety OVERALL so much as each breeder may only get a trio. If I get a trio and someone else gets a trio, and one of us has trouble getting one of ours to breed, we can swap around.


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## SarahY

Oh I see


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## Shadowrunner

The cages are a relief at least.

I had imagined a big wooden box like they do with quail. But then again, quail don't fight with each other. Not the species I had at least. I need to really work on getting out of bird brain mode.


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## Roland

Rhasputin said:


> Once Roland responds, I'll let everyone know.


I have been off from the forum for some time and today noticed this message.

Thank you. Indeed I have some experience in importing and exporting animals.

Probably all Splashed and Tricolours in Europe are offspring from my lines and I am very happy to see that the breeders in UK and NL and some northern countries do a very good job and do not only keep the quality of colour and type, but even try to improve it. Great!
Many German breeders disappointed me, they started a mass production of Tricolours, which resulted in tiny pet shop mice. Too bad, many typey Tricolour mice were crossed with low quality mice just to multiply and sell them for high prices. The same is true for Recessive Red. They are available everywhere in Europe now and most of them are offspring from my lines, because the European breeders who had rec red before did not share them.

At the moment I am focussing on Merle and it is much more difficult to breed and improve Merle than Tricolours, because Merle is not just a recessive inheritance, there are additional genetic factors involved, probably an unstable factor, meaning that during embryonic development, some of the roan-like cells of the embryo mutate back to the basic color. 
I have some success and will sell several Merle groups again soon. Watch my homepage for information about available mice. I will share MANY merle soon!

Yes, I exported mice to many countries and to the USA too. 
Jack Garcias' Dominant Reds, his Extreme Blacks and his Argente Creams are inbreed mice from my exports to him. I took two days of vaccation to manage the export to Jack in Kentucky. There is only one airport in Germany which will accept animal exports (Frankfurt) and it is a lot of paperwork and timeconsuming s*** to get these things managed. Jack got my mice without paying for the animals, they were a gift. The mice were for free, my time and gas for driving to Frankfurt was for free, it was just my enthusiasm...
I think there is little need to ship dominant reds, extreme blacks, or Argente Creams to the USA again. As far as I know Jack has established my lines very well, so they are available there. Our US friends can use those dominant reds to improve their own tans and other colours. Dominant red is variety with most phaeomelanins and can be used to improve the redness of any other colour, eg recessive red or tan.
At the moment I work on several requests from Asia and Australia, which are my first priority and these guys will use commercial services like http://www.petshipping.com/en , which makes things much easier for me.
Nevertheless, If I can be of help for the project, I will be happy to add my few cents and my experience...

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## SarahY

> I think there is little need to ship dominant reds, extreme blacks, or Argente Creams to the USA again. As far as I know Jack has established my lines very well, so they are available there.


It is unfortunate that the US fanciers with these varieties have little interest in sharing them though  Your reds are very good in many ways, and it wouldn't hurt to have some in the hands of US fanciers who are willing to share their offspring


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## Roland

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17hEcSsv ... re=related


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## Rhasputin

Sarah is correct, the reds have basically not moved, or been used to improve anything at this point.


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## Cait

So you've asked for some and are having to wait, or you've been told that you can't ever have any? Just curious.


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## SarahY

I doubt they would be resorting to paying to import mice if there was a chance they'd ever get some from someone in their own country! :lol: These mice are all owned by a well-known 'clique' and the only way anyone seems to get any is with a non-breeding contract. Selfish behaviour :roll:


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## Rhasputin

I have been told I can never have any. Sarah is correct. 
Though it works out for me because I found a better red that is Avy and will work better for what I'm doing. But we need more people with Ay to enhance other varieties, which they otherwise won't be doing since the reds aren't available to them.


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## Cait

Hmmm, I thought Jack Garcia would have supplied mice to improve the 'fancy' over there, that's all. I didn't realise people were being told quite so flat-out no by everyone, just some breeders. What a shame


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## SarahC

Ditto to the above comments


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## Kingnoel

I've contacted at least a dozen people listed on the AFRMA Website and felt extremely lucky to find what I did. Only one breeder even returned an email and she was getting out to get away from the drama.


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## Rhasputin

Kingnoel said:


> Only one breeder even returned an email and she was getting out to get away from the drama.


That's the story of the US mouse fancy. :|


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## SarahY

I was reading through an American forum earlier and was sad to read a thread where everyone was saying that having to wait _years_ and 'prove' yourself (mostly by saying what the 'clique' want to hear) before being able to have mice of any decent quality was completely normal 

It's fantastic that you guys are all getting together and changing that. Don't let this fall through!


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## Rhasputin

It's going to take a long time to set up, but this will happen.


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## Shadowrunner

Exactly. I've been at this since last April and I STILL only have pet store mice. I've gotten word from a few local breeders on mice they have helped improve, But it's really really difficult for new breeders to even get in on conversations in other forums.Much less get good typed mice. The dismissal of some of the more experienced breeders is sometimes just soul crushing enough to make some people quit before they even start. It's quite sad and unusual to be coming into mice from another fancy. Just finding information on breeding is like running a marathon, god forbid you missed some 3 club approved "secret" book. It's just frustrating.

My meeting with Pat Mc.Grady went well, but he didn't have any information that was useful. He did offer to contact some of his contacts though so (hopefully you guys agree) I told him that would be wonderful. He didn't win senate, but now he is apparently trying for mayor *rolls eyes* He has to know somebody that knows SOMEthing.

So now the retired trucker is back home after his stroke earlier than expected..I'm going over there tomorrow most likely. Maybe he will have something to offer on that end.

Have we gotten any new info or ideas going recently?

This better happen lol. It's the only chance some of us have if we want to get a foot in the door before 5 years go by.


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## moustress

NVM- sorry


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## tinyhartmouseries

Roland, do you realize that Jack has actually refused to share with just about everyone? I don't know if you had the intention of that or not. 

I am glad we are keeping this thread current, it shows big interest!


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## Laigaie

Looking into the animal shipping company Roland suggested, they quoted approx 550Euro, depending on exact date, delivery location, and size of crate (assuming shipping from Frankfurt). Number of animals in said crate should not make a big difference, and it sounded like most final destinations would be in about the same range, cost-wise. I was also reminded that mammals cannot be shipped when temperatures ANYWHERE along the route will be below 20F (-7C). I am trying to determine exactly which fees are and are not included in the 550E, so we can figure out which fees we'll be paying to whom on top of the 550E. Also, 550E currently translates to 737USD or 478GBP, just so everyone has a point of reference. Obviously, as ForEx fluctuates, that usd translation will fluctuate, as well.


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## Cait

That's not bad, cheaper than I expected. Makes me want to get some merles and recessive yellow lol


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## jadeguppy

Roland, do you have some breeders "near" you that have kept the quality of the mouse up that can help provide some if you are short on the numbers we want?

Also, I think figuring out the container to use is the next step. The one posted earlier is very nice, but holds about half the number of mice that we are wanting to ship. Has anyone figured out who is selling the boxes that hold 40+ mice? I''ve asked pet air if they can suggest a company to purchase the crate from and am awaiting a reply. They have been very fast to respond in the past, so I'll probably know on monday.


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## Cait

The box wasn't bought ready-made when I exported, it was made specially by the company handling the paperwork.


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## jadeguppy

Which company was that? Do you have contact info? I'll email them if you do.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Oooh! That is soooo affordable! Let's go Import Team Mouse!


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## Roland

tinyhartmouseries said:


> Roland, do you realize that Jack has actually refused to share with just about everyone? I don't know if you had the intention of that or not.


Of course this is not my intention. Most of you know that I support breeding by linebreeding, not support breeding by simple inbreeding. Therefor I think it is essential to share and cross out sometimes. 
Nevertheless I think Jack is a good person and a very good breeder and I do not like personal attacks against anybody in the public. I did not have any contact to Jack for some time, and to be true, I just lost interest. Nevertheless, if someone has problems with a person or with a group, he/she should use the possibility to write PMs, not use a public forum.

I will be happy to add my knowledge in exporting mice to other continents and especially the USA, as I have just done by telling you the address of Petair, and will by happy to share more knowledge, eg about the paperwork, but please do not use any forum to point a smelling finger on someone. Btw, here is another good company: http://www.petshipping.com/en
Please try to make breeding of animals a great hobby, not a war. You have to walk in his/her shoes for some time...

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## tinyhartmouseries

Understood, R, just wasn't sure if you'd had an agreement or understanding about it. We really appreciate your help in any capacity.


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## Cait

jadeguppy said:


> Which company was that? Do you have contact info? I'll email them if you do.


I just tried going to what I think is their website (wanted to double check before I sent it to you) but I cannot get the page to load. I'll keep trying and post here if I am successful.


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## jadeguppy

Okay. Laigaie has made more progress on the crates as well. I'm also in contact with her via pm to see what we can work out. ONe idea is to ziptie or create a loose crate around two boxes so we can ship them as one crate with two levels. We'll let everyone know how things work out.


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## Cait

I'm having no luck with the website, not sure why. Anyway, if my memory serves it was Air Pets based at Heathrow airport in the UK. Email address is [email protected], phone number is +44 (0)800 371 554. Hope that helps.


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## Shadowrunner

I think it's just the frustration seeping out again ;D

Ok so I'm on the internet ALL day. What can I do to help out more while waiting for these meetings? 
I can do some cruising around online for shipping cages.
I can also ask the bird club about that too if it's okay with you guys 

That price is not bad at all especailly if we all chip in, that's good news.


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## Laigaie

Roland: Nobody's trying to point smelly fingers at anybody, for sure! I'm certain everyone who chooses not to distribute their mice has a reason. I do not fault them for those reasons. They simply are a contributing factor to the group decision to import further mice. If enough people have access to higher-quality mice, we hope that there will be fewer bottlenecks like that in the future. Restricting access just doesn't make sense, if we want to improve as a whole.


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## Roland

Laigaie said:


> Roland: Nobody's trying to point smelly fingers at anybody, for sure! I'm certain everyone who chooses not to distribute their mice has a reason. I do not fault them for those reasons. They simply are a contributing factor to the group decision to import further mice. If enough people have access to higher-quality mice, we hope that there will be fewer bottlenecks like that in the future. Restricting access just doesn't make sense, if we want to improve as a whole.


Great! This makes sense. I agree completely.

Best regards, Roland


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## mouselover01

I agree with everyone here. When it comes to reds, extreme blacks, etc, there is one person who has them, and is not sharing. *shrug*

Roland, I'm the one who emailed you on Casey's behalf. Do you know others near you willing to export to the US that has your mice and have been keeping up with them?

I wish the ones you had already exported to the US were available to other breeders, but that's not the case, so we must resort to importing ourselves in order to make it fair for all other breeders in the US. But we are ready and willing to improve and distribute to other breeders in the US.

Let us know. Thanks


----------



## Roland

Laigaie said:


> Looking into the animal shipping company Roland suggested, they quoted approx 550Euro, depending on exact date, delivery location, and size of crate (assuming shipping from Frankfurt). Number of animals in said crate should not make a big difference, and it sounded like most final destinations would be in about the same range, cost-wise. I was also reminded that mammals cannot be shipped when temperatures ANYWHERE along the route will be below 20F (-7C). I am trying to determine exactly which fees are and are not included in the 550E, so we can figure out which fees we'll be paying to whom on top of the 550E. Also, 550E currently translates to 737USD or 478GBP, just so everyone has a point of reference. Obviously, as ForEx fluctuates, that usd translation will fluctuate, as well.


My experiences with both companies and export differ from the 550 €. You should have a close look to what is really included.

The true costs of a transfer result from several positions:
- the costs of service for the petship company 
-the airfright cage (has to be according to the regulations for transport of rodents)
-the number of cages needed. If you want to send bucks from different lines/breeders, you have to separate them from each other
-costs for the animal lounges and examinations at BOTH airports
- costs for the veterinarian health certificates, which are not older than 7 days before the flight starts. 
- custom costs
- costs for transfer to the airport, if you do not want to drive to Frankfurt yourself. If you do, you should know that there are additional costs at the airports, eg. for parking your car etc.
-the flight costs, depending on the final destination

and last but not least the costs for the animals, if you are not as lucky as Jack, who got my mice for free ;-)

Best regards, Roland








Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## candycorn

Roland said:


> and last but not least the costs for the animals, if you are not as lucky as Jack, who got my mice for free ;-)


It's truly a shame you were so generous to someone who is not at all generous. You truly gifted someone with a great thing only to have chosen someone who will not share his gift. It's tragic really that your kindness and generosity went to someone so selfish that they will not allow any of their stock to spread and thus help an entire country to improve their lines. 
I hope in the future that we can share the Euro lines with more serious breeders instead of allowing the continuing elitist behavior so many get away with now.


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## Roland

candycorn said:


> Roland said:
> 
> 
> 
> and last but not least the costs for the animals, if you are not as lucky as Jack, who got my mice for free ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> It's truly a shame you were so generous to someone who is not at all generous. You truly gifted someone with a great thing only to have chosen someone who will not share his gift. It's tragic really that your kindness and generosity went to someone so selfish that they will not allow any of their stock to spread and thus help an entire country to improve their lines.
> I hope in the future that we can share the Euro lines with more serious breeders instead of allowing the continuing elitist behavior so many get away with now.
Click to expand...

Are you sure? Did you really ask them? I know Jack and Jenny as very good breeders and know them as very kind and very helpful persons. Take care please! Please do not destroy someones "surface"without a very good reason.

I am an old guy with very broad shoulders and little fears of attacks, but others should get much more respect please!

Regards, Roland


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## candycorn

Yep. Jack at least does refuse to sell any of his mice to anyone. They all stay with him. It says so both on his website and in his replys to any inquires.


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## jadeguppy

To answer you, when one member on the other forum said they felt things were elitest because newer breeders were not allowed to buy mice, Jack said that the hobby is elitest and you need to go to shows and let everyone see the mice you have bred before you can be taken serious as someone who won't mess up his mice. That isn't word for word on the second part, but he did use the word elitest. I'm not saying it negative or positive, it just is. That is how he has expressed his feelings on the matter. He has also said that only 3 people in the US have dominate reds. Since he requires breeding contracts on his mice, that slows down the availibility by at least another year. This is the reason for the fustration that has prompted us to want to do a group import.

How much was your last shippment? Are we looks at much more than $1000 US? That is the original figure we were looking for a final amount.


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## Roland

jadeguppy said:


> How much was your last shippment? Are we looks at much more than $1000 US? That is the original figure we were looking for a final amount.


It depends on the location. Thailand was a littlebit more ;-) 1k seems ro be a real figure, if you get into touch with someone willing to pick up the mice, do the paperwork, and carry them to Frankfurt.

Roland


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## Shadowrunner

Worse comes to worse I'm sure I can come up with some extra funds -somewhere-.
A lot of us are just frustrated about how hard it is to get up and running as a good breeder. You have to prove your mice are of decent quality before getting better stock, but you can't breed very decent mice on your own with pet shop stock, so it takes forever, or isn't possible at all.
hense the shippment interest.

I just got done speaking with mr.walt the retired trucker. It's been quite some time since he last did any trucking himself and a lot of his contacts are gone, but he is working with me to come up with a solution. He seems really interested and even offered to do allo the talking on our behalf because he knows how to "speak truck" lol.

I'm also meeting with pat Mc.grady and a few of his contacts later this week. He thinks he might be able to help out with information at the least.

I'll keep you guys updated on my end as soon as any info comes through. I'm out away from home for a few days, but I have acsess to a computer through the library, so that won't be an issue.

;D luck y'all<3


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## SarahY

I know everyone is frustrated with the situation involving show type mice in America, but please refrain from getting too personal with comments. Thank you


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## jadeguppy

Glad to hear it Roland. I think Jacqueline may be interested in helping get the mice to the airport. I know she wants to get some merles.

Sounding good shadow. Things like this take time.

SarahY, I'm not trying to be personal and I understand your concern. Roland asked a question, so I relayed information that the person in question had posted in regards to the issue.


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## mouselover01

I'm biting my tongue, really, I am.


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## Laigaie

When I quote 550E I mean solely the service from the petshipping company. Crates are looking at approx $30ea, and a second crate (if ziptied to the first) will cost only an additional ~100E in service from them, due to increased package size. Thankyou, Roland, for again listing the various costs and fees associated with the venture. When describing the shipping cost, I mean solely the shipping itself. Acquiring the mice, transporting the mice to the airport, the crates themselves (and shipping said crates to breeders), vet papers, and US-specific governmental papers, are also on the list of things to pay for. Animal lounge and flight cost is included in the pet shipping company's fees, along with some "paperwork". Otherwise, why pay them at all?  Dividers (which also cost) within the cage/crates allow them to be divided into four each, making eight total compartments for what is purported to hold a maximum of 40-50 mice (according to the cage company). While that is not enough compartments to divide every single trio, it is enough to make a significant dent in who gets housed with whom for the duration of the transportation. It may be easier to transport them within the US in smaller groups. Also, I realized we may want to re-sell the crates at the end of the venture, on Ebay if none of us want them, to recoup some of the cost.

I'm still having some translation issues in finding out exactly which paperwork is included by the shipping company, but in general, his English is much better than my German, if not as good as Roland's English! :lol: The guy who's been my contact at petshipping.com has been super-awesome about all my silly questions as I try to figure out the best and cheapest way for us to work this out. He also warned me that Taconic, the company with the most dividable and largest containers that are also stackable, has some issues with getting its crates out in a timely fashion. :x It may be necessary to order those well, well, in advance, and have them shipped to whoever is getting them together on the European end. He did also say, however, that if Taconic is unable to get us our crates in time, they have a carpenter who has built boxes to IATA specs before, but, as always, extra costs... :?

Also, I hope it helps folks that I share these updates as I get them. If it stresses you out instead, let me know.


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## mouselover01

I was on the phone with Taconic not too long ago (a month ago maybe) about their crates. As far as within the US, they GUARANTEE a delivery date.

I will probably be purchasing at least one crate, if not more, from them in the next couple of weeks to do a shipment within the US.

I'm not sure if they also guarantee a delivery date with international shipping. If we're worried about the delivery, maybe getting it directly from them and shipping it to Germany ourselves (it'll cost more, but if we NEED those crates).

As far as the $100.00 fee for an extra crate, that's not bad (at least I don't think so). That means we can fit a total of 80-100 mice.

With all the people interested, what is everyone's thoughts about weighing the options of adding a second container? I mean, so far, we're at approx $737 USD (550 E) so adding an additional 100E (134 USD) for an additional 40-50 mice doesn't seem bad to me. Heck, if that's all it'll be, I'll pay the additional shipping to get me some extra mice 

Is there a vet in the area that will do a discount for health checking all the mice at one cost?

When I was looking at shipping within the US, I found 1 vet after calling 20 that would give one flat rate for health checking all the mice. One other gave me a flat rate of about 60 dollars plus 2.00 per mouse for health certificate.

Do we have a good connection in Germany who is willing to help us acquire the mice, transport, etc?

What's the name/link to the shipping company (just curious)?

All in all, I'd call Taconic and speak to their rep. They're very helpful and will even give you a quote and delivery date if you were to purchase TODAY, with no obligation. 

888-822-6642


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## candycorn

This is all fantastic! I am definatly in! I think we need to count the number of people truly interested, figure out what sorts of mice to bring in, and tally rough estimates on trio's of mice. If say we figure out a trio would be a 100/200 dollar investment, I would think that would be well worth it. Then people can decide how many trio's they can afford. I might have missed what we were trying to bring in...but I would certainly be interested in black tans, reds, extreme blacks, siamese, tricolors, merles, LOL even wellbred typey PEWs would be fantastic! I am new to showing myself, so while I would love to have the luxtury of chooseing what variety to work with...so far that has not been an option. Any of the above would just make my day! lol


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## mouselover01

Would it even be that expensive?

80-100 mice for $737 usd plus misc expenses (transport, mice fee, etc).

If it's $1200 for the whole transport, that means $12.00-$15.00 per mouse... meaning $36.00 - $45.00 per trio

Even if the shipment was $2000.00 total, that means $20.00 - $25.00 per mouse... meaning $60.00 - $100.00 per trio

It doesn't sound like the shipment will be $2000 *Shrug*

Anyway,varietiesL
Reds
Black Tans
Siamese
Merles
Extreme Black
Manx if possible


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## Stina

If we are waiting to do it for at least a few months I'd def be in for a trio of abbysinians and a trio e/e red or red bred cinnamons/agouti (assuming color is good) buck, and a trio of ivories


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## Laigaie

No. Be careful about the USD/Euro thing. $ means USD, and there's a hefty difference between 100USD and 100E. Also, that's for a grand total of 40-50 mice (20-25 PER CONTAINER times two containers), not 40-50 per container. Each container (as hopefully Taconic told you) holds a maximum of 20-25 mice. And there are a lot more fees and things that aren't added into the just-the-shipping total (like vet fees!), so don't go guesstimating our total costs down just yet. It's good to hear about guaranteed shipping date, though! That's awesome. I haven't contacted Taconic myself, yet, so I can ask about international shipping when we get there.

We're still ballparking a quite serious figure, and two is probably as many crates as we can get accepted as a single item, since they stack up to six, but aren't easily transported past two. We're also still looking at having to have the shipment once it starts to warm up again, due to the minimum 20F restriction, so we are looking at a good bit of time. At current, jadeguppy is taking down everyone's specifics as far as wanting exactly how many mice of what variety and sex, so that we can get a total list of mice together for breeders who might be interested in working with us. PM her specifically what you're looking for. At last count we had 13 folks? If each got a trio, that'd be 39 of the 40-50, but it can be assumed that some folks will drop out between now and the shipment date, since life happens and nobody can predict the future.


----------



## mouselover01

40-50 mice per crate?

If so:

550 E $737.00 First Crate
100 E = $134.00 Additional Crate

650 E = $871.00 Total to shipping company

+ Additional costs


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## mouselover01

Ah, okay, 40-50 mice total for 2 crates.

What if someone pays for a trio, and that persons trio passes away during shipping?


----------



## Malene

You can ignore my post if you want to. But I'm curious.. Why don't you import mice from the UK instead of Germany?


----------



## Rhasputin

Malene said:


> You can ignore my post if you want to. But I'm curious.. Why don't you import mice from the UK instead of Germany?


We were just keeping Germany as an option, because there is a single breeder there who has almost all of the varieties we'd be interested in getting.


----------



## Stina

Also, as has been mentioned in the thread....it is much more difficult to export from the UK as they have more complex laws/regulations regarding animals shipping


----------



## Roland

Malene said:


> You can ignore my post if you want to. But I'm curious.. Why don't you import mice from the UK instead of Germany?


A very very good idea. For sure I will not be able to send what you just discussed ;-) For example: I do not breed Ay/* anymore, I needed them to breed Golden Agouti and improve the redness of Recessive Reds. They have done their job and now I breed Rec. Reds only, no Dom. Reds anymore.

Best regards, Roland


----------



## Roland

Laigaie said:


> I'm still having some translation issues in finding out exactly which paperwork is included by the shipping company, but in general, his English is much better than my German, if not as good as Roland's English! :lol:


Tatsächlich ist mein Deutsch signifikant besser als mein Englisch :roll: aber ich bemühe mich zu lernen  
LiebeGrüße, Roland


----------



## Laigaie

Indeed, 20-25 mice per crate. Two crates means a total of 40-50 mice. Additional mice would mean an additional shipment, and all that's assuming we work with this shipping company. If we change ship-from locations, we may have to change companies, which will mean new rules, new estimates, etc.

If your mice die, your mice are dead. You paid into the shipment, and got dead mice out of it. It's unlikely, but possible. It's also possible the mice will die after they arrive, but before you are able to utilize them. That's also not something you'd get reimbursed for. There's no way one of us can eat the costs of mice that someone else ordered but that died. The shipment still cost the same, and it's not really any one person's fault. In part, the entire thing is a gamble. This why we want to be careful about temperatures and crates and shipping times.

Was there someone requesting dominant reds? I had not been keeping up with the list. The reds I thought Tinyhart and maybe Irisheagles were after were recessive. To my understanding, the person who had volunteered to get in touch with breeders had not gotten back to us about UK breeders willing to help, and the person who had volunteered to talk to Roland had seemed quite positive. If you won't be able to work with our project this late winter/early spring, Roland, we'll work on estimates elsewhere. We don't mean to pressure you.


----------



## jadeguppy

A few people pm'd wanting reds and others stated e/e or rec.. I was playing with the idea of d. red, but hadn't decided.

We are still at about 13 people.Several live close enogh to each other that they have offered to share f1 bubs.


----------



## Rhasputin

Dominant red, and recessive red were mentioned.

Roland, you can improve tans with recessive red, correct? Can you make sables with recessive red?


----------



## Stina

Any mouse that has heavy pheomelanin (yellow) pigment can be used to improve tans...be it dom or recessive reds, or cinnamons or agouti's from red lines.


----------



## Laigaie

Improving tans with red is really just using the modifiers from the great reds and bringing those into your tan line. Carrying red doesn't help your tans, but all those modifiers will. Since you want the modifiers, not the Ay or e, there shouldn't be a difference. The mechanism of e/e and Ay seem to be effectively the same. On the other hand, Ay lines of red are more established, and so may have better sets of modifiers than the newer e/e lines. That said, some seriously nice reds have come out of e/e lines recently. Also, my guess is still on at/at e/e making a more reliable sable than the traditional Ay/at, though again e/e lines aren't as well-established. I haven't heard of a breeder producing a line of at/at e/e, though.


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## tinyhartmouseries

A lot of my tans are a^t/a E/e now. It does help but I can't seem to get them much darker at this point...
I would be open to the dom reds if they would also help the tans, as you say. 

Wait, just....any kind of reds..I just read back a few pages and I am a bit confused about what's being asked for now, as far as reds.... :?:


----------



## Stina

recessive red is e/e, dominant red is Ay....for improving tans (or any gene where you want to deepen redness) the specific gene does not matter, not does it even actually matter if they are Ay or are or carry e....What matters is that they are from a line that produces good deep reds on a consistent basis. An agouti from a line of good deep dominant reds would be better for improving tan then a light colored Ay mouse. Which is why my request is for deep e/e's (since I'm using the modifiers to darken my e/e x-brindles) or cinnamons/agoutis from a good red (dom or rec) line


----------



## Shadowrunner

I am as well getting confused.
I breed blue selfs and have no interest in reds or merles myself.

Just saying you get dead mice period is a little harsh sounding to me. The only reason any of us would be getting any mice at a lower rate than shipping them solo, is due to cooperation. 
Maybe if someone looses all their mice in shipping, then the ones who did get a trio over successfully could breed a "pure" litter from that trio and offer babies as a replacement.

I mean, what? are they going to be labeled as such and such's trio before they even lship out? Who would claim a dead trio? I would see that scenario playing out very, very badly. I'm just saying that I know I would feel betrayed if everyone in the group walked away happy as pie with what they need, and all they say is "oh well, YOU gambled. You loose. Too bad."

Not saying that's how it would play out, but you get what I mean. We should have something set up *before * they get shipped out just in case that does happen.(just a suggestion)

So are we going with a airline or a animal shipping company?
Just wondering.

Also have we heard anything about breeders? 
Everything seems to be going at stalls and leaps xD


----------



## mouselover01

I agree with you shadowrunner! I mean, we're all getting a SMALL number of mice each. That is risky. If 1 mouse, 2 mice, 3 mice die, someone can lose all of their mice.

What if 6 reds are sold, I have 3 you have three, 3 die... Whose three died?

I like the idea that they should get a pure litter from another trio.

That would stink if one persons mice all died, and we all walked away.


----------



## Kingnoel

As someone kind of far removed from the "main action" (geographically) I'd be more than willing to wait for second (or even third?) generation mice. That could increase numbers for someone and possibly get me more total down the line


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## tinyhartmouseries

OK, I am fine and cool with any Reds we get in. It's all good for me. Actually Dom reds may be the slightest bit more annoying, I am guessing that most of them are Ay/A and I won't see my black tans for a gen or two? But, again, all good.

As far as the whole death issue, I would imagine that we could agree that IF any die, their intended recipient will recieve a trio of F1. I don't find that unreasonable at all. Of course, this would mean that there would have to be someone willing to say..oh..I will wait. That is IF any pass. I have heard that passing during shipment is rare.

The benefits to waiting would be that all mice would have passed quarantine and their hardiness and any particular quirks could be observed and known about before breeding. 
We all know the downside.

Again, it's totally great to have a plan in place, but ussally shipments are successful. This shipment will require some sacrifice for all of us and I think it is wise to ask yourselves, "how much sacrifice am I willing to make in order to get these mice?" This involves obviously, time, money, and possibly getting a color other that what we breed for. It is going to be tough to please all these people but we all need to strive for togetherness on this project. Ok, speech out!


----------



## Shadowrunner

Well I have waited since April of 10 to get anything worth breeding. I'll volunteer right now to wait if it does happen. Assuming the sharing of babies is agreed on. Waiting a little longer in the case of shipping deaths won't be that much longer or harder than it was to wait two years xD You know what I mean?

( I know shipping is usually successful...but I think it would reduce a lot of worry and drama if it did happen to actually say.."yeah, I'll share my babes if yours die")

I've been rooting around online for information but it's hard to get anything substantial without knowing where these guys would be coming from, so I'm going to wait until we have some breeders willing to help before doing anymore info hunting. It doesn't help much anyway. 
I am however excited about this meeting I'm having. I really think I might have something useful by the end of the week. ;D


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## Roland

Stina said:


> recessive red is e/e, dominant red is Ay....for improving tans (or any gene where you want to deepen redness) the specific gene does not matter, not does it even actually matter if they are Ay or are or carry e....What matters is that they are from a line that produces good deep reds on a consistent basis. An agouti from a line of good deep dominant reds would be better for improving tan then a light colored Ay mouse. Which is why my request is for deep e/e's (since I'm using the modifiers to darken my e/e x-brindles) or cinnamons/agoutis from a good red (dom or rec) line


I agree to this position and all others mentioned from Stina here. That's it. The modifiers collected from breeding dom. reds for over 100 years especially in the UK are what counts. You can introduce them to any colour. Even black mice could carry them (but will not show them).

Regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## Roland

Rhasputin said:


> Dominant red, and recessive red were mentioned.
> 
> Roland, you can improve tans with recessive red, correct? Can you make sables with recessive red?


As written before: The first line genes do not matter at all, the second line modifiers collected for over hundred years by our UK friends are the secret.

A/at e/e or a/at e/e sables are different to Ay/at -sables. The Ay-sables have more difference between back and belly. 
No, from my experience the tan rec reds are darker than a/a rec reds, but look different to Ay-sables. Nevertheless they are healthier...

Best regards, Roland


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## mouselover01

Who had free international calling and wants to make a call to Germany for me ;-)

I talked to a friend of mine. She just had a dog imported from Russia. The dog was 40lbs plus the weight of the dogs crate. The shipping, including paperwork was only $1200.00, and that is for 50+ lbs!

Anyway, they used Delta. I called up Delta and they do international shipping. I got the number for the Frankfurt Delta.

It's not toll free. They said they have at least one person there that speaks English.

499695968190

I'm going to see if I have international calling on any of my phones. Maybe magicjack?

If not, can anyone make the call and get the info?


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## Laigaie

Shipping dogs, unfortunately, is completely different from shipping animals that aren't dogs or cats. I'm sorry to have to shut you down so quickly, but the paperwork and costs involved are, unfortunately, quite different. Part of it seems to be airlines and their issues with rodents in general (some airlines refuse altogether), and another part seems to be how streamlined the governmental part of that is for dogs and cats. Because they're so commonly shipped, and because the health issues related to shipping them are so easy to handle (does it have a rabies vacc? does it have a vet check? we're good), the costs in general are much lower. Having attempted to ship rats in the US before, I vaguely remember that Delta wouldn't ship them, even as cargo. Something about their "offensive animals" rule and rats and mice being assumed to be dangerous to airlines if they escape. Looking on their website, it's rather vague. Continental appears to be the cheapest way to transport mice from most international airports in the EU to most international airports in the US. They also have nice animal lounges in rather more cities than Delta, so that the mice aren't sitting on the tarmac unprotected between flights. Delta has them, but only in major hubs, and we don't know the exact path of the plane until we have a final date for the shipment. We pay for the lounge, but it's much safer for the temperature-sensitive animals.

Death during shipment does appear to be rare, both from reports of fanciers shipping and from lab reports of shipping. They do not anticipate losses when calculating the number of mice to ship. That said, if I'm the only one wanting a (for random example) blue merle buck (or whatever) and the only blue merle buck dies, I don't see how I could expect that someone else would cover my blue merle buck's part of that shipment. I asked for him. If I hadn't, someone else could've filled that spot with their mouse that they wanted, and assuming that we won't run into many breeders wanting to be a part of this for free, that mouse will have cost something even aside from the slot in the box he's taking up. I agree that it's rare, but I also know that plenty of things are going to have to be paid for up-front, and if someone isn't aware of the potential risk, they could easily assume that it's risk-free. That's the kind of disastrous result that nobody wants to deal with, so I'd rather put it out there now.

At some point, we'll have to figure out when and how we'll pay into this. For now, I was assuming that we'll base individual contribution on an estimate of total shared cost divided into individual portions (shipment fees divided by total number of mice, then multiplied by number of mice you're getting), plus individual costs (price of your mice from breeder + transportation to you). That's not super-important for a good long time, but I found myself randomly thinking about this while doing inventory at work.


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## mouselover01

Well, I called Delta, and told them I wanted to ship mice from Germany here and they did not say anything along the lines of "we don't do that".

And I do know very much about shipping animals domestic. I've done it on several occasions, specifically with sugar gliders, an animal that most people know nothing about. Exotics have more of a stigma when it comes to "we can't do that" than mice and rats (i would think), because most people in the airline industry don't know what the heck a sugar glider is.

I wouldn't totally write it off because you had one mere bad experience with delta once. It's a perfectly logical and good idea, and we should aim to try all angles.

No harm in trying right...?


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## sys15

if everyone wants reds simply to improve tans, why not just import nice reddish tans to start with and skip the reds altogether?


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## m137b

I've been wondering that myself, there's more to a good tan than just intensity of the belly pigment, wouldn't actual good tans yield better results?

I'm also curious why so many people want tricolors imported. There are many breeders here in the states with tricolor and splashed, wouldn't something like cremes or pews be better since they would be beneficial to more than one variety. Tricolors are only good for tricolors, they can't be used to improve any other varieties. But cremes or pew's could be used to improve many other varieties including splashed/tricolor.


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## Rhasputin

sys15 said:


> if everyone wants reds simply to improve tans, why not just import nice reddish tans to start with and skip the reds altogether?


It would be a good idea to import reds, blacks, and tans, rather than just tans, because the red and black can be used to improve other varieties as well as tan. 
In the US we need the concentrated red pigment, to improve on many varieties. Including red, sable, tans, agouti, brindles. . . And the blacks can be used to improve black, blue, chocolate, merle, black tans, many things.


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## Kingnoel

m137b said:


> I've been wondering that myself, there's more to a good tan than just intensity of the belly pigment, wouldn't actual good tans yield better results?
> 
> I'm also curious why so many people want tricolors imported. There are many breeders here in the states with tricolor and splashed, wouldn't something like cremes or pews be better since they would be beneficial to more than one variety. Tricolors are only good for tricolors, they can't be used to improve any other varieties. But cremes or pew's could be used to improve many other varieties including splashed/tricolor.


I think people want tricolors to help break the hold that breeders here seem to have. That's what got the importing thread started.

I do agree some nice PEWs or others that are more useful in the long run should be brought in.
Could Jadeguppy maybe post our top 5 or 6 requests? I've only seen unofficial lists I think and it would be nice to see just what the top picks are. Seems (to me anyways) it would be time to start to finalize that list. Hard to go to the breeders over there until we're in agreement


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## Rhasputin

Tri colours are available from tons of breeders.


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## Stina

Agreed...decent tris are one variety not difficult to get a hold of. Ivories and bieges would be much more useful then tri itself. The splashed gene is easy to find in the US...as is piebald...type is what is a little more difficult to find...so super typey non-splashed mice would be much more beneficial to the US fancy than importing actual tricolors.


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## Laigaie

If you want to deal with getting an estimate for shipping via Delta, go right ahead. My one bad experience was several hours of arguing over the phone with a variety of Delta employees, so, no, I don't feel like doing that again.  I hope you'll understand why. That said, I see no reason for you not to get another estimate, so long as we know what each estimate pays for, and what it will cost to get the rest. That way, the group can figure out what's most reasonable. :book4

Also, if you don't want tri's, don't order them. If you think tans are more helpful than reds, go right ahead and ask for what you think is most helpful to you. Once we have a complete list, we can contact breeders in earnest, so as to acquire what people need. I trust each breeder in this group to know their own breeding plans, understand their own mice, and to make a reasonable judgement for themselves. From what I can tell, you're all smart monkeys. :lol:


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## mouselover01

Sounds good.

So my question still holds, anyone willing to make a phone call to Germany to find out? I provided the info 

I have ok tri colors and am more than willing to share, even ship across the country/rodent train if anyone wants future litters.


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## jadeguppy

I just woke up from a illness induced slumber, so I'll have to get back with you on the list. Many people sent me three different wishes, which I don't think we can accomidate, but that may help see what others in their area want.

For tris, they seem concentrated in certain parts of the country. It took me six months to get some splashes. To each what their area of country calls for.


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## Rhasputin

I am sending tri colours to . . . someone. I can't remember if it's Tiny, or someone else. But they're going west. If there is interest in tri colours, now would be a good time to say something, because there's a truck transporting soon, and tri colours are readily available.


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## tinyhartmouseries

K I think they will be coming to me but ending up with Angela...!


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## Rhasputin

Please let me know if someone else wants splashed or tri out there. I have some stuff sitting around that would go. I could even send out a hairless!

Oh I'm also going to send some super typed mice out there. At least one buck and doe, so that there's at least a breeding pair, and you guys can make more.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Yaaaay!
I have little to no desire, oddly, to work with tris as anything other than pets for me. I am letting Angela take charge there, lol, and just adopting a few from her. I will be plenty busy with Merle 2012! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Stina

I just don't see why anyone would want to bother with importing actual tris when it is highly likely that they will not have as good of type as the pale c-diluted mice that have been bred in europe for 200 years...the splash gene is new to europe, and while I know extensive improvements have been made, it would probably still be much more useful to anyone who wants to work with tri, to get beige or ivory.....remember that we have to move all these mice around the country after they are imported, and many of those who will be getting mice also have mice with some of the other desired genes, such as splashed and piebald. If the european mice are flying into the east coast, there are several people with decent tris in the region that could probably send some along with the european mice. I just think it would be more useful as a whole to the US mouse fancy (and even to those specifically intrested in tricolors) to bring in genetics that are harder to find than splashed....the typiest of ivories would be more useful for good tris in the US then actual european tris.


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## sys15

Stina said:


> the pale c-diluted mice that have been bred in europe for 200 years...


this is more along my own thinking, except with regard to type. there may be plenty of animals carrying extreme dilute, himalayan and chinchilla in the us, but none that anyone that is willing to sell me some, as far as i can tell.

other rare or completely unavailable genes would also be extremely appealing, if there is any way to get them. things like leaden, pearl, silvered, etc.


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## Rhasputin

It would be fantastic to import pearl and silvered, just so we have the genes over here. . . 
Maybe that's where my money will go. I wouldn't want to keep them here, but I would be willing to breed a litter or two, and spread them out to other breeders, so that the genes are readily available in the US.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Ohhh! Silvered!!!


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## Rhasputin

Would it be difficult to include zebra mice in the shipment?


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## Stina

I would think other species would be harder to import since they are not considered domestic...though it would be awesome to import blue agouti pygmies...lol


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## Laigaie

A mixed-species shipment, would, indeed, greatly alter the paperwork. They would require a separate crate, separate vet certificates, etc.


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## mouselover01

Wouldn't mice require separate vet certificates? Can't they only fit a certain amount of mice on one certificate (around 10)?

On of the vets I use for pre-shipping certificates does one certificate per mouse, and it's $2.00 extra per certificate.


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## Laigaie

Pre-shipping certificates are normally charged as a flat fee plus a per-unit fee, yes. My concern was adding another flat fee, plus finding a vet who was confident in creating certificates for exotics. Regardless, we can't really add another crate to the shipment, without incurring the extra crate as a separate shipment, or a much larger additional fee for the increase in size.


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## Roland

Simple things start to get a problem for shipping sometimes: USA and Australia customs do not allow shipments of rodents to enter their states, when there is any hay or straw added to the transport cages, because they fear plant-diseases to come in... Just use shredded paper instead.
You just have to know it, it is no problem, when you know it before, but a problem, when the mice are in hay and already at the border. ;-)

Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red


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## Laigaie

Another source of "foreign plant material" problems, according to the APHIS folks I talked to, is feed. Including dog food with a shipped dog is no problem. Including grains with a shipped mouse can be. I'm still not entirely sure what they think the difference is, but that's life.


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## jadeguppy

Probably because the dog food is processed and more likely to have killed the problem during processing. Thankfully it will be an overnight shipment.


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## Shadowrunner

Would lab blocks be a problem in that case? those are also developed to get where they are.


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## mouselover01

What would be used for moisture, or would you pre-soak the block/pellet food with water prior to shipping?

I'm assuming fruit is 100% no-no for international shipping


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## sys15

don't know if they would violate any plant material restrictions, but i've had rodents shipped to me before with potatoes for moisture. worked well.


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## Stina

I think you can actually use the gel stuff like they use for crickets...that what the lab mice I got from california were shipped with...


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## Cait

I used stale bread soaked in water. I tested it beforehand and it was still wet after over 24 hours. Along with that they had my normal mouse mix, which contained oats, barley, bird seed and dog food, with no issues.


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## Shadowrunner

They have the hydrogel stuff the labs use for shipping too. Not sure where to get it from.

All of my meetings are a bust.
The men with mc.grady knew things that would help if we were shipping things like marmosets or zebras, but nothing like mice. *rolls eyes*
The trucker is still telling me he can help out but I doubt it.

Have we gotten any info on breeders willing to help out on the other side of this ? :3


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## Laigaie

Gel packs for shipping hydration are purchased from the same folks as the crates. We'll contact breeders when we have a complete list of what people want. *Jadeguppy* has been accumulating your pms listing what varieties and sexes each of us is after. Do we have enough of a list to know approx how many of each?


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## Kingnoel

If the crate handles 45-50 mice maybe we should consider going with 9-10 each of the top 5 varieties? That might give a nice size nucleus of those to breed and spread around.

Just a suggestion, it's been hinted at several times by breeders that we limit our total number of varieties


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## mouselover01

I agree, I don't think we need to specifically "limit" the varieties we bring in all-in-all, but THIS shipment, maybe we bring in few varieties, but more of them
(so 10 black tans, 10 merles, or whatever) instead of 3 of this 3 of that.

Then, if the first shipment is successful, we can bring in more varieties.


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## Laigaie

Why? People keep suggesting it, but I haven't seen any reason to tell a breeder who's looking for a certain type of mouse that they're wrong, and these other breeders know better than they do what they need to improve their mice, thereby improving the overall quality of mice in the US. If they're paying into it, the organizers should work just as hard for them as for everyone else. I guess I'm failing to understand something that seems very important to everyone else.


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## jadeguppy

I think limiting the types imported is based on the idea that some may die so you are stacking your odds that the particular type survives to be shared. Since it is rare for mice to die in the transit, I'm not fully sold on the idea either. Counting on a second group shipment isn't something I'm ready to do either.


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## SarahY

> I think limiting the types imported is based on the idea that some may die so you are stacking your odds that the particular type survives to be shared. Since it is rare for mice to die in the transit, I'm not fully sold on the idea either.


It's not when they are in transit that is the problem. Mice will travel very well but often move a couple of hours down the road only to die within the following fortnight. It is a big very risk to expect all of the mice you are importing to survive and breed, it is better in my opinion to make sure you have back-ups or it will all be for nothing. If I were importing mice (which I'm not, so this only my opinion and you don't have to pay it any mind) I would be getting three trios of a single variety, minimum.


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## Rhasputin

I have to agree with Sarah. It would be impractical to import a single trio or less of many varieties, and much more likely to be a success if we import 3 trios of a few varieties.


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## SarahY

The other thing which I feel everyone needs to think about is that you're doing this for *the American mouse fancy*, NOT for each individual breeder. You desperately need certain varieties to bring your mice up to fantastic standards (reds being foremost in my mind for colour, but also varieties like champagne and PEW for improving type across the board) and others that you're talking about getting already exist in America and are even found in petshops (merles, blues, etc). They just need some hard work so why take up space you could use for mice you actually *need*?

I'm sorry for butting in, I know this is none of my business really. I just feel really strongly about this because I want this to work for you guys so badly xx


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## Kingnoel

I hope no one minds you "butting in" Sarah, I know I don't. We all want this to work out best and we may be getting ahead of ourselves in worrying about how many varieties. We need to see the list from Jadeguppy to see how wide it is spread. There may be a short list of the most popular (that has something for everyone) and this may be the least of our worries.

I agree we need to think hard about whether we're doing this on just a personal level or more for the good of the fancy. I could easily be persuaded to change my mind to benefit the group. Like many of you I think, improving type is top of my list.


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## Laigaie

I also don't mind you butting in, but I see a major problem with the idea that we're doing this for the American Mouse Fancy as a whole, without taking into account the individual breeders who make up the collective. I feel that it's not difficult to do both. I also feel it's not difficult to improve the type of American mice with even the least-typey show-quality European mouse. While it's true that certain varieties like merle or blue are available in petshops, the quality of those mice is basically nil.
The second issue I have is perhaps one of perspective. You see, we can import mice that we think will improve the fancy as a whole, but if the breeder who's paying for them isn't interested in that variety (or using that variety to improve their own), there's no sense in wasting the mice by sending them their direction. You can tell a beginning breeder all day long that their best chance is to get into big typey pews by buying a trio and effectively duplicating existing mice, but if they really truly love siamese, you've wasted your time and their money. What's more, if an individual breeder can't afford to buy in for nine mice worth of the shipment (three trios), there's no sense in telling them that's the minimum. While, certainly, there's a good chance that some of these mice won't be able to handle American germs or New Shed Syndrome, that's a risk whether you bring three mice or nine mice into a house. By having more breeders as a part of the group, we increase the probability that some of them won't have disease in their homes, and that their conditions will be compatible. We also significantly increase the chances that these folks will re-share the mice produced from the shipped mice. Sending nine mice to five homes is a different kind of risk from sending three mice to fifteen homes. They're both risky, and I personally feel that trusting individual breeders to know what they can contribute to the American Mouse Fancy, and spreading out the mice themselves, is our best option.


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## Rhasputin

I think it would be best if we set up a list. Here's what we're getting, who wants to buy into it?

Importing blues and merles -is- a waste. When importing blacks would improve both varieties, and more.


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## SarahY

Laigaie, I wasn't suggesting that one breeder should have all three trios of one variety  One trio to each person lessens the risk of a variety dying out as soon as it's arrived in your country. Don't you think it's better for three people to have reds and three people to have blacks, and so on, until there are lots and lots to spread about? Then if one person's trio dies or refuses to breed, you still have two more people with them.


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## mouselover01

This is just an idea. BUT...

Say we have 20 people interested. Instead of bickering about what to import, since everyone wants something different, how about we import with smaller groups and more shipments.

Sure, it would be more expensive, but, instead of importing say, in March, how about we save our money and import in May.

That way, we can go in with as little as 1 other person, or as most as 3 other people. If the shipment is $2000 between 4 people, that's $500 each. If that gives us 50 mice per shipment, that's more mice per person.

As much as we want to do this to help the fancy, we also have to think about the large amount of money each breeder is contributing to this and I think each breeder has to get some say in what they want, no?

I agree with the point someone else said, if we want a certain variety of mouse, and that's not coming over, it's kind of a bummer to the breeder who is forking up $200.00, don't you think?

Some breeders don't mind what comes over. That's a different story.

But, maybe we can do smaller group imports with people in our area.

Like, for instance, Stina, me, casey are all geographically in the same area.

Maybe a few of you are within 10 hour drive?

If it's a dumb idea, please ignore  It just might wind up making it easier.


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## Stina

Personally the reason I'm interested in doing a decent sized group import is because I can't and won't be able to afford $500


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## Kingnoel

I'm afraid the problem there is getting help from the breeders with multiple shipments. It is a lot of work for somebody on the other end.


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## BlackCat99

is it to late to join in? I would love to know more and possibly get some miceys


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## Rhasputin

I think anyone should be able to save up $500. . . 
It would be hard for me, because I barely have a job, where I only get paid on commission work, and it would be the second largest amount of money I've ever had at one time but I -know- I -could- do it.


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## mouselover01

You just have to say, instead of dropping the $300 on a 10 person shipment where you get only 3 mice, let me save my money another 2 months, and add a little to it.

It's like, 25/week for 2 months. Or $16.65 a week for 3 months to make your $300 turn into $500 :-D

I'm the most horrible person when it comes to budgeting, but even *I* can do that...


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## Laigaie

*Rhasputin*, *mouselover01*, while I'm financially in a position to save up $500 over the course of a great, great many months, I recently was not. You may not be aware, but the US is currently in rather dire straits as far as our economy stands. I don't want to get political on this forum, but I see no reason why mousing in the US should be restricted to persons who can save up such a massive sum. I spend maybe that much on rent+bills+gasoline in a month. Maybe.

We are making a list. Jadeguppy is keeping that list. If you would like to add to that list, pm her. I feel like I keep repeating myself with this statement.

If you want to split a smaller shipment with just you and another person, you're more than welcome to do that. I doubt that anyone here would want to stop you. To my understanding, the purpose of this shipment was to get together a bunch of people who would not normally be able to import mice on their own, import the mice they need to improve what they can be for the US mousing community, and share the costs of that venture, in order to simultaneously improve the US mousing community by improving both in quantity in quality the mice available. Splitting into many smaller shipments would not improve our ability to achieve that purpose.

While, yes, *SarahY*, I think that once we have the list, it is advisable to bundle varieties and make sure that not just one person is importing a very few mice, I also don't want to stop that one person who's doing something different from everyone else. That one person is contributing something different to the US mousing community than the people around them. I do agree, however, that once we have the list complete (has everyone pm'd Jadeguppy?) we can check back with folks and ask if related varieties will help as well. Show blacks with great color coverage, for example, for someone who wants to improve blues. Big typey creams for the people working on splashed. That kind of thing makes sense. I don't see the point in excluding them or overruling them if they disagree, though.


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## moustress

Waiting for warmer weather would be a good idea. One can't trust that the mousies won't get lift in an unheated area for long enough for them to get thoroughly chilled, and extreme changes of temp are not good, regardless of what temps the mousies are used to to start out with.


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## jadeguppy

Laigaie said:


> *Rhasputin*, *mouselover01*, while I'm financially in a position to save up $500 over the course of a great, great many months, I recently was not. You may not be aware, but the US is currently in rather dire straits as far as our economy stands. I don't want to get political on this forum, but I see no reason why mousing in the US should be restricted to persons who can save up such a massive sum. I spend maybe that much on rent+bills+gasoline in a month. Maybe.


I completly agree. Telling someone else what they should be able to save up lacks insight, empathy, and honestly sounds rude and elitest. I am many people I know took paycuts this year. I know families where both parents have lost their jobs and can't even find a burger joint that is hiring. I can't stand the idea that everyone should be able to have extra cash, especially in this economy. I've been snubbed by others for not spending hundreds to over a thousand dollars to go to a mouse show so I could prove that I'm a serious breeder. I feel that mentality is selfish, egocentric, and elitist. I refuse to support it.

Here is the working list right now. Some peope mentioned multiple types with a favorite or a mention of this one or that one. I'm just listing the varieties and numbers as a whole. I figure we can match up with people near each other and narrow the list as we go. No need to short change ourselves before we get started. 

siamese (4)
tans (5)
chinchilla (1)
dominate red (6) count may be off due to e/e vs. dominate red wording
blue (2)
black (2)
merle (4-5)
recessive yellow (2)
extreme black (2)
manx (2)
dove (1)
pew (1)
ivory (2)
x-brindle (1)
abys (1)
ivories (2)
tricolor (4)

People I have a lsit from: jadeguppy, Kingnoel, shadowrunner, tinyhartmouseries, mouselover, irisheaglesone, paziqi, stina, candycorn, blackcat99

There are others who have expressed interest, but haven't sent a wish list.

Laigaie, I seem to have erased your pm when I needed to open space for on hold pms. I must have confused it with an older pm between us. Will you please resend your list.


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## BlackCat99

I am with you jadeguppy and like I said in the PM I sent you I would be happy to kick in some cash for the group to get the uk mice and just get bubs from the US breeders current stock since I know all the types I want are available through breeders here and pretty much everything is an improvement on my stock lol that way you guys can get more UK mice to the breeders who will do more with them than I will


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## jadeguppy

thanks Blackcat
There are two Ca breeders who are also wanting to import. If you are all within a reasonable distance of each other, you three could probably work out something for trading f1 generations so you get more variety.


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## BlackCat99

I know I am like 5hrs north of one not sure where the other one is lol but that would be cool even ones that aren't related to the uk ones would be good at this point as I only have 5 mice right now and am trying to avoid bringing in more pet store stock  while I don't show I still want nice mice


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## tinyhartmouseries

I can push $200-$300 at any given time. I don't know how feasible $500 is, especially when considering that $500 is a nice treat for me AND my husband, whereas, he is not into mousing and would gain nothing from a rather considerable accumulation of our money. I like to be considerate of his feelings too, and I can't help thinking that he'd much rather spend $500 on something we both enjoy.
As I have said before, I will wait for f1s (and pay less) if we need to do so, but ONLY f1s....

I would also be into the idea of extreme blacks, that would definitely improve a lot of varieties over here. Even if you work with pet store mice and breed in the show mice, it should only take a few gens to improve something like blue or merle.


----------



## Rhasputin

The extreme black gene itself would not improve anything. What we need is good blacks.


----------



## mouselover01

"You may not be aware, but the US is currently in rather dire straits as far as our economy stands."

Was this meant to be sarcasm?

Our point was, if you can save up 300 to get 3 mice, *IS IT*? that hard to save up 200 more?

It was more of a *question *that people should consider, since $300 will get us 3 mice in the shipment (or so it seems)...

It's all about working the numbers.

*Jadeguppy. I agree, telling someone to save up $500.00 IS IN FACT very rude! I agree with you 100%. I'm glad no one here did that! That would be incredibly rude.*

I personally do not have a job. We had to leave our other house vacant in another state, and we're living off of my boyfriends income, which isn't a ton. Our management team just told us that they decided they will not rent our house to anyone until we give them nearly $10,000 to fix the house up. So now we have to either pay them, which we can't, or now sit and wait for our 1 year contract to be up, while paying them a management fees and property maintenance fees.

I have a bit of experience in the "not much money" department 

I'm definitely not telling anyone to do things beyond their means, but merely giving a suggestion, as my post said.  : ) 
I just figured I'd bring something up, that some may not have thought of :-D


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## mouselover01

Also, curious, I see the list. Which mice go to which people once the shipment gets in?


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## Shadowrunner

A stupid question here.

Are you counting mice on the list or people interested in those types of colors? @[email protected]


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## Stina

> Our point was, if you can save up 300 to get 3 mice, *IS IT*? that hard to save up 200 more?


I'm not seeing how that adds up....how could it be $300 for 3 mice if over 10 people are getting mice, and "only" $500 if only 2 or 3 people go in ??...


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## mouselover01

I'm not sure. But it was mentioned it would be about $250-$300 per person for this shipment.

Plus, the cost of getting the mice to people across the country (which is another $200.00 if you ship airline).

I'm figuring a max of $2000 so if you go in with 4 people that's 13 mice per person, $38.46 per mouse.

I'm not sure if the $250-$300 was an estimate or not but I don't think it should be that expensive per person. BUT, if we get mice here and they need to be shipped, the people needing them on the other side of the country will need to pay an additional $200.00 to get them there.
(again, that's if we don't have people delivering them free).

*shrug* we have no concrete numbers.


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## jadeguppy

People are wanting trios of mice. THe number after the variety is how many people have that variety on their wish list. Sorry for the confusion. If a list of variety and people's names is wanted, I can post that too.


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## Laigaie

A list by person seems like it would probably not be advisable, Jadeguppy, given how argumentative some folks are about which varieties aren't "worth getting". Was everyone after exactly three of each of those? That seems like an awful lot more folks than we'd originally intended... that's forty-two trios. 126 mice?! :shock: I think something got confused in translation... How about a count of how many mice by variety? Or were people not pming you in that kind of specificity? Also, I will dig up the pm I sent you, as Tinyhart, Irisheagles, and I had tried to work it so that between the three of us we'd have a mixture of reds and tans, and I honestly don't remember what I'd ended up with.


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## Rhasputin

A discussion is different than an argument. We're trying to make sure that this benefits everyone, and not just fulfills some people's wants.


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## jadeguppy

Laigaie said:


> A list by person seems like it would probably not be advisable, Jadeguppy, given how argumentative some folks are about which varieties aren't "worth getting".
> 
> That would be why I didn't post names. I'm concerned about someone feeling intimidated if told they shouldn't get that type.
> 
> Was everyone after exactly three of each of those? That seems like an awful lot more folks than we'd originally intended... that's forty-two trios. 126 mice?! :shock: I think something got confused in translation... How about a count of how many mice by variety? Or were people not pming you in that kind of specificity?
> 
> Everyone sent two or more varieties on their wish list. Some specific trios, but others didn't. I think the types can start to be narrowed down as people talk to those near enough to them and decide what they can share in regards to f1 generations. However, the current list is useful to see what is most popular amoungst us all.
> 
> Also, I will dig up the pm I sent you, as Tinyhart, Irisheagles, and I had tried to work it so that between the three of us we'd have a mixture of reds and tans, and I honestly don't remember what I'd ended up with.


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## Kingnoel

Maybe we should have everybody resubmit but with just their top two picks? It seems we need to trim this list down somehow and not step on anyone's toes. If everyone submitted their top two trios and there are 10-11 of us that would give about sixty mice total. Surely then duplicates would be easy to share and therefore trim the list down to 50. This would ensure everyone would have an equal say and we'd all get at least two trios to work with.

We could take the time to also talk with others near us and coordinate what to ask for as small "geographic groups".


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## Laigaie

There were thirteen of us looking at being part of the shipment when I last checked in. If each of those folks were looking for a trio, that's 39 mice, leaving very very few mouse-slots open. I believe some folks have asked if there were still slots since I last counted. There is not space for everyone to get six mice, unless half the folks drop out and the remainder can afford to double their contribution. Really, if people want their mice divided as much as they've suggested, we should stay closer to the forty-mouse lower limit than the fifty-mouse upper limit, as a lot of dividers and a hydration pack in each of those divided sections will take up a lot of floor space. If each person resubmits with exactly which mice they want (two female black tans and one male black tan, for example, or two female recessive reds and one black tan male), we can get a more accurate list to use contacting breeders. We really need to get a move on this if we want to ship this spring before it gets hot. I know it seems a long way off, since it's only just now starting to snow, but there's a lot to do.


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## Rhasputin

On a side note, is anyone interested in going in on a slightly more expensive shipment to get recessive manx from AU?


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## Kingnoel

Laigaie, I think the one trio idea is very good and agree we need to keep moving along if we want this to happen by summer.

Jadeguppy are you still interested in coordinating the list? I know we all appreciate your time and effort


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## Stina

They shouldn't all need to be split up into trios...if the mice are young enough, groups of the same variety can all go in the same sections. One trio for each person is awefully few mice...especially for people interested in varieties that others aren't interested in or if no one else in their region is interested (like me, interested in abyssinian since it seems no one else is! and I know of no one else in the US with them...I know someone who used to, but lost all of hers  )....one trio in the entire country, or even half the country, is awefully risky. Perhaps it would be possible to split this into 2 shipments....one in the spring and one in the fall? One of them more "east coast" and one more central/west? That way more people could get more mice and it would be less expensive to spread them to those that want them. I, personally, would have no problem waiting till fall (would almost prefer it b/c it would be easier for me to afford then).


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## BlackCat99

I read previously that the crates can be stacked would we be able to do more than two crates? how much would that really add to the cost?


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## Stina

They can be stacked to 2. Any additional sets of 2 would cost just as much to ship as the first 2......besides that, it would be a LOT of mice for the EU breeders to have at once


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## BlackCat99

oh true... hmmmm ok


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## jadeguppy

I'm good with continuing to keep track of the wish list.

I like the idea of working with the EU breeders to time it so that the bubs are only about 4 weeks old so multiple trios can be in the same compartment. I'm much less worried about a accidental pregnancy than two fully mature bucks killing each other. Young ones should be fine for the trip over.


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## SarahY

Do you not think that shipping mice at four weeks old is rather inhumane? :? There's no way I'd let mice leave my stud at four weeks old :shock:

Also, you'd have to wait eight weeks before you can breed them... big risk.


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## Rhasputin

I usually don't even wean my mice at 4 weeks.


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## jadeguppy

Four weeks was a round about number. I figured if it was safe to seperate from the mother, they would be safe to ship. Older of course would be better, but we were looking at being about to ship trios in the same compartment. It seems to me more humane to ship younger mice that way than fully mature ones that may fight. The whole situation does put us in a "between a rock and a hard place" type of situation.


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## SarahY

I don't think it's that humane to cram them in like sardines either...


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## jadeguppy

I hope no one was implying packing them that tight. My understanding was that they would actually have more room due to fewer dividers in multiple trios were in the same compartment.


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## Cait

Even if you get breeders of that many mice to agree to ship that young, which I doubt, it's a very difficult thing to coordinate for exactly four weeks (or even four and a half weeks) at shipping. Does might not get pregnant, get pregnant immediately when more time had been allowed etc... I just don't think you can get nature to work that precisely for 45-50 mice! :shock:


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## jadeguppy

Definatly a good point Mousebreeder.


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## Shadowrunner

So have we gotten this list together yet? I was just wondering.
It's going to e spring before we even know it. 
Fall coming on is still fresh in my mind.

Age aside, I think if something comes up we have the mind power to fix it :3


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## jadeguppy

No one sent me an updte on what their top choice is. I guess they are still trying to work with those in their areas to figure things out.


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## Laigaie

That's really too bad. We're quickly coming up on the new year, and if we don't have a list, we can't get that list to breeders, which means we can't get ready-dates from them, which means we can't book a ticket... Yeah. Can't go forward. I'm still in for a trio of black tans. If you like, I can help with contacting folks who haven't gotten back to you. PM me with a list. I'm off work until the 17th. O.O I have all the time.


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## Stina

I didn't know we were supposed to be doing that.... I still think it would be a good idea to work toward 2 shipments rather than one. Just getting 1 trio almost isn't even worth it.


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## Kingnoel

Since I'm so isolated out here I think it's best I remove my name from the list. That frees up another trio for someone located more centrally. Perhaps I can have some F1's shipped when/if they're available.

Hope that helps some


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## BlackCat99

if I am the only one out in cali getting any I don't think I will be able to afford it, there is no way I will be able to pay 200+ to get the mice from the UK then have them shipped full cost across the country, as much as I don't want to I may have to withdraw as well


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## SarahC

the last lot of mice I sent abroad were sent pregnant to an unrelated buck to the one they travelled with which widened the gene pool for the recipient.No good if they are going to be in transit past gestation but great otherwise.Some varieties like Abbys you only need bucks,3 bucks would result in many more litters than a trio,I know results would be slower but that's what I'd have if only 3 mice were an option.


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## Laigaie

*BlackCat99*: You're not, according to recent estimates, looking at 200 for the trio to get to the US, though it may get close to that if you do want them shipped across country, rather than either driving yourself or having someone else drive to the next closest mouser.

*Stina*: If you want to organize a second shipment, go right ahead. I'm personally not interested in trying to do this twice, but I see no reason you couldn't put together another shipment. I suspect that as we get closer, more of the folks on the list will drop out, opening up further slots. For each to get a quad, we'd be looking at a list of 10 folks (not far from where we are). One fewer person, and we could look at five per. If not everybody can afford more than a trio, there would be options for folks to pick up more than that, even. It just depends on how it goes.

*SarahC*: Asking for pregnant does is definitely a brilliant idea! Not only are you widening your gene pool, but you're getting started running, and knowing that your doe won't get pregnant in transit to the wrong buck. Of course, that would require more cooperation and effort from the breeders involved, but it certainly doesn't hurt to ask! Hm. I need to put together a letter to base each to-the-breeders email on. Would you mind helping us figure out what exactly we'd need to ask the breeders, and what they'll need to know about our venture? If that sounds cool, shoot me a pm and I can get started on that bit.


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## BlackCat99

*Laigaie*
about how much are we looking at for them to get here... where would the nearest breeder to cali be? from what I understand you guys are all at least a few states from me but I may be wrong


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## sys15

blackcat, i am also in california, and definitely still interested in getting some mice. in fact, if kingnoel is dropping out, i'd gladly assume "his" trio in addition to my own, if that would be allowed.

stina, if you do choose to organize a second shipment, i would be interested.


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## BlackCat99

*sys15*
lol ok as long as you are willing to share babies I don't mind you taking on the trio he was going to take on  hopefully we can get some pretty mice lol


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## Shadowrunner

I'm interested in a second shipment as well, But I'd like to see some sort of solid estimate on prices to rely on. I don't want to fall short you know. <3

I'm pming you now jadeguppy, but maybe it would do some good to edit the first post with it so people who think the have updated but haven't will know for sure. (just a random idea)

I wonder why the idea of sending pregnant does didn't come up earlier. It's genius. xD


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## moustress

You can ask for pregnant does, but be sure they have been sent in a sensible time frame so they aren't giving birth while in transit. That happened to me and it really p***ed me off royally. And there was no separation of the does and bucks. *gah!*


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## mouselover01

I've already been working on second and third shipments. And possibly a shipment from AU.

I'm hoping to work with 3-4 other people max on a shipment so that it's not a waste of time and we can all get a good amount of mice. If you're on the east coat, it will be easier as well.

PM me if you want. I have no problem helping organize second, third, ten more shipments  I'm finding breeders are more than willing to work with us.

I also have no problem arranging shipping across the country. I've done it a hand full of times and it's much cheaper and easier if you have your own shipping crate (like the taconics) that you can supply for the shipment. If not, they can be ordered.

Might take some time, but it'll happen


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## SarahC

Laigaie said:


> Would you mind helping us figure out what exactly we'd need to ask the breeders, and what they'll need to know about our venture? If that sounds cool, shoot me a pm and I can get started on that bit.


I think really you need to settle on an individual who is going to do the shipment for you and leave a lot of that to them or at least move on from there once that is achieved.The co ordinator is key,no good arranging mice from breeders if they are unable to deliver to the co ordinator or he/she collect/accomodate the animals.You thought Roland for instance in Germany,mousebreeder has organised shipments from the U.k and she did the contacting of the breeders for the stock rather than the people receiving them as she knew the breeders with the relevant varieties.Get some more input/advice from her on that aspect The other option would be to arrange a courier to collect from a large show where the breeders would be attending on mass.


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## Laigaie

If you are still interested in the first shipment, and you did not receive a PM from me just now, please PM me! I'm getting a finalized list from everyone, so we can turn around and get that to EU breeders a week from now (at the latest, if someone hasn't PM'd me back). Once we hear back from them, we can set a date for shipment and make the rest of the arrangements (tickets, vet appts, paperwork, etc).


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## Laigaie

Also, Stina asked about the timeframe for all this over PM, and I realized that the response to that would probably be helpful to everyone else. Sorry to double-post myself!

At the very least, given the number of mice we're looking at, it'll take 1 week to finish this list (ha!), 2 weeks to coordinate with breeders, 3-4 weeks of pairing/gestation, 12 weeks until the does from those litters should be getting pregnant, and then shipping should be as immediate as possible once they catch. That's a grand total minimum of 18 weeks! Or a grand total of four months and a week or so until the shipment can be here. That's kinda why I'm trying to get this done so quickly. I know we need to get the breeders a lot of time, if we want to ask them to ship pregnant does. That leaves us looking at receiving these mice no earlier than the second week or so of May, just in time to handle cross-country transport before it gets hot and gas gets expensive(er).


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## mouselover01

Loose plans for me right now, but I MIGHT be driving to Arizona from here some time early summer. If I do wind up doing that, I could take mice with me


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## Shadowrunner

It's been about a week since the last post, do you think everyone has checked in ?


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## Laigaie

Everyone who is going to has checked in. I'm getting together the final list, organizing it by how many of which kind of mouse, and getting that out. Was there something in particular that you wanted more info on?


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## mouselover01

I want to make sure that you understood as per our conversation that Casey DID check in through me. I wanted to dispel any confusion about that.  It's all in the PM


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## Stina

How many people did we end up with and how many trios is each person going to be able to get?


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## Rhasputin

I was told we'd only be allowed 3 mice per person.


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## jadeguppy

Laignaie, thanks for sending out all the pms.


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## Laigaie

We've got a final count that allows 3-4 mice per person, because a good few folks dropped out or weren't ever actually interested. If you originally pm'd me listing more than three mice, I've added the next-listed mouse to your order (. If you originally pm'd me listing three, that's what's still listed. I'm waiting to hear back from one last person, and then I'll send out more pm's to folks who are currently down for three, to find out who of those would be in for four.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I don't know if I am in for a trio or waiting for F1-it makes little difference to me personally, so what do you have me down for?


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## jadeguppy

Tiny: quad tans, 1 buck 3 does


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## tinyhartmouseries

OK, is that black tans? I'm into tans or reds, either one.


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## Laigaie

Yar. That is black tans.


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## Shadowrunner

Stupid questions here...
I didn't pay much attention to the ae/ae mice before now as I was convinced I wouldn't be able to get any, but with the import that would theoretically be possible right?
Which would be more useful to the entire fancy, the normal a/a mice or the ae/ae ?
Also, if those are more useful how hard would it be to get good typed ones in the import compared to 
the normal black selfs. If I'm right, most people in the US don't have those genes and are in demand?

(just curious)


----------



## SarahY

We don't have ae/ae in Europe. The show quality European blacks all came from English stock, and our blacks are a/a.

These are a/a blacks, I take it this is the type of black you mean?


----------



## Stina

Roland believes that his blacks are ae/ae.

I do believe we have ae in the US and I think its actually not too uncommon, but most of the mice with it are still not fantastic blacks, b/c all it does is remove yellow pigment, so a poor black is still a poor black, just with uncolored hairs rather then orange ones.


----------



## Rhasputin

Stina, where di that umbrous satin agouti buck I got from you come from?
After a whole bunch of litter from him, corssing daughters back, he's finally produced 2 blacks.

Both have no yellow hairs.  
They actually look like they have hollow white hairs around the vent and ears.

I think that a good quality black a/a is more important than ae/ae mice.


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## sys15

SarahY said:


> We don't have ae/ae in Europe. The show quality European blacks all came from English stock, and our blacks are a/a.
> 
> These are a/a blacks, I take it this is the type of black you mean?


those are outstanding. along with siamese, exactly what i am hoping to get.


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## sys15

Rhasputin said:


> I think that a good quality black a/a is more important than ae/ae mice.


no doubt true. but colorless/white hairs are less conspicuous than tan hairs, and ae is supposed to increase the degree of pigmentation as well as remove tan. so a good ae "should" be better than a good a.

i'd love to get the ae gene. if you ever have extras and there is a reasonable way for me to get them, please let me know.


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## Stina

ae doesn't increase pigment...it just removed yellow pigment making it _look _like there is increased dark pigment since the colorless hairs are less conspicuous.

Casey, he does have some MIKI bloodlines, and Mike almost definitely has ae, so it is very possible 

I agree good a/a blacks would be more useful than soso or poor ae/ae blacks.


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## Shadowrunner

Well that makes sense. 
I was just asking because I wasn't sure if I had overlooked something that could be more useful to everyone.

But then again if tan vent hairs get washed out, so would any red pigment right? 
That would mean blue/ black tans would look like fox and red varieties would pop up with white babies? Geez. considering that, They would be less useful to the whole fancy than just a regular black self. Now I feel kind of silly for even mentioning it.

SarahY- those mice are gorgeous.


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## Stina

tan is on the A locus, an ae/ae tan is impossible  A^t/ae is just a normal tan. As far as ae/ae reds/yellows......Honestly I'm not sure how it affects them...I don't think I've ever seen it happen


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## sys15

Stina said:


> As far as ae/ae reds/yellows......Honestly I'm not sure how it affects them...I don't think I've ever seen it happen


ae would be recessive to the agouti locus yellows, but it'd be interesting to see what would happen with recessive yellow.


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## Shadowrunner

*facepalm*
It makes sense when I see it typed out, so how do I keep forgetting things like that?


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## sys15

Stina said:


> ae doesn't increase pigment...it just removed yellow pigment making it _look _like there is increased dark pigment since the colorless hairs are less conspicuous.


according to the jax website, ae exhibits more intense black pigmentation than normal nonagouti.

not sure if this is a stable link, but i'll try it.

http://jaxmice.jax.org/strain/000199.html


----------



## Laigaie

I'm having a hard time sourcing black mice at all, actually. I've contacted breeders of the majority of our other varieties, but quality blacks are rather elusive at the moment, apparently because of some kind of fertility issue. Suggestions are definitely welcome!

Also, in contacting tan breeders, I've either been referred to or spoken with breeders of chocolate and champagne tans in addition to the black tans that were originally requested by the tan breeders in the listing. I'd personally far prefer quality champagne tans, as I've a preference for pink-eyed tans. Would anyone else rather have chocolate or champagne than the blacks? I'm going to have to phone Dave Safe about his blacks (once my phone is no longer in the hands of a thief), so I figured I'd get a count on how many that we wanted should be black vs the other colors PRIOR to paying international calling rates to chat about mice. 

Also, JAX also notes that what they're calling ae is radiation-induced. I would not be surprised if there is such a thing, and that there are several a-locus genes or several combinations of modifiers in addition to the ae that is held in labs. Regardless, I suggest that the appearance of the individuals and their ability to throw more like themselves is much more important than whether they're high-quality a/a or ae/ae.


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## sys15

blacks are important to me, but i could be happy with other varieties. my main interest is in getting more genes, so something like a colorpoint beige or a burmese from a line with strong pigment would be better for me than a perfect black.


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## Shadowrunner

I'd be willing to help with calls if you need it. Actually if there is anything I can do to help let me know.
I breed blues pretty much exclusively so I can't really think of anything other than good blacks
being worthwhile.


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## sys15

Laigaie said:


> Also, JAX also notes that what they're calling ae is radiation-induced. I would not be surprised if there is such a thing, and that there are several a-locus genes or several combinations of modifiers in addition to the ae that is held in labs. Regardless, I suggest that the appearance of the individuals and their ability to throw more like themselves is much more important than whether they're high-quality a/a or ae/ae.


the original paper describing the ae gene was based on a radiation induced mutant. i would assume that most ae mice that exist in the fancy are derived from this strain. i'm sure you are right though, that there are likely various mutant alleles that we, as hobbyists, lump together as a or ae, etc.

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/5/221.extract


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## Rhasputin

Satin is also radiation induced., to my understanding.


----------



## moustress

ae saturates the skin with pigment so that you can see NO trace whatsoever of any fade-through of the pink in the ears, eyes, or toes, or vent. It does make a difference; it also produces weird bodies that are much smaller proportionate to the ears and tail you get on show mousies.

It is kind of creepy, actually. I'm not surprised to hear it may be the result of radiation.


----------



## Stina

None of that is correct in my experience.....


----------



## m137b

Stina said:


> None of that is correct in my experience.....


Ditto.


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## sys15

none of what?


----------



## Stina

What moustress claimed about ae. It does NOT fully saturate the skin with pigment (it can improve saturation, but it does NOT fully saturate), nor have I EVER seen it produce wierdly proportioned animals...


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## sys15

Stina said:


> nor have I EVER seen it produce wierdly proportioned animals...


i interpreted her statement to mean just that they were smaller than most show strains, which makes their showy ears and tail look proportionally even larger. i could be wrong about that, but i think i've seen jack also complain about the size of his black strain, which i think i recall is supposedly ae?

at any rate, i would assume that size or body proportions are likely not directly related to the action of the gene. just something that may have happened to get fixed in someone's inbred strain of ae mice, no? so it would not be surprising to see that differ among different strains.


----------



## moustress

Please don't impute my honesty. 

I didn't have a camera back then; I am honestly reporting what I saw, and I do believe I have heard from other breeders describing the same phenomenon. Perhaps there is some other type of ae out there. I can't say other than what I have seen.

And I didn't take notes or ask for references.

I'm bad like that; I'm in this for fun and enjoyment, not trying to convince anyone that I know more than they do.

Please accept my apology for ruffling the feathers of y'alls. :|


----------



## Shadowrunner

I think I have to apologize too. I didn't realize I would be stirring things up. <3


----------



## Laigaie

SO! All that confusion aside, I'm still wondering whether any of the other tan breeders are interested in chocolate or champagne instead of black tan, and looking for suggestions on show black breeders.


----------



## jadeguppy

I have 4 mice reserved. However, I have started to help a family member out who is now between jobs. If anyone wants to take my mice, please let me and Laigaie know. I don't know if I'll have cash remaining when the mice come in.


----------



## Rhasputin

Me and Elena want to get some rumpwhites or dutch mice, so It would be nice if we could get a mouse extra, or two.


----------



## SarahY

Rumpwhite is a gene you don't have so that'd be worth importing but it's not worth importing Dutch at all, they're only piebald mice (recessive spotted s/s)! I have piebalds in my own Dutch litters that you wouldn't look twice at in a petshop, but their sibling may well be a winner!

Seriously, just find some pet shop piebald with saddles and cheek patches (even if they have other patches on their bodies) and selectively breed towards Dutch. You'll get there very, very quickly. The piebald gene automatically results in saddles and cheek patches, that's where the colour likes to sit. moustress has some very Dutchy looking mice that would breed decent marked Dutch within two or three generations.


----------



## Cait

The rumpwhite gene is in the states as I exported some to the US a few years ago. Either they have died out or the breeders aren't sharing :|


----------



## Stina

Pretty sure all the rumpwhites died out unfortunately.


----------



## Rhasputin

Oh! I forgot Rumpwhite is a separate gene. I was thinking colour rump, which is just s/s. Duh!

Yes, rumpwhites it is.


----------



## Rhasputin

SarahY said:


> Rumpwhite is a gene you don't have so that'd be worth importing but it's not worth importing Dutch at all, they're only piebald mice (recessive spotted s/s)! I have piebalds in my own Dutch litters that you wouldn't look twice at in a petshop, but their sibling may well be a winner!
> 
> Seriously, just find some pet shop piebald with saddles and cheek patches (even if they have other patches on their bodies) and selectively breed towards Dutch. You'll get there very, very quickly. The piebald gene automatically results in saddles and cheek patches, that's where the colour likes to sit. moustress has some very Dutchy looking mice that would breed decent marked Dutch within two or three generations.


Interesting! Someone has some piebalds that I'm thinking of buying and keeping around for a bit. I don't want to breed dutch myself, but I have the initiative, and extra space, to at least get them started, and then pass them out to people who will keep working on them here.


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## mouselover01

Or hereford?? We have none of those either.


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## Stina

I don't necessarily think we should import anything just b/c we don't have it....unless there is someone genuinely interested in it...otherwise its going to end up with people who are only breeding it b/c it isn't here otherwise and over time will get bored with it and it will just end up dying out again and have been a waste of space in the shipment...


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## mouselover01

I'm interested in breeding both hereford and rumpwhite and have been for almost a year now


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## Shadowrunner

Okay, is there anything I can do to help out then? Is there need for more searching around for breeders with mice available?


----------



## Laigaie

As previously mentioned, I was hoping to find a better place to buy the Taconic Transit Cage dividers, if you want a way to help.

We've gotten a black breeder, and I'm calling Anne Tomkins about reds tomorrow. Since nobody else wants non-black tans, I'm also supposed to call Dave Safe, but I'll have to do that the next day, since there's only so much time between me getting out of work and people not wanting to take phone calls. It's already 8pm their time by the time I get out of work and home. The other variety for which we still need a breeder is the big typey selfs, whether they're chams or pews. I've got several folks I'm still waiting to hear back from (this is the part that takes forever), and just Anne Tomkins and Dave Safe that I'm supposed to contact (since I have to actually phone them).


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## Shadowrunner

Sounds like a plan. I spend a ton of time online anyway so finding a better source won't be a problem. 
By better what is the price your trying to beat?


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## Laigaie

Depends on what all's included. Taconic has all their prices listed on the website, http://www.taconic.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=725

I talked to Anne Tomkins today, and she said she could definitely handle all four trios of reds for us. It'll mean having all lethal-yellow reds, but they're definitely the best we can get our hands on. After so many maybes and nos, hearing someone say YES so enthusiastically, and not just about four or five mice, but a full dozen feel SO GOOD. I've been sharing some of the unhappy news about the shipment, so I figured I'd share with you guys such very happy news. I've still got several folks I'm waiting to hear back from, but minor milestones still help.


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## Shadowrunner

That's fantastic! 

(thanks for the link btw)
Maybe this is me being stupid, but why would so many people be opposed to this?

one more.. Are we looking for dividers for the tall lidded cages or the short lidded ones?


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## Stina

Yay!  You've got me down for an agouti or cinnamon from the red lines too right?  Every step in the right direction is a good one!


----------



## Laigaie

Stina, I'll have to check, but I'm fairly certain I don't have any agouti or cinnamon down for anybody. She did say that these are co-bred with the agoutis, however, and that she highly recommends this practice.
Shadowrunner, Nobody said they were opposed to it, but a lot of folks across the pond have had a really bad time of it this winter. I've talked to more than a few folks whose mice weren't breeding or were breeding slowly, and Anne mentioned that she knew several folks who'd lost their stock entirely. :shock: Also, I was originally after the cage and dividers for the short-lidded ones, but someone mentioned to me that they'd heard only the tall-lidded ones were approved for international shipping. This is not what I'd understood, so I'll be calling Taconic again tomorrow to make sure. It's unfortunate, as the short-lidded ones make for a cheaper shipping, due to size.


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## Stina

I was down for a buck e/e red or an agouti or cinnamon from A^y red lines along with an abby trio.

Ay is always heterozygous, so agouti and cinnamon are ALWAYS products of their breeding....I'm not breeding for A^y red, I'm breeding to darken e/e, hence why an agouti or cinnamon from A^y lines is more useful to me then a A^y mouse, since I don't want any of the A^y offspring


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## Shadowrunner

That's so odd, but I guess it's part of the messiness of importing.

I wonder what's going on over there that could cause such a widespread problem.
I know it's been really warm where I am all winter, maybe some sort of inconsistency is doing it? *shrug*

Alrighty then, I'll be looking around for both until we know exactly what we need.


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## Stina

I was having lots of trouble with my breeding (just plain not producing) around Christmas. I'm currently having problems getting my rats to breed. I've known others having problems in the past 6 months or so as well.


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## Laigaie

Stina: I'll attempt to correct that problem. My apologies.

Shadowrunner: I've gotten a hold of Taconic via phone. It was definitely much easier than via email, but they're transferring me to the foreign department again. It'll have to be the high cage (which means my previous source is a no-go), but they thought that I could probably save by having it shipped directly to Mike, so long as we can get confirmation on how long that'll take from the foreign department. They'll call me on Monday, and if they don't, I'll call them.


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## Shadowrunner

That sounds wonderful! I'll still look around just in case it's needed anyway. Already checked out a few sites but they always get you with shipping.lol.

Now that I think about it, My mice had a rough time breeding this fall.
It only picked back up in December. That's strange.


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## Stina

> Stina: I'll attempt to correct that problem. My apologies.


Thanks and no prob 

showrunner...yeah, its wierd....lol I've *mostly* been having pretty good luck with my mice since then...but I still have a stubborn few and have lost a couple youngsters.


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## Shadowrunner

I've lost more than a few youngsters. It's gotten to the point that I shouldn't name them until they are adults.
It's strange because they were all doing fine until fall came around. I'm trying to see if new blood will help the problem but I think it's more environmental to be honest.
I wonder if The sunlight lamps used for the finches would help get mice breeding again.

I've checked out a few websites and I'm seeing prices maybe 5 cents less than the actual company offers. I'll let you guys know as soon as I find something reasonable.


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## Laigaie

I'm getting a quote including shipping from them tomorrow, and since we not only need the apparently less common high-lid cage but also the high-lid dividers, I doubt there's any point in trying to find it elsewhere.


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## Shadowrunner

Alrighty then. Is there anything else I can try to help out with?


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## Tikmio

Ok guys i'm in, how much to get a trio of Brindle's shipped to my door?

(2 Female, 1 male).


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## candycorn

Tikmio...these are mice only coming from Europe. They are all spoken for anyway but europe does not even have American Brindle mice.


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## Laigaie

What's more, again to let you know, shipping mice is exceptionally expensive, and the cross-country quote you got before of $175 is quite reasonable. I really would suggest getting 'hold of a breeder of brindles, like Mrs. Beach.


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## Shadowrunner

I'm pretty sure you have to pick them up from the airport as well if you do get them shipped. They are considered cargo, not mail. :'D


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## Laigaie

To update e'rrbody, we're getting the high-lid ttcs, six dividers, and having them shipped first here, then on to Mike in Kent. We're working on organizing the transport of the mice to Mike, and I'm getting a finalized quote on the shipping of the crates full of mice back here. So, yes, it's all moving right along.


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## Stina

yay


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## Shadowrunner

Fantastic news!
I'm so excited. Again, just let me know if I can help.


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## Laigaie

Looking like just 30-something dollars to have it shipped here, and then around a hundred dollars to have it shipped to him, when it would've been over $350 to have it shipped there. :shock: They would only ship it to him as 4-day express! Still waiting to hear back from our last breeder, and we do have a few maybes on the list, but we're mostly squared away on that front. Right now, I'm dealing with the pet shipping folks and the airlines trying to see when we can get the flights, from where, to where, at what cost, etc.


----------



## Laigaie

And another update! It turns out that AirPets, the company that works out of Heathrow shipping pets, includes the custom-made transit cage with their quote, and is willing to make it into 15! divided sections so we can separate all the bucks. I haggled her into cutting the cost of kenneling (normally included) out of our quote, since we obviously don't want the mice hanging around at the facility any longer than necessary. So here's a copy-paste of the quote I'm about to sign an acceptance form for. It's a litter higher than originally anticipated, and will go up if it turns out Mike can't drive the mice to the airport himself, but it includes the flights, the kennel (which we keep), the UK side of customs (other than vet certs), all that good stuff. Because they have non-stop flights to Heathrow, Baltimore gave us a good price cut plus the best possible time for the shipment. Drop-off is at 9am GMT and pickup is at 5:20pm EST.

Mr/s Laigaie
Dear Mr/s Laigaie
QUOTATION
Airpets Ltd.
Spout Lane North, Stanwell Moor, Staines, Middlesex TW19 6BW UK
Tel: (01753) 685571 Fax: (01753) 681655 [email protected] www.airpets.com
Thank you for allowing us to offer our professional services in respect of the movement of "Your 44 Mice" to 
touchdown at Baltimore airport in The United States.
Itemised below are all the activities necessary for your pets' safe arrival at the destination with the relevant 
documentation satisfying all official local requirements. Those activities shown with a 'tick' are ones for which we act on 
We will cover:-
Freight
Air Kennels
Airline Handling
Delivery from Airpets to Heathrow/Gatwick
Customs Entries UK
Owner to cover:-
Veterinary Health Certificate
Owner to Deliver pet(s) to AIRPETS premises
owner to arrange own paper work
Important Notice: Please note that due to a new US security requirement we cannot send pets into the United 
States until at least 30 days after the first contact / quote from our company.
You may be assured that "Your 44 Mice" will receive the best possible attention whilst in our care. Total cost for our 
services as itemised above would be £848.00 (VAT is not applicable). This amount would be due prior to shipment, 
allowing ten days for any cheques to clear.
We look forward to receiving your further instructions and assure you of our fullest co-operation at all times.
Yours sincerely,
Kelly Hayes
(email: [email protected])
Reg. Office: Airpets Ltd. Reg. No: 880497 England. VAT Reg. No: 208 2087 82.
Spout Lane North, Stanwell Moor, Staines, Middlesex TW19 6B

848 GBP, by the bye, converts to 1338.57 USD (or 121.69/person), which I'm not happy about, but using the cheaper company meant flying them from Heathrow to Frankfurt to the US, which was just too long a flight-day and couldn't seem to avoid long layovers in Frankfurt. Plus, the previous quote didn't include the kennel. In order to have my acceptance of the quote, erm, accepted by the company, we'll have to put down a 50GBP deposit. And all that means... soon it will be time to pay for things! I have set up a PayPal account for y'all to pay into, from which we can get things paid out.

Several of our breeders have offered to let their mice go without charge, but others are asking nominal per-mouse fees (5gpb per mouse or 10gbp for trios seems not uncommon). We'll also probably have to pay for a certain amount of transport petrol in the UK, getting the mice to Mike, to the vet (paying for the certs) and then to AirPets. I'm still waiting to hear back from US customs on what all paperwork and fees they need, but probably I'll just spend an afternoon tomorrow calling absolutely everyone and getting transferred around until someone can give me straight answers. Hopefully, soon, I can get a close-to-final quote, but probably I'll just have to ask y'all for what we know we'll be paying for, pay for that, and have to ask y'all for the rest closer to the arrival date. I've got a wedding fund that I've been given permission to borrow from, since it's all my money anyway, so I've got a smidge of float.


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## Stina

It coulda been worse for cost...lol Are you going to send out a pm/pm's to let us know what payment is needed when?


----------



## Laigaie

Yup! I'll (hopefully) be getting more word on US customs costs tomorrow when I put my foot down over the phone, and I'll go ahead and let you guys know what the running total is at that point. When I get the deposit put down on the shipment itself, we'll find out when the rest of the funds will be needed.


----------



## Stina

Is there any chance that, at some point, you can pm us either a full list of whatever everyone is getting, or just reconfirm with each of us what we're getting?


----------



## Laigaie

Oh, sure! Send me a pm if you need a check-in, anybody. At current, all varieties have a definite confirmation from a breeder EXCEPT big typey cham/pews and Abyssinians, for which I'm still on the maybe-but-probably list. Since that means yours, Stina, if you have further suggestions of folks to contact about Abys, please do let me know as soon as you can. I would hate to find out at the last minute that there aren't actually mice available for you.  You're down for the Aby trio (hopefully from laoshu) and the agouti-from-red doe (from Anne Tomkins!).


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## Rhasputin

Hey if you can't find a really big typey buck for me, you can just get me another rumpwhite or another Aby.


----------



## Stina

Honestly I have no idea who breeds abby's....but if anyone else does please pipe up!...lol

...man could I use a big typey pew buck......but I def want the abby's and cinnamon more...lol


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## Laigaie

Well, if one of the two falls through, I'll ask the other how many we can acquire to compensate, but if both fall through, we may be outta luck on that front. Amy Gough, the rw breeder, seemed to think it would be no problem her having the mice, but more of a problem transporting them, which we can handle better at this point than not having a breeder at all.


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## Rhasputin

Stina said:


> Honestly I have no idea who breeds abby's....but if anyone else does please pipe up!...lol
> 
> ...man could I use a big typey pew buck......but I def want the abby's and cinnamon more...lol


I've got a nice pe splashed typey litter in the oven, so i can help you there!


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## Shadowrunner

I have all the money I think I'll need saved up now. 
I'm going gto keep saving though, to make sure for certain.'
What to do now? xD


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## Shadowrunner

Is there anything left to do now?
(do double posts count three weeks later?)


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## Laigaie

Oh, hi! I've got the quote approved with the shipping company, all the paperwork in with the customs folk, and I'll be sending emails out to all our breeders again tomorrow to check in, make sure all's going well (except Dave Safe, who wants contact mid-April). I've got to work out the details of the mouse train getting the mice to Mike, and that and paying for everything is all that's between us and May. The plane should be on the ground on May 14th.


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## Shadowrunner

Oh wow, I hadn't realized how far along it all was. We have the new house set up. Did you still need a place to crash?
I can ask to see if anyone minds.
Edit: that was you right? @[email protected];


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## Tikmio

I wish I could afford to buy some awesome mice... Well, I can start working on splashed soon


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## Stina

sooooooooo excited for some European meeces!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rhasputin

The mice are going to MD, right?


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## Kingnoel

So glad to see this is working out for you guys. I was wondering if I could ask what your final figures were, say per mouse.

I've been looking into an import from England straight into California and from door to door it will be nearly $100 per mouse. A little bit steep but still do able, I just wondered what your figures were running.

Thanks and congrats!


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## candycorn

Yes. They are arriving in Baltimore and I am picking them up and hosting the mouse sleepover that starts the travel train of mouse delivery!


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## Rhasputin

Okay! Ann is going to pick up mine and Elena's from the airport with you.


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## Shadowrunner

Tara is it okay if I come to see the arrivals too?
I love the airport!
(I can get my boyfriend to drive me up of course)


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## Laigaie

Goodness! It's going to be quite a party at the airport. It might be easier, if it's okay with candycorn, for everyone to meet at the house. There will be a lot of waiting around, then some paying of last-minute fees and signing off on things (of course), counting and watering of the mouses, and then driving back to the house. That way there won't be so much craziness all at once?

Final costs: Most of our breeders ended up deciding not to charge us for the mice themselves, which is pretty amazingly awesome of them. The shipping costs in GBP, so how that translates to USD changes constantly, but is around $1230 most days. We've also got the costs of the customs stuff, which is looking to hit right around $175, though that's an upper ballpark figure. The costs we don't have nailed down yet are the mouse train to Mike and the vet costs. A very kind individual has offered to subsidize the gas cost of getting me to MD and back to the midwest, so anyone whose mice I'm bringing back to the midwest won't have to pay extra for that. Total, we're looking at 44 mice, so 1230+175=1305 1305/44=29.67 per mouse as a running total. As everyone's getting four, that's a running total of 118.63, but it will go up, for sure, as the vet will definitely cost.

Speaking of interstate transportation, I assume all the East Coast folks will be sending someone to MD. We've got someone in Michigan, who can either pick up from the closest East person, or pick up from us in the midwest, depending on what's easier. As for our West Coast folks, would you like to drive to the midwest or have your mice shipped further from the midwest? I assume a midwest to CA flight would be easier on y'all financially than an East Coast to midwest flight. It's up to you folks.


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## Rhasputin

It's easier for Ann to go to the air port, it's closer to her than Tara's house is.


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## Cait

Maggie, can you please PM me with the mice I am providing (if you still need them that is!).


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## Laigaie

I just don't want to deal with everybody at the airport, me freaking out and having to deal with customs and papers and signing things and last-minute paying for things (one fee is required to be paid at pickup, no earlier, and in cash. how stupid!), and worrying about the mice... and be surrounded by people who can't help but are also worried and excited and generally contributing to my likelihood of yelling at somebody. Though I understand for folks who need to make a short trip to the airport rather than a long trip to the house, I'd really like to balance that with not having EVERYBODY ALL AT ONCE, you know? So, I guess, if you really need to, do that. If it won't cause you harm, let's not. 

Also, pm sent.


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## Shadowrunner

Lol, I guess meeting at the house sounds okay, if it's okay with the house's owner of course.
I just love airports xD Hate planes, love airports.
Sounds like someone values their personal space there xD


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## Laigaie

Me?  Value personal space? Pah!  Seriously, though, I just get over-worried when I'm driving twenty hours and ten other people (plus UK breeders, customs folk, and any of our partners who get dragged into this) are depending on me to get something done perfectly. That's all!  No stress there, right? :lol:


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## Shadowrunner

No pressure! xD
I know how you feel! 
(that's what I meant before D: sorry.)
Twenty hours straight? O:


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## Laigaie

20hrs and 13mins, according to Google Maps. :sleep But my lovely driving partner is totally enthused about a road-trip!


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## candycorn

Rhasputin said:


> It's easier for Ann to go to the air port, it's closer to her than Tara's house is.


Actually since we are using BWI it's only about 20 mins from my place. I belive that Ann lives in the DC suburbs right? But either way since they are all headed to my house anyway and I took the day off to be sure to be availble, it's just as easy for me to pick them up. And that way Laigaie can come to my house first and we can keep it to one car paying for parking at the airport! LOL!

And yes...having a lot of people at the airport is going to be a bit much. But everyone local is very welcome to come over to my place and pick up their mice..and the mice they are going to train down. 
I think it's very exciting and was a TON of work. So thanks so much to Laigaie AND to the breeders who are donating mice to this amazing project! It's all VERY VERY exciting!


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## moustress

I've been following this whole process as it's developed, and I have to say that I am impressed with how well things are going so far.

You're doing a good job, Lagaie. Here's hoping the mousies all come through in good shape!

(...and, I'm with you, L. about avoiding a mob scene at the airport...especially after a 20hr+ road trip :shock: )


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## Stina

I think Elena is picking up my mice and i'll be meeting her on her way home to get them?...


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## Rhasputin

Me and Elena are making a road trip to MD to pick up our mice, and yours I believe, Stina.


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## Cait

Out of curiousity, what was the max number of mice allowed per crate?


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## Laigaie

It was a bit variable, but since there was a limit on the number of sections, that was also a factor. The TTC can hold 20-25 mice each, and has up to six sections. Two TTCs zip-tied together hit the limit for our shipping crate size, maxing us out at 40-50 mice and 12 sections.


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## Cait

So does that mean that as long as you have compatible groups you could increase to a max of 50 from the current 44? How are the bucks travelling - with the does of their variety? Sorry for being nosey


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## Rhasputin

I am also curious about this!


----------



## Laigaie

It depends on the buck, quite simply. Most bucks are traveling with does of their variety. A very few bucks may be traveling solo, either because there are no does of their variety, or because all the does of their variety already have a buck traveling with them. One trio of does is traveling sans buck because there were no bucks of their varieties being included. When possible, I tried to keep destination groups (all going to same home) together, but occasionally groups had to be split up in order to minimize the total number of compartments. I gave the carpenter several variations on arrangement, so I'm not sure what he ended up with.

Since we ended up not using the TTCs, we saved well over $200. Had we gone with the TTCs, we would have been able to get 50 mice only had we not used any dividers. That would have meant housing several bucks together with large mixed groups of does. Also, if we were getting all smaller varieties (like blacks or marked) and not any of the larger varieties (pale selfs, reds), we would have been able to get closer to the 50 mouse maximum. As it was, I tried to go for the middle of the 40-50 mouse suggestion, because I knew we'd want dividers for sure.


----------



## Cait

I was just curious both for my own information should I ever import/export again in future, and to see if you were having 44 mice because it was the max or because that's the number people wanted. Was there any restriction placed on the number of mice per compartment? When I helped with a previous shipment it was 3 mice per compartment, 45 mice in total, therefore 15 compartments in one box - but that was based on what was wanted rather than the max possible as far as I know.


----------



## Laigaie

Our cap was originally based on the TTCs, which we did not end up using. By the time we switched, it was too late to be upping the cap, because we needed information on how many of which sexes and in what configuration immediately.

I'm pretty sure if we'd gone with as many mice as people were willing to take in, we'd've taken over the whole plane! The eleven people were the ones who initially were interested, minus the ones who decided they couldn't do it. I then divided the total number of reasonable slots in the boxes out by the number of folks, worked on making that as fair (round) a number as possible, and 44 mice to 11 breeders was perfect. Another factor is how many mice we can reasonably expect to be able to organize at once, and I suspect 50 or so is the maximum on that, too. I'm frankly amazed at Anne Tomkins' ability to coordinate that many reds all at once, and Dave Safe seemed totally nonplussed at the idea of providing so many black tans, but to provide a dozen or more blacks at once? It just wouldn't happen. Or coated varieties? Just not possible. As it is, I'm having trouble juggling all our folks here and all the folks there. To involve more mice would either mean more mice per breeder (hard to impossible for the breeders!) or more total breeders (really, really hard on your organizer!). It's a balance, definitely. Possibly, more mice could be involved, if another element were added. If you were combining mice of different countries, perhaps, or if you had a year of advance planning with the breeders and were willing to pay them enough to compensate for so much planning. Really, though, it's hard to ask someone to deal with that kind of craziness once, much less multiple times.


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## candycorn

What you have done is truly amazing! I thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting this enormous project!!


----------



## Shadowrunner

I second that, we wouldn't be able to do this without all the work put in. Maybe when we get this over with, we should write a community thank you note to all the people involved. (just a idea)

It's really exciting to do this with other people, instead of all on my own.


----------



## Frizzle

It's been really fun to read over what you all are doing, and was wondering what varieties you had imported?


----------



## Laigaie

Reds, black tan, Cham tan, black, Siamese splash, aby, rw, and cham, that I remember off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I wrote out a list of what and from whom. The forum may have eaten it.


----------



## Tikmio

> The forum may have eaten it.


LOL


----------



## Shadowrunner

It has been hungry lately hasn't it? xD


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## moustress

Maybe some threads have gotten infected with a pacman virus *chomp!**chomp**chomp**chomp*


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## Tikmio

Moustress, you kill me! LOL.


----------



## Laigaie

We've got three who won't be able to put together funds and/or arrange transport in time for the shipment, meaning we've got:

2 black tan bucks from Dave Safe,
6 black tan does from Dave Safe,
1 red buck from Anne Tomkins,
3 red does from Anne Tomkins.

These all need homes. If you're already part of our shipment, these will add proportionally to your part of the costs (each mouse costs the same, basically). If you're not part of our shipment already, you're just as welcome to them, but be aware that the first $30 per mouse will be due April 15th, with a small amount (probably just a few dollars per mouse, maybe $10) due before the shipment arrives in Baltimore on May 14th. I take Paypal or you can send checks, money order, whatever makes you happy.

I've got free transport for these to the Midwest, or you can arrange your own transport to wherever. My trip back to the Midwest goes from Baltimore to just outside Pittsburgh to Columbus OH to Indianapolis IN to St Louis MO to Joplin and then down to me in Fayetteville AR, so anywhere along the way is fine, too, so long as you don't mind meeting me just off the highway.

I'd be happy to take on a pair of the black tans, or even just a doe, but wanted to give everybody equal chance on these. With a dozen mice available and us down to eight receiving breeders, anyone who wants and can afford it should be able to snag at least one of these.


----------



## candycorn

I would love a pair of black tans, which would add me up to a black tan trio please.


----------



## Stina

I'd like to take a red doe...just have to double check with hubby and will get back to you asap!

Could send an update of what the total you'd need from me by the 15th would be?


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## Laigaie

Done and done, and all that leaves us with a trio of reds from Anne Tomkins and four black tan does from Dave Safe. I'll send an email to the folks who I don't think have been following the thread.


----------



## Shadowrunner

I'll take any leftover black tans if no one else wants them.
I mean, if someone else does then that's fine but it wouldn't hurt me any to take them either.


----------



## love2read

I'm interested in the Red buck, but need to run it by hubby first to make sure he's okay with me spending $40 on a mouse, lol. I'll let you know in an hour or 2.


----------



## love2read

Hubby gave me a begrudging "yes". 

So, I'll take the Red buck! Just let me know what paypal addy to send the money to.


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## Laigaie

Sure thing! Do you have transport for him from Baltimore? I'll pm with details once I get back to the computer.


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## love2read

Columbus is only 2 hours from me, so I can meet up with you there on your way back to AZ, if that's okay with you.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for your PM. I'm so excited!  I wasn't planning on adding Red to my breeding program, but certainly can't pass up such a great opportunity to get a handsome boy from overseas! I'm sure I can find a way to incorporate him into my tans.


----------



## mouselover01

I'm interested in taking a pair (m/f) black tans and 1 additional red doe.

Am I correct in saying that will be an additional 120.00?

Do we know exact prices yet?


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## Laigaie

That leaves us with one red doe left, and I'll try to get everyone an updated cost tomorrow.


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## mouselover01

Thank you!


----------



## candycorn

Giving a fun bump because we are only a bit over 2 weeks away from them arriving! Is everything still on scedule? Do we need to do anything else to help? Since they are coming here first...should I have anything ready besides an empty room on a seperate level from my mice?


----------



## bethmccallister

Is the red doe still available? I'm very interested if so...


----------



## Stina

I can't believe its so soon already!!!!!!!!! I'm so excited!!!!


----------



## Laigaie

Beth: the red doe has been picked up by another member of the shipment. One of our other members has not paid, and has not been responsive lately. I'm covering her part for now, and we'll see what happens. If it turns out that person has dropped out, there will be another red doe available. I'll let you know, and I'll post here, since there will be several mice coming available if that happens.

Everyone else: I've been trying to write this post for a few days. Some of it is bad news. Some of it is neutral news. Some of it is just the kind of craziness we knew was going to happen as we got closer.

Mike is no longer our contact person on the ground in the UK. He will not be in the country on the dates we need him, so he's stepping out. Instead, I'm contacting couriers and also having AirPets get us a quote on having the mice picked up from the show. When I get the transport settled, I'll contact all our breeders again to let them know what's going on, and make sure they've got their end of transport organized. Even though Mike won't be there, the mice he was providing (for me!) will still be part of the shipment, so long as I can get them from his house to Heathrow. I'll pay for that bit myself, no worries.

We've also had a few breeders drop out, and part of that is settled. Unfortunately, George who was going to be providing blacks has had to get out of mice altogether, and no longer has the mice he bred for us. He is contacting Roger Smith for us, and if we don't hear back by the end of the week, I'll be frantically calling people to get those mice replaced. At this point, only mice that are already born and weaned can even BE a part of the shipment, so things are a little clearer.

On the plus-side, all our paperwork is cleared, all our forms are in, and there's really not much to be done until we all show up in Baltimore. I've got folks to contact, some mice to replace, and a courier to contract, but that should be the end of the mess. That sounds like a lot, but, really, it's par for the course at this point. The car I'm driving there has been cleared by the mechanic, the time off from work is already filed, and I'm simultaneously amazed that it's already time and aching to get there and also terrified of how much is still needing to be settled. Explaining to my boss that, no, he could not convince me to not take off the days I'd already filed for and been approved for was REALLY fun. Once I got to the bit where many hundreds of OTHER PEOPLE's dollars were at stake, he backed off. 

Anyway, I don't mean to alarm anybody, and fear of alarming folks is why I haven't been able to finish this post until now. I suppose it's alarming, but there's not really anything to do about it, other than knuckle down and get things done. Which I'm doing. And other people are doing. But you should know that it's where we are.


----------



## love2read

If it's not too much trouble amongst the insanity could you pretty please let me know what(if any) other mice become available at the last second? I might be able to afford a second one if I beg and plead with hubby, lol.


----------



## Stina

I'd also like to know about anything that comes available!


----------



## Laigaie

As I said, if our last person who hasn't paid doesn't pay, of course I'll let you all know what comes available, and I'll make sure everyone gets told simultaneously. Also, I love that this is what you guys are most concerned about!  It says great things for the trust you have in me.


----------



## Stina

I have faith you can pull it off!


----------



## sys15

laigaie, thanks again for doing this. i think it is hard for those of us who have done nothing more than pledge a few dollars per mouse to appreciate how much work this has been for you.

and i need to start figuring out how to get a few of those mice to the western us. i don't suppose i'd be lucky enough that a midwesterner reading or participating in this thread is planning a trip west in two or three weeks?


----------



## Frizzle

I'm doubtful you need to get any mice into Wisconsin or towards MN? My bf lives in Chicago and should be visiting me come the end of May, this means that theoretically we could get mice from chicago to about 45 minutes to the east of Eau Claire, WI.


----------



## sys15

sorry, i should have been more clear. i live in california, so it'd be ideal if someone was driving from maryland or arkansas to california...

but i'm sure that is far too much to hope for. i'd still be ecstatic if someone happened to be able to get the mice from laigaie somewhere along her path and get them to somewhere in the west where i could meet them. arizona, nevada, utah. anywhere in the neighborhood. it's a long shot, i know.


----------



## Shadowrunner

Thanks again for all your hard work and please let me know if I can help with anything <3


----------



## Laigaie

Good news, everyone!

George found somebody to get us the blacks!


----------



## Shadowrunner

*does dance* Whoo!

That's great


----------



## Laigaie

Hi again! The person who I hadn't heard from got back to me to let me know that they're going to have to reduce the number of mice headed toward them in the shipment, meaning two Siamese Splashed does are going to be available. KAWmice, who doesn't use this forum, had also expressed interest in them, and I wanted to make sure that anyone who doesn't already have mice coming in could get a stab at these. If nobody else is after Siamese Splashed, I'll let her know she can have both. Also, I find it terribly funny that Spl came from here, got shipped over there, and is now being shipped back, much improved from the exposure to significantly better Siamese and significantly better type! These are well-traveled genes.


----------



## mouselover01

Thanks for the heads up.

I was interested in the mice, but I think after what Christine has been through with her mice (I believe she lost hers in a fire and or other bad events), it would be really great if she got the chance to get them. She's a great gal and as much as I'd like some better type Siamese, I think it'd be fair she was give first stab at them.

I'll see if I can get her to get online and reserve them asap if she can.


----------



## Rhasputin

I agree, Christine definitely deserves a chance to get them!


----------



## Stina

I dont' think there'd be any question....I would consider them reserved for her unless she declines...lol


----------



## Laigaie

I've been PMing with her on TMC, and it sounds like she'd be happy to have them. I just wanted to make sure with y'all. With all the additions to the importer list and the subtractions to the importer list, we're at 12 folks receiving mice!


----------



## kawmice

Awww! Thanks so much guys!!  I feel so loved! Lol.

I definately still want them.


----------



## Shadowrunner

And very many more once we get them breeding no? xD

I for one plan to give most of the F1 babies away <3


----------



## Frizzle

Take a ton of F1 to Rodent Fest next year!


----------



## Laigaie

I'm also passing out F1s (champagne tan and champagne-black tan crosses), and hoping to go to RF next year, since this trip really prevented me from going this year.

In other news, if there are mice needing to go from the midwest to the east coast, or back from the east coast to the midwest, I will have all the car space in the world. We're apparently taking a Jeep Grand Cherokee Lmtd. O.O It's scary-huge. But whatever!


----------



## Bella

Just wanted to pop in here. I completely missed this thread in the making, but laigaie has kept me informed via email and I greatly appreciate it.

I am looking forward to getting a black tan doe!


----------



## Cait

Maggie I sent you a message on this forum a few days ago about transport for the mice but I haven't had a reply - can you please get back to me urgently? Thanks


----------



## Laigaie

Just got off work. I'll be sending everybody messages thus afternoon. Having te other courier pickup would be much much much more expensive, but the only finally got me the quote today.


----------



## SarahC

I had a message from someone via facebook yesterday who seems to think I am involved in co ordinating this export :? I've no idea why they would think this but incase anyone else has mysteriously formed this impression I'm not involved and never have been.Good luck and I hope it goes well .


----------



## Stina

Interesting...I never had that impression!

Laigaie, did you ever send pm's the other day?....I never got one?


----------



## Laigaie

Those were pms, calls, and emails to breeders, not to recipients. They needed reminders about Saturday, and to be told that Dave'll be there to pick up mice.


----------



## Stina

Ooh ok


----------



## Laigaie

Hey Sarah! Sorry about the confusion. That was probably Dave Safe, as I ended up leaving what was quite likely a somewhat garbled message on his phone. I called for three days straight, but either nobody was home, or he was already out on the town, and still I wasn't entirely prepared to leave voicemail. Answer phones always leave me tongue-tied. I was trying to explain that we were contacting you about mice, but I'm not sure what got out of my mouth. O.O Anyway, things with transport seem mostly settled, or they will be once we know whether the cham tans are coming from you or from Mike (though hopefully from you!). Things with paperwork are settled, except for a formal-sounding statement I have to type up for the folks at the airport. Anybody got official-looking letterhead? :s  Once we get a final cost from our courier Dave, I'll have one more thing crossed off the list. All that'll be left is paying Dave, paying AirPets the last bit, paying our customs agent, and any last-minute costs at the airport (up to $40, but possibly $0). And then... the home stretch.


----------



## Stina

Woo hoo!!! Just a week to go!!!!!!!!  So soon already!!!!!!


----------



## candycorn

Woot! How many folks are meeting us at the airport parking lot and how mqny at my place in Baltimore?


----------



## Laigaie

I'm picking up for folks in OH, AR, KS, OK, and CA. Including yourself, candycorn, there are six other recipients. It had sounded like everyone but Shadowrunner was either meeting us at the airport or sending someone to meet us at the airport.


----------



## Stina

I know casey and elena are going to meet you at the airport together and getting their, my, and christine's mice...not sure if they're getting anyone else's.


----------



## Laigaie

So that's everybody else, then. Is Shadowrunner picking up at candycorn's or at the airport?


----------



## Shadowrunner

I had the impression that people didn't want a crowd at the airport, I had planned to meet up at candy's place but either one is fine <3
I'm so excited!


----------



## candycorn

I think the idea is to meet in the airport parking lot, not in the actual airport. However this will cost folks money since parking at the airport is not free. You are welcome to swing by my place Monday evening Sarah.


----------



## Rhasputin

When are we going to know the arrival time?


----------



## candycorn

Flight gets in at 5 pm...it is going to take a while to get them off the plane and all paperwork filled out. So it's probably safe to say by 6 pm in the parking lot.


----------



## Rhasputin

5PM on the which day?


----------



## candycorn

Rhasputin said:


> 5PM on the which day?


Monday May 14th


----------



## Rhasputin

Okay, hmm! I was thinking it was the 15th.
Good thing I asked, lol.

Change of plans Stina! Lol


----------



## tinyhartmouseries

Wow! Very very very exciting people! I cannot believe this is happening!!!!


----------



## sys15

do any of the breeders that will be meeting laigaie happen to have an extreme black or a mouse that carries ae that they'd be willing to sell me? its a gene that i'm extremely interested in, and i doubt very much if i'll have another chance to get mice from outside my region shipped to me anytime soon?


----------



## Laigaie

Aaaaaand an update from British Airways, who called me today to make sure I'd be there to pick up the mice at 19:50! 1950, by the way, translates to 7:50, not 4:50, like AirPets had said! I checked with AirPets and got a fresh copy of the airway bill, and lo, it is indeed 7:50pm. On the one hand, it'll mean fewer people at the airport. On the other hand, it'll mean meeting up really late. Also, I'm leaving to head in the direction of Baltimore tomorrow after work, and will be incommunicado until Saturday night, though we may just crash immediately, and not be available again until Sunday. If you need anything between now and then, send me a pm, as I get notifications of those. Since I get motion sick, I won't be reading the forum, just emails and pms.

Also, love2read, this will greatly change the hour at which we'll meet. I can give you a call when I leave Baltimore, though, and tell you what time I can meet, if you've chosen a place. 'Course, you'll have to pm me your phone numbers for me to do that.


----------



## Laigaie

Aaaand an update with what I hope are final cost numbers.

Unless somebody's going to spring it on poor Dave-the-courier at the last minute, it sounds like Dave Safe is the only one charging us for mice. So, if you're getting a black tan, add $8 to the per-mouse cost. Sorry, folks. On the other hand, he said today that the does are all either pregnant or exceptional stock. Take your pick, I guess?

AirPets (shipping): 848 GPB or $1390
Wire transfer bank fees: $70
Dave-the-courier: 200 GBP or $333
Dartrans (includes customs & Fish+Wildlife): $415

That brings us to a grand total of 2208. Divided across 44 mice, that's $50ea, well over what we'd budgeted. A large (very large) part of that is the increased cost of having Dave courier compared to Mike, the huuuuge fee to Fish & Wildlife that we pay because the mice aren't white (!), and the unfavorable exchange rates. And, again, that's $58 if they're black tans.

Unfortunately, I can't really swallow the extra $440, so if for some reason you're not able to handle the extra ten per mouse, let me know. We'll figure something out. Also, as a reminder, meetup is in the parking lot of the airport (or at Tara's house), not inside the airport, at 8pm on Monday.


----------



## kawmice

I will send the extra money as soon as I get to a computer later on today.  I am getting very excited about getting my two girls!


----------



## kawmice

Oh- if anyone is getting a black tan , or any tan, that they decide to pass up let me know. I will gladly take one.


----------



## Shadowrunner

so wait. 
is it 50$ extra for each mouse or each person?

Also BWI is a big place and the parking lot can be absolutely crazy with the shuttles flying through and security keeping all the drivers on their toes. 
Just [picking my fiance up outside was a huge mess. Do we know which section to meet at?


----------



## candycorn

I just need a total of what I owe after making that first payment so I can have cash for you.


----------



## Stina

It looks like its a TOTAL of $50 per mouse...so take $50 (or $58) x the number of mice you're getting and then subtract what you already paid from it to get what you owe. ...At least I think that is right?


----------



## moustress

I'm excited and I'm not even getting any of the mousies!! :!: :!: :!:


----------



## candycorn

Stina said:


> It looks like its a TOTAL of $50 per mouse...so take $50 (or $58) x the number of mice you're getting and then subtract what you already paid from it to get what you owe. ...At least I think that is right?


Wheww.... 80 more than I was expecting. That hurts a bit.

I sent 100 more by paypal. I will give the last 50 in cash.

And man...already pregnant? Anyone waiting for F1 generation babies? LOL!

OH...and anyone on this mouse train that would like a lovely pied blue buck? He is just weaned and is from Beth's stock. I have a pedigree for him if there is any interest. He is free to a good home and can travel to you with your European friends! Do let me know!


----------



## Bella

Oh, how exciting that the tans are pregnant! That's perfect!


----------



## Shadowrunner

I'm looking back through my records, and after a few people dropped out I offered to take more mice if there were any left
over. I'm unsure as to how many I'm getting now.

I know I already sent 240$ now I just have to figure out the rest XD


----------



## Laigaie

Shadow-I think I have you down for six. My records are in my computer, and I'm at a rest stop on my phone.

Everybody: I can get you remainder totals once I arrive in Baltimore tonight (maybe 9 or 10pm est).

Also, the final invoice from AirPets was updated today, because the mice have arrived at their facility. Someone sent three extra mice. I have no idea what they are. They increased our AirPets cost, making the total per-mouse cost about the same (a smidge higher), so the blind-bag mice are the same cost. If you think you'll want them, tell the person picking up your mice, I guess. It's almost definitely something we were already getting, and hopefully they're does (as there is only one more compartment than there are bucks). Ugh. Unexpected mousey generosity should not be a problem...


----------



## Serena

It is absolutely incredible how you manged this. I hope all your mice arrive healthy and are good breeders


----------



## tinyhartmouseries

L! I emailed you about the suprise mice!


----------



## kawmice

Ah , very cool.


----------



## Cait

Dave just dropped off my transport cages and all went well getting the mice to the export company. Apparently the staff there were so impressed with all the different varieties of mice that they were taking photos!


----------



## Stina

Yaaaaay!!!!


----------



## Bella

Oh my gosh, I'm getting excited!! I might have too beg for photo's of my doe, since I won't get to see her for a couple more weeks!


----------



## Cait

Bella said:


> Oh my gosh, I'm getting excited!! I might have too beg for photo's of my doe, since I won't get to see her for a couple more weeks!


Which one is yours?


----------



## moustress

*squeeee!*


----------



## sys15

i'd like to renew my plea for an extreme black or carrier to anyone who will be meeting laigaie. please!

and a huge thanks to laigaie for organizing everything. i think i have some sense for how much work it was, and even so, i'm sure i'm greatly underestimating the effort involved.


----------



## love2read

Sys15- I have some possible AE carriers you can have. Most of them are 50% hets(1 parent is a carrier), but I have a couple 66% hets(both parents are carriers) as well. Some are show-type and some are mixed. A few are also possible Merle carriers. Shoot me an email and I'll send you the full list. My email is [email protected]


----------



## sys15

love2read said:


> Sys15- I have some possible AE carriers you can have. Most of them are 50% hets(1 parent is a carrier), but I have a couple 66% hets(both parents are carriers) as well. Some are show-type and some are mixed. A few are also possible Merle carriers. Shoot me an email and I'll send you the full list. My email is [email protected]


thanks!


----------



## Shadowrunner

-hyperventilates- 
Omhmyohmyohmyohmyohmy
*flail*

This is way, way way too exciting for my poor little brain.

So it was 58$ extra for each person then yes?
(second guessing myself as I prepare)


----------



## candycorn

Shadowrunner said:


> -hyperventilates-
> Omhmyohmyohmyohmyohmy
> *flail*
> 
> This is way, way way too exciting for my poor little brain.
> 
> So it was 58$ extra for each person then yes?
> (second guessing myself as I prepare)


Ummm it's 50 per mouse (unless you got black tans...then it's 58.

So add the number of mice you got (Sarah I think Maggie said you had 6) x 50 = 300 
Minus whatever you have already paid -
And that is what you still owe.

And I think Maggie said the extra mice are all reserved. She is here btw. We are going to go be tourists today!


----------



## Laigaie

Extra mice may or may not be all reserved, since some of the pre-calling-it folks are wanting certain varieties. Since I haven't the faintest who sent the extras, we'll find out tomorrow at the airport. Dave Safe had mentioned to me that he'd thought about it, and I told him that while I really really appreciated the gesture, there wasn't a way to get them on the plane without having to pay a bunch extra for them. He MAY have sent them anyway. Or it could be Anne, as she did send a bunch, too. Ah, well. We'll see, right?


----------



## Bella

MouseBreeder, I got a black tan doee. XD


----------



## Laigaie

And if you don't end up with one of the pregnant ones, you'll have your choice of breeding her to the black tan that'll temporarily be at mah hoos, or breeding her to the cham tan that'll permanently be at mah hoos. Stud service!


----------



## Laigaie

We're hanging at the airport, waiting on the customs folks.


----------



## mouselover01

Just under 20 min away!!!


----------



## Stina

wooo!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Shadowrunner

My head is going to implode. With the force of a million excitement suns.

Waiting for my ride to get here so I can go. *dances*


----------



## Bella

Are they here?  Do we get pics of the variety? That would be cool!


----------



## Stina

elena just told me she's still waiting!


----------



## Laigaie

She's waiting because we're still waiting at customs. Haven't seen the box, yet. They said twenty more minutes.


----------



## Stina

I figured  Was just updating those who are following! Waiting sucks!!


----------



## Shadowrunner

I'm glad for the delay, I'm still running behind D:

Is anyone taking pictures?

-head explodes-


----------



## mouselover01

I have a camera with me. I can get pics of the crates and everything and email the pics out, just PM me email addresses if u want pics


----------



## Laigaie

Apparently British Airways didn't send the airway bill electronically, which is not the fault of anyone I paid directly.


----------



## Laigaie

They do appear to be here, but they can't be released until BA sends the form.


----------



## Shadowrunner

That's not good.
I hope they figure it out soon <3


----------



## Stina

oh good lord....not cool!!


----------



## Laigaie

They're being searched, now!


----------



## Stina

they're searching mice?....what do they expect to find?...


----------



## candycorn

We can smell them


----------



## Stina

haha!


----------



## Shadowrunner

Searched? D:

Wow.

-still excited-

How are the staff reacting to it? xD


----------



## mouselover01

On my way to meet stina with her and christines mice


----------



## love2read

*boing boing boing*

I need to SLEEEEEPPPPPP so I can meet up with Laigaie when she reaches Columbus, OH, but I'm to excited! How am I supposed to sleep?! O.O


----------



## candycorn

Almost home with them. Pictures coming sooooon


----------



## Rhasputin

Yay mice!

Edit: FYI my phone died, and I left ym charger in VA, lol. I think I got a text from Stina, but it died before I got to read it.


----------



## candycorn

Here are SOME of the pictures!
First...finding out that paperwork on the computer was missing and we might not get our mice! They told us they might not even have been on the plane! OMG!!!








Wait! 2 hours later we get our boxes! And what amazing boxes they are too!!! Weeee waterbottles for the win!








But they are screwed shut...nobody brought a phillipshead screwdriver! Eeek! 








But by hook or by crook we got that box OPEN!








And there was treasure inside!!! Here are just some of the amazing mice we brought home!!!









__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


























































OMG DIES! I got a trio of Reds, a pair of black tans and a VERY preggers chocolate tan surprise (replaced one of my black tans)! 
What a great Day!

ALL THANKS GO TO MAGGIE AND ALL THE AMAZING UK BREEDERS WHO DID AN AMAZING THING AND REALLY PULLED IT OFF!

NOW we all must remember to share. To pass on the F1 babies without charging for them...so that the mice can spread across America and not die off with one breeder. It is the pact we made together and I know we will all honor it for the sake of these amazing animals and the hard work Maggie put into this!


----------



## Shadowrunner

Yes and and at 50$ a pop I must say it was worth it. I haven't stopped looking at mine.
These are the blackest, shiniest, most color dense mice I have ever seen in person.
Even the toenails are black. 
You people must let me know who wants F1 babies. 
The black tans are insanely red too.

I'm setting them up now.
Thanks to everyone involved for all the hard work. I cannot thank you guys enough.


----------



## tinyhartmouseries

Very excited to find out what the "extras" are!
Now do remember to save me a very dark red doe!  Who gave the red does?

You guys rock!


----------



## Laigaie

Red does came from Anne Tomkins. Aren't they gorgeous? They're all gorgeous! Also, the extra were the two choc tan does who replaced a missing cham tan doe and a missing black tan doe. So, really, just surprises, not extras.

Oh, and your doe is in a box in my car in Pennsylvania at the moment. We're on our way to Ohio, then home sweet home.


----------



## Stina

Yay meece!! Just got home with mine and Christine's!

Thanks so much Maggie for coordinating!!



> NOW we all must remember to share. To pass on the F1 babies without charging for them...so that the mice can spread across America and not die off with one breeder. It is the pact we made together and I know we will all honor it for the sake of these amazing animals and the hard work Maggie put into this!


I feel the need to say though, that I don't recall ever agreeing to hand out F1's free of charge....and I can't afford to do that! I have no problem with sharing...but not for free when I shelled out $50/mouse... I would never charge $50 for the offspring...but I did not agree to give them away free that I remember........and I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. I don't mean to be a jerk...but I don't think its fair to ask us to give away for free the offspring of mice we spent a fortune on...


----------



## sys15

it's just my opinion, but i think it is more important that we provide offspring to all interested fanciers, without contracts, without "only my friends" or "only if i approve of your breeding goals/keeping practices" restrictions, etc. than whether we charge a small fee or not.

i'll probably give mine away, if anyone requests them. but i don't think $5 or $10 is going to stand in any breeder's way of getting the mice they want. it's just insignificant alongside the transportation and time costs.

that's an impressive shipping container! and the mice are beautiful. i wish i was getting a couple of those blacks. wow, they are nice. and i wish my siamese had shown up in the photo. but everything photographed looks great.


----------



## Bella

Omg, those tans are amazing!! I must ask though... if there was a missing black tan, who gets the chocolate instead? I know I was kind of an extra in this, but my heart was really set on a black tan... I'd take the chocolate if need be... just saing.

Oh, and to add, those reds are amazing!! I wasn't quite expecting that... just not used to them I guess. So for whoever gotthose, hopefully semi close to me... I want an F1!!

THEY LOOK PERFECT!

ETA: In my excitement I read too fast, just realized candycorn said she was taking the replacement chocolate. ^^


----------



## Stina

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stinaksu/

Pics of my and christine's meeces in my flickr album  The one splashed doe she is getting has some of the best splashed markings I've seen! The chocolate splashed doe candycorn posted above looks like she does too. I LOOOOVE my agouti boy!...his coloring is striking! Can't wait for him and the red to darken as they mature


----------



## Jack Garcia

My blacks may finally have some competition. Well done! Enjoy your meece!


----------



## Laigaie

Bella: your black tan Doe is in the car with me, no worries


----------



## WoodWitch

Jack Garcia said:


> My blacks may finally have some competition. Well done! Enjoy your meece!


A joke???

Why on *earth* have these lovely people had to go to the massive time, trouble and expense of IMPORTING good blacks when YOU have them yourself, within the country and you are an active part of the American fancy?

Appalled :evil:


----------



## love2read




----------



## SarahY

WoodWitch said:


> Jack Garcia said:
> 
> 
> 
> My blacks may finally have some competition. Well done! Enjoy your meece!
> 
> 
> 
> A joke???
> 
> Why on earth have these lovely people had to go to the massive time, trouble and expense of IMPORTING good blacks when YOU have them yourself, within the country and you are an active part of the American fancy?
> 
> Appalled
Click to expand...

Totally agreed, WoodWitch. I thought the exact same thing when I saw this post :evil:

Anyway; a big congratulations to you all, American friends. I really hope those mice do a damn good job for you. It's been awesome to see you all work together to pull this off and start making good quality show mice available to the whole fancy, rather than tightly clutched in the hands of a few individuals. Well done xxx


----------



## candycorn

> I don't recall ever agreeing to hand out F1's free of charge....and I can't afford to do that!


Actually that is exactly what the breeders in England did. With one exception all these actual mice were free. We only paid shipping and handling. 
However I don't think anyone expects you to give them all away. I think the idea is that you share with active members of the fancy (free or at the normal 5 dollars each) so they don't get bottled up again. And I don't think anyone intended to make you give them all away. Just to make sure that some other breeders get your mice. People certainly don't breed mice to make money. And they breed...well like mice! LOL! If we give away the second or third litter from this first generation, the the genetics spread and we are all better off here in America. 
It's not about the money...it's about the ethics and principal of the thing.



WoodWitch said:


> Jack Garcia said:
> 
> 
> 
> My blacks may finally have some competition. Well done! Enjoy your meece!
> 
> 
> 
> A joke???
> 
> Why on *earth* have these lovely people had to go to the massive time, trouble and expense of IMPORTING good blacks when YOU have them yourself, within the country and you are an active part of the American fancy?
> 
> Appalled :evil:
Click to expand...

AND that is exactly why spreading out these F1 babies needs to happen.


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## MojoMouse

Like many others I've followed this thread with huge interest. A great team spirit, and brilliant work by the organisers! You should all be proud of that - it's not easy to get this level of group cooperation. I LOVE the mice you all got!!! 

Great pics as well!


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## love2read

I just picked him up! His expression says he's obviously not impress with all the traveling, lol.


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## love2read

Sorry the pic is so ginormous. My phone doesn't give very good resizing options...


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## Laigaie

And I'm about to sleep foe the first time in 24 hrs, snuggled up in the back of the Jeep absolutely surrounded by gorgeous, stunning, fantastic mice.

Also, Stina, if you're expecting to pull a Jack, you can kiss your reputation goodbye. I charged not a dime. The breeders of your mice, who are ON THIS FORUM, by the way, charged nothing. They and I and the other folks who helped (like Tara, who put me up) did so for our love of the fancy. We want it great, and that kind of attitude has gotten us nowhere. I'm frankly appalled to hear that after doing all this for you, for us, you'll charge us for the babies of the mice we organized for you. And whoever else you speak for can speak right up!

Suffice to say, yeah, you never signed a contract not to try to profit from these, because I thought better of my fellow fanciers.


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## WoodWitch

Laigaie said:


> And I'm about to sleep foe the first time in 24 hrs, snuggled up in the back of the Jeep absolutely surrounded by gorgeous, stunning, fantastic mice.
> 
> Also, Stina, if you're expecting to pull a Jack, you can kiss your reputation goodbye. I charged not a dime. The breeders of your mice, who are ON THIS FORUM, by the way, charged nothing. They and I and the other folks who helped (like Tara, who put me up) did so for our love of the fancy. We want it great, and that kind of attitude has gotten us nowhere. I'm frankly appalled to hear that after doing all this for you, for us, you'll charge us for the babies of the mice we organized for you. And whoever else you speak for can speak right up!
> 
> Suffice to say, yeah, you never signed a contract not to try to profit from these, because I thought better of my fellow fanciers.


You and your import comrades are just what the American fancy has been desperately in need of and your attitude is commendable amongst what we have seen from the American fancy so far.

As fellow fanciers, we over here in England WANT to see the fancy take off for you guys over in the USA. We want you to do well. We want to share our mice with you and see the favour payed forward amongst yourselves. Only then will your fancy ever reach the heights that it can.

I'm so glad to see the positivity from you guys and the desire to push things forward.
Wonderful!

Best of luck. Really mean it xxx


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## love2read

Well-said Laigaie!


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## SarahC

I'm sorry about the missing cham tan doe,it remained behind in the cage litter,not actually lost.Of those,one doe is around 6 weeks,the buck also a youngster and the other an adult doe.Only average,I wasn't expecting to supply any so had nothing much but more than capable of breeding top stuff in your capable hands,all the best,may you breed 100's of top mice.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I am extremely excited to meet my red doe. I have to find a very suitable name!!! Everyone's gone to such effort. It is nice to see reputation defined differently, from a very welcome new public opinion.


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## Rhasputin

Woah woah woah. Stina is NOT pulling a 'Jack', that was extremely un-called for!

Me and Stina, and at least 2 other people I know of directly, are going to charge for the mice. I never agreed not to charge for them. All of the breeders that I know of are selling them 100% contract free, however, and without discrimination, and THAT is the point of this import!

Like Stina, at $50 each, there's no way that I could afford to not charge for the offspring. Mice are part of the way that I make my living. I'm not going to CHARGE $50 each for the offspring, obviously, but they are not free.
It is common practice, from my understanding, for UK fanciers to not charge for their mice. Just like it is regular practice here, to charge around $5 each for the mice.

Nobody is trying to hoard the mice. Not me, not Stina, and not the other breeders (who I will not specifically name unless that speak up). But like I said, parroting Stina, I just couldn't possibly afford it without charging for the mice.


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## Stina

> Also, Stina, if you're expecting to pull a Jack, you can kiss your reputation goodbye. I charged not a dime. The breeders of your mice, who are ON THIS FORUM, by the way, charged nothing. They and I and the other folks who helped (like Tara, who put me up) did so for our love of the fancy. We want it great, and that kind of attitude has gotten us nowhere. I'm frankly appalled to hear that after doing all this for you, for us, you'll charge us for the babies of the mice we organized for you. And whoever else you speak for can speak right up!


Are you freaking kidding me???!!!!!!!! I understand they charged us nothing....they also didn't have to pay $50 a piece to get them to us....I'm extremely greatful...and do NOT expect to make money off these mice....I just can't AFFORD to give them away for FREE (I probably WOULD give them to YOU for free...since you did all the legwork on it...but to other's that haven't invested a thing in it I just can't afford to pass them out for free)! I have no problem sharing and trading between those of us that brought them in, and spreading them around to others (as I ALREADY said), I just CAN'T do so for free and I can't believe you'd attack me for saying so! EXTREMELY uncalled for and I can't believe you are threatening me! I understand the point of this import is spreading the genes around!....I AGREED TO DO THAT...I just did NOT agree to do so for free!! I NEED to recoup my money! I make NO money off ANY of my animals and my husband and I are in very significant debt right now!...if I knew I was going to be expected to give the babies away for free and could get them for free from someone else I would not have gone in on the shipment. It is EXTREMELY unfair of you to attack me for wanting to recoup my money on this when it was NEVER agreed to that we weren't going to charge anything! If I was shipping mice to Europe, NO I would not charge for the mice.....but I wouldn't expect them to give all the offspring away for free either!!

I'm extremely hurt by your animosity towards me as I haven't done anything wrong  I plan on doing what I agreed to do, and that's spread the mice around....I just CAN'T give away all the offspring for free!


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## Kingnoel

I too am very impressed with the level of cooperation it took for you guys to pull this together. As somebody very interested in F 1's I'd be willing to pay the same as you guys per mouse (up to $50). Now to just get some to the West Coast 

Congratulations again, they all look gorgeous!


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## candycorn

Rhasputin said:


> Since we're going into this as a community, we need to really look at 'what does the mousing community need as a whole' rather than what each person indivudually wants, I think.


Look. If you guys NEED to sell mice for 5 dollars each to make yourselves feel better that you spent hundreds of dollars so be it. But be honest. You did not buy those mice. You paid for shipping. If someone in Washington state wants a F1 red from me...then I will be giving away the mouse for free and they pay for shipping...just like I did. And if someone in Virginia wants one of these guys...then they are driving to me to get it. The shipping money is gone. It's not something you can make up...it's something you did in order to do something for "the mousing community" as a whole. It's just the RIGHT thing to do.



Stina said:


> if I knew I was going to be expected to give the babies away for free and could get them for free from someone else I would not have gone in on the shipment. It is EXTREMELY unfair of you to attack me for wanting to recoup my money on this when it was NEVER agreed to that we weren't going to charge anything! If I was shipping mice to Europe, NO I would not charge for the mice.....but I wouldn't expect them to give all the offspring away for free either!!


No one EVER said you had to give away every single baby from every single litter you ever produce of your new mice. They said for the good of the community they should be spread around with no obligations, contracts, or fees...so that the mouse community in American can grow togeather! If you sell those extra 6 babies at 5 bucks each...you are not going to "recoup your money" anyway.

Arguing over a few bucks make you both look petty and selfish. It's shameful. This was for the community. Not for greed. Not for profit. For the benifit of all. At least that is how it was started...and the impression that many of the members of this board were under. It's only 2 or 3 hundred bucks. Nothing in the grand sceme of things. Shoot...I paid 3x more for my dog and I can't breed her!

I am sure there are plenty here willing to pay your part of the shipping to have those mice and give away some F1 babies. Feel free to back out since you would not have gone in on the shipping if you had known.


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## Seafolly

Those photos are stunning! Each and every mouse pictured is amazing and I actually wish for a moment I lived in the States. ;D I don't think I want to know how much it would cost to get a couple of mice to Canada. You're a lucky group! Well done with all the teamwork!


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## candycorn

Seafolly said:
 

> Those photos are stunning! Each and every mouse pictured is amazing and I actually wish for a moment I lived in the States. ;D I don't think I want to know how much it would cost to get a couple of mice to Canada. You're a lucky group! Well done with all the teamwork!


It really might not be too bad. It might be worth checking. Could they be shipped closer and then driven over the border?


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## Seafolly

Quite possibly! My plan is to see how this litter goes (Tully looks like she's about to pop any day now) and if I'm mass-mouse-owner material I'll definitely do some poking around! There was someone mentioned in Quebec which could be a lot easier without the border involved. But the ones you guys photographed were pretty droolworthy so I had to express my envy.  I think a good texel would be my first goal but that's pretty unrealistic at this stage (I don't know if Canada has that...but then again I didn't know we had satin or longhaired until two months ago, haha). The buck doesn't look too bad considering his origins, but the doe is very obviously pet store mouse. It'll take a while to change that I think without bringing in new blood.


----------



## Stina

> Arguing over a few bucks make you both look petty and selfish. It's shameful. This was for the community. Not for greed. Not for profit. For the benifit of all. At least that is how it was started...and the impression that many of the members of this board were under.


I was NEVER under the impression I had to give away F1's for free...nor do I think it is petty, selfish, or shameful to try to recoup the investment. Had I known I would be personally attacked and threatened for doing something that is not in any way wrong or anything I agreed to I never would have gone in on this as I generally try to stay OUT fo the drama and bs and that's what this is becoming. I'm NOT doing ANYTHING for greed or profit! My husband NEVER would have LET me go in on this if he thought I wouldn't be able to recoup any of the money. $250 is not a drop in the bucket....its a lot of money when you have none. As I said, I've NEVER made ANY money off ANY of my animals....I'm in the hole THOUSANDS of dollars across all of our pets and I will NEVER make all of that back, and have no intention of trying to do so. There is NOTHING wrong or shameful about trying to recoup SOME of my money though and its not fair to attack me for doing so! I'm clearly not the only one (there is at least one other besides casey and myself...casey says at least 2 others) who didn't realize we were going to be expected to give away our offspring for free. This kind of bs is why people drop out of the hobby or just plain out of sight.

(edited purely to fix quote...)


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## candycorn

Stina said:


> ....its a lot of money when you have none. As I said, I've NEVER made ANY money off ANY of my animals....I'm in the hole THOUSANDS of dollars across all of our pets and I will NEVER make all of that back, and have no intention of trying to do so.


If you had none than this was definatly not something you should have done. Sorry...it sounds harsh. But if you are that broke...how can you afford vet bills, food, etc? Pets are not cheap. The money is spent...let it go. You paid for the shipping for one reason. To ensure that you got the type of mice you wanted and to get them first. That is why people pooled into this shipment. It was never about making money. And if it was, then it would have behooved ou to ship in your own mice. It was clear from post one that each person who paid on the ground floor was doing is as a donation to spread to others. 
In all honesty..what were you planning to charge? 20? 30? 40 bucks each? If it was only the 5 mentioned on this thread...why such a concern? 
Again I repeat..no one expected all the further generations to be free. 
Just some, to pass on the lines.



> I'm clearly not the only one (there is at least one other besides casey and myself...casey says at least 2 others)


Then they should come forward and speak for themselves. I have heard nothing but positive things except for you two. Otherwise I will assume you are both the only ones not on board.


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## mouselover01

Wow.

This import was supposed to benefit all mouse fanciers alike.

I think imposing restrictions on what we can and can not do with out babies, is just like JACK!

He says we can't sell them to certain people, can't do this, can't do that. 
This is no different.

Its a shame. Its the Jack game in a different name.

I would have NEVER expected the people in this import, who worked so hard together, to now be threatening and shunning people like this. I'm truly in shock. Its Jack all over again. :-/

I hope to trade my import mice for other import mice or buy others for sure. I saw the most beautiful extreme blacks I've ever seen and I would love to get in touch with their owner to setup a trade or BUY babies from them.

It was never said, to my knowledge, that our babies would be given away free of charge.

I am in $600.00 on this between mice, gas, etc. That for me isn't a walk in the park, that is 2 mortgage payments on my house. I am sorry to say I will be charging a small fee for my import mice. I am sure others are in more.

I do not expect to make a profit or even break even on what I spent on them, but I do need to offset the cost of these mice.

I'm am unfortunitely not wealthy enough to give that much money away and I am so sorry to those who thought I could. The last thing I want is to make people think one thing and do another. I am a very fair person.

I would never expect other breeders to give me their import mice free and I REFUSE to take them free from anyone who has them!!

And to add on to what stina said about not making money on pets, I have 2 puppies I got last year. One of which was diagnosed with bad orthopedic problems at 4 months of age. Between my 2 puppies, since last year, I have spent approximitely $10,000 on vet care and other care with about $4500 more in anticipated surgeries to come in the next year.

I don't know about the others, but that is how I feel, and I don't think I'm selfish, greedy, or anything of the sort.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone and I'm sorry for not speaking up sooner. I am still driving and was shocked to see this thread that I had to stop and post.

If others feel the same way, please don't be AFRAID to post as I was a little intimidated to say my opinion at fear of being shunned and threatened as stina was. It is not supposed to be like that.


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## Stina

Well said Elena!

I was planning to charge $10-15 each...and I still am. You can attack me all you want...but there is nothing wrong with that and it is NOT greedy. If I have to pay vet bills so be it (though I do almost all of my own rodent "vet" care anyway)...but that doesn't mean I don't have a right to charge a bit for offspring to recoup some of my investment.


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## mouselover01

And seafolly, I'm a couple hrs from Niagara falls canada. Possibly we can meetup on the US side?


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## candycorn

I don't think it's Jack in a different way.... I think it's a misunderstanding that ALL the mice need to be free. It was just an idea that we were supposed to spread the mice with no obligations. 
I talked to my coworkers at work in order to see if perhaps I was being hardheaded in my stance to follow what the organiser wished to see happen. 
Here is the quote I was given.



> To an extent I understand what she is saying, but yeah... giving a few away really won't kill anything. You have to ask-- is it about the money, or is it about spreading new/interesting/rare genetics across the country?


And that is it in a nutshell.

By giving away part of one litter what is anyone really out? 20 / 30 bucks? It's just so petty. It really is.

If I give away 6 of my F1 mice...and then sell 5 more generations for 5 bucks each...I will in fact recoup that initial investment in shipping and more. So clearly this is not about money.

It's about control.

But fine...do what you like.

_____________________________

ON a lighter happy note. That chocolate tan I got last night will have her litter soon. Sooner than anyone who got in on this shipment was expecting. I only plan to keep one or two does from that litter. I would love to hear from folks who are interested in being on that F1 (or gosh...since they are already in her...they are pre-F1) list to receive these guys/gals. I don't want to cull all the bucks if people would like them. Shoot me a PM. I don't currently know how to ship, but would be happy to learn with some help.


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## mouselover01

Tara, I would like a chocolate tan buck and doe. I don't want them free though please. I'd like to give you $50 for the pair. I can pickup as well and probably grab others if there are people on my route who want them.

And I can give you a hand on shipping. Its pretty easy


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## love2read

Although I think it's wrong to shun people for charging a fee, I, personally, do not feel right charging money for F1 mice from ANYWHERE, be they from the UK, the US, or even a pet store. It doesn't take any work to stick 2 mice together and let em go at it. There's no pride to be had in that, imo.

F2 I MIGHT charge for, depending on who's wanting them(a newbie I would charge, a friend or breeder I know I probably wouldn't). I prefer to have at least a couple "homemade" generations on my mice before I consider the babies to be my own.

Since I still consider myself a newbie and haven't had show-type mice for all that long I'm just now getting to my third generation and will probably start charging small adoption fees for this next generation of mice I get.

I guess I just don't feel right making a profit on someone else's hard work. I tried it when I had my first show-type litters and it just didn't seem right so I ended up giving them away after that.

That being said, I would NEVER expect someone to give me mice for free. Nor would I expect people who get mice from me not to sell their offspring. Even if I give someone mice for free I still expect to pay for any mice I'm getting back from them(although sometimes they won't let me...*grumbles* lol).

So, if someone wants to sell their F1 babies I think that's their own business. Everyone now knows who will be selling and who will be giving away babies. Since we'll probably all have our first F1 babies available around the same time I'm sure that those who will be SELLING them will figure out pretty quickly that customers prefer their mice free versus for a fee and when they end up with a bunch of older babies and nowhere to keep them they'll probably end up giving them away anyways. Ha ha!

Let's not fret about things that don't really matter. To each their own.  When the time comes everything will work itself out and the world will keep on spinning! :mrgreen:


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## love2read

Candycorn, if you're going to be over this way any time in the future I would LOVE a Chocolate Tan doe(I'd actually love multiple does...but I don't wanna hoard em all, lol) to go with my Red buck! If not, it's all good. I can just wait for the love to spread and eventually reach OH. :mrgreen:


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## moustress

I am definitely interested in F1 or F2's...

Anyone who thinks they can make money or recover what they spend on upkeep for raising meeces...that's ridiculous! Charging a token fee for placing your meeces with another breeder is reasonable, as long as it's not too high. But the main thing is making sure the critters go to good breeders, and are in good shape when that is done.

A lot of people have spent a lot of time and effort to bring these English and European mousies into the country, and it's sad to see folks quibbling over a few dollars. I think you should all take up a collection to benefit Lagaie to repay her for her time, effort, expense (it ain't free to drive back and forth across the country.)

I'll be glad to pay a bit for any offspring that I can my hands on, if that is workable at some point. The time and effort we put into breeding and raising good, healthy young mousies is something that none of us can ever be adequately compensated except in the form of respect and admiration, openly stated, for the generosity of all who made this possible.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Please, guys, why would we come together and use so much cooperation only to fall apart now? This was supposed to bring us together. Maybe we can just leave this issue to ourselves and potential mouse adotors can choose who they adopt from, knowing who charges and who does not. What i have always done is asked for donations if i travel to give the mice" but they are free if pickup is done. I would still be uncomfotable asking a set fee, but I mean, if someone thinks they have to to appease family, i have been in that situation too. OOverall I just want my babies treated right. That us whats important to me. I hope all my friends can get past this issue somehow. I love you all! Youd better not fall apart now!


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## Jack Garcia

What is friendly competition, if not friendly? 

Seriously, you have my best wishes. Peace!


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## Cait

So, after all the stress of travelling, did all the mice arrive ok? Even though mice I have sent abroad in the past have all been fine, I always worry that one or more will arrive with a respiratory infection or something equally undesirable. They all look great in the photos though :mrgreen:


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## candycorn

MouseBreeder said:


> So, after all the stress of travelling, did all the mice arrive ok? Even though mice I have sent abroad in the past have all been fine, I always worry that one or more will arrive with a respiratory infection or something equally undesirable. They all look great in the photos though :mrgreen:


Mine looked fantastic this morning. All the does were curled up happily under thier hide and the boys had already started neat nests!


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## candycorn

love2read said:


> Although I think it's wrong to shun people for charging a fee, I, personally, do not feel right charging money for F1 mice from ANYWHERE, be they from the UK, the US, or even a pet store. It doesn't take any work to stick 2 mice together and let em go at it. There's no pride to be had in that, imo.


I definatly agree! What a great perspective to think about with these guys.


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## Jack Garcia

Au contraire! Ask any serious breeder of exhibition animals (dogs, horses, pigeons, cavies...) and they'll tell you that a lot of skill and good (or bad) decisions go into "stick[ing] 2 mice together" and there's a lot of pride to be had in producing a winning animal, of any variety. That's the nature of the process.


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## m137b

Wow, it is really amazing that you have all gotten together and done this. Congrats to everyone involved for your hard work and success.

Beautiful mice, I look forward to seeing more pics of them as they get settled in.


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## Laigaie

Here's my upset: Cait and I each put tons of hours into this. Our breeders went into this with a certain expectation. I represented us, and now those expectations are damaged. That makes us look pretty awful.

If you want ten dollars per mouse, that means each mouse only needs to produce 5 babies to recoup their purchase cost, 6 if they're tans. Maybe you put gas into it. That's a few more. Maybe you charge 15, so it's a few less. Now, how many F1s are you actually getting per mouse? A lot more than 5/6. That's called profit. Off other people's generosity. That makes me really, really angry. If you intended to profit off the work of others, you really should've had the honesty to say so.

Five bucks to help cover gas, or to someone you don't know? Whatever. Fifteen from someone you know because you need to recoup your money? I can't stop you, but I also won't work with you. Be all the offended/hurt you want, I sure am.


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## Laigaie

Jack: sticking two mice together is skilled when you're the one picking which two. When you're putting together the two chosen for you, not so much. Personally, I consider grand babies of the original mice "mine". The f1s are just what they would've had in anybody's hands.


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## Jack Garcia

In the US "gas costs" could easily run $300 between fanciers. It's a very big country.

I'm not defending (or offending) any particular person, just pointing out that gas costs in the US are a lot higher not due to the raw prices (currently around $4 per gallon) but rather to the distance traveled. I've routinely paid $500 to go to an animal show, most of it in travel expense.


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## mouselover01

Ah here we go again. People restricting mice to other people because they hope to help offset costs. *sigh*

And yeah about gas, like I said, with gas/etc, my mice cost about $600.00


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## Jack Garcia

Let the record show that cost has never been an issue for me. All my mice have always been free of charge except where a $5 minimum charge was necessitated by show rules.


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## mouselover01

Free of charge but with most would call ridiculous restrictions limiting the number of people in the country who can work with a certain variety, thus leading us to import the varieties already in the country ourselves... isn't that one of the reasons we choose to import and especially why we had to import blacks and reds.


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## Jack Garcia

The following people have adopted mice from me in the past few years: Kristen, Kadee, Jenny, Stina, Robin, Amber, Melissa, and others.

The situation you're in now--about whether to charge and, if so, how much--could easily have been prevented by getting things in writing so that expectations are 100% clear beforehand. That's what I do, and that's why people don't like my policies. But take note I don't have these issues.


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## mouselover01

I assumed it was not because your expectations are in writing but the expectations themselves that people have a problem with... ?


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## Jack Garcia

It is both. But the expectations are very clear, in order to prevent the things you see happening now.

By the way, if anyone who has new red bucks is in the Midwest and needs some cinnamon does to which they could cross the reds, I have a couple dozen that may be available (I had a recent baby boom). Here is one:


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## mouselover01

What are your restrictions/expectations if one were to want to adopt a doe from you?


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## Shadowrunner

Wow well that was unexpected.

I can understand from both points of view, and I see a few of you guys handled harsh words very well.
That's commendable too.

I personally am not going to charge anything, but I never do.
It's something I take as pure enjoyment. And I like sharing that joy, it makes me feel good.
That's selfish in it's own way.
But I understand wanting to make up some of that money.
People will do what they will, don't worry too hard about it guys.<3

I for one still have not been able to catch my breath looking at these blacks.
They look like they are living obsidian. I'm uploading pictures as soon as I find my camera.
Did the blacks come from dave safe or was it someone else? I need to write them a thank you note.
I need to write a lot of people thank you notes.


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## Cait

Shadowrunner said:


> Did the blacks come from dave safe or was it someone else?


They came from spitfire on this forum


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## Wight Isle Stud

Surely you lot want to establish a nucleus of the breeds you have acquired before you even consider passing any on ? I find 20- 30 mice of young fit breeding age will keep up with a show schedule , and allow me to let someone have a trio or two now and again. It will be a fair while until any of you are at that level. Crossing to other Mice ? Your mad !!!- it wont be long until your remembering when you had some purebred Imports.


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## Stina

> I guess I just don't feel right making a profit on someone else's hard work.


What profit???....I NEVER said I was making a profit...I said the EXACT OPPOSITE. I have NEVER made ANY money on ANY of my animals, and I don't expect to!!! I SAID THAT ALREADY. And I don't see how charging $10-15 per mouse is restricting ANYONE from getting them! I also ended up with only TWO does...I didn't even get the third doe I was supposed to, I got an extra buck! I didn't complain about it before b/c I didn't want to stir anything up...but now I didn't even get what I wanted AND I'm being attacked and threatened b/c I want to charge a perfectly reasonable fee for the offspring of the mice I've recieved! At $15 (and that's IF I charged that) it would take over 16 offspring to make up the $250 I spent on the mice alone...let alone the bit of gas money I spent and supplies....I have TWO DOES....I do NOT expect to recoup ALL my money, or even make a profit off these mice. And NO, it is not all about the money....again, not expecting to make anything off them... I really can't believe the amount of judgemental bs about this....Yeah...its $10-15 bucks...who is going to not get them b/c they're $10-15?????!!! I'm not keeping them from anyone!


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## SarahY

C'mon guys, don't let this happen! You've all worked so hard together.

Whether you agree or not, people can do what they like with their own stock. Whether they are free or cost money, they aren't being withheld like they were when good typey mice were in the hands of a few. And that is a very good thing.

And Jack? It's interesting how you've suddenly become helpful, now that these people have something you want. Interesting... and very sad :roll:  :evil:


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## Stina

> C'mon guys, don't let this happen! You've all worked so hard together.
> 
> Whether you agree or not, people can do what they like with their own stock. Whether they are free or cost money, they aren't being withheld like they were when good typey mice were in the hands of a few. And that is a very good thing.


Wise words!


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## Wight Isle Stud

I wonder if this helps a little, its on the subject of charging and its what I have arrived at after 35 years of parting with Exhibition Mice. All my dear friends in the Fancy Pay Nothing. So as not to be a Hypocrite, providing a person is an Exhibiting NMC member , if they are not a friend they also pay nothing. However, we do get a percentage of members who join and leave the Fancy at the first sign of any difficulty. Therefore all new members Pay. This raises the Profile of the Exhibition Mouse, and distinguishes them from the lowly petshop Mouse. Of course as they become Exhibiting members then Mice are free to mates. Whats happening with the imports at the moment over the Pond is more or less what happens when a new variety is established in this country. Everybody wants them.A strain is built up, and various Trios are spread out to the Solid Breeders, for the security of the breed. eventually everyone has them. Deflect all offers of swops, outcrosses etc, they are merely an attempt to get them off of you. Especially poorly coloured cinnamons !!!


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## candycorn

Wight Isle Stud said:


> Deflect all offers of swops, outcrosses etc, they are merely an attempt to get them off of you. Especially poorly coloured cinnamons !!!


LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

I am done. I care not. I just wanted to see the wish of the organizers made true. I wash my hands of the whole thing. I am going to enjoy the dickens of my cuties and spread the joy whenever I can!!!


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## Stina

Those wishes obviously weren't made clear to all of us involved...so it is what it is. We have every right to sell the offspring for a reasonable charge.

At any rate....as far as hwo they arrived...my red doe is very snuffly (I can hear her from several feet away) and one of christine's splashed does is just slightly noisey if I get her close to my ear....  They were like that when I got them home....they'd probably get over it on their own....but I'm going to start them all on baytril just to be safe....I would be devastated if I lost anyone!


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## Jack Garcia

SarahY said:


> And Jack? It's interesting how you've suddenly become helpful, now that these people have something you want. Interesting... and very sad :roll:  :evil:


You're ascribing your own values here. Take a deep breath, and relax. I don't want anything. I'm in the middle of a three-year hold from bringing in new stock so I can concentrate on the varieties I have. Besides, even if I asked for all of them, wouldn't it be contrary to the stated goals ("to share them") to say no to a single person due to personal issues?



mouselover01 said:


> What are your restrictions/expectations if one were to want to adopt a doe from you?


You must give me your first born child, renounce your citizenship in favor of my own principality's, sign a contract in your own blood stating permanent spiritual, financial, and political allegiance, and pay me $10,000. Or drive to my house. I live very far away from most people.



Shadowrunner said:


> I see a few of you guys handled harsh words very well. That's commendable too.


Thank you.


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## love2read

Wight Isle Stud said:


> Surely you lot want to establish a nucleus of the breeds you have acquired before you even consider passing any on ? I find 20- 30 mice of young fit breeding age will keep up with a show schedule , and allow me to let someone have a trio or two now and again. It will be a fair while until any of you are at that level. Crossing to other Mice ? Your mad !!!- it wont be long until your remembering when you had some purebred Imports.


Sadly, not all of us are able to do that because we only got one sex(or, in my case, only one MOUSE). 

I got a Red boy and am TOTALLY in love with him and his color is amazing, but he's going to need some work on his type, so I'm going to be getting a pretty Chocolate buck from Beth to put him with to improve type while keeping color. Her mice, imo, could easily rivel some of the beauties I see you guys in the UK posting pics of, so I don't feel too bad crossing him to one of her girls. :mrgreen:

Once I get babies I'll try and keep a line or 2 of mosly "pure" Reds going though. Hopefully I'll eventually be able to snatch up a couple pure F1s from someone who got Red pairs/trios though.

I promise to do my best with what I've got though and make my boy's breeder proud.


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## Jack Garcia

Wight Isle Stud said:


> Surely you lot want to establish a nucleus of the breeds you have acquired before you even consider passing any on ? I find 20- 30 mice of young fit breeding age will keep up with a show schedule , and allow me to let someone have a trio or two now and again. It will be a fair while until any of you are at that level. Crossing to other Mice ? Your mad !!!- it wont be long until your remembering when you had some purebred Imports.


This is very sound husbandry advice. Thank you for posting it!


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## moustress

Shipping meeces is always a risk; heck, taking them out of the house at all can be stressful. Temperature control is often lacking in transfer from planes to receiving/reshipping; I am am trying to send out affirming and strengthening vibe to both the much traveled mousies and the people who are receiving them.

Let's not get so overwrought that we fail to take care of ourselves and the lovelies. You all have done so well up to today, working together towards a common goal, and all the generosity shown really warms my heart. I pray that you will all be kind to one another and not get overwrought and say thing that cannot be taken back.

I'd like even less to see fighting and biting among the breeders than I do among my bucks. Some things are better left unsaid, just as some folks are better not seen or heard at all. Be good to one another. You've done something really good with the help and cooperation of a good many mousing-folk, so make it all good from here on.


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## Stina

btw in sharing the health status I wasn't implying anyone is at fault...simply answering the question that someone asked about how they arrived. I don't know how any others arrived as I didn't go to the airport....I just know I have a couple that arrived here with sniffles...so anyone who has recieved/is recieving mice from the shipment will want to listen closely!


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## candycorn

moustress said:


> I'd like even less to see fighting and biting among the breeders than I do among my bucks.


Just as an aside and a funny story. When we opened the box we found that instead of setting up everyone in trios like we asked...all the bucks were in container together! They were perfectly fine of course but we sure are lucky! Does however explain why the smell was god awful...they were trying to out-pee each other!


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## Stina

oh my! lol I already had to separate the 2 aby bucks...


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## sys15

moustress said:


> But the main thing is making sure the critters go to good breeders, and are in good shape when that is done.


not to start even more drama, but in my opinion that is not at all the main thing. rather, the main thing is to make sure they are distributed to anyone that wants them, regardless of whether you think they are a good breeder or not.

i really hope we eventually stop trying to judge one another, over and over and over again.


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## love2read

Hmmm...I'm going to have to disagree with you on that Sys15. Everyone's definition of a "good breeder" varies. To some a "good breeder" would be a person who culls all of their babies except what they'll keep for themselves and they will only sell/give babies to other breeders and won't sell them as pets.

To others a "good" home could be only pet homes and not breeders?

There's also the issue of "feeder breeders". Some breeders refuse to let their mice go to homes where they will be bred for feeders and others have no problems with it.

So, I think the main concern of a GOOD BREEDER should be a good home for their mice based upon their own idea of what a good home is. I don't think a good breeder would sell to just anyone and not ask any questions or anything and if they didn't feel that someone was a good home then they shouldn't sell to them.

To sell mice to anyone, "regardless of whether you think they are a good breeder or not" would be the sign of a greedy, money-hungry breeder who cares only about the money and not about the well-being of the mice that they breed.

Just my $0.02.


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## sys15

love2read said:


> Hmmm...I'm going to have to disagree with you on that Sys15. Everyone's definition of a "good breeder" varies.


exactly! that's why we should stop being so judgmental. stop trying to place everyone else in some spectrum of good to bad or ethical to unethical and just enjoy our own animals and help others have access to the animals they'd like to have (if and when possible).


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## Bella

Just my two cents here:

I will be charging for any of my mice sold here, locally. Why? Because a free mouse is a dead mouse, in an area so heavily populated by herpers as it is here.

Anyone on here want some F1's or 2's or so forth? No cost. I trust that you all will want them to further the fancy, not to feed your slithering friends.

Heck, I'm not against feeders! I own snakes, and I feed mice. But I most certainly will not be feeding mice that we have worked so hard to import from another country. I have white feeders for the snakes. Fancies are a completely different hobby in this house.


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## Shadowrunner

Well that makes sense to me. That would be a shame. 
(Unless it's candy,lol
She has snakes ans show mice at the same time. xD)

I noticed last night a few of my does are a touch wheezy. But that could be just the dust from the aspen bedding.
Or stress. I've bulked up their diets and set them somewhere quiet and stable for now.
I will be putting my best blues to the black self as soon as quarantine is cleared..
That's why I wanted blacks to begin with, so in addition to the F1 babies, I will hopefully have some blue carriers too.
The one I have in mind is a doe related to the mice I got from Westminster and another distantly related to Beth's mice.
Is anyone else planning a similar arrangement?

I think everyone is wound up from being excited, and anxious. Everything will be fine, and even if one or two people do
in fact withhold ALL mice they breed(I'm not saying anyone will, this is a worst case example) there will be just as many of us doing the opposite.

For now we should worry about keeping them healthy like someone suggested before. No use worrying about babies if
we can't get em to breed anyway. I love you guys dearly, I'm sure everything will work itself out.


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## tinyhartmouseries

I will not be giving out my mice willy nilly to anyone. I won't give mice to people who would hurt them through ignorance or purposefully, or breed a female to death, or personally I don't want a whole lot of feeding going on. I am all too willing to help people get started and educate, for sure. I am probably a lot more willing to help beginners with mice than some others. 
It's just that, for example, I would not send mice to someone who intentionally only feeds popcorn and uses cedar bedding, and breeds a doe back to back until she's two. That's extreme, but you get my drift, I would just want to know that my mice would be in safe. loving hands, regardless of minute differences in breeding or keeping styles.

I am sure no one means that we should give our mice away with no regard to the quality of life they will have. I am not sure why I would give mice to someone I couldn't trust.

I don't think that's horrible of me to say, either. I really care about each mouse I breed and want the best for them.


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## Stina

> I will not be giving out my mice willy nilly to anyone. I won't give mice to people who would hurt them through ignorance or purposefully, or breed a female to death, or personally I don't want a whole lot of feeding going on. I am all too willing to help people get started and educate, for sure. It's just that, for example, I would not send mice to someone who intentionally only feeds popcorn and uses cedar bedding, and breeds a doe back to back until she's two. That's extreme, but you get my drift, I would just want to know that my mice would be in safe hands, regardless of minute differences in breeding styles.
> 
> I don't think that's horrible of me to say, either. I really care about each mouse I breed and want the best for them.


100% ditto. It's part of being a responsible breeder to care about where they go. There are more than enough people that I feel are responsible that want the offspring of these mice, I see no need to pass them off to someone that's going to be irresponsible with them. Giving them to people who are going to "ruin" them, will do no more good for the fancy than being stingy with them. I've ALWAYS been willing to work with new breeders and I still am (and the only things I normally ask of my adopters is that they don't intentionally breed a doe under 12 weeks, don't intentionally breed does back to back repeatedly, and don't give/sell to pet stores or give out descendants to anyone who might give/sell to pet stores)...but that doesn't mean I'd give ANY mice I bred to someone who I think might neglect or abuse them in any way....or try to exploit them or sell/give them to pet stores. The point of the import is to benefit the fancy in the US...that means making sure people who want to work to improve the varieties should be able to get them...not necessarily anyone and everyone...just having a gene around doesn't mean its doing the fancy any good. Having brought in typey mice will mean nothing if they are all given to people who don't breed carefully and all the type is lost (which could easily happen).


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## sys15

Stina said:


> the only things I normally ask of my adopters is that they don't intentionally breed a doe under 12 weeks, don't intentionally breed does back to back repeatedly, and don't give/sell to pet stores or give out descendants to anyone who might give/sell to pet stores)...


wait, so how exactly are you different than jack (not to imply jack's philosophy is necessarily wrong, but you seemed to object to the comparison earlier)? you only allow your mice out of your collection with conditions regarding their care, their propagation and the disposition of not only the animals you sell (i mean not really sell, since you wish to retain some ownership rights, but charge for), but also of their offspring. you even appear to insist that anyone that might receive a mouse from you has the obligation to consider your conditions when dispersing of their own excess offspring.


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## Stina

the only condition towards future breeders is not giving them to pet stores...what is so bad about that? What is so bad about requesting breeders not breed the animals I gave them (has nothing to do with future generations) back to back or does that are too young to do so healthily???... I don't believe those are unreasonable in ANY way....They are SIMPLE requests that any breeder that is in any way responsible would be following without my request anyway. So far as I'm concerned there is NOTHING wrong with trying to prevent animal cruelty or practices that will physically harm the animals that I might give to someone....(Btw jack is a friend of mine...and while I don't agree with everything he does...I don't see how I'm anywhere near as stingy with my animals as he is...and I wasn't objecting to a comparison to jack per se, but to what she was implying with the "comparison"...btw he had no idea this shipment was even happening till a couple days ago)...

And I DID agree that there would be no sort of contract with f1's of these mice...which is why I said "normally ask of" in my post above.


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## Jack Garcia

Stina said:


> (Btw jack is a friend of mine...and while I don't agree with everything he does...I don't see how I'm anywhere near as stingy with my animals as he is...and I wasn't objecting to a comparison to jack per se, but to what she was implying with the "comparison")...


Be careful linking yourself to me. Soon you'll be called an elitist and told your standards are too high! The horror!


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## tinyhartmouseries

sys15, I have to admit to being confused about what you are implying the ideal breeder would do. If someone told me they would take a pair of my mice and perform vivisections on all the young, wouldn't I have the right to say, uh! no! I don't want to be helping you perpetuate that! I mean, they are my mice, most of whom I've got 7-10 gens on, I do feel I have the right to ensure them, as much as possible, a comfortable and happy life. I just don't understand how that makes me wrong? I am not even against someone mixing varieties or breeding for tiny ears. I just want to make sure there isn't mistreatment or cruelty involved, and I am well within my rights to do everything I can to prevent that!

Basically, if people are looking for mice from a certain breeder, and the do not like some restrictions, they will move on and find a breeder that is cool with it. I will not be heartbroken in the slightest. I have done it. Even with the attitudes of a few breeders, I have managed to find very beautiful mice from more people. Right now I have mice from upwards of 5 breeders that I consider very high quality indeed.

I am fine with people here, and like I said, I've been known to offer to help new breeders too, with whatever I can. We may have to agree to disagree, and since I am 100% confident in my practices, as are my adoptors, I won't be changing anything due to this discussion.


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## sys15

Stina said:


> the only condition towards future breeders is not giving them to pet stores...what is so bad about that? What is so bad about requesting breeders not breed the animals I gave them (has nothing to do with future generations) back to back or does that are too young to do so healthily???...


from my perspective, what is "so bad about" it is that it treats other breeders like children, incapable or untrustworthy to exercise their own judgement about how best to manage their animals.

to a lesser extent, i also object to the absolute statements that you seem so prone to, regarding what no responsible breeder would do. i've bred females younger than 12 weeks. i've bred females back to back. the world kept spinning. my mice somehow survived.


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## tinyhartmouseries

Breeding does before they reach physical maturity, which is generally 12 weeks, takes nutrients away from bodies that are still growing. Yes, a teenager can have a baby, but is it for the best for both baby and mother's physical growth and development? Your mice may have survived but they were not at optimal physical conditions to carry young. This is pretty simply a fact arrived at through several centuries of selective breeding. Sure you can do it, but if you want the very best quality mice you can produce, it's best for mom to be in peak condition.

If you are unhappy with breeders' requests for their mice, the answer is very simple indeed. Don't adopt from them.


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## sys15

tinyhartmouseries said:


> sys15, I have to admit to being confused about what you are implying the ideal breeder would do.


an ideal breeder would not attempt to control how other breeders manage their colonies.

of course you have the right to not provide your mice to someone you think is going to torture them. if i thought other mouse fanciers were seeking new bloodlines as much to torture them as to improve their own colonies, then i'd be reluctant to offer other fanciers any of my mice, regardless of how rare or common their genetics. however, i don't share that worldview.


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## sys15

tinyhartmouseries said:


> If you are unhappy with breeders' requests for their mice, the answer is very simple indeed. Don't adopt from them.


i'm simply sharing my thoughts on selling/giving away mice. i don't object to any other breeder advocating any other position. i do find the thoughts of some of the other recipients of the transatlantic shipment ironic, given the origins of this thread. but they certainly have the right to disperse of their surplus animals however they see fit.

re. the detrimental effects of breeding females younger than 12 weeks. data please.


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## Stina

survival doesn't imply optimum health. I've bred does back to back too...but only once at a time (i.e. one litter after one other litter, then with a break)...I said "repeatedly" You may object to my statements...but is a fact that it negatively effects the long term health and welfare of does to breed them too young and too often...so I stand by my implication that it is irresponsible and cruel to breed does too young or overbreed them.

And no, asking people to honor a request is not treating them like "children" its treating people like people. Most other mammalian species from respected and reputable breeders are sold or adopted with a contract...but not one as barely restrictive as basically "don't give to pet stores, breed too young, or overbreed." I don't think it does anything to gain respect for mice as a respectable fancy when they are treated as lesser animals not deserving of the same treatment as other species. When we got our show dogs and signed the contracts for them I didn't feel I was being treated like a child...I felt like the breeders were trying to make sure their babies were going to good homes where they'd be cared for properly.

btw...I don't even have a signed contract....I just ask people not to do it and hope they will respect the request.

Asking people to treat your babies how you feel is healthy for them is not telling them how to manage their entire colony btw....


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## sys15

Stina said:


> survival doesn't imply optimum health. I've bred does back to back too...but only once at a time (i.e. one litter after one other litter, then with a break)...I said "repeatedly" You may object to my statements...but is *a fact* that it negatively effects the long term health and welfare of does to breed them too young and too often...so I stand by my implication that it is irresponsible and cruel to breed does too young or overbreed them.


*data please.*

is it irresponsible and cruel to cull a female after you've obtained all the offspring you want from her? culling, i would argue, has a more severe and detrimental impact on the long-term health and welfare of the female than does being repeatedly bred.



Stina said:


> *Most other mammalian species from respected and reputable breeders are sold or adopted with a contract*...but not one as barely restrictive as basically "don't give to pet stores, breed too young, or overbreed."


*you really do have a gift for supporting your assertions with circular statements*

i wouldn't purchase a dog from a breeder that wished to enforce a contract either. but i don't really see the comparison. in how many other mammalian species do fanciers tend to cull off 80% or so of offspring before they're weaned? implicit in being a mouse fancier is an acceptance of keeping a species with a rapid life cycle and large litter sizes. with the death of the animals we keep.


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## Stina

You obviously disagree with my beliefs and the way I manage my colony and their offspring...and I can see that nothing I say will have any affect so I'm not going to bother with looking up the things I already know are facts to defend my decisions that I have every right to make regardless of those facts. My decisions for MY colony and their offspring is MY OWN...you can't tell me what to do with my mice that have nothing to do with you. If you don't want to agree to the very few requests I make of other breeders who get mice from me...dont' ask for my mice....

Regardless...this line of discussion has NOTHING to do with this thread (and thus should be ended) since I already said I would not be having any sort of contract whatsoever with the F1's from the imports.

(responsible dog breeders do cull btw...just not as often with euthanasia)


----------



## sys15

Stina said:


> My decisions for MY colony and their offspring is MY OWN...you can't tell me what to do with my mice that have nothing to do with you.


i wouldn't dream of doing so. that's kind of my whole point.


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## Stina

your point is irrelevant in relation to that quote. I do not have mice from you or descended from you so far as I'm aware...so they literally have nothing to do with you. btw, you ARE telling me to do with my mice by basically saying I shouldn't ask anything of the people I give them to.


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## Jack Garcia

sys15 said:


> culling, i would argue, has a more severe and detrimental impact on the long-term health and welfare of the female than does being repeatedly bred.


I love your sense of humor.


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## ekimsivad

Hi guys,

Just got back from my business trip and am delighted to hear that all your mice have arrived safely. I'm so sorry I was not able to help in the end as I know it meant the cost for each of you increased a little, unfortunately it was beyond my control.

My delight at your mice's safe arrival is being spoiled reading all this squabling that is now going on between you. I'm sure that most of the UK breeders who so kindly gave you their stock would have thought twice if they had realised it would all get so unpleasant between you. Man up guys and stop this petty argument. It is every individual's right to decide what they do with their stock, give it away or charge for it, either way it is nobody else's business!

With co-operation and careful selective breeding, this stock will set you up for many years to come. Please don't let this debate tear you all into factions. You need to work together and be wary of others offering their help and support now they realise they may no longer have a monopoly!!

Enjoy your mice 

Cheers, Mike


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## Stina

No one is upset with you Mike!...things happen!


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## Jack Garcia

ekimsivad said:


> they may no longer have a monopoly!!


Since there are at least six people who have mice descended from mine it is fair to say that I've never held a monopoly on anything (other than class and style, of course).

You cannot characterize strict adoption policies (on any animal) as unfair. Emma has said it best:

_If you are unhappy with breeders' requests for their mice, the answer is very simple indeed. Don't adopt from them._

Voila!


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## ekimsivad

Jack - I don't recall mentioning your name in my posting, but if the cap fits................. 

Stina - thanks for your kind words. I'm just glad you are all so happy with your mice. Many years ago I sent five different trios of mice over to a guy in New York state (he was a police officer I seem to recall). Sadly we lost touch and I suspect the mice eventually were lost to the US fancy. Don't you guys let that happen again. 

Mike


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## Jack Garcia

I'm so popular these days that you don't even have to mention my name. Funny how that works. In any civil discourse, though, it is required that one use accurate facts when discussing the policies and procedures (or behaviors and attitudes) of other people. Otherwise, to misrepresent that which you claim to counter is a variation upon the straw man argument (a logical fallacy which involves misrepresenting someone in order to argue against them) and is discredited as a discussion tactic.

For example, if I said that the Pope is addicted to a substance, therefore he needs to be admitted to a treatment center, this is a type of straw man argument because even though the conclusion may sound reasonable to most people, I've misrepresented the original situation on which it is based (the Pope is not addicted to a substance). Many straw man arguments are unintentional, which is what makes them so insidious.


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## ekimsivad

Jack, you are right. As a lawyer I should know better


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## Jack Garcia

Thank you. I think I was a lawyer in another life.


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## ekimsivad

Well you certainly put forward a persuasive argument .....


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## Jack Garcia

I am a very fat horse with my own big hairy mouth, so it is best to get information about my policies and procedures straight from me. I don't mind to displease people, but I'd like to do it myself rather than have others misrepresent me, my stud, or my policies.

Have a good day.


----------



## mouselover01

Jack, I already asked you about what you require/expect/policies in this thread and you brushd it off as a joke.

I was seriously asking and maybe if you would post your policies here where we can see them, there would not be anymore confusion as to your expectations and would clear some things up.

I know you can care less what people think but I want to know your policies so can you please post them?

I see nothing over the top about asking for that.


----------



## laoshu

I am glad to see the mice arrived safe and sound. I will not say whats the right or wrong thing to do with the mice but I will say if It was me I would be keeping f1 and possibly f2 baby's that come from my adults to start up the safety net in case you loose any and then think about letting them go no point arguing over how you spread them out as long as the genes are kept safe and as pure as you can and they do get spread out in time. The most importing thing at the moment is keeping them pure if at all possible and breed them before they get ill or old. Remember mice do not live long and can come down with sickness over night!


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## Bella

Guys, this is getting old.

Can't we just go back to being excited that these beautiful mice are here? Lets just be happy and proud of this accomplishment, and worry about ourselves and our own stock.


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## Jack Garcia

mouselover01 said:


> Jack, I already asked you about what you require/expect/policies in this thread and you brushd it off as a joke.


No, actually, I didn't. I said you can drive to my house for the cinnamons. They're not under contract. Where do you live? I live in Louisville, KY.

For some (but not all) other mice I require a five generation hold on all mice and a signed contract stating that they will receive proper care and husbandry. This is in-line with other professional exhibition mouse breeders in California and on the east coast.

I only keep three varieties (red/cinnamon, extreme black/Siamese, and chinchilla) these days because I'm in graduate school, plus working nearly full time.


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## mouselover01

Ah, I drove right past you at the end of March.

I'd probably have to do it on the weekend but sure, picking up at your house is no problem for me. Maybe in the next couple weeks? I just want to recharge after just coming back from MD lol

Do you have any other available mice without any contracts/holds?

I have no problem with proper care clause, etc etc, and most of my mice I don't sell for generations but I'd PREFER not be strapped to a 5 generation rule so I'd prefer to go with mice that do not have that clause but may consider it.

PM me


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## Jack Garcia

Done!


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## Rhasputin

In the end, I don't care who charges, and who doesn't charge. Everyone can do what they need to do. My F1s aren't going anywhere most likely, because I need them here as an investment into the future breeding of the lines. If I were to sell most of them, then I'd likely run out of genes very quickly.

WHATEVER GUYS! WE ALL GOT NICE, LOVELY MICE AND WE DID IT TOGETHER! 
Isn't that the point?


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## ekimsivad

> "WHATEVER GUYS! WE ALL GOT NICE, LOVELY MICE AND WE DID IT TOGETHER!
> Isn't that the point?"


Well said


----------



## moustress

tinyhartmouseries said:


> sys15, I have to admit to being confused about what you are implying the ideal breeder would do. If someone told me they would take a pair of my mice and perform vivisections on all the young, wouldn't I have the right to say, uh! no! I don't want to be helping you perpetuate that! I mean, they are my mice, most of whom I've got 7-10 gens on, I do feel I have the right to ensure them, as much as possible, a comfortable and happy life. I just don't understand how that makes me wrong? I am not even against someone mixing varieties or breeding for tiny ears. I just want to make sure there isn't mistreatment or cruelty involved, and I am well within my rights to do everything I can to prevent that!
> 
> thm: You echo exactly the sort of thing I meant by talking about 'good breeders'. I'm not concerned about the genes being conserved, just that the mousies are treated humanely and not subjected to unclean, unsafe, unhealthy conditions. While it would be a dang shame to see fabulous meeces fed to snakes, it happens all the time with those who breed both snakes and mousies, and that's OK, as long as the meeces are euthanizied humanely. We often produce so many more babies than we can take care of, and it's silly seeing them go to waste.


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## Laigaie

I've walked away from the thread in general, but wanted to update everyone here on the mice that are still at my house (since I brought mice out West for folks). Everyone is alive and perfectly healthy. The does are getting along beautifully in a new 20G tank, except the two black tan does, who are hanging out very happily with the black tan buck in a 10G. The other two bucks are also chilling in their 10Gs. I know one of these shipping containers is almost definitely going to California, with sys15's mice both from this shipment and also from loves2read. There are so many mice in my bedroom. Loves2read has kindly sent a truly massive number of mice out to the folks here in the midwest and also to sys15, and they're all doing quite well, too. Those are all in the groups they came in, and they're quite lovely, too. I've used the tiny water bottles from the crates to attach to the Sterilites that loves2read sent her mice in.

The drop-off in OKC for Irisheaglesone and Tinyhartmouseries is on Memorial Day, and I suppose Bella and I will have to arrange a date to meet up, as well. You'd certainly be welcome to come up here, as I won't be going through Conway again until probably the end of the month, at the absolute earliest. Sys15 and I now have the task of arranging the shipping of his mice out to Cali, either from Little Rock, Northwest Arkansas, Tulsa, or OKC, depending on what works best. I'll try to get photos of all the mice I have for other folks, and send those out, both of the British mice and of the mice from Nicole. It looks like candycorn went with Weasley names for the reds and Kings and Queens for the tans. I think I'll go with counties and cities of the UK for my tans. I haven't named them yet, though.


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## candycorn

Laigaie - stick me on the list for those beautiful champaine tans! They keep making me drool!


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## Laigaie

UPDATE:

Found mites on one of the British mice while taking photos. All here will be treated today, and not released until I see no mites. Everyone check, and please report back. No point in saying which variety, since the shipping company took no mind to my grouping instructions, and mice were all in willy-nilly. Honestly, it wouldn't hurt much for everyone to treat them all, just in case.


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## Cait

Laigaie said:


> No point in saying which variety, since the shipping company took no mind to my grouping instructions, and mice were all in willy-nilly.


I'm annoyed about that, since Dave explained to me when he returned about specifically keeping them all in the groups they came in, plus you telling Airpets too. I would send them a complaint letter - after all, it has been said that all the bucks were in together and that could easily have spelled disaster. I suppose it's better than bucks and does of different varieties being together, but still...


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## mouselover01

Are we 100% certain that the mites came from the origional shipment or is it possible that the mites came from somewhere that you stopped at or got mice from along the way home?

Are you contacting the breeder who supplied you with that variety to let them know that they have mites in their colony?

Luckily, mine are all clear as far as I can tell.

Either way, my mice were treated last week and were treated last night when I got home as a precaution.


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## Cait

Since the mice were vet checked before they left the UK and presumably no problems found or they couldn't have been cleared to fly, it's possible that the mites came from any bedding used in the crate I suppose. Unfortunately that means all the mice could have mites, so a treatment as a precaution wouldn't hurt.


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## Laigaie

The mice went directly from the airport to the car and didn't get out until they got home. 20hrs later, they were put into tanks and I got to sleep. Since the mice from Nicole didn't have mites when I went and checked every single mouse in my house today, I highly doubt that was our contamination. The vet was the AirPets vet, who isn't used to mice, so who knows? They don't do rodents, generally, but reptiles, cats, dogs, birds, etc. But, really, no way to know. And it doesn't hurt to treat anyway.


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## love2read

Nope, no mites here, thank God! I do regular Ivermectin treatments as a prevention anyways though.

I didn't see any mites on my boy when I checked yesterday, but I'll doublecheck when I get home. I did notice, however, that his eyes seem a bit watery. He's missing a frenzied bit of fur around his eyes, but I thought it was probably an irritation from the Aspen since breeders in the UK don't seem to use Aspen like we here in the US do.


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## sys15

Jack Garcia said:


> sys15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> culling, i would argue, has a more severe and detrimental impact on the long-term health and welfare of the female than does being repeatedly bred.
> 
> 
> 
> I love your sense of humor.
Click to expand...

i'm glad you are posting again. this board is more interesting and informative when you are around.


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## sys15

Stina said:


> btw, you ARE telling me to do with my mice by basically saying I shouldn't ask anything of the people I give them to.


i'm not, but i understand why you might think i was. i advocated my own position, i did not intend it to be a prescription for you.

i enjoy discussing these issues with you, i'm sorry you take some of my comments personally. i have pretty thick internet skin and it is easy for me to forget that not everyone does.


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## Shadowrunner

I haven't checked mine yet, as I'm out and about but I'll check and report back ASAP.

I'm so happy guys.
I mean really. After the house burned down I was ready to just quit and never have a pet again much less breed mice.
Now I have these gorgeous blacks and the black tans to start over with in addition to the lovelies I got from Cindy and Tara.
I just, I could cry I'm so glad. 
The people in this hobby are amazing, and this is so cool.
I mean some of us have the very first genes of their kind on this side of the world. How cool is that?
I mean think about it for a minute.
How many mice are here now?
Wilds included. But you have one of the few anywhere withing what? 5,000 miles like that. 
That's amazing.


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## SarahC

Laigaie said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Found mites on one of the British mice while taking photos. All here will be treated today, and not released until I see no mites. Everyone check, and please report back. No point in saying which variety, since the shipping company took no mind to my grouping instructions, and mice were all in willy-nilly. Honestly, it wouldn't hurt much for everyone to treat them all, just in case.


The cham tans were frontlined the day before travel as a precaution of travelling with mixed animals .Just so you are aware that any treatment you give will be a double dose type of thing.


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## Jack Garcia

sys15 said:


> Jack Garcia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sys15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> culling, i would argue, has a more severe and detrimental impact on the long-term health and welfare of the female than does being repeatedly bred.
> 
> 
> 
> I love your sense of humor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i'm glad you are posting again. this board is more interesting and informative when you are around.
Click to expand...

Thank you! That is very kind. I agree with your assessment.

I have just come off my first year of graduate school, so I have some free time right now and a friend directed me here. The craziness picks up again soon so I'm afraid I won't be able to stick around. If anybody needs me, just pray and I will hear you.

(In case it's not abundantly clear, with the above statement I'm poking fun of myself. )


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## laoshu

The Abyssinian's I sent out have not been treated for lice/mites for a couple of weeks but I am up to date with treating mine regular so they should of been clear. I have never seen lice on mine only on ones I have brought in which are treated as a mater of coarse.


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## Stina

I can't imagine the vets would have missed mites...they may not be too familiar with mice....but...they HAVE to be familiar with external parasites.......


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## Bella

SarahC said:


> The cham tans were frontlined the day before travel as a precaution of travelling with mixed animals .Just so you are aware that any treatment you give will be a double dose type of thing.


I have to ask about this, simply because I've not heard it before! How exactly do you use frontline on a mouse? Is it still used as a topical? How do you determine how much to give? I'd imagine you use the smallest dosage you can find, and then just do a single drop from a dropper? Please tell.


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## SarahC

I use the (dog) spray as it comes,put several mice in a tub and lightly spray,simple,effective ,never had a fatality.I don't spray babies in the nest just make sure the adults are coated enough for some to rub off on the young


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## Shadowrunner

That is a fantastic idea. 
Mine appear to not have any parasites at all. Which is good.
So then where would it have come rom? The bedding in a new cage?


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## Alex

Hello! I've been reading this thread for many months. I live in Ireland and I don't currently own mice. Obviously I wasn't involved at all in the massively complicated maneuvers involved in importing new genes to the American mouse Fancy. Why did I read this thread so often? The reason was that the enthusiasm and dedication of the people posting was infectious. I became more and more exited to hear what people, who had obviously invested significant time,thought and money (and in some cases domestic diplomacy) in the scheme thought of their new mice. I wanted to hear people who were delighted at their new mice, who thought these new mice were worth the investment and the wait.
However, what I read was a few people who carried out an argument in public - whilst the arguments have validity, and nobody should ever be criticised for an ethical stance, surely this ought to have been carried out via private messages.
I'm disappointed.
I really REALLY wanted to share in the excitement that people experience when they have new animals, especially ones that were very hard won.
I hope that this thread can get back to where it was, and spread enthusiasm and happiness from simply having new animals which will (I hope) help those in the Fancy in America do incredible things with them!
Squabbles in a small animal Fancy are, by their very essence, internecine. In my opinion, there is no call for them.

Just my view as a disappointed person who wanted to hear some good news and happiness...


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## Laigaie

I'm terribly sorry if our discussion upset you. However, I would like to know, logistically, how to have had such a discussion over pms. While you can pm multiple people, because of the way they work, it quickly becomes several people talking to one person, which cannot feel like anything but an attack. In public, it's still easy to take things personally, but when these things impact a group of 12-18 people, and the majority of those are engaged in the discussion, I simple do not see how pms would have been feasible. I understand that the inner workings of a foreign fancy can be upsetting, because we want to believe that things elsewhere are always awesome. Nobody's perfect, and I'm also sad to see that the discussion devolved so quickly. That's why I walked away, as did the majority of the folks involved. Since you're not actually a part of a fancy, maybe you don't understand yet. Anywhere you go, there will always be friction between folks. Over time, people who attract more friction than others will go elsewhere, if the group as a whole can maintain its calm. If you want all good news all the time, look at pictures of ponies, maybe. Or kittens. Those always cheer me up, personally. Humans are too dramatic.


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## tinyhartmouseries

It's a little funny! It seems like the last couple pages saw the issues mostly resolved.


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## moustress

Us Yankees are a contentious lot, but we usually settle down pretty quick as soon as it's obvious there's nothing to squabble over. But when it comes to a real fight...lookout!

It's like the bad feelings towards the Brits in the revolution. We were fine when we got what we wanted; the Brits had their slow revenge in the invasive species they left us.

BTW, I don't think I ever said a hearty thank you to the Brits for giving us dandelions.


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## Laigaie

AND ANOTHER UPDATE:

Just checked in with Anne Tomkins, the breeder of our reds. She let me know that the trios had been together for a full week before they were brought to the show. So! If your red doe starts to look pudgy, be aware! There's a not-bad chance she's already pregnant (and due in as little as a week or two)! I'll be keeping an eye on the red does here (Kirk's and Emma's), and let you guys know if I start to see round bellies.


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## tinyhartmouseries

oh wow! I suppose you can bring me a whole maternity tank if she's had them before we meet. I'd pay you.


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## Laigaie

It looks like, if the weather at DFW (Dallas-Fort Worth Airport) stays as forecasted or cooler, we'll be able to ship Kirk his mice today! I'm sure the other does will miss them (certainly the black tan does will miss their buck!), but I can imagine Kirk just cannot wait to see his new stock.


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## sys15

ray

wish it was a couple of degrees cooler in dfw. they wouldn't actually return them instead of sending them on if they accept them at xna and then get to dfw and it's 86, would they?


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## Cait

Are these your mice sys15? Fingers crossed the weather plays nicely for you!


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## Laigaie

Unfortunately, that is exactly what they'd do. We can probably have them held in an animal lounge for a few hours until the next flight, though, if I warn the folks at the airport that there's a small chance it could happen.


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## Cait

Can you not send them on a night flight to avoid high temperatures?


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## Laigaie

Past a certain hour, there aren't cargo flights going the direction we want. They already don't take off 'till 6pm.


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## Cait

Typical :roll:


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## sys15

MouseBreeder said:


> Are these your mice sys15? Fingers crossed the weather plays nicely for you!


yes, some of them coming from you, as i understand it.

i really hope they don't decide to hold them. i don't think there is another flight my way until 11 am tomorrow, which would put their arrival in california in the early PM, by which time the temps will likely be over 85 here.

not to mention, i'll be out of town for work tomorrow.


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## Laigaie

They said if there are any problems they'll call us, and that they can probably shave a few degrees for us by spending the layover indoors. Mice will be on the plane and in the air in less than an hour! The folks at the airport were baffled! Tried to send me with the wild mouse that runs under their desks. :/


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## Bella

Were you at LR airport?


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## sys15

Laigaie said:


> They said if there are any problems they'll call us, and that *they can probably shave a few degrees for us by spending the layover indoors.* Mice will be on the plane and in the air in less than an hour! The folks at the airport were baffled! Tried to send me with the wild mouse that runs under their desks. :/


*a triumph of reason over regulation!*

lol @ the wild mouse.


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## Laigaie

Bella: No, but if I were, I'd've called you! I was at XNA.


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## mouselover01

What airline are you using?

I've never had problems shipping live animals via Continential Airlines.

I've had a shipment sent to Arizona in June (and if anyone knows about that, it can be about 90 at night).

I also shipped at the end of January from AZ to NY (it was about 30 outside).

I don't recall having any issues because they have climate control the whole way through from where they are dropped off, to transportation to the plane, to the plane, and the same arriving.

*shrug*


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## Laigaie

It's not actually legal to ship live animals if it's going to be above 85F, unless you have a vet certificate stating that they're "acclimated". We're using American Eagle (a division of American Airlines), but the same holds true for any live animal cargo. Honestly, I appreciate the guideline, as it's supposed to stop animals from suffering terribly if they end up stuck on the tarmac.


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## sys15

Laigaie said:


> It's not actually legal to ship live animals if it's going to be above 85F, unless you have a vet certificate stating that they're "acclimated". We're using American Eagle (a division of American Airlines), but the same holds true for any live animal cargo. Honestly, I appreciate the guideline, as it's supposed to stop animals from suffering terribly if they end up stuck on the tarmac.


i think it just applies to endotherms, not all animals.

it is a probably a good guideline. but like any guideline how it is applied makes all the difference. if they were to refuse the shipment at xna, fine. if they were to accept the shipment, but make sure the package was indoors while at dfw, fantastic. above and beyond the call of duty. if they were to accept the shipment but then return or delay it when it was a degree over forecast at dfw, that's a semi-disaster for the shipper/receiver and does the mice more harm than just continuing on their route.


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## mouselover01

Oh. Well with the pet safe program through continential, I don't think that's a fear. They take very good care of their animals and I know breeders who have shipped sugar gliders (exotics... delicate exotics) through continential airlines for the past 20 years with no problems, so I suppose they are doing something right. *shrug*
How much did that shipping cost for the one crate of mice through that particular airline?


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## love2read

I've shipped sugar gliders many times with Continental Airlines and would never use any other airline. They keep the animals in a temperature-controlled environment at all times. Critters are the last thing to go ON the plane and the first thing to come OFF the plane.


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## mouselover01

Ditto. I love continential! . They were always so great with my gliders! I called american airlines and asked about what happens if an animal passes away during transit and they said "oh well, we look into it. But don't worry, we take care of our customers".

Continential was very straight forward. I <3 them lmao


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## sys15

the new united claims to have adopted the continental petsafe practices, but i wouldn't be sure you will receive identical service until you've actually tried it on a formerly united route.


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## mouselover01

sys, how much did it cost to ship through them?


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## sys15

mouselover01 said:


> sys, how much did it cost to ship through them?


laigaie could answer more precisely. american estimated the cost at $203, but i don't know what they actually ended up charging.


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## Stina

That sounds about right.......it was a little under $200 when I had rats shipped here from California last year....and I know costs have gone up a bit.


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## mouselover01

Yeah, that sounds right for what continential airlines would be when I called them a couple months ago. It was like, $165.00 for the airline ticket, plus taxes, fees, and fuel charges, plus crate cost, gas for the person driving. It comes right around $200

I thought when I called American Airlines a couple months ago, they quoted me $250 plus taxes fees and fuel charges, plus crate fees,etc. they may have adapted continential airline's prices when they switched over.

I vaguely remember hearing something like that.


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## Stina

We had a crate when the rats were shipped....not sure what they charge for crates.


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## mouselover01

When I shipped gliders, I shipped them in a KK inside a small dog/cat carrier.

Or you can use the taconic crates.


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## Stina

We used a taconic crate that one of the Cali people had (and then mailed it back). Sometimes you can find them at reptile shows


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## sys15

the mice made it in. a little delayed, but no worse for wear. all very impressive animals.


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## Pamplemousse

You guys are utterly incredible. I'm very proud to be in the UK right now!


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## moustress

I'm so glad they made it safely; I literally lay awake for while last night for worrying...


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## Shadowrunner

Same and also I used continental. When I shipped my wolfdog puppy in.
300$ but he was healthy and happy.

ANd congrads sys15
Impressive is ..yes I would agree xD


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## SarahC

It's regrettable that there have been issues between some members over this achievement.As far as FMB's is concerned though it's a private matter between the people involved,we are only here to enforce forum rules not outside events.I would have trusted all of the longtime users on here and hope it's a misunderstanding that can be resolved asap between the parties.


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## Laigaie

Emma's mouse (a Red) goes to its home today! I'm hoping that the last two after that will be at their homes by the end of the week. Personal issues appear to be resolved, and all is again well. Funny how quickly all that turns around.


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## spitfire

So how are the blacks doing? Adapted well I hope


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## mouselover01

I have one of the blacks and she's doing very well. She's so beautiful, I can't stop looking at her!


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## spitfire

Fantastic! Glad to hear it


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## Bella

I absolutely love my black tan. She's starting to show a bit of a pudgy tummy and I'm crossing my fingers that she was bred before she got to me.


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## Laigaie

Oh, good! I tried to send you the bellifulliest of the two that were here, if that makes any sense.


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## Shadowrunner

Mine are doing wonderfully spitfire. They look like they are made from obsidian <3
Super shiny and jet black.

I can't stop looking at them either.

The black tans are doing great as well.

I put one of my typier blues in with the black male, she's starting to show now <3
So exciting.


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## spitfire

I'm so glad they are doing well. I had a few concerns over how well they would take to being shipped over. Hi Shadowrunner. If you want to know any history of the line or common faults, just pm me.


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## Shadowrunner

Do you ave the PMs disabled? 
I tried to reply to one you sent me but it wouldn't go through.

Everyone who sees them think they are just gorgeous.


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## spitfire

No my pm's work fine ( I think ). Oh well, aslong as you got the messages  good luck with them


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## BlackCat99

Glad to see it worked out


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## love2read

SQUEE!!! It looks like my Red boy finally got a couple of his ladyfriends knocked up! XD

I was starting to get worried that he might be sterile since I read they can be sterile sometimes. Phew!

I'm so excited!!!!!!!


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## pro-petz

I use to import a few years back and I still deal with people who import livestock regularly into the UK and export around the world.

Firstly the main airline that actually treats animal shipments the best to date has been quantas and having the best rates.

Airfreight 2000 was the middle firm sort of thing that handled the shipments through customs if they are still trading.

Not sure re vet certification whether or not each animal may need to be micro chipped and undergo a certain period of quarantine at both ends which can normally be done in respective owners homes if they comply with the regulations set out as in not attending any place that houses livestock for the period of time set.

Samples of droppings from each animal is definately required, from the UK animals can only be shipped from certain airports which have the facilities I know heathrow and Manchester for certain unsure of others as I have met people from scotland collecting livestock from Manchester whether that is due to no facilities in the airports of Scotland or for financial reasons.

I will make additional enquiries over the weekend to someone who still imports and exports reptiles and other livestock to see what the procedure is, I do know that shipping costs have certainly gone up since I last did this this type of thing myself personally from like £25 to over £60 for a box of tropical fish import cost


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## Mousegirl81

Do you import anything into the USA ?


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## Splash of Satin

Wish i had been on this forum several years ago! would love to have the chance to import mice from Europe! Could anyone explain the process they went through to import their mice from Europe if you have had any? I'm curious as to how one imports such small animals over such a large distance...


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## moustress

Read the thread. It's all there, I think.


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## BlackSelf

I would LOVE importing from EU. If only mony grew on trees!!


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